Beauty For Ashes TRB #31 Alicia Chairez

What if the people meant to protect you became the source of your deepest wounds—and yet grace still found a way to bring you home? Alicia’s testimony is a gripping, compassionate look at church hurt, childhood abuse, and the long road back from the occult, fear, and despair to a sound mind and real freedom. We walk through the moments that shaped her story: early prayer as a little girl, predatory adults hiding in plain sight, rebellion born from secrecy and shame, and a desperate search for identity that led to tarot cards, night terrors, and a suicide attempt interrupted by a voice that said, “Tell your mom.”

We don’t gloss over the hard parts. Together, we untangle the difference between holiness and outward standards, how legalism can become a stumbling block, and why true transformation lasts only when it grows from relationship with God. Alicia explains how deliverance met her in a simple prayer, how sleep paralysis fled at the name of Jesus, and how daily prayer and Scripture began to rewire a trauma-shaped brain. We talk about the “hedge of protection,” not as a threat from a punitive God, but as mercy from a Father who sees the trap ahead and calls us back before it snaps shut.

This is just part of Alicia's testimony. Listen for the rest of the story.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome & Alicia’s Early Story
• 3:45 Childhood Abuse Hidden in Church Life
• 9:20 Predators, Discernment, and Unsafe Churches
• 15:45 Fear, Rebellion, and Juvenile Hall
• 24:10 Identity Crisis and Occult Curiosity
• 30:05 Baptism, Assault, and Collapse
• 36:10 Suicide Attempt, Psych Hold, and Isolation
• 44:00 Witchcraft, Night Terrors, and Spiritual Warfare
• 52:30 Standards vs. Holiness: Removing Stumbling Blocks
• 1:02:20 Deliverance, Medication, and Renewed Mind
• 1:11:10 The Hedge of Protection and Hard Warnings
• 1:20:00 Surrender, Motherhood, and Leaving Abuse
• 1:28:30 Prayer, Intercession, and Coming Home
• 1:36:00 Freedom, Identity in Christ, and Hope

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Welcome to the Redeemed Backslider. Your host, Happy Chest and Christian-face psychotherapist, Redeemed Backslider. This podcast is dedicated to those who have wondered that are ready to return to the life-changing power of grace and freedom.

SPEAKER_01: 0:22

Hi, welcome to the Redeem Backslider. I'm your host, Kathy Chastain. I'm a Redeemed Backslider and I'm also a licensed Christian-based psychotherapist. With me today is Alicia Chavez. I'll let her explain her name too in Spanish. She lives in the Vaccaville area in California. And I'm so glad she uh decided to share her testimony with all of us today. So welcome, Alicia. Thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_04: 0:52

Thank you, Kathy. Um I'm I'm glad to be here as well. And yes, um, part of my testimony is um I was born into Pentecost. I was my mom's miracle child. I actually wasn't supposed to be be here born. The um the testimony behind me coming into the world um was my actually my parents. So my parents are first generation apostolic, I'm second generation. And so um, even growing up in church and being, you know, dedicated, I was dedicated at six weeks old. My mom um almost died having me. It was a struggle for me to, she said it took six trips to the hospital. Um, my grand, like nobody was there when I was born because they didn't know what was gonna happen. And my dad had just been saved. So my dad actually made a promise to God saying that he would never drink because God delivered my dad out of alcoholism. And so um, that's his own testimony. But um, and he made a promise that he said that I would never see him intoxicated, like this baby would never see me intoxicated. I have two older siblings who are 14 years, we're many years apart. That's how you know, that's how um miracles happen because sometimes it doesn't happen altogether, you know. Right, right. Miracles happen spontaneally, right? Um so needless to say, even though I was um dedicated and born in church, I suffered while in church in the sense of um part of my my walk was I've always loved God since I was a little girl. Um I can recall five years old, I was always praying. And it was and it was actually about my grandma. I was very close to my grandmother. My grandmother was not saved, and my grandma got sick with cancer around five years old. I was five. And I started praying for my grandma. Well, that's the same time that my I was abused. So I was I had faced um a traumatic experiences. Um my parents didn't know. My parents, of course, are in church. My mom, she had Bible studies, she was a soul winner. Um and my dad, of course, you know, he would fix the church and everything, but there was abuse that was happening that started by people that were trusted. Um, a relative, and then it opened up more doors to where there was more abuse by other individuals and going to church and um praying, but then carrying those wounds. How old were you when the abuse it started off around five, five, six is when the abuse started. Um and it continued with that particular individual until I was about eight. And at the time I um we my mom, she was with one minister and then she left and they went to another church, like a more independent church. And I, you know, that pastor and his wife, they were good to me. They um I was with their daughters, like Sundays. I would go to their home and you know, um go they would take me out for lunch. Like they were really um loving and they were his, I'll never forget um her name, Sister David. I'm just gonna put her name out there um because she is part of my testimony. She um I'll I'll mention her a little bit later, but um she had this kindness and genuine joy that I always can recall, even till this day, till this day. Um, but I would go to their home and they like invested in me, but nobody knew my abuse. Nobody knew what was going on, and um even while growing up in church.

SPEAKER_01: 5:13

Alicia, when you're five or six, what prevented you? Do you remember what prevented you from telling anyone? Were you threatened? Or did it did you know? I know this sounds like a silly question to someone maybe listening, but you know, when it's your first experience and it's someone that you trust, you're not always aware that what's happening is wrong. I think there's an instinctive feeling, but it would be really easy, and many many um victims have reported that they just thought it was normal because they were kids and the person that had abused them was often family members or someone they trusted, so they didn't really think twice about whether or not what was happening wasn't okay. So did you know that what was happening was wrong? Were you threatened not to tell, or did you just kind of know not to tell?

SPEAKER_04: 6:18

You know, I I kind of probably knew not to tell. I I can't like there are vague memories, like vague things. Um, because it wasn't just that individual, so it was an accumulation. Um that individual, I can't remember. Like I remember what they did in detail. I can remember when it started, but his words, I just remember how he would say my name and things like that. Like that, that type of stuff. Um, I've and part of my testimony is I actually forgave my abusers. So um that abuse started with that particular individual and it stopped because I stood up to him. And once I stood up to him, he stopped abusing me.

SPEAKER_02: 7:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_04: 7:06

But by that time, there was another abuser who was abusing me. So it was actually a neighbor. It was a neighbor that was a friend of my brother's. And um that one, he actually was the one who told me, like, don't tell anybody, don't tell your mom. Um, you know, like there was threats with that one, with that particular individual, there was. Um, and at that point, I think I had already my mind had already been groomed to where, you know, to keep those type of secrets inside. But I I wanted, I think I wanted to say something, but I couldn't.

SPEAKER_02: 7:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 7:54

And um this is all why going to church. Like this is all going to church. And that's where the isolation started to happen. And um because there was even though I had ministers in my life, you know, who were reaching, you know, I still had this part that was so that was hidden. And it started developing a root inside of me. And it got to the point to where my grandma ended up, my grandma did get healed. My grandma did get healed, she got sober. Um, I had her for eight more years until I turned 13 is when she passed, about 13, 12. Um, but around 11 is when I got the Holy Ghost, and my mom went under another pastor. Well, in this church, there was abuse. To where there was a man in the church where he had, I believe, been abusing children. And because I was already being abused by a neighbor, I think this predator picked up on that.

SPEAKER_01: 9:04

Yeah, they do. They they you can see it. So this is now your third church.

SPEAKER_04: 9:09

This is now my third church, yeah. So my um that past that independent pastor went with this man. He followed, he went under this man. So my mom followed that particular minister. So we're at under the this third church, and that it was a small church. And this man, he was entrusted. He was somebody who was trusted, the pastor trusted him. Um but I felt like at a very young age, I had felt like I knew, like, in the sense of when I would go into church, there was things that I felt. Like I was I was very sensitive to things. And um this particular individual, like I always felt like something was wrong with the church, like something was really wrong. Um I and I was little, and this person ended up targeting me. And I'll never forget the day where he um I was sitting in my mom's car in the backseat, and he gets in. And that's where he tries to um like manipulate me, trying to tell me like um like figure tactics to try to get what he wanted out of me. And somehow, somehow I slipped out the other door. Right then and there, I thought he was gonna like I thought like that was the point where my first like a real like assault was gonna take place. That was gonna take place and I fought.

