The Redeemed Backslider
“Welcome to The Redeemed Backslider—with your host, Kathy Chastain, Christian-based psychotherapist and a redeemed backslider. This podcast dedicated to those who have wandered but are ready to return to the life-changing power of grace and the freedom found in Jesus.
In Luke 4:18, Jesus proclaimed: ‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because He has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed.’
This is the heart of our message. Whether you’re wrestling with regret, despair, seeking freedom from spiritual chains, or longing to see the light of God’s love again, you’re not alone. Here, we share testimonies, biblical truths, and encouragement to remind you that no one is too far gone for God’s redemption.
This is your invitation to find healing, hope, and restoration in Jesus. Welcome to The Redeemed Backslider—where grace is greater than your past and your future is abundant when God redeems your story.”
The Redeemed Backslider
Preacher, Prisoner, Surrendered - TRB #35 - Michael Torres
A five-year-old meets God in a prayer meeting. A teenager discovers he doesn’t fit. A young preacher catches fire, then loses his footing in a storm of loneliness, loss, and regret. Years later, a desperate father bargains for his unborn child’s life on a Yosemite worksite—and God answers. This conversation with Michael Torres is the unvarnished arc of calling tested by catastrophe: from pulpit to prison to purpose.
We walk through the tender memories that formed him—Bible quizzes after school, old hymns on a white piano, the exact spot where he first felt called to preach. We name the ache of isolation and the pressure to fit that so many sensitive kids carry. We sit with the painful honesty of a marriage that should not have been, and a crisis of faith that followed. Michael explains how control became a counterfeit refuge that led to four bank robberies he planned in meticulous detail. Then the dragnet, the arrest, and the heat of a cell where he chose gratitude over bitterness and asked for a Bible.
It's not everyday, a preacher becomes a bank robber. Tune in a listen how God has redeemed his life and is rewriting his future!
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Kathy has two books out and they can be found on Amazon or Barnes & Noble online:
Redeem California, With God it IS Possible:
God of the Impossible: 30-Prayers for the Redemption and Restoration of California
Welcome to the Redeemed Backslider. With your host, Kathy Chestdain, Christian-based psychotherapist and Redeemed Backslider. This podcast is dedicated to those who have wandered but are ready to return to the life-changing power of grace and the freedom found in Jesus.
SPEAKER_07:Hi, welcome to the Redeemed Backslider. I'm your host, Kathy Chestain. I'm a Redeemed Backslider and I'm a Christian-based psychotherapist. With me today in the studio, who came down from Martinez area, right? Richmond. Richmond, wow, even further is Michael Torres. And his dad, who you can't see, is behind uh on the other side of the camera, he actually lives here. So Michael came down to see his dad and come into the studio with us, which is always so much nicer when we can do it in studio. So thank you so much for being here.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah. This is crazy. And so we had a nice little conversation off camera before we started. And Michael knows Pastor Kane from CLC, which is such a small world when everybody starts talking. And then, and then your dad is uh part of the pastoral team from Fortress of Truth here. Retired pastor from there, which is here in our town. And um anyway, so it it is such a small world, and um, and God is definitely working in in us backsliders.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, he is.
SPEAKER_07:So I'm excited to hear your story. And so I sent a little questionnaire out, yeah. Uh, which I just started kind of doing actually. Um, and you backslid at age 30, which uh is is interesting to me that it was so much later in life. So tell me what life was like in your childhood and teenage years and adult years um before you backslid at age 30. I would guess you had a relationship with God for a very long time before you walked away. Yeah. Right. So walk me through the beginning, what that was like.
SPEAKER_01:Um, so uh it's funny. I was thinking about it. I didn't plan on saying much about it. Um, but I got the Holy Ghost at five years old in Madera, California. Um my dad was assisting brother Clifford Clark at the time. It was a uh prayer meeting. I can still tell you uh the exact spot in the church where I got the Holy Ghost.
SPEAKER_07:Um I'm amazed at one of my friends who's on the podcast, um, Courtney Rakestraw, she got the Holy Ghost at three years old. Oh, that's so awesome. And I was like, and I talked to her for a while about that because I see children in my practice and and I, you know, in the developmental process, how man, that's I feel like that's a miracle of God when He gives the Holy Ghost to kids that young. There's something special.
SPEAKER_01:Very special.
SPEAKER_07:I mean, it's always special when someone gets the Holy Ghost, but I think when you get it that young, it it feels to me like there is a lifetime and a lifelong calling from birth. Yes. Sort of. You know what I'm like Samuel. Yes, yes, and uh I'm so wow, that's beautiful.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07:I can uh and also people don't remember memories at that early, but you do. Oh yeah, and she did.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah, I I remember one night uh we were in uh this one we lived in Madeira Acres. Um I was praying for money. I needed some money, and I asked Jesus for money, and uh they had given me a roll top desk, and uh, I was telling I I well I'd asked my mom for money and she said, Why don't you pray? So I prayed, and then I opened the roll top desk and there was money there. Oh so I could still that's one of my memories of praying for something and God answering my prayers. Yeah, and uh I I do remember um that's one that I actually hold on and hold on to, right? Um then uh I do the bat being baptized. I could still remember. But I had a buddy named Stephen Mantuth, I think he's a pastor somewhere. He is, yeah. Um, but he had just got the Holy Ghost and got baptized, and he's like, Man, it feels like new skin. And sure enough, I when I got baptized, I was I came out and I'll never I can still remember. I was five years old. Wow, and I still remember uh feeling like new skin. Wow, yeah, yeah. Wow, yeah, it was awesome.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, and wonderful that you remember, I mean, because it is an experience, and I think they psychologists talk about how memory is related to emotion, and so typically we remember the bad because the emotion is so big, right? But getting the Holy Ghost and getting baptized is also such a big emotion and experience because it's undeniable.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, it's undeniable. You can't take it away from me. You can't take that away from me.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um in the middle of all that, uh, we went to Brother Clark left, and then um a pastor named Brother Bo came, Kenneth Bo, and then we went and to LA, Bellflower. Okay. And my dad helped him, and then started a couple he started a couple churches over there. Um a gypsy church. Well, I think they call it Romano Romano now. I don't want to back then, you know what, you know. Anyways, it's a romano church.
SPEAKER_07:Uh I don't know what that means.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I think gypsy is not what we use anymore. Not politically correct. Yeah, yeah. So I think they call it Romano.
SPEAKER_07:I think but it's like a uh free um it it's the ethnic, the ethnicity of them.
SPEAKER_01:Uh there uh he started church with the Romano people that I always thought a gypsy was like a vagabond. Well, that's that's the I think that's why it's an uh politically incorrect now to use uh because of that, right?
SPEAKER_07:I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, yeah, good to know. Beautiful people, yeah. Uh, you know, and it's funny because now growing up around them and stuff like that, I I we recognize them and stuff.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And they're like, what? I'm like, they're like, you're a guy show, you know, like you know, also and I still remember all that. And uh, anyways, but it's because people don't speak Romano, they don't listen.
SPEAKER_07:I didn't never know it was a um ethnicity.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's really cool. It's a it's inter they're interesting people too.
SPEAKER_07:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Um, so um then uh there uh in Bellflower, um when we we I I had some some pretty good very good memories there as well. But um uh that's where he started a Spanish work and uh the gypsy work. But in the middle of that, it was really cool. It was after school. Uh I had these, these are some of my memories that are you know uh he had a Bible class and um I remember this is my first time actually um filling a purpose. Like um he would have these uh wow, I didn't realize it was gonna hit me like this. Um We have in there on purpose. Yeah, uh so he uh he would have these um quizzes and um on like who wrote the book of you know Genesis or Acts or and then memorizing the the the books of the Bible and I remember studying the Bible and I think that's where I fell in love with God. I think that's where I fell in love with his word. And um that that little class after ch after school was my favorite class and I loved it and had candy and and toys, but it was learning the word of God, and I was so happy to know him. And uh anyways, uh then my mom would um my mom would play these uh records or records uh of all the uh of the stories, the Bible stories, and and I fell in love with those stories and I would lay down, they had a uh old wooden um I cannot believe this. That's good.
SPEAKER_07:That means your heart is tender. That's good, Michael.
SPEAKER_01:Um they had this old record player, uh it was wood, and and uh the record player was in the top, and you would open the the cabinets, and they would that's where the records were, and we had the entire Bible stories all on records? Yeah, on records. Oh wow, it was so cool. And you know, you put it on, right? And if it skipped, you have to get up and you know fix it. And um we also had a white upright piano, and my mom would play that white upright piano at and sing and uh worship God at night. And uh so I still remember a lot of these old, old songs uh that even people my age don't know. Probably like the Rambos and the Yes, the Rambo, yes, yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_07:I I'll pull those up now and again on YouTube because that's my childhood too, right? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, good stuff. Or uh uh James Cleveland. Uh I've had my share of life's ups and downs.
SPEAKER_07:Yes, I didn't know who sang that. Because uh Nancy Grantquist, I think, recorded that. Oh yeah. Um so that's who I know for. She's amazing.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I love Nancy Grantquist. Yeah, uh, I'd like to bring her up at some point. Um, yes, I actually remember them coming through Madeira when they were doing the whole uh tour.
SPEAKER_07:Right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. I still remember that. Like it's pretty crazy. Um, and then uh do you probably remember uh Pass the Torch then?
SPEAKER_04:No.
SPEAKER_01:Uh in the eight it was like 81, 82. Um, the uh the Western District at the time was United, right? Um they there was uh Olympics in LA and they did this uh pass the torch thing and they came through and you'd uh walk a mile or run a mile. I remember running a mile with my mom. I think I was five, I had to been about five. I had to been five, because I think we were five when we moved to LA. So yeah, I still remember all that. I think Brother Williams was the one that um yeah, I and they they had the the shirt and it said pass the torch and all that. Um I have these memories, right? It's crazy. God has been um definitely a part of my life, and then um, so in the middle of all that, the studying the falling in love with the Bible, um a little um I was watching some of your podcasts. Uh um it was uh Sister Haney or Montez or um Yeah, Stephanie Haney Montez, yes. Thank you. Um she said that she felt isolated. Uh and yeah, I did, definitely, all those years. Um different, different, right? Uh I connected with Stephanie because uh she has a um sanguine personality, yet still felt isolated. And I had a sanguine, I didn't really have other than I mentioned Stephen Mantue, that was the only really really friend I had um that whole time. And it was it was it wouldn't be what you would consider a best friend, you know. Um so that was the closest I had. But nothing against him. I love him. Don't please.
SPEAKER_07:It's just just experiences right as a kid. Yeah. Yeah, finding our friendships and where we fit, where we don't fit. Right. Right. And I think a lot of backsliders share that commonality that we felt like we didn't fit.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_07:You know, and looking back, I don't know how you feel, but um I didn't fit, but I think that had to do with my own woundedness. Yeah. And my inability to feel comfortable within my own skin and deal with the things that was troubling me, you know. Yes. Um, and I think too, it was a lot of sensitivity. I I'm gonna guess, because I got an idea about you already. But I think when people are really highly sensitive, yes, we're acutely aware of others, and so we're reacting to what other people probably don't even realize they're transmitting.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07:It took us all these years to figure that out.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's it, that's what it is. Um, we had um some of the epic things that would happen. Obviously, the night stalker was in LA. Uh, I remember when uh he got caught. The neighbors, we all came out, you know, and everybody was cheering and happy.
SPEAKER_07:Was that in your area? Yeah, that was in your wow.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Um, it'll I'll never forget because we listened to the radio, we didn't watch TV, right? Right. So um our neighbor, well, it was all here. The neighbor would always like let us come over and we'd watch Mr. Rogers and listen.
SPEAKER_07:I think the Pentecost watch TV when they weren't supposed to watch TV. And then they just hide it when company came over at night. That's why we think about hypocrites because it was so Yeah. When you're a little kid, it doesn't make sense.
SPEAKER_01:No, it's funny now though. Yeah, yeah. Uh so we would um, you know, uh my mom was she wasn't um a proponent of guns, but during that time, she made my dad get the gun out, you know, because it was very scary. It was what we call earthquake weather, so it was hot and uh so you people would keep the windows open. Right. And uh uh, but in the middle of all that, uh, she would come and read uh stories. Um we had these bunk beds, and she read about Pearl Harbor and all that, but she'd always read us uh stories from the Bible. And um she would tell me these stories about David, and I genuinely believe this. Um well, you know, God is immutable, right? And so because he's unchangeable, you can look at what he's done and know what he does. Right because he's got right something perfect can't change because if it changes, it becomes imperfect. So this perfect God would set has always set things in motion, he's already in in front of us and behind us. Right. So I I genuinely believe by looking at what he's done, that he's done this before. So he was setting my mom up with me, telling me stories uh that would help me later in life later on when I needed it. And uh David has been um so you know, not me, but scholars think, because I don't know, I wasn't there, but scholars believe um they're much smarter than me that David had uh bipolar.
SPEAKER_07:And um if you read uh his psalms, you know, they're like they are they are one psalm is joyful, the other one is depressive, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. So um, you know, uh holding on to that and looking at somebody that you can kind of kind of connect with. Um, my mom gave me David, yeah. And um, so um that helped me. Um, and she gave me the stories of you know overcoming and and the difference between David and Saul. And those stories have have um have helped me immensely.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, so I do remember when the Night Stalker was caught, and uh, I mean, you go to the donut shop, and there's his face and all that, right? Like, um, I'll never forget that. But uh, and the neighbor came over to to um like tell us because we didn't have a TV, but we already heard it on the radio. Every, I'm telling you, everybody was in the streets celebrating, hugging, and yeah, it was almost like you know, I you hear these stories about World War II, how about people doing that's actually how it was in our neighborhood. Everybody's out cheering and all that. I still I assume that. And then in 87, um, we lived in um uh La Marata. La Marada. And that was the Whittier earthquake that happened there. Oh, yeah. Remember that.
SPEAKER_07:Uh I remember um Northridge. Yes, I don't remember the Whittier one, but I remember Northridge.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, that was in 90, right? Or 91. I don't I don't know. Um well it was funny. The the funny thing about it was, I mean, not as an ha-ha, but that was a very dangerous earthquake that people died. If I would have gone to school that day, the whole ceiling fell right where I was sitting.
SPEAKER_07:Oh wow, yeah. So God spared you. He did, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:He did, he 100% did. Um I'll never forget that day. Um uh, you know, I can remember waking up and the whole thing shaking, and we already had earthquake, you know, um uh practices already.
SPEAKER_07:And then, you know, yeah, those were the days when they taught us that in elementary school, right? We had the drills. I remember that too, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I get up, get my I get my brother and his uh uh our he's like a his family, Casey Clark, who grabbed him and I got him and put him under the bed, and then um our parents came to the you know, they're in the doorway holding all you guys all right?
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, all right.
SPEAKER_01:Um but I remember all that, and then um incidentally, um we left. There was a a church situation that happened, um, and uh we all had to leave. Uh so um, and that that was my spiritual earthquake, right? Like all of a sudden the people that have we like the clerks were we're very close. Um our our school was really cool. It would it'd be Tuesday through Friday.
SPEAKER_07:Was it a Christian school? Or or okay. So you you grew up going to Christian school? Well, you're fortunate.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:I know. I went to public school. Trust me, I think I I know there's pros and cons to both, but yeah, I look back, I'm grateful to have been raised in a Christian home. Yeah, you know, and public school just made me aware of what else is out there, I guess, that I probably may not have noticed otherwise. But I know that, you know, when you're in a Christian school, there's a lot of confinement as well. So I think maybe it's just individual for people.
