Transformed By God's Love- Ben Bland: TRB Season 2 Ep. 44

A bold prayer can outlast decades—and catch up to you when you least expect it. That’s the heartbeat of this powerful conversation with Ben Bland, a designer whose life moved from church pews to drag stages and back to the waters of baptism, where identity was stripped and reborn. We pull no punches about the pain: abuse hidden in a miracle-working church, the ache for belonging that made the LGBTQ scene feel like home, and the wilderness that comes after early victory when temptation returns and the crowd is gone.

Together we explore why love is not soft—it is strategic. Ben shares why deliverance must come before repentance for bound people to make a real decision for Christ, and how targeted intercession can go ahead of someone for years. We talk about not “jumping in front of prayer,” resisting the enemy in our thoughts, and recognizing the difference between inner desire and external spiritual attack. His baptism story is raw and helpful: it felt awful, warfare began immediately, and yet it changed him more than anything. That honesty will steady anyone who left the water confused rather than euphoric.

Tune in for the rest of the conversation and follow Ben Bland on social media, his posts will inspire you, make you laugh out-loud and make you cry at the beautiful love of God in Ben's Life.

If you are a prodigal who has come home, please reach out to us, we would love to feature your testimony.

Transcript

Conference, Sponsor, And Host Intro

SPEAKER_02 0:00

If you haven't heard the Redeemed Backslider podcast in the Pentecostal Lighthouse of Viselia, it's getting ready to host Unshackled, a conference that is specifically geared for prodigals and the families of Prodigals. It's taking place March 6th, 7th, and 8th at the Pentecostal Lighthouse Church. We are attaching the flyer to this podcast, and you're welcome to follow us on social media for more information. You can also email us or visit the website, the redeembackslider.org or Pentecostal Lighthouse.net. We hope that you will make plans to come. We are expecting a wonderful presence of God. This episode has been sponsored by my friend and dentist, Dr. Craig Sadio at SmileVicelia. If you're looking for a dentist, you won't find a better one in Tularie County. He specializes in all your dentistry needs, plus cosmetic dentistry and ortho. His phone number is 559-734-7035. If you call him, please tell him that Kathy from the Redeem Backslider Podcast sent you. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Welcome to the Redeemed Backslider. With your host, Kathy Chastain, Christian-based psychotherapist in Redeemed Backslider. This podcast is dedicated to those who have wandered but are ready to return to the life-changing power of grace and the freedom found in Jesus.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

Hi, welcome to the Redeemed Backslider. I'm your host, Kathy Chastain. I am a Christian-based psychotherapist and a redeemed backslider. With me today from Kentucky is Ben Bland. Ben has an incredible testimony. If you don't know Ben, if you haven't heard about Ben, you need to look him up on Facebook and follow him. He will bless you. And you will see as we go through his testimony today. But he was, he is a florist. He travels all over the United States, or at least the Midwest, it looks like, and the East Coast decorating houses for Christmas. He's a designer. And so this is the date his calendar was available. So he's very, very busy. Um and it is an extreme privilege and honor that he would say yes to the podcast. And so, Ben, I love you. You have blessed me so much. I uh the things that you post on Facebook, um, I just feel like I I wish it could just be shouted from the mountaintops. And I know that God is using your social media to be a witness and a light, but man, you really have a ministry to the church world um and to the lost, you know. Uh I mean, yeah, it's so exciting to see what God has done in your life. Has it been six years now that you have come back to the Lord?

SPEAKER_05 3:17

It uh almost. I am horrible with dates. I'm horrible with dates. I would have to go back and check calendars. Um almost six years, yes. I was watching one of that I know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

Yeah, because I was watching uh one of your services, and it was I think it was like a year ago, it was five years or 10 months ago or something, so I knew it was pretty close. So God has done a huge work in a short amount of time in your life.

Wilderness Season And Unspoken Struggles

SPEAKER_05 3:47

Oh my goodness, my goodness. Do you know He's doing a work? Um and I'm in such a different place with Christ today than I was when I started. Like we're in a new thing, and I'm just working through it and trying to figure it all out, and with his help, um, I'm gonna get through it, but yeah, we're in a new, a new phase of Christianity for me, you know. Um, you know, I'm I'm really probably it it's been about two years I I started walking walking into a wilderness, and um I and and this is what I say about the wilderness, it is for my growth, and I'm aware, I'm aware of that. But here's what I've here's what I've noticed when people start heading into where I'm heading, a lot of times they start heading out the back door because they are not prepared. Nobody prepared me for where I am right now. Do you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 4:57

Like yes, yes. Well, we don't talk about it. We don't we just talk about God is you know, just turn it over to God, just pray about it more, you know. Like almost like we shouldn't feel these ways, right? We shouldn't worry and fear and have depression. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:14

But we do. We do, but we do it's part of the process. Oh, what a but what a powerful process that I'm in. Uh God is so good. I'm so thankful uh for him.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

You know what I notice about you, um, and I'll be quiet in a second and let you talk, but you know, I I in in everything that you have been through and done, God has really imparted so much wisdom. Uh I can't tell you the number of times I've heard you speak, and I'm grabbing my notebook, writing the one-liners that you say, because it in your process there has been so much revelation. God has revealed himself to you, how he works, who he is, where the church is. Uh I mean, I feel like not everybody that comes out of a life of sin understands.