SPEAKER_01: 10:51

Um was he a member of the church or was he in leadership? He was a member.

SPEAKER_04: 10:56

He was he was a member, I think he was in leadership because he had a key. He had a key, he lived on the property, which was odd. Um, did he have a family? No, he he was an artist. So what I knew as a child was that this person was an artist, um, and he used to draw pictures of kids. And this person was someone who where he was an usher, he um, you know, what uh I guess when they collect, you know, the the money and the money plate, yeah. Um he was interested. He was. However, and my mom, she would invite him over for Christmas. So after that situation happened, I started becoming more fearful. I couldn't sleep, um, and the room was without a light. Um, windows all had to be covered. Like I I had like this fear that started to come inside. And that's when I think things started turning in my life where I started developing rebellion. And was it I didn't want to go?

SPEAKER_01: 12:15

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_04: 12:16

Oh no, no, it's okay.

SPEAKER_01: 12:18

Alicia, was it the same denomination you're in now, or was it um I know that there's also uh uh Hispanic Apostolic Organization? Same same.

SPEAKER_04: 12:30

It was yeah, no, it wasn't Apostolic Assembly, it was ALJC. So it was an independent um church. I grew up in UPC, UPCI, and ALJC. Um my mom eventually ended up leaving. She ended up leaving and going under a UPC uh pastor who eventually, I believe he became UPCI, but his son took over the church years later.

SPEAKER_01: 12:58

Okay. Um I mean, not that it matters there is abuse in every denomination. Um in every I mean because there is abuse, period, in the human in our society. So it really doesn't matter. Uh it exists in the church, it exists outside of the church. I was just curious.

SPEAKER_04: 13:18

Yeah, no, it's it's um it is prevalent. You know, years later, now that I've you know, um, you know, I've learned about trauma and what the effects of trauma and you know, and nursing and um actually taking a psychology course, well, a lifespan to where um you learn about the adolescence and you learn about abuse and you learn about different things that have been, yeah, development. And so I'm doing that now as a requisite for my nursing degree. But um that actually, you know, the things that I've I've read about and learned are things that um when reading, you actually start to understand like how the brain changes when trauma starts happening, right? Right, yeah, and how um that trauma, you know, over extension of period of time, what it does to the brain, and exposure and more exposure, and you're constantly in that survival mode, your brain changes, and that's what ultimately happened to me.

SPEAKER_01: 14:32

So you were abused until what age would you say uh over your life before you begin to rebel?

SPEAKER_04: 14:40

So it was at 11 I got the Holy Ghost. That particular pastor that that man was under didn't want me to get baptized. I remember that. And that's not, I don't want to speak about any man of God poorly or anything. That's not my intent. Um just because I have a reverence. At the same time, um there was just something odd. Like he didn't want me to get baptized, and typically we know that if you get the Holy Ghost, you get baptized. Typically you would do that.

SPEAKER_01: 15:10

Well, right. I I think I think somebody that is discouraging that is definitely not bearing the fruit of a Christian. So I you know what I'm saying? Just because they go to church doesn't mean they bear fruit, and that doesn't mean that that we're you know, the Bible tells us that we're supposed to discern the fruit. So I I think Yeah, I understand your cautiousness, you know, but um evil is still evil, and someone that is abusing you is absolutely not at all acting Christ-like. Okay, for the people out there, we had a little bit of technical difficulties, so we're like a video back together a little bit and picking up where we left off. So, Alicia, you were saying that your you started at the age of five, continued at eleven, you got um the Holy Ghost. And you guys were in now a third church, and um the man that attended that church uh did not want you to get baptized after you got the Holy Ghost. That's kind of what we were talking about where we left off.

SPEAKER_04: 16:24

Yeah, he was yeah, he was the pastor. Um at yeah, he did not want me to get baptized. And so did he say why?

SPEAKER_01: 16:32

Did he say why?

SPEAKER_04: 16:34

No, he never said why. I actually got the Holy Ghost at um a junior camp. And um we used to go with Rio Linda, so people who are in UPCI will know who what what church I'm talking about. And years later I found out um, you know, uh who the minister was at that church. It was kind of you know how God kind of works things, all things right together. Um, but he never said why. And for two years I did not get baptized, and that's between that time is when I really started fighting with my my parents. I really started I started um being more combative at this point, is when I really started going into the darkness of my life.

SPEAKER_01: 17:30

So what what did that look like? What why do you what caused you to start fighting with your parents and then what is it?

SPEAKER_04: 17:39

I was angry. I was angry, I was mad with those who were who I considered to be of God, but they misrepresented God.

SPEAKER_01: 17:49

Um so you were seeing the hypocrisy and the double standard. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 17:53

I was seeing I and there was, and then I started looking at like, oh, they're favored, I'm not, like the comparison trap. Um that offense was already starting to become there. And given there was things that I was dealing with, like bullying in school, um, due to because we didn't wear, you know, I didn't wear pants. I didn't look like other kids. And I'm in a public secular school, and I have very little support. No youth group, very minimal support. Even though my mom, we went to church, it seemed like every day of the week. There was no day that we did like that was old school Pentecost.

SPEAKER_01: 18:34

That's the way I grew up as well. Yeah, you know, looking back, I'm grateful for that. Like our whole life was about church, and and I'm grateful for that now. But at the time, yeah, it's like that's all we did.

SPEAKER_04: 18:46

Yep, and that's how I was raised. And so um, and I I started becoming rebellious, and it became to the point where there was fighting, I was missing school. At this point, me and my mom got into an argument, it got escalated, and my mom she was disciplining me. I hit her back. Well, she ended up um having the police called on me, and then I ended up going to juvenile hall for the first time.

SPEAKER_01: 19:24

Oh wow. How old were you?

SPEAKER_04: 19:27

I was around 12, 12-ish, because my grandma was still alive. And um, but my grandma was fighting cancer at that time.

SPEAKER_01: 19:38

Your mom and dad, your mom and dad still married at that time.

SPEAKER_04: 19:41

Oh yeah, oh yeah. My parents are still married. My parents have been married for 50, almost 52 years now. My parents, like I come from a long line of people that are married.

SPEAKER_01: 19:51

Yeah. They don't what did the discipline look like? Because back then, I'm not sure how old you are. I think I'm quite a bit older, but discipline was off the hook. Yeah, it was it was wooden spoons, belts, like the whole nine yards.

SPEAKER_04: 20:07

Yeah, it it was, it was, it was. My mom, you know, I given I needed discipline, and you know, I love I do love my mother. There are things that me and my mom, we don't have the greatest relationship just because of things that happen within our relationship. And it has been a process of forgiving that has come from my my side. Um because I did give my parents a lot of grief. And years later I went and repented to them and I said, please forgive me. Um however, at that time, it was, it was. Like I we were, we had, I mean, I have my dad was my dad is a good father. Like my dad is a I I love my dad. My dad is if my dad would have knew what was happening to me, I feel like my dad would have did something.

SPEAKER_01: 21:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 21:09

My dad he was the kind of man that worked every day. He worked, supported his family. He was all about working, taking care of the family, and the greatest pieces of my father uh, you know, is him getting up at three in the morning. And my dad was someone who read his Bible. My dad was someone who um listened to cassettes because he's from another country, so his English isn't great. But my dad learned, and my dad he he played the guitar and he would he would have hymn note, you know, books, and he's a very peaceable man. Um and from what God delivered him out of, right? So he's over there trying to stay saved for himself, and then he didn't know I don't believe what was happening to me.

SPEAKER_01: 21:59

And I I'm definitely not trying to uh blame you know the discipline at all. I just I think there's a lot of us that got disciplined like that, and so when you when you do fall into anger because you've been a victim of things, right? Anger is is a controllable outcome and something that a lot of people do deal with. You know, I was just curious, like at that time, what made you hit your mom back?

SPEAKER_04: 22:30

Because at that point I was so mad. At that point, I was so my my brain at that time was so like I'm against everything. And ultimately this other it almost seemed like another personality started coming out. Like I think it was me protecting myself. Sure, sure. Um because now I'm in that place of just I just need to survive.

SPEAKER_02: 22:59

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04: 23:00

Like if like if no one's gonna protect me, then I'm gonna protect myself.