SPEAKER_01:I think if if I would if I was gonna run a Christian school, I would focus on the teachers because the students should be the main goal, right? Um I think that's Christian schools are important. Um I've I d I used to be hate I used to hate Christian schools.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But I've done a full kind of circle, and especially now when I'm looking um because the Jesus said uh he taught that we're salt and light. And the ingredients don't work if if light's not being shown, if salt's not in the in the in the so it's not isolation, it's separation. You can be separated in a pile, like you know, different uh you look different, right?
SPEAKER_06:Right.
SPEAKER_01:So um so it's not isolation. Yeah, it's not isolation. But we do need to protect our kids. And I think um I think protecting our kids is um putting the right teachers in in in in their life. And if you can't, if you can't afford to have those teachers, maybe do homeschool that because um those are the things that bad teacher can make a big difference. It makes it horrible, it makes either way. If you have a good teacher, it's like Sister Gibson, great. I'm not gonna mention the bad teachers because they're probably still alive.
SPEAKER_07:But when you're a kid, it hurts. It's horrible. It really sti I mean, I have you know, 60-year-old clients, 70-year-old clients that still talk about their childhood and their high school days and their elementary days because when they were bullied or they had a bad teacher, like they believe that they internalize that and it affects them their whole life.
SPEAKER_01:I still forgive these teachers every day. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07:So I think there's so some seeds were already getting planted. As much as you loved God, yeah, there was still some things that was hurting you along the way.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Uh yeah, and then that's what happened. We we that's that that's the journey that things split up right in there in that end time. I remember my my favorite Christmas was in uh Lakewood. Uh I was I turned seven. That was my first my birthday's Christmas Eve, so like it's all kind of it's easy to remember. But um, anyways, so uh but after the that earthquake, we came up to we moved to Modesto because of all the the things that happened there. And um uh just to be clear, and the Clarks were amazing, it had nothing to do with them. It was like there was uh I think it was a church split actually. I you know what it was a church split, I believe what it was, and um, and so they had to leave and we had to leave too because we were all part of it. So um, and that's different, right? Because you're a kid, you're not really understanding everything, and you see that the Clarks are righteous people. Like I was gonna say, it was Tuesday through Friday, so we would spend the weekend together, we go for service, and then Monday we'd hang out, so we'd go to Disneyland, or it was cool, right? Like it was we go to the Mojave Desert, these were m great memories, you know. And then all of a sudden that's taken away. And uh I was already a lonely kid, already not you know, really didn't have any friends. Um, so they take that away. It was uh it was a little more traumatic than I guess I I realized. Uh but we come up to Modesto, and um there it was the the funny thing about was the next one was an 89 earthquake with uh I remember that because I'm an A. Oh, the Bay Area. Yeah, yeah. So I actually felt that one. So we won an earthquake and there's a trend with you in earthquakes. I remember seeing the cars going. I was trying to do my homework and I was listening to the A's game on the radio on the radio uh in my dad's office. But anyway, so it was some funny things about that. But um, so there, um, but in Modesto, I started um having friends. It was a guy named Chris Williams, who was my first friend, and um then um um him and then it was uh uh Tim Powell. I met him at um Donkey Rock um uh junior camp. Um and uh that was the place to go, you know. Even all the pre PK kids would go, like um Heidi Grandquist, all of them, you know, like all of the it would all go, you know. And uh so that was fun. But and that that's where I met uh Temple, and then ended up that uh his dad um was also used pastor in Fireball at one time, then he was going to Modesto. And uh so we all um just kind of converged slowly together, and uh so he became one of my best friends, and then I met a d uh another kid at camp um named David Short. And uh so those are the two that I for the first time in my life I actually had real friends. Good.
SPEAKER_08:How old were you?
SPEAKER_01:So this uh Tim Pau was a nine. I was nine years old with Tem Pau, and then David was ten.
SPEAKER_07:So you you already understood loneliness at that early of an age.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah. I I wonder where where because your personality's still developing, right? Yeah you know, and the self-awareness also is still developing. How did you recognize where do you think the loneliness came from at such an early age?
SPEAKER_01:Um I think that's a good question. I think uh not fitting any of the boxes, you know.
SPEAKER_07:But in what way? Because this was all your observation, right? Your internal awareness. What did you notice? I mean, where were you feeling like you didn't uh fit?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, that's a good um yeah. Uh well, like it's like I mean the kids would point it out too, right? Like, um, because I'm imaginative, you know, I would think of things. I like to you know Creative Creative, yeah, yeah, yeah. And um and I and and and it would be weird, like um the kids we would it was always uh some weird like oh okay, here's a perfect example. Um we were we had like a it was like a a kids' night, we were all there. Well um maybe this I shouldn't say the story, um, but um we were boxing and it was me, and I was the youngest against all of them. Like I would box one, knock him down, and then the next one would come, and the next one, and it would and it was it was literally me versus all of them. And in games it was constantly being me versus all of them.
SPEAKER_07:It was like they kind of naturally Oh yeah, so yeah, gravitated together as a club. Yeah. Okay, so you notice that right away, right? What do you make of that now that you are what what do you notice about that now? Uh you know I that you've come back to the Lord.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. I um i it dude it still happens in the um I think um I mean this is gonna sound pretentious, I don't mean it to sound this way, but it seems like they see something that makes them feel less bored and they don't like it, whether they understand it or not. Um so um because of that, their reaction is you know, and um so I don't know, people call it jealousy or whatever, but it whatever it is.
SPEAKER_07:Um I've always said or felt, I think the Lord revealed this to me, and maybe it was just a way to comfort me, because again, it's not a pretentious thing, it's uh it's it's a endeavor to understand, you know, and um but I felt like a leader never fits in with the crowd. And so when the crowd, you know, the leader is always apart from and the crowd is always congregated, and Jesus was never part of the crowd, he was always leading, and he never fit either, and it's it's not that because le leaders come in all shapes and sizes, and you know, I could lead in one little fragment of life that's my little corner of the world, right? Yeah, but it really helped me to accept being okay with being different, yeah, you know, because I I have a I'm a question asker, you know. I just ask, I see, I notice, I observe. And I I think I've always been that way. But I was also very, very young when I noticed people didn't invite me. Yes, I didn't get invited to birthdays. I don't think I've ever been in a wedding in my life. Oh, and I've and not that I need to, but when all your friends growing up are always in somebody's wedding and then no one ever asks me, I'm like, uh, what's going on here? You know, you try to understand because we can't help but feel rejected by it. And so, um, anyways, I I think it's incredible that you already understood some of that at such an early age. You you clearly had to be very sensitive, you know, and um, but that's what I think. I think leaders never fit with the crowd. So when the crowd isn't accepting you, we should rejoice in that, I think. Yeah, and then figure out, okay, God, where do you have me? Oh, that's good. But there's also gonna be few people that will, you know, I think loneliness um is also loneliness can have to do with childhood trauma and rejection, but it also can be the mark of ministry or the prophetic ministry, because walking with God is is a one-on-one walk, and it can also often be very lonely. I've heard so many people that um operate in prophetic ministry at being very, very isolating.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:And I and I I believe that that's by God's design. Yeah, you know, yeah, but it it helps to understand those things because we I mean, still I I carry the desire to be accepted and to fit in, you know, even though I am on so many levels, there's still that internal need to just have a place.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you want to be normal. I mean me. I wanted to be normal, right? Right. Yeah. Yeah, I I in prison, rather. That's fast for real fast. Just to highlight that. Um, I'll never forget. I watched this movie over and over again because it was a sandstorm and they just put it on a loop. Um, but it was this there was a saying in it the one reason why I kept watching it because they kept relating to these there were these outcast um outlaws that were saving the day kind of thing. And one of them would say normal. Normal's just a setting on the washer machine. Yeah, you know what I mean? We can't normal. So yeah, that's what I wanted. I wanted to be like the rest of them. I wanted to fit, I wanted to fit with them. And it it just wasn't happening.
SPEAKER_07:But man, Michael, it sounds like God had such a special touch of your life uh man from the beginning, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. I'd I I definitely still remember some prayer meetings with him. Um even as a little kid, it's something funny that you brought that up. Um we would I would um I remember I was I just was over there at the church in Modesto uh in October. Um I just was wanting to see my kids and then um so I was hanging out and they were getting the ha the church ready for uh a service, so I ended up helping them paint. Um but in that section uh there was a little step that I would always go and pray and I remember uh I that memory came back when I'm looking at it, you know, I was kinda in that I was right there. And I remember that was where God uh called me the first time. And uh so I had to been nine or ten. And uh but it was at that step. Um I can still remember it. I still remember, I still remember praying.
SPEAKER_07:What did he say?
SPEAKER_01:That's so crazy. He's all you're called. I'm calling you to preach. And um, I didn't want to be a preacher, I didn't like it. Um, my dad would talk about this is a beautiful life, and I'm like, this is terrible. I can't watch TV, I can't play sports. This is horrible. What are you talking about? I remember I don't want this, like um because we don't understand at that age, you know. Yeah, no, and and then these uh I'm I'm calling you and I was praying, and I'm like, Are you sure? I don't I don't know I don't want this, you know, but um but I think deep down I did, like, you know, because I want to be used, I wanted to be uh have a purpose, right? Yeah, and I found if I found that purpose. So that was the first time, yeah. And it was like I remember it, yeah. I'm I'm calling you, I'm calling you to preach. And so um there it was, and uh some okay, and then um fast forward what uh going uh to school and all that, and um I trying to fit in. Um well, so David Short showed up uh in my sixth grade, and that was uh the first time so Tim Pal still wasn't going to our school yet. David Short, um, I remember seeing him. I'm like, what you're in my school? So I finally had a friend my age, yeah, it was really cool, and um that was that was the real friendship. That was the first real friendship I had um in going to school, and um so we we ended up living in the same town, riding bikes. Uh, we'd ride bikes to each other's house and stuff like that. Um, so that was my first okay. I have a real friend. Well, he's different, so you have two kids that are different, right? You know, and uh so we we got it was God, yeah, absolutely put you together, yes, yeah, orchestrated from the beginning, all the way. And um so in that that was a good year. That was Sister Gibson was my teacher. And um we had like nine kids in that class, it was perfect. It was it was it was perfect, and uh so it's so out of that class, it was uh me, um so uh David Short, um Bobby Rodella, and um Nathan Sandoval. I'm not sure what about Nathan, but I know David's pastoring and Bobby's assistant pastor in Antika. Yeah.
SPEAKER_08:Wow, wonderful.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so that was the special little and then Stephanie Weems is now Jones, I think. I think she's the pastor's wife in um Texas somewhere. So like this little group of people that God put together that, you know. Anyways, so but that was a good year, and then things started moving direction. Uh, but I started wanting to fit in. And uh so in junior high, um, that's when I started, you know.
SPEAKER_07:Um yeah, normal struggles of teenage years. Yeah. Okay, but were you still like in love with God and still pursuing him, even though you probably were struggling in the other areas? It would be or do you feel like you kind of that's when I started?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I was already starting to get a lot of hurt, and um, and then uh so I did actually. I I and I felt like well, if you could smoke weed and all that, that was cool, right? So that's where I wanted to go. I just wanted to be cool. I just wanted to be to fit in. Right, right. And uh all the my friends were older, um, a lot older, uh, because there was nobody other than David Short, but he didn't even go to my church, he was to the series church. So in my church, everybody was older than me. Everybody, and so I I was already going to the high school, uh, Sunday school because there was nobody my age. Yeah, right. So and so all those guys, and um yeah, so I uh noticing girls and all that, and um I wanted I loved their attention alike because I I felt like it was a value thing there, of course, yeah. Yeah, so that's when all that started happening, and then I found that you know, if you're funny and outgoing, that you know, things can happen right, get a little bit more attention, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that um that went that direction. And um, but I still loved God, yeah, and it was hurting me that and I just felt like I couldn't make and then with all that pressure that back then, you know, the the you just didn't think you can make it. I just like well, I remember asking God, like, why'd you even have me alive? I can't, I can't live like I can't, you know?
SPEAKER_07:Because there's so many eyes. I mean, I think growing up when we, you know, I don't know how old you are, but I'm 58 and and the focus was so much on the outward that there was a lot of judgment. And and I don't know that it was ever like nowadays I learn to understand motive, right? Yeah. People don't always, they're not judging you from a bad place of motive. It's just what we learned, right? You know, yeah, it it's just it was a cultural thing and we felt it, but it wasn't because people probably didn't like us. It was just that we are told if you don't do this, then this is what it means. Even you know what I'm saying? So it was very hard. And I think it's an important piece to talk about because there's, you know, and I talk to backsliders and people, that is the biggest hurdle for them to jump in coming back to our church, uh, UPC churches, because that's what they remember that was their experience. And yet, I don't know what it's been like for you, but for me, um it's way different now. And probably because we're mature, sure, and and we it's between us and God, but there's so much more love and acceptance. And I think that when we're kids, we just don't know how to understand it or no talk about it or ask questions about it. It just is it just feels so black and white.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:So so you guys feel that too, huh?
SPEAKER_02:Because girls, we definitely felt it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:But yeah, it does feel like an impossible way to live because any little mistake would make you an outcast. Yeah, yes, exactly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um, yeah. And that and then and you know, so there's a lot that happened there. Um, I uh got in trouble. There's a I don't know if you ever remember it, but there was a convention called PSR, Progression.
SPEAKER_07:I remember that was the beginning of the what's the other organization?
SPEAKER_01:WPF.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, I think PSR was kind of the start of WPF before it finally changed. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07:I remember that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So our church was heavily involved in it. Uh Brother Keys was part of the and but Brother Clark was too. So um, so I from the beginning remember all of it. Um, so I was definitely already feeling the oats, trying to just fit in, trying to find my part, and and it was killing me the whole time. But um I got in trouble. I think uh well, it's it's all under the blood. But uh I it is, but you know what?
SPEAKER_07:There's people out there that haven't come back, so it's yeah, you know, I have no idea what your story is, Michael, but it is so important to be able to share what God has redeemed in your life and and healed because people people often feel like they've gone too far.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah. Well, and and I what happened was I we had we were getting I got I got high and drunk in PSR, is what happened. A lot of people did, and it's senior camp. Yeah, it's in your camp, yeah.
SPEAKER_07:I mean, seriously, Brother Mahaney talks about being at senior camp or camp meeting, and he said he was drunk every single day. And I mean, he's a famous evangelist now. It happens, yeah, yeah, you know, and that's just the reality of what we've lived, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, that's what happened. And I I got in trouble. I got in trouble.
SPEAKER_07:And so from church trouble or law enforcement trouble?
SPEAKER_01:No, of church. They said so. I had to sit with my parents, and um, so this was kind of like this transition part. And um, I was already I was playing the bass for a youth service, and so I I had to sit down from that. And um, so I'm sitting with the youth would sit all on the right side, and my parents, my mom sat on the left side, so I had to sit with that uh my mom. Um, well, brother uh he's my bishop now, but uh Mark Morgan came through and uh he said there's I'm the only one sitting on that side because everybody else is sitting in the youth, right? He says there's a young man over here uh that's gonna uh just point to the section, you know, that uh I believe is uh God told me he's gonna make uh gonna turn his life around tonight. And uh I I still remember this, and I'm like, yeah, right. There's like no way. You know, I I can't do this, you know. And um so with Tim Powell and uh Daniel Warren came, and another kid named Luke, and they're like, dude, after it was preaching when he was done, they're like, You need to go down there, let's go down there. And I'm like, All right, why not? So I walk and um a guy named Julio Hernandez um started praying for me, and uh man, I'll never forget again. God just all over, you know, and and uh I was like, All right, I'm gonna do this again. Let's try it, let's go, you know.