SPEAKER_05 6:17

Especially where I was.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Right. Understands the wisdom and what God is. Like it's almost like you're you're seeing it from an other viewpoint as you're living it, and God is just giving you so much wisdom in in it all. And the things that you say, I mean, literally, I I am gonna just turn this mic over to you and let you talk because I know that what you say is powerful and it's rooted in truth and and sound biblical um basis, you know. I do have questions, but I'm just gonna let you talk for a while.

SPEAKER_05 6:54

Well, I you you ask the questions and I'll try to answer. So I I'll just I'll follow your lead. Um I really can't believe all these years because five years or six years, I you know, that's a long time.

SPEAKER_08 7:12

Yeah.

Abuse In A Miracle-Working Church

SPEAKER_05 7:13

Just just in life, it's a long time. And then I look back at how fast that it's flown by and how how God has just shown me and led me and and he's guided me. He's been a lamp unto my feet, literally. Right. And uh and a and a light into He's been a light into I feel the Lord right now already. He's a light unto my path. Christ came to me with a revelation. He met me at home. I tell everybody this everywhere that I go. Jesus Christ came to me while I was a gay man on drugs at home when I did not want the Lord, when I did not want nothing to do with the church, when I did not want anything to do with ministry or preachers or church people specifically. He came to me at home and changed my life. He gave me such a powerful revelation that day. I will never forget it as long as I live, what happened to me that day. And um, and the word of God says he reveals his self to us. And God, God but he just began to come to me with little things and give me little bits of things and little bits of information. And as I would, you know, process that and uh absorb that into my mind and think about it and chew on it, and um, and then when I would get there, he would just give me a little more, a little uh more of something else, and then the process would start all over. So Jesus loves everybody, and what I have come to know is he wanted me when I did not want him, and he met me at home on a couch where I was not in a church service with people praying with me, and where I could not say that I got um emotional or caught up in the the spirit of uh you know how it is at church. He just he came to me at home and gave me an experience that I can never deny. Yeah, and he was so he was so personal um with me that way, and so I could never deny though you know what he did for me. And then of course all of that led into church, and then all of that changed for me. But God will meet you where you are.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

Yes. So, Ben, I I had this later in my question, but since you said that, um, and I know you'll get to this in your in your testimony, but you said, which I I thought was so revelatory and so powerful, but I also thought about the parents of backsliders out there. You said that you went to a camp meeting and a lady prayed for you, and that it took 20 years for those prayers to catch up to you. That day in your house, was that her prayers catching up to you that day?

SPEAKER_05 10:25

That was so many prayers catching up to me that day. The Lord had to absolutely break me completely down naturally to help me spiritually. God had to take everything out of my natural life and break me to the core of who I was, and that was prayer. And so many times, as Christian, what I'm learning, I shouldn't say so many times, everybody else, what I'm learning, I we'll just keep this about me today, it is I don't ever need to jump in front of prayer.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

What do you mean by that? What do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_05 11:05

Just when we especially when we have backslidden kids, or we we wanna we want them to do it our way, or we want we want we just want because we know and so many times we interfere in people's lives when we just need to let the Lord work in their lives. Yes, and um we we don't need to jump in front of prayer. God God did the work. Yeah, he never called me to change people, God called me to love people while he changes people. So I'm I'm learning. I'm learning. Oh, it's God is good.

Legalism, Modesty, And Missing The Point

SPEAKER_02 11:43

He is so good, and uh yeah. I I'm I I'm really I am somewhat I'm so glad that someone gave me your name because you are saying all the things I think that people experience when they come back to the Lord, and it's so evident in your life. Um, and it's a blessing to me. I get blessed. Like I saw your Facebook post about the piece of paper, and I just wept because the truth of that, the revelation of that is powerful, and to see how how that affected you, it was, you know, you are are a witness to so many of in such a practical way in a profound way. And um, I just I hope that that encourages you. There's people you are touching that you may never ever ever know, but you know, across the airway, somebody like me is sitting behind my phone crying at the goodness of God, yeah. That's the revel revelation of God in your life, you know, having heard your testimony and knowing what he's done in my life, you know. Yeah. Um he's good and it's go ahead.

SPEAKER_05 13:05

It's it's the simplicity of Christ.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

Yes. But it's so profound, it's complex.

