The Redeemed Backslider
“Welcome to The Redeemed Backslider—with your host, Kathy Chastain, Christian-based psychotherapist and a redeemed backslider. This podcast dedicated to those who have wandered but are ready to return to the life-changing power of grace and the freedom found in Jesus.
In Luke 4:18, Jesus proclaimed: ‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because He has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed.’
This is the heart of our message. Whether you’re wrestling with regret, despair, seeking freedom from spiritual chains, or longing to see the light of God’s love again, you’re not alone. Here, we share testimonies, biblical truths, and encouragement to remind you that no one is too far gone for God’s redemption.
This is your invitation to find healing, hope, and restoration in Jesus. Welcome to The Redeemed Backslider—where grace is greater than your past and your future is abundant when God redeems your story.”
The Redeemed Backslider
Returning to Wholeness with Kelly Ventura, TRB #21 Part 3 of 3
Trauma doesn't just wound our hearts—it fundamentally alters how we see ourselves, others, and most profoundly, how we view God. In this powerful conclusion to our three-part series, psychotherapists Kathy Chastain and Kelly Ventura explore the spiritual battlefield of childhood trauma and the enemy's strategic use of our wounds to distort our perception of God's character and intentions.
The conversation delves deep into how early attachment disruptions create internal belief systems that act as spiritual barriers. When caregivers who should have reflected God's protective nature instead become sources of fear or inconsistency, we unconsciously project these qualities onto God Himself. This explains why many trauma survivors find connecting with God challenging, even when they deeply desire that relationship.
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Kathy has two books out and they can be found on Amazon or Barnes & Noble online:
Redeem California, With God it IS Possible:
God of the Impossible: 30-Prayers for the Redemption and Restoration of California
Welcome to the Redeemed Backslider with your host, kathy Chastain. Christian-based psychotherapist and Redeemed Backslider. This podcast is dedicated to those who have wandered but are ready to return to the life-changing power of grace and the freedom found in Jesus.
Speaker 2:Hi, welcome to the Redeemed Backslider. I'm your host, kathy Chastain. I'm a Christian-based psychotherapist and I'm also a Redeemed Backslider. With me in the studio today for part three of our series how Trauma Affects Our View with God is my colleague, kelly Ventura. So, kelly, thanks for coming back three separate times.
Speaker 3:Yeah, different shirt this time. New shirt, color blue, one of the only blue shirts I have in my closet.
Speaker 2:Oh good, so we'll recap for everybody today, and why don't you take us through the recap of where we've been episode one, episode two, and then we'll kick off today.
Speaker 3:Episode one, we did talk about kind of the overview of God's design for us as humans. We talked about the flesh, the emotions, the mind and the spirit, how all of that is brought to God and how it kind of not kind of but it does reflect his design for us, right.
Speaker 3:Perfection and purity, right and purpose. Yeah, we reviewed some of the scriptures, kind of talked about that, about Thessalonians, talking about making your whole heart, spirit and body to be kept blameless. Jesus grew in wisdom. We talked about love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. So we talked about kind of those four aspects also.
Speaker 3:We did kind of define also the. I think this was my part, so we probably kind of not really defined it super well, but we did talk about the flesh, so the body, which is kind of that vehicle that carries us through right our life and how we engage with the world around us.
Speaker 3:So it's our physical body which mine is tired this morning, so I'm sure everybody else can relate but we talked about our emotions, which is the seat of our feelings, whether that be joy, grief, fear. We talked about anger, we talked about anxiety, we talked about a lot of different things when we touched on that Also, the mind, which is kind of the seat of our, or the realm of our thoughts, our beliefs, our reasoning, our identity, and we also talked about how we can renew the mind. We talked about the scripture in Romans 12 and two Um, and then we talked about the spirit, which sometimes, you know, uh, it kind of gets a little bit murky sometimes with some definitions of the spirit. But essentially what we did was talk about how that is our identity. It's the seed of our identity, our purpose, right, our capacity for even engaging in worship to God, right, it's our spirit that reaches out to God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, our eternal part of us that is always sort of rooted in that pureness or desires, that place where God fits right, the place where that that longs for him.
Speaker 3:Right, and that's how we also receive love, right. Is in our spirit. We talked about that, how we experience transformation when we come to the Lord. Right, and that's how, through our spirit, how we-.
Speaker 2:That gets saved first. That gets saved first right.
Speaker 3:God saves our spirit. To save our soul right.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 3:And then we talked about, kind of at the end of that kind of section we talked about when each part of the person is operating as God wants us to be, as God has designed us, has created us to be, Then that's when we experience the positives right, we experience health, identity, purpose connection. Wholeness, wholeness. Yeah, and then any disruption in that kind of affects the whole of who we are.
Speaker 2:And how does that disruption occur?
Speaker 3:occur and then so we talked about the disruption. Thank, that's a great segue, awesome, perfect. Thank you so? We talked about. After that, though, we talked about how that disruption happens, and we talked about, uh, trauma, and we talked about attachment. We talked about kind of defining those, those different types of attachments. We talked about trauma being that emotional, physical, psychological response to distressing or a disturbing event or events in our lives.
Speaker 2:Well, trauma is a byproduct of abuse. Basically, you know whether that's psychological, sexual, physical, um emotional neglect okay which I know you know.
Speaker 3:I'm just clarifying for the audience right, right, uh, and you actually kind of um went a little bit deeper there and talked about acute trauma, right, which is that that single event, uh, chronic, sorry, go ahead yeah, I was gonna say acute is where it's sort of like a ptsd effect, where it's still affecting you on a regular basis but it's been one event that's still affecting someone, or is that?
Speaker 2:no, um, acute means more that it's happening right now. Okay, you know that. That it's that the effects of something is ongoing in the present moment. Right, it doesn't necessarily mean how long it lasted or how many times it happened. It's mostly the effect of whatever that was. So if I'm in pain right now from a broken arm you know two weeks ago, I'm still in acute pain yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and we also talked about along those lines. We talked about chronic trauma, which is that repeated exposure to, to trauma, to, to stress yeah, it's ongoing Right.
Speaker 2:Right and so like, in a sexual abuse, or physical abuse or neglect or even psychological. Often that is not just a one-off. If there is abuse, it's typically ongoing, sometimes for years. I've known people who are abused from age five years old to age 11 years old or age eight years old, until they actually moved out of the house, you know. So it can be ongoing, um, which creates a whole lot of other things. But all of that leads to how we attach and which is, um, ultimately what forms a person right and I think maybe to one of the things that we didn't.
Speaker 3:I don't, I don't remember if we did like my father-in-law says I've slept since the last time. You know I did this. But complex trauma is one of the things that I don't know that we really kind of zeroed in on at all. But can you kind of speak to that? It's that trauma that occurs in the context. It's that trauma that occurs in the context. So we're talking about attachments. So it occurs in the context, right, of relationships, you know, especially during, you know, when we're little humans.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so complex trauma is really defined as little T trauma. So big T trauma is the four major neglect that could be. As a kiddo you didn't have a caregiver that was feeding you and you might've gone days without food or your diaper never got changed for a while and you lived in constant, constant neglect or physical abuse, sexual abuse or psychological abuse. So those are basically the big T traumas. Other big T traumas would be a near-death experience, a car accident or even an infant, and I've had friends whose child developed cancer at a very early age. I mean we know of friends early age. I mean we know of friends and so that child lived with tons of surgeries, tons of hospitalizations.
Speaker 2:So that's still a big T trauma, even though it wasn't the kind that we typically associate with trauma car accident, witnessing your parents try to murder your other parent, or real case experiences where the child did witness their parent being murdered, or any of those kind of big, big life events that we would consider big. The little incidents of like being bullied at school, being made fun of not getting your needs met, your parent ridiculing you, or a breakup, something that really affects our emotional equilibrium. That then kind of changes the way we view the world. So there's a plethora of things that would constitute little T trauma, but so complex trauma is kind of like the ongoing effects of all of those things. Trauma is such a buzzword these days and I think it's because people are getting acquainted with themselves more so and not slipping things under the rug like they used to. But it is kind of a buzzword. But basically we're trying to identify the things that hurt us. Right.
Speaker 2:Because whatever hurts us, if it doesn't become healed, is going to fester and get infected. And if it gets infected it's going to come out and you're going to bleed on somebody you know generally not in a good way, Right, right, so that's complex trauma, okay, so kind of.
Speaker 3:I'm going to go down this cul-de-sac here for a second. So what about you? You brought this up about you know it's kind of a buzzword, right, and I'm sure, as a licensed marriage and family therapist and having your own practice and all that good stuff that you probably see on Instagram and social media kind of, these videos that that kind of do bring you know these ideas, these thoughts, these concepts, these conditions right, kind of to the forefront, I would imagine sometimes it's for the good and sometimes maybe not. You know, maybe someone's misinformed or something, what? What's your take on kind of social media and how it brings these things to the surface?
Speaker 2:I think there are some wonderful things on social media. I often use that as a reference for people because if you come to therapy even if you come to a pastor for counseling typically you're going to get one hour Right. That is, one hour in seven days is not sufficient to address the issue. When I used to do nutrition and personal training, I would tell people you know, if you're coming to work out with me for two days a week, you got seven days in a week. Why are you only picking two Like how much change do you really want? So one hour is not sufficient, and so often I use social media tools to help people kind of understand a little bit more about themselves, and so in that sense, there are wonderful people on social media where you can really glean and learn from um.
Speaker 2:However, tiktok and YouTube sometimes can be very negative, and here's why I'm going to go back to the lens we see life through. So if my lens is abandonment or my lens is rejection because I have all these wounds that I have not addressed, I'm going to then look at videos that reinforce that. Again, confirmation bias. I believe something Now. Everything I see and hear and learn is reinforcing and confirming what I already believe. And so I've seen this with kids with cutting, I've seen it with kids with suicidal, I've seen it with kids with suicidal ideation, and adults, for that matter, whatever they view. Once the algorithms are so great at knowing what the person is interested in, they will continue to feed that to them.
Speaker 3:You must be able to read upside down, because I just wrote on my notes algorithm. Oh yeah, no, I wasn't.
