The Redeemed Backslider
“Welcome to The Redeemed Backslider—with your host, Kathy Chastain, Christian-based psychotherapist and a redeemed backslider. This podcast dedicated to those who have wandered but are ready to return to the life-changing power of grace and the freedom found in Jesus.
In Luke 4:18, Jesus proclaimed: ‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because He has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed.’
This is the heart of our message. Whether you’re wrestling with regret, despair, seeking freedom from spiritual chains, or longing to see the light of God’s love again, you’re not alone. Here, we share testimonies, biblical truths, and encouragement to remind you that no one is too far gone for God’s redemption.
This is your invitation to find healing, hope, and restoration in Jesus. Welcome to The Redeemed Backslider—where grace is greater than your past and your future is abundant when God redeems your story.”
The Redeemed Backslider
Fear & Distrust with Kelly Ventura TRB#20 Part 2
What happens when our deepest wounds collide with our deepest spiritual longings? This soul-stirring conversation between Kathy Chastain and Kelly Ventura delves into the profound connection between childhood attachment wounds and our ability to trust God.
The wounds of abandonment and rejection don't just affect our human relationships—they fundamentally alter how we perceive and approach God. Through personal stories and therapeutic insights, Kathy and Kelly unpack how these core wounds manifest as fear, perfectionism, and the constant feeling of not being enough. When someone grows up with unavailable caregivers or experiences criticism and exclusion, their internal framework for understanding love becomes distorted. God becomes seen as distant, punitive, or untrustworthy rather than the loving Father described in scripture.
What makes this episode particularly powerful is its honesty about the challenges of vulnerability. Kelly shares how imposter syndrome affects even ministry leaders, while Kathy reveals a moment when she desperately needed God to show up and feared losing her faith entirely. Their candid admissions create space for listeners to acknowledge their own struggles without shame. The discussion offers practical first steps for anyone hesitant to trust again—finding a private space, starting with just five minutes of focused prayer, and recognizing that God meets us exactly where we are.
Follow us on Insta & Facebook: The Redeemed Backslider
Partner with us : https://www.theredeemedbackslider.org
Kathy has two books out and they can be found on Amazon or Barnes & Noble online:
Redeem California, With God it IS Possible:
God of the Impossible: 30-Prayers for the Redemption and Restoration of California
Welcome to the Redeemed Backslider with your host, kathy Chastain. Christian-based psychotherapist and Redeemed Backslider. This podcast is dedicated to those who have wandered but are ready to return to the life-changing power of grace and the freedom found in Jesus.
Speaker 2:Hi, welcome to the Redeemed Backslider. I'm your host, kathy Chastain. I'm a Christian-based psychotherapist and I'm a Redeemed Backslider. With me today in the studio is my colleague, kelly Ventura, who is a pastoral counselor and coach, and we're going to pick up where we left off in episode one about the loss of innocence, healing the whole person.
Speaker 2:But before we do, I just want to say to everybody that watches thank you for watching and going through the analytics, it looks like 46% of you guys have not subscribed. So you probably hear this. If you watch YouTube very often, if you subscribe and like our videos, it actually distributes it more into the whole YouTube world, which allows us to reach more viewers, which allows us to hopefully reach more backsliders. So if you are a returning listener, if you could please like and subscribe our channel, that would help us a lot, but mostly it will help the kingdom of the Lord if we can reach the backsliders. So with that, we're going to just jump right in and we're going to pick up where we left off. Last week, we talked about the whole person and the different types of attachment that exist in all of our lives and how that could potentially affect our walk with God, and so we're going to recap for you today. Kelly, you want to recap what it means to be the whole person.
Speaker 3:Sure, well, we talked about bringing our whole and let me just say too. So if you're watching, we were talking about this before we came on the podcast If you are watching, you notice I have a black shirt on. It is not the same black shirt. It has been several days, in fact. It is a Saturday now. So if you're watching, you'll see that I have actual, you know like a little five o'clock shadow here.
Speaker 2:Watching, you'll see that I have actual, you know like a little five o'clock shadow here, so it is Saturday morning. I asked him when he came in hey, did you wear a black shirt last week?
Speaker 3:And I did, and I you know, if you look at my closet I have. You know, the color palette in my closet is of a 19th century melodrama villain. So it's pretty much black is all that I have. So, anyway, black and t-shirts. My wife loves it.
Speaker 2:So I made him self-conscious because he had black on again. So now I'm self-conscious.
Speaker 3:Now I'm completely thrown out of the podcast. Sorry, but no, bringing your whole person to God body, soul, mind and spirit and we were talking specifically in terms of salvation when we talked about you know, god, you know, fills our spirit, saves our soul. But we bring our whole entire person, body, also to God as well. And, you know, bringing these things to God. We have to understand that, even though we are quote-unquote saved right, or even though we are quote unquote saved right, or even if we are in a position where we feel like we've stepped away from our faith or fallen away from our faith, or however you want to term it, we still realize that we have these. God has to realize that we have these struggles right In our mind, in our body, in our spirits. That even though and one of the amazing things for me is that, even though we have these struggles we body, soul, mind and spirit we have these things. Whether it's been wounds from attachments or whatever the case might be, god's love is still pure to us.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:And he loves us as the whole person. But then then we started talking about uh, last time about attachments also, do you want to kind of recap kind of the different attachments?
Speaker 2:yeah. So, um, you know, when we're, when we come into this world, we are created perfect. You know we are an innocent, clean slate, that nothing is written on us except generational bloodlines which we'll get in later. But we come into this world as a clean slate and so we are partly formed by nature or nurture nature being our biology, what we brought in from our parents, right, and then also nurture, which is our environment that we are molded in. And that's where attachment kind of comes into play. If we have a wonderful loving home with attentive parents, intentional parents, then we have secure attachment. We grow up feeling secure. We have a ton of ability to have resilience in distress. We easily can manage emotions because we have a secure base.
Speaker 2:Then we have avoidant attachment, anxious attachment and disorganized attachment, and all of those are rooted in the different kind of environments that we're molded in, right. So disorganized is when parents are both loving and abusive and the child gets very confused by that. And the child gets very confused by that. Avoidant often comes from when there's been emotional neglect and physical neglect. Your just needs as an infant and toddler are not getting met at all. So there's no way to attach emotionally or to feel safe and secure because the rest of your needs aren't getting met.