SPEAKER_05 13:12

We have we we have overcomplicated the simplicity of Christ because the simple the simplicity of Christ is all anybody needs, it is really all that we need. So I'm so thankful for and my mother says he came to me simply because I'm simple-minded. So there's that.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

Um well uh for those of for the for the people out there that don't know your story, um, you want to give, do you want to kind of give a snapshot, a little history about where you come from, what happened to you, where it took you to?

SPEAKER_05 13:53

So I grew up um in a little holiness church. We were not uh UPC, we were an independent church, and um it was it was a mighty church. I would the power of the Lord was so strong um in that church. Um the way that he would move, I saw miracles in that church. You know what I'm saying? So even as a little child, I saw things, supernatural things that I could never, ever, ever deny, no matter how far out I got, um, and no matter how far away from Did you did you have a walk with God at that time in your life as you were seeing all of the okay no just you just just being there? You felt it just I we literally saw miracles happen in our church. So I saw things and experienced things as a little boy. I was a little child. Um and you know, and to know that was God. You just you know, we had powerful services, but with that, you know, there was a there was a man in our church that he sat on our platform, and um, you know, he he began to just do things inappropriately with me, and he would take me to the bathroom at church, and um, you know, just little things led up to sexual abuse. And I went through that for years and years and years, and nobody knew. I never told.

SPEAKER_02 15:29

How old were you when it started?

Therapy, Identity, And Spiritual Misdirection

SPEAKER_05 15:32

Um, I would say probably around eight. Um I would say I went to therapy for three years, and there's a block of my life that is completely blocked out for me that I cannot remember. And my therapist said, you know, especially children that go through trauma like what I went through, you block things out of your mind. And lots of people lose, you know, years of their life that they cannot remember. And I can remember, this is the crazy thing. I can remember things leading up to, I remember going through certain things, I remember certain parts of abuse, I remember lots of abuse, but then it got really traumatic. And I can remember the first, very first time that it got so traumatic, and I remember nothing after that. And I lost about three years of my life. I cannot remember um anything that that happened there. But I so I would, you know, I would I would endure many of many of those experiences at church with him, and he would come out of the bathroom, bring me out of the bathroom, walk back into a sanctuary, he would shout and speak in tongues just like everybody else, and I was I would just walk back and sit down, just I was just traumatized. And yeah, that's that's where this is the internal, this is the internal struggle that I had. I knew God was real because I saw miracles happen in the sanctuary that I was in. And at the same time, I was going through horrible abuse. So I beg, you know, my hatred for the church started that way. But at the same time, I could not deny what I had saw and knew and um experienced. So there was all of my life kind of this internal struggle of I cannot stand the church, I don't want anything to do with the church. And I began to blame an entire church for what one person did. And that's how the that's the enemy, because the truth is I had a church that really did love me and they had no clue, you know, they had no clue what was what was happening.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

So I want I wanted to ask you uh about that. Um if the power of God is there and you're seeing miracles and the Holy Ghost is moving, where was the discernment where for this man? And where where was anybody that's Holy Ghost filled discernment to to not see what was happening?

SPEAKER_05 18:19

Where I asked that question always. Where? I I remember being told years ago, you know, that we had discernment in this church. Uh we had a meeting, you know, years ago about some things, and I said, you know, if you had discernment, there would have this would have never gone this far because I was not the only child. I'm the only one, you know, that chose to speak about it. But there's an entire generation of children from my church that that are damaged, and they don't know how to deal with it, and all of them deal with it differently. We all know each other, and some of us know what each other went through, but all of them have chosen never to speak about it. They don't know how to process it, they don't know how to get it out. So where is the discernment? Um that's the question of the that is the question.

Drag Culture, Belonging, And The Process Of Sin

SPEAKER_02 19:11

Because you mentioned a lot about every testimony I've heard you share about it. You have said, I grew up in a religious church, and so my hearing that says, Oh, there was no power of God there because the religious spirit was there. And so that's how come there was no discernment, you know. It was a different spirit, but yet miracles were happening and people were uh Holy Ghost.

SPEAKER_05 19:41

So without being ever disrespectful to that ministry or that um that leadership, because now I know because what I've learned from what they didn't do. God has taught me so much. About what I should do. And it's not their fault, you know. I I blame them in no way. I absolutely I don't want anybody any anywhere to think that I blame a church because I don't do that. But I have learned so much about a religious spirit. And um because you know, I came from a church that was so focused on what you wore and how you, you know, that was our number one. And that's why I write about this today. If our number one goal is to get women out of pants and into dresses, and our number one goal is to get men out of if that is our number one goal, we've completely missed it.

SPEAKER_08 20:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 20:39

The closer I get to Christ, absolutely, the more God brings me into, you know, I see the way I the more modesty I can. It's just such a process. Like the closer I get to God, the more just things He just shows me. Yes, yes. But but it's if that if my goal is to get my friend who has lost to change the way that they dress, I have completely missed what God has called me to do.