SPEAKER_02: 23:06

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 23:08

And I I grew up, so my parents, um, I grew up in a rougher neighborhood, even though like my mom grew up in an upper class lifestyle before she came to God. And my dad, you know, he's from another country, so he didn't have the best of everything. And so my parents could have at one point they could have moved us to Napa, and my mom could have had me go to a Napa Christian school, but she decided not to. Um, but instead we lived in another city, we lived in Vallejo, and that was rough. And so you're growing up in church, you wear skirts every day, and you are surrounded by secular people, and you're not getting the support at home. And my mom, like, yeah, like you said, like discipline was belts, uh, wooden paddle. Me and my brother actually took it and put it in the fireplace because we were so tired, right? I mean, my brother concocted that old thing where we did that. Um, but I ended up going to juvenile hall, and at that point is when I said, I'm no longer gonna wear skirts. I'm done. And I started sneaking clothes.

SPEAKER_01: 24:28

How long were you in juvenile hall?

SPEAKER_04: 24:30

I was just in there for a weekend. It was um, I'll never forget the officer who put me in handcuffs and put me, you know, in the car. And yeah. It was a scare tactic. And you know, I had heard um stories about what happens to girls or people that go to juvenile hall. And um nothing happened to me in there, but I, you know, I do remember that I was like, I do remember asking, like, you know, God help me.

SPEAKER_01: 25:07

I'm just gonna throw out a a little plug here. So um for any parents that are listening, um, I think the absolute worst thing you can do to your child is call the police. Unless you feel your life is being threatened. You do not feel your life is being threatened. Don't ever if you're a Christian, don't ever call the police on your children. Because what they feel is abandoned and unloved, and it pushes them deeper and further from God and away from you. They they're not gonna understand when they're already at the place where they're struggling so much. I personally believe it's the worst thing a parent could do to their child. Um, and unfortunately, I see it all too often. And so I just wanted to put that plug in there because I think in a different d generation that maybe that could have worked to, you know, scare the kids straight to where they would straighten up and be obedient. But I it I don't think it works. I don't think it works at all. And um it causes a lot of harm that's very difficult to come back from. And the enemy is going to use that against against them and against you as the parent and against the Lord. So we don't want to give we don't want to give the enemy any occasion um for for our children to be offended with us turn their back. Because if they turn their back on us, they're gonna turn their back on God simultaneously. Or vice versa. So um so you go to juvenile hall for the weekend, you come out, and and I guess that is the beginning. You said I'm done with this. Did you stop going to church? Did they make you go to church? What what did life look like for you after that?

SPEAKER_04: 27:08

So life was I'm not going to church. And if I did go to church, I would wear some of the most awful clothes. I I really was like all out. I um I started like wearing makeup and pants, and I didn't cut my hair until after a certain part of my life. Like um, I want to say when I was about fifteen. But that's after a whole ordeal of things started happening.

SPEAKER_01: 27:46

Um But what was your mom so was your mom and dad making you go to church that you just said I'm not going and they were okay not letting you go at twelve years old?

SPEAKER_04: 27:57

No, I mean it was arguments, it was disagreements. Um it was chaotic.

SPEAKER_01: 28:08

It was can you elaborate a little bit? I want to be able to relate to the kids out there who are going through things because chaos doesn't always articulate No, it doesn't.

SPEAKER_04: 28:23

Some because my parents would get into disagreements and you know my dad my dad, you know, things weren't done a certain way, and he'd be like, Well, I'm not gonna go. At this point, there was things happening within my own, and you know, I don't want to speak poorly on anybody, including my my family, because my parents are very um important to me. At that time, though, there was things going on with the dynamic of our family, and I was you know, rebelling. I had an older brother too, where um because the my one of my abusers was his friend, and that particular friend was getting my brother caught up in issues too. So when the enemy attacked my family, he used this particular individual. This this ended my brother ended up, um he my brother ended up as well leaving church too. So we were we um ended up years later, I want to say around 15, 16, my brother backslid. My dad, after he found out, around 13 is where things started really happening in my life. But go like the the darkness started really taking over, and it also affected my family. That's where it bled into my family. But around going to church was you're gonna go, and that's it.

SPEAKER_01: 29:48

So when you when you quote unquote backslid, when you decided you're done, were you directing that at God or were you more directing that? At your mom. Like, do you feel like it was my mom?

SPEAKER_04: 30:05

It was never I loved God. Like at five years old, even while being abused, I would get my Bible and sleep with my Bible.

SPEAKER_02: 30:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 30:14

And I I I was alone a lot of the time because remember, my siblings were older. So I was so isolated.

SPEAKER_01: 30:22

Right. A lot of prodigals that I talked to, um, they never meant to really leave God. They just they just had struggle in their life and they didn't know how to reconcile the two. And so when we're raised, when we're raised in church the way that we were, and have a relationship with God at such an early age, at least I always identify God with the church. I never knew how to separate God from the church. I had to learn that as I got older, I imagine. You know, most of us prodigals, we have to learn how to do that as as we come back to the Lord. So what did all of that look like? What what happened next in your life? And be specific if you can.

SPEAKER_04: 31:13

So yeah, so then that's where um my mom ended up getting a social worker, ended up um wanting to put me in therapy, um, because I had gone to juvenile hall, they automatically gave me a probation officer. Because now I was being truant. I didn't want to go to school. So um I it was literally me fighting against my parents.

SPEAKER_01: 31:37

Um were you ditching or were you just not leaving the house? No, I was ditching.

SPEAKER_04: 31:43

I was ditching, I was leaving. Um, I was leaving. Uh there was this woman that my mom started like trying to win to God, or you know, because my mom, she she would give Bible studies to anybody. My mom was a soul winner. And we, you know, dope drug addicts knew who my mom was. Dope dealers. My mom, my mom was like, like when everyone's home was getting robbed, my mom's home did it. And um, and there was respect for my mom. However, in our own lives was chaotic. So that woman that she was reaching, she would like let me go to her house. I would leave school and go to her house and hang out with her. So and she wasn't a great lady either. Like she wasn't. Um and because I was so at that point, the bullying, the abuse, I wanted a way of escape. So the people of the world were the way of escape because in the sense, like, if I have nobody in church, I have no support, my dad can't help me, my mom can't help me, they want to automatically put me like um with therapy. And then there came a point because I went to juvenile hall, I was assigned a probation officer. And that's where stuff's that's where I started dabbling in um ultimately witchcraft. So there came a point where I started um I remember uh going to the library and I had like this curiosity because here I am struggling, not and then it's like almost you don't know where you belong. So this identity, this identity crisis starts happening. Because at that age, that's where we really start um wanting you know autonomy. Yeah, autonomy. We want our identity, like who am I really? Um, and then you have the Holy Ghost, and you're you're not, you're, you're all all this chaos is going on. Well, I go to the library, pick up books on palm reading and tarot cards.

SPEAKER_01: 34:01

Well, how did you even know to think about that?

SPEAKER_04: 34:04

That's a thought that came to my head. A thought. It was the enemy was lying to me. And at this point, what was he saying?

SPEAKER_01: 34:14

Um because uh I'm I'm curious where the exposure came from. Because at 12, like unless you'd been exposed to palm reading or witchcraft, you wouldn't naturally know to go think of that. You know, you wouldn't you wouldn't even know those terminologies.

SPEAKER_04: 34:35

Well, I like I like I was always very sensitive as a child, always sensitive. There were things that I could sense, I would dream. Um because I was struggling so much with fear, I would have night terrors, I would have sleep paralysis.

SPEAKER_02: 34:50

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 34:51

So um demonic years yes, yep. I then I never like years later, I learned what sleep paralysis was. It was a spirit, and um so at that point I did get baptized, and that actually is where the old pastor came in and I got baptized. Me and my cousin got baptized together on the same day. There was a point where I remember watching the movie Left Behind, and I'll go back to why I got in why I started dabbling in that. Um where I had to I did get baptized, but then after I got baptized, that's when my abuser from when I was like eight, and remember, he's abusing me through all this. I'm also being molested. I'm being abused by a uh my brothers who at the time was not he wasn't a friend, he was the enemy, trying to, I mean, it seemed like chaos swallowed that person. And after I had gotten baptized, he raped me. That was like the first blown, like real assault, assault, assault. And I didn't tell anybody. I didn't tell nobody. Um at that point my grandma had passed away. And at that point I was um in a in that in a school at that school because I had a probation officer, I was ditching, they put me in that school. Well, at that school they had psychiatrists. And it was for children who were emotionally either disturbed or children who were headed to prison. It was like for troubled kids.