Speaker 2:But you know so. So if someone is listening to sad, depressing music and there's so much of that, or someone is said to their friend, hey, I cut myself all of a sudden, you know the phone's listening, it's going to feed you all those videos and now you have a menu and a diet of negativity that's going to reinforce your victimization and further behaviors. So here's what I would say. The Bible says nothing in itself is unclean, but when it enters the heart of man, it becomes unclean, and so I think there's wonderful tools out there, but it can be used for bad. Everything, I think, can be good and bad at the same exact time. It's just what we do with it and what we're looking for ultimately.
Speaker 2:Right, two things can exist in our heads at the same time yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And then we talked about a little bit too, about, well, we talked not a little bit, but then we went into attachment and that deep emotional bond that is created, that connection that's created between us when we're little humans, right, and our caregivers Right. And then we were talking about kind of the different attachment styles. We went through secure attachment, which forms when you know, I call it the leave it to beaver attachment, but that's, that's kind of not really what it is, I know, but that's kind of like right, right, right.
Speaker 3:And the caregivers are emotionally available. They're there, everything happens great for you, and even, I would say even in secure attachment right, everybody's a human being and not everything's going to happen, perfect all the time Right, right, right.
Speaker 2:But there's that attachment.
Speaker 3:But you can repair Right when things go wrong, Right right, beaver always was able to come home, you know, when he had a problem and Ward was always able to fix it. I like that, so, uh, but uh. Then we talked about avoidant attachment, right, so when caregivers are uh distant, right, uh, unresponsive, uh, they're not tuned into the emotions and the needs of the child, how is that so? I was thinking about this type of attachment and I know that in a codependent relationship, right, one is the avoidant right Kind of avoids responsibility, kind of retreats. In a codependent relationship, someone that is in a relationship with someone that this person feels like they are always covering for this person. They have a partner that is always avoiding, whether that be spinning off and going in addictions or just completely withdrawing and separating from family emotionally distant, emotionally withdrawal.
Speaker 2:How does that type of attachment factor into codependent relationships? Well, the codependent, you know, based on whether or not well, it would totally amplify the rejection and abandonment wound. Okay, right, and so the codependent person pushes harder, works harder, tries to do better, constantly strive, strive, strive. Because they're trying to figure out what's going to make this avoidant spouse or parent come closer to them. Because, ultimately, they're looking for connection. And at the end of the day, we are all looking for connection because that's how God wired us. You know, when he made Adam, he didn't make Adam to be alone. He first made Adam and had all of the animals on the earth as a companion. That was not good enough. So then put Adam to sleep and made Eve.
Speaker 2:Because humans need faculties, are disconnected within themselves, it makes it incredibly difficult for that relationship to be healthy, and all the more reason why healing needs to occur. And you can heal. Someone who is avoidant can heal. But what happens sometimes is I don't want to say one or two things, because nothing fits tidily into this nice little box, but this is where, in all of these situations, is where personality disorders are formed. So, let's say, a narcissist, for example and, by the way, statistics show that there's really only about 1% to 5% of people who are clinically narcissistic.
Speaker 3:I was going to say another thing that's rampant not rampant, but a lot on social media also that we see too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because we have traits of narcissism. And I would say the traits of narcissism occur because people are living in survival mentality. So if someone is holding a gun to my head and the only thing I'm thinking about is how I'm going to live and get away from this person, make it out alive. My top priority is myself, because I am surviving, and so people with abusive backgrounds and trauma are very much in survival instinct.
Speaker 2:So it does look incredibly selfish, but the selfishness is rooted in survival and so that often gets misconstrued with narcissism, and so when someone is really clinically narcissist, it's very difficult for them to even recognize where their need is. They don't even see the fact that they're disconnected, they don't even see the fact that they're emotionally unavailable. They just don't even have a lens for that or any sort of, because it was really severed in the trauma and that would only I mean God is the only one that can really create a miracle to repair that and restore what got broken. Because they say that researchers say that the psyche gets split and there becomes a veil that just puts that piece of that person away and it becomes so far removed they can't quite access it and it becomes so far removed, they can't quite access it. It would really take an intervention of God in that type of a situation. But avoidance is often coping. So many things become coping, which we'll get through in a little bit more, but the wound is affecting, know is affecting in our, ultimately our, identity.
Speaker 3:Right. So those kinds of things, you know, for example, when we're talking about narcissism, that becomes something that kind of has, I guess, then developed right to where that person has kind of seen it as kind of a coping mechanism for trauma, then Right, and it feels or seems selfish, but in reality it's just that person going no, this is how I am reacting and responding to what has happened to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, it's subconscious. So the person is completely aware Right Right In narcissism there is no awareness period that the veil is covering everything, right. But when a person is aware and they've learned to cope out of safety, to prevent pain, further pain, that person can actually grow through that and heal and get some help and then learn how to connect. But the vulnerability that that takes is quite difficult.
Speaker 3:It's a big step. Yeah.
Speaker 3:So we also talked about the anxious attachment which is the result of inconsistent caregiving, which can lead to the child becoming anxious, clinging, needy, etc. You know, fearing abandonment, and I know that there's a lot of parents out there that are probably going oh no, you know, I want to make sure my child, you know, gets the best. We're not always consistent. So are we talking about, you know, about the occasional? I know we're not talking about I'm asking our way because I know we're not but we're not really talking about the occasional inconsistencies that we all sometimes have. Right, I am going to cut that right there, because my chair just made a weird noise and it sounded like something else, so okay, I didn't even hear it, by the way let me go back.
Speaker 3:My chair just didn't made this squeak and I'm like, oh, that sounded weird and I was lifting up at the same time. So, anyway, okay, all right. So 23, 26, okay, we'll start again here, all right. So anxious attachment is one of the ones that we talked about as well, kind of that we emphasize. I know that a lot of parents are probably listening, going, oh no, I want to make sure my child is receiving consistent, you know, love and all those good kind of things from me. If there's someone out there going, hey, you know what, maybe I have been inconsistent in my approach, what I know, we're talking zero to five years, right, zero to three years, kind of like, right in that, what can I do as a parent to kind of repair that? We talk a lot about repairing conversations, right, and repairing different things in our lives. If someone is recognizing and going, oh, I may be a little inconsistent, I want to make sure that my child gets the best From your viewpoint, what can someone do to kind of repair that?
Speaker 2:your viewpoint, what can someone do to kind of repair that? Well, generally that I mean if they're in the process of raising a child zero to five. If you're in that process right now, you know, I would just make sure your own needs are met, because we cannot meet the needs of others if we ourself are not okay. And so when it comes to parenting, like, one of the things I see often is um, um, what's the word? Um? Postpartum depression in moms, right, and so when there is postpartum um, the mom is really, really struggling, and so they are really going to have a difficult time connecting with their infant and little toddler because mom's all over the place and needs some help, and so the mom might show up and nurse the baby and have a little time to be with the baby, but then the mom is going to fall back into a depression and may not be available for the rest of the day. So it's that kind of thing. Also, when they're siblings, born really close together, the kiddo that maybe they're two now they have another little baby come along and doesn't always get the attention it needs, you know, and a lot of children are born close together like that. So that in and of itself is not a problem.
Speaker 2:Where attachment gets disrupted is when a child has needs that doesn't get met or gets met very inconsistently. And most of the time when children are growing, what's going to happen is they're going to cry. So I just had heard of a case. Actually, a pastor friend called me and the parent was screaming at the child because the child is crying. Children do not cry most of the time unless they have a need. We do not always know what that need is, but when a children throws themselves on the ground and has a tantrum, something's happening. The kid's not just being a bad kid, right. And so if we don't address that, if we don't comfort that, if we don't and there's lots of ways to parents so I'm not here to say, right, always pick them up and hold them. My daughter-in-law is incredible, um, in the way that she parents and has taught me tons, you know, because she's so good at being able to recognize things. But you know it's, it's this.
Speaker 2:Attachment usually gets broken when needs aren't met. If a child cries and they're never soothed, they're not comforted, but maybe they do get fed. So you know, they may get their needs met in this area, but they're not getting their needs met in that area and it gets incredibly confusing. Well, you know mom or dad or sibling, you know they play with me, but then they do this to me too. Or they might feed me, but then they don't pick me up when I'm crying. Or they pick me up all the time when I'm crying, but, man, I go to bed hungry and I'm starving to death. You know, it could be any combination of anything, but the child doesn't have a way to process that, because they're developing Okay.
Speaker 3:Got it. We also talked about disorganized attachment and that's when caregivers like you were just mentioning right, Our source of comfort and fear. So that's that abusive right. And then the child kind of lacks a clear strategy for safety, Right, Right.
Speaker 2:And connection Right, and then the child kind of lacks a clear strategy for safety.
Speaker 3:Right, right and connection Right, yeah. And then we we did mention I know you talked about to how trauma affects attachment Right, and when trauma we were mentioning disrupts that early bonding, then that internal belief system and all of those things that develop early on are shaped around like you were talking about survival right Rather than trust in a parent Right.
Speaker 3:So we mentioned, we mentioned that, we talked about that and we talked about how that affects not only their ability to connect emotionally and spiritually, but it also results in all of the things that we talked about. You know the insecurity, the relationship dysfunction with, with others, and then and then I was going to say, obviously, but most importantly, that mistrust toward God, because if I've, if I've not received that, if I've received, you've received disorganized or inconsistent care and I've developed that internal belief system then, any parent right, any father right when we talk about God as our father, then any father is going to.
Speaker 3:There's that belief system that any father is going to behave the same way. God is my father and he's not going to be consistent. I mean that's the internal monologue. That happens sometimes.
Speaker 2:Yeah and again. All this is so subconscious. People are not really aware. They're just reacting, and universally, I think everybody has heard that God is good, and so, when their experience doesn't match that, they immediately go back to the way they cope because of the abandonment, rejection wound All of which, you know, wounds, mostly most attachment styles in this setting are going to lead to either an abandonment or a rejection wound. You want to, yeah, so and then and and and.
Speaker 3:healing then from that, or understanding. Uh, this leads to healing from inside out rather than outside in Right, we kind of talked about that a little bit, helping people heal from the root, not just kind of manage the symptoms of what's happening to them.
Speaker 2:So I want to just sort of quick talk to the audience about.