SPEAKER_03 21:09

Right.

SPEAKER_05 21:10

Because Jesus showed me things, Christ showed me things, and when he showed me things, I was able to follow in those things.

SPEAKER_04 21:19

Right.

SPEAKER_05 21:20

So but so I grew up that way. Um it was a very traumatic time in my life. I started therapy at 18 years old. I never told anybody that had ever happened to me, and it lasted for years and years and years.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Yeah, how long did it how long did it last? Did it last till you were 18 and you left?

SPEAKER_05 21:46

No, no, no. It lasted. I think I was I would I've got all this written down, I would have to go back and look. But it, you know, it was many, many years from young, younger on up and until I knew, you know, that I could just say no. Um but at 18, I carried all that with me. And just not being able to tell, not being able to feel like you could talk to anybody, and especially being in a church where you felt you already feel shame and embarrassment that you know that something like that when that that happens in your life, it's the shame is horrible, and the embarrassment is horrible, but just not to be where you feel like you're in a safe place at church, or you we couldn't even talk about sex in our church. We couldn't even say the word pregnant. It was just so strict and so religious, and you know, and meanwhile, there was a whole generation of kids being violated, and at 18, I thought, I've got to have some help. I've got to have some help. And I started therapy at 18 years old. Now then, God has taught me something my whole life. I'm telling you, listen, if you're going through it, it's for a reason. I'm learning more and more. If you're going, I don't care what what you're going through in your life today, whatever you're going through is for a reason. Therapy was a place where I would sit on a couch and talk to a lady who would say to me, You are born this way. This is who you are, and you need to embrace this. And and there was that struggle again, and I thought, well, maybe, maybe this, maybe I am, you know, maybe I'm girly be because of, maybe I'm this because of, or maybe I'm that because of. And the enemy be really began to work through that therapy.

SPEAKER_07 23:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 23:57

I also tell every church, listen, it's okay to have a therapist, it's perfectly okay, but seek out godly therapy, you know, seek out godly, seek out godly advice because that's really what matters.

SPEAKER_02 24:11

So Yeah, there are witches, there are active witches practicing witchcraft that are therapists. And so I believe it. I I tell everybody that too. Like, you better interview your therapist and make sure your values align before you just allow someone to speak into your life.

SPEAKER_05 24:30

You should. It's so important, and I know that today. It is so important, especially in today's society. Sure, sure. Um I I I did therapy for three years, and it was I was hogwild at 18. I went hogwild. I thought, if I can get out of this church, if I can get away from these people, I will never have nothing to do with these people again. You know, I blamed God.

SPEAKER_03 25:02

Sure.

The Camp Meeting Prayer That Tracked Him Down

SPEAKER_05 25:02

I blame God for, you know, life. And so many people blame God for just life. And um, you know, looking back how silly I was to do such a thing, now that I hear other people doing those things, you know, I do uh and talk with lots of people who still blame God and I think, oh my goodness, Jesus, thank you for having mercy on me. Because it's just it's just life. And things happen because we're human and it's just life. And um I went to a church service at 21. Um my friend said, let's go, let's go to that camp meeting. And and I went, had eyeliner on. You know, I I I I was proud of who I was. I didn't care if I attended the church. I did I I didn't care.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Because by this time, you were you already were you already dressing as a drag queen? Were you already doing all of that that stuff?

SPEAKER_05 26:08

At 18, I went to a gay bar for the very first time. My friends took me, and that's when it all happened. I mean, it just I walked through the doors of a gay bar, and I could not believe where I was. And I thought, this is where I'm supposed to be. This is this is, you know, they were the most welcoming bunch of people. You the crazier the better. Wear what you want, live what you want, be who you want, and and we love you, and you're welcome here and you're celebrated here. And I thought I found my people. And I cut the corner the very first time I went to a gay bar, and you know, Kentucky had one of the biggest gay bars in the country east side of the United States. Of all places, Kentucky has we had the biggest gay bars. And I went around the corner. I had never heard of a drag queen. I did not even know that name. I had never, I didn't really know that men dressed like women. I really didn't know, I was so sheltered at church. Right. Yet being sexually abused, I was still so sheltered. I didn't know any of the ways of the world per se. And I just remember going around the corner and seeing that drag queen, and I thought, oh my goodness, this is what I want to be. And there were just thousands and thousands of people watching the show and throwing money, and um it changed me that that very moment changed my life, and so you know, then you go to the club one day and you put a little eyeliner on, and this is how all the gay boys do. And then the next thing you know, you're your eyeshadow, and then you just do a little more and just a little more and a little more, and there is a process to sin just like there is a process to Christ. Right, there is a process to walking away from God and entertaining spirits of the enemy exactly the same way as there is coming to Christ and coming away from those spirits. Jesus Christ is the process. Yes, as Christians, he is the process, and the process is so powerful, and we need to go through the process. Yes, because the process is what will change your life.