SPEAKER_02: 36:48

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04: 36:50

And so no, church was not on the cards after I got baptized and that happened, that was it. Walked away and walked away. And I was dressing provocatively um and then I ended up around 14 meeting my daughter's father at the time. He was my my you know boyfriend. And I started escaping through relationships. Um that person who assaulted me, we ended up like it ended up, it ended right there. Right after he did that, that was it. Um I ended up meeting my daughters at the time he was my boyfriend. For many years I was on and off with her father. Um and we ended up, you know, on and off. And then that's where I started getting into palm reading and really into deep witchcraft. Um, and there wasn't I was not going to church. I was not um at all. And then that's where I ended up in a dark place to where I wanted to commit suicide. So it's when her father, I mean we're like 15 years old, broke up with me, or something happened. It was like a another traumatic experience, abandonment, and that's where um I wanted to commit suicide and I felt very alone. My grandma was gone. I w I just wanted to be with my grandma. And I remember, you know, the what I consumed that day. But this is the thing, God never left me. Even when I did that, I'll never forget I had took all these pills and a voice came and said, Go tell your mom what you did. And it almost was like an angel was sitting there. Like I felt I felt the the presence of the room change, and it said, You need to go tell your mom what you did. And I didn't want to, but then it prompted me again, go tell your mom what you did. So I went and I told my mom, and then that's where I ended up, you know, the ambulances called, they started giving me charcoal, and then that's where everything changed. Um at least for and my I might change for my family too.

SPEAKER_01: 39:32

For better or for worse, everything changed.

SPEAKER_04: 39:35

For worse. It got really dark. And what did you take?

SPEAKER_01: 39:41

Do you remember what you took?

SPEAKER_04: 39:43

Um like a whole bottle of Motrin and a whole bottle of Tylenol. Like a whole bottle. And um that was the first time I did that.

SPEAKER_01: 39:58

And at that time, at that time, Alicia, you were already dabbling into witchcraft.

SPEAKER_04: 40:04

Oh yeah, yeah. I had gotten vertigo. So I had uh when I started really doing like the tarot card readings and stuff, um I started getting dizzy spells. And I was I was exposed, I think. I remember you had asked me just a question previous. Why did I get into it? Well, I had gone to a fair and I had saw a fortune teller. And I was curious, I was curious.

SPEAKER_01: 40:30

That was a seed, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 40:31

Uh-huh. I was curious. I was like, oh, like, hmm. And then I felt like this, I don't know what it was, like, I want to know. I want to know who I really am. And like this, the enemy was toying with my head. And it was like nobody could speak into my life. The only person who could speak into my life at that point was maybe my grandpa. And my aunt. My aunt was my aunt has been a a backbone in my life. She's a woman of incredible, like, she has faith, even though she's not in our denomination or she's not um baptized necessarily in Jesus' name. My my aunt has incredible faith. And she was the only person who could really speak into my life, or I would have let speak into my life. My sister at this time could not speak in my life. My brother couldn't. And nobody could. And so and then that's where my parents like I think my parents like started um they started having their own issues within their marriage. And you know, my mom, she lost her mom, she had to go through her her, you know, traumatic stuff too, with you know, losing her mom and just the whole dynamic of the family changed. The point where we really needed God, we didn't have the support. And but my mom, the one thing about my mother, my mother was always faithful. My mom was faithful. My mom always showed up to church and she was just faithful. And um there were things that happened that I had saw that I that I, you know, people treated my mom and I was like, why would I want to go there to people who don't even treat my mom right? Who aren't even kind to my mom. Like, no, I'm not gonna go there. Even though I'm being rebellious toward my mom, even though I'm being disrespectful toward my mom. And needless to say, that vulnerable time where I really needed help, I didn't have the help. And I ended up in the psychiatric hospital. And it was like something took over my body. I wasn't the same after that.

SPEAKER_01: 43:02

You ended up in the psychiatric hospital because of the vertigo or because of something else?

SPEAKER_04: 43:07

Well, because of the I'm sorry. Um, back to what I was saying, because of when I had tried to uh take it on the city. Commit suicide. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 43:15

So they would have taken you to the ambulance at that time. Did you tell the docs that you did want to kill yourself?

SPEAKER_04: 43:22

I was fighting them. Actually, I was fighting them. It was like something came over me.

SPEAKER_01: 43:28

How long were you in the psych ward?

SPEAKER_04: 43:30

Um I think it was it was actually so because I was fighting the security, I I was fighting security. I was on a 72-hour hold. And then they put me in the psychiatric facility. I was there for a good week.

SPEAKER_02: 43:49

Yeah, 70.

SPEAKER_04: 43:51

And and then my mom brought, you know, a pastor came. A pastor came and saw me. My mom's pastor, he came and saw me. I didn't really want to talk to him. I was very angry. Um my mom came to see me and I really didn't want to talk to her. Um it seemed like the even when I was in the psychiatric hospital, there were girls there. Like we all could talk, and you know, it felt I felt more connected.

SPEAKER_01: 44:23

It almost seemed like you well, you had something to identify with.

SPEAKER_04: 44:26

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01: 44:27

To relate to.

SPEAKER_04: 44:29

But I knew I didn't belong there.

SPEAKER_01: 44:31

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 44:32

Um, because I would see little kids. There's little kids in there.

SPEAKER_02: 44:36

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 44:36

And it freaked me out. It freaked me out. I was like, like, I don't belong here, like I don't want to be here. And you know, there were it just seemed like even though I was in these places that there were girls who were similar to me, and we would just kind of, you know, flock, like bond. It was almost because we had traumatic stories or we we had all these things, so we kind of like bonded.

SPEAKER_02: 45:00

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 45:01

So I get out of yeah. And I get out of the hospital at this point. I'm 15 and I'm in relationships with older people that I shouldn't be in relationships with.

SPEAKER_01: 45:21

So you said you felt like something took over you when you were there. Could you elaborate?

SPEAKER_04: 45:29

Yeah. Um it was like something took over to where it wasn't me. I was aggressive, I was fighting them. Um it was like there was two people and one.

SPEAKER_01: 45:48

Right. Yeah. And um And you were so I I the reason I'm asking is because I think there's a level of distinction that people recognize within themselves, and then there's other people that don't recognize that separation. So, you know, that's why I'm asking the question. Because I think there's people often know that there's another voice speaking to them in their thoughts. They're arguing often with the voice. Um, they can feel the shift that occurs within them. Um and so that's why I'm asking and trying to dig a little deeper here because coming from a person that was spirit-filled, you understand when the Holy Ghost comes in and takes over and what happens internally for that change to take place. So the fact that you can distinguish between you not being yourself, I'm not suggesting that you were possessed or anything like that, but but I just wanted to distinguish between that shift that occurs, because even for you to say a voice, I felt like that was an angel. There's a level of recognition that you understood as a little girl. You understood that okay, this isn't me thinking this for myself, this is something outside of me, as you said, prompting me. Often anger, impulsivity is also prompts that occur from I believe the spirit realm. Um and as well as good things, you know, the Lord prompts us into things. So I'm just trying to delineate those nuances for the audience because we see that in the world today. People that do not grow up in church, like for example, the um people that shoot up schools, you know, almost almost inevitably they say they heard a voice. I mean, almost all serial killers, I've I've researched this quite a bit, always say they heard a voice. They they felt someone telling them they heard someone saying they heard they felt. So it's really important to make that distinction. And then given the fact that you are already toying into witchcraft, um, I think it's important to sort of talk about that a little. For people to be able to recognize within their own warfare, you know, adults, children, whoever might be listening to this podcast, the way the enemy works. The way the enemy works is the way the enemy works. And so the the more we understand his devices, the more equipped we are to fight him and overcome. So that's why I'm trying to ask the the questions a little bit um more for clarity so that people can learn from the experiences that we have gone through.

SPEAKER_04: 48:57

Yes. And um this is something that years later I learned it was the thought. The thought comes first. When the enemy comes to attack a saint or or someone, it's the thoughts.