Speaker 2:You know, if you don't know yourself well, it's hard to sort of put all of this together. But any kind of trauma big T trauma, little t trauma is going to cause a person to feel rejected, abandoned, fearful, distrusting, and all of those begin to shape the way we see ourself and which leads to shame, and shame is an identity crisis. It's really an identity issue because now, you know, because of what I didn't get, what needs't get met, the original design God had for us when we're a kiddo got interrupted by the enemy through trauma, and now has completely distorted our sense of self Right. And so it starts with you know, our needs don't get met. We begin to form this belief system about who we are or who we're not Right, and that belief speaks to identity this is who I am. And then all of that funnels down into our emotional system and our emotions then are what we behave out of. So our coping mechanisms are actually behavior patterns that are rooted in our emotions, that are rooted in our ultimate belief system of ourself.
Speaker 3:Right, and you're talking about that, talking about the different fears of abandonment and rejection, about that, talking about, um, the different fears of of abandonment and rejection, uh, which is part of shame it is, is is closely tied to shame, right, um, and that was kind of what we talked about in part two about, uh, fear, broken attachment, uh, and trust. So when you mentioned that fear of abandonment and rejection, um, there's also that fear, right, of harm, right, a fear of one of the things that I kind of was looking at our show notes and we didn't really talk about it a whole lot but the fear of being unseen or forgotten. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right, do I matter? Right, right, you know. Fear of abandonment, says are they going to leave me? Right. Fear of rejection says am I good enough? Right, right, which is very common, right, uh, feeling not being good enough, that that goes to a whole, uh wide range of feelings, right I'm not enough right.
Speaker 3:I'm not enough right yeah, and then the fear of harm says you know, will I be hurt, right. And then, of course, the fear of being unseen and forgotten is like, do I even matter, right, right, and that leads to kind of a framework for relationships, and we talked about when fear becomes that framework. We talked about the how we kind of interact. So we talked about hypervigilance, right, which is I call it always reading the green, which is a golfing term, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was reading the room. Yeah, right.
Speaker 3:Reading the room Right and I want to address something real quick I know, you're going to go further.
Speaker 2:But hypervigilance can also be a really good thing because what it teaches a person is discernment, right, when you're hypervigilant because of negative reasons, you also become very discerning and sometimes that discernment is viewed through a negative lens. But when God comes in and restores that and heals that, you get to keep all of the talents you learned through survival and God begins to show you discernment through His lens.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's that, I guess, I just wanted to add that, really quick. Right. So going back to talking about the whole person, then if in our spirit right we've learned that hypervigilance, when God fills our spirit to save us, then that working of His spirit with our hypervigilance right is a good thing. Yeah, no, that's perfect. We talked about control. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right Avoiding hurt through perfectionism or withdrawal. I see that you know just as a person going to church. Right we see that in perfectionism, if I am perfect, then the church will love me right. If I am perfect, then God. And sometimes when we think, okay, if I am perfect, then the church will think I'm good, right, the church will love me, then we. We translate that. People translate that sometimes as if the church loves me, then that must mean god loves me too right right, but in reality there's that disconnect with the lord right there.
Speaker 2:They're still very much dependent on their value coming from someone else's opinion of them, right, instead of our value coming from god's opinion of us it's that and that's human nature. But but it's also um, it's also just a part of a person that has not been healed yet and it's part of that.
Speaker 3:That external referencing right, that's the term I was, that was kind of come to my head there uh, that external referencing of looking at and saying, okay, if everybody else thinks I'm good, then I'm good. We also talked about defensiveness, right. Yes A lot of that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, using distance, and one thing that we had again in the show notes, which we can put up also in the description of this once we're done with part three here using distance or aggression to self-protect. Talk a little bit about what you see when you talk about distance or aggression to self-protect.
Speaker 2:Yeah, john Gottman would call it stonewalling. Stonewalling, yeah, and distance is just a complete disconnect and that can happen for a lot of reasons, but ultimately someone is trying to control the situation. Distance is just a complete disconnect and that can happen for a lot of reasons, but ultimately someone is trying to control the situation. And I'm going to control this situation by distancing myself and not giving you access to me. And I see aggression as bullying and I see it so frequently. Which is all of this frequently. Which is all of this?
Speaker 2:You know, we talked about this last time. It's all very intertwined with so much of what we do in therapy. But you know, violation of boundaries, because love really will show up and respect a person. You know love will really say you know, okay, you're asking me to lower my tone. I'm going to lower my tone because you're not feeling comfortable. But when someone is super defensive, number one, they're not accountable and they won't take responsibility. So immediately, my ability to trust you is out the window because we can't communicate and we can't connect is out the window because we can't communicate and we can't connect. And if somebody is aggressive, they're also taking control of the situation and bullying the other person because why it works. If I puff out my chest and I start yelling and screaming, the average person is going to back up and say, okay, this doesn't feel safe. At least subconsciously, they're going to feel that way and they're going to go the opposite direction, which is exactly what that person wants them to do, because they want to take the pressure off of themselves in that situation.
Speaker 3:And yeah, when you mentioned Gottman Iman uh, I was talking, I was, I was thinking automatically in my head uh, one of the uh four horsemen I think he calls it right Of of communication and stonewalling is one of them, uh, which is excellent, and I use that when I when I talk with couples um. I use the four horsemen a lot, talking about you know the the negative things that we do that affect communication between between couples. I use I use that a lot. It's very, very good.
Speaker 2:And I, and so just real quick, I want to interject in this. So I tell clients all the time if I'm angry at you, but let's say you walked up and you hit me in the face, right, I have a very good reason to be angry and you're probably going to get hit back, but my emotions belong to me and so if I'm angry, that should be a red flag to me that something's going on with me. So if a person is defensive and if a person is aggressive, that should be the first red flag that something's going on with them. You know, and and um, we should be able to look at that. But going back to the fact that most people don't take the time to look inward, they don't take the time to look at themselves, they just justify. You know well, you shouldn't have said it to me that way.
Speaker 2:Your tone was wrong. You know all of the pushback and blame instead of being able to come to the table and say, hey, and you know, as Christians we're all guilty of this like because people are people, and so, even though God cleans up the inside, I feel like a lot of Christians compartmentalize. I am this when I'm at church and I feel the Lord and everything is good, and then you go home and now you have to apply all of these things, which is where the fruit of the Spirit comes in, but we haven't really learned how to do those things because we haven't taken the time to look at ourselves, we haven't taken the time to address our own childhood and the hurts in life that caused us to turn to the Lord in the first place, and so I think this is the place where a lot of people see hypocrisy, and it's it's not really hypocrisy, it's just ignorance. They just haven't fully allowed God to work in all four quadrants of their being Right.
Speaker 3:Right, and I think, when you were talking about compartmentalizing, I think that's something that happens regardless of what denomination you're in, or you're just when you come to church, right, and I think sometimes that, um, we, specifically when talking about anger and talking about how it's, you know, I call it kind of like that, that dashboard indicator, that something is up, right. Yeah, um, and I think sometimes, as believers, what we do is we we're and um, which is okay, you know, as long as we, and that's where we stop. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right, be angry. So if I'm angry, but if I don't sin, then I'm okay. Well, yes, that's what the scripture says, but you know what else is true, right? So there's something else underneath that that's causing that anger. Um, I may not sin because of my anger, right? So sometimes we go, okay, I'm angry but I'm not going to sin. Okay, turn the page. End of story, go to the next chapter, right? But really it's kind of like God's like no, no, no, no, wait, wait, wait. You want to think about why you're being angry also to avoid that in the future.
Speaker 2:And anger is a secondary emotion, and a lot of people have heard that. I had a professor one time tell me it was a secondary emotion to hurt and helplessness, and I really find that true. But I want to add a couple other things. It's also a response to injustice, and so when things happen to us that's not fair literally not fair Because there is right, there is wrong, there are moral laws, there are civil laws, there are things that are just unjust, and so when a person is dealing with injustice, when they have been hurt, when they are helpless, you know that's the kid whose parent beats them up. They can't do anything about it, but take it.
Speaker 2:You know there is a lot of that that results in anger, because anger gives me a sense of control. When I feel helpless, I need to not feel helpless. When I feel hurt, I need a release, I need an expression for that, and so anger is such a really great tool for a person to use, but if left unchecked, it can lead to suicide, it can lead to murder and I mean I see it and it can lead to bitterness, in a spiritual context where bitterness will kill your soul and prevent you from ever getting close to God. So that's just a little extra where anger is concerned, because we do have a generation right now, especially of boys and men that are very angry because for some reason anger feels masculine and it gives a very false sense of masculinity and strength when it is exactly the opposite. And if you think about how hard it is for a man to cry and be vulnerable or to be angry, which one is the hardest?
Speaker 3:Yeah, they're going to pick the angry button. Guys do that, right, Right.
Speaker 2:But the hardest thing is for a man to be vulnerable and cry Right. So which one is really strong? Not being angry Right? That's the weakest because that's the easiest Right.
Speaker 3:Because when we think we're controlling the situation, we're really illustrating to everyone around us that we are out of control.
Speaker 2:Correct yeah, correct yeah For people who know how to see that Right.
Speaker 3:Right, but again, it's one of those things, just as so, just as all these coping mechanisms kind of develop right over time to where we don't even think about it.
Speaker 2:Right, it's automatic.
Speaker 3:It's instinctive and one of these, and it's the same thing.
Speaker 2:on the positive side of it, right, it's like we have to develop these things so that eventually it becomes a second nature to us. Yeah, my previous relationship used to say, which was very helpful. I also punched him in the face once because he wouldn't back off, which thank goodness he did not hit me back. That was a moment of weakness. But he used to say to me hey, can we start over? Yep, can, can we have a do-over? And you know, I've always admired that about him because, um, I was so defiant and prideful. I would rather someone punched me in the face then. Uh, then for me to swallow my pride and be vulnerable. But he was able to really come to the table and say, hey, I think you heard me wrong. Could we just start over? And um, that helped a lot because I was able to meet him there and and that wasn't easy, but you know it takes strength to be able to do that yeah, One of the things I talk about when I talk to couples is those repair attempts.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, that's a perfect example of a repair attempt is, and I say, hey, conversations that start off negative are probably not going to finish positive. Right, they're going to finish how they started off. Yes, probably not going to finish positive, right, they're going to finish how they started off, yes, so if you find yourself starting off a conversation like you never take out the trash. So here's what we're going to talk about, here's what we're going to talk about, right, you're always lazy, you're always doing this kind of thing. So conversations that start like that are not going to end with but I love you, right, right, they're going to start off. If they start off negative're gonna end negative. And so I say, hey, do that.