Speaker 2:And then there's anxious attachment, and anxious attachment often comes from abandonment, where a caregiver or parent has left, not been available emotionally, or there's been divorce or even a death emotionally, or there's been divorce or even a death, and so all of these ways that our parents or caregiver interacted it could even be a grandparent really has an effect on us as a whole person. And so with that we're going to talk about how those attachment styles, how they sort of funnel down into two basic wounds and I would say, from a mental health perspective, most diagnoses can be rooted in these two wounds. Kelly, what would you say those are?
Speaker 3:I would say abandonment and rejection. And I think that when we talk about abandonment, I think that when people have that wound, I think that when they come to church or when they're in church or they're exposed to church, I think that they see everyone around them, they feel the presence of God, they feel all these wonderful things. But for some reason sometimes it's kind of like if I have that wound of abandonment, is my church family going to leave me too? Are they going to give up on me too? If I'm not perfect, you know, are you know? Is god going to give up on me?
Speaker 3:right, you know everyone else left me. It's not a question, you know, sometimes in their minds, right, it's not a question of, uh, if they leave me, right, it's, when will they leave me? And I think rejection comes in, especially too, in the church. I think it comes in when people assume or they think, you know, am I good enough? And again, it's not a when, it's an, if it's, you know, when I am rejected, you know it's going to be inevitable right.
Speaker 3:It doesn't leave, you know, it doesn't leave space for grace, it doesn't leave space for any of those kinds of things in your life. But people kind of have those thoughts that kind of prevent them sometimes from connecting with God, connecting with others, and yeah, that kind of is some of the things that I've seen, yeah, right.
Speaker 2:So I want to just sort of talk about where some of this can come from. So I hear, you know, in the counseling practice a lot of people will say, well, I had a good childhood. You know, I don't really remember anything too bad. I mean, clearly, if there's overt abuse, people will remember that. But a lot of people grow up in households where divorce occurred but they'll say something like, oh, I don't really remember. Or I know my parents fought a lot, but I don't really remember, or whatever. You know and we talked about this last time divorce.
Speaker 2:I think divorce is a hugely underestimated trauma that kids go through. And if 51% of America are divorced and 51% of marriages have ended in divorce, there is often an abandonment wound and or a rejection wound, and I've seen both. And so abandonment occurs when there is through experience or perception, and perception is huge because, you know, I tell this example all the time I can say that this wall is green, but you know, the person sitting across from me can say that this wall is stage or olive green. And so the way we see things and the way we perceive things and the the you know semantics that we use to discuss this can all create tons of miscommunication and confusion, and so perception is huge, and so it is the real life experience or perception of being left behind emotionally or physically by someone who was expected to love you, right. Right, because what that leaves is the feeling that I'm not loved, Right.
Speaker 1:Or I don't matter Right.
Speaker 2:Right, and so the core experience could be feeling alone, feeling forgotten or discarded, which creates a fear of being left again. Hyper-vigilance in relationships that often manifest as clinginess, codependency, emotional withdrawal to protect against loss. So that's that person who, when they get a boyfriend or they get a girlfriend, they break up first. They're going to break up with you before you can break up with me.
Speaker 2:But the root cause is loss of a caregiver through death, divorce, incarceration, addiction and I would say incarceration is a big deal, especially in our area because of the area that we live in but also addiction. Addiction is rampant, Even in the church. Addiction is rampant and when a person comes from a home like that, the caregiver might be present physically, but they're not present really in any other ways, and so some symptoms of abandonment can be fear of intimacy, and that is huge. Right, Like I'll get close to you, but only so far. You want to talk about that, Kelly?
Speaker 3:Yeah, no. And I think what happens too is that fear of abandonment kind of drives an internal monologue inside of us. Sometimes it says you know, if I'm perfect, then they won't leave me. And I think it kind of creates this desire inside of people to overcommit, to overdo it, to stress, especially in the church, to stress you know, I'm going to be perfect, I'm going to do all of these things, nevermind, it's not tearing my family apart, but you know I'm being pulled away from my family, being pulled away from my family apart, but I'm being pulled away from my family, being pulled away from my loved ones. But I'm going to overcommit because I've got to be perfect, right, because if I'm perfect, other people are going to love me and if I'm perfect, then God's going to love me.
Speaker 2:Right, right, perfectionism shows that, both in abandonment and rejection, and it's huge and that's rude and shame. And, like we said last time, all that is so interconnected. We're going to get to shame in our next episode, because what I want to sort of help people understand and convey is how all of this is affecting our mind, our emotions. This is affecting our mind, our emotions, our physical flesh and our spirit. Right, because most of what happens in childhood is felt, it is experienced, and based on that experience, I'm going to have an instinctive reaction on that experience. I'm going to have an instinctive reaction.
Speaker 2:So for me and this shows up here this is where we get into fight, flight or freeze. So for me, I was more rebellious when I got hurt or people left or my needs didn't get met. I fought back right. Other people they freeze or they fight or they leave. But when they freeze they become super passive. Often those people are rule followers. Often those people are people pleasers. People are rule followers. Often those people are people pleasers because they're just trying to do whatever they can do to get back to a decent place of connectedness. And often those thoughts in our minds which has formed belief systems, no one's sitting here thinking, oh, I'm acting this way because of my childhood.
Speaker 3:They're just very subconsciously responding. Yeah, no, that's very true, and I think that that panic sometimes and fear creates us or causes us rather to kind of go into that paralysis, analysis or analysis, paralysis. Right, we're so in our head sometimes that we can't make that next move, and so we just do that freeze maneuver and we kind of become passive, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, so. So what you know? So abandonment, do a face. I think I said common symptoms, bear of intimacy, being alone, anxiety, distrust, over-functioning, trying to earn love which I think is what you were saying, kelly, um, and and a feeling of panic or despair when somebody leaves or someone that they value or want. Right, we're going to get into the faith based piece in a second, but let's go through the rejection wound because I think we're going to break down how both of these lead to a very fear based response system. Right, okay, so fear. Right Okay, so fear. So rejection, let's see, hold on, sorry, let me look at my note.
