What About The "Standards" TRB #38 Pastor Jeremy Cain

The word holiness can feel like a verdict, especially if you’ve been burned by “standards” that sounded more like a measuring stick than good news. Kathy sits down with her pastor to untangle the knot: holiness as a life turned toward God, standards as practices that may flow from that love, and the harm that happens when we reverse the order. The conversation is tender, candid, and practical—rooted in real stories of backsliders who returned against all odds and found that God had been working the whole time.

We get honest about what keeps people away: the belief that you must fix everything before God will receive you, the sting of conference moments that celebrate strictness while fragile hearts shut down, and the old habit of wearing an image like armor. Kathy shares her own journey—fashion, jewelry, hair, and the gym culture that once defined her—and how God slowly reshaped identity from the inside out. The pastor offers a clear path: start with presence, not performance. Let love make surrender light. Fruit will follow the root.

Tune in for more...

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Why This Topic
• 2:20 The Backslider’s Return As A Miracle
• 6:55 Holiness Versus Standards
• 13:40 Barriers, Perception, And Past Hurt
• 20:15 Love, Authority, And The Hair Question
• 27:35 Depth Of Presence And Holiness Culture
• 33:55 Identity, Image, And Inner Change
• 41:10 Genuine Holiness And Bearing Fruit
• 48:05 Singlehood, Boundaries, And Healing
• 55:20 The Journey Back And Patient Pastoring
• 1:02:40 Final Encouragement And Invitations

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Welcome to the Redeemed Backslider. With your host, Kathy Chastain, Christian-based psychotherapist and redeemed backslider. This podcast is dedicated to those who have wandered but are ready to return to the life-changing power of grace and the freedom found in Jesus.

SPEAKER_01: 0:22

Hi, welcome to the Redeem Backslider. I'm your host, Kathy Chastain. I'm a Christian-based psychotherapist and I'm a Redeemed Backslider. I'm trying really hard not to laugh because my cousin is sitting here with me laughing. I know you're trying really hard not to laugh as I open up. But with me today is my pastor. And um and I've said this before, he's my family member too. So, you know, uh, I say that only because I might slip and call him by his name, but he is my pastor, and um I'm very grateful for that today. So uh we are going to broach a really difficult subject today, um, the quote unquote standards of being in an apostolic church. And I wanted to talk to him about this because when I came back, his approach with me was very loving and what I needed for many reasons, which maybe we'll get into, maybe we won't. But I have heard as I've had these podcasts and as I've talked to backsliders, um every single conversation, if it's a female and sometimes males, come back to how we live as apostolics. And I I think that even for me, this subject is touchy, and I know it it's been touchy for some that's come back. So I wanted you to hear from my pastor and his heart um as we move forward, and um, we're just gonna go from there. So thanks for doing this again.

SPEAKER_02: 2:04

It's I'm I'm really glad to be here again, Calf. It's so much fun, and um I'm so very proud of the the work you're doing here, and uh its reach is incredible to see um I've heard so many good reports back from very strange sources. I'm like, what you've seen that and just people have come because uh what you're doing is really touching a very wide, wide audience. And I think the backslider um can get lost in the shuffle of a church that's moving on and going forward. But I just appreciate you just you know taking the time to really reach back to people who have have a real heart toward God and maybe trying to heal some of those hurts that cause them to go away. So it's a beautiful, beautiful thing to see. And I just want to congratulate you on the incredible job you're doing. Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 2:58

Means a lot, means a lot. Um, so I want the audience to hear the heart of a pastor, at least my pastor. I I know we can't speak for others out there, but you you have a you you talk to many other pastors, you know pastors, you are in in community with them. Um what is your heart about the backslider? What are you seeing? We've had I was counting about 10 backsliders that have come back in the last I I was thinking like two years, you know, um, that's just come back to our church. And I I think 10 is a large number. What are your what are your thoughts on that? Is that a large number? What do you think?

SPEAKER_02: 3:48

I think locally, yes. I think it is. I think it is. I like I said, I think your your reach in this podcast is well beyond the local. You're talking what's happened in our church, and I'm you know, I'm pretty, pretty amazed at that because the the backslider has a tendency to be written off. Like, well, that's just they're just choosing that way, they just will never be back. And so when they when they come back and their heart is open and God just remolds them, you think, wow, that's it's it's so amazing. It's and it's such a seemingly quick work that God does. And you don't realize that God has been working on them the whole time, He's been watching over them the whole time, and and so to see them back locally is it's always miraculous. And it's I guess it's always kind of dumbfounding. Like, man, I thought I thought you could never come back from that. Wow, you know, I mean, like you I don't know if it's just so it feels shocking to see them come back. I think it's shocking the ones that come back, yeah. And the ones that you think, oh, they're they're not far from the kingdom, they're right there, they're right on the and and those seem to just teeter right on the edge and just leave, you know, and leave a lot of that undone. And then you see these ones that just kind of way, way, way out of bounds, and you think you just can't recover from that situation, and those are the ones that come back, and they're just you know, they're all in, they're just on the cusp of just the very cutting edge of what God is doing in the church, and they're just so happy to be home. You think I sure didn't see that coming. Yeah, you know, and that's how you, I mean, I I guess it's how you really know it's a God thing, is like you thought, because in from all human perspective, you look at it and go, This is impossible. And then God steps in and and uh you see them just make this incredible, incredible change, and you think, wow, that's the least like likely candidate comes back. It's pretty amazing.

SPEAKER_01: 5:46

Yeah, I feel like it's really miraculous. I mean, I I think myself, because I know who I was, it's just a miracle what God has done and what he's still doing, because I know I would have never seen this or or even my career field like as a high school dropout, I would have never in a million years thought I would be sitting in a chair in a position to help someone else, you know, because I was I was so uh undone in my own life. And I feel like every backslider story is a miracle of God and his redemption towards them. And the some of the ones we've seen in the church, like like Keith and Carrie and Raina, and just there's so many others, each of those stories I feel is just God's I want to say sovereignty, yeah, his hand moving in each of those lives because the longevity of how far how long they were gone, the depravity of how far they went being gone. All of us really, you know, it just looks different on each person.

SPEAKER_02: 7:00

Yeah, yeah. It's such a beautiful thing that's what I think that's what's the greatest thing is like God it truly shows that God loves performing miracles.

SPEAKER_01: 7:11

Like he just takes we just don't always recognize it as that.

SPEAKER_02: 7:15

Yeah, and you do you just see it in people's eyes when they come back to come back to God, they come back to that relationship, come back home. Um, it's such a beautiful thing to see. And like you said, it's it's the ones that are three sheets to the wind, and you almost write it off. You're talking a little bit about yourself, and because we're you know, we're family, that um, you know, growing up, I think you might have mentioned uh, you know, growing up together, I was able to watch your life from a a distance, you know, and and uh maybe you don't see its effect, but over time I saw you go in and out of different situations and struggles and stuff like that, and watching you grow up, that was a you think, oh man, you know, oh well this mistake's too far, this mistake's too far. So to see what God has just completely uh, you know, rerouted your life to to just this, you know, walk with him and and using you in this in this uh ministry to ch change lives is just incredible to see. And it's only a it's only the hand of the Lord. It's only the hand of the Lord.

SPEAKER_01: 8:20

So well, I think you said at Thanksgiving you said, oh, this girl is wild. And it's so funny to hear someone else's observation, you know. But I was I was crazy. Yeah, uh-huh. That's so diplomatic.

SPEAKER_02: 8:40

Well, you know, I I think about it like when we were growing up, I say, you know, when I'm in my teenage years, you're in your early 20s, somewhere in there.

SPEAKER_01: 8:51

Yeah, I think you're eight years younger, nine years younger.

SPEAKER_02: 8:54

So like whenever you would come, you know, from wherever you were uh back home for you know Christmas or Thanksgiving, it was always you know, like complete change. I remember when you know your hair was like short on the sides and then it was up, and I mean it was very, very fashionable for the day, very in in step with you know, whatever was going on in the world, whatever with height of fashion and beauty and all these kind of things. You were always in the middle of all that. And uh yeah, it was always a surprise how you it wasn't like you said, it wasn't disgusting, but it was it was clearly on the other side of where where you know, as as uh someone who who's grown up in church and the modesty and holiness and and all these sanctification and all these things, uh it was clearly outside of those bounds, but you you could tell you were like very much just trying to be, you know, trying to be be something, be accepted, be real, be among.

SPEAKER_01: 10:03

And um and that motivated me so much to be accepted and to try to find a place where I could fit because I never did fit. Now I don't try, I still like it if I can, you know, but but yeah, uh very, very attention seeking, which is interesting because I'm an introvert, so I never saw myself as attention seeking um because I didn't do it vocally, but I did it with my looks and my body. Yep. And you know, I used to run around half naked, and so yeah, all the time. But I was in an industry that really promoted that, and um, but yeah, so the modesty thing has been uh it's just all miraculous for me, you know. But it's also God has healed me in all those places that I haven't needed those things, like I once did. Um, so how many conversations are you having with backsliders as they come back? Are they are you having conversations or they come and ask you questions? Any of them coming about standard questions?

SPEAKER_02: 11:18

I I don't I don't think I feel a ton of questions about holiness, especially from backsliders. Um, because I think they already have kind of a pre-programmed, like if they've raised been raised in church, they already kind of have they already have kind of ideas of what they they believe for them is holiness. They believe that God has called them to, and those are things that they've run from. So when they come back, it's almost as if they already know what they need to do. They'll even tell you, I I know what to do. You know, if you meet somebody, um I recall a conversation I had with a really good friend of mine. In fact, my buddy Brent, who um I talked about at the last podcast, um, steal somebody on the very tip of my tongue and and forefront of my mind. I remember a conversation we were having. He was driving back from sac uh Sacramento, and um I I I did talk about how that um, you know, he came came from a very strict background. Um and um when I talked to him, I really felt called, you know, I really felt burdened for him, and and he's driving back. I said, Come, you know, just come. He he was making a trip up and back from Sacramento back down to uh to Lancaster. And I said, I said, just just stop in, come by, come by on church, stay at my house, come stay. And um, and he's all no. I said, bro, you can come back. He's like, man, you guys are you guys just aren't there yet. And I'm like, what what do you mean? And he had it in his mind that you know that we didn't preach or teach holiness to the level that he was taught. And I was taken aback um because there was some differentiation made when I was a a youth, and I didn't realize growing up here under my my pastor, um, I never felt that like heavy burden of to try to be holy or to be something, it was just an outgrowth of our relationship, and I always felt like that's the way he approached it. But this um that my friend was talking about was very um hard, uh like just the level of standards were there. This was the first recognition that there were a diff there was differences and variance in in our approach. This was when I was in, you know, I was like in junior high, maybe something like that, maybe at junior camp or something like that. I remember some some so back to the conversation. Um he had mentioned, you know, he he just he indicated to me that if he he's a he he distinctly said he said if if I come back, I've got to go back to my dad's church. I can't go anywhere else. And I thought to myself, man, wow, why would you say that? Like you can come back. Really, you just need to get around Christ, you just need Jesus back in your life. You need to, um, he loves you, he wants you to be close. I said, I'm I'm not asking you to go my way. Um I'm just I just want you to be close. I just want you to be close to God. But for him to get close meant to be completely a hundred percent perfect again.