SPEAKER_07:And uh because it was never really about your walk with God, it was learning how to live, right?
SPEAKER_01:Right, yeah, yeah. In this world, yes, yeah, how to make it, right? Yeah, that's powerful, yes. So that that started it, and um, but we didn't really have anybody like we didn't have anybody preaching or anything in our youth. Um, they were already kind of older, and um, so uh because of that, like uh um Jeff Morgan was our youth pastor, and he um anyways, we had that was an extended revival, and so we hadn't had Sunday school in a while. And so Brother Keys said, uh, you guys need to have Sunday school. So that that was like a one of those revivals. So it was uh Saturday or something, Friday or Saturday night. Well, so Sunday morning um brother Keys is teaching in the main sanctuary. We're in the youth section or in the youth chapel, and nobody interrupts Brother Keys. Like nobody, I still I don't think they still interrupt, don't do that. But we're all over here and I have nothing to lose. I'm like, you know, right, you know, and uh he goes, Brother Jeff Morgan's like, if you guys want revival, well, we need some radicals, and he goes, If if you want to do it, I man, I still feel it. You need I want you to take off running, run around the sanctuary, and come back. Well, I'm already in trouble, so I have nothing to lose. So I take off running, right? And unbeknownst to me, all my buddies, all of us, I see my buddies there, you know, they they all ran with me, right? Well, to I didn't know this. Well, brother Keys was in the in the middle of it, his sermon. He goes, you know what we need around here is we need some radicals, right? And just when he said that, here we come running around around there. Um, Jason, who's now we're related to my marriage now, um, man tooth, he I remember it was kind of a funny moment because I look back and uh Jason took that turn too fast to hit the pew and knocked the pew over. He goes rolling, and I'm like, oh no. But we come back in and the Holy Ghost fell, and we have a revival. And I guess that's that sanctuary blew up. And then somehow we found out, and Jeff Morgan says, I want you all, let's all go out there. So we all came out and we all had, and uh, and that was my let's go moment, you know.
SPEAKER_07:And uh and did you live for God after that until you were 30?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that was yeah, yeah. And so um the first time I felt the anointing was like a week later, my dad was doing the testimonies, and we remember testimony, sir? Yeah. So Sunday night, um, but we had it was a big church, and so he'd give you the mic, call up, you know, and give you the mic. And uh I was praying. For some reason, I wasn't praying in the the uh youth chapel, I was praying in the men's prayer meeting uh room, and um I felt like God told me I was gonna testify. So I was like, okay. So I was trying to like, because I used to, I I still don't feel bad about it. I used to make fun of people and some of that, and and like be loud on purpose, clap when nobody's clapping, like just just interrupting. Yeah, yeah. It's horrible, anyways. Um, so I'm like, you know, I I I'm gonna tell I used to make fun, but now tonight I'm a one god apostolic, right? You know, and um, so I'm leaning up against the uh um the uh the altar area, and I'm saying, you know, I'm one god up. And when I did that, it was like fire, like electricity hit me from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet. I I reacted, my body subconsciously reacted. I stepped out and all of a sudden I was yelling. I'm like out in the middle of everywhere, and I'm like, wait, this is crazy. Yeah, and then and uh I used to think the preachers yelled on purpose. I didn't know that it was because of what they were feeling. And um, some of them probably still do preach uh preach on purpose on purpose, but but still, you know, I hear I was. So I'm like, whoa, this is crazy. And then uh the lady after me, who turns out to be an aunt of my pastor now, uh, was like, whoa, I didn't expect that out of him, you know. Um I I want to go back too. There was some miracles that happened along the way. Um, do you know a pastor? Uh he's a prophet named Jerome Bourne. Um, he came to our church and said that people are gonna give a thousand dollars. This is obviously a long time ago. A thousand bucks was a lot, and I didn't have a job. And I felt like I was gonna give in the middle of all that when I before, you know, so I did, and God, I had been praying for years since I was in Madeira, five years old, praying for a bulldog. And one day at school, uh uh one of my uh uh the parents comes up and says, Hey, do you still want a bulldog? I'm like, Yeah, and he gave me an English bulldog paper. Yeah, wow.
SPEAKER_08:We have those are very expensive, yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Back then we had puppies, and I was able to sell them for like 1500 bucks, a thousand bucks, you know. Yeah, so I was able to give a thousand dollars um to the thing. So that kind of that all happened too. Like that was really cool little moments there, but uh so God was always with me. But that was, and then um, so after I testified, um, the guy that was in charge of chapel goes, Hey, I want you to preach. So he had me and Tempel preach. And I mean, I just prayed through, like it wasn't like you know, but we didn't have anybody, right? And um, so I did, and I felt the anointing again, and it was like, Whoa, this is so cool! Like, I was I it was like so um that happened, and uh so uh talking about walk with God. Um so in the middle of all this, uh I I um brother Jeff Morgan had me like assist him uh because John Davis had left, and uh so and that was my deal. I just immediately was just like God started opening doors for me to preach and I started preaching and started learning. Um and I just um fell in love with him, really did. And um, but so I would have these lows and these highs, and I would go to the church and pray and pray and pray. Um I it got to a point where uh Sonitrol was the um alarm system um that they would get and knew me by name because I'd call them, say, hey, I'm gonna be praying, I'd be in my dad's office. And um, and uh those were the moments that had sustained me, would hold on to me and stuff. And we were talking about loneliness, and I'd be asking God and trying to trying to wrestle with all this. And I didn't realize as that these lonely times, that this loneliness, this separated, like feeling different, um, and then the lows that you feel and the highs, that um those were actually gifts from God.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And that would drive me to my face if talk to him, you know?
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And um, so not fitting in was a blessing. Not fitting in, not being normal, just setting on a washing machine was a gift. And the whole time I didn't know realize it was a gift.
SPEAKER_08:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Um, and even in the that moment I didn't realize it.
SPEAKER_07:Right. Yeah, after the fact, I think.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07:God kind of gives understanding to those things.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. And it was because of that, it kind of shot me forward and I started preaching around and stuff like that. And there was there was kids that made me feel more isolated because other kids would be like, Hey, how come he's preaching and treating me a little bit different? But they didn't realize this because I'm going through it, I'm you know f hitting a wall, I call it, you know what I mean? Right. And so I had to stay on my face, I had to pray, I had to fast, um, I had to do these things just to make it right, right? Just to walk. Yeah, and uh um, so uh God started using me. I started uh preaching out we had uh um these uh daughter works, I think. Um anyways, um so we I'd go and start preaching for them stuff. I never preached for money, I didn't care, like it just it was my purpose. And uh I had the the second time was I was gonna I was gonna mention was when I that was a solidifying call because I was like, God, I don't have anything. I don't have I don't if I don't preach, I don't I don't have it like I don't have a trade, I don't have a lot of people. Nothing to fall back on. Nothing. Right. Yeah. And uh he and he's like, you know, I definitely you know, I I'm I'm I've called you. And sure enough, the guy uh right uh so it was like you know two or three witnesses, right? Uh God will talk to you first and then confirm it with other people. And sure enough, uh the other guy came up because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell you you're called a God, you know, to preach. And so I was like, Yeah, that was just the confirmation that God had already told me. So okay, so so I'm all in. I go uh we're doing I'm doing Bible college um through uh a couple different avenues. Um, and I was reading, studying, trying to, you know, do my best, you know. Right. And um and I we started preaching revivals. I preached up in Canada, um, preached at senior camp, like a little they'll they had a little slot, I'll never forget that. A couple little slots. Man, the Holy Ghost moved. Um, I guess there's some tapes still out. But um, so all of this happened and God's moving. Um and I'm in the right direction, but I'm still lonely. Yeah, you know, and I'm seeing all my buddies, they're getting married and and finding, you know, and I'm like, what's wrong with me? You know, what's what's the deal? And uh so uh I'll never forget again. I'm in the prayer room at night, and this time I was in the ladies' prayer room. Um, and I was praying, and a guy named Isaac Surrey walks in because there was he had a prayer room key. And uh he's like, I just feel to tell you that uh God don't worry about it, God's gonna take care of it. You just keep going. I think he told me a story, and he told me a story of um, I don't think I know, he told me the story of Verbal Bean, how that you know, Verbal Bean was praying, and uh, you know, God said, you know, don't worry about it. And then I'm paraphrasing obviously, but then finally he got sick and he's like, you know, I need a wife. And then that's when he got his wife. So he said, just keep praying and keep studying, keep going, God will give you a wife. I'm like, okay, sure. Well, um I apparently didn't heed it, you know what I mean? Because I still wanted one, right? I wanted one, and I'm still all my buddies are having girlfriends and engaged, and uh and uh I'm like, man, what's my deal? Like, you know, let's go, you know. And uh so now I'm 21, I'm licensed and um to preach. To preach, yeah. And uh and I'm like, I I got this I'm together. Well, you know, what's the deal? So I s there was a a young lady in my church, and um you know, we started dating, whatever, and I and and um there was some uh uh things that you know were alarming or whatever, but uh my pride now I look back and I say it was my pride because I didn't want to get people to think I could fail and stuff like that. And um and so um I was preaching at PSR actually um that year, and uh I thought, you know, we're supposed to get married and that's what preachers are supposed to do, right?
SPEAKER_05:Right, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and so uh because of that we rushed the marriage and um you know I married You ignored the flags. Ignored the flags, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07:We all do that because we're lonely, right? Yes, we're lonely trying to fit somebody into that box, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And uh so um we I got married, and uh that was I married the wrong person. Yeah, yeah, that's what happened. Um so that happened, and then everything just slowed down. Like uh I wasn't preaching as much. Um God was still using me. Um I was a youth pastor in Gustine for a little while, and uh but I you know and then um I I just kinda uh then what so the I'm in my late twenties now and things that's when things really went downhill. Um the marriage was nobody would describe it as good. It was horrible actually. And um, but at the time I didn't feel I didn't believe uh in that I thought I felt like the Bible uh didn't uh said that you couldn't divorce. I'm stuttering because it's still a hard topic for people. Um I do recommend if you ever um I do recommend the book uh Marriage and Divorce by D Dr. Enstone Brewer. Um I discovered that in prison. Um and I I I I but I even talking to other people now, it's still a touchy subject with people.
SPEAKER_07:Because you're Christian.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:I know. I I have those wonderful Christians that come in for counseling, but they're married to a narcissist suffering abuse. And you know, but I will say, because I'm not gonna get into that right now, but but what I what I always tell them is, you know, the Bible says, husbands love your wives like Christ loved the church and died for her. Like marriage is not just about we can't get divorced. It's also about what marriage is supposed to look like through through love and through forgiveness and through two people working on a relationship, if it's meant to mirror our relationship with the Lord, right? And so it my opinion is it takes two people to be married, and ultimately, you know, I've been divorced more times than I like to say. And um I I have to just trust that God forgives that He 100% does. And and I I believe that my pastor has helped me a lot. Yeah, but you know, even if we make a mistake, there's still redemption and forgiveness and restoration. Yes, you know, because that's who God is, yes, in spite of whatever.
SPEAKER_01:Oh man, that's what the book when you um you talk about that uh Galatians, right? So it's funny how we um we're talking about isolation and and church hurt. There's a lot of church hurt, right? The book of Acts 15 is the time that Galatians is being written.
SPEAKER_07:Oh, that's good. Denied it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, there's a lot of people that misunderstand, they think that Thessalonians, first, second Thessalonians is for Paul's first writings. It's Galatians that is his first writing. And he's writing to former Greeks, former Romans, right? This is a Celtic society that was moved from France to Turkey. Okay. So these people were pagans through and through. They had they did not value women at all. They still don't.
unknown:No.
SPEAKER_01:So, right? So, yes, uh, there's some if you read some of the Roman, I can't even say some of the things that they said about their value of what they they would just trade them away, right? And so Paul is speaking to these former people, he says, Such were some of you, right? Right? So some of these people were horrendous people at one point that had gone through several women and divorces and uh horrible things. And he says, but God, right, you know, and and then it's they're redeemed. This so if God can redeem these pagans that we used to cut people's heads off and use them as mugs, right, you know, right, yeah, yeah, all things, yes, right.
SPEAKER_07:He redeems all things if we allow him to.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yeah, that's why Acts 15 was a fight. Because they're like, how can God save these people? They were mad. Read Acts 15. They they didn't want, they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. They're not they're not saved. And and Paul's like, no, no, no, no, you are saved. Relax one step at a time. Right. Yeah, and they just they came up with like three or three laws, right? You know, don't, you know, don't worship idolatry, don't fornicate, and um uh don't eat something that's strangled, right? That's been strangled. Like so they they started with basic laws just to get them, you know what I mean? Right. But that's that's what that's what the church is all about. It's uh all about redemption. And if God can save them, he can save me. And if God can save me, he can save anybody. Yeah, he can save anybody.
SPEAKER_07:So you stayed um because you were because of your our church culture, right? I think Christian culture in general is about not getting divorced, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07:Um and as a preacher, it would be even harder, right? Especially in the organization, because then that's your life, that's your purpose, that's your call, that's all the things.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yeah, yeah, that's that that image, exactly. Yes, that's it, everything. So um, yeah, so in the middle of all that, so she actually, you know, her story is her story. She she backslides. Um, and um, I'm still trying to go to church. I'm still trying to bring Haley, my my oldest daughter, to church. And um I'll never so I'm still struggling. So and then I f um it's it's been it's rocky, really hard, and it was a struggle every day. Um and then uh we were about to get divorced. We were at finally at a point where we're gonna get divorced, and um there was some reconciliation and uh she gets pregnant. And um, so this is another crazy point in my life. Um so I'm working as an underground locator in Yosemite and uh love Yosemite by the way. Um so she was losing the baby. She was losing Riley, who's now Riley. Um and I was working almost seven days a week, probably most l a lot of times seven days a week, just to pay the bills. And um she cried she called me on a Friday saying, Hey, I'm losing the baby, I'm going to the hospital. So she goes to the hospital uh or she was bleeding, and and at the hospital she calls me again, says uh there said the babies I lost the baby. Um they're gonna have me come in Monday. And um and the DNC. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I um come home from work, whatever, and then Saturday and Sunday go to work. And Sunday I call just to check in on her. And she uh I was working at a spot and there was uh I I knew where the cell tower was, so I go to the cell tower tower and I call her and she's uh crying, you know, it's uh she's in pain and all that. And you know, and and I'm really close to back I'm backsliding at this time now because uh it was like um you know, working, you're not going to church, there's no right, you know, method to encourage you.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I was still trying to get Haley involved, still um still my mom would take her to church, and and and my mom was babysitting her and stuff, so I would do her hair and it was you know, so Haley's my mom was amazing. My mom was amazing. So I go to uh the next part to work and I get on my knees and I begin to pray, and I say, God, if you will heal and My baby, I will serve you. And the Holy Ghost hit me so hard that I knew I knew that He answered me. I said, Uh oh. And so I took a picture of it. So I still to this day have a picture of the spot where God uh healed Riley. Wow. Yeah. So she goes to the the doctor the Monday and they're like, We don't know what happened. That baby's alive. You're gonna it's gonna be okay. Yeah, praise God. Yeah, super God.
SPEAKER_04:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:Um, so um, so that kind of got me, and I started really going back to church and again, you know.