Speaker 2:Rejection wound is the emotional pain resulting from being excluded, unwanted or judged as unworthy, whether overtly through bullying or betrayal, or subtly through a lack of affirmation or a lack of or a hyper sense of criticism. So if, let's, you're the kid that grows up and I've seen this and it's devastating how much bullying affects a whole person throughout their entire life they could have a secure home, attachment, wonderful parents, but they go to kindergarten and they get bullied because they have red hair, or they're just a little bit chubby, or maybe they're a little skinny, or maybe the girl is just too tall in elementary school, or maybe the girl begins to develop prematurely, before the rest of her classmates do, or whatever. The boy has facial hair too early, or the boy is too short, like there's so many reasons that kids get bullied. That creates a rejection wound, which creates an identity crisis, and so um, yeah, so rejection, um, has its own fallout, but, um, but that idea of being unwanted, that could even come in the womb.
Speaker 2:And I've seen this where parents have wanted to abort their child and then chose at the last minute to keep the child. Somehow that parent mistakenly, wrongly, communicates that to the kiddo. Right, and even though they know the parent loves them, in their mind they still have this underlying belief yeah, but they didn't want me, and so that question always exists. Or you have the kid I've seen this, too, where you have a sibling that gets straight A's and is the athlete, and the other sibling doesn't get very good grades and is not the athlete, but they're really creative and very expressive, and so comparison, or you have the parental figure that's hypercritical, like all of these things and so many more that we don't have time to discuss creates rejection. So, kelly, how does that, how does all of that really create a fear, and what areas? If we look at interpersonal relationship, social relationship and work relationships, if we're just looking at those basics, how do you think this stuff shows up in fear for those people interacting in life?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that feeling unwanted and having that feeling inside of you, I think that is one of, in my opinion, one of the major drivers of imposter syndrome.
Speaker 2:Can you elaborate on imposter syndrome? I think people may be familiar, but elaborate on that.
Speaker 3:Right, it's just this feeling of I don't have what it takes to be here, and pretty soon somebody's going to figure that out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like calling you know we used to say that out. Yeah, like uh calling you know we used to say calling BS on somebody, exactly yeah.
Speaker 3:But it's this, it's this, uh, it's this fear that has been imposed on us, that, for whatever reason, because we're unwanted, that, um, you know, I'm unwanted in this position. Whatever it might be, I might be a CEO, I might be a CFO, I might well, let's just talk about being a preacher yeah, I'm.
Speaker 3:It happens in in ministry as well. You know, uh, if you're a minute in ministry and you may have had that in your past, you know god helps us and and prayer is something that um can help us connect to god's divine plan and god's divine love for us, and we understand all that. But sometimes there's that stuff that kind of just comes up and sometimes having that imposter syndrome in ministry is kind of like here's what it is in ministry. It's like I don't have what it takes to be here, or for whatever reason, because of my background, I should not be here, you know. Or I, for whatever reason, because of my background, my background, I should not be here. And all of those things are untrue but they are, in a spiritual sense, in a positive spin on it, they are true as well.
Speaker 2:Right, no, you don't. I love that.
Speaker 3:You don't have what it takes to be here because of God's grace. Right, you are here and you know Paul says, you know, nothing's going to separate us from the love of God. You know the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. So once you're there, you're there and God has given you that gift, right? And so sometimes they feel like you know, like somebody's going to figure out that I don't have. Somebody's going to figure out that you have a story, a background. Somebody's going to figure out that, yes, you have a we call them testimonies right, you have a reason for why God has you have a story and that has driven you to where you are now, put you where you are now and put you where you are now. So sometimes we look at imposter syndrome in ministry as a bad thing, and I guess it can be if we kind of let it take us down a negative path, right. But I say, flip it on its head sometimes and go. No, you're right, I don't have what it takes to be here, except by God's grace.
Speaker 3:That's why I'm here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I love what you said, because sometimes two things can be true at the same time. Right, and I think that we don't always stop to realize that I can be. You know, I flunked out of high school, that is true. My little GED hangs on my wall with my master's degree because I'm such a late bloomer. But I never forget where I've been, you know, and so it is. Both of those things can be true. I did flunk out of high school totally.
Speaker 3:I barely passed high school, but I also, you know, fixed it but.
Speaker 2:I also, you know, fixed it. And so I remember when I was in the fitness industry for many years, before I changed careers, and my girlfriend worked for one of the cosmetic surgeons here and she says, hey, so-and-so needs a personal trainer. You know, I told him about you, he wants you to train him. And I was like that imposter syndrome just completely hit me, because I had certificates to do what I was doing and I knew what I was doing but I couldn't tell you anatomy, because at that time I hadn't even been to college. I couldn't tell you what bones were connected to this and what muscle was connected to this. And I was terrified. I'm like I'm going to be in a surgeon's home training them. And what if he asks me which abdominal muscle are we working? Right now I would not be able to tell him.
Speaker 3:You don't know, I mean.
Speaker 2:I knew the basics but I didn't know the intricacies Right. And I remember I just thought, you know cause, believe it or not, I still, I still prayed and talked to God. I'm like, well, I'm going to show up, I'm going to say, yes, I'm going to show up and I'm just going to be me and do what I know to do. And I'm just going to be me and do what I know to do. But that is where that fight, flight, freeze comes in. That's where, if a person's natural tendency is to move into fear and just avoid it completely because they're afraid, someone's going to call you out on what you don't know. I mean, it's huge. Imposter syndrome is huge.
Speaker 2:And I think, for ministry leaders, because we're human, right, we all know who we are and hopefully we are living a sanctified life Right, hopefully we are living a sanctified life Right. But there are still things that come against us. And so if we're in a valley, you know, and you've got to get up and preach about praise or talk about joy, because you speak what you need right, you plant seeds for what you need to grow, it would be very disconcerting, it would be very difficult. So I think that all of this is about fear and always going back to that place where it kind of exists.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and then there's all you, when talking about you know, that sort of disconnect that you feel, um, when you are preaching something, um, and I need to inspire people because you know they want and they need to. You know, whatever they need to praise, they need to.
Speaker 2:you know I need to talk to them about prayer or encouragement or whatever the case might be, or God gives you a message about something you're not feeling at all, but you have to be obedient.