Speaker 3:Exactly what what you were talking about is that pause, right, um, sometimes when I, sometimes I direct community theater, sometimes in my spare time, right, and so, uh, one of the cast members goes hey, do you realize that every time you want the scene to stop because you want to interject something, you do this little hand motion and and I'm like what it is is, it's the remote control in my hand, right, and I'm pushing the pause button and so I tell everybody on stage I'll go hold up and I'll do this little, this little pause button, uh maneuver thing with my hand. Looks like I'm giving them a thumbs up, but I'm not. I'm trying to uh pause. And so the scene stops and I interject as a director. Sometimes in life it's like you got to hold the pause button, right, you got to go. Okay, you know what?
Speaker 3:This did not start off very well. You're not getting the best version of me right now and I'm not getting probably the best version of you. Maybe let's pause on this, let's come back five minutes later, 10 minutes later. I'm going to go for a drive, but I am coming back, right, and we will revisit this. Right, it's when that separation happens, where there's no front loading of hey, this is why this is happening, right, I'm going to come back. When that doesn't happen, then it's like, well, they're avoiding me. Yeah, distrust, right, trust is just completely broken.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so with that lens, how we view God is really going to be hampered, because if we're not able, if we get angry and defensive and aggressive, we're not going to be able to handle correction or we're not going to be able to handle a loving word that is actually for our good. That would, you know, help us to heal from some of these things, you know. And that's when people get mad at the preacher and, you know, gr us to heal from some of these things. You know, and that's when people get mad at the preacher and, you know, grumble and complain, and it's generally because there's something within them that is not wanting to be accountable or responsible to what they need to do, and most of the time it is because they were accused all the time of something, and so when you're accused a lot of things, true or false, it creates that defensive posture and so we really have to separate, you know, which takes a lot of intentionality. We really have to separate. Okay, you know, this is not my parent, this is not my ex.
Speaker 2:This is really, you know this person actually really loves me. I tell, I tell customers or clients all the time you got to remember you love this person. You got to remember you chose to do life with this person. Because that is generally going to be on the back burner. And if we put that on the front burner okay, wait a minute what would this look like through a lens of love? We can typically kind of lower our defenses and come to the table and the same with God, if I can remember, wait, god loves me. My pastor actually is here for my good to shepherd me, you know.
Speaker 2:Is that really their intention? Or am I mishearing it because of my wounds Right?
Speaker 3:And there's a lot of people that maybe have fallen away from their faith that might be listening to this in that exact same position right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And cause. We talked about how that, you know, last time, I think in episode two, we talked about how that broken attachment, that fear, can influence how we see ourselves, how we see others, but then ultimately, how we see God, and we see fear distorts that view of God. Is what we're kind of talking about, and God is seen as distant, he's seen as punitive. God is seen as trustworthy or untrustworthy, rather, and we fear that intimacy with God, even while you were talking about kind of that little addition to that statement was you were talking about even while longing for it, right, right, and that was one of the things that we talked about in episode two.
Speaker 3:We talked about what you know fear blocks healing. It prevents that deep emotional connection with others, like I was just talking about, leads to avoidance or vulnerability. It reinforces that cycle of shame, anxiety, isolation from others. But then we started talking about perfect love, casting out fear, god's love being consistent. I think it was attributed to Benjamin Franklin, who said the only thing in life that is consistent is death and taxes. I think that's the statement, but I would go a little bit further and say the only thing really that is consistent in life is God's love.
Speaker 2:Amen yeah.
Speaker 3:And as we receive that type of love, all that other fear begins to I'm going to say not overnight, but it begins to dissolve.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when we take a step to trust, take a step to gamble on God. Really, you know, yeah.
Speaker 3:That intentionality, yeah, and that fear gets replaced by trust.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:That was kind of where we ended up in episode two.
Speaker 2:Yeah and yeah. So with attachment, with any sort of you know, and I would say you know this is not statistically correct, but I would say pretty much humanity as a whole really struggles with fear and trust. You know, if you've lived life at all, fear shows up and I think that's the number one tool the enemy uses against people a lot it's not the number one, but it's pretty up there and our ability to trust others, because ultimately we're afraid that we're going to get hurt. You know so, yeah, so God's perfect love to cast out fears, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And when that I was listening to a podcast and I actually wrote down the scripture. A very famous preacher was talking about this and one of the things that he brought up was John 15 and 9. And I actually wrote it down for myself and kind of to have here. And he the scripture that says as the father has loved me, jesus is talking to his disciples as the father has loved me, so I have loved you. And when we receive that love, you know, from him, it begins to kind of abate everything else and we allow that love to come into our spirit. Yeah Right, it begins to work on all of the other things that we need help with.
Speaker 2:Right, right, um, but today.
Speaker 3:Uh, we wanted to kind of as part. Of course, we have spent quite a bit of time kind of recapping, but I think we've recovered, I think it was good.
Speaker 3:yeah, We've covered a lot of really good stuff and brought some things out that we didn't bring up in parts one and two, right. But today what we're going to talk about is where the enemy is at work in abuse and trauma, right, right. From a biblical perspective, from a biblical lens, how the enemy uses trauma. You know that we talked about especially, particularly rather in childhood, to kind of disorient, distort our identity, disrupt attachment to others, ourselves to God Right. Disrupt attachment to others, ourselves to God right. And how it hinders a person's relationship with God, because ultimately that's the goal of the enemy to cut off communication, to cut off that relationship with God. Because he knows, the enemy knows that if that happens, then everything else is easy from his perspective, right, right.
Speaker 2:And that's where the backslider's living Right, exactly Because there's a few different types of backsliders those who love God but have been hurt by the church, those who love God but just don't want to go back to their childhood church because they have bad memories or whatever. And then there are those who are angry at God and those who think that God didn't show up for them, and those who feel like they've gone too far for God to forgive them.
Speaker 3:Which is a lie.
Speaker 2:Which is a complete lie, right, but that belief can be so strong, so strong, and so that that's why we're addressing this, you know, because, again, we're reaching for people who are disconnected from their relationship with the lord and wanting them to reconnect. And what we're trying to explain is that all of this where you are or where you're not with God is so intricately woven in how and what happened to you and how you see yourself, from birth all the way to whatever place you find yourself in life with, and even me, and even you, kelly, you know, I mean, in the last probably 11 and a half years, god has probably brought me further than I've ever been in my life, you know, and even though I was striving, even though I was studying and reading, the last 11 years it's really been a turnaround, almost 12 now. But we're always ever evolving, and what God is always trying to do is expose what's in us, what's been buried, what's been wounded, and there are times when I've been in prayer. This happened several years ago at church. I bet you this happened 15, 18 years ago.
Speaker 2:I was down praying towards the front of the church and I was just praying and, all of a sudden, the Lord gave me a picture of my son as a little baby, probably two years old. He just gave me a picture of my son at that age and when he did, I just wept for the pain I felt of what happened, you know, back then. And I heard the Lord say I haven't forgotten, and in that moment he was bringing up to me pain that had been so deeply buried when I, you know, when we got divorced. And so you know, the lord never forgets, and when he does bring those things up to expose what's in us, he's trying to heal it, right, you know. But it's got to come up, it's got to come out, right. So where is the devil at work in our wounds?
Speaker 3:yeah. So, uh, number one we're distorting, he's distorting, the enemy is distorting the image of God. So God's design is that each person, each child, each person bears the image of God right and has that inherent value because of it. And the enemy's attack is he introduces obviously we're talking about introducing shame. So he introduces shame, confusion, identity damage.
Speaker 3:I think I mentioned in the first episode where every attack that the enemy came to Jesus when Jesus is first starting his ministry, right, every attack says you know, if you are the son of God, right, if you really are who you say you are Right. If you are this person, say you are Right. If you are this person, then do this right. It's that if-then statement that he's using in all three of these attacks against Jesus. And I think it's interesting to look at also, is that Jesus' response to that is not some declaration, it's not some.
Speaker 3:I mean he could have easily said anything at that point, right, he could have said before Abraham was I am so who, are you right? He could have said anything like that, but what he actually uses is the word of God back. That's why I think it's important to looking at this from even when we find ourselves in a spot where we might be falling away from our faith or falling away from we think we're falling away from God. Right, we feel that way, we feel that separation. I think that even in those moments, to always have the word of God close to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you're not going to church anywhere, read your Bible, yeah exactly I mean read your Bible. God will speak. That word is alive.
Speaker 3:Because I mean we talk about too in Genesis, chapter 1, we know the scripture God's design was God. Created man in his own image, in the image of God Genesis 127, created he him male and female, created he them. So that attack from the enemy wants to come against your identity in God, who you are, just like he did with Jesus he talks about we talked about also I want to talk about shame real quick.
Speaker 2:Yeah, go for it. So I give this analogy when people don't always know it. We hear the word shame also a big buzzword, but how it's connected to your identity is, and some of you guys may know this. Guilt says I've done something bad, I feel bad about what I've done. Shame says I've done something bad, I am done. Shame says I've done something bad, I am bad.
Speaker 2:So let's say an alcoholic, for example, they've had a behavior pattern of substance use and now their identity is I'm an alcoholic or I'm a drug addict, and that's the lens that they see themselves in, and so everything in life is based on that. And if I'm going to go out and rob a bank, I rob a bank. I make a mistake and I hopefully learn a lesson from that Versus. I rob a bank, I'm a bank robber. My identity is now I'm a criminal for the rest of my life, right. And so the devil attacks our identity, and we see this particularly in the trans culture, and I'm not trying to be political here, but I have personally known and seen people commit suicide and I am very, very who have been in that demographic, and so I have a deep, deep passion for that community, for them to understand the identity piece. Because when the devil can confuse identity, you have no grounding, you have no tether back to the Lord and the next step he comes to still kill and destroy.