SPEAKER_07:And so, real quick, your form of backsliding at this time of substance, right? Yeah, get being comforted by substance.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, yeah, yeah. And um, yeah. So uh I'm going to church, I'm living right. I'm trying to live right rather. It still is a struggle. Um, but I was still going, I was because I told God I would. And so um people can see, right? Like you could tell because I'm when I'm in, I'm all in, right? And when I'm not, when you can you can see me fading, you know. And uh I went to uh my dad was in charge of the ki junior camps uh in our section at the time. And so I'd go and Haley was going for with him, you know. Uh he was the camp director. And um, so I remember the couples. Um I was praying. Now my mom had cancer at that, started getting cancer at this time. Um I had cancer. Oh, I messed up. I got cancer and God saved me and healed me. How old were you? I was in my twenties. I should actually know this. Um because it happened before my mom. Uh I can't remember now. Um so Haley's twenty-two, so she it would be twenty years ago. So I was twenty-six. I was twenty-six.
SPEAKER_08:Wow, that's so young.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. And um there God, um I I they did the surgery and they said there was still more. And it was on oh wow, it's really close to this time. Um, it was right around Thanksgiving. Um they said you're gonna have to come back and we're gonna have to do radiation.
SPEAKER_07:Where was the cancer? What kind of cancer was it? It was testicular. Okay, yeah.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So um they had to we're gonna do radiation, and I'm like, oh, all right. Well, um I'm like, all right. Well, Brother Bishop Morgan again comes to church and I'm in the altar and he lays hands on me and he's and he goes, curse those dead cells. I curse these death cells, and he prayed for me, and God healed me of cancer. Like I didn't have to do that. Oh, I believe it. It was so crazy. Yeah, um Wow. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07:So that was a And I'm just gonna stop here because there are miracles of God healing cancer. Yeah. And um, we saw it blow through our church, and it's I'm not gonna say, um, but I I think that that is an area of faith that people struggle to believe God for. Yes. But man, I'm just gonna believe God for it because it's good to hear a testimony. We've heard those testimonies where God has healed cancer. Yeah. Um, and then there's other testimonies when that's that's their trip home, you know, to be with the Lord, which is where we all want to be. Yeah. But um, it's so good to hear the testimony of God healing them. Because I believe he does. I believe there's nothing too hard for him. Nothing. And I and you know, whatever wilderness season the church has been in, I think, I think the church has been in a wilderness season, but I think all that's deliberate by God's timing too, in the earth. Yes. Because he's got a purpose in the earth, yes, and he's got a purpose in the church, and he does carry us through, but there are definite times when he's moving too in supernatural, powerful ways, I think, which is what we're seeing now. Absolutely. I feel like we're seeing that now. And I, you know, I'm not God, I can't speak for him, but I feel like timing is God, God's about timing. Yes, and whatever's happening, you know. So, anyways, I feel like we're in this new season of time with the Lord um worldwide, you know, especially in the American church. And then again in our particular um church culture.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. He's immutable, right? If he's done it before, he's gonna do it again. Right, he still acts, he's still looking to show himself.
SPEAKER_07:Yes, yes, so okay, he heals you of cancer, yeah, and then you're he saves your child.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, so that's kind of that's kept me going, right? Right, and then my mom gets cancer, and she was the adhesive, she held us all together. She was amazing. Like I was telling you, she would I'd go to sleep and she would play the piano, like you know, all these old hymns and stuff like that. Um, you ever heard of Lost Sheep? Um, that one Lost Sheep, she would sing that one. I'm like, oh, I love that song still. But I don't even know if yeah, anyways, because distracted. But anyway, so um, yes. And uh so she got it, and brother, I remember the reason why I was bringing this camp one camp up, um, because brother Copel was praying for me, and I really felt like I pushed through and was so that kind of sustained me longer, you know. Yeah, um, the body is important. I'm telling you, you gotta stay connected to the body because we are important. The blood has gotta flow. It's gotta flow. Right.
SPEAKER_07:And uh so wait, I want to stop there because that's there's more to that. That's so powerful. I've never thought about the body of Christ in the way you just described it as our physical body, the blood is life. Yes, life is in the blood, yes, and so being connected to the body of Christ, life is in the body because the blood is flowing. That's so powerful. I'm gonna have to unpack that later.
SPEAKER_06:Yes.
SPEAKER_07:Um, because we hear that argument now all the time, right? I can watch church online, I don't need to go. We know, we know what we get when we go, right? Yes, yes. Um, but I I hear that from people a lot. I don't need to go, I can just be at home. But this is a brand new vein that I I need to unpack and look at. Yeah, because there is something we feel differently being at church. I know I can worship at home I did yesterday because my dad is sick and um it's okay, he's okay today. But um, but you know, we worship at home if we can't be in church and we feel the presence of God there, but there is something so different than being in service. Yes, but I love what you said because the blood is flowing through the body, it's different. And we are the body is a congregation.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_07:I love that, Michael. That's good. Thank you for that little nugget. It's God so go on. So camp. So yeah, you were saying you were getting something different there.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and and and I'll never forget uh he I could there's another spot where I could tell you right where I was sitting, where he was praying for me. And I mean, it was a long prayer.
SPEAKER_07:God really had you focus for those moments of memory so that you can point. That's why I love journaling so much. But but but he really all through your life had you remember when it happened, because you can't argue with yourself when you when you know that you know you can't deny unless you willfully choose to believe a lie. Exactly. And we some people do do that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07:But when you when you love the Lord, you know, we can't believe that lie. Good. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely not.
SPEAKER_07:Keep going. I'm having light bulb moments as you're talking.
SPEAKER_01:This is where it's at, right? The blood's flowing, right? Yeah, yeah. So um, in the middle of all this, and you know, that there's a lot that I'm really not saying because there's people that are around and they they know, yeah, you know, so I I'm not trying to hurt anybody. Sure. But there was a lot bad, a lot of bad going on, and a lot of hurt, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of hurt. And I'm still trying to make it, still trying to push. Um, but those moments carried me further. Yeah, they did. And um in the end, uh I had I bought a house, I had a job. Um yeah, trying to figure out basically I had this moment finally of just I was I was working Sundays again, I wasn't going back to Sunday. Were you divorced at this time? I wasn't, and it but the the marriage was was done. Yeah. The marriage was for sure done. And um, but I was still trying to hold on, she was trying to make everything work with the Lord. With yeah, in spite of the marriage going on. Yeah. And what literally took place was I stopped I got sick and tired of because I've thought over this so much, right? Yeah, but um I got this job with Free Delay, and I was just I I had to start working on Sundays because I needed the money because I had this house that I was I finally it took me eight years to get this house, finally get this house, and um I had which feels like success, right?
SPEAKER_07:It feels like a blessing, it is a blessing, yeah. So you don't wanna negate that, right?
SPEAKER_01:Right, right. I felt like I still feel like it was a miracle that I got it, right? But um, there was better ways of handling it. Um so uh that's when everything really started going. That was the I was done done. Um did you make a willful, conscious decision to be done, done, done? No. Um it's it what happened was again, I stopped going to church because I was working. I was still trying. I was really trying. And then um it got to um the home life was just so so horrible. And then my parents moved to Viselia. They took the church in Visalia. That that there's a lot there. I'm probably moving what they would call anachronistically. I'm not exactly chronological. That's okay, but um so but my so my parents are there, she's definitely dying of cancer. And um and I the what's it's not a marriage. Um now because I'm isolated, and most of my friends are now backslid. So the people that are my that I hang out with are backslidden. So I you know that's where it's at, right? So um I'm with them, and they're the ones that are taking me in. They're the ones that you feel they are, they're they're still my friends. They're I love them dearly, and they're they're still my friends. Well, we're calling those backsliders home. Amen. Amen. So they um they took me in, and and that's when things just kind of just because I just like, and then I'll never forget. Finally, I'm like, you know, I'm and then um I started losing my house, and so I I'm done. Like, I was just like, I'm you know, I had been promised. You hear I pr rem remember messages I'd uh of of financial blessings and stuff like that, and I'd given my whole life, and I still hadn't, I was still struggling, still scratching. And I was like, man, what's the deal? Why am I still scratching? Why am I I'm supposed to be blessed? And so um I was like, you know what? I can I know I can do it my way, so I'm gonna do it my way. And that's when I backslid. Uh, but it wasn't consciously, it was just it was and then uh because I would Haley still remembers I'd get my guitar out and I would sing songs with her, she'd get her little animals and we'd have church. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07:And I'm you know So it wasn't a walking away from God, but it was a um there was a loss of faith somewhere, right? That God was gonna show up or deliver or yeah, turn the situation around. And I can't imagine what losing your mom. I mean, were you guys praying for a miracle? I I would imagine right? That's what we do. We would expect God to move in that way.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yeah. And she was an angel, like um uh I never heard her lie, never heard her cuss, you know. Uh in fact, the moments that she was would be angry, like we would they're comical because right, because it's not out of character, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but um yeah, uh, and there was a she I would call her every day. I would talk to her every day. And there's some promises that God told her that I'm still holding on to. Um, she had a dream that uh my grandfather he was backslidden, he would come back to God. And I never, never knew him to be in church. And um then my my ex-wife, he she had a dream that she would get in church, and she actually did get back in church when I was in prison. Um she's not uh whatever you know again, that's not yeah, but um so her those promises, and she had one more promise of me being um successful and happy at one point. This is before I started robbing banks and all that. Michael, you robbed a bank. Banks.
SPEAKER_07:My word, I think you left that out in the questionnaire. But you know what? Um what wants to come out of my mouth is how exciting is that. But but it but not not because I just it's just amazing God's faithfulness to his children. So good, you know. Um, so you took matters into your own hands to get rich.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yes, yes.
SPEAKER_07:I'm sorry about your mom. Yeah, I'm sorry about your mom. I I I have both my parents still, and um I don't know what that's gonna be like, but but that was a vulnerable age and a vulnerable time for you going through the your marriage and all the disappointment, I'm sure, that you're facing. Yeah, in addition to losing your rock and yeah, someone so loving.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, she was she would she she got me. Yeah. You know, out of all the people, she would she understood me.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And uh, you know, when you're seen by somebody. Well, she's your mom.
SPEAKER_07:Yes, when you're seen by somebody, it it's everything.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And uh, I was tired. I was worn out. Yeah, and I knew that I I knew I could rob banks.
SPEAKER_07:Why did you know that? Like, who who thinks of that?
SPEAKER_01:So the thing is, um, I grew up not watching TV. Um, so I read a lot of books. I lived uh it helped. I found out um they said um it doesn't matter. Um, but reading books would help me.
SPEAKER_07:It does matter. What did they say?
SPEAKER_01:Uh well apparently some psychologists thought I was I might have been bipolar, might be bipolar.
SPEAKER_07:Um but and so reading books would help you focus.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. And I definitely have ADHD, but these are all gifts, these are gifts.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, I believe I believe that, and I because we'll talk about the bipolar stuff later.
SPEAKER_01:But yeah, it was definitely their gifts. And um, so yeah, because in my manic, I I have to pray, and then in my depression I have to pray. I la left the song. I'm so crazy, glad that we brought this up. When I got married, I was she wouldn't like me going to the church to pray all night. But those are moments would hold me, and those were the moments that helped me.
SPEAKER_07:Because you learn to cope, yeah. Because I think substance is the way people cope when they don't have a different way to cope, right? Because a lot of people with bipolar um and depression will say that the drugs kind of level them out. And to be fair, it does, it's just the wrong way, and also killing you at the same time, right? Exactly. Yeah. But isn't that like the devil? He he uh there's always this little silver lining that looks like it's a silver lining, but it it's a death sentence.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's the fruit, right? It looks it's desirable to the eye, right? And and it's great, but it's killing you at the same time.
SPEAKER_07:Um was your drug of choice meth?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, because I think crank has the opposite effect of ADHD, and it's it does bring you down when you're manic, it kind of calms. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yep, absolutely. So uh yeah, so that so because you take that away, and that's that so I definitely I mean, there's a lot of layers because you know, I should have married the right woman person. I feel like the right person would have um been awesome with me going, right? Would would have been supportive of me praying.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Um, there probably should have been communication, there would have been communication, I think. I don't know, I wasn't there. I mean, it didn't happen, it didn't happen, so right. I can only postulate, but um but also impatience waiting on God. Impatience.
SPEAKER_07:Yes, yeah, Jason Sisko. Do you ever listen to him?
SPEAKER_01:I I had I heard him preach one time and I loved it.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, well, he has prayer nation, and um anyways, I remember him from Bible College, he preached at our church, and it it was right, it was a great message, but I still have my notes on that from 1996. 96? Yeah, I think that's the message I heard. I'm not kidding. He was at CLC. No, he was at our church, he came to Lighthouse, but okay. Um, but I say that because he tells the story. I think I think if memory serves, he went all the way through Bible college um and felt very similar, like he didn't fit, like he didn't belong. Yeah, he was single, and I I want to say I don't know if he found someone his senior year or after graduating, but God spoke to him through all of that about waiting and explained to him the loneliness he felt and gave him understanding in those areas and he's talked about it. Yeah. Um, anyways, I've I've gleaned a lot from him over the years, and so I'm definitely gonna Yeah, because I feel like and look at his ministry today, that's prophetic, and and he and he very much I think he still walks a lonely road, but God has given him a spouse to kind of be the person, you know. Yeah, um, but anyways, go on. So um, yeah, all the choices, but you know, no matter what, God knew it all was gonna happen, and uh he's got you. And it's gonna be exciting to see what unfolds for you. Yes, but I want to hear about the drama of being a bank robber.
SPEAKER_01:That's crazy. So, yeah, so I'll never forget. Um that never scared you. Um, no, I I I knew I knew that I could plan it out. Um, like I said, I well, I read books, right? So um um some of my heroes was like Black Bart. Um are these criminals? Yeah, okay. And they're real, right? You know, I would read their stories, right? Right. Um, you know, Jesse James, you know, who wouldn't who wouldn't like him, you know. But uh Doc Holiday actually wasn't an outlaw, but he would ride the outlaw trail. Um you know, these kind of things. Um, so anyway, so the you know, they were the people that I liked, you know, read their books and thought they were really cool. A lot of Louie Lamore, but what kid didn't read Louie Lamore in the 90s? Um that was in the UPC. Um anyways, uh so I read all these books and I was like, well, I know I know I could do this.
SPEAKER_08:And um so um Black Barton That is a big level of confidence.
SPEAKER_07:But I would guess there was probably already can I say I don't want to say arrogance, but there do you feel like there was because that's a big stretch from a rational mind to say, oh, I read this book about how they did it in the 1800s and I'm gonna go rob a bank.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:I mean, have you thought about that? I'm just trying to get into what's happening in your brain to think that you could have gotten away with it. So yeah and you probably did for a while, I guess, if you did multiple.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I um yes. So they uh they they got me for four hostile takeovers. Um but um so that's interesting that you did that because I've I've never thought of myself as an intelligent person. Um I don't think I did. Um but sometimes it would be perceived by people that way.
SPEAKER_07:And um, but I always thought that I was kind of, you know, you're probably much smarter than you gave yourself credit for.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I appreciate that. I don't know. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:I think Well, I can tell by the way your brain I I could tell by the things you said, how your brain, you know, you're you're paying attention to a lot of details, a lot of things. You're picking it from the environment, you're reading people, you're you're taking it. I mean, I think not every kid is a reader, you know, to be able to read books. There's so much great information. I'm just summarizing a little bit, but probably more, it's just so natural for you because that's how you were, that's how you're wired. You probably didn't step back objectively and look at you know how it all fits together and what God's given you, actually. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:In terms of intelligence and huh, well, I I think you I thank you. I don't know what that thinks, but yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07:And I'm not trying to be, you know, blow smoke either. I'm just saying I I always look at I like to understand the process. I like to understand what's happening with our emotions and our thoughts that's leading us to these steps. Like at what point does faith break down? At what point do we say, God, I love you and I want to live for you, but I'm in need right now, right this moment. I don't see you coming through.