Speaker 3:Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt and burned it, but yeah, I have been there and so, having that in your head, in ministry you've got to go. Okay, this is not maybe necessarily where I am. When I first started out, started out ministry, I understood none of this, but you have to kind of go okay, this is. This may not be where I am right now, but this is where the people would need to be right now. This is where God's people want to be, need to be right now and then you just become a vessel and at that point you are the conduit.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know by which, and, and, and, and. So sometimes I think even people listening when you look at ministry in your life. Keep that in mind.
Speaker 2:And Kelly. So how hard would that be, knowing that, okay, god gave me this word, I have to deliver it. And I don't feel any of it. I don't feel worthy, I can't even you it. I don't feel worthy, I can't even you know, I'm not here emotionally. Like what do you think that? What do you think ministry goes through in terms of having to overcome that? And as you answer, I want you to specifically talk about our will to what we choose. The dichotomy of emotion. Right, I'm not feeling it. This is what I have, the difficult, what you have to overcome in order to be obedient to the Lord in that way.
Speaker 3:I think, once we get to the point where we realize and we think okay, I don't feel this and I'm not feeling, I'm not at this place. I'm struggling with this. All these things are battling against me. We have to get to the point where, in ministry oh well, I say we I had to get to the point in ministry where God just said you know what, kelly, yes, you're struggling and you and I are going to figure this out together. But at this point it's almost like a soldier mentality, right. It's like.
Speaker 2:Elaborate on that.
Speaker 3:It's like you. You know, a soldier is going to feel fear, he's going to feel anxiety, he's going to feel all these things. Of course, my dad's a Marine, and Marines aren't supposed to feel all those things.
Speaker 2:If you're watching on YouTube. We had some technical difficulties with our camera, so I will not be on the rest of the episode, but we have some great graphics for you to look at in my absence and the audio will continue, so we apologize they're going to feel all those things going in.
Speaker 3:But at some point there has to be that understanding. I am defending country. I'm defending whatever the case might be right. There's a higher calling to what I'm doing it's about the unit and purpose right and so and so in. It's the exact same thing. Part of dying out to self is not just dying out to is dying out to our flesh and our desires. That's part of it. But it's also dying out to who I think I am and what.
Speaker 3:I'm struggling with and to put that aside and go right now. You know God and I are going to take care of this. I'm assuming again, right, we're living a life that's pleasing to God, but we all are humans and we struggle with stuff, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:We have struggles with thoughts and imposter syndromes and all these things, but at some point it's got to be like okay, god, we're going to take care of this later. Right now, god's people need to be, you know, hot. You know God's people need to be inspired. God's people need direction, god's people need all these things, and so I think that God is saying you know what I called you to do this. How you feel right now. This is harsh, but sometimes we have to get to the point where how I'm feeling right now is immaterial, weighed against how people are going to be affected by what I have to say that God gave me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good.
Speaker 3:That's part of dying out to ourself too yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and dying out to how we think it should happen, how I should show up, how I should be and how I should be worthy. It's part of that mental checklist in our head. As long as we've done all these things, then I'm worthy. But like Jeff Arnold preached years ago he preached that message God is greater than our heart and knows all things. But if our heart condemns us not, then we think we're great, right. But if our heart condemns us, oh, god's greater than our heart and knows all things, right, right. But if our heart condemns us, oh god's greater than our heart and knows all things, um. But in actuality we have to realize that you know, um, when we get up to speak, you know god knows us, yeah, and god's going to use us anyway right in spite, in spite of right, where we've been and what we've done, yeah and so, yeah.
Speaker 2:And so you know, when it comes to wounds this is a huge burden of mine is I've said it before it Lord really comes in and does a work in a person's heart, and so a lot of times we, just when we come from difficulty, when we come from things that hurt us, often people are operating from a place of emotion, and emotion is what dictates their life. If I'm angry, I'm going to act angry. If I'm sad, I'm going to act sad, and every decision that I make along the way is going to be based on what I feel. And when we come into a place of healing with the Lord God heals our emotions and our thought processes we begin to then make decisions based on what is true, not what we feel, and that's a little bit of a journey. And so, you know, common symptoms from people that have been rejected are people pleasing and perfectionism, which we've already said.
Speaker 2:Uh, self rejection, beating yourself up, telling yourself, you know, oh, I'm just this, or, or I'm that, or I'm not good enough, or I'm too fat, I'm too skinny, I'm don't seem good enough, I'm, you know, not smart enough, all the not enough things that we can then walk in a place of extreme guilt and condemnation have been raised in or have gone to I'm trying to say this delicately a church that lacks the Spirit of God and maybe lacks the fruit of the Spirit.
Speaker 2:If you don't have a shepherd who is really loving the sheep, who is really there to encourage the sheep and to you know, help, lift you up the rules, and the minute you don't do the rule, they're condemning you. It is very easy for the enemy to come in and create that condemnation in your thoughts and a person will live in extreme guilt, and especially for people growing up in church. That's a lot of what happened. People growing up in church, that's a lot of what happened. That is a lot of reason why backsliders left is because they were just expected to be something and we bypass the healing process that actually comes from the work that Jesus did on the cross right, and so we're only addressing sometimes in church, not our church.
Speaker 2:I always say that but sometimes in church and I think it's just kind of a lack of understanding. This isn't for every church, but sometimes in church they're only dealing with the soul of a person, which is the mind, will and emotions. They're only dealing with the spirit of a person to get saved, to get you to heaven. They're not dealing with the whole, complete person of who that person is and how they behave out of these issues of life that they have lived through right. So we have people that come in that's been in prison, who I mean, I've known a lot of people who have been in prostitution, human trafficking.