SPEAKER_01: 14:47

And he and that was a stumbling block.

SPEAKER_02: 14:49

100%.

SPEAKER_01: 14:49

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_02: 14:51

I felt like that was one of the that was just the bridge too far. That was the the um it was just too much for him to reach. Um, he he had it in his mind, like this is kind of talking about the backsiders, he had this framework in mind that I must do all these things before God will accept me back.

SPEAKER_06: 15:10

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 15:11

And so he had a problem with drugs. He knew he couldn't get rid of that at that point. He had a problem with alcohol, he had a problem with women, he had a problem. I mean, I don't know about that. I I know he had a problem with drugs, alcohol, you know, smoking, all those kind of addictive things that he had going on in his personality and in and in his life, he'd open the door to all those things. He opened the door when we were teenagers to those things. Um, so he, you know, for him to come back to God, meant everything in his life that he called joy, everything that brought him peace, everything that gave him some bit of comfort in his life, you were asking him to throw all that away and walk back to Christ. And in in essence, do you need to do that? Yes, at some point you you're making that way back, but cold turkey out out of nowhere, right? It was just an impossibility for him. But he had this um, what you said, this this kind of structure built in his mind, all these things he had to do before he came back. And I was like, man, don't don't worry about those things right now. Just come back, get in the presence of God, let God help you with those things. You can't do them on your own. I mean, I don't think this walk with Christ and this life of holiness unto him can be done on in the flesh. In fact, it can't. It's just it's ugly, it's disgusting, it's not at all what Christ asks of us. It's when we're in Christ that he gives us the ability to become like him without, you know, so you can't you can't have that ab abstracted from from the conversation. It has to be with him, walking with him. And um he just didn't, I just don't think he could wrap that in his head. In his in his mind, he had his his his mindset that I have to do this, then I can come. Right, right. He said, I just need to get this done, I need to fix this, I'm gonna finish that, and I'll be I'm I'm making my way back, I'm coming back. And it it never made it.

SPEAKER_01: 17:18

So um with with him particularly, and uh, so for anyone listening, some some people are regular listeners, and you're part of our organization, others aren't. But in the Pentecostal movement, the apostolic movement that we are in, um there are, I guess, sects within it. And each sect, different churches, different people, uh believe differently in the whole modesty, I want to call it a standard. And so with we don't often get to hear what men go through. We always hear what the women go through, but with him, it was a sleeve-link thing, right? He was he was thinking that our church didn't hold a strict enough standard on how they dressed, and because we could wear short sleeves versus sleeves to the wrist, right?

SPEAKER_02: 18:17

That was one of one of his, I mean, one of his things that he was taught was sleeves always have to be down to the wrist for men, long sleeves, no shorts, all that kind of stuff. Which um, you know, that's one of those things he was, you know, he just couldn't bring himself to. All the addiction problems obviously were the the I think the major cat problem. But um and that's what I was trying to anyway. I was trying to get to him like, hey, look, baby steps back, right? Just just get in the presence of God. Let let your heart be open to him and let you know, let God love touch you again, you know, not don't be like, well, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't.

SPEAKER_01: 19:03

But that that is really the place that people live when they think they want to come back to church, but they only see what they have to give up if they come. Right. And so I I can we parse out standards versus holiness because I personally see those very differently, and I feel like they have been synonymous with one another from a a preaching perspective. And I I to be honest with you, when I hear a pastor talk about holiness, I sometimes cringe um because I I don't, and it's just not as straightforward as as what it sounds, but I don't think holiness is the same as standards of the church, but I do think that the standards of the church become natural as someone is growing in their holiness to God. And the reason I sort of want to have you talk about that more and maybe define it separately is because uh none of us can get holy in ourself. We can't clean up the outside and voila, we're holy. Holiness comes from the presence of God in our life, relationship with God in our life, and pursuit of God, right?

SPEAKER_02: 20:38

Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_01: 20:39

And and so I I think for people out there that really don't want to come back to our kind of church, this is where they stumble. So I I just maybe you could address that because I don't even I'll let you address it, then I'll if I go far afield, let me know.

SPEAKER_02: 21:03

I just, you know, I think kind of what you're indicating and what is that the damage that comes from standards applied, outward standards applied by men.

SPEAKER_01: 21:17

And I think before the inward has been done. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 21:20

So I would say this as a defense to preachers and pastors, we preach holiness. Because we need to be holy, right? Because it's an it's a it's not a it's not a question, it's an absolute of the scripture, it's a doctrine of the Bible. So this is an absolute holiness is an absolute necessity. Absolutely. Old Testament, New Testament, you could follow the theme all the way through.

SPEAKER_01: 21:42

So there's no right.

SPEAKER_02: 21:45

So this is what I would get to is this word holiness is used by preachers. This word standards is used by parishioners, in my mind. Okay. Okay. Preachers that I know, pe men that I love and respect, they never refer to things like standards, standards of holiness. They talk about holiness. They talk about holiness unto God because that is the literal kind of scriptural premise, is that you are separated. It's not just a separation from the world, it's a it's a separation unto God. That separation unto God brings a person to holiness. So when we talk about standards, generally speaking, you're talking when I hear this word and I hear hear it, uh, it has this kind of super negative connotation because oftentimes it's referred to by, like I said, parishioners, people who who are in a backslidden state, people who have kind of struggles, like, oh, is that a standard? Oh, this is a standard issue. People that are going away from God talk about standards. People that are close to God talk about being holy. You know what I mean? So I think it's it's a whole. I think it's a no, I'm saying, I'm saying when we're looking for a way out of things that are these external forces in a sense of what people say, oh, you need to do this, you need to, holiness is this, holiness is this. So when that doesn't come from within, it's a standard from without. Does that make sense? Holiness comes from the expectation expectation of the church. Right. So this is a perception, though, right? This is how people perceive holiness, is like um you go to a church and you see everybody dressed a certain way, you're like, oh, well, that's holiness. That be that can be that transitions from what people honestly express holiness as to a standard. Well, if you come here, you have to do this, you have to, it has to be like this. So those are those are the conversations of standards. Conversations of holiness are how do I become like Christ? How do I become closer to him? How do I walk more like him, talk more like him, look more like him, think more like him? How do I that's the conversation of holiness? To me, the conversation of standards is a conversational of minimalism. Like what's the minimum I have to do? So these are people in my mind when we talk about standards, this is these conversations are devolved conversations that meet begin to talk about what are what it what are my what are my requirements. I think once we get to that place as people or as saints, if it were looking for what do I have to do, we have missed it completely. This has to come holiness, true holiness, true holiness only comes from a life separated unto God saying, I want to please God. How do I be right what God wants me to be?

SPEAKER_06: 24:59

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 25:00

That's to me true holiness. Standards are when you're you're trying to measure up to people's perception of what you're supposed to do. But we doctrinal perception, Jerry.

SPEAKER_01: 25:14

You you have surely said under preachers who have interchanged holiness and dress code.

SPEAKER_02: 25:22

But it's problematic, yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_01: 25:24

That's what I'm talking about. Because I know your heart that holiness is like that relationship with God. Like when we love him, we want to please him. And and I think he naturally changes those things within us. But but uh, you know, I don't know. I don't know that people are wanting to know what's expected of them because they're wanting to ride the fence. I mean, I think there probably is that for sure. But I think the the hurt around this subject is when you have a preacher up there talking about holiness, and then they tell you how long your dress needs to be, and if it's at your knees or a hair above, then that's not holiness. And so there is this well, there's just been judgment. Sure. Judgment and the perception is if I'm if I don't look like that, then I'm in a backslidden state. And all of it is being measured by outward appearance, none of it's being measured by what's actually happening in the heart. And and if someone is beginning to change, maybe for people who grew up in this way and always live this way, and they start to change the way they look, to me, that should be a red flag of oh, what's happening in the heart, what's going on here that that this is all of a sudden changing. Whether they wear pants or dresses or not, it's it should be a red flag that there's something else happening. It's just manifesting on the outside, right? Right. But I I I'm talking about the people who had really tough pastors, had really, you know, I mean, I I see on Instagram, for example, and it sometimes it takes everything I have not to reply, but some cute little Pentecostal girl posted herself running on like a 5k in her little skirt and the leggings that were attached, and a full modest sweatshirt and her little running number. I thought was amazing. I thought, good for you. Someone commented underneath about the fact that they had leggings on, and that that, you know, and that that was sin, and that these leggings represented blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, and and I I have seen so much of that. So leggings, even under a skirt, is not tolerated by some apostolics. And that that's what I'm talking about is when when all of this gets really confused, because you're so right. I'm gonna say with the exception of two, um, has been because God has changed my heart. You know, God, I I really desire, maybe three, desire to please him, desire to love him. I want, I want to be pleasing to him because I love him. But I I'm also, you know, 59. I've had a lot of life. I see the emptiness of all of that. I don't need it anymore. I'm in a different place where I can let things go because it doesn't. I'm also healed in areas where I don't need all of that, right? But you got you got people that don't want to step foot in an apostolic church, even though the power of God is so real there and so palatable because they grew up with this harshness around outward appearance. And so how what would you say about that journey? Like as a pastor, are you know, I know you're not sitting up there judging them, but they don't always know that. So as a pastor, what do you see when they come back and w and what what I don't even know what question to ask. What is your heart around that?