SPEAKER_06:Yes.
SPEAKER_07:You know, to where we don't have a way to understand that, you know. So I'm just hearing you talk and trying to see what your process was and all that.
SPEAKER_01:That's great. I love that because you just triggered me in a couple areas, um, in a good way. Not because you brought back exactly the scenarios, right? Um, so the scenario with my ex-wife, I had um, there was always a process. I had done two uh uh back to back two-year not dating, you know. And so I expected because I did these things that God would come through. Yeah, I did my part.
SPEAKER_07:We did all, we checked all the boxes.
SPEAKER_01:I did what I was asked for. Okay, so here what are we doing here now? Like, let's, you know, and then I would hear all these preachings about if you give, it'll be given back to you, you know.
SPEAKER_08:Pressed down, shaking together, little man given to your bosom, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I'm like, hey, I I've done my part. Well, you know, where you at? Let's let's go, you know. I and I'm um people uh I've found us out later that ADHD also makes you very black and white.
SPEAKER_07:Where um I don't but I think our religion, no offense to our religion, but I think we were taught black and white. It's either this or it's this. Yes. And I don't think that's any fault of anything. I think it's just constructs that constructs, you know, because it we're either sinning or we're living for God, right? And even the Bible says, you know, you're either serving the enemy or you're serving God. You can't serve. There's no neutral ground. Right. So it is, it's it's very difficult to understand that God is a God of process because we set up our expectations as either or. Yes, exactly. And he is not an either-or, he's not an either-or God. He's trying to always reveal himself to us in in the fruit of the spirit, which is patience is one.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. If you look at so again, we bring back what he's done, right? Oh, you could just go to the first chapter of the book of Genesis, right? Right. You see that it's layer upon layer, it's one day added to the next. Right. Um, the rakia is the uh firmament is what we translate firmament, right? But that holds everything in so that everything he creates later can set in its place.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know what I mean? So um it's always he's always been a god of layer upon layer. Right. Um, the uh Abraham, when you look at his story, it's 10 success, well, ten being uh, you know, I don't know.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, I know. Yeah, we won't get into all that right now.
SPEAKER_01:But bottom line is he let he adds upon adds upon adds. Right. And then the the wilderness, he adds upon adds upon adds.
SPEAKER_07:David, he added line upon line, precept upon precept, here, a little, there, a little.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yeah. That's what he does, right?
SPEAKER_07:And but when we're kids, I mean it takes, I think it just it just takes God to reveal those things, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:Um I mean, yeah. We just have to learn that in our walk with God. Yes, you know, but we don't know that necessarily at the time. We're just needing God to show up. And so when he doesn't, we don't have a way to understand that. Yeah. I and the thing But thankfully he knows our heart.
SPEAKER_01:He does, and and that's the that's funny you said that because I loved God my whole life. So did I through all that? Yeah, I loved him, and it hurt that I wasn't, you know, right. And I almost I felt hurt by him, right? Right. And people don't you know wanna say that.
SPEAKER_07:Disappointment, yeah. Because, right, because it's all we knew of him, like he had to teach us the rest.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, obviously, this is your word, right? You told me this, I believe this. So, what's going on, you know?
SPEAKER_07:All those seeds, though, Michael, are still gonna give a harvest. They've just been dormant.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, God has been answering prayers from me being a kid even now. Yeah, he's doing it. He doesn't not prayer no one prayer doesn't go by.
SPEAKER_08:Right. I believe that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and uh, but yeah, he's a prayer answering God, he's a good God. And um, so I I was tired of being tired. And uh, so I um but the answer is I I did I I I guess that does take arrogance, right? And pride. Um both of them were arrogance and pride with marrying my ex because I I chose her as the I recognize it because I had it too, right?
SPEAKER_07:Yeah. I mean, yeah. So I I I don't think we knew that. We don't do that on purpose. It's just a byproduct probably of our humanity.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. That's not submitted, but yes, yes. Because that's what it's uh all about. It's uh it's a it's the it's a humble humble yourself under the mighty hand of God and he will exalt you. Right. Um that goes back to again to Genesis.
SPEAKER_07:Well, and probably you were trying to fulfill your calling, right? Yes. I got I got a word in 1995, and I was trying to help God for you know 30 something years, yeah, fulfill his word to me. You know, I was trying to help me. Yeah, but it just led to mistake after mistake. And so um, anyways, he yeah, I I can I know I say that because uh you believed his word to you. Yes, and so when it doesn't line up, it it can be very confusing.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, exactly. Yeah, you're right. Um, so that's this so yeah, here I was. Um my I was losing my house, I lost my job, I was losing my job, losing my my marriage.
SPEAKER_07:Is that because of drugs?
SPEAKER_01:Or or just did you just quit on life? I I feel like um so my job is because I I you know my my um ADHD and the bipolar kind of makes it difficult if you don't manage it properly.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And um I I I there was some mistreatment there too, but I think because this is you know, full disclosure, it's nothing I have nothing against anybody. Um but if in the right situation I've been fine. It would have been okay. But because uh I it's my fault really, um uh my ADHD makes it difficult for to do um the this one part of the route. Um but the the box routes I was great, no problem. Um I overcame, I learned figured it out, you know, and I was really proud of that. And then um I was put on another route and and I I turned in something wrong or whatever. And um, anyways, that that made me lose my job. Okay, made me feel less uh man too.
SPEAKER_08:Of course, you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um there so uh I was and I was struggling, I was trying, I really was, and then uh so that and then I wanted to start my own business, and that was not going through. So I was like, you know what? I I know I can rob banks because I, you know, I've done it.
SPEAKER_07:Had you been fantasizing about that?
SPEAKER_01:I've been thinking about it. I wouldn't I wouldn't use the adjective fantasy because um I didn't really want to, but I definitely put myself in a situation if I had to, this is what I would do.
SPEAKER_06:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, maybe maybe the adjective fantasy would be where it would work.
SPEAKER_07:I I just think in my mind I was Yeah, fantasy leads to a different motive than what survival does. Yeah, so I understand what you're saying.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yes, okay.
SPEAKER_07:And I wonder where that thought came from in the first place. Like, where did that seed get planted about as a teenager?
SPEAKER_01:I think. Because as a teenager, I I got these outlaws. I I didn't realize at the time why I was connecting, uh, but they have the sim. Emotions that I was struggling with. Some of these guys were had did have so you were relating to them.
SPEAKER_07:Yes. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. I you know.
SPEAKER_07:Man, I gotta I need to write that down. Keep going. I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so you know, we we call it mental health. I don't like calling it mental health. These are blessings, these are blocks that God's given us. But whatever. And uh but you could see that I could subconsciously read through the lines that these guys we were we were the same people. Right. You know, and a black Bart for sure. Um his story was out of San Francisco. Um he actually he successfully robbed stagecoaches for Wells Fargo against Wells. At the end he got caught, and then when he got out, they were being robbed again. And so they said, Hey, look, we know it's you, but we'll we'll pay you uh hey retirement to stop robbing us. And he actually started working for them and like cap help capture Wow Yeah, it's a pretty crazy story. But he definitely had the same loneliness and stuff like that, you know. Um his wife and kids were in another state, I don't remember where, but he was sending them.
SPEAKER_07:So you found a point of relation, yeah, and you saw yourself in them.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:So that gave you some identity.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_07:Because if it's not gonna be the preacher identity, which is quickly going down the drain with the loss of your marriage, yes, then you needed a new identity.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, absolutely, yes, because now I have something to fit in. Right. Yeah, my preaching as a preacher, I I definitely felt I knew I was in my purpose, and that was my calling, and that was what I, you know. Yeah, absolutely. That was my ditty thing. Well, yeah, I liked how you unpacked that. That was really cool.
SPEAKER_07:Identity is such a it I I think that that's at the core of what's happening from in most areas, but yeah, um, it's been so associated with you know the LGBTQ world, but it's still like every little kid is struggling with identity, and tons of grown adults are struggling.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, right?
SPEAKER_07:So if we answered the identity issue, yeah, it would alleviate, I think, a lot of the rejection and abandonment and loneliness. I mean, it does God's gonna fix the deepest wounds and all of that.
SPEAKER_01:But yes, he does too.
SPEAKER_07:Wow, that is so interesting.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:So what so one day you just so were you using substance at this time as well? Or were you just focused on finding a way to I was heavily drinking, yeah, big time.
SPEAKER_01:Um, and then he I didn't even realize how bad it was till I heard my oldest daughter talking about it. Um, but I it was oh I'll tell you a story. I mean, it may not be funny, but um my neighbor, uh, he lost his job. So uh he he was uh um he from Mexico, so he didn't speak English. And um, but we cut we communicated and I found out what was wrong with him. So I was like, hey, well, I started having him work on my house and the property and all that. Well, I'm definitely backsliding at the time and robbing banks already. So I um take him to Home Depot, we get our stuff, and I stopped. I get him, hit a case of beer, and I bought me a case of beer that he liked. Um, and so anyways, we were doing this every day. He's like, No more, no mass no mas. I'm like, why? It was my wife, she know how though. Like, what? She's very angry at me every day. I come home drunk. I didn't even know. I was like, really? I didn't realize it how bad it was, you know. Right, right. Um, but yeah, so I was definitely, it got to a point I was hiding my alcohol at my neighbor's house and things like that. Um, because I was trying, I don't know. I was just trying to escape, you know. Yeah, so um, but yeah, so I'll never forget uh I was losing the house. I needed uh to take care of it. And uh so I was like, okay. Um I I planned it out. I kind of read other bank robbers, you know, seen looked in the news and stuff like that, how they did it, how the people got away, and I recognized the way of doing it. So um I was like, all right, I I knew this one bank pretty well, and um so I planned it out and uh uh timed it. I re went through the kind of scenario in my head and actually did the whole process, practiced it, and uh did a dry run. And um it's like okay.
SPEAKER_07:And uh I'm looking at his dad who's sitting here wondering what he's thinking about all this.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so uh well, yeah. So uh I'll never forget, uh I had a well, I I had a bicycle because nobody knows people on a bike. Um I parked the vehicle in a uh residential area and uh drove the bicycle from the vehicle uh through the park and then to the the bank. And uh this was my first one. And um I timed it out right, uh, tried to anyways, and um went in and it's like good morning, and they're like, Good morning. And I wore disguise because if you wear a mask, it's all immediately, you know, they got noticed. Yeah, yeah. This one had an armed bank guard outside, too, by the way. And uh so I uh the there was a lady on the phone, I hung up her phone and said, Okay, this is a bank robbery. And were you armed? I was, yeah. And so I pulled out the gun, and then they, you know, and I immediately felt bad when they got quiet and raised their hands. I always felt, oh man, this is awful, you know. So they were walking, I had told them where to go, and the the manager, um, I'll never forget, she she was um, she opened the safe, and I just was feeling horrible already.
SPEAKER_07:And um that sounds so contrary to what someone would feel, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I was just like, oh man, this is not cool. And um, then she dropped the stacks of money and uh she started she started crying. She was like, I'm so sorry. I'm like, whoa, it's okay. I go, I'm sorry. Just stand in the corner. I'm sorry that I hope you know you're gonna be okay. And I'm so sorry for for this. And I put the money in the and I told her, I hope you have a better day. And I left. Well, I walk out. Um, there was the arm guard was right there. I had the money in the backpack and the guns were in my waist uh under the hoodie. And uh I was like, Good morning. He's like, good morning. And I walked off, got on the bike and rode off. Uh uh, but yeah, God protected me. I had just robbed an arm guard's bank and he didn't even know it. But uh yeah, so I get on the bike, ride it, put it in the um, got in the vehicle and took off. But I tied I did do the and that was a I remember driving and the cops were coming this way, uh, going to the bank that I just robbed. And uh I remember thinking, oh, you know, man, I don't like this, but I could do it, you know?
SPEAKER_07:I would think though, what an ego boost. I I know it's the total wrong way, but no, yeah, but that's what happens, right? So what went through your mind and and what did you feel? I would imagine you'd be elated. I was. Were you scared? Were you were I mean, did you all of that? Yeah. I'll never forget. How long before you robbed your second one after the first one? Uh it was about six months.
SPEAKER_01:Um incidentally, by accident, I um maybe not by my accident. Uh it was accident on my part, maybe not maybe there was some more previdential areas behind this, but um, it's it was March 27th, was the day I robbed that bank. The reason why I know that is because the last bank I robbed was March 27th the next year. The very same day. And it happens to be uh he's like a son to me, he's my my roommate. Uh his it's his birthday. So it's kind of a crazy yeah, connections, yeah, synchronicity there. But um, and Haley's birthday, my daughter's, uh, is the 31st of so not March, May, May, excuse me, May 27th. Um, incidentally, so uh on that you're right. I did feel like, wow, I I can actually do this. Like, wow, I I'm actually okay. And then the thing is you can't talk about it, you can't tell nobody about it. Right. You can't, you know, I'd look in the newspaper to see, oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_07:And I would think it'd be hard to quit when you get away with something.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was able to pay my bills. I felt good about that too. And it was felt it was nice to finally make money for once in my life. And I'm not sure. Make money. Right.
SPEAKER_07:It's good to have money, maybe.
SPEAKER_01:This book. Yes. It's good to have money, not make money. Um, I let me clarify that. Little faux pod there. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It felt good to have money.
SPEAKER_07:So what how did so you were still drinking during all this? Yeah. So how how long did that go on before you got caught? And how did you get caught?
SPEAKER_01:Um, it took another year. I I um so and I got I was told on. So it it would happen, I needed the money, I'd pay the I'd finally have to go get it and rob another bank and then uh I would live off of that money, and then um then wait until I get I could see that the stacks were getting low again.
SPEAKER_07:And why didn't you think about robbing a convenience store or someplace like that with less risk, not a federal crime? Uh well, I think maybe that oh, because they could get the money back.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, the banks were getting their money back.
SPEAKER_07:Well, you are a considerate bank robber.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I it's crazy. I couldn't rob from a normal person, but I felt like if I robbed from a bank, at least they're getting their money back.
SPEAKER_07:It wasn't a complete loss.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:And was uh this is probably TMI, but I'm just curious sidebar from the backslider piece. But um, was it always the same amount, similar amount? I don't know if banks have money set aside in case they get robbed.
SPEAKER_01:That yeah, yeah, that's that they they'd have a bag. Uh it was a bag a lot of times. Um, and then uh but the average is about 50 grand, like usually because I'm just going to the vault. I'm not hitting the tailors. I just wanted to grab one quick because I was in and out with one minute. This was what was my goal. And um, I if I could, I would love it, ATM if I'm being honest. Um, I'm being honest. I'd rather hit the ATM because that's 200,000 in a case. But you really did your homework, yeah. Yeah, I did. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Um, yeah, that's the thing. And so that's what I helped. I mean, it didn't help. It was like what it made me realize that I actually can succeed. I can be successful, even though it was a wrong success. Um, but it was something that I planned out and that I felt like you had control of it. I felt out of control, yeah, yeah. Uh something was said yesterday in church that it hit me about the deep being uh Ezekiel's hope in uh 37. Um, how that the water was oozing from the temple. That when people were standing in the shallow, their feet are still on the ground, they're still in control. I didn't have to think about that. That's good. The deep, you're not in the door. In control.