Speaker 2:It is way more common, way more common than what we ever realize, especially in a church culture, because church cultures don't talk about that stuff. But you have these people that come in that are having all of this real lived experience and sometimes, if we're not sensitive to the Spirit of God, we're not really addressing that. We're not sensitive to the spirit of God, we're not really addressing that. We're just telling them get cleaned up and just get on the train and live for God. It just isn't that simple.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and while the outside, I think, is important, I think it's again the two ideas right, again the two ideas right. It's the. At the end of the day, the spirit of God is the. In my view and I've said it before to people is the spirit of God is the great regulator.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right, talk about that. So it helps us with all of these things. We talk about emotional regulation, right, and how to not be like you were saying manage your emotions, manage your emotions before they manage you, right, or to regulate those, or to make sure that they're not taking over every decision, like you were talking about every decision that you're making. And I think that the Spirit of God being this great regulator is because he, you know, the Spirit of God fills our spirit, saves our soul, affects our entire person.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:We can bring all of those emotions that are really emotions are just those really like dashboard indicator lights, that hey you got to take care of something you know underneath, here, right, and what that looks like is taking those emotions to God in prayer and going. God, I need your help with this. I'm feeling anxious about my marriage. I'm feeling anxious about my relationship with a loved one. I'm feeling all of these things. I need you to help me regulate through that.
Speaker 2:Right, and you and I know that.
Speaker 3:Right, you and I know that.
Speaker 2:God will take care of that. But what about the people who don't know that, or the people who backsliders, in particular, who had really negative experiences both at home and then in the church? How do we bridge that gap for them to where they can begin to see God like that? Because what do you think their ability to trust God is like, or where do you think their places of fear is? That prevents them from being able to take that step in prayer, or even in vulnerability, to approach the Lord.
Speaker 3:I think, ultimately it's a fear of being judged, because fear frames God more as a judge rather than a redeemer, and religion does that too, right, right.
Speaker 2:I mean, we can either be heavy on grace and we teach about a God who never judges, who never is righteous you, know the righteous judge or we can teach about a God who is so holy and he is all of that is true is so holy that unless we both. But what would you say to the mindset where you have someone that only sees God as the judge, the one up in heaven, pointing the finger at you, saying you're not this, you didn't do this right, you've done too many things, or if you come back, you have to do all of these things. What would you say to that?
Speaker 1:You know, and it's like where is?
Speaker 2:that coming from in them.
Speaker 3:Well, that's again. That's coming from a place of a fear of being judged, because I want. You know, somehow they got in their head, you know, somehow we get in our heads right that if I am this way then I am good. But we have to understand that God, I have to understand that God loved us before we quote unquote got good. So that love, regardless of where we find ourselves in our walk, that love is still there.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I know that logically, but I didn't have that growing up Not me, I did. But what if I'm a person who lived in survival mode all of my life and I don't feel safe and I didn't experience safety in love, like how, what, what thoughts and what emotions am I going to have to overcome in order to get to know God in this way?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it is going to come from being able to, and it doesn't necessarily have to happen with anyone else, but just a time with you and God alone, because everyone, regardless of where we're at in our life, we have those times where we talk to God.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:And to be able to understand and go. Okay, what I say to people that feel that way is I say that God loves you in your most vulnerable moment.
Speaker 2:Do you know how to be vulnerable?
Speaker 3:It's difficult.
Speaker 2:Yes, right.
Speaker 3:But to be able to tell, to show your deepest fears. Yes, right, where we go to church used to say you know going God everything. He used to use the phrase warts and all right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Meaning all the bad stuff that I struggle with and all the stuff that happened in my past. All of these things that I can bring to God and go here it is. It takes courage. It doesn't have to happen in a church setting. It doesn't have to happen in anything that's really great. It can happen in your living room and go God. Maybe it's been a while since you've reached out to him, but go God. These are all the things, right that the judgment that man put on you, god is never going to put on you. Right, right, right.
Speaker 2:And you know, we don't really know that until we decide.
Speaker 3:Right, we have to get to a point, right we?
Speaker 2:had to get to a point.
Speaker 2:We decide to give God a chance, you know, because I think no matter what and I've said this before on the podcast you know people are going to get it wrong, they're going to disappoint you and they're going to say the wrong things, hurt feelings, but most of the time it is completely unintentional.
Speaker 2:You know. A person's heart is not meant to do that necessarily, right? It's just that when we are, when we come from an abandonment wound or a rejection wound, our lens has already become distorted. It goes back to confirmation bias. I'm going to begin to see through this lens of what I believe to be true already about myself, or what I believe to be true about the world around me, about relationships, about God, about ministry, about Christians. Right, Because we get accused all the time of being hypocrites and I would say, yeah, okay, but it's not on purpose, because there's a big difference and there are hypocrites for sure, that is intentionally living double lives, but I would say the majority of Christians who are really endeavoring to pursue God, they're just doing the best they can with what they have.
Speaker 3:Right and there's hypocrisy, is not? We often think of hypocrisy as being unique to the church. It's not, it's not it's hypocrisy is in the corporate world. Hypocrisy is you know how many times, you know, have we ever heard of someone being, you know, insider trading or something like that? Yeah, hypocrisy is, is is everywhere, uh, and so. I think when we realize that hypocr, at least in my head that helps me go okay. So hypocrisy is not about God.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:Hypocrisy is about the human and just kind of mess things up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know, I think that when a person comes from a place of fear you know when, when I'm working with a client and let's say they're struggling with anxiety or depression or anger or resentment, or hurt or sorrow, any of those things so frequently it can be drilled down into either fear or the not being good enough narrative and sometimes they're the same right but at the root of it is fear, which does not come from God. But if I am afraid to be exposed, if I am afraid to be vulnerable, if I am afraid to give God a chance, because my perception of him has been one of judgment, or I've seen this too, where God didn't show up, I saw a kiddo whose dad died right in front of them and that kiddo prayed that God would save the dad and let him live, and the dad died, and that kiddo has a very distinctive memory of asking God to save his dad and then he didn't, you know. And so people have these experiences that prevent them from, you know, risking that trust again, being able to take that risk and trust. I remember one time and I cannot remember the circumstances, but I remember where I lived and I remember being on my hands and knees, desperate for God. And the way that I explain this is you know, and I don't I can't remember if I had already rededicated my life or not. I think I had. Yeah, I think I had.
Speaker 2:But I just really needed God to show up and I literally felt like I was on hopelessness and a fear. You cannot see any hope beyond that. And I remember telling God if you do not show up and I didn't really have a specific way I needed him to show up, I just knew I needed something. I didn't really have a specific way I needed him to show up, I just knew I needed something and feeling like my ability to have faith would forever be jeopardized. And that was just the emotional feelings that I was having at that time. But I remember I just prayed until I couldn't pray anymore and I got up, dusted myself off, metaphorically speaking and I went about my day and I remember a couple hours later the load had lifted and there was not anything that happened. There was not any earth-shattering moment that proved God came in and rescued the day.