SPEAKER_08 28:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:35

But I started dressing in drag at 18, and the it wasn't long before I was on the stage doing the same thing that I had saw, and people came from everywhere to see me, and you know, I was never ashamed of those things. I remember this is how cra this is how crazy my story is. I remember being offered, um, a man offered to pay for me to have uh breast implants, and I remember setting backstage before I was going out to do a show one night, and I thought, I'm gonna do it. You know, I I just remember thinking, I'm gonna do it. It just feels right, and it's who I am, and why would I not do it? And I looked at the other drag queens who had, you know, already started procedures and doing things that, you know, 25 and 30 years ago was very risque, which now it's everybody does it.

SPEAKER_04 29:34

Right.

SPEAKER_05 29:35

And I thought I'm gonna do it. And thank you, Jesus. At the last minute, I changed my mind because I knew somewhere deep down that was a line that I should not cross. Um, but that's I mean, I was really gonna do those things. Um God could God God was with you. Oh. So anyway, yeah, I started dressing in drag at 18.

Don’t Jump In Front Of Prayer

SPEAKER_02 30:07

How did you how did you come to be at that camp meeting at 21?

SPEAKER_05 30:12

At 21, I had now I had been to a Pentecostal church um when I was 16, maybe 15 or 16, and you know, it it wasn't a long, long time. So um I had an older lady, her name was Ruth, and you know, she would go to drag shows with me, and you know, she's just my sidekick. It was an unlikely friendship. I was so much younger than her. And she always wore wigs, and I'd go over and fix her hair. And one day I went over and fixed her hair, and she said, Well, they're having a Pentecostal camp meeting. Um, do you want to go? And I said, Sure, I'll go. So I went with eyeliner on and everything else, and I didn't care. You know, I just I was so bold in what I did. Looking back, I was so bold, I just thought I was being normal.

SPEAKER_04 31:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:08

And this is what I tell Christians today. When you see people that are so out there, they really are not trying to be, the majority of them are not trying to be in your face. They just really are deceived. They're just deceived.

SPEAKER_04 31:25

Right.

SPEAKER_05 31:26

And they really think they're walking in what they're supposed to be walking in. They think this is who they really are. They really just think they're just living life the best that they can.

SPEAKER_04 31:36

Right.

Simplicity Of Christ And Creative Calling

SPEAKER_05 31:36

And they and they really see you as the enemy. And to that spirit, you are the enemy. But you know, I never tried to hurt anybody. I wasn't trying to be mean to anybody. I was just living life. And it's just who it's just who I was. I will never forget that that day at camp meeting. God has always just moved. He's had a good or bad life. Good or bad. Every time I've shown up at church, he's done something. And it was there were so many people there that day. And you know, we smoked cigarettes all the way to church, and we got in there and I we sat on the back row. And there was I mean, it looked like 5,000 people there. And I just saw this woman get up out of the front, and to describe to you how your heart drops when you know somebody's walking towards you. She just started walking down the aisle, and I thought, oh my goodness, this woman's coming back here for me. You know, my heart just sank. And I thought, I told my friend Ruth, I said, she's coming back here for us. And it is a funny story. Ruth that day, normally we you know we screw that wig down on her head or whatever, and and we didn't that day. And she said, I don't have my my wig tied down. And I said, Well, don't worry about it. I said, you know, they're not gonna bother us. And I should have known. So we got in there and sat down, and here come this woman down the aisleway. And when I tell you, she started pushing, I tell people she was literally kicking chairs. We were in the middle of the row. She just started pushing chairs out of the way. And I thought, oh my goodness. I mean, my heart just absolutely sank. She grabbed me by the hair of the head. She began, she laid her hands on me, she took a hold of my head, and she began to plead the blood of Jesus over my life. And I mean, she was not intimidated by the spirit that was in me. She was not intimidated by what I had on or what I look like. She was on a mission. And this is why I tell everybody in every church, when God lays it on your heart to go pray with somebody, you get up right then and you go pray. If God lays it on your heart to call somebody, you pick up the phone right then and call them. Because that prayer that she prayed over my life, the the blood of Jesus that she prayed over my life and the protection that she prayed over my life that day, I just begin to sob. I mean, I begin to weep. And she said to me, Please raise your hands. Ben, please raise your hands. And I was so weighed down with sin and beat down with sin, I could not even raise my hands. I couldn't do nothing. And I just, I remember looking at the floor and just sobbing. She prayed so hard that day. And when the majority of the church just looked at me, you know, and when I came through the back door, they didn't know what to do with me. People are intimidated. People are intimidated by saying, Can you believe it?