SPEAKER_07:No, you're not. Yeah. Bethel sings a song that was my song for many years about um being in the deep. I forget the name of it, but it's a beautiful yeah. It's about complete surrender. Surrender. Yeah. Yeah. To God. That's what it's about. Yeah. Because your head's just barely above water, but that deep calleth unto deep.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. That's where it's in.
SPEAKER_07:And it and yeah, and you'll never be satisfied with less.
SPEAKER_02:No.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah. No. So how did you get caught and what it's my fourth one?
SPEAKER_01:Um, this one in particular, I I broke my rules on purpose. I had rules that I set that said, you know, this is what I'm gonna do, this and that. And uh so this one I I was done. I I after talking about it and thinking about it, I think I was ready to go. I think I was um like subconsciously. Yeah. Yeah, like I was done. I was done hiding because I didn't I had to hide it. I was lying where the money was coming from. Um I mean, they're finding out bags of money, you know, like where's this at? You know, where did you do? You know, so it's kind of hard to explain that. Um so I was really and I was done with my life. And so I subscribe.
SPEAKER_07:What do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_01:I think I think I was done. I knew that I was gonna get caught eventually. And I thought for sure I was going for life because I knew the rules. And uh And you weren't bothered by that. No, I mean, you know, it's it's it was not cool, right? Um, but I had a plan first. I was gonna go to, well, now we're talking, um, I was gonna go to Mexico, from Mexico to Morocco, because Morocco is a um non-extraditable country. But the problem is I would never be able to contact my kids again because even though America won't extradite, they'll pay contractors to kidnap you.
SPEAKER_07:And so um Wow, I am shocked at the research you did. You were so you thought you would get caught, but then you'd skip out on bail. Yeah, pay bail, and then you would just leave the country.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. But I can't do that.
SPEAKER_07:Okay, can I just say it's a little scary how premeditable that was?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:This is a Pentecostal preacher right here, premeditating is wow. But I mean, yeah, that that's so much so much talk about with that. Yeah. But I I'm saying that in um I don't want to say a good way, but in a good way in that, you know, you definitely were equipped, you definitely are equipped. That only comes from God. I think that's what I'm saying. You know, then the enemy just tries to hijack what God gives us. But you know, I hope you never let him lie to you again that you're not smart or you're not worthy or you're not able, because clearly that's a lie.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you, Samat. Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:I mean, because that that's some very purposeful, intentional, yeah, dedicated, yeah, disciplined uh thing you had going on there.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. You know. Yeah. Uh yeah, it's crazy. You're it's it's you're saying this stuff, and it's actually you're hitting home because I I hadn't some I I had some some work done with psychologists in prison, and they would they've they touched on it, but seeing it from a Holy Ghost filled point of view, uh that's what the enemy will hijack what you have and turn it for evil. Right. You know, I didn't yeah, yeah. I didn't yeah.
SPEAKER_07:And I'm just gonna say this too. We have to be very careful what we believe about our physical health and our mental health. Because once a belief gets grounded, yeah, it's we we come into agreement often with the enemy about things that are never meant to be true for our lives. And so I I am a therapist, yeah. Um, but I will say that uh uh probably all mental health conditions are spiritual in nature, and I'm in the process of proving, at least doing research on that right now. But um because I, you know, we know how powerful the belief system is, you know. So don't be don't get too comfortable with a bipolar diagnosis because uh God doesn't make mistakes when he makes us. He doesn't make us with with flaws, he doesn't make all that stuff is given to us, and even the devil used physical health to attack Job. Yes, and so we know that the devil can attack us physically, yes, but that's a that's a demonic attack, and God God is perfect, God he makes us perfect. So so, anyways, don't get too comfortable with that, but I know that in the short term there is a need to understand and to make sense because uh it doesn't make sense, and and I would say too, in an unredemptive process, yeah, that yeah, it is probably bipolar, yeah. But um, our ignorance to all of that, and I mean that in a good way, also prevents us from allowing God to redeem it and to completely heal it.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yes, you know, amen. 100%, amen. Absolutely sorry, I didn't mean to No, it it and when you brought that up, it ran through my mind that uh because these thoughts, right, they hit you at a young age. Right. That's why I was talking to you. I don't like all these, you know, some of the things about teaching teachers, he'll he attacks you when you're a kid.
SPEAKER_07:Yes, he does.
SPEAKER_01:Just like he he attacks you at the beginning of your ministry, right? Yes, Jesus in the wilderness, right? You know, um Adam and Eve in the garden, you know.
SPEAKER_07:Because all that, what you just said, Jesus and it's all about identity. Yeah, and it's so hard for us to embrace the fact that we might be valuable, yes, and that God really could be for us because you know, because the lies of the enemy. But you're right, it it starts with kids, and I can see um, and this keeps coming up. I this is the research I'm doing about intrusive thoughts because intrusive thoughts are never just isolated, there is always uh other spiritual element, and it begins in childhood. Yes, when kids start having nightmares, when they start feeling like there's something in the room at night, when they feel that you it is very real, and so that's what I was talking about the seed getting planted. It gets planted, yeah, and so it does grow and bears fruit over time unless we unpluck it. Yes, and um, anyways, that's my soapbox. I'm gonna be quiet.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, you're giving me this amazing.
SPEAKER_07:I love that you just said that because that confirms so much of what I have been seeing in my work with kids. Yes, and what I believe to be true is is the the lies that just you know, or the little thought, oh, because you know, they did a study once um in a big old conference, and and the speaker said, How many here has ever thought about running your car off the overpass? And almost the whole room of thousands of people raise their hands. No way, it's an intrusive thought. Yes, and I I have people all the time, teenagers, kiddos, you know, they just start driving, and the this is the thought. I wonder what would happen if and that seed has already been planted. So, anyways, it sounds like that's what happened to you. And you know, we don't realize today I'm grateful.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:I did have TV in my home growing up, but we went through periods of time when they didn't, and when they did, and when they didn't, when they did. And now I look, I look back and I think, gosh, we really there was so much truth about the standards that was set out back then. We couldn't go to movies, couldn't watch TV.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:And man, if I was I have grandkids now, but if I was raising a kid, I wouldn't want them to watch TV, I wouldn't want them to go to movies. Yeah, I wouldn't, I would want to shelter and protect them from all of that because all of it is an introduction. It's just something that they, you know, maybe they notice it, maybe they don't, but it they're all seeds, in my opinion. That could potentially grow if we don't catch it.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, there's a massive amount of suicide being it uh in our kids now.
SPEAKER_07:Oh, massive, massive.
SPEAKER_01:And that's coming from the media, it's it's for sure.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, so anyone out there, get ready or TV.
SPEAKER_01:The UPC had it right the first time. Just don't read it, read uh black part.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, yeah, no names of books. No, but it it is so true. And you know, when kids are imaginative and when they're creative and they they think, and you know, um, anyways, it's so powerful. But the fact that you said that is so interesting to me. Yeah. Okay, so you get arrested. I guess you didn't get to go on the run. What happened?
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so um, well, here's what happened. Um, it was the last bank. I um broke all my rules, and um I uh I go into the bank and it's I definitely it was it was a fiasco, right? Um there was too many people in there. I usually would would hit it on the Thursday at 10 30 in the morning because Thursdays is less people um and it's before the it's right after the uh the morning rush and it's right before the lunch rush. So that means it's less right overall. Overall. And you don't I learned this from Black Bart.
SPEAKER_07:You don't want to give anyone out their ideas.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you don't want citizens involved, right? You just want the the You want the money. Yeah, that's all I wanted was the money. Yeah. Well, anyways, there was an old lady in there, elderly lady, I shouldn't say old, I wasn't being disrespectful. Um, but she I was telling everybody on the ground, and uh and she started to go down. I was like, whoa, you're okay, ma'am. You see, you can sit down if you want. And I went and I got in her chair. And and I was like, man, this is gonna take already things were just going out of control. There's too many people. And uh so I said, you know what, just give me the money right there, and I and uh I left. Well, there's again way too many people. So I leave and there and I took too much time. And uh the cops were the it's called the dragnet, they were already um so but because I the way I was dressed, I didn't look like a bank robber and I was riding a bike. I beat that dragnet. I I looked, I was yeah, it wasn't very far away from the cop at all. I talked to him, jumped in the truck and drove off. Left the bike there. Um but they were looking, and I can I remember I was at a red light and I waited, and it's hard, your heart's beating. Yeah, and I'm like, Man, I wanted to run this red light, but I said, Nope, stay right here, stay right here. And all the cops passed me. And then I just drove on, and then driving home, I that street, I went on it a while back, and I all those memories came back on me. I was just like, uh, this is not cool. So, anyway, so um I get home and a friend of mine uh called me and said, Hey, it looks like um they're looking for you. So I um How'd that how'd they know?
SPEAKER_07:How did your friend know that they were looking for you?
SPEAKER_01:They put me on multi uh Facebook or media or something.
SPEAKER_07:So they knew who you were.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and because I wasn't wearing a mask, I was wearing a disguise. Okay. So but because they discovered your identity. And if I would have done it, if I would have followed my rules, I wouldn't I would well, I probably would have been killed definitely at some point. Um, but because I was in our hometown, you know, you're not supposed to dirty your own backyard, right? But I was in my own hometown, people knew who I was, and so they called in the hotline and said, Yeah, I know who he is, you know. And uh so I could have left even then, but uh all this ran through my mind. Uh so you know what if I take off, I'll never be able to I Riley was two years old, Haley was nine, uh I'll never be able to I wouldn't be able to talk to him again.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So I'd rather do spend the rest of my life in prison uh and still be able to at least talk to him.
SPEAKER_07:And so I made a conscious choice this day.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I did. And um I hid the gun somewhere, but that gun turned up and I hid some money somewhere, but anyways, all that got uh discovered. All my efforts were foiled.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And uh then they got me at the house. And um, but I my my neighbor did have right. I took Rayleigh uh Riley to my neighbors, so she didn't choose two, so she didn't experience yeah. Um but yeah.
SPEAKER_07:How long did you how much prison time did you serve?
SPEAKER_01:So this is a miracle. So um so it started out because they were all hostile takeovers, there's kidnappings.
SPEAKER_07:If if you move yeah, major, major, major, major felonies.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So I was looking at three life sentences with the state of California.
SPEAKER_07:And um Wow, Michael, that's incredible.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll never forget they the the jail that they were holding me in is actually closed now because it's inhumane. Uh so uh, but while we were in it, they were saying it's it's not livable and they were paying a fine for it. So I was in an inhumane jail. Okay, I got and I'm not hyperbolizing at all. It was like about 120 degrees at one point on the 4th of July. I'll never forget 2011. And uh the if you could imagine, so this is the jail. The road right here on this side of it is where the parade is. And every year I would take my daughters to the parade. Yeah, they were right there at that parade. My jail cell was right here on the top floor. Uh, I think it's Y or X, um, I think it was Y. Or no, Z, it was Z section. And um, anyways, and they were right here. So 120 degrees, they had this fan blowing, so it was like this whole major um like a hair blower kind of thing.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I said, Well, this is it. This is my the rest of my life. So I can either be horrible for the rest of my life, or I can be thankful for what I got and live for God and love for God. Love, and I I remember praying for a Bible. Um, I didn't even have a Bible, I was just trying to quote the scriptures in my mind.
SPEAKER_07:How long had you been sentenced yet, or was this right after your arrest?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I got arrested in uh July well twice because they I actually got out um for for a month on on um on um good recognizance. Yeah, recognized recognition. I can't even speak English, sorry. But uh they they they put up money, bail, and I I was out for a month. Um and that was good because I was able to be around my mom for one last moment and then uh and be around my kids for just a little bit. Uh I actually came here to Vicelia to a wedding. Uh my cousin got married and then uh took a train trip back and that was pretty much it. And then uh I spent a weekend with them with my parents, and uh uh my dad let me borrow his book, uh Omar Kaisiam still remember that. Um that's a great book, anyways. Um so though these were uh Harold R uh Bell and Lamb, Harold Lamb. Anyways, um so those were little moments that I had that were you know good, God moments, right? Uh so then uh they came back and got me because then they realized there was more banks involved because they only got me for one at first and then they they got me for some more banks. And um they're like, oh, this guy's gonna be gone for life, so we shouldn't have him out on on um on um mail. So they put me back, and so now it's 4th of July and I'm um I'm looking at uh life, three life sentences, and that's when I knew my daughter was that w was right there. And I said, Okay, God, this is it. Let's go. And um there was a message preached on a Wednesday night by uh John Kenonis in the Bodesto Church. He's an assistant pastor. And um he wasn't at the time, he was uh I think he knew the pastor at the time, but he preached about on the foundation of David's greatest failure is the temple building. And I remember I took that and received that for me. Yeah, yeah. And uh and later on in prison I called him. I said, Hey, was that do you still believe that that was for me? He goes, Yes, absolutely, I believe that was for you. Um so then I'm like, okay, and uh I'm slain there and it's Solomon.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah I've looked at that story so many times because um because Solomon was the greatest king, the wise that I mean God turned around and blessed him after yeah, his and that's so powerful that blessed me long time ago when I first fell in love with my Bible to see the love of God show up that way. And anyways, that I'm gonna He's awesome.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, there's a lot I'd love to touch that sometime, but um yeah, so I held on to that promise. Bishop Morgan had preached a message about um that God gives these promises to you. Um and he in like he held on to uh Peter. Peter didn't was not worried when he was in prison because he knew that he was gonna live longer, right? And so uh he went to sleep. Yeah, he was like he rested. Yeah, God's got him. So I'm like, you know what? God gave me these promises. I don't think I'm um if if I am, I am, but I don't think I'm gonna be here for the rest of my life. And I said, But anyway, at either rate, here I am, God. I give it all to you. And um, I was in that situation for about a month, and then they transferred me to um to the detention center that's open now. Um, that was all brand new back then, and um, well, I think it was. Um and anyways, the lot going on, but I kept holding on, and I believed it was there, it was there in the detention center that God spoke to me, um, and he told me that I'm not gonna do life. That he's gonna take care of me. And I said, Okay, all right. So I've been in praying and praying and praying, and I was uh 280 pounds. I got down to like 200. I lost, I lost 80 pounds.
SPEAKER_07:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:And uh they couldn't recognize me in a lineup. So the feds picked me up.
SPEAKER_07:Was that on purpose?
SPEAKER_01:I purposely lost weight. I was exercising and and wouldn't eat bread. They had good biscuits, by the way. Side note. But I but uh yeah, but I I wouldn't eat them, I'd give them away, and um, I didn't uh hardly ask for any money of my books, you know, uh, because I didn't want to spend it on con I didn't think I didn't. Yeah. So I kept it simple and lost 80 pounds in six months and uh exercised. And um, anyways, the feds picked me up, and it was the day before Christmas. It was uh day before Christmas Eve, it was the 23rd of December of uh 2011.
SPEAKER_07:Because by now you're just picked up by local law enforcement. Feds hadn't stepped in yet to take over the case.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So I knew I was looking at three life sentences during the whole state time. Right. Um but now Uh the feds picked me up the day before Christmas Eve. And they I have all this stuff that people are giving me. I had a a white shirt that I uh my um sister-in-law bought me and uh she's amazing by the way. So um we I um they the f FBI picked me up and I'm changing into some clothes out of their clothes and I and it's super quiet. Oh no, no, I need a backup, backup, backup. Um in August my mom passes away and um I was there was a br um brother Evans would show up every week to my um to the cell and we're locked down 23-1. Um so um he he my door would pop and I knew my brother Evans would want me, uh I'd go see him. That was my church. And then um anyways, when my mom died, it was I she died on a Sunday, and that Monday morning my de my cell was not supposed to uh pop, my door was not supposed to pop open, and it popped open and I knew that she had passed away.