SPEAKER_02: 49:12

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 49:13

And especially if you don't know your Bible to where we take every thought into captivity and to the obedience of Christ. But if you don't have that ingrained in you, and that's the thing, is like when we're raised in church, and a lot of prodigals, when they when they leave, it's because they're not one, there's somewhere where even though we're taught, like you could put on the dress, put on, you know, wear it to your knees, don't cut your hair, all those standards. But if we don't have the love of God at home and the word of God being placed in our hearts every day, it can be to where the enemy can sneak in and come in and put that thought. And like and like you said, a lot of those people who commit those crimes, I do believe that that's demonic. And I do believe that at that time I was under well, I knew I was because part of my testimony is years later, um, I was delivered. And it actually was a minister who prayed on me. And the moment he prayed, he actually, and I tested, I wanted to test and see. Because I was like, well, if you're really God, which I knew there was a God, I had this fear of God in a sense.

SPEAKER_01: 50:30

Like, even though I'm doing all of this stuff, even though you had a reverence for God because you knew you knew he was real. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 50:38

And and the people, and ironically, the people of God. It became years later where I started having like more of a um, I got so lost, so lost that I ended up in an abusive marriage with people I shouldn't have never been with, a family that I should have never been tied with. And at that point I had piercings, I had already gotten tattoos, um, I had gotten nose, you know, like I was all and even then I couldn't fit in. I they did not like me. Even the family didn't like me. And they were like, they were um they were heavily involved in um their background was drugs, their background was criminal activity.

SPEAKER_01: 51:29

And I want to pause for a second um and go back to um what you said about put on a dress, don't wear makeup, all that stuff. So um I just want to say for the audience watching, a dress isn't gonna save you, and a dress isn't holiness. Modesty and holiness are not the same things, in my opinion. Um the reason I'm clarifying this, I'm gonna stumble a little bit, is because I've had so many prodigals get tripped up over the outward appearance that they never want to come back to. And you know, I um I I think if we just back up and let God do the work in a person's heart, God changes the things in a person that he wants to change. But, you know, makeup or no makeup isn't taking you to heaven. Um, most of the things that our church teaches are not salvific, meaning they're not salvation issues. And um, so I, you know, I don't want I don't want that to be a stumbling block for anybody that's still out there not returning. Um, because I feel like sometimes the standards that we grew up with are a stumbling block for them, and we have to we have to take everything off the table and just try to get back to a place where you can God, hear God, talk to God, and begin opening that door for a relationship with Him and let God deal with all the other stuff. You know, it I mean God God deals with all of the other stuff and the entire New Testament and the Old Testament talks about the heart's condition. It's the heart that Jesus is after. When the heart becomes right with God, everything else takes care of itself. And and God does take care of all of those things. And I don't minimize the importance of things, it's just you can't put the heart before the horse. I have to deal with the heart. We we have to get back first into conversation with God, being able to just open the door and say, okay, you know, who are you? I I need to know you as who I am. And and I've said this before in the podcast, so people that watch this regularly, forgive me for repeating myself. But you know, the first thing that God changed about me when I came back to him was music. It wasn't how I looked, it wasn't what I wore, it was what I listened to, and it became about the books that I read. You know, it was it was very different things than what I look like on the outside. And so um I just think that that really does create a stumbling block for people to even make the first step to getting their heart right with God, because you know, we just see all the things that we were taught as kids, and so I just wanted to throw that in because as I'm hearing you talk, it it was an issue for you too. It was an issue for me, and I and I think it continues to be an issue for people, and I know that there is the argument, well, if you love God enough, none of those things matter, and that is true, but the getting to that place to even be able to turn back towards the Lord is what we gotta focus on. And you know, if I can't even see God because all these other things are in my way, we gotta remove everything and just be able to get to a place where we can see the Lord and and have a desire to get back into communion with Him.

SPEAKER_04: 55:33

And um I I agree with that. And there's a difference between holiness and modesty that I learned years later. Um Me too, yeah. And like there's a difference, and um there's also a difference between it comes with the time. It comes with time and relationship, like you said. You cannot tell someone, put this on, look this way, conform.

unknown: 55:56

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 55:57

That's not how that works.

SPEAKER_01: 55:58

It won't last. It won't last when it's tested. It you know, when it when it gets tested, it won't last because it's not built on the right foundation. But if if we do let God do all those things in us, you know, and there and there are things that I learned as well in our denomination. It's it's a value, some of the things are values that they they set out that also is um not a salvation issue because you know, modesty standards change across the board for many people in denominations. So that also is something that is part of this organization particularly and and not other organizations. So I think there's so much confusion around that topic. One of these days, I'll do a whole podcast on it, but I gotta, I'm gonna do it with my pastor so that he can speak into it and it doesn't get misconstrued. But um, anyways, I I divert, I digress. I I just wanted to clear that up because one thing about this podcast, and I reiterate almost every show, is I this is this is to the people that have not returned. And and the reasons that I interview prodigals is to give a message of hope. So it's incredibly important for people to see where someone has been. The down and dirty, the the the pain, the sorrow, the ugliness of where a life apart from God takes us. Because there are people out there that might still be in jail, that might still be in the occult, but they do still have the still small voice of God speaking to them. They might be on drugs, they might be at another church that might not be teaching the truth. But I will tell you that every church I ever went to, nothing ever compared to my apostolic church, which is why I'm back, you know, because ultimately I wanted God, I wanted the most purest, authentic, truest relationship I could have with him. And like like you said, once you start reading the Bible, it Bible is what tells the story, and um, and if we can get people to start reading the Bible, the Bible will will be the path that will bring people back into right relationship with God. But but that's why I just want to talk about those details because I'm trying to reach the people that haven't come home yet, you know. Yeah, and they and some of those people may never ever come back to an apostolic UPC church. Um many of them will because I think we have to go back to heal where we were hurt, you know, to get clear.

SPEAKER_04: 58:57

But I think it's also prayer. There are many people who are intercessors and prayer warriors who are praying for prodigals, especially right now. Yes, yes. Um and I think that it takes someone and you don't have to leave church and be backslidden, no. But sometimes God allows those situations, one, because I do believe that the ones who do come home, they're gonna have an anointing on them to go out and there are people that I can talk to and reach that others may not be able to.

SPEAKER_02: 59:33

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 59:33

Because once I believe once you're delivered out of all of that, you have the ability to go back and lift somebody else out. So when it comes to women who go through abuse or mental illness or possession, witchcraft, whatever, gang life, whatever it is, you know how you now have authority. You can actually put the devil in this place. 'Cause you came out of that, got delivered.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:00

From that.

SPEAKER_04: 1:00:00

And and and that's the thing is like a thousand percent. You know, this this walk, my walk has it it was a very ugly walk until like the past, I wanna say, I've been back for fifteen years. And and I was, I was put on psychotropic medication, I was put a second time in a mental facility, and then I was ultimately put in a girl's home. And I lived with women. It's a lot of trauma. Yeah, I had so much, but it was like I was with other women for whatever purpose God has allowed me to be around the rougher, the more um the girls who don't have, you know, the best upbringing, the ones who have no mom, the one who's been abused, um for whatever purpose and reason, and I think it is in a sense to give them hope. Like if God, if God can save me, he can save you too. And so when I see when I when I see someone and I can see, I can see all the things I was once bound up by.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:05

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 1:01:06

Because ultimately, when I came back, that was due to I ended up marrying um my my daughter's father, who was the one who I was with when I was 14. We were on and off, on and off. And it spot it eventually I ended up back with him years later. I was supposed to get married to a guy who was like very wealthy. I I ended up, I was backslidden, I was so backslidden, I was living with a guy. And the crazy part was his his mother was a witch. She was a born-off black witch. His sister-in-law was a witch. And at that point, I still would pray.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:42

The devil was out to you allegiance.

SPEAKER_04: 1:01:45

I was I was still praying though. I would still, I would go, I would, I would look one way, one way, and I would still try to go to church. I was still fighting.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:01:54

And and the thing is, is when I share this testimony, I pray that it reaches that girl who feels I can't come back because I got all these layers. The thing is, is that God sees through all your layers.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:08

And the one thing God'll use them.