SPEAKER_02: 29:51

Well, I I think I I'm probably gonna roll back a little bit in the more some of your earlier statements, and that is um You know, I have seen I have seen pastors preach you know tough very tough things. And um as far as what we would, you know, we would define in this this context as standards, and they at a conference or at somewhere they preach these kind of very stringent standards and the the crowd is up and rah, you know, and then that's very disenfranchising for people who are maybe not there yet, but here we are in a massive group of people and everybody's shouting. And if you're not measuring up to this level, so there's this kind of cultural aspect that builds up around a church, around certain styles of preachings, uh, you know, that that really kind of I think bring this to the surface. And I think in those situations, this conversation of holiness can become a standards conversation as a as opposed to a holiness unto God conversation, because you're in that and they're different. Yeah, different. And so that that that perception that someone is a holiness preacher, right? Becomes this very um dogmatic, um articulated position about every single thing in a person's lifestyle, how they approach, what they wear, how they wear, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, go on down the line. And I think it really strays from the conversation of um and unintentionally, right? Because all the people that I've seen in this kind of are in in in in people that I've come into contact with, people that are considered real holiness preachers, whatever, they do it from a pure heart. I think back in in in um that's good to hear.

SPEAKER_01: 31:52

That's good to hear. They really because it doesn't always feel that way. Uh-huh. No, it doesn't. It's not on the pew, it sounds harsh, no, it's unloving. I agree. I agree. And um I think part of why there's so many coming back with you, the love you have for the sh for the sheep is felt. We feel it when you even Sunday. I told him before we started this podcast, I, you know, Sunday he kind of preached about something he never does. But even then it was so loving. And and that was very clear. So I guess that's the difference is the perception of the person sitting on the pew. Yeah, you know, it it felt very harsh.

SPEAKER_02: 32:38

Yeah. And I think, and I think back just because of my experience, right, growing up, and I began as I went to Bible college, I began to realize there was these kind of what you referred to earlier, is kind of kind of different factions amongst us, people who are considered these are very holiness people, these are like middle of the row, these are like, oh, they're a little slipping, you know. And so we have these. And so you could you could have these the the perception, and I grew up under this perception is that these are holiness preachers, these are, you know, guys just trying to live for God, these are people like just about to slip off of a cliff, you know. And so I grew up under that perception. And and as I've gone on in my ministry, um, in fact, in the last just in the last few years as pastor, I've run into um a number of different pastors that I perceived very differently. Um and kind of hearing them out. And these are aged men. In fact, a lot of these conversations that I've had have been at funerals, uh, sadly. Uh, funerals for for for great men in our organization of who have gone on to their reward. And they might have been perceived this way or that way or what have you. But then at the end, at their funeral, you get to have these kind of conversations with people who were really affected by them, who are whose lives were changed by, oh, he was he was my pastor. He, he, he, you know, he really gave his heart to me. And my perception of that person was this dogmatic, grueling, you know, because that's the only view or glimpse I had of their life. But then I talked to somebody who was actually affected by them, and they begin to just expound upon the love that they had for me, the care and and the concern. I remember a story about uh probably one of the most dogmatic known people in my life that, and I didn't even know him, but I just know stories of you know, uh of this uh of this preacher named I terry out of I think the Bakersfield area and this kind of real stringent approach he had. But I ran into a guy, and uh, gosh, what was his name? He was at the funeral, and I knew him by proxy somehow, I can't remember. And then he came into contact and he told me he had come out from Icteri. He said, you know, I was I was um I was kicked out of his church five times. So this is this very dogmatic man, my perception. And his positions omacr to me came across hateful.

SPEAKER_01: 35:41

Well, he kicked someone out five times. Yeah, that's a bit scary.

SPEAKER_02: 35:44

And this was not an oddity for him. Like he would like, if you don't agree, if you're not lining up, boom, you're out. You're out. You make a mistake, boom, get on out of my church. I'm not gonna allow, I'll just fellowship you. And this man kind of bragged about two things. One is who his pastor was. Two, he bragged about being kicked out that many times. And I was just in my mind, I'm like going, what? And he said, But you know what? He said, This brother kicked me out. I already mentioned his name, I don't know why I'm saying this brother. Um, Ike Terry kicked me out, disfellowshipped me from the youth group, disfellowshipped me from the church five times. Every single time he disfellowshipped me. He said I was a mechanic. I was working at a I think a gas station or something as a mechanic. He said every time he disfellowshipped me, he would show up at my work and he would um he would work with me all day. He would sit at my job every day. He would show up to my job and stay with me hours at a time, talking to me, loving on me, caring for me. He said, and then eventually he would I I would be able to come back. He said, and then I would go, and I was just this wild guy, and I was just going, you know, I was trying to live for God, but I was making these stupid mistakes at the same time. And he said he could not allow that to infect the rest of so he would kick me out again. He said, and then he would show up my job. So that perspective of this man that I had already, yes, the perspective of this man, I've I've always said this man preached against fresh air. He was, you know, his perspective was hateful, his perspective was dogmatic, his and it was very polarizing. But I'm gonna tell you, in all these funerals and different people that I've talked to, that was not the man. Yeah, that was a miss, this was a perception of the man. And but this person um revealing that to me, I thought, whoa, I have, I, I, I'm, I have missed it. And this is the thing, and and I I think this is kind of what I want to get to is sometimes pastors preach things because it it they see the danger, right? They see the person whether that's a cultural danger, whether that's a problem for that person's life in particular, or a problem for the congregation. The people that he's been given to pastor. And so he might make this very uh you know, dogmatic or or or stringent requirement, because he sees that as something that he feels like if I don't take care of this, people will be damaged. If I don't take care of it, if I don't, if I don't hedge this right now, if I don't make a make a make a um a stand against this right now, this could impact others that are amongst the weakest among us, you know. And so I guess my perception of those things has changed quite a bit because I really um I really had a a change of heart in talking and having a conversation to some of these guys and guys that grew up under him. They said, man, he was hard, he was tough, but man, the love. And I think that's the difference is this thing only works. Holiness only works in love.

SPEAKER_04: 39:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 39:29

In love with Christ, in love with his things, in love with his will, in love with his purpose. And and so when you are in love with him, you want to do things that please him, right? And so it doesn't really matter, and I think this is where true holiness comes into play is I do things because I love him.

SPEAKER_06: 39:48

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 39:48

Not because he requires me. Right. Or that the church requires and so that the danger is the danger is you get the you get the requirement without the love. Right. Then it's a standard. Right. I think that's the I think that's the problem is people they look at, you know, they come into a church or they have a perception of what holiness already is, they come in and say, well, well, they they aren't gonna accept me, they aren't gonna love me. And if they you know, if that's the case, it it's I think it it's wrong. I don't think that that's the right perspective to have. I think if you come in and you just say, I I want to love God with your with an open heart, God will bring you to a place of holiness with him. Because if you love him, you're gonna start, you're just gonna naturally tend toward him. Um and so those are those are important uh ways in which I think you you people get a misconception of what um like what's I want to say like what's required. Again, that's the the worst wording to use. What is what is my requirement? Right, right. It's you you don't ask that when you're in love with somebody. What do I have to do to make sure that you love me? That's if I said that to my wife, that would be World War III. That's ridiculous. So the same thing would is true with Christ and in love with him, it's never a what do I have to?

SPEAKER_05: 41:18

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 41:19

But when we get to religion, it is a have to, right? People look at it like, what do I have to do to be a part of this church? What do I have to do to Yeah? I think that's a really, really terrible way to approach it, the subject.

SPEAKER_01: 41:31

Yeah. Well, I think too, people are trying to get to a place where they can believe that God loves them. Because I think that's why they ask, what do I have to do? Because they do feel apart from God. They have been out in the world and they they they are coming back with a place of I do, I am committed, I am ready, I want to do this, but I don't know how, I don't know what. And so I don't think they're always trying to hold on to things, but they're also they want to make sure that they're in right standing with God and that God loves them, because to embrace and actually know that I know that I know that I am his child and that he loves me takes a lot of confidence in God, and a new backslider coming home doesn't have that. No, and they so they they they need to know hey God's with me and everything's gonna be okay and he's gonna lead me however he leads me. Yeah, so I I don't think but at the same time, some things just don't make sense in those beginning stages. Yeah, even in a year stage, you know, and I I think people want to know, hey, is am I okay? Is this a sin? Is this you know there's so much that we do not know about God coming home from being a backslider? And so I anyways, I I think that my takeaway from this is there's a lot more behind the scenes that doesn't always get said if no one's ever asking the questions. And so for someone to be able to come and ask questions and that be okay, I think that's important because we do we do perceive the ministry as something different than what the reality probably is.

SPEAKER_02: 43:41

Yeah, I think so. Um I think you know, uh just as a fundamental rule of of coming back to the Lord is that when you come back, um, and and and you know, when you look at kind of like the old testament typology when um when this word holiness is first used, like it's it's when they're coming out of Egypt, when they're separated from everything that they had before, and they and they're then then you know through Leviticus and through uh you know the following text, there's there's a very descriptive process that he's giving to his people in the old testament about becoming holy, being separated unto the Lord, be ye holy, for I am holy. These things, the these concepts are reiterated and then they're defined in a lot of ways. And I think that's the the the um the tough thing is when we get into the new testament, is the same requirement is called. First Peter refers back to be ye holy for I am holy. So he's he's tying this old testament concept back to and he's saying, hey, look, what was back there is here too. There's there's a requirement here. There's a there's a there's a way in which you we need to approach God. Of course, we're dealing with a gentile nation, and there's you know, they're not under the law, and they're and all these other things. So how do we how do how does that play out in the the modern in our modern society in our in our in our day? How does that play out in our culture? I think that's the the bridge that most people have trouble with is they start to want to parse these things. But I I think probably the fundamental rule in in my mind is what was I doing when I was in the world? Right. You know, was I was I smoking? Man, I probably shouldn't smoke. You know, was I drinking? Probably shouldn't be drinking anymore. Those things that led me or kept me captivated or entertained in the world, those things that were a part of my person, when when God calls his people, he when he comes, brings them out of Egypt, just like he does with us in bringing us out of sin, a fundamental rule is just what was I doing before? I don't want to do that, right? That that was that was something that held me away from Christ. Whereas when we come into the New Testament, what brings me closer to him? Um I I think the if if if we kind of simplified some of that down, like what makes me draw closer to him?