Speaker 2:And and I think it's alarming how much our LGBTQ community is dying at a rapid pace. So identity affects all sorts of things. Even as a backslider that becomes an identity, right, because I leave church, I cut my hair, I leave church, I wear pants and makeup, or I leave church and I become a drug addict, or I become a prostitute, or you know, we said before in other episodes, when you're a backslider it's anything goes, because you already know that you're sinning and so you already feel like, oh, I might as well just do it all. But a backslider can be an identity and a label that we wear too, and yet that is not who God says we are, and we have to work really hard at realigning our given identity that the enemy tries to give to us with what identity God says we are. So okay, sorry.
Speaker 3:No, I want to talk about that realignment section that you were talking about, the realignment piece. Sometimes shame causes us, prevents us from hearing from God in certain moments in our lives. Right, and sometimes and when I say hearing I mean we can actually hear someone speak a sermon or a message, or we hear a song, or whatever the case might be that would move us, that would move us right. And once we start to feel ourselves being moved right, that shame piece kicks in and says no, no, no, no, no, Something's wrong with you. You might as well not even reach out. Might as well not even respond. Might as well, not even because of all of this other stuff, right?
Speaker 2:And that's the devil, that's the intrusive thought speaking.
Speaker 3:That's not you Exactly.
Speaker 2:But you've just grown accustomed to listening to that voice for so long that you believe it. And that is the power of intrusive thoughts, is it becomes a belief. But the Bible says casting down every imagination. Sorry, I got so passionate right there. Casting down every imagination that exalts itself against the knowledge of God because intrusive thoughts. That is the accuser of the brethren lying to you about who you are in God when that comes in, especially if you're sitting in a church service.
Speaker 3:Especially, and all of those things, all of those thoughts that are coming to us, when it boils down to it is condemnation, self-condemnation, condemnation from the enemy. And there's a difference between when you're sitting in church, even listening to a message or listening to a song, and you feel that unction, right, that's the drawing of the Lord. God does not push, he doesn't prod, he doesn't force, he's gentle. God is gentle and he draws. God always draws. And I think there is the difference between for us to kind of identify and go oh yeah, this is the difference is there's a difference between condemnation and conviction. Condemnation says I am bad, right, right, right. Conviction says come to me.
Speaker 2:I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I never want to do that again. That's conviction. And conviction also.
Speaker 3:Not only is there that, piece of it, but it's the conviction of God that draws us back to Him. Yes, this has happened. I know where to go as a result Not back to shame, but towards God.
Speaker 2:Right To be able to receive His love and forgiveness, right To be able to receive his love and forgiveness, right, yeah. So for anyone out there, if you deal with condemnation, if you deal with a lot of guilt and self-deprivation, deprecation, start making a list of everything that you're believing, because the enemy is speaking to you and you've owned it as your own voice, you've owned it as your own thoughts, you've owned it as your own brain talking to you, and it is not because it is exactly opposite of what God says you are. So start making a list, be aware, become more aware of whatever those thoughts are and pay attention.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because the good. Actually we are really good at as humans. We are really good at making that negative list right About ourselves. I don't have this, I don't have that. We're really good at making that negative list and we've lived with it and that's how our, our human nature is right. It's really difficult to go okay, let's draw a line down that list and on the other side, let's write the good things, what we do have, what is going right for us, what we do have that is productive, that is beneficial for others, that is all these other things.
Speaker 3:I've talked to people before and said you know, people have a long list of you know what's wrong, right. And then I go okay, well, let's just right here in our session, let's talk about what you have going on, you know, do you have your master's? Yeah, you know. Do you own your own business? Yeah, how long have you been married? 35 years, you know. So we go on all these things and I'm going okay. So all of these things that you're telling me, all these positive things, are directly contradicting all the other stuff that's in the other column. And then to see sometimes the look on people's face sometimes it's like it's that aha moment, right.
Speaker 3:It's like oh, okay, this balances that out Okay, and it's kind of like a way for us to kind of go I can move forward from this right. I don't have to accept all this stuff that I've carried around for so long.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, and that's such a simple practice is. It is actually gratitude and thankfulness. You start looking at what you know, what you do have, what is left. Maybe you have you know, like me, I've been divorced. Maybe you have had that. But what's left? You know what else is. Maybe you have you know, like me, I've been divorced. Maybe you have had that. But what's left? You know what else is good about you. Are you loving? Are you compassionate? Are you gentle? Are you, you know, intentional? Are you hardworking, like? There's so many qualities you know, but we're taught oh, that's just being conceited. You shouldn't do that. No, the Lord wants us to know who we are, because he created us Right and he's placed everything in us that we're going to need to live for him and to do the work of him. So it is critically important that we start paying attention to what is good.
Speaker 3:Yeah, another way that the enemy kind of works against us is kind of perverting the role of authority in our lives. Romans talks about this in Romans 13, verse 1 through 4. I'm just going to read through this really quick. I have my Bible on my phone, just like everybody else on the planet now. But let every soul be subject unto the higher powers.
Speaker 3:Paul's writing, or the writer of Romans, who is most likely Paul, for there is no power but of God. The powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever, therefore, resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God, and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation, for rulers are not a terror to good works but to the evil. And then Jesus even spoke and says in Matthew 18 and 6, but whoso shall offend one of these little ones? Talking about the children that were coming to him right, which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck and that he were drowned into the depths of the sea. So God's design is that parents should reflect that protective nature and nurturing nature of God right, that authority. That's in our lives that we learn when we're very young that they are, they are the authority in our lives.
Speaker 3:My dad was a Marine.
Speaker 2:For good for good. For good for good.
Speaker 3:And my dad taught me a great work ethic. Um, and I think out of his outflow, dad, if you're watching, I remember. So I remember him teaching me hey, you got to get up in the morning, you got to get up and you got to do whatever it is you're going to do. You know, even when I was preaching and it's like you know, you got to get up, you got to study, you got it. I mean, he didn't tell me this, but that's as a result.
Speaker 2:You learned it.
Speaker 3:That's why I learned it Because what he would do was when I was a kid. I would be laying in the bed just wanting to sleep and, military Marine style, he would walk into my room and flick the lights on and off and he'd say come, say no, come on, it's time to get up. And so, as a result of that, though, I learned a good work ethic.
Speaker 2:I bet you learned to make your bed in the morning too, and how to make my bed.
Speaker 3:But that is God's design, so that parents are that authority in our lives, that protective, that nurturing nature in our lives, that protective, that nurturing nature. But then of course, the enemy's attack is to break that right, so that caregivers are broken and they're used to instill fear, they're used to instill mistrust, hatred toward authority. And then that hatred toward that parental authority sometimes translates into and I'm sure you've seen it translates into that hatred for God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, rebellion, yeah. So I think that's that's great and this is how we respond. So, um, let's say you had that caregiver that was super authoritarian. Um, a kiddo. I want to use myself and my sister as an example. Um, not that my, my mom or dad were authoritarian, but there's rules in homes, right. And when you grow up in church, then there's additional rules in homes. And so when you're a kiddo and you don't understand some of those rules, or you, you know, in your development, have questions.
Speaker 2:You know, in our environment of our church culture, there was so much that was just sin and we did, and my mom and dad were first generation Christian Pentecost, so they didn't even have the full revelation or understanding. They were just doing what the church told them. And so when it came to us, they were just doing what the church told them, and so when it came to us, we were just doing what our parents told them. And so my sister's response was she's the oldest and she responded obediently and she did what she was told. She didn't ask a lot of questions, she just kind of followed the rules. Well, I did not. I had questions and I still have questions. I'm the question asker. It's so funny. My daughter-in-law told me one day. She said, maybe don't ask so many questions.
Speaker 2:And I'm like oh dagger to to the heart. I don't know how not to do that. Yeah, but she was so right because, you know, sometimes it can be too much. But I was such a inquisitive and curious child and I've remained that in my adulthood that I just ask a lot of questions. And so I asked questions and when I didn't like the response, I became very rebellious, and so my rebellious nature led me to a place where I didn't trust authority.
Speaker 2:I didn't trust people, I didn't. You know, you can tell me what you think, but I'm not going to believe you. I'm going to figure it out for myself and then I'm going to do what I want for myself. You know, because I didn't trust anything by the time I got into my teen years, because things did not make sense for me intellectually, they didn't click, and I didn't know how to deal with that because I was a kid, and so people that grow up, they can respond that's a fight, flight or freeze. You know I was a kid, and so people that grow up, they can respond that's a fight, flight or freeze.
Speaker 2:I was a fighter, I was defiant, I was rebellious. My sister was not, she was obedient, she was, dare I say, passive, and I mean passive in the fact she didn't voice her concerns or her thoughts, she just was dutiful and so you know. So that could really hinder our ability to connect with leadership and our ability to connect with God, because ultimately we just don't trust. We trust ourself, and the Lord quickly taught me I was fallible, you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, and my wife is. I clearly married up in the relationship and she is the rule follower. She's the one that will do it in the same way as your sister, and I tend to be the one that is questioning, sometimes the lie. You are unlovable, it's your fault, god abandoned you. That is one of the ways that the enemy kind of begins to sow into our spirits right and kind of give us those core wounds or those core beliefs that we carry throughout life, especially if you've been in black sheep Right. Exactly John 8, 44 says Jesus talking to the Pharisees you are your father, the devil. He is a liar and the father of it.
Speaker 3:And so these lies kind of begin, not kind of. I say kind of a lot because anyway that's my personality, but these lies begin to kind of. I said it again.
Speaker 2:It's okay, you just flow.
Speaker 3:It begins to form I'm not going to say kind of it begins to form these internal strongholds right. Yeah right that get replaced by God's truth. Right.
Speaker 3:And part of if you find yourself falling away from your faith or even if you are in church. One of the ways is we're kind of trying to reverse that right when his lies replace God's truth. Now we want to kind of go back the other way. We want his truth to replace, you know, god's truth to replace his lies, right? That's what we're kind of aiming for, right, right. One of the ways that the enemy attacks is severing safe attachments.
Speaker 3:You know, one of my favorite psalms that you have here in our show notes here is Psalm 27 and 10. When my father and my mother forsook me, this is the part that I like the Lord will take me up. You know, paul writes in 2 Timothy 2, he said, you know, at my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me. And then he says this this blows my mind. Paul's awesome. But he says he says all these things he talks about Alexander the coppersmith, all these kinds of things that happen, he says. Nevertheless, he said, he says I pray God that it not be laid to their charge.