Speaker 2:My circumstances didn't change. I didn't have any aha moment, but there was a marked change in the peace that I felt and it was enough to be okay to keep going. Again, I wasn't suicidal, but I was afraid that I would lose faith, you know, and so I know that people very much live in these crossroads and these dichotomies. They really want to trust God, they really want to approach him and believe, but they just don't know how.
Speaker 3:And often it is because there is a deeper wound in our, in our, the way we see the world, and in our emotions, you know, and just overall in life, and sometimes in our flesh through disease, through accidents, through all sorts of things and I think that, ultimately, you know wherever we're at, whatever, whatever, when, wherever, however, we're perceiving God, or, or whatever the case might be, I think that, ultimately, you know wherever we're at, whatever, whatever, when, wherever, however, we're perceiving god, or whatever the case might be, I think that ultimately, uh, there is a moment where I don't think there's just one moment that god says I'm just going to give you one, one opportunity.
Speaker 3:But I think there's sometimes that there's that moment that comes to us like, like you, right, I'm at the edge of this cliff. So sometimes situations in our lives force us to get to that moment. Sometimes we make that choice to say this is the moment right. Right, sometimes you know things happen in life and we're like you know what, this is the moment right. But I think, ultimately, we have to go okay, we have to make that choice in our mind and in our spirit and go okay, I know what my past has been, I know what, how, I have you got in the past, and all that comes into play and all that is a factor. I'm not dismissing that. I'm just saying we bring all of that with us once we make that decision to go. Okay, I'm going to make that one step, and it could be that one prayer that you pray right and nothing big happens, not a lot.
Speaker 3:I have found that the most significant moments spiritually in my life have not been the big. You know, somebody comes and gives you the word or something like that and that's this big boom. You know, it has just been in the. I prayed, got up, went throughout my day, had forgotten that I had prayed about X or ABCD or whatever the case might be right and all of a sudden it all falls into place.
Speaker 3:I'm like, oh cool, it fell into place. And God's like, yeah, remember morning when you prayed or yesterday when you prayed about this. Yeah, that's me taking control of this. That's me answering. I prayed once when I was a young minister. I went to a conference once and I was praying. I was like God, you got to give me a word. You got to give me a word. A lot of people do and a lot of people get words, and that's great.
Speaker 3:And I was praying and had my hands lifted up and I was crying out, I needed a word. And Brother Mark Morgan comes over to me and I'm like, oh great, here comes Mark Morgan. Morgan comes over to me and I'm like, oh great, here comes Mark Morgan, you know he's going to give me the word that I need. And he starts to pray for me and I'm like, all right, I'm listening, I'm listening and he just leans over. He's a great friend of mine. Now he leans over in my ear and he goes God's already told you what to do. Now you just need to go do itbling. And he left and I was like, oh okay, I guess I'm done, you know, uh. So it's kind of like those kind of moments that I once I got to know him better and I did some work for him and got to know him and the family and stuff. I asked him about that one day. I was like, hey, you remember this. He goes.
Speaker 3:No, I don't remember that you know, um, but it was one of those moments where it was like wasn't anything big, wasn't anything huge, it was just, and I knew exactly what he meant. That was the funny part. I knew exactly what he was talking about. So sometimes it's just those moments where it's like this is not going to be a big moment, but it's going to be something like you were saying you know, I need god right now yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And when people come to the table wounded, it's everything to them, and the importance of our choice is huge, because the whole reason God gave us free will is so that we would choose from a place of knowing and a place of desiring, and not from a place of performativeness. God is not going to perform for you, and so that sincerity and that vulnerability has to really, really be there. But you know, I would say that, ironically, trust is also built in these moments, when you are willing to risk and you're willing to say you know, god man, I'm going to take this step, because what if I'm wrong? What if what I thought was incorrect? What if you really are who the Bible says you are? What if yeah.
Speaker 2:Because there's all these what ifs. On the negative, side. Right, but there's also what ifs on the negative side, but there's also what if it's on the positive side. Like you know what if God did catch me, which he did that day? You know what if God really can make all things good in your life? What if God really can take away your fear and anxiety and give you a purpose?
Speaker 3:We often think you know what if? What if this is the absolute worst thing that could possibly happen to me? You know, we flip that over and go okay, what if this is the absolute best thing that could possibly happen? Right, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the and the enemy shows up. Um, the enemy shows up in our thoughts. He shows up Our instinct and our fallen nature is negative first, and so part of what we learn as we become Christians or as we take another step towards God is I have to learn how to rewire that and be aware. Okay, my first instinct is this.
Speaker 2:Someone told me once give everything 24 hours. I use that all the time in therapy now, because if you give everything 24 hours, you're not going to react out of instinct, which often isn't always going to be good. It's going to allow you to react out of intentionality, and living for God, especially in the beginning, is often out of intentionality. I am choosing, I'm choosing to try, I'm choosing to explore, I'm choosing to trust. And then, when you get the experience of his love and his peace that comes along with it, it makes it easy. But we're not bumping up against the goodness of God, we're bumping up against our own fear and our own flesh and our own ego and our own pride that is preventing us from taking that step with him. Absolutely Yep, and that's the dying process, you know, and man, our ego our ego will give us a really great fight.
Speaker 3:Most definitely, most definitely, yeah, and trying to. You know, come to those moments where everything it's difficult, because everything around you is screaming do this, do that, you know, take it into your own hands and sometimes making that step of trust, no matter how small it could just be, driving in your car and going I need you, god, when I go to this meeting, or I need you, god, you know, to do this, and he follows through and does it. You're open with him, you're vulnerable with him, right, and I tell people kind of in couples counseling as well, it's kind of like you know, um, the more you are vulnerable with each other, uh, the more trust will be built between you, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Hey, I, I told someone my deepest, darkest concern in life. Right, I told this person that, and they did not, you know, text it to their friends. They didn't make fun of me, they didn't, you know, whatever. Oh, okay, I have, then, a little bit of trust to share, a little bit more.
Speaker 2:So what's the principle in that? Do you know?
Speaker 3:You're going to tell me. I have a feeling in that?