SPEAKER_05: 46:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 46:20

Does um, you know, if if I can if I can play that out in my life, what does that look like? Um, if I separate myself from what I used to be, what does that look like in my life? Right. I think those those fundamental rules applied to your life bring you to a place that's closer to him because obviously what I was doing over there wasn't right. Right. Or I or I wouldn't, you know, or uh I wouldn't have been held captive there. But when he when he brings this out, it's pretty easy to me. It's a pretty easy discussion. What was I doing before? I don't want to do that, right? Right. I want to do something new. I want to, I want to get closer to God. So how do I get closer to him? I can read my, you know, I can read the word, I can, I can pray, I can, I can fast, I can put myself in a position of obedience unto Christ. Um, I can submit myself unto God and to man um in in those things. And that kind of like obedience to the spirit of God, obedience to the word of God, obedience, then uh that that's what the the scripture is talking about. That obedience to God's word, his will, and his purpose in your life and his spirit talking to you. Um, it's better than sacrifice. It bec it's not a challenge um to be holy, it's just being close to him.

SPEAKER_01: 47:43

Yeah, but that's that's a I agree with you, that's a heart posture that gets developed in the process. And backsliders coming back, I think they know one thing is that they're not okay, they're tired of what they're doing, and they and they're probably living under conviction, and the Lord is dealing with their hearts, and so they want they want to return to God and at least start off getting to know him again, you know, like the prodigal when he came back to his father. Um But I forgot what I was gonna say. I just I just lost my frame of mind. Anyways, sorry, I just lost my just lost my thought. I I just don't I just don't want the person out there that I I you you cannot be alive today without thinking and knowing that Jesus is gonna come back soon. That the prophecies are being fulfilled, we're seeing it in real time. Yeah, the mark of the beast is closer than it's ever been. And I and I really think it could get rolled out any minute, sure, you know, right after digital currency and digital ID is coming. But I think people out there that have had any footprint of of being in church is is knowing that. And they're they're starting to look at that, they're starting to get afraid of that, they're starting to realize, oh, I need to get my life right. Yeah. And I don't want the outside appearance of somebody to affect whether they walk into an apostolic church, yeah, you know, because that that can't that can't be the reason that they don't get their life right with the Lord.

SPEAKER_02: 49:37

I think it's such a beautiful moment, though, in our history, in where we're at as as a in the timeline of God. I don't know. I mean, we are closer now than we've ever been to the coming of the Lord. And I think you're right, the the person that grew up in church or even uh or maybe wasn't, but they they know enough of the word of the Lord, they've heard enough about it that they're like, wait a minute, this is close. Yeah, the things that they talked about are happening. The the the revelation of that um is a very clairvoyant call to to to those who are his. And I think a lot of people are opening their eyes, and I think that's what's so beautiful about this moment in in our in our lives is is that when you start to say, okay, the Lord is coming back soon. That's why I smile because it's such a when you realize that you look that you must compare and contrast now the Lord's coming back. Eternal weight of glory, eternal uh relationship with Christ, the the beauty of uh of being able to live with him forever, compared to where I'm at today. Right. You know what I mean? So whenever you grapple with these ideas that the Lord is coming back, you must also grapple with the idea of what am I holding on to in this world that's more valuable than this? Than eternity, yeah. Yeah, the pearl of great price. I've sell everything for that. And I think that is the essence really of holiness is like you make this decision, like you look at the world and say, ah, yeah, whatever that is, I don't want it. It's not, it's not to be compared with this, right? What with what I can have in Christ Jesus, what I can uh, how close can I be to him? It's no longer a discussion when you really compare and contrast these two things, when you see the coming of the Lord so soon, the reality and uh of and the reality of hell. The reality of hell, the reality that that um his word is true, his will is coming about, it that doesn't, you know, all these I just think it's such an eye-opening moment in our in our history, in our society, in our culture, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All the key phrases. I just think it's such an eye-opening moment for us. And I think as as a backslider, you know, um it's just it's it's not a it's not a tough choice in my mind when you compare these two. Right now, the devil can get his hooks in, and that's that's the the the the danger, obviously, is when you're in the world, the devil has his ways of just hooking you on things, not only addictive, but mentally and and just all the strongholds, yeah. All the all the strongholds that can really kind of hold a person down, and they can get to a place like I was talking to about about my buddy. Um, it's not only the hooks of addiction, it's the confines built around their own perception of what is required of them. Right. That standard, oh, I gotta do this, do this. Skip all that. As a pastor, that's what I say. We're not talking about that right now. What I want you to talk about is getting in that altar, getting close to God. Right. All this will make sense once you're close to God. Right. Once you're in a place where you're like, when you've made that contrast, like, oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01: 53:12

Yeah, heaven, hell, but not a difficult decision.

SPEAKER_02: 53:16

Streets of gold burning fire. I mean, it's it the contrast cannot be uh more poignant. So when you look at it like that, you're like, man, I don't what can give what can I give in exchange for him, what what can a man give in exchange for his soul? Right, right. So there is no cost, there is no um, there is no um requirement, yeah, um that that you should be intimidated by, because if I do it because I'm in love with Christ and I want to be close to Jesus, it's gonna be easy. Right. Jesus said, My yoke is easy and my burden is light. Right. And truly it is. And I think that's the thing is people put a burden upon themselves that's not required of the Lord.

SPEAKER_06: 54:03

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 54:03

They put a they put a uh and and and that danger is now I'm being yoked up with man's concepts.

SPEAKER_01: 54:14

But they have not yet crossed over to the decision yet. Backsliders are in that place of contemplation. So they haven't maybe found that place at the altar yet to where, oh man, I don't ever want to leave this. They're just in the the contemplation and they're looking at, you know, is this necessary? Is this is this needful? Um there's been a lot of judgment around the issue, right? So yeah, I think you're right. When someone is in the place that you just described, there is no, yeah, there, there is no question, right? Because you are back into that place with the Lord that is what makes us want to just pursue him and please him and love him. Yeah. But that that contemplation place about um coming back to an apostolic church, because I say on here a lot, like just come, just come. Yeah. Just come once, just come and walk in the door and see if you feel the presence of God. Yeah, you know, but I think so many are afraid to walk in the door because A, I think they've gonna feel the presence of God and they know that. And B, they're not ready to kind of take all the other steps. And and I would say, I so I'm gonna pause here and talk about our first conversation we had, because I wasn't either. And and the the things that I've given up in my life today have been because God, because God has showed me some things, except for like the three that I'm gonna mention. But I think I want to remove the barrier in that contemplation moment for people. And I think you did it so beautifully with me, you know, um when I came back. Do you remember what I said when I called you?

SPEAKER_02: 56:14

Uh yes, kind of.

SPEAKER_01: 56:18

Okay, tell me.

SPEAKER_02: 56:20

The way I remember it was you said, I I want to come back to church. I want to come back to your church. I know I'm kind of not where you would describe as as the place I need to be. Um and my response was yeah, cat Kat, if if you I want you to come back, I want you to come back to my church. I don't want those things to hold you back, but um, I don't but if you have already a made-up mind, this is just the way I'm going to be, I'm not gonna change, this is who I am, and that's I said, well then that's not gonna be a good fit, something to that effect. But I said, if you'll come and you just remain open to God, if God requires more of you, if he asks more of you, if you begin to if he begins to ask you to change, I'm just asking you to be open to that. That was my uh that's the way I remembered.

SPEAKER_01: 57:12

Is that yeah, fairly, yeah. But uh for the audience, so you guys don't know me unless you've seen my Facebook past pictures, but um by the time I think I asked, I'd already cleaned up my modesty stuff. I I had already cleaned up how I presented my body to the world. I wasn't, you know, for me, for where I was, right? Um, but I still wore big hoop earrings, I had a thumb ring on my on my right thumb, and I wore jewelry. I love jewelry. I used to wear bracelets up my arm and you know, I was very fashionable, I would think, you know, and I had my own little style. And so when I called my pastor, I said, I'd like to come, you know, but I want to come how I am. Would you accept me how I am? You know, because I also told him that in the past, when I had given my life back to God, I I did do all the outward things. I I joined the choir, I cleaned up everything that was expected of an apostolic Pentecostal girl, and I still never found my place. And more importantly, I didn't have answers for people as to why I did what I did. And it was very important for me to know the reasons why we do what we do. And so you said, no, Kathy, just come. But I would ask that you remain open to God, to let God lead you. And so, you know, because that was and and it is hard going. It was hard for me. I think I probably took my earrings out on church days, but it was hard for me to go and just stay true to myself for the reasons that I felt was important and let God kind of do that work. And so, um, so so my pastor said, yes, come, you know, just stay open to God. But he, I think you heard my heart. You knew I wanted the things of the Lord, I wanted to be part of what God was doing, and I knew because I'd been many years at other churches, um, the power of God was at our church, and that's what I was after. I wanted the presence of God. Um, and so you you opened that door for me, and I felt very loved and and very seen in that moment to just come and be, you know, and um I think I also told you one of the reasons I needed to find a church and have a pastor. Is because in my field of work I've had uh some really scary experiences spiritually with people. I've been threatened um physically with murder with clients, and I understood enough spiritually speaking that I needed a covering. And at the time, I didn't have a pastor that I felt could cover me spiritually. And as a single woman, um, I knew that I needed that. And so I asked you if you would be my covering. Do you remember what you said to me?