Speaker 3:So, he says all these things? He says that my first answer. In other words, when God first called me, no man stood with me, but all men forsook me, never mind, he wrote a huge portion of the New Testament. So the guy that nobody stood with ends up writing a majority of the New Testament. First of all, no man stood with me. I pray God that it not be laid to their charge.
Speaker 3:then he says nevertheless, god stood with me right so the lies that were put into me or said about me, right through things that happened, through things that happened to him. He says nevertheless, god stood with me right, and he shall deliver me out of every evil. Work Right.
Speaker 2:And he really does. Yeah. You know when we can cross that divide and step across that threshold to be curious about God again and to try him on again. He does show up in such a powerful way and does, you know, do exactly what you said.
Speaker 3:Right, because God's design is, for you know, human attachment prepares the soul to attach to God Right. And then the strategy of our enemy is to break human trust. That also blocks that spiritual trust, as well, right, right yeah.
Speaker 3:Um, another way that the enemy begins to uh uh, be at work in our lives is blocking spiritual perception in our lives. So that ability to be curious, that ability to be perceptive of the Spirit, 2 Corinthians Paul writes again in 2 Corinthians 4 and 4, he said In whom the God of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe, not lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. So it gives, that blocking not provides, but it causes that spiritual numbness, confusion or even aversion that often arises out of that trauma that we talked about before, right, and then Satan blinds the minds and he begins to stir confusion about God's not only nature but his nearness, right, right, how close he is to us. When we talk about blocking that spiritual perception and often arises after trauma how does it affect people that you see that come to you, that talk about these kinds of things, talk about trauma that happened? How does that blocking, that aversion, arise?
Speaker 2:Well, when we talk about numbness and um, an aversion to deal with their trauma, um, that kind of looks like apathy and um, when a person you know they, they just don't want to deal with it and and you can't blame them you know you cannot blame a person for wanting to put that far, far away and disconnecting themselves from the sexual abuse of their father or their parents' murder or whatever. Big, big, big horrible things happen to children and so when they survive it, the very last thing they want to do is go back to it and have to look at it again because they're, in a way, different place in life. Um, but when someone becomes numb and um, and they just have an aversion to dealing with any of it they've just learned to cope with blocking they just block everything that's going to affect them, because one emotion can lead to another emotion.
Speaker 3:The domino that chain effect.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and Brene Brown gives the image of an armored up heart. So she shows this picture that first you have a whole heart, perfect by God, and then, uh, a fractured heart. That's where all of the wounds come in, and then the armor that we place to hold all those pieces together. You know that has to begin to come off, one piece at a time. And so when we, when we prevent emotion from coming in because we don't want to feel anything that was resemble our pain, we also prevent the good coming in.
Speaker 2:So people will often block any emotion, because if I feel good, my capacity to feel bad is also there and they're fearful of that. So when a person is living in that type of state in their life, they're just kind of going through the emotions and just taking the days as it comes. It would be very difficult to connect to God, because God is wanting to connect with you in an emotional way. That's where connectedness comes from, and so I got to be able to let him in, and if I'm not even letting myself in there, I'm sure not going to be able to let God in there, or even a spouse. You know that's where tons of the avoidance stuff is, in avoidant attachment. So it's pretty detrimental to a person's ability to reconnect with God Right and even attempt to see God as something good.
Speaker 3:And there's always that one even later in life. I've spoken with some people that even later in life something traumatic happens, right, people that even later in life something traumatic happens Right, and it's that automatic instinct to to go. You know, I'm putting a wall around everything and not letting anybody in, right, right, that's where we jumped to. And, uh, you know, sometimes people will say that and I'll go hey, you know what that's. I get that.
Speaker 2:That's a natural response, you know it'll send you straight to hell, though.
Speaker 3:But I'll say it's okay to set up a boundary. Just in that wall put a little gate for me. Yeah. Just put a little gate in there. That's great. Open up that little gate so you can control what comes in and out. Right, so that you, it's a boundary thing right, yeah right. Clouden Townsend would say the same thing, right. It's that little gate that allows God in, that allows the good in and keeps the bad out, right, yeah? Right. We also talked about how the enemy produces generational patterns. So we look at-.
Speaker 2:Oh, big subject.
Speaker 3:Big subject. I want to read 2 Corinthians. Uh, let me, let me back up. I want to read, uh, galatians three, 13. So when we, when we talk about generational patterns, um, I often look at this as not like some mystical curse right, that we're talking about, but I look at it as you know, just as I inherited. You know, the theological term that preachers will use is propensity, right, but really, all Propensity to do something Right.
Speaker 3:So all it is is really, you know, just like I inherited dark hair and dark eyes, you know, and light skin from my mom, right, Just as I inherited those things from our parents, we inherit those things from our parents we also inherit the propensity, the ability for certain sins to be predominant in our life, sometimes, Right. Right, but that is the power of the gospel, the power of someone being saved. Is what Paul writes in Galatians right. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law. In Galatians 3.13, being made a curse for us. So on the cross, Christ took everything that would be put upon us. Right, that's what Paul is saying. He says, for it is written for us. For it is written cursed is everyone that hangs on the tree. But the power of the gospel, then, is in 2 Corinthians 5.17,. Right. Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature. Old things are passed away. Behold, all things are become new. So that is the power of the gospel. But abuse often repeats itself in families, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we don't like to talk about generational curses. There are generational curses and generational blessings and you know curse is such a triggering word but if we look at it just in overall family patterns, familiar patterns, you see violence trickle down through generations, right. You see addiction trickle down through the generations grandparent, parent, person. We even see out-of-wedlock births trickle down through generations. We see suicide in generation patterns. We see um gambling in generational patterns and part of this.
Speaker 2:And so it's not just you know the bible uses the term generational curse, but what, what it actually kind of translates to, is bloodline patterns that become. You know we talked about, I think in the first or second episode how nature and nurture form us, so our nurturing family of origin. That is the generational curses. I believe it's biology as well, because of what Brother Logsdon said in episode 14 about how the blood remembers and in epigenetics. You know, I think epigenetics proves generational curses but also proves generational blessings because cellular trauma remembers in the bloodline and so we do see that we are born into families and we, you know, we do have things that are in our bloodline that gets transferred.
Speaker 2:So you know, homosexuality, for example you know people will probably dispute this but comes from either sexual abuse in a family or there is extended generational patterns of homosexuality. That then gets transferred and same, you know, with all of that kind of stuff. But we see it in generational blessings too, right, we have generational Christians, generational preachers, generational wealth, generational health, right, where parents had a lifestyle of healthy eating and fitness. Kids grow up learning how to have a lifestyle of healthy eating or fitness or whatever the case may be. But the bloodline piece is so central to the cross because we're born in sin, so whatever is in our bloodline if you come from a family of gang members and in this area we have that so so much.
Speaker 3:Whatever's modeled in front of you, you're going to carry on. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, right, and usually you can trace it back through more than one or two generations. That's why it's called that. But the cross came to undo all of that. When we get baptized in the name of Jesus, we take on the work of the cross, you know, and we get filled with the Holy Spirit. His blood covers all of that. So, whatever was attached to my bloodline no longer is going to be true for me, right, right, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the power of the cross is there to break all of those things that we have, that are in our lives, that are passed on, that we've either passed on through bloodline or that passed on through. Just hey, I watched my father do this and that looks like what true love looks like, or that's what family looks like, or that's what coping looks like, so I'm going to do the same thing, and so it kind of carries on and perpetuates through that.
Speaker 3:Or I look, I saw, you know, my mom was this, and so I'm going to do this because that's what I saw growing up, and so that must be what real family, that must be what real love looks like. So I'm going to do the same thing, yeah, and then the power of God, the power of the gospel, can break that. We also looked at or not looked at. Looking at how the enemy looks or how the enemy is at work in our lives is fomenting kind of self-destruction. So trauma increases that risk for addiction. We're kind of talking about addiction, suicide, rage, spiritual despair, and the enemy's goal is to steal, like we're talking about.
Speaker 3:We've mentioned several times right, steal, kill and destroy is to steal, like we're talking about we've mentioned several times right, steal, kill and destroy, steal peace, kill identity and destroy any sense or any purpose, any destiny right that someone might have in their lives. And you look at John, chapter 10 and 10, it's right there. You know, the thief cometh not but for to steal, kill and to destroy. I have come that they might have life and that they might have it more abundantly. I think that I enjoy reading the gospel so much because Jesus always balances out. You know, I always tell people, you know why, when you're talking with somebody, having communication with somebody, why accentuate the negative Right and, for example, don't forget to take out the trash. Right, if I tell somebody don't forget to take out the trash, what that person hears is forget, take out trash. Right.
Speaker 3:But if I say, hey, remember today's trash day. Like my wife tells me a lot remember, today is trash day, remember to take out the trash Right right. If you emphasize remember, then it's like I hear remember, take out trash. Okay, I'm probably going to do it Right. If I hear, don't forget, I'm probably going to forget, Right, right.
Speaker 2:And I'm just going to plug. This is a great plug for therapy, because we don't come by all this naturally. We don't learn to speak this way. Naturally we have to sort of unlearn, um, our, our most common instincts, you know, and relearn ways to communicate in a healthy way and in a proper way that invites connection. And so therapy isn't just coming and saying, hey, I have a problem and you're going to fix it for me. I think it's exactly the opposite, you know, it's just to maybe see yourself through a different lens, to where then you can begin to apply that and do the work at home yourself.
Speaker 2:Right, it's it not that, at least in my approach to therapy and your approach, kelly, we're not here to fix anything. We're not here to have an answer that you don't have. We are here to help you see yourself wherever you might be and reframe it for you so that you can take that and say, oh, okay, maybe that makes a lot of sense. I didn't see it that way. And then you got something to work with. And so communication, like it's easy for us to sit here and tell you how to talk, but if you knew my background, like it is a living miracle, I am a living miracle that I even get to do this job. You know that I even get to do this job, you know. But I've had to learn and God, in His grace, has just taught me.