SPEAKER_04 34:56

Right, right, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:58

Can you believe it? And when she just she she lit into us and then and then she stopped the camp meeting and called for the ministry, and everybody's back there praying. And and this is why I tell people, you know, Ruth Wig went flying through the air by the time we look like we've been hit by a truck when they got done with us that day. But here's what she said to me. I had never told I had been sexually abused. I was 21.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

She said to me that day. You never told me.

SPEAKER_05 35:37

No, I my therapist was the only person I had told. I had never told my parents, I had never told anybody. And the woman at church that day looked at me, looked me in the face and said, The Holy Ghost has shown me what's happened to you. She said, Ben, the Lord has shown me who it is. When I see him, I'll know him. She said, God has shown me his face. And everybody, everybody heard her. And so I was outed about sexual abuse at church in front of everybody. So I had to go tell my parents. And um I was 21 when that happened. Now listen, those prayers that she prayed over my life carried me all of my life.

unknown 36:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:25

I mean, I mean this, so I mean this. The prayer you pray today may be really maybe for 10 years down the road. The prayer that you pray, the prayer that you pray today over somebody may not be for today. It really may be for 20 years down the road. But if you don't pray today, you might not see the results today, but you will see it in 10 years when it's supposed to be there. That prayer will catch up to you. Actually, that prayer will go before you, and you will catch up to prayer. You'll catch up to it.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

And so How did you learn that, Ben? Like that's that's a through that prayer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 37:06

Just through that prayer. Yeah. Yeah. The Lord just showed me that diagram.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

What what I I find it interesting. Uh I feel like you have always had in in as I hear you speak, you've always had a sensitive heart toward the Lord, uh, despite being angry at him and blaming him. Um because as a backslider sitting in the church, having people come up to me to pray for me, I resented it. I was angry about it. I did not want their pity and I didn't want their prayers. I was there to just be with God. And the more someone came up to me to pray, the more I felt their judgment. That's that's how I viewed it. How do you think in that moment that you didn't get angry, you weren't resistant, you weren't rebellious, you you actually allowed it.

SPEAKER_05 38:01

You now listen, there's times when I I didn't want to be touched by church members. Even when I came back to the Lord and you know, when I when I met Sister Gleason, she began to lead me to Christ, I would tell her, I do I do not want anybody from the church to touch me. I do not want any church member to hug me. I do not want them to pray with me. If somebody walks up to me, I would tell her, I'm going to walk out the back door. And I meant it. I meant it. Right. But there are times, there are times when it's absolutely necessary to go lay your hands on somebody.

SPEAKER_02 38:39

There are You got to be led by God.

SPEAKER_05 38:42

There you have to be led.

SPEAKER_02 38:44

You have to be because God will prepare the heart. So do you feel like maybe God just prepared your heart for that day?

SPEAKER_05 38:51

God prepared me for that day. I let me I was unprepared for that day, but he knew what he was doing.

SPEAKER_04 38:57

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_05 38:59

You know, sis Go ahead. Well, no, I was gonna say when when Sister Gleason began to leave me to the Lord, I'm telling you, I uh the Lord sent COVID just for me. I know he did it on purpose, just to because they had squares taped off in their church, and she said to me, If I won't let anybody touch you, you know, we need to be sensitive to the needs of sinners.

SPEAKER_08 39:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 39:26

We really do. When we're leading somebody to the Lord, we need to be so sensitive to those needs, and if they don't want to be touched, we need to tell church members, listen, you know, they don't want to shake your hand today. And I love you, sis, and we'll chat later, but but we're not going to touch them today, and they don't want to be hugged today. And so we're not going to do that today. Sister Gleason would tell people, you know, she I remember her telling me, I will not let anybody touch you. And she guarded me like a mother hen. She guarded me.

SPEAKER_07 39:59

And I

SPEAKER_05 40:00

I remember her saying to me, if you ever want to go pray, you can go up and get in one of those squares. And she said, I promise you, I will not let anybody touch you. And it happened. It happened. And and she guarded that square. So the you know, God sent COVID for me just to keep pe keep people away from me at the time. I I just couldn't handle it at the time.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

So Ben, why do you think why do you think we're intimidated by sin? Uh you said why?

SPEAKER_05 40:33

Why are we?

unknown 40:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:36

Why are we? I'm not.

SPEAKER_02 40:38

I'm not. I mean, because we've been there, I think, probably, but yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:44

Um now then I can tell you when I became a new Christian, when I was a new Christian, I walked into a gas station. I shared this on Facebook, and the Lord led, you know, I felt the Lord so strongly to go pray for this girl that was I knew she, you know, just a local junkie in our town. And she was standing in the gas station, and I thought, oh my goodness, I cannot go pray with her. I can't. And I drove off. And God, I mean, the Holy Ghost was just quickening my spirit, and I had to turn the car around. And I went back to the gas station. And I remember telling the Lord that day, I will never do that again. I will never ever do that again. And I grabbed that girl by the hands, and I'm telling you, she just began to sob and weep. And I stood right in the gas station and I prayed so hard for her right in front of everybody. And the probably pride, pride. Pride. Okay. I would say pride. Pride is. And when you break down that barrier, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 41:47

No, go ahead.