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:38

Not exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:40

You said, Well, Kath, the first covering is hair, and he and you said, I will I'll be your covering, I'll be your pastor. But you know, the Bible says hair is your covering, and so you very gently talked to me about hair. And at the time I used to cut my bangs. Um, I cut my hair a lot. I I always wanted it long because I never got to have long hair, so I I did do that, but I stopped cutting my bangs from that moment on, um for that reason, you know. And um, so anyways, and you look good. Thank you. It's been an adjustment because I'd only seen myself for so long. But you know, the hair thing, um to be honest with the people watching, um once I got in trouble for cutting my hair when I was a kid, my mother made me memorize a whole 11th chapter of 1 Corinthians on hair. Like I I was grounded till I memorized that whole thing. It took months. I I will say I've studied it out a lot. I still don't have the the complete revelation, but I do do it on obedience unto my pastor because um I feel like it's needful, you know, and I and I did ask, so we went to Israel, and um I I did I was able to see some things being in Israel about the holiness standard, the modesty, I will say, standard and the hair thing. And I did read Sister Haney's book on guarding the supernatural, which was all about hair. Um, I still struggle with that in myself, you know, and I am praying, and not that I struggle to want to cut my hair, that's not it. I struggle with um wanting to be fully persuaded in the reason because the way the Hebrew interprets script the way it all is interpreted in original language is to me a little different, but it doesn't matter. Um, to me, that doesn't matter. I trim my dead ends because if I don't, my hair would be up to here and it breaks. So, in some ways, maybe I'm not being completely obedient in the trimming of my dead ends, but I really endeavor. Um, I don't cut my hair anymore for fashion in any way or anything like that. I'm really, I'm really trying uh to gain some revelation in that area. Um, but I think I don't know if you want to comment on any of that, maybe not where I'm concerned or where I'm concerned, I don't care. But I think any kind of insight you could offer people watching about that particular thing would be helpful.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:47

Yeah, I um, you know, it the hair issue obviously has has been is one of those very prominent ones amongst us because you you know, people look and they say, Oh, yeah, all your ladies have long hair. Um and um the text obviously referring to uncut hair um has always been a prominent prominent factor when when when when he's when he when Paul's writing about these things and and kind of delineating and not that hair is the essence and the essential center point of uh of that text, although it it is the the tool he uses to pr show the headship and authority um of God. God is the head, man, and then the woman, and that each each of those covers. So God covers man, man covers, and God gave the woman her hair for her covering, and that covering is symbolic of you know the covering over the mercy seed and all and all these beautiful, beautiful analogous things that go back to the old testament. And so um it's become something that's really delineated who we are as Pentecostals is the hair issue. Um, and because the scripture refers to it, you know, in that in that way, and and it and it talks about that headship bringing um authority, um, bringing right alignment with with Christ, and also the benefit of of having um what what Paul refers to is power with the angels. Um and so there's something very even if we don't understand it in its totality, there's something powerful there, and we realize that. And I think you made mention of it is you know, you've been to a lot of churches, and I think we had that conversation when when you were coming back, and and you you had mentioned, um, I want to come back where the power of God is, I want to feel his presence like I know he is, that depth. And I think I asked you at that time, I said, Well, well, Kat, what's the difference? Because I know you've been to churches that no longer find that as a position to take. Like, well, you know, you can do whatever you want. You can cut your hair, you can wear whatever you want, you can do just come and be and don't make any changes to your life. It's not that they're wanting to go away from God. I think ultimately they just want to lower the barrier so more people can come. I think it's done out of a pure heart. People a lot of times lose their standards because they think the standards are holding people back. Right, right. These these kind of doctrinal positions are holding people back. And so, in a from a pastor's heart, they say, Well, if there's something in the way that I can help, I'm gonna look, I'm gonna get that out of the way so that that more people can come, more people can experience. What ends up happening is those barriers that God builds, those headships, those authorities, those uh that that that structure that the Lord put in place, once removed, it no longer has the same effect. And you can definitely sense it, you can definitely feel it. If you're spiritually attuned, you can walk into a church and say, you know, the spirit of God's here, but it's not that deep. Right. Right. And then you go into other places um who definitely kind of are a lot more holiness-oriented and you can feel a depth. And so you can tell the difference between, you know, from my experience. This is just, you know, from my experience, you can go into a church and you can tell if they're holiness people or not. Um, because there's something very beautiful and something that God really stands with when it comes to holiness. And I think, like I said, there's so much historical um textual evidence to this and an absolute call from the scripture to be holy. So whatever that is, we need to have it. Whatever it looks like. Whatever it looks like. You need it's not it's not a maybe or uh it would be a good idea, it's an absolute from the scriptural uh position. And so what does that look like? I think those are those are the hard discussions, but um it it it gets to where if you if if you get into a congregation that has this perspective of holiness, like I want to be close to God, what do I need to do? What can I do to be close to him? Um, when you get around people like that, there's something very real about that. There's a very, there's something very um the spirit of God seems so real, so depth. So because I think God just loves that sacrifice, that that obedient sacrifice unto him. There's something that's just so desirous of him. When people are willing to lay down themselves to glorify him, there's something just amazing that happens in the spirit realm.

SPEAKER_05: 1:08:48

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:49

Because it's no longer about self, me, mine, my way, my fashion, my style, my my person, my persona, my all that gets all to glorify him. And that is being created. That's a person saying, I want to be created in the image of God, recreated, reformed in the image of him. And so I think that is kind of the essence of holiness is being created in his image. Right. And getting back to that place where we are in his image. When we're in the world, we're doing everything almost to diminish that image. Right. In fact, you look at, you know, culturally, and I would say the ultimate play of Satan is to damage the image of God.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:30

Identity is the I think identity issues are the number one mental health issue, how it plays out in every every piece of mental health. I feel like it always comes back to an identity piece because shame is about identity. So, so yeah, everything comes back, I think, to identity. All the eating disorders, all the all the anxiousness, depression. It's all rooted in rejection and abandonment are the core issues that create personality disorders, and most of what mental health issues are rooted in. All that's identity.

SPEAKER_02: 1:10:11

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:11

All of it. All of it is an absence of love.

SPEAKER_02: 1:10:14

Well, I've never heard it like that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:16

That's interesting because I I think And you're right, Satan does come to steal that from us.

SPEAKER_02: 1:10:22

So that's the best way to absolutely destroy somebody, is right, you you tear them down, you break what they think their image is. Right. So if they're popular, if they're cool, or whatever, or whatever you and you want to destroy them, you're gonna break that image. And when you know, in the Garden of Eden, right, Adam and Eve are created in the image of God, and and God reaffirms that constantly, right? Uh that you're made in the image of God. And so anything that can destroy that image is what the devil is after, to destroy what God has created. So, I mean, you see it in the in all the different, you know, sin community, if you will, communities. That's a stupid way to say it, but sin changes the look, right? If you see somebody who's hooked on methamphetamine, it's unmistakable. Right. And if you've ever used meth and and and dealt with that, you see it. Oh, you know, it's unmistakable. If somebody doesn't see that, they might not recognize that, but the identity is so clear. Or whatever your drug of choice, or whatever um, whatever sin that really can get a grip on somebody's life, it's unmistakable. Once you lust or or whatever, when you see it on somebody, you can't unsee it. It's there. I mean, there's an image that is created in that person by whatever afflicts them, whatever bondage they're in, that image is created in them. And that's why I think it's so beautiful when a person comes back to God, like that, that uh the story in in Jeremiah where Israel, uh Israel is they've been destroyed by slavery and the image he the Lord says, Come back to me. I'm gonna put you, I'm the potter. Let me put that lump of clay back on. He says, Look, watch, can't I redo it? Look at look at the potter, how he he that that vessel was marred in his hands. It was messed up, it it got it got sidetracked, it didn't take the right form. But I'm gonna take that lump, I'm gonna rework that lump. I'm put let me let me be that to you, Israel. God, God was saying in Jeremiah. And I think that that same thing is true of the backslider, is that's what all that God is saying. He says, Look, you're just a let me let me put my hands back on you, let me re-mold you, let me reshape you. The image that sometimes the world puts on us, even religion can put on us, is a destruct, can be a horribly marred thing.

SPEAKER_05: 1:12:51

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:52

Religion can put a marred perspective on us in our lives.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:57

Un you know, just and religion is is anything that we do in the church culture that is not coming from a pure heart, that's not coming from relationship with with the Lord, right? If I if I cleaned up tomorrow, took all my makeup off and did all the things, you know, just to be Pentecostal and to be more accepted, it would not be coming from the right heart posture. And eventually I'd probably resent that, which you know, before it just didn't work. I have to make sure it's coming from the right place to where it can last because it never lasted before, you know, because it was just what I thought I was supposed to do. It was religion, it was not doing it unto man and not unto God. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:13:45

So those, yeah, those are that I mean, if we if we're doing anything like this, right, right, our it is going to fail. If we do it unto man because someone requires it of me or somebody asks it of me. But when the Lord steps in and says, hey, and he begins to convict us for things that we're doing or our directions we're taking, or even positions in our mind and and and thought that we're that we're utilizing, if he steps in and asks us different, it it's way different. Yeah, I mean just it just changed it. And you're willing to change, right? And it happens, it's very easy. It's very easy.

SPEAKER_01: 1:14:20

Yeah, super easy.

SPEAKER_02: 1:14:21

And it's it's it those things fall off of us like you know, it just they're they're shucked off of us real quickly when it's to God. Yeah, when it's to man, it's it you're right. I think it builds resist resentment, resistance uh to to religion.

SPEAKER_01: 1:14:40

Um well, there's an absence of trust there, you know, that you don't you don't trust. And if you can't trust, yeah, it's super hard to follow somebody if you don't trust them.

SPEAKER_02: 1:14:51

Yeah, I think culturally as as Pentecostals, I think a lot in times past we have this kind of idea that just whatever, you know, whatever pastor would say, I have to just do these things. And I think um that was a little, not a little, it was very damaging to a lot of people because that's all they saw. That's all and that I think partially was a cultural thing. Like during the 40s, 50s, 60s, it was just do because I said do. Right. Whereas when I went to Bible college, um, and and really we we talked about these things as I that's not that wasn't the perspective of our professors, Dr. Seagraves and Crownover and and uh Brother Garner, and it was a passion for the things of God. If I'm passionate about God, I want him, I desire him, I'm gonna follow him.

SPEAKER_05: 1:15:44

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:44

And if he says jump, I'm gonna say how high, not because man requires this, but because the Lord asks me.

SPEAKER_06: 1:15:50

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:51

Something very different when the Lord asks me. And so um, and I think sometimes people because they don't cultivate a relationship where God talks to them, they just have a church relationship, then then you have the problem that we're really kind of referring to, and that is a standard problem, because now it's not God talking to me. The the church, the church requires this. My pastor said so. Da, da, da, da, da. And then it it's never gonna hold weight, it's never gonna hold uh strength in your life if you're doing it as unto man. But if you're doing it as unto God, man, what you know, like I said, how far do you want me to go? I'll go as far as you want, as long as I'm doing it to God. Right. If I'm doing it to man and it's just because man requires it of me, I could be a diligent soldier, I could do what somebody asks of me as long as I'm in their presence.

SPEAKER_06: 1:16:48

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:16:49

As soon as I'm out of their presence, I'm doing my own thing. Right. Right. And so that's the difference. True holiness is it becomes an I I am who I am who God wants me to be.

SPEAKER_06: 1:16:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:17:00

Instead of I am what my church requires of me or my religion requires of me. Holiness comes from within to without and it it's it's beautiful when you've seen it. And when you see it, it's it it's the most gorgeous thing ever. It's the ugliest thing ever, too. If it's if it's outward, right, it's not inward. Not inward, not inward.