Speaker 2:do you know? You're gonna tell me I have a feeling. Yeah, the principle is that we have to take the first step and then, and then we get to learn that it's safe.
Speaker 2:It doesn't become safe first, right, it becomes safe once you it's's completely right, completely unsafe, which is contrary to our need right, Especially if we have any kind of wounds. We are looking for safety and security and God is asking you to take a step first and trust. And I was just going to say something and I lost my train of thought, but it was going to be good.
Speaker 3:Well, I have a story about that too. So my daughter was learning. Well, she had already learned how to swim and she was learning how to. You know, there's a difference between swimming in the pool and learning how to dive into the pool, right. So she was learning how to dive into the pool. She's younger and she was. She was actually in the pool at the house that we're at now, anyway pool at the house that we're at now, anyway. So she was getting ready. I just said jump in. I said I'll catch you, and she wouldn't do it. And she wouldn't do it. She wouldn't do it. And so trust and faith go hand in hand. So she was standing at the edge of the pool. She goes no, you're going to drop me. And I said no, I'm not. So finally she jumps into the pool. I catch her, she swims back to the edge and jumps again. So she's got the trust that says she's got the trust that says dad did it before. So that gives me faith to swim back to the edge of the pool and jump again.
Speaker 2:Right, right. I was going to ask you to delineate between trust and faith yeah, trust says god has done it in the past. You know whether I read no, I mean using this, this example with lauren in this example yeah in this example.
Speaker 3:So her trust was dad caught me because, why wait?
Speaker 2:he did what he said he was going to do because she loves you and because you have shown up for her Right and because she has relationship with you Right. So that allows me the ability to trust you, right? Okay, and then that allows for faith to take place.
Speaker 3:And I have to say, and you know this, I'm a little bit of a smart aleck. So I was tempted to not catch her Right and just let her see what it felt like. But then I thought, well then I'm going to damage her trust and her faith Correct For later, jumps Right. So I didn't. And she did the same thing over and over again. And now you know, at that point you know, all she wanted to do was jump off the edge of the pool. Yeah, right, and so I think that sometimes, um, knowing, because no matter where we are in our journey, even if we have walked away from our faith or fallen away from our faith, however you want to term- it or in church struggling, or if you're in church and you're struggling.
Speaker 3:absolutely, I think that, at the end of the day, I don't ever think it's a question of whether or not people love God.
Speaker 2:Yeah right.
Speaker 3:So if we so, like in my story and you were mentioning her love for me caused me to go Dad did it before I love him I'm going to go back and try it again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you know, using that analogy as well, like, yeah, it's so convoluted because there's so many aspects to fatherhood. But you know, the bible says our father in heaven if. If a father on earth knows how to give good gifts to his children, how much more will our father in heaven give? But when we have a family who doesn't have a good father that gave them good gifts, there is no context to understand that. They have to just simply decide whether or not. I'm going to try, you know.
Speaker 2:And Brene Brown talks about the concept of curiosity and I love it because she says you know, when it comes to trust, when it comes to shame, we have to get really curious about ourselves, start paying attention to the things that make me tick. I'm always a little bit sad at the people that don't really know themselves, don't really spend any time thinking about what they think or paying attention to what they feel. They just go through life on automatic pilot, doing the same routine all the time. They're not really paying attention to who they actually are, what they're actually saying, how they're reacting and just going through the motions. But if a person could really slow down and get curious, huh, you know who am I really. Why did I just you know have road rage right there?
Speaker 3:Right. Why am I thinking this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, and really look at that where the Lord is concerned, or where church culture is concerned, or where Christians are concerned, or whatever the case may be, that is preventing a person from reconnecting to God, because however they reconnect to God, god will lead them into all truth. The Bible says, and so you know, if you could just get curious and maybe rethink what are your beliefs about God? Where did they come from? How long ago was that?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know and who are you today? Right, what else could be true, you know?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because we've all heard God is good. And if you haven't experienced that, are you just a little bit curious as to why we say that? Because it's not hyperbole.
Speaker 3:No, and it's true. And beliefs that get drilled into us, sometimes when we're younger, like you were talking about. How long ago was that into us? Sometimes, you know, when we're younger, like you're talking about, how long ago was that? Well, it's 30 years ago, when I was you know, yeah, you know, a teenager or whatever. Um, you've grown, you've changed, you've developed, you right, you know new experiences yeah, new lenses, yeah, um, okay.
Speaker 2:Well, I am a talker so I not quite done, but I feel like we are wrapping up. I'm going to read just a few of the notes about the way that fear can frame our idea about God. So fear can become the framework for relationships. Through hypervigilance, through control, we avoid hurt by taking control of situations and defensiveness, using distance or aggression to self-protect ourselves. But how this would distort our view of God would be God is seen as distant, like he's way up in heaven and I'm way down here and I can't quite access him. Punitive, which we've talked about already. Untrustworthy. I can't trust him. Our soul fears intimacy. Again, that's about exposure. Someone's really going to see me and are they going to like what they see? If they really see me, what if they find out I'm not all these things that I've reflected myself to be, even though we long for that intimacy. And the surrender feels super threatening. Ability to surrender feels super threatening.
Speaker 3:Because in our minds that vulnerability is not safe Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, and then trust. Trust is obviously the unworthiness. Why would God love somebody like me? I don't really trust that God would love me. I don't feel worthy that he would. The mindset can lead to feeling disqualified from grace and a need to strive to earn God's love, which I have heard that I don't know if you have in your practice with people, but people feeling like they're disqualified, like God can't forgive them, god's grace can't extend to them, and you see people that maybe they've been in combat duty and they've had to take a life, or law enforcement officers I don't know if they struggle with that as much, but you know when, when the behaviors are egregious, people can sometimes feel that way that god's grace can't extend to them. Right, um, and then um, difficulty to surrender, also because of the pain of childhood, and it just further contributes to a person's ability to approach God and that could distort God's promises. We may not be able to intellectually accept them.
Speaker 2:Scripture might feel true for others, but not true for us but not true for us, and I had someone actually say that to me once. I believe it and I've heard this. I believe God will heal them. I just don't know that God will heal us, but it's the same stripes.
Speaker 3:Right, exactly, and it's the same blood.