SPEAKER_04: 1:02:10

Yes. And that's the one thing is that when I came back, it wasn't one, two, three easy. It was not. I and I wasn't met with a robe and a ring. You know how they talk about the prodigal son? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. Um, I remember having an accident right outside, right after I prayed through. It was actually a very prominent person in our organization who prayed on me. And he said, just believe. Because at that point, I already had a label. At that point, my family already labeled me. At that point, um, you know, people would tell my mom, your daughter's never gonna amount to anything. She's gonna be locked up in a hospital, she's gonna end up in prison. And they actually said that. There are people who were just, they were like, She's crazy, she's gone. There's no hope for her.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:02:58

And and I almost dropped out of high school. I I and my mom sent me to a girls' home, and ultimately I got my high school diploma there. Um and I had met other girls who went through abuse. Girls who were headed, they were on their they were going to prison.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:03:16

And so those were the girls I actually bonded with. Um, and there's actually one till this day, I'm actually her friend, and she is an atheist. And I will say this um she doesn't believe in God, but the one thing she did say, she said, because I know you, I know that there is a God. She told me that one time. Um, she's just afraid and really wounded.

unknown: 1:03:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:44

It's just easier to say easier to say she's an atheist, but she's definitely seeing the light in you, and I would just keep shining that light to her.

SPEAKER_04: 1:03:54

And I and I pray for you know the people that I cross paths with. And I learned the power of forgiveness. So ultimately, years later, Kathy, um, I came back, um, I was delivered, and that was a demonic spirit. I was under, I was possessed with that stuff. Um and it came to a point where God fully delivered me. I mean, completely delivered me to where I have sound mind. Even the people who diagnosed me years later, they said, you don't need medication, you do better without. And I believe and and the Holy Ghost, this is the thing about the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost rewires the brain.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:40

So does prayer.

SPEAKER_04: 1:04:42

Yes. And and that's prayer. And so, and even my daughter, I remember when she was little, she knew the difference when I would pray and go to the altar. She knew. There was one time where something had happened and she said, Come on, mommy, let's go to the altar. And years later, she told me, because I knew, mom, that prayer works for you.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:04

Yeah. I think you know, we in Western culture we place so much emphasis on science, um, but it's it's backwards. Science actually proves the Bible in the spiritual world, and actually, there's tons of science right now that has been done and is being done about the paranormal. Paranormal is basically the supernatural. We understand the supernatural about being God and and um the angelic and the demonic, you know, the invisible basically, what we cannot see. Um but yeah, the the supernatural is a predominant force, and the br and the science is now starting to prove that how the brain responds to all of that, you know. But it's not backwards, it's not that the brain comes first and then all of that comes second. It's it's the spirit of God, which is the supernatural, comes first. And science is just now beginning to see how the brain responds to all of those things. And there's so much they cannot explain. They keep trying to find words, but um, you know, partly because God can't be explained, but it is exciting um as a therapist to have some research and language to talk about the things of God and the power of prayer and and all of that, because they're starting they're starting to intersect somewhat.

SPEAKER_04: 1:06:38

Well, yeah, and that's the thing is that um we you know we wrestle not against flesh and blood. And it's really true. Like it's really real, it's it is real, and like you when you had said the enemy was after me, yeah. Because he knew since the moment you know we were formed in our in our mother's womb, he knew who I was gonna be in this time.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:02

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 1:07:03

And the enemy, one thing I noticed is if he can't, he tries to get you when you're little. He tried to get a thousand percent, he tried to um get I believe it was Josh um Jezebel's grandson or uh uh Attila's grandson, she he tried to get him when he was little to destroy that Jesus. Yes, and Moses, and Jesus because people, and this is what I've learned people who are forerunners for the Lord, they are the forerunners, meaning they are there there is a generation rising within the prodigals, within the backslider. They are gonna be the ones who are gonna be reaching those who are lost. Because one, they have experience and they know.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:51

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 1:07:52

And they have to do it. And they overcame, yeah, and they overcame it. And there are some that they've been in church for many, many years, and that's a beautiful thing, and I don't take away from that, and I honor that. And they're but at the end of the day, you've been in it so long, and sometimes we be I and I see this because I encountered this actually, you know, we can become jaded. Where we do every day the norm to norm. We look, you know, we look this way, we go to church, like you can get into that cycle, and then you're not reaching the lost because we were called to be disciple makers.

SPEAKER_01: 1:08:30

Well, that's a difference between people that go to church for culture and habit versus those that have relationship, you know. Not that they don't have relationship, but there's gotta be another level of hunger, you know. Um, because it's easy to just look a certain way and live a certain way every day and not spend time in your word and not spend time in prayer. Yeah, you can be a whole different story.

SPEAKER_04: 1:08:56

It's very different. And you're right, and that's the thing is that you have to have a daily relationship with the Lord.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:03

And you know, that's not just say anything bad about people that that don't. I mean, yeah, there's a lot to be said about faithfulness.

SPEAKER_04: 1:09:12

Yeah, we're on a different um something I've learned over the years is that and you you said something about, you know, if you try to conform without gain it for yourself, it won't work. And you're right, because I would be one where I would go back and forth. I wanted I wanted so badly to be back in church, but I had the stumbling block of standards. And um, and it would be this in and out thing.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:43

And because of the And that's because you think you think, okay, if I'm in church, I gotta be this, it's all or nothing, black and white, thank you.

SPEAKER_04: 1:09:51

Yep, yep. That was how my mind was at that time, to where it was it was like that. And there came a point to where God actually, that there came a point where I was actually my daughter's father, and that whole situation ended up. I was in jail. And I was about to change, you know, they call it change out. I was in a holding cell, and that's where I met God for me. Like truly, even though like I would hear him and there was prompting, and I was with all these people. I mean, I would still talk to God. It wasn't that I didn't talk to God, I was just in a place where I knew I shouldn't been, but I didn't know how to get out. And I was so and and I was influenced by that spirit that was you know coming. It wasn't like it didn't happen overnight, right? It happened over time, progressive. And it wasn't like I was one minute, you know, um, there were times where I was there and times where I wasn't, and mentally I meant like me.

SPEAKER_03: 1:10:57

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 1:10:58

And so I was always fighting this battle. And this is the one thing that I do want to say is that I would struggle. I would I would go to the church parking lot sometimes and sit there. And the enemy would say, Oh, you gotta give up this. Remember what you did with so-and-so? You can't go in there, they don't accept you, they don't even like people like you. Like I'm telling you, I literally remember sitting outside my mom's old church. I wanted to go in so bad, but I couldn't. And I would just drive away.

SPEAKER_03: 1:11:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:11:31

And but when I met God for myself, I was in that holding cell, and that's where God told me there's gonna be this no more in and out thing. Either you're gonna live for me or that's it. Because I do believe there is a point where God does say that's it. He does, He does, He does.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:50

There is He did that for me too, yeah. I agree.

SPEAKER_04: 1:11:55

And I know that people say, Well, God is great, He's merciful, He's yeah, He is, He is all of those things, yes.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:02

But God is also a very just God, yeah, and I want it I want to interrupt a little bit because um I I agree with that a thousand percent, but I wanted to shift the focus because what I what I think, and I could be wrong, I think the Lord is trying to let us know because when we are outside the hedge of protection, the the enemy the enemy can has permission to attack us. We you're open to the Bible. Yeah, the Bible says that when when we let down the hedge, we choose to let down the hedge, the serpent can come in. And I was just reading this morning in Psalms, I think it's like 124, 129, something, um, about uh it was another thing about the hedge of protection, that as long as we stay within the hedge of protection, as long as we are you know living for God, doing righteousness, we are protected. So I think with you and with me, when the Lord says, hey, it's now or never, I think it's not because he got done with us. I think he sees the trap that the enemy has set for our future and that if we are outside of the bounds of grace because we've let the hedge down because we decided to go have sex with some random guy, or we decided to partake in things that are clearly outside of God's word, we have an open door. We have just allowed the enemy access to our life, and the enemy is the one that can destroy that. The enemy is the one that could set the trap for us for a car accident or something where it does become a point of no return. So I think it's a grace of God when he can warn us that way, but it's not because he's done with us, because the Bible says, even if I make my bed in hell, he is there. I think it's that the Lord sees the future and knows the traps the enemy has set for us, and there does come a point where the enemy's gonna, you know, gonna try to take us out. He I just wanted to reframe it a little bit. Yeah, yeah. So that's because I think growing up in church, one thing I hear in the in the therapeutic office a lot is people really struggle with God being punitive, and they they think that he they they wrestle constantly. Well, if God was so good, then why did this happen? And they they don't stop to think that we have an adversary who is the other piece of the puzzle. And so I wanted to just clear that up for anyone out there who is really struggling with their perspective of God being punitive. We do live in the dispensation of grace, and there's a lot to be said there, but but he is functioning from a place of grace. Judgment will come, but it's going to come at a different time. The enemy is the one who is bringing about the evil, the ugly, the harm that happens in this world.