SPEAKER_01: 1:17:24

Yeah, so I mean I think that's when I remember going to Bible college, uh CLC. I didn't go to Bible college, but CLC. And I remember seeing girls with real gaudy jeweled-up watches and skin tight clothes. And I was thinking, because I was always looking at the heart, what I saw was the heart behind it, and the two didn't compute for me. And I'm like, it's the same. Yeah, that this is the same, it doesn't matter. And and that was part of when I started to not um you saw the hypocrisy, yeah. I saw the hypocrisy, and again, I was just trying, Lord, what does all this mean? I was just trying to follow the Lord, yeah. But anyways, that ended up taking me down a whole different road because I started going less. When I started figuring out I didn't fit in, I was always at church on Sundays, but I stopped trying to be involved in the culture because I did see the hypocrisy. But in my own self also, I went a whole different direction because again, my wound was needing to belong someplace. And and I think um I don't know the stories of backsliders out there that haven't come back. I know there's deep, deep wounds. Um, we're having this discussion so that how you look on the outside doesn't have to be a barrier to when you come back, you know, that you could just come back because I think I'm glad you said that about the pastors, that they are approaching it from the right perspective. But when we are wounded, we're gonna hear it from a wounded lens, and we're gonna hear it as talking to us and targeted to us, you know, and um, and that's just not always the case, probably actually rarely the case that it's specific towards one person. So I want to talk a little bit about the things that I've given up and maybe the conversations that we've had. So for anyone out there that doesn't know me, I have come from a lifestyle of fitness, very involved in the fitness community, and the gym has been a big part of my life for a long time, which is why I walked around half-necked most of the time. And um, so when so that was just one of the pieces. The other piece is I hated dresses. Like, I don't think I even had a dress in my closet when I came back, maybe one or two, uh, because I was so uncomfortable wearing a dress, old, very ultra uncomfortable because it really triggered me to how I was raised, and I wanted nothing to do with that. And um so one of you know what happened for me is tell a little bit about my story, is I started coming back to our church, and the Lord had been dealing with me, and I already knew the world had nothing for me. I think I had I I feel like I had a a really good taste of the world in lots of ways that that no amount of money, no amount of prestige, no amount of anything was gonna fill the void that only God could fill. So I'd been coming. Um and then I went to Israel with uh Christian Life Center. And before I went to Israel, I sat down with my pastor because again, I didn't have many dresses, and I hadn't really found my place. I hadn't really found my place in myself to be comfortable in my own skin. I couldn't imagine going to Israel and wear a dress every day when it was winter time, and I just could I didn't I didn't know. I like in my mind conceptually, I could not figure out how am I gonna dress, wear a dress for 10 days. And I was bringing friends that weren't Pentecostal at all, you know, so I probably had a little caretaking going on there. Um but do you remember when I came to you to talk to you about that?

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:48

A little bit, yeah. I don't remember all the specifics.

SPEAKER_01: 1:21:51

So I knew I was going with the Haneys, I knew I was gonna be going with CLC, and I I knew probably everyone else was gonna be wearing dresses. But it was very important to me to walk this out with God vertically and to be true to myself. And if I would have worn a dress on that trip instead of um leggings and sports clothes that I ended up wearing, I f I feel like I would have been in a little bit of jeopardy within myself because I would have been doing it all for the wrong reasons. But you told me, Kath, you wear what you you wear what you're gonna wear. You're probably gonna be more noticeable because you don't fit in, because you're not wearing a dress, you're probably gonna stand out even more, and I don't think that's what you really want to do. Um, but you you know, you do what you feel you need to do, essentially. Do you remember that?

SPEAKER_02: 1:22:54

Yeah, vaguely.

SPEAKER_01: 1:22:56

Yeah. Um, but I but I did talk to my pastor because my heart was not to be disrespectful. I didn't want to be disrespectful. I didn't want to go having the liberty that I had in the Lord because me and the Lord I felt we're in a good place. I wasn't trying to go, you know, do whatever I wanted in a certain way and then be with all these Christians. I was never trying to be respectful, but I was really, really trying to stay true to myself and let God do that work in me over time. And and going to Israel helped me a great deal in that for the first time I really had a different lens to see modesty through. Uh bigger than just a Pentecostal environment. Uh because I just could never get it. But probably because I was only looking at myself and my own little world, I didn't, I didn't notice if people noticed me. I didn't care if people noticed. I just it wasn't important to me, so I wasn't paying attention to it. But when I when I went to Israel, I got to see how the other women dressed. And I got to see how they, you know, didn't wear makeup. Other women like our people. It is Jewish people, yeah, is Israeli ladies and and even the Islamic community, because we were in sometimes the Islamic communities, they actually understood it from a very different perspective, but from a religious perspective also in following their custom and culture and holiness standards. And so I came out of that trip really thinking, wow, that makes so much sense. It gave me a bigger context to look at than just the way that I was raised. And I could see from a broader lens what it really meant in other cultures. And Pentecostalism is, I mean, everything that we believe from the Bible came from Israel because that's where Jesus came from, right? That's where everything was written. So that helped a lot. And then um I came to you about, I think I came to you to ask about the pants and dresses issue. Probably a couple years. And the reason I did that is because when I came back from Israel, um, I was very moved on that trip in many ways, but I went to landmark right after that. And as I was sitting in landmark, I went by myself. The Lord just really began to speak to me, and everything had come full circle for me, I think. That one night in landmark, it was a Tuesday night, and but the Lord began to speak to me, and he told me, I have called you to this. And I didn't know what the this was other than our apostolic movement, to the United Pentecostal movement, to the holiness standards that I always viewed. I felt like the Lord was saying, This is what I've called you to. And in the weeks and months after, I just said, Yes, okay, because I want him. I've only ever wanted him. But I had to unpack all the wounds from childhood and all of the religiosity that came with it, and just be able to get a clear picture of the Lord. So when I came back, I asked you about the the pants thing. Um, because I I was obviously still just trying to be myself and I didn't have a really good reason not to wear them. Um, do you remember what you said to me then?

SPEAKER_02: 1:27:12

I think I do because it's it goes back kind of a little bit to our conversation before, and that is image. Um when when you when you look at someone who is uh you know, like um trying to change their gender or whatever, the first thing they do is some very noticeable things that is clearly the opposite of what they are. So if they're a woman and they want to be like a man, the first thing they do is cut their hair and put on pants. It's unmistakable, it's every single time, and vice versa. Man wants to look like a woman, first thing he does grows his hair out in some weird way and tries to put a dress on, which just doesn't work. And so, but it's so much a part of the the identity of a man as a man and a woman as a woman that you automatically they automatically know, even unconsciously, they're saying this is the right image. I always I thought that was a fascinating thing. I think that's what I related to you is there's just something about it. There's something very feminine, there's something very um modest about uh a woman who wears a dress and it is very feminine, it's very in the image of I think what what God wants, desires.

SPEAKER_01: 1:28:37

Yeah. And that that helped because I had chosen to stay and remain in our apostolic movement, and I knew, okay, now that I made this decision, I felt like God clearly told me this is what He's called me to, this is what I was born into, this is my heritage. I needed then to be able to understand. And so we were we were meeting for lunch that day to have some of these conversations. And as I drove up, I had seen a trans man dressed as a woman in a dress. I mean, like literally, I parked my car and it walked right in back of me. And so that image was just so reticent in that moment. And I thought, okay, I could live with that. That is that is something that I can take with me and then be able to give an answer to someone else, you know, about um why I choose to wear a dress. And, you know, he knows all this because we've had all these conversations, but I wanted to do this podcast for anyone out there who struggles with this. Like that struggle is real, you know, and it is so important for us to be comfortable in our skin because we're so. Vulnerable on the inside. I had someone tell me once, and it really hit me between the eyes. He was a very close friend of mine, and he just said it so matter-of-factly. He said, Kathy, you built such a perfect image on the outside that no one can get close to you. It's the mask you wear. And I don't think he understood the depth of that truth. But sometimes how we do look is a mask that we wear. And it certainly had become the mask that I wore because I identified more in how I present myself because I'm really afraid of being hurt, you know? And so we can often see how someone looks on the outside is weaponry, is armor from people being able to see us on the inside. And so learning to find myself into who I am as an apostolic, you know, is so different. And and and my pastor uh was very gentle and and really helped me. You said you you will find your way, you'll find how you fit, and you'll find your own style again. And it it has taken some time.

SPEAKER_02: 1:31:26

I remember how I remember that conversation. You're like, I just don't know how I would look because you were have always been very focused on fashion and you always have dressed, you know, like I said, always up to date and and looked always looked good. Um, I said, you'll figure it out, you'll figure out a style that's unique and your own. And I think you've done that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:31:47

Yeah, yeah. And you know, in that conversation that day, back to the jewelry thing, I used to wear this thumb ring, and you reached over and pulled at it, and you go, What does this mean? You said, What does this mean? And and you know, it really meant nothing. There was no significance to it, there was no memory attached to it, it would had not been given as a gift. And I I thought, okay, so I took it off that day. I never put it back on. But I I was intrigued by the things that you notice, you know, and I know you're very prophetic, so I I think of that too often, you know, nothing gets by you. And so when you comment on something, I pay attention to giving me a lot more credit. Well, well, I do know that about you, but um anyways, I just I wanted to have this conversation because you know, in total transparency for me, especially for people from our church that watch this podcast. Um I'm working on this stuff, and and you know that we talk frequently about stuff. Um, but it is a process, you know, and and I whatever choices that get made in my life, I want to make sure that I have really clear and good reasons for them. Because if I'm honest, I I don't think everything that we well, you're gonna have to chime in here. There is a difference between salvation issues and standard issues, and that's the argument most people make is this isn't gonna take you to hell. This isn't a heaven or hell issue. So a lot of these things are not heaven and hell issues, but what I did notice when I ultimately said is there's such a marked difference in an apostolic church when people do kind of abide by those holiness standards that have been set forth and the power of God that moves in that environment. And there's to me, I can't deny that because I have gone to other churches and felt the presence of the Lord, but it isn't the same. The depth seems to be absent. And I and I think there's really something to it to it, but um yeah, yeah. I guess that was the statement.