SPEAKER_07:That was a sign from God.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. And uh he came and he saw me, and and and I'll never forget and uh I'll never forget that. And it was it was really cool uh to for God to move and give me somebody and and uh because you know it's lonely in there.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And uh have somebody.
SPEAKER_08:Which was your Achilles too.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so it just heightened everything. Um yeah, I was a weird kid, and so you know, and then uh you weren't a weird kid, you just had a great need. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And uh so God took care of me over there. And I remember I was able to talk to my mom. My my daughter got the Holy Ghost that camp that summer, and uh, she told me Jason West was one that prayed for her. And uh, and I remember talking to my mom right before she died that Wednesday. I called her and um and I told her, I said uh to tell Jesus and uh King David, I said hi. She said she would. So David knows who I am. Yeah. Well, there you go. That's a great testimony. That's cool, huh?
SPEAKER_07:That's so funny. So uh when did you get out?
SPEAKER_01:So I so they pick me up that 23rd, and I I told everybody, Merry Christmas. They were like, But this is another miracle. The FBI pick takes me to my house. They're like, Man, you have all the stuff. They go knock on the door, they get my kid, and Haley is is nine years old, and Riley's just two, and they get Serena, and they all come out and they give them my stuff, and I was able to tell them goodbye.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, wow. Yeah, what a gift, because that was probably not common.
SPEAKER_01:So not common.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And uh so then they drive me to uh to uh to Fresno, and uh that's where the Fed federal holdings are and uh I remember coming into the courtroom it's packed because everybody wants their family members to come out for Christmas and uh the the judge she was reading off all my charges and it got up to 150 years, and the people are like making exclamations in the courtroom, and they're like, Oh my, you know, and even the judge is shaking her head and I just remember going, God, you got me, you got me. This is gonna be all right, it's gonna be all right. And uh sure enough, the first deal was 90. No, the first the what they were trying to charge me was 90 years. The first deal was 39 years, and they said, if you don't sign the 39, we're gonna give you 92. And I was like, Well, there's no difference between 39 and 92. Right. And I remember um the second deal was 32 years. They said it and I said, Nope. And they're like, my lawyer's like, what are you talking about? You know, this is normal. This is what you know, and I was like, No, God gave me told me he's gonna take care of me. I'm gonna get a better deal. I'm gonna get a better deal. God told me. And um two weeks before trial, um two weeks before trial, um, our my the prosecutor that was trying to prosecute me had a family emergency. His his son, I actually have never said this out. I don't think I've said this out loud. Maybe I have once. His son got uh cancer. So I started praying for his own son.
SPEAKER_04:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:And um we got a new prosecutor, and she didn't really want to deal with me. So she gave me a deal for 16 years. This is my third deal. And I he came That is miraculous. It's God. Yeah, it's God that's miraculous, absolutely God. Um, and I found out even greater because once I got in prison, I seen guys that did like two jobs, and they were doing 40 years. Oh, yeah, yeah. Now one guy, yeah, was in one, he did one and he was like 45 years.
SPEAKER_07:He was he Yeah, no, that's the hand of God for sure.
SPEAKER_01:100%. Um, and then uh so uh I sign it and I'm crying. I I I go over to the to back to my people that have been around, you know. Yeah, and I'm like, I got it for 16 years, and everybody's like cheering, like I scored a touchdown. I'm like, yes, right, yeah. But I was going to uh chapel on Sundays, and the lady said, You know what? I believe God's gonna give you even a better deal. I gave a testimony, you know. I said she said, uh, I believe God's gonna give you a better deal. And so I said, All right, and I believe it. So I I believed even for a better deal. But you were at peace. I was totally at peace. Yeah, I'm I'm getting out, you know. At first I wasn't gonna get out. Now I'm getting out. Right. And I'm getting out of time that I, you know, it's reasonably a good year, right? Right. So um, and at this time, none of these federal things have kicked in yet. Uh only the crack law kicked in while I was in and the the adjustment of the crack crack law. But they were talking about the meth law being uh chat uh um uh adjusted, which is two, they call it the two points law, then a two points law rather. And they were talking about um the this thing was gonna be called the first step act where you're gonna get more time, a halfway house and stuff. But I'm a violent criminal, so none of these things are supposed to apply. Right. So um, but I kept believing God for them, right? And people did, ah, that's not gonna happen. Oh, let me jump back. So I go to the courtroom, it's my time. Um I felt so isolated, so alone. I was actually, they had me in Lerdo Max, not in Fresno, because I think even Fresno people come see me, but now I'm in Lerdo Max, it's hard for people to see me. Um a guy named Monte Abelos, he's a who he's uh with Jesus now, but amazing man of God. He came and visited me, and then he had other people come and visit me. He was he was a Christian, Jewel. And um, anyways, so may his memory be blessed. He was a good man. Um so he uh so I I'm now isolated and I come out and I'm in I was always because yeah, it was a black box, I was always black boxed. And um so I'm I'm uh and they changed my time because my family shows up and uh apparently my loved ones they filled the courtroom. Wow. Yeah. That was that was pretty cool, you know.
SPEAKER_07:And uh Yeah, I guess so many families turn their back.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, some drove up all the way from LA, but like like the clerks drove all the way from LA, Ontario area, and then um and you know, Fresno's far from Modesto, they don't you know they go to Sacramento, they don't go to Fresno.
SPEAKER_06:Right.
SPEAKER_01:So um they uh all drove down and I get in there and uh this is res there's an this is important, uh, besides the fact that all of a sudden I felt loved. I walk in and I'm trying to tell everybody I love you, like with the black box and I'm looking out there and trying to read it all in. It's pretty cool, and I see this young lady um sitting in the front. I thought she was a cousin that grew up because I just didn't recognize her. But I tell her I love you, you know. And then I go and um it's my turn to talk, and um I I talk and um I was talking from the heart, and I turned back to tell my dad, hey, I'm sorry for being a you know, putting a black um mark on your name and all that. And I'm crying, and everybody else is crying, and that young lady's crying, so I just don't think anything of it. Well, the judge uh O'Neill, Judge O'Neill, he says, I've never seen this many bank robberies and have no victims like come in and write a letter that they were um they went to work the next day. I I was trying to be polite. I you know, I I'm sorry if you're watching this, I do apologize for robbing your bank. Um but uh so anyways, long story short, I tried to be as you know, I don't know. But anyways, I wasn't trying to be uh hurtful or anything. Right. So um he goes, I've never seen that, and never seen that have I seen a lot uh a person where they're they're going down the highway and dude just it's like they did a three sixty. Yeah, exactly. He's like obviously there's some substance abuse, which there was. And um he goes, I'm not gonna give you the 16 that you signed for, or that there was a 20-year minimum, and I'm the only one on my case, so this is total god.
SPEAKER_07:There's no no attorney involved.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, no the attorney, but it's saying what I mean by that is um that's there's no there's no accessories, right? So I'm not snitching on nobody, right? Right. Like, and if that's your testament, good, I'm not judging, I'm just saying Right.
SPEAKER_07:You you didn't have a deal to make. I didn't have a deal.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, exactly. Thank you. Exactly. That's how I should say it. Um, so uh 20-year minimum. He goes, he goes, but I'm not gonna do that, I'm gonna give you hope. And he took one more year off. He gave me 180 months, 15 years.
SPEAKER_04:Wow, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:He goes, I've been up since uh five o'clock or three o'clock that morning. And so I'm thankful. The prosecutor got up and she was crying. Wow, that's not right, nothing I could say to make a prosecutor cry. Right, that's God, right? You know what I mean? Right. Turns out that the young lady that was crying was the prosecuting assistant. Oh, wow. That was so God moved in that courtroom. God moved.
SPEAKER_07:Well, I imagine all your family was praying too.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, 100% their prayers, 100%. Um, yeah, I mean, uh Tirso Gonzalez, I don't know if you know him.
SPEAKER_07:He I'm horrible at nights.
SPEAKER_01:He's the pastor in Fresno. He was there, Mike Simmons, he's the family cousins. He was there. Um, it was packed, you know.
SPEAKER_07:So did you do the 15, Mike?
SPEAKER_01:So this is what the the yeah, thank you for telling me. So I go to prison and I still believe God was gonna do something. Even though I'm a violent criminal, nothing's supposed to happen. Um uh Trump signs this thing called the Second Step Act. That opens the door for all these programs. And um Was that when they started releasing people from prison?
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_07:Because all of us good conservative Republicans got really angry about that.
SPEAKER_02:But I'm glad that someone like you were able to get out because of that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the programs, see, if you put somebody just a side note, if from somebody that's been in prison, uh, if you treat somebody like a dog, they're gonna be a dog when they get out.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:If you train somebody to stay in a cage, they're gonna want to stay in the cage.
SPEAKER_07:Right. We see that over the recidivism rate. Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think they gave me a 20% chance of making it when I got because I've done so much time that I uh to go back. And it's hard. I'm not gonna lie. It the first year, it's still hard, but the first because you have to associate, right?
SPEAKER_07:You have to gang up and become into a game. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_07:Um how much time did you serve?
SPEAKER_01:So I did 13 years total. Um the last year of it, though, was uh 11 and a half months was uh in Oakland at a halfway house. Okay. So um 12 of it was behind bars, and the the last year was 11 and a half months was out. It was in um public, but I would get locked up every night, right? You know, uh at the halfway house. Um the set that second step act is what helped. I was taking all these programs and all that. It was a miracle. The long story of it to cut it short. I was supposed to originally come to Fresno, um but uh I checked with I was checking with uh my uh counselor or the secretary, and she goes, No, you're going to San Francisco or Oakland. I was like, What? And she goes, Yeah, so I was transferred to Oakland. Um, but I also got 11 and a half months. I was the first violent criminal in from my what I understand in my prison to get more than six months halfway house.
SPEAKER_05:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:God. So I I did 12 really behind bars, excuse me, I'm so sorry, on a 15-year sentence.
SPEAKER_07:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:A violent criminal.
SPEAKER_07:And then you did the rest, and then the the other um two years was because of the Trump Act. So no, none for good time, sir.
SPEAKER_01:So the good time was that 15%. And then you oh, oh, that also added 105 days because they adjusted our time that was messed up. So I got because I did so much time, they it was seven days a year. They gave me another 105 days. That put it on for thank you for bringing that up. Then I um they gave me more, uh, like five more months extra halfway house. So that put me outside at 12, yeah, even though the last half of that was still behind, you know, but I was still able to go to church. Right. That's the other part of the miracle. Greg, do you know Greg Godwin? He's an evangelist.
SPEAKER_07:I don't know names much.
SPEAKER_01:You know what? My bad, I apologize. But Greg Godwin gets a hold of me while I was in the halfway house. Um, and and he goes, You need to go to Bishop Morgan's church. Well, I'm I'm trying to Because he's in San Francisco, yeah. So I'm trying to ninja out of this, right? I'm not still trying to, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_07:Wait, you're still not trying to be part of UPC, right?
SPEAKER_01:I want to come back to God, right? Absolutely.
SPEAKER_07:But you wanted to not be a part of the church.
SPEAKER_01:Right. I didn't want I didn't think I thought it was just gonna be like right.
SPEAKER_07:So I'm like, ah because it's scary, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I love God. I served God in prison. There's there's there's a period of time prison where I was like, let's go. And you know, it was rough, it was rocky, but I I did. I studied, I learned um a lot of things and started stuff because I knew at one point I'm gonna come back to church. Yeah, so I started um studying the Bible, and because people don't plan to fail, they fail the plan, right? So I'm like, hey, God's gonna still use me, He's still got me. So I started studying and praying and reading and digging, and um, but I didn't know if it was gonna be a UPC. I didn't, I thought it was gonna be like independent or some, you know. Right. And so I'm in the three-day back the blackout period, and uh a guy named Shane Hunt gets a hold of me, and he he and I remember David Short I was telling you about he he pastors in Arizona. David Short emails a guy named Jeremy Hogue, who's uh Bishop Morgan's uh son-in-law.
SPEAKER_07:Yes, I buy clothes from his wife. Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_01:Anyways, yeah, so and then uh so Jeremy and then okay, so uh Greg Godwin gets a hold of Jeremy, and then Shane Hunt gets hold of Jeremy. He says, Jeremy, you need to go see Mike in uh Oakland. So he comes and sees me. I get out uh April 12th, um, and he sees me the 24th, two weeks later. So I never have a chance to. I went to one Baptist church and it was horrible. Nothing against Baptist church, but it was just the message was horrible. Stop saying, I know. I'm like, uh no, this is not me. So so uh so Jeremy sees me, he picks me up. There's another thing. You know how uh ladies uh have uh this hope chest for when they get married, you know. I when I was in prison, I was gonna get out, so I had this little hope chest, you know? Wow, and um, there's a a brand that's not a very well-known brand, but I I like it. And uh he nobody really knows about it unless you like lumberjacks or something, you know. So um it he's wearing one of those shirts. Oh. And uh I'm like, no way. I'm like, you like that? And he goes, How do you know? Like we're both like, there's no way. Okay, so he picks me up in his truck. We drive around to um MacArthur and to Adams Point right here. He goes, I was praying for you this morning. He goes, and God doesn't normally speak to me this quickly. He goes, but God told me Samson's hair began to grow. Does that mean anything to you? And I just begin to ball because for the last two years, I was mad, angry with God. Like, God, what's the deal? I never had a choice. I never had a choice. I was always gonna be a preacher. There was no, I didn't have an option from birth.
SPEAKER_07:And uh and God brought up Oh, so he was speaking to you about Samson's call on his life.
SPEAKER_01:Oh Samson, so I'd been arguing with God about Samson. And I said, Well, Samson never had a choice, but then God had brought up. I had never told anybody. God brought up Samuel as well. The two men that were born had a Nazarite vow from birth had no choice, right? But one embraced it, the other one fought it.
SPEAKER_07:Right. And so Well, no, the other one didn't fight it, fight it, he fell.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:A woman.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07:I mean, I know there's a lot to Samson, but I agree. But he was he was weak in the because he he immediately disobeyed his parents when he wanted somebody that was from the Philistine camp.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, he was 40 years old when he when he did when that happened with Delilah. So, and he had already been a successful judge. So he wasn't even a kid when he did this. But he never fully this what I mean by fighting is he's he never fully embraced it. Like he was always Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_07:So I'm not trying to argue with you, but I try to embrace it. I hope that didn't come across that.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, no. I was um trying to clarify where so it kind of plots out. I was in my 30s, yeah, he's in his 40s. Um, there was a time there was a period where Samson did embrace it, right? And then there's a time where he didn't, like where he's like, I want to do it my way. That kind of thing.
SPEAKER_07:Right. I think he probably took it for granted.
SPEAKER_01:He definitely I feel like that way, absolutely.
SPEAKER_07:Because it just was easy for him. God just had always anointed him.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, you know, yes, he took his calling and his separation and his covenant for granted. Yeah. Yep, his anointing. Yeah, and uh he was different, and then that was the other part of it was I had to live different. I didn't, I didn't have a choice. I had to be different.