Speaker 3:He is the great teacher you know, and so emphasizing the positive is kind of the hallmark, not always, but kind of how Jesus communicated unless he's talking to Pharisees and other passages, but he always talks about. You know, in this verse of Scripture he talks about how the thief is coming to steal, kill and to destroy, and it's almost like you could put the word but in there, right, and a lot of times we do put that in there when we're quoting this, but it's actually not there. Actually, I almost said it when I was reading it here, but I am come that they might have life and that they might have it more abundantly. So it's that, it's that, it's that I know what the enemy is doing. But here is what I can do in someone's life. Here's what I have come to bring in someone's life.
Speaker 2:And that's what you said earlier, both things being true at the same time. You know, there is always a positive and a negative, and I use the analogy a lot of the seasons, right? If there is winter, there's surely going to be summer, and if there is night, there's always going to be day. It's the dichotomy. And so if there is something bad, there is always going to be something good. But you might have to work a little harder to look for it, because it's not our instinctive nature to just look at the good. Our instinctive nature, because we live in a fallen world, is to look at the bad first. But both are always going to be present if we have eyes to see. And that takes us back to, I think, the last thing is how the enemy blinds our eyes to be able to see the truth about ourself and about God.
Speaker 3:Right, absolutely, because when those things are removed from our eyes Paul talks about the scales were removed from my eyes, in other words, the veil, the thing that got between me and seeing when that thing you were talking about, the veil In other words, the veil, the thing that got between me and seeing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the veil right.
Speaker 3:When that thing you were talking about, the veil earlier in this episode, right? So when that gets removed, then I can see things as they really are, exactly, you know.
Speaker 3:And the Spirit of the Lord God. One of my favorite scriptures is Isaiah 61, 1 through 3, right. One of my favorite scriptures is Isaiah 61, 1 through 3, right. The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me because he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to bind the brokenhearted, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning. That whole section of scripture is one of my favorite because it emphasizes how Jesus came to heal, obviously, the brokenhearted and destroy that enemy, the enemy's work. Right, right, and to set up a new hope. Not set up, but to bring a new hope to mankind. Right, because hope is in the future. Right, right, hope is down the road, something great's going to happen and sometimes, when we're in our present, no matter where we are, that's the message we need.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:Because faith is right now Right, right and, but sometimes which we just learned.
Speaker 2:Which we just learned.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, so hope is down the road, and sometimes I need that message where I am, yeah, right, because what that does is, not only do I have faith that something's going to happen right now I'm going to make a step, but I also have that hope that God's going to be with me on this process. Right, god's going to be with me down this road as I move toward him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I, you know, my heart really goes out to the people who, uh, who have turned away from the Lord and, if not in relationship, or maybe they just are hurt. Um, you know, and this, if you guys see our website or any of our, you know the attachments, the descriptions, our scripture verse is Luke 4.18, that Jesus came to preach the gospel to the poor, to bind up the brokenhearted, to open the eyes of the blind and to set at liberty those that are captive. And to set at liberty those that are captive. And everything that we've talked about in the way the enemy works against a human heart, you know, because of hurt and trauma, is all encompassing in that one scripture, because people will fall into one of those categories.
Speaker 3:Which is a restating. Jesus is restating Isaiah 61, yeah.
Speaker 2:And so people will always fall into one of those categories. You're either dealing with a broken heart, you've believed something and have blindness about your true identity because you believed a lie. Because you believed a lie, or you're captive to a lifestyle of addiction or criminal activity or abuse or just self-harm or whatever it could be, because once you become captive, it really takes deliverance. When Paul was in prison which is what a captive is it took the angel of the Lord to open the prison doors to set him free. When you become enslaved to something, deliverance is required, and that can only come from Jesus, because that means you can't get yourself out of it, you cannot help yourself, it needs. But you have to be able to have the forethought to say I need deliverance, I am a captive to this. To that I mean.
Speaker 2:Pornography, I think, is such a great example of captivity, because pornography is one of those things that affects an alarming rate in women, but definitely males. Right, people become captive to because it has created such a stronghold and they've learned from such an early age that it has become ingrained in who they are, what they are, what they do, how they find their release, how they find validation, and so you know, I personally believe that that particular thing requires deliverance. But you have to be able to recognize your need for deliverance. And so, you know, we read that scripture Luke 4.18, so easily, but we don't sit out and really intricately tweeze it apart and apply it to all the areas of life that people are living. But if you are out there, there, and if any of the things that we have said is resonated with you, I would encourage you to just say a simple prayer and ask God to one Lord, please forgive me, because I need you to hear me. You know I, I, I need you to hear me. You know I need you and I want to find out who you are now.
Speaker 2:I mean, my cousin Keith was sitting in a jail cell and said God, if you're real, I need you to show me. And man God filled him with the Holy Ghost because God will rise, he will rise to the occasion, because he desires to have a relationship. And I think that just praying Luke 4.18 would just do a lot for a person. Because you know, lord, you said that you came to heal the brokenhearted, you came to preach the gospel to the poor. And I am poor. I am poor in spirit. I don't have much in my spirit to offer, or even to believe, but when you begin to pray that, when you really begin to pray, scripture man, the Lord is just going to come in and begin to work on you if you will just be open to let him Right, and he does it.
Speaker 3:When you're talking about Paul being released from prison, my mind went also back to Peter. That's why I was looking up here in Acts, chapter 12. When Peter was released from prison, the church was praying Right, right, and that restoration process as you make the steps, god, or that restoration, that returning process, right, god is going to open every obstacle, but we have to make that step right. He's going to meet us at every obstacle because it says you know, when Peter was released from prison, right, he went to the first gate right or first ward right, and then God took care of that.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:He went out to the second ward God took care of that. Then he went to the iron gate that leads to the city God took care of that. Then he led him two streets past that so he wouldn't be recaptured Right. And then led him straight to the church Right, and then led him straight to the church Right. So as we begin to step, god opens up every obstacle that starts to come our way.
Speaker 2:But again, it's that making that first step and the reason it requires the step is because he gives us free will, right? And Brother Pierce, charles Pierce used to say years ago God is a gentleman. And Brother Logsdon, when he was here, ministered to me and he said to me again God is a gentleman. God is never going to force his will upon us. He's never going to push you to a point you don't want to go. He's going to be willing to take you you don't want to go. He's going to be willing to take you wherever you do want to go.
Speaker 2:But it does require us to engage in the process. He's not going to sit from heaven and just do all the things for us that he's promised to do in scripture. Those promises are real and they are for us. But it requires our participation because it's just like living in a marriage. Every single day I have to I'm not married anymore, but you are and every single day you have to get up and you have to choose. To be intentional with your wife. You have to choose to, you know, give her a kiss and and pray with her and tell her that you love her and call her throughout the day, because it is a relationship.
Speaker 3:It's easy for me to do.
Speaker 2:And so God requires that, because he wants our free will, he wants us. We choose him. He's going to show up every single time. Our inability to take the steps and our inability to choose him is usually rooted in our fear and our distrust of whether or not God's going to show up.
Speaker 2:But listen, I am a high school dropout. I've said that before. I didn't just drop out, I was actually kicked out because I had failing grades. And today I have a master's degree. And that is not because I am so smart. It is because God is so good, because I believed. Until pretty much till I was 28 years old.
Speaker 2:I was the black sheep. I was the black sheep. I was the troublemaker. I'd already had two drunk drivings and I already had a divorce and a child and I had failing events. There was nothing in me to believe that I could actually be a vessel of honor for the Lord, you know.
Speaker 2:But I did have a broken heart and I came to church one day and the preacher preached on Luke 4.18. And in that moment God bound up my broken heart and began the restoration process. It's taken me a long time to get here and I still got a long way to go, and that's the human journey. But you know, again, it isn't because I am so good, it's because God began to reveal to me, when he began to heal me, what he placed in me and you. That rebellion that I had was actually a thirst for truth, and I did not know that until many, many, many years later. It's not an excuse for rebellion, but it is an illustration of how God makes all things good, right, right, but we've got to be willing to take a step. I can't stress that enough for you that are out there. I promise, and if you listen to any of the testimonies on this podcast, taking the first step is the hardest step, right, but God will show up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, every time, every time.
Speaker 2:Kelly, I wanted to end. I don't know if you have anything to add to that, but I wanted to end with a list of names of who God is. Sounds good. The Bible talks a lot about the aspects of God, and so I started with El Roy. I don't know if that's how you say it, el Roy, and that's the God who sees. And that's what you were talking about. Am I even significant? Do I even hold any value? And Hagar said because I won't give you the whole Bible story. And Hagar said because I won't give you the whole Bible story. But Hagar was kicked out of the house of Abraham because she had Ishmael and Ishmael was not the chosen seed that Isaac was. And she said and God came to her and saw her. And she said you are the God that sees. So God sees us everywhere, wherever we are. But do you want to read this Elohim, god the mighty creator? Do you want to go through this Sure?
Speaker 3:Sounds good. Yeah, no. Elohim, god, the mighty creator, emphasizes God's power and God's sovereignty. Yahweh, jehovah, lord, I am who I am. The Lord, I am who I am, I am. He speaks to that in Exodus 3 and 14. Moses is saying they're not gonna believe me. Who should I say?
Speaker 2:And I am, that I am and he is the. I am means whatever I need, whatever it is, right now I have it.
Speaker 3:And notice it wasn't I am. It wasn't I was, I shall be. It was wherever you are right now.
Speaker 2:That's what I am, I'm your healer, I'm your provision, yep. I am your restorer, I am all of these things, yep.
Speaker 3:I don't know, I uh Lord or master, uh, obviously it's significant, signifying uh, lord's, god's Lordship, uh and his authority in our lives and sometimes, you know it's difficult you know we were talking about a lot of different things today and sometimes it's difficult for us as humans to go. You know, hey, hey, maybe I had a negative experience with authority in our lives and it's difficult sometimes to put him in that authority position in our lives. But I think ultimately, when we get to that place and it's a process sometimes but when we get to that place, I think it makes that the struggle, makes putting him in authority over our lives, so much more powerful.
Speaker 2:Right, because he's a trusted authority and as that trusted authority, he's going to fight your battles Right. He's going to protect you, he is going to rescue you, he is going to be all the great things that authority should have represented but did not, yep.