SPEAKER_02: 1:34:36

Yeah, a good statement. Yeah, I think but I I I would uh agree with you. I think there's there's there is a depth and it's unmistakable. And I and I was so thankful, like when you were when God had moved on you and you're coming back and you could just see your struggle. And I love that you know, you don't do anything until you've thought it out. And I think because you feel like you also have to are be able not only to give an answer, not only for uh in your own self, but to others. So this is why I do what I do. This is why I love that because you're never you're not in a hurry. I try to make sure that you're not in a hurry um as a pastor, because I want every decision you make to be like this comes, this has come not only be from the word from God speaking to me, but also good teaching and direction. Um, I don't want it to be like like we've talked about. I I'm trying to prevent exactly what I the damage that we've seen, right? Because it has affected a great many people in our in our organization who grew up and love God and care and have depth uh you know in in relationship. They've experienced Jesus on such an amazing level. And then these things destroy because, like you talked about, I think early on, when you kind of you put all you got all involved and you did all the outward expression, um, and then you saw people who were not who were following some sort of guidelines and standards, and yet their heart was it was not even real, is not genuine. But from outwardly, they looked right, but inwardly, it's it was exactly what Jesus was, in my mind, exactly what Jesus was talking about when he looked at the Pharisees. He said, You're whited sepulchers, you have this beautiful outward appearance, but inside is death, is dead men's bones. And that's how damaging holiness standards are, um when they're not genuine, they're just an outward expression. It's it's it's pretty on the outside, it it's following the rules or whatever, but it has no it has no validity. And when it when you see it, the hypocrisy of it is destroying, it destroys everything it touches. When I came back to God, and I'll just relate this quick story to you, is when I came back to God, the first time God spoke to me was about a girl, and I was in a I was in a a class, and this this girl walked in. I was single, I was of age, I was, you know, and this this girl walked in, and she was uh Betty Betty Pentecost. She was, I mean, she had everything dialed in, head to toe. Her hair was long or something like that. Her hair, yeah, hair uncut, links, and all this other, everything was in its place. It looked picture perfect, right? And I looked and said, Oh, this, you know, that girl's Pentecostal. She's, you know, like, and and that was such a contrast from the world that I thought, this is beautiful. And immediately the Lord spoke to me. He said, Don't even go close to her. And I thought to my and I remember just kind of sitting back in my chair going, one, God just spoke to me. Two, why is he, you know, why why is this? And that was probably the best direction God had ever given me in my life. And it was very clear, very poignant, and it not to impugn that person, they were going through their own struggles at the time and what have you. But God looked down the road in my life and said, if you get close to her, she will destroy you. And it and um and it all of that was true, all of that was true, and and I think about the different things and how that God led me to my wife. Um, and and um, and how it how that the beauty of holiness was so genuine in her. Um, I saw her from a long way off, and the Lord said, you know, there's your wife. And I saw, I mean, she was way, she had to be 200 yards away from me down in the altar praying. I think I was in it was at Bakersfield at youth convention. I saw her way down in the corner, just off by herself, just worshiping God, praising God. I thought, who in the world? And God said, There's your wife. And I said, Who is this? And so I made my way down to where she was at. I sat, you know, five, six rows back off the off the front after service was over, and I thought, I better find out who this is. She turns around and it's it's a girl I knew from from junior camp growing up. She was I I met her when I was I think I was 11 and she was 10. So it's like I knew her all along, and um, but that that reality of true holiness was seen in her. She wasn't, she didn't, she was off by herself. She had care. Yeah, she didn't care. Everybody else is like packing their stuff up. Oh, where where are we gonna go? We're gonna go to Woody's, we're gonna go here, who's who's going with who? Everyone else is having those discussions. They're out in the lobby, they're they're already gone, and she's just down there worshiping. And the Lord said, That's your wife, that's who you need in your life. That's what you're um, that's what I need from you for you. That's gonna help you. And uh he's I mean, and uh, I was obedient to that, and I and I, you know, of course she was gorgeous too, but yeah, which also made it super easy. Um, but the the the two met, right? The the idea of holiness and genuineness was real. It was not it was not put on, it was not it, it was not just some outward thing that she was trying to measure up with. Yeah, it was real, it was it came from here. And and even though in my early attempts to dissuade her from certain positions of holiness, she was she would resist to the core because that's not who she was, right? Um, even in some of you know, so that strength that she had uh a woman that takes that kind of strength position where her covering, her head um was solid, right? Um her dad raised her like that. Her she was submitted to her dad, then she was submitted uh to the word of God. And then as a husband, she submitted unto me. That headship and authority fell directly. God knew I needed that without her strength. I I would never be even close to where I'm at. I would have been destroyed very, very, very easily. But God knows how to bring that right strength into your life, and um He did. So it was in such contrast her her life was in such contrast to where God spoke to me.

SPEAKER_06: 1:41:44

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:41:45

And so that's that whole concept of the whited sepulchre and and Jesus coming, you know, that the other story of Jesus coming to the the fig tree, right? And he comes to this tree, it looks like it should have fruit. And then he comes to it and has nothing on it. He was so he cursed, he cursed it. That's very strong, and it withered away directly. And and and I think that's such a stark reality that in in living for God, in trying to be holy, it cannot be an outward expression, it cannot be just uh something put on. It better bear fruit, it better have a 100% fruit involved, right? Um, and I think that's the true challenge of holiness is not just not just having the outside right, but having the inside right that produces the fruit of the outside.

SPEAKER_06: 1:42:43

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:42:43

That's the challenge. And I think um when that's done correctly, it's so so gorgeous, it's so beautiful. And uh it destroys the yoke. Um it destroys the yoke of of people who are this is what I mean by destroying the yoke. So like there in our society, in our world, there is perversion, lust is like a yoke on people, on men especially. So when um when a woman walks in true holiness, it he cannot, it's almost like uh spiritually, there's like a block. He cannot look at a woman who's walking in true holiness and be lustful and have he's like, Oh, that girl's different, and he moves on. Yeah, it's a it's a it's a it's a barrier, it's a it's a it's a spiritual barrier. It's a holiness barrier that's built around her. He he it is so much he that man wants to peer into her soul, into her person. He can't do it. There's a border. There's a whole there's a there's a there's a this this is a shrouding of her life, and it's accepted and like understood spiritually and move on. Yeah, because there's um but the reality of that is uh is to me very very seen. Now this is what the is anyway, I think this is the attempt of what Islam tries to do, but without the spirit, right? And without the spirit, it just gets more and more and more and more and more. My dad was in Kuwait and uh and Iraq and different deployments and stuff like that, and he talked about one of the things he talked about was being there and seeing women in burkas. And he said, you know, they're they are covert, man, head to toe. He said, but what was in their eyes is the same as every American girl. Yeah, you can see it because you can't and that the Bible says eyes are the windows.

SPEAKER_01: 1:44:52

See the stall?

SPEAKER_02: 1:44:53

He said there the difference was so like the outward, sure. But inside, you see those eyes, they there the eyes were saying a completely different thing. And he says, People are people. Yeah. And that's and I I thought that was so profound. And then him seeing that and expressing that, I thought that was that was so interesting because it it is as much as as much as much as Islam and other uh religions realize the importance and the effect it has, if it doesn't come from the heart, it's still invalid. Right. Right doesn't matter how many things you got covered, yeah. Uh it it it uh you can't replace true holiness that comes from the inside, the fruit of it. Yeah, it can't, it will always come out.

SPEAKER_01: 1:45:43

Right. Yeah. And I will say too, for just using your analogy, everyone who is single is looking for a mate, a spouse. And you know, the best way to guard against the wrong one is by being the right one yourself. Because like if you are living holy, if there is that barrier there, then that automatically checks someone else's intentions, you know, and and you don't want someone who doesn't have real genuine intentions for longevity and and mostly for God. So so that's huge, I think, too.

SPEAKER_02: 1:46:20

Yeah, I think that's the danger, right? So like single people coming back um to God and and realizing the relationships that they built in the world were based on a bunch of nonsense and stuff that just fades away over time.

SPEAKER_01: 1:46:34

Well, just based on lust and sex and all that.

SPEAKER_02: 1:46:37

I didn't want to say it like that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:46:38

Well, I'll say it for you because I mean this is where people are living.

SPEAKER_02: 1:46:42

Yeah, yeah. 100%. And that's what I think is so awesome is you see these people starting to come back to God and they're going, everything that I used to think about this, this, and this, all the things that I thought I needed in the world, those are really invalid. Those are really things that I don't want, actually. I realize that those are very shallow um experiences. Those are very shallow. Um, there's a very brief bit of enjoyment in this or that or what have you, right? And so coming back to God, you start to say, Lord, what is it that you want? What kind of person can you put in my life that will be my strength in my time of weakness, that will be my uh better half, you know. Right, right. Um where is that person? Who is that person? And I think, like you said, I think it's such a powerful thing is if you want to want that person, you must also be that person, right? You want to be the the um, and and I feel like if we're patient enough, God will bring us to the right person in in in his timing. Yeah, and really that's all you want. You don't want it in your timing because your timing already is messed up, obviously. Right. But relying on his timing in that and being patient in that, being contented in that. I know I've seen you over many years and and you've had different relationships, but I've seen you also just dig your heels in in being single and saying, I'm just I'm in love with Jesus, I'm going to be in love with Jesus, I'm not going anywhere. And I've seen that in you. I've I've I just want you to know how proud of you I am in that is because it it's very real. Like, um, it's not an outward, it's not an you know, something you're just saying and you're like secretly searching for this man, right? If that were the case, I don't uh you could you could have uh a hundred suitors knocking down your door. I have no no no uh other thought, but you're refusing that position because you're in love with him, and I think that is a beautiful thing to witness and see. Um, and I think if the Lord brings that person, that the Lord will bring that person, yeah. And I think you have to be contented in the idea that if he doesn't, I'm happy with Christ and this world's not my home, and I'm going to I have better things, like you know, heaven, we're not gonna be worrying about the things that we're worried about here. Here we're worried about you know practical matters, yeah, like sexuality and all these other yeah. That is gonna be so below us, yeah, in the heavenlies, and we can't because it's such a part and such a driving force in our lives today, we think, oh, then heaven will, you know, we'll be having I don't know, you know. I just think that people want to transition, transfer that thought because it's such a part of our life today. And Jesus said, in heaven there's neither male nor female. So what are you gonna do with that? Right. Because that's not he's making the point, just like he makes the point that the most expensive thing, the most valuable thing in our earth today is gold, we're gonna be walking on those things. And that I think that same paradigm is Jesus is trying to show that what we so value and think are so much necessity in this life and this world are not gonna be that important.

SPEAKER_01: 1:50:11

Yeah. No, it's not.

SPEAKER_02: 1:50:13

So if you're focused on sex and you're just, you know, the heavenlies is gonna be a celestial whatever.