SPEAKER_05 41:49

When you break down the barrier of pride, we are absolutely have nothing to be intimidated by.

SPEAKER_04 41:56

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:57

I have I have what they need, you have what they need. And we've got we have to figure out how to share that and love people. Yeah. How can I can how can I how can I share this message with you? Well, first, if people if people can't trust you and they can't trust me, then they're never going to listen to us spiritually.

SPEAKER_04 42:19

Right, right.

SPEAKER_05 42:21

And if I can't go have a cup of coffee with you and talk about the weather, well, they're not going to listen to anything that I have to say about the Lord. And if I can't begin to build a relationship with you and people know that I actually care about you, then I have nothing with you. You know what I'm saying? As far as leading somebody to Christ or leading friends to Christ. So coffee's important.

SPEAKER_02 42:44

Yes, I know you said you said Sister Gleason invited you to coffee and said, I just want to be your friend, and you didn't really believe her, but she proved it.

SPEAKER_07 42:54

Yeah. I almost told her no.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

Let's see. I kind of I don't want to interrupt you. I kind of want you to just talk.

SPEAKER_05 43:04

Um ask me questions. I'm better that way.

Trials, Growth, And Honest Christianity

SPEAKER_02 43:07

Okay. I I'm better, I'm better that way too. Um let's see. Okay, I went through the discernment. Um after the abuse. So I'm some of the questions I'm gonna ask, I just want to preface part of what I see in my therapy, my therapy office. I've had the questions myself. I see, I feel like the enemy targets kids. I know that you feel that way. Um I feel like parents we we just don't understand. We think our kids are innocent, we think they don't notice things, we think that they are not really picking up on things. I I just have seen a lot. And I've also seen eight years old to twelve years old is the critical time when it changes the trajectory of a person's life, and particularly boys. I feel like at eight years old, what happens between the age of eight and twelve is highly, highly critical in how what a person's gonna become later. And uh I would agree. So I find it interesting that your abuse began at eight. Um and so uh as I observe people that have been sexually abused, and they're they they either become very feminine and uh like you did, become very feminine, or they become very masculine, right? The girls become the very masculine role, or the men become the very masculine role. Do you have any insight to speak to? I I've all I've often wondered, like what spirit is taking place that changes a man to be a feminine version versus the masculine version, or changes the girl. Because most of uh and I've wondered, is it if it's a same-sex abuse? So if a man is abusing a boy, does that make a difference on what the boy then becomes? Or if a female abuses a boy, does that make a difference in what that child becomes in that homosexual world? Do you have any thoughts on that? I don't know if it's cookie cutter or if it's all different.

Temptation, Thought Life, And Captivity

SPEAKER_05 45:31

I don't want to sidetrack here. Um I feel I feel like we have set roles of gender uh I feel like we've we have done this to ourselves. Just I can only speak on me, and I'm super creative. Uh God has given me talent, and I'm aware of that, you know, that He has given me those talents. I'm getting ready to write a uh write a thing on how I wish the church would support the arts because they don't. And so I feel like I fall into this category, which is falling into your category of being, you know, I never my dad was super masculine. He was ripped. I mean, he was a he just was a construction worker, and sexual abuse changed me. It brought femininity into my life on top of being creative. So there was no healthy way for I wish our churches would would push um push the arts and support the arts and help that group of people. Um to me, I feel like it's connected. I feel like it's more than um I feel like there's talent involved, but at the same time, there's been sexual abuse involved, and it just sent me down a really dark, dark path. Now then, with that being said, you know, the top designers are gay, the top fashion designers are gay, the top this are gay guy, the top that you know what I'm saying? Right. They lead the industry, they lead the industry in these things.

SPEAKER_03 47:19

Right.

SPEAKER_05 47:20

And the bottom line is they really came from where I've come from.

SPEAKER_03 47:24

Right.

SPEAKER_05 47:24

Lots of them. I know lots of them.

SPEAKER_03 47:26

Right.

SPEAKER_05 47:27

They've gone through the same things that I've gone through. And there was no support for them back in the day. And so when trouble came their way, then they really went down a dark path. And then um you find yourself where I found myself. So it's there's no one to blame. I mean, I think it's individually related.

SPEAKER_02 47:59

So you're saying it's yeah, it's not specifically gender based. It's pulling out what was already in a person. If they were already going to be more dominant in their personality or their gifts and talents, it's just gonna be that makes sense.

SPEAKER_05 48:18

I believe that.