Speaker 3:El Shaddai, god Almighty, and I'll go through some of these as well. Yahweh Rapha, the Lord who heals, that's one of my favorite ones. Exodus 15 and 26 denotes God's power to heal Not only heal physically, but heal spiritually, heal mentally, I think. Sometimes I've, you know, traveling. I traveled for about 15 years full-time evangelizing and, uh, one of the things that I mean, I mean I, you know, I've seen people get out of wheelchairs, wheelchairs. I've seen people, um, you know, I've seen healings. I've seen, you know, I had actually when, when, uh, brother Logsdon was talking about, you know, praying for someone that wanted to have a child. The same thing happened to us when we were evangelizing and a couple came down to the altar and they said you know, we've been trying, it's just not happening. Will you pray for us? And almost the exact same scenario as what he described in revival and prayed for them, forgotten that I had prayed and a few months later, you know, the couple came back to the same church. We were back at the same church and they said, hey, we're pregnant.
Speaker 3:You know, and then, probably several months later, right, we came back to the same church again and they had their child with them. You know, so, the Lord. So I've seen all these things. I've seen, you know, these physical things that God has done. But for me the more I think that I was thinking about this the other day some of the things that probably impact me the most is the spiritual things. Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know, I saw, there was one time we were, we were in a revival down in los angeles and I was, I was preaching and I, you know, sometimes we tell people, you know, you got to look a certain way before you come to god, right, which is I, I don't. You don't have to get clean before you take a shower, right, like brother loxon was saying the other day, right?
Speaker 3:And so this guy had come down and he wanted to receive the Holy Ghost and he had piercings everywhere nose, ears, eyebrows, everywhere and I was like you know what this guy's coming. We talked through repentance. We talked through what it meant. We prayed a prayer of repentance together and I went to put my hand on his forehead to pray for him and as I did that, he stopped me and he goes wait a second. And he stopped in the middle of the altar service there, took everything out. Oh, wow.
Speaker 3:Laid it on the altar, lifted up both his hands and he looked at me. He goes now. I'm ready. Wow. And literally. I put my hand on his forehead and God filled him now I'm ready Wow. And literally I put my hand on his forehead and he got filled with the Holy Ghost. Right there it was, just didn't have to work it up. He was like you know what? Hey, hang on a second. This means something to me, you know, and I I need to lay it down, and lay down what this means to me.
Speaker 3:Right, and he says he just looks at me, he nods he goes, now I'm ready. And he just looks at me, he nods he goes, now I'm ready. Wow. Yeah. So those kinds of things, the Lord that heals those kinds of things to me, those kinds of healings right are the things that stick out in my mind the most. Yahweh Nisi, the Lord is my banner. God gives us victory in battle victory in battle.
Speaker 2:And I think of that, like you know, a neon sign over us. Like you know, in the spirit realm that God is fighting for us and the banner is going before us. It's seen, it's felt, it's known. Without it, you know, being so overt like we are going to have the victory.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm a fan of of history. I love reading about history, specifically roman history and one of the things that, um, when they went into battle you know we see it sometimes in in film and stuff like that but uh, when they went into battle they would carry the banner of the legion right whatever legion there was, you know you, you would see it. It's a red, you know uh flag, that kind of hangs down.
Speaker 3:It has a symbol on the front, an eagle on top, different types of symbols on it, but anyway, depending on the Legion, anyway. So the thing was is in battle, someone would always hold the banner up so that no matter where they were in the battle losing, winning, kind of in between someplace they would always have some place to go back to and regroup and fight the enemy again. So when I hear the Lord is my banner, that's what I think of. No matter where we are in our struggle in life we see the banner.
Speaker 3:The Lord is our banner. We have that common touch point to go back to and go. I need to regroup, I need to see him again. Now I can go back and fight another day. The Lord is my banner. Of course, yahweh Shalom. The Lord is peace. God is the source of all peace. Judges 624.
Speaker 3:He's the Prince of Peace, he's the Prince of Peace, the mighty God, everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace, prince of Peace. He's the Prince of Peace. You know, the mighty God, everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace, yahweh Ra'ah. Some of these, I don't remember how to say.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's good, you don't have to say them all.
Speaker 3:Jehovah and Yahweh is the same it's just different translation. Yeah, the Lord is my shepherd, and then that is the pastoral care and guidance of God, god being our shepherd. There's so many the story of being a shepherd and how the shepherd goes after the sheep and how the shepherd protects the sheep.
Speaker 2:And how the sheep know his voice.
Speaker 3:And how the sheep know his voice and the story of the 99 that Jesus tells. I mean, there's so many things that we could go into about being a shepherd. I think it's no coincidence at all that God calls David, who proved himself first as being a shepherd and then makes him a king.
Speaker 2:And I studied once what sheep meant when I first rededicated my life and I was not surprised, but also surprised that sheep are the dumbest animal they are, and this was in a biblical dictionary that it said that the sheep are so dumb they will run off a cliff without even knowing. They will run to their death off a cliff if a shepherd is not there to reel them back in. And the church is often correlated with sheep and I thought man, lord, what does that really say about us? And, more importantly, what does it say about God that, no matter how dumb we can be in what we do or the decisions we make, we have a shepherd that's always pulling us back, going after us, you know, constantly covering with his mercy and his grace our dumbness.
Speaker 3:And you know, going back to kind of what I was talking about, sometimes we create walls around us and I mentioned to one person I said, just put a little gate in there. Right, yeah. So looking at how a shepherd protects the sheep at night, right yeah. They go into the pen or the little area, the stone enclosure basically, and there's one opening into it and the shepherd sleeps in the opening. Wow, to make sure that the sheep are protected. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And then, of course, jehovah, or Yahweh Sitkanu, the Lord our righteousness, the Lord our righteousness.
Speaker 2:Jeremiah 23 and 6 talks about God's provision of righteousness for us. Yeah, so we hear the word righteousness in Christian circles, but for people who don't always know what that means, righteousness is doing the right thing, doing what is right, and God is a righteous God, which you know. We talk about him being a just, equally just and equally love. You know, when it comes down to being righteous, it's about doing what is right. You know, and so God will right the wrongs in our life, absolutely. There's so many things about God, and I mean he is the healer, he is the wonderful counselor, he is the mighty God, he is the Prince of Peace, he is our refuge, he is our strong tower, and I've told people before, because this is how the Lord taught me how do we know him in these ways, unless there is a need that creates us to?
Speaker 3:know him Unless we experience it right.
Speaker 2:You know, I have to be sick to know him as a healer. I have to be afraid to run to a strong tower. You know, I need him to be my refuge and my strength when I am depleted and empty and I can't see what's in front of me. I mean, there's so many things that the Lord shows up and I have even seen him make a table for me in the presence of my enemy. I have experienced that firsthand and it was so marvelous. It was just so marvelous and I think if we are looking for God's hand in our life, we will find it. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And Brother Arlogson said in one of our episodes look low, and that's what someone taught me. You know, when we cannot always see, if we just start looking at the little things, the simple things, the daily things, you will see the hand of God working in your life, absolutely. So, yeah, so God's plan for us is to restore, you know, absolutely. Restoration is bringing all things together and restoring what the enemy has stolen. And I believe that as we begin to look at ourselves and we begin to address these deeper issues that could be inhibiting us and blocking us from the work that God wants to do in our life, if we just go back to the truth of His Word because he tells us who we are in Him and he tells us who he is to us our choice is to believe it and apply it and walk by faith in that right.
Speaker 2:I may not feel like I'm a daughter sometimes, I may not feel like his promises are yea and amen sometimes, but I can choose to believe it with faith or I can choose to fear it with mistrust, and that's where free will comes in, because both exist, but it's my choice which one I'm going to choose. And so we just learn how to walk this out one day at a time and really practice applying. I'm not going to believe it always, and that's where we don't walk by feelings, we don't walk by sight. That's what the Bible is meaning by that. I can't trust what I feel, because right now I don't feel anything. I have to believe what the Bible says is true, and that's a process. It doesn't happen overnight.
Speaker 3:No, it doesn't. You know, he refathers when you were talking about I don't always feel like a daughter, I don't always feel like a son, but he refathers that and refathers us right, right and establishes that connection again. He renews that connection, restores that identity I think I was talking about in the first episode. Sometimes at the end of prayer I'll just open up my Bible and I'll say God, show me how you see me, because how I see me right now is not very great.
Speaker 3:It's kind of in the negative and so it's part of that other side right, I can either trust or I can be afraid of it, right.
Speaker 2:Takes practice.
Speaker 3:Right. And so I'm like and I tell people it's going to take practice and you're not going to get it right every time, Right?
Speaker 2:And it's okay if you don me and God always comes through in terms of achievement, maybe, and status, and I was allowed to become the things that I aspired to become, that I thought were important, that I thought was valuable, and God is so good in His love for us he allowed me to do that. But, man, of all the things I've had, all the things I've seen, all the places I've been, there is nothing I would never go back to that ever, because it was empty. There's nothing that holds value for me beyond God, except, of course, my family. But God is so much more abundant than these things that we attribute to as value in the world, and I think the best kept secret is the Bible. I think it's a treasure trove of jewels and treasure that, man, no matter where you find yourself, if you will just pick up your Bible and start reading it, the Lord, you will be amazed at what you find in there. I'm amazed, actually.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, so anything else you want to say before we end.
Speaker 3:We've been talking so long. I could talk for another two hours yeah. And when you start talking about this kind of stuff. It's like yeah.
Speaker 2:It just kind of snowballs into so many other things. So if you're out there and you like this kind of content, would you let us know in the comments or reach out to us in email, because we could do more like this. We will continue to interview backsliders and talk about what led them away and their journey back to God, but there is so much more to talk about too in just the Christian journey. So I want to give you guys what would be beneficial to you and where you're at in this place in life, and so we can only know that if you let us know. So our website again is the redeemedbacksliderorg, and also we get all the comments. So please let us know in that, like, follow, share all the good things and until next time. Thank you for watching. We really appreciate it. Bye, thanks everyone.
Speaker 1:We are so glad you joined us. If you have a story of redemption or have worn the label of a backslider, we would love to hear from you. If you'd like to support our ministry, your donation will be tax deductible. Visit our website at theredeemedbacksliderorg. We hope you will tune in for our next episode.