SPEAKER_04: 1:15:16

Yeah. And and that's the thing, is that we I always go back, we don't fight people, we don't, we don't fight flesh, we fight spiritual battles.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:24

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 1:15:25

And you know, right getting back into church and surrendering, like I had to surrender. And it and I came to that, I was at that breaking point to where that was it. That was it. I I was and my daughter was a big key of that because I didn't want my daughter growing up going through the same things I went through. And I I and I didn't and like that was the one thing was that even when she was little, you know, there came a point where I would put her in skirts, and like I was like, I don't live that way. And my wrestling at that point, I was like, I I don't want to live like this, I don't want to be in this situation, I didn't grow up this way. This is not, you know, like my parents took me to church and I was ended up in a marriage to where it was awful. It was bad. It was so bad to the point where the person put me in jail because he wanted to control my life. And this person was very well connected with people, very well connected in um that dark lifestyle of the world. There is another world, there is another world that a lot of people don't know about, don't see, but it is the underworld, and there is that, and the and the enemy, the enemy does how do I want to say this? Um try to influence. There's this dark influence, and there are people like you you know how God has his people and the enemy has his people.

SPEAKER_01: 1:17:02

Oh yeah, and it's powerful.

SPEAKER_04: 1:17:05

And but he's not sovereign.

SPEAKER_01: 1:17:06

This is the thing, is that nope, and he's not more powerful than God. But if you are if you are subjected to that world because you are outside of the grace of God in terms of following God and submitting to God, then that is gonna be the dominant force.

SPEAKER_04: 1:17:24

And that's the thing, and people don't realize the power of their words, they don't realize when they're saying things of how much power you really have.

unknown: 1:17:34

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 1:17:34

Because I would say things when I was younger, like, oh, I'm gonna, you know, do this or do that, not realizing what I was saying.

unknown: 1:17:42

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 1:17:42

And those like like the thought, the thought would come to you and you would say it verbally. Like I do belie I I do believe that God prevented me. He didn't want me to get married to my daughter's father. And there were times where he was he was still with me. He was still with me, but like you said, I was out of the umbrella of protection. But because I believe my mom, as much as stuff has happened between me and my mother, her faithfulness, and then there were other spiritual mothers who didn't forget about me. There were people who were praying for me, um, right, and they didn't give up. Right. And because of them praying, because somebody prayed for me, I'm here today talking to you. Yeah, my daughter is living, and my daughter's living for God. And the thing is, is that I know where God brought me out of. And when, you know, when I surrendered, it wasn't overnight. It was in my mind, I was like, okay, I'm gonna do what I need to do. And there was one time, only one time, where I tried to go back and God checked me. He he literally, and God will do that. If he loves you, he will do that. And he he he humbled me, he took some things away from me. And but then he restored. And you had made a comment where you had said, why does God allow bad things to happen? And I've learned that those things were meant to reach others. They weren't even though as bad as they were, God says he uses all things for his good. He will give us beauty for our ashes.

SPEAKER_01: 1:19:34

And but he doesn't create any of that, and he doesn't look upon it.

SPEAKER_04: 1:19:39

He doesn't, but because we live in where man is, there are we we're still we're still subject to sometimes what the hands of man, because man is flawed. Right. We're not yet on the other side, right? And because of human because of human nature and because of man fallen by grace, and unfortunately, there are people who unfortunately things happen in their life by wicked people who are under that influence. The enemy knows who we are, he knows who you and I are, he knows who belongs to God and who doesn't. And that's the whole thing is that you can try to run from God, but you can't ultimately run so far where he can't find you.

SPEAKER_02: 1:20:25

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 1:20:26

God knew, God knew how to pull my chain, he knew how to get a hold of me, he knew what what I needed to turn back to him.

SPEAKER_02: 1:20:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:20:36

And it's not that I didn't love God, it was that there were parts of me that were still hurt about church things. And I didn't want to and and I don't want to surrender because one thing that I learned is that it's easier to use that offense as something to hold on to to ironically give you strength.

SPEAKER_01: 1:20:57

It's a false sense of strength.

SPEAKER_04: 1:20:59

It's a false, and that's where the enemy tri that's that falseness with that Satan tries to use to try to keep you in bondage.

SPEAKER_01: 1:21:09

That's why I think humility is so important and it is one of the hardest things to humble when the Bible says humble yourself before the Lord. Yes. Um, it is the opposite of of the false strength that we we all feel as survivors feel like um that's our most comfortable place to walk in. So it is a dying to self and and it is something that can come and does come once you really start developing your relationship with the Lord and you begin to trust God that he's got a hold of your heart. Because otherwise it's it's way too vulnerable, it's way too exposing, and it's way too scary. So you're right. I mean, I I totally agree with with what you're saying, and and the Lord knows because he knows he knows everything about you, and he and he gives us the space and the grace and the time, you know, to heal. Because that's what it is. It's it's it's a healing process, you know, and we will never really I think anyone apart from God will never really understand the depth of his love until they risk coming back, and it is a risk because the it there's so such a fear intimidation there for anyone to come back, but if they will ever just breach that um divide and begin to take the step towards God, they'll really discover that his love far outweighs any fear that we could have about who he is and his goodness towards us, because he does use all things for good, even though the dem the enemy meant it for evil. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:23:06

And um I I I really um you know, that was the thing is that God does use it all. And you know, and he's a gentleman. And what I mean by and what I mean by that is God was so gracious with me that he gave, like you said, he gives you time to heal.

SPEAKER_02: 1:23:27

Patience.

SPEAKER_04: 1:23:28

There are some people that it's instant for them. Like it's instant. I had a sister tell me, oh, it was instant for me, and I said, that's wonderful. But for me, it wasn't like that. For me, it was a process, and he was he was gracious with me, he was kind with me enough to where even when I started, like I still had parts of me that was still holding on to my to my stuff that I didn't want to fully give up, but I still wanted to go to church, and he was kind enough. But then there came a point where he said, I want to change you, I want to use you, but I can't use you like that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:24:02

And he let me ask you a question about that. Uh, because I think that gets misconstrued too. Um were you do you think you were holding on to things because they were pleasure for you, or were you holding on to things because um you it was a vulnerability. Like you didn't know how to fully be vulnerable in that area.

SPEAKER_04: 1:24:36

I think it was yeah, like um it was a vulnerability to where I had put on an image, right? Like I had put on this identity and I had influence around me. My sister was a big part of my influence. I have an older sister, and she's actually um and she would always comment about oh, you gotta put you know, this on and that on, and she was like, you don't need to, you know, do all those things to be saved. Like she was she's always, you know, and giving that up was like okay, I'm taking this off. Uh I have to, I have to, I I I'm surrendering all this, and you know, like, but it's that place where it gives me my security. I felt secure with tighter garments because it brought it people like this. Is something like um it brought me security because it it was almost like that was my comfort. Not attention. No, it was not attention. I never used I I used to use that, right? I did at one point, but there came a point to where in my mind the enemy would play with my head and say, if you had worn pants, you wouldn't have been molested. And that was my stronghold for many, many, many years. Was if I wear pants, they can't hurt me. Oh yeah they won't be able to touch me. And that's how that that was my stronghold for many, many, many years. And it came to a point to where, and when I meant God was a gentleman, I was I was back in church. I I came back to church when my daughter was two weeks before my daughter turned two. So she so in getting back, it wasn't one, two, three, um back. No, no, no, no, no. It was progression over time. He instantly did deliver me from the demonic oppression. Yes, he did. Um, and the sleep, you know, I think I had spoken with you, I don't know if I had spoken with you about it, but I had told someone that um the moment that minister prayed, the sleep paralysis tried to come back one more time. And I remember my mom said, just say Jesus, Alicia. And I said Jesus, and it literally flew off and left. And when when we talk about spiritual warfare, it's very real. The spirit realm is very real, very real. And I think that um when people leave, it's the enemy using the offense, using the bitterness.

SPEAKER_02: 1:27:12

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04: 1:27:13

All those little roots, and then here comes a voice to try to toy with your head.