SPEAKER_01: 1:50:23

Yeah, I think people I think that's ridiculous. Yeah, they just don't know how to just live. But I think every stage that you walk through in in your choice to pursue the Lord in this way, the holiness way, the abstinence, all being single, waiting for God, is always gonna reveal something within us. Like, and and I believe ultimately God wants to heal every single piece of our heart. And so when I bump against, so on Thanksgiving, I'm gonna tell you about about the caterpillars. I'm gonna tell them about the caterpillars. So at Thanksgiving, I was having a conversation with him, a pastoral conversation about some things in my own life, and he he talked to me about my eyelashes. Oh, and second time he's called them caterpillars. But that, you know what how much of a distraction it is. And um, and I'm like, I'm I'm not married to him, but I have had eyelashes for almost 20 years, 19 years. So 19 years I've been wearing eyelashes to, you know, feel better about myself, I guess. Um, but the point of saying that is everything that I let go of, I'm bumping up against my own insecurity and having to expose that insecurity to the Lord and letting him do the work in it, you know. Um, and and that's that's the hard thing, right? It's because it's not about lashes, no lashes, not about wearing lipstick, no lipstick, you know, it's not about any of that. It's about um being able to love myself, yeah. You know, being able to look in the mirror and feel like I can face my clients today and and feel like I have some form of self-confidence, you know, and that that's a slippery slope too. But, you know, my point in all of this is the things that I have let go of in order to in order to live this life in what I know God told me I was called to, um, it's bumped up against my own wounds and humanity and and insecurities. And I think for the backslider, you know, I definitely don't want you to come back and have to fit in a mold. I know that you don't want anyone to come back and fit into a mold. It's super needful that you know yourself and that you can begin to just get vertical with God and just find the Lord. Because, and then for those that's been back for a little while, you know, every new thing that God presents to us is an invitation for deeper healing, in my opinion, and deeper relationship with Him. And ultimately, God is not this is gonna sound contrary, you can fix it from a pastoral place. But God is not a God of judgment, He's not sitting there waiting for us to be perfect before He's gonna love us or even move in our life, but rather He knows that how much bondage sometimes we are in by the things, you know, there's so many little things that never show up on the outside appearance that we could do that keeps us captive. You know, and um and God is trying to do all of those things, not that not just the outside. Like you said, the outside just comes naturally as we grow closer to the Lord, and I think that's the way it should be. But um, but God is not punitive, He's not sitting there waiting for you to be a certain way for Him to love you. He just loves you, yeah, you know, and I I don't want you know, I ask him to have this conversation because I don't want any backslider, any prodigal to not come back to church because of what they think they have to comply with.

SPEAKER_02: 1:55:09

Yeah. I hope that's what this conversation destroys. This has been my prayer about this conversation is that Lord help help help me to destroy some of those things, those concepts that are built up in our own minds, because I think that ultimately you've played out. I've watched you play out in in your walk back to God is that I didn't I didn't require a bunch of stuff out of you up front. I'm not requiring a I but you have step by step, God has revealed these things to you. And you've made those changes. We are the all all I think that the backslider has to do is say, I'm just a lump of clay, let me get back on the potter's wheel. Um and if we're if we'll allow our hearts to be in that position, God will build us the way He wants us to be. Yeah, and it won't, it will be beautiful, it will be incredible, it will not feel awkward, it will not be strange to us, it'll be like, Yeah, I don't know why I haven't been this my whole life. This is who I am.

SPEAKER_01: 1:56:12

Ultimately, yes.

SPEAKER_02: 1:56:13

And it's just been buried by all these other things, yeah, and tarnished and tainted by all the the different you know things that we've been trying to be or do in our lives, and we fell into these different molds because of that. And Jesus is just saying, come on, just be that lump, be the lump of clay again. Let me put my hands back on you, let me form you. Uh, can't I reform you? And and and I think the the the spirit is very clear that he does. That's why I was so confident. I know when you when you came back and you're saying, you know, I don't know, I you know this. I said, as long as you'll listen to the Lord, because I know the way the Lord works, and that is he always changes what he touches. Yeah, he never leaves anybody in the condition they're in. I don't care how good or how far away they are from God, he never leaves people in the condition they're in. He brings them really to his design for them.

SPEAKER_01: 1:57:06

Yeah, complete redemption and and restoration, yeah, even to restore. And that and that's what like I feel like I could have stayed on the pew and went to heaven, and you know, I could have not done all any of the things and lived, but I also would have lived without the more of God that I was searching for, you know. I I think that for me, I want more of him, and so at every little crossroads, there's many, many crossroads he presents. Okay, if you want more, yeah, you can go this way or you can stay this way. And like literally, you have to ponder and consider that because there is a price to pay. But it is a glorious price when you when you make a choice to pay the price, it's not costly.

SPEAKER_03: 1:58:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:58:03

Because the reward of what we get in return is everything. Yeah, you know, and and I don't know for people out there, I wish I could convey. I wish I could convey what that feels like, what that looks like. When you just make one small decision to say, okay, God, I'm gonna try. Because that one small decision to give God a chance again in your life will be the best thing you ever did, you know, because there is nothing that can compete with his presence. There's there's nothing that can compete to his voice, you know, speaking to you in a moment. I was in danger once in my in my office, and the Lord just clearly spoke. He's gonna hurt you, he could hurt you. And it was a word of warning, and it was just so clear, and like there's just nothing that compares to being positionally set to hear him without the noise of the world, without the noise of our inner uh our inner um cognitive dissonance that takes place. It's it's just pureness because that connection has been re-established.

SPEAKER_02: 1:59:37

Yeah. I think it's so it's such a beautiful moment because it is, it's to me that you just feel a person feels so much more in their skin when they're walking in un in unity with with the Lord. The stuff that I think God just as we're walking, the the stuff, the cares of this world just. kind of fall off. They just the the the you know all the requirements that we had put on ourselves from what this person thought or that person what we should those things just kind of fall off when you're in that really close relationship with Jesus and you just feel so in your skin it's like yeah it it it's like I I've been waiting to be here my whole life. Yeah I'm finally I'm finally walking in in that in that unity with him and it's it's a it's the best thing ever. I feel like that's where that's where holiness is walking with him like that.

SPEAKER_01: 2:00:32

Yeah. Yeah and he does the work and and that's I would say let let him do the work you said at Thanksgiving you know it's the journey the backslider does have a journey back and every little step is is significant and God is going to lead the backslider through each step you know I just wanted them to hear a pastor's heart because I know many have preconceived ideas and that's I don't think that's the heart of the ministry now.

SPEAKER_02: 2:01:10

No I don't think so yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 2:01:13

So um any final words to anyone listening out there oh man I you know I I think it's just I I appreciate you doing this.

SPEAKER_02: 2:01:27

Um this is probably one of the most hurtful topics uh as far as at least in in our movement um and I think it's uh for you trying to cross this barrier and really trying to bring it into a way in which hopefully black backsliders can see uh I just I really appreciate appreciate the discussion I think it's I I hope it I hope it can really help um some people because really God he is love he's trying to bring he's our father he's gonna accept us right you know um he's just gonna accept us as a father and all we have to do is really come to him as as children and then yeah you know he takes care of the rest we grow and mature in him and you know um I feel like you know if you'll just be patient with with God he'll build up I'm I guess I'm talking to pastors right now because uh I feel like as pastors if we're patient with people if we grant people the mercy and grace that God has given us man it it really is so so helpful if we get to a place where we're just demanding people to do things as pastors I think that's um I think it's very ineffective. I think it creates a um a a group that may be obedient to a man but not to God. I think it has these kind of catastrophic outcomes but if we're patient with people and give them grace and mercy and and and really allow God to work in their life it's amazing to see how quickly God does the work and how truly uh efficiently he does it because it comes from inside yeah and uh it's true change that lasts I think my pastor brother McPhail always said when I was growing up uh a man convinced against his will of a is of the same mind still he would repeat that a number of times that's man convinced against his will is of the same mind still it's true. It's it's words that I think have just all I've always lived by and I think is so so true and especially when it comes to these kind of things is people can demand all kind of religious nonsense like the Pharisees did and the you know um demand things of people who don't who their heart is not there.

SPEAKER_06: 2:03:55

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 2:03:55

And so there really is a heart condition. Right. And so when they're out they're done you know all that stuff soon as you know kids that grow up in and I I was a youth pastor uh you know for for many years you know you see these kids they grow up in church and they say soon as I'm 18 I am out of here I will never I you know and I think oh God please let them see the beauty before it's too late you know but some of them don't and they they dip out and they are gone so and and um you know they have a number of struggles and then when if they ever turn and when God is working on them they turn back they're like man what did I what was I doing? And it's almost like they have this just come you know you know prodigal moment where they come back and they're like wow I I didn't realize the mercy and the grace. I didn't understand I didn't understand my parents were trying to help me right they weren't trying to destroy my life they were trying to build up barriers to protect me. Right right they were trying to do these things they were putting these boundaries up because they know the the enemies out there and trying to you know trying to attack and I think if we realized how much people cared about us those who you know come in and say oh the standards the standard really those people if you peeled back all the stuff that builds up around this this this topic you peeled all that back you'll see a heart that's somebody a parent that loves their child right a pastor that loves their flock right you may have misinterpreted how it comes a comacross but the essence was somebody who truly loved you who was truly cared about your soul right and put these things in action thinking that this would be the best yeah I think I think it was all all those things were done with a pure heart.

SPEAKER_01: 2:05:45

Yeah and and I definitely can see that now as someone who's come back I can understand the reasons now um looking back and and I I do actually believe we were very protected in lots of ways because of how we lived that others weren't yeah so truly all right well I love you you're a great pastor and thank you for being here again well thank you thank you yeah and for anyone out there I hope I hope this helps please please please please please don't let the outward appearance keep you from coming back to church get into a place where the Holy Ghost is moving where God is is there and just get back in his presence and let him walk you through because the the ultimate goal is to make heaven right I want to make it to heaven and not because I just don't want to go to hell but because I want to live with the one I love the most you know so thank you for watching and um again if you have a testimony to share if you're a backslider and have come back um please reach out to us we would love to talk to you and thanks again bye.

SPEAKER_00: 2:07:02

We are so glad you joined us if you have a story of redemption or have worn the label of a backslider we would love to hear from you. If you'd like to support our ministry your donation will be tax deductible visit our website atredeemed backslider dot org we hope you will tune in for our next episode