SPEAKER_07:Correct. There is no uh that was part of the word that was given to me in '95. And the preacher said he called, I was on the back row, called me out, tell you everything. But he said, God doesn't bargain. If you will live for him with all of your heart, yes, yes, and and he says, and God doesn't bargain, yes, he will do blah, blah, blah.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_07:And you know, I didn't, I can honestly say now I do.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:But you know, we don't, I think we don't know that we're not.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_07:But God knows because he sees. And I think so much of what he's exposing in all of us as we walk out this journey is he's revealing what's been buried in our heart that we didn't even know was buried. Yes. But he did, yes, and he's trying to expose it so that we could give it to him. Yes, and that it doesn't hold us because you didn't know the seeds that were gonna crop up in your life. I didn't know the seeds, but God knew the seeds.
SPEAKER_01:He knew.
SPEAKER_07:And so that that separation and um you're right, you're dead on, yes.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, and that's that's the height. That was it, right? God called me to this path, he called me to this dedication.
SPEAKER_07:There's not gonna be because it has to do with the call.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yes, but isn't it blessed?
SPEAKER_08:It's worth it.
SPEAKER_01:It's worth it, it's worth it. It's worth it. Yes, there's an anointing that comes with that.
SPEAKER_07:That's a hard road, but it's not hard, I think, when you understand and you can just, you know, I think about um even if, you know, even if this is all there is, even if God, there's you know, all the things I used to think, and I think God removes that too. Like all the desires that I used to have that was about that prophecy. Yes, like I'm okay. Yes, if none of them ever happen, I'm so okay because of what we get to have with God. Yes, you know, there's nothing like that relationship.
SPEAKER_01:Nothing, nothing, nothing. You can't, but there's now no value. No, you can't pay anything. Um I and because you're living this way, you don't realize that it's different. You don't even know. Like, I didn't, I just thought that everybody experienced it. I didn't I just assumed I didn't know you only have yourself to judge by. Yeah, yeah. So I saw you're right, and it is a choice. You're right. Let me clarify that. He does give us the choice. This is what I was fighting, but this is a choice. Because if you look at the blessings of God, especially in Deuteronomy, he goes, if right you obey, right, you know, if and so then I will.
SPEAKER_07:But it doesn't go against our will.
SPEAKER_01:He doesn't, he gives it to you to choose. Yes, and so if if you choose to serve me, if you choose to live, this is the way I'm a path I want you to live. If you're obedient to that, I'm gonna bless you. And and Samuel, and look at so Samuel says, okay, and then he embraces it. He embraces the calling, he does it, and becomes the greatest judge of Israel. Okay, and his word never hits the ground, right? Never, never. So you see somebody that embraces it and you see somebody that fights it, that struggles with it, you know. And that was Samuel, Samson rather. And that's when he said, Samson's hair, I've been involved because I'm sitting there and I begin to I just broke and prayed through all over again right there. Because I knew that I gotta I choose. I can either when Samson said okay and embraced it, that's when he made the greatest right, right.
SPEAKER_08:Of all time.
SPEAKER_07:And even though it's normal for other people to do, it's not it's so to me, this is what he taught me. That's a consecration, yeah. Because there are things that um is not okay, yeah. But it it's not a sin issue, and it's not a uh a theological issue, it's a consecration issue.
SPEAKER_01:And and yeah, isn't that beautiful when God it's crazy because there's things I'm looking around, I'm like, oh, it's not bad for them, and everybody will be they'll be but it's so easy when you're in love with him.
SPEAKER_07:Yes, that's you know, because you love him, you want to please him. Like I don't ever, ever, ever want to hurt him. Oh you know, yeah, yeah. It's love, I think.
SPEAKER_03:It's absolutely love.
SPEAKER_07:And there is, I don't know if you've experienced this yet, but I certainly have. I don't have the loneliness anymore. God is totally healed. I I see a need, yeah, you know, but it isn't for the same reasons that it once was, you know. And that's because God fills the void. Everything else is gonna be, you know, icing on the cake. It's just an added little gift of his kindness and his goodness towards us. But um, but I I don't I don't know if you've experienced that yet where the loneliness is gone. But he will feel that.
SPEAKER_01:I it's it's um so how it's been right now personally has been um So you've been out real quick for how many so technically uh two years kind of um but because um that year in the halfway house I was I was out really I was behind bars, but I was out because I was able to go to work. Right. And and that was a miracle. I got a job, but I it was 2023.
SPEAKER_07:So two years. So have you were you at a halfway house for all of 2023? Yes. So you've been free for a year to where you can but you still have to stay within a yeah, my comprobation officer knows that I'm here.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07:And I I gonna, I'm sorry, I'll probably have to have you back again because there's so many layers that are really important to talk to talk about. Um so what where are you now in terms of I know there's still a lot more healing God's gonna do, right? In all of us, but but what what's he speaking to you about now?
SPEAKER_01:Oh wow. I mean, you've actually been like st uh walking all over it, right? It's been amazing because um I'm preaching again.
SPEAKER_07:Wow, crazy. Well, because what a testimony.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, he's amazing, God. He's so he's so good. He's so good. Both of my daughters live for God.
SPEAKER_07:Wow, how old is Riley?
SPEAKER_01:Riley's uh 16, she turns 17 in January, and then you're seven years older, right?
SPEAKER_07:Yes, that's right.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, she's 22. Yes, and um wonderful, yeah. It's amazing what God's doing.
SPEAKER_07:So are you staying in Oakland because of probation stuff right now, or or will you eventually live closer to where your family is?
SPEAKER_01:Oh so um I God called me there. Okay, I called me the bay. So you feel to stay okay? Even as a young man, I was trying to get out there to start a church. Um I I had felt that call. And God never like it's cool how he works it all out. Like, um, and I even even in prison, I thought, you know, I'm probably gonna be going to the Bay Area at some point and start, you know, starting a church.
SPEAKER_07:Is Brother Morgan still there? Is he okay?
SPEAKER_01:He's the he he he's the bishop, he pastors uh uh San Francisco.
SPEAKER_07:Because I know he's in other places too, so I didn't know where his home office was. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, and I was just there yesterday, actually. Okay. Um, but uh so I go to church twice on Sunday. I go to the one uh Jeremy's in El Cerrito, and then he goes, we all go back into the home church in San Francisco. Okay, and uh I love it.
SPEAKER_07:So if I'm hearing you right, God never changed his mind about your call to preach. Oh and so he walked you through all of the learning the lessons, right? Yes to bring you back to this point.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you nailed it when uh you know the patience, the waiting. And um, there's a story with Samuel. Uh it's called uh we call it Ebony Ebenezer, but it's Ebon Haetzer, it's the rock of our help. And um if the battle happened in the with the Philistines where uh the they brought the Ark of the Covenant out and they lost, and the Philistines took the Ark. Um then of course. I remember all that, yeah. So they get the Ark back. Now San uh Samuel's in charge. He takes them in, they fight the same spot. This time they win because God is their help, God is their rock, they're obedient.
SPEAKER_07:Everything comes full circle, full circle, everything comes full circle.
SPEAKER_01:And here I am again, back, you know, and you were talking about the loneliness. Um, it's healing for the first time in my life. Life.
SPEAKER_07:Well, Michael, don't you feel you have a better understanding of who you are?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. Um, and it's cool, like it's like um, I call it a lacuna. Lacuna is like an archaeological term where it's a missing piece, right? So it's not just a gap, there's actually a piece that's missing from it. And so I have this this this missing piece, this lacuna right here. And I would I even in prison, I'm like, God, I don't understand this. Um your holy ghost is supposed to. You said your word in your word that if you drink of your water, you'll never thirst again. But I'm thirsty and I have your holy ghost. I I have this loneliness, I have this desire to have a person in my life.
SPEAKER_07:That's what it is. If it was filled, you wouldn't keep praying. Yeah, right? And it may, maybe it remains for you to continue to intercede for that until it's filled. Yes. Because prayer, God works through prayer. He 100% works through prayer. And and when we do have a desire, it becomes a a burden, right? That you have to burst in the spirit.
SPEAKER_01:You're it's you're absolutely right. Is here's the thing. Merle Ewing said this: like, I'll never forget, he said, you can't um something that's full, right? If you put a uh a water hose and you turn it on, and uh you put a cap on the end of that water hose, it's technically not full. There's an air, there's a bubble of air in it. The only time that water hose is completely full is when you take off the cap and the water's flowing through it. So the only way I can heal, right? Where and it's been healing, it's getting smaller and smaller and smaller is by God using me and being letting his spirit flow through me. Me being a part of the body, letting the Holy Ghost flow through me. That's where the healing in that water I'm full. Notice what the woman did at the well. She said, if you drink up my water, you'll never thirst again. She goes and gets people and brings them back. She became used immediately. The water, the water is flowing through her. Right. That's where it's full. That's where it's at. It's being a part of each other. And like, you know, we we blow up the whole, you know, fivefold ministry and and all that. We're servants. Right. It's all of it's all right, it's only for the body.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, the the gifts are the gifts are always about the body. It's not about to be somebody, it's not for a title. No. It's and I think it's I think it's more about intimacy with God because when we get to hear him, when we get to intercede for someone because he reveals something, it's all out of love. Yes. And I think you just have to experience that, yeah, you know, for it, for that, for you to a person to know that, right? It it it's all flowing from a place of love, which is what the Bible says, but it's so different when you understand it from experience versus what we're told. You know, and we do idolize on well, in our celebrity, yeah. We we we grew up that way, and I Again, I don't think it's anyone's fault. I just think it was the culture.
SPEAKER_01:But osmosis.
SPEAKER_07:But it's changing, I think.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, it is.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I and I this w where I've been learning is I'm healing, right? And and I'm back to the same battles that I had before. Right.
SPEAKER_07:Because you gotta overcome them last time. Yes.
SPEAKER_01:But I don't have a choice, right? Like this is right. I go back to prison if this doesn't happen. Right. You know? Um, so I'm this is where I'm at. And God has brought me a mighty long way. And I don't, I'm, I'm, I got two daughters, I got my dad, I got, you know, a church that loves me. They're having me preach. Like, it's crazy. I'm preaching out. Like, this is not, you know, right. The the UPC has brought me back in, wrapped arms around me. Like I went in and they're I went, I was so scared. I went to um youth convention like a couple years ago, and they came out and hugged me.
SPEAKER_03:Like, like what?
SPEAKER_01:Like, you know, yeah. Um, but God is is definitely I'm learning the the whole waiting, the patient. Um, but it's all about him and it's learning to it's a it's a cooperation. Uh Romans 8 28. Um, all things work. He's actually quoting out of the Shema and out of Isaiah, but because you were talking about if love God with all your heart, right? When you love God with all your heart and you're following his purpose, he'll take even your pain and all your suffering and use that as a gift. Right.
SPEAKER_08:But I believe it. I've seen him, yeah.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Kim Haney wrote a book years ago called Um God's Got a Waiting Room. And it's it's excellent because we all walk through that season where we wait, you know, and I'm 30 years. So I I've said this, I'm 30 years. I prayed back through 30 years ago. Awesome. But um I s I stayed in non-denominational churches, I healed out there. But anyways, I've been back in UPC for well, since my cousin took over the church, probably five years, but you know, but that's been a journey too. But um I learned through that book that I just have to take all my expectations off the table. Yes. But God has answered all of my childhood questions and prayers, and the the prayers that didn't get answered long ago that broke my heart. Yes. He gave me understanding in him, he gave me answers for them, and he never had to do that for me, but he did because he's good. He's a good person. And he wants he wanted me to know, you know, the reasons why those prayers didn't get answered. But you know, it doesn't matter now, but it I was gonna serve him anyways, but he loved me enough to give me answers to just comfort me in something that I was gonna be okay with no matter what. But he's just good. I mean, I'm excited. This is still pretty fresh and new for you.
SPEAKER_02:So cool.
SPEAKER_07:But what a miracle! So many. So and you know, I think, Michael, there are so many backsliders out there who God has called, and they got tripped up because of all the same reasons we did, yes, not fitting, being lonely, trying to find a place, yes, because ultimately they don't know their identity and who God God's got something so much more and bigger for them. But you know what? Your story and the stories of others who've been on the podcast is gonna help. Oh because you know, not just because God redeemed you, but because there was there was a call long before there was ever a falling away. Yes, yes, and um, and I think many, many backsliders share that identity piece, you know. Yeah, yeah. So I I gotta wrap up because my sorry. No, no, I listen. My pastor had told me I I can talk and talk and talk. And your story is rich on so many levels. And I I want to dig into all the pieces. Okay. Um, because I feel like there's so many jewels there, you know, just how the enemy comes against us, yes, what he tells us, what what is real to our own emotional struggle as a human, how God wired us. Yeah. And then you add sensitivity on top of all that, and it just, you know, it's just the perfect storm. But um, I'm grateful that you're here today.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you for letting me come.
SPEAKER_07:You know, I'm so grateful. Um, I always end with the same two questions.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_07:Um, I want to start backwards with you today on that. So um, your dad is here with us today and has stayed in ministry throughout all of this, which I imagine um I want to have you on someday to tell your story. Um, but what do you say to the parents? Because I think you're fortunate not all parents would stick around. What do you say to the parent who had a kid who has a kid out there like you were?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. You know, um, truthfully, my dad, I'm not saying this because he's sitting here, um but uh he did the right thing. Um he just loved me.
SPEAKER_07:It's really hard to do when when we're horrific humans. Yeah. It's really hard to love beyond bad um behavior. Yes.
SPEAKER_01:And when you're especially in this situation where me, where he had to spend I don't even know how much money he had to say to take care of my kids, take care of me while I was in prison, it's a sacrifice.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But if you just keep loving them, just love them. Uh fruit, when it hits the ground, it actually turns the ground into fertile ground soil. So the fruit of your spirit is not going uh unnoticed. It's actually resoiling that ground that you're with your kids. And if you just keep loving them, being patient with them, you're gonna turn that soil into fertile ground.
SPEAKER_07:And then what do you say to the backslider who hasn't come back yet? And particularly to the one that's afraid to go back to UPC church, like you were, like I was, like every UPC backslider kid I've talked to is so afraid to go back to our church environment. What do you say to them?
SPEAKER_01:Well, the first thing is a whole lot different than what it was growing up. It's a whole it's not the same. And um I think you need to come home. Yeah. You need to come home. Okay. And if I know you, I love you. It's just letting you know. I love you, and I'm praying for you. This is home. There's nothing like being home. There's nothing like the presence of God. Nothing. And like you said, it's worth it. It's worth it. There's nothing in this world that's not worth that's worth trading this in for. Nothing. Yeah, it's all empty. It's all empty. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:Well, I um I think we're running out of memory on the camera. So sorry. Oh, no, don't apologize. I mean, I I talked probably as much as you. So uh Michael, it what a pleasure and what what a redemption story that you have. And um man, if anybody doubts if God is still doing miracles, He is still doing miracles. And I believe there's more to come, greater things than this, and many, many more miracles to come. So um, as we close, if you know Backslider, if you're familiar with Michael Torres and knew him when he was a preacher back in the day, will you please share his testimony with with others and share our uh share our our channel and please like and subscribe and if God leads you to donate, that helps too. Um but pray for us because um we just really want to reach the backslider. Yes. So God bless you all, and uh thanks for being here and thank you so much. Bye.
SPEAKER_00:We are so glad you joined us. If you have a story of redemption or have worn the label of a backslider, we would love to hear from you. If you'd like to support our ministry, your donation will be tax deductible. Visit our website at the redeemed backslider.org. We hope you will tune in for our next episode.