SPEAKER_02: 1:27:17

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 1:27:18

And um, you know, it's in coming back, it's been one, you know, like layer after layer. And then it came to the point to where I moved under the pastor I have now, and they have been very gracious to where they they didn't they don't fruit police. That's the one thing my pastor has always said. He said, We don't fruit police. And when I came here, it's where God really started developing a relationship with him, me and him, just me and him. And this is the best thing I could have ever done. When people, you know, living for God is the best thing you will ever do.

SPEAKER_02: 1:28:11

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04: 1:28:12

It there is a cross. There is there is that price of that surrender, right? That vulnerability. I threw all my makeup and all the dresses I had, the pants. My daughter had got sick one night. The Lord told me, I saved you for me. He told me that. And the moment he told me that, I went and I threw everything away. And I said, Okay, God, all right, I need you to do this for me, though. And God did. And it has been since then, God has shown himself in my life in every situation. And it doesn't mean that coming back, you won't have battles, you won't have situations arise. Because I have. I I have. And I do. And and there have been things that have happened, you know, to my own, you know, my own um, there are things that happen to someone you love, but because I went through that, I can identify really quick. And I know what to pray for, and I know how to counterattack the enemy.

SPEAKER_02: 1:29:23

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:29:25

And I now know, like, you know, when when things come, no, I've been through so much. You can't take me out. You try to do that when I was little, you try to do that through this, you ain't taking me out. Because there is something that I paid. I paid a price. I don't, you know, there's there's a price that you do pay, I do believe. And that is, but it's it's but living for this is so much greater.

SPEAKER_01: 1:29:51

Yeah. Yeah. And the the the price that we pay is not one God inflicts, it's one that we willingly choose. There's a there's a die a dying to self that is the most liberating thing I think that any of us can experience, you know. And and I I tell people if if living for God was not the greatest thing that I've ever experienced, I wouldn't be doing it. I'd still be out there chasing all the things that I chased before. And I had some really great opportunities that would have afforded me a lot of things in this life, but nothing compares, nothing compares to the presence of God, the voice of God, the the relationship with God. There's just nothing that will ever compare. And I think I love what you said about, you know, you never did find your place to fit. And and I never did find my place either. And I fit great in the world in areas, and I had a level of success and um it never fit in with the church, but I I I now understand that I believe personally that that was all by design. I wasn't meant to fit, I was meant to to belong to the Lord, and once that piece is in alignment, everything else falls into place because I'm not looking for it to come from other places or even people. I I'm I'm secure in the Lord, and then everything else falls in place. And I think that's what you were saying too, is you know, our place is in him.

SPEAKER_04: 1:31:35

Yeah, and that's the thing is that um when I was in the world, I couldn't fit. I would be in clubs, and like you said, I could have, I could have at a time there was that opportunity, right? I there was opportunity to where I could have been with this person, right? Um, but even then I did not fit in. There were times I was at a club and I was talking about God.

SPEAKER_01: 1:32:00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:32:02

And they're like, what are you doing here? What are you doing here?

SPEAKER_01: 1:32:04

Always there, always there as a backslider.

SPEAKER_04: 1:32:07

And and there were places I was at that I should have bad things should have happened to me, like really ugly, horrible things should have happened, but they didn't. I wasn't under the umbrella, but because somebody was praying for me.

SPEAKER_02: 1:32:24

Yeah, God was protected. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:32:27

And and I believe that it was a design planned by him. Because when you're his, you're his. You you and you know, like you said, you make your bed in hell. Yeah, I was deep. I was deep in it. I was deep in it, and I wanted to get out, but I didn't know how to get out. And there was that that that that lie that the devil would tell me, like, well, you're gonna have to give that up, and you're gonna have to get this up, and you know, you you you know, you can't do this and that. And that's the lie that he tells people when they're out of church, is that it always about first the standards, the offensive what somebody did to you. Oh, they're all this way, and it's all to keep you out of the house of God. But I can tell you that nothing compares to the presence of him. And and you made a comment earlier where you said, like, there are other denominations, and there is nothing compared to this truth. Like, um, you know, I I remember going to my my aunt's church because I was just trying to get something because I didn't want to, I didn't want to go to where I knew it was really at, because I didn't want to surrender, right? So I would just kind of just go to my aunts, but I knew like, no, and that that's not defraying from you know my aunt's faith. But it's for me, I knew I knew better. I knew better. And there were people there that said, what are you doing here? Even at her church, they knew they said, You talk different. Because our language is different. Like there are times when I can hear someone speaking in tongues and I know like I can feel it. I I I can now that you know, um I can see when the Holy Ghost is like you can see it, you can see it moving and feel his presence. And there is there is nothing like it. The glory of God it is it was worth everything I have been through for that moment where to feel him again, to feel the chains off of me, to feel his presence and that lightness.

SPEAKER_02: 1:34:45

Yeah, the freedom.

SPEAKER_04: 1:34:47

Yeah, the freedom. And that is what I hope those can receive from this is that you can run, you can mask. But at the end of the day, there's nothing compared to the glory of God. And sometimes you will lose your family in this. Sometimes you will lose some things, but it is worth it. And God never takes anything out that he's not gonna put better back in.

SPEAKER_01: 1:35:15

And and I just want to say too, um, as we wrap up, God never takes, he only offers. He he always offers a choice, you know, for people listening. Um, God is a gentleman, and and I can see many times across my life when I was living for God, when I wasn't living for God, and as I've been back living for God, uh the Lord always comes to me and and asks me, you know, and gives me the choice to choose. That's where free will comes in. Um, but he's never going to point his finger and say, you either do this or you know, that that's not who God is. That's never been who God is. That's what the enemy would like for us to think. Um, but God is a gentleman, and whatever whatever we do choose to give up, um we do it, we do it because, you know, number one, he always gives back way more than what we can ever give to him. But he gives us the choice because I believe he's got something for us on the other side of that. And those kinds of things only come through trust. And we do not learn to trust God until we go through some things and he has shown up for us, and then we begin to understand that he really is trustworthy and he really does love us. And so I think there's many prodigals out there who grew up in my generation, Alicia's generation, who left for very similar reasons. I think all of us have different reasons, but at the end of the day, most of us were not leaving God. We were leaving um parents, we were leaving abuse, we were leaving standards, we were trying to find our place to fit in. But I say this with every episode: God is um worth giving another second chance to. So, Alicia, as I wrap up, um, I always end with these two questions. Um, what would you say to the prodigal out there who hasn't returned yet? If if a prodigal is listening, what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_04: 1:37:39

Come home. This is home.

SPEAKER_01: 1:37:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:37:44

There is a place for you at the table.

SPEAKER_01: 1:37:48

And it's not the way you think it's gonna be.

unknown: 1:37:51

No.

SPEAKER_01: 1:37:51

Coming home was never the way I thought it would look. It's not the way you thought it would look. It's better. Way better.

SPEAKER_04: 1:38:00

And the thing is, is that there are arms that do want to hold you. There is a place.

SPEAKER_01: 1:38:06

And what about the parent out there who has a prodigal or a spouse that has a lost loved one? What would you say to the parent that has a prodigal?

SPEAKER_04: 1:38:17

Keep praying. Don't give up. Keep praying. I know it I know it looks hard. I know there are days where your prodigal might, you know, might test or it might feel unbearable. But they are hearing you and they do know. This is the thing is that a prodigal knows. We already know the Bible. We already know what to do. We already know. We just need your love. Your love. We need you to be that that safe place and to that parent, be that, show them love. You do more with love than you do with this and this and this, correcting and always trying to put the Bible in front of them. They don't we we already know what to do. Yeah, I already knew what to do. Um, but that's what I can say is that God does honor a parent's faithfulness. He honored my mom. And as much as things have happened between that relationship, I am so thankful I had a mom who taught me truth and parents who raised me and reared me in this.

SPEAKER_01: 1:39:24

Yeah. Well, thank you for being here, Alicia. And um thank you for having me. God bless you. I'm anxious to see what God does in your life. I appreciate your testimony. Okay. Thank you. See you later.

SPEAKER_04: 1:39:38

See you later. God bless.

SPEAKER_00: 1:39:40

We are so glad you joined us. If you have a story of redemption or have worn the label of a backslider, we would love to hear from you. If you'd like to support our ministry, your donation will be tax deductible. Visit our website at the Redeemed Backslider.org. We hope you will tune in for our next episode.