Speaker 2:It's the same thing, it's the same cross Right, exactly, and it's the same blood. It's the same thing. You know, it's the same cross, yep, and he doesn't change right. But the distortion is rooted in our unworthiness, you know, and that is actually anti-biblical, totally anti-biblical Resistance to prayer. You know, the inability to trust can cause us to resist prayer. Prayer and worship require emotional closeness and vulnerability, and so people that have wounds cannot usually access that, and so when you're taking your, what would you say, kelly, would be baby steps for somebody who struggles with emotional intimacy and vulnerability.
Speaker 3:As far as prayer is concerned.
Speaker 2:No, as far as taking a step towards God in general.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would make it so that any step you're making, whether that is prayer or whether that is, whatever the case might be any step that you're making, make it as a private and so whatever your mind is, that you feel like, okay, this has to be safe and this has to be right. Okay, so get in a room by yourself where there's no one else.
Speaker 1:Turn your phone off.
Speaker 3:All of these things that are going to come into your mind and give you that mental checklist that, oh, I'm not this, I'm not that, I'm not the other thing, so I can't do this. Move all those things out and take five minutes as a start and just remove all of those things out of your consciousness. Right, focus on him and I think as much as of the noise that we can turn down or turn off. I think that is the better. That would be my first step.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know God meets, god will meet you where you're at, if, if you are a person, I think about somebody I've seen at church for a long time and I was very similar, just super, just super. You know, um armored up Brene Brown would call it the armor that we wear because, for fear of of being vulnerable, um, because we often can't be vulnerable with ourselves. Admitting, admitting our own brokenness is so difficult for us because it's grievous.
Speaker 3:And I would do that with someone too. If you're going to open up like that and talk about, one of the things, too, that I would suggest is, if you have a difficulty doing it on your own, I would definitely sit with someone and talk with them about that too, yeah.
Speaker 2:Or I cut you off there, that's okay, that's okay, that's okay. But God will meet us where we're at right. And so if all you could do is drive in your car on the way to work or go sit outside on the grass or get alone with the lights off, whatever it is, whatever small step you can take, the Lord knows your heart, he created you, he knows the number of hairs on your head and he will notice whatever small step that you can take in order to make your way back. Because, at the end of the day, it's not about the church you go to, it's not about how you clean up the outside. It's about your relationship with the Lord. God takes care of all the rest. God will order your steps, he'll lead, guide and direct you. He will walk with you and teach you His ways. I didn't know a lot of this stuff. The Lord has just had to teach me through life experiences, through my own brokenness and my own hurt and my own heartbreaks hurt and my own.
Speaker 2:you know heartbreaks, but thankfully I knew he loved me. I just didn't know how to live in this world. But so I just want to sort of make it easy for people out there, because what people struggle with today is very real and very convoluted and complicated, right, and you have to give yourself grace. But I know Kelly's life and my life and many of the other people's lives that you have seen exposed on this podcast as they've shared their testimonies. At the end of the day, whether you grow up in church and you do all the right things or you go out and you have a great big history, you know, sadness is sadness.
Speaker 2:The way you feel sadness and the way I feel sadness, it's still sadness. What you do with that sadness and what I do with that sadness might differ. If you feel rejection and I feel rejection, it's still rejection. It doesn't matter who we are or where we come from. The emotional ramifications of that are very similar. It's generally what we do with it and where we begin to um, where our head goes, where our head goes with it, but it's, it's painful. Life is painful. But, man, what I was going to say is the difference with you and me and the people that we've interviewed is that they have been willing to just take a step and say man God, it was not working out for me on my own Right, you know, and why not give it a try? You know and for you. You grew up in church, you've lived, but you've changed jobs, you pursued ministry, you've had your own growth in identity and I mean I think every new season that's constantly changing. Vulnerability is constantly, because I actually think God requires it, because I actually think God requires it.
Speaker 3:Yeah absolutely.
Speaker 2:It's constantly having to die to ourself and then become exposed again back to him.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, I was going to say that, yeah, it's part of dying to yourself and I think that all of the stuff that we've experienced and that we think sometimes is going to be the thing that keeps us from reaching out right. Right, think sometimes is going to be the thing that keeps us from reaching out Right.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:I just want to say that people that are find themselves there right, all that stuff God is going to use.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:Thank you, to teach us trust again, to teach us all these different things. So all that stuff just because, not just because, but because we have those things. That's not necessarily it's so easy for me to sit on a podcast and say this, but it's not necessarily a barrier for God.
Speaker 1:Barrier for us, Right right.
Speaker 3:But God is going to take that and go oh yeah, that time back there where this happened, yeah, okay. So you and I are going to go back here and we're going to take that and go oh yeah, that time back there where this happened, yeah, okay. So you and I are going to go back here and we're going to revisit this and I'm going to show you how I can show up for you here, right, right, or we're going to talk about this and we're going to work through this. So all of those things you know again the scripture it's overused all the time right, all things work together, right. So everything, everything that I've been through, god is going to use at some point I think I talked about this in part one right To either help me or help somebody else Right.
Speaker 3:To draw honey out of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so good yeah, because he's good. Okay, any last final thoughts?
Speaker 3:No, I promise next week I will have a different colored shirt on.
Speaker 2:Oh no. You can wear black. I might wear black too.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 2:I'm totally teasing. I'm sorry if I made you self-conscious.
Speaker 3:No, that's totally fine, totally fine.
Speaker 2:So I hope you guys were able to follow the conversation. I am very impromptu and I think I drive Kelly crazy sometimes because he'll say, okay, what are we going to talk about? And I actually did write an order.
Speaker 3:He does have an order here.
Speaker 2:We just kind of went all over, but I just like real conversations. So thank you for watching. I hope you guys got something out of this today. And next week we're going to do part three and we're going to tie it all together how our broken pieces God ultimately wants to restore and wants to heal and redeem, and how all of that points us back to how we walk out this Christian life. So please come back next week and don't forget to like and subscribe.
Speaker 3:Thank, you Thanks, everybody.
Speaker 1:We are so glad you joined us. If you have a story of redemption or have worn the label of a backslider, we would love to hear from you. If you'd like to support our ministry, your donation will be tax deductible. Visit our website at theredeemedbacksliderorg. We hope you will tune in for our next episode.