SPEAKER_02 48:19

And I believe that. I think about from a psychological standpoint, um, highly sensitive people. Have you ever heard that term? The highly sensitive person. There's books about it. Yes. But uh, as I've observed through my counseling process, sensitivity seems to be um kids that are sensitive, highly sensitive, they're attuned, they're aware, they're perceptive. Other people, especially predators, are also aware of that. They pick up on that. And I feel like there's been a lot of victims of of kiddos who are sensitive in their nature, which I believe is a gift from God. And so it kind of attracts things to them. Um, but I also think that kiddos that are sensitive are also very gifted spiritually, and so there's a lot of overlap and correlation that we don't really know how to identify as maybe churchgoers, church leaders, Sunday school teachers to really pull that out in children and speak to their the gold in them, speak to their gifts and talents instead of letting that be something negative because those same kiddos are feeling uh a huge sense of empathy for others, huge emotional highs and lows that often they want to run from. Do you do you identify with any of that as a kid? Do you remember who you were as a kid before abuse?

SPEAKER_05 50:00

I do. I do. That's the strange thing. I do remember. Um I I I when I tell every church I was a florist before God met me, the truth is I've been that way since I was a child. And I would go as a little boy, you know, doing flower arrangements before sexual abuse. I remember, so I have a talent in me that has always been there.

SPEAKER_02 50:34

And it was appreciation for beauty, and that is a trait of sensitivity.

SPEAKER_05 50:41

You know, I create because I have a creator.

SPEAKER_04 50:45

Yes, right, right.

SPEAKER_05 50:48

I, you know, I I I follow, I tell everybody Jesus Christ was the best decorator that ever lived, and I try to follow in that because that is part of me because he gave that to me.

SPEAKER_08 51:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 51:00

Now then with that came sexual abuse through the enemy.

unknown 51:07

Right.

SPEAKER_05 51:08

So the enemy tried to take a good thing that was in my life and turned it into a bad thing. Now then, here's here's what happens when we don't talk about it, and when our churches don't talk about it, and our parents don't talk about it, when we when we when we say we could not talk about sex in our household, we could not talk about it at church. We when I tell you we could not say the word pregnant, I'm serious. They had to say in the family way. I wish I knew that the church would help me and believe me, and I wish I knew I had parents that would help me and believe me. And but it's that's something that's hush hush.

SPEAKER_04 52:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 52:04

And why is that? Why?

SPEAKER_04 52:06

I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 52:07

Why are we why? I think why why do we not have why are there not two Sunday school teachers?

unknown 52:15

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_05 52:17

Just in case. Right. Why are there not two people with this person or why why do we not because listen, the enemy is seeking whom he may devour.

SPEAKER_08 52:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 52:28

And he is at church.

SPEAKER_08 52:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 52:31

And I share my story because all of that happened to me at church. You know, I it all started at church and in the car at church. I mean, I could tell you so many stories of uh it was at church.

SPEAKER_08 52:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 52:48

And no nobody, nobody, nobody paid attention.

SPEAKER_09 52:53

Yeah.

Water Baptism And Identity Stripping

SPEAKER_05 52:54

Nobody. They all missed. And I'm not blaming them. Please don't take it this way. I'm not blaming them. But I want I want you to know if I ever had children, they're gonna know, listen, if somebody touches you here, you come and tell me. If somebody does this, you can come and tell me. And listen, we can talk about anything. And I want my I want them to know that they can go to Sunday school, and their Sunday school teachers are led by God, and they can talk about anything with them that may be happening in their life. You can come and tell this person, or you can come and tell that person. I want people to know that. Yeah, you know, we are acting like this is how we act. God is almighty, God does everything, and he's all good, and and he is all these things. But what we're not what what we're not telling people is the enemy walks right through the back door on Sunday morning, too, and he sits down right beside people in churches every single day. Every single time the doors are open, the presence of the Lord is there. But let me tell you who else is there. The spirit of the enemy is there too, and we are not talking about that, and so people are just it's a fine line, it's a fine line here. They're so wrapped up in all things good, right? We're not talking about the bad that's actually happening. Yeah, we're not we're not teaching those things.

SPEAKER_02 54:35

And and I I I agree with you, and I wonder, like, we don't really talk about spiritual warfare in the church. And when when I when I um have asked questions in the past, I mean, I think our pastor is good and understands, but I think that they don't the the information I've gotten back is we don't want to give a place to the enemy. We don't want to magnify him, we don't want to talk about what he can do, but yet, you know, we have people sitting on the church that's addicted to drugs, that's cheating and steeped in pornography and uh call all kinds of sin, right? Sin is sin no matter what what the vice is. And yet we're not we're not talking about it like you said. And I've always wondered that myself is you know, when I was a kid, I I think I got grounded until I memorized the whole 11th chapter of First Corinthians because I trimmed my hair. Because I I saw your eyes roll. I grew up very similarly. And and you know, and all I was trying to do was find a way to be pretty because I felt so ugly. And so, you know, I I wanted to be able to say, I don't fit in here, I don't, I don't have friends. I I go to school at a school where there was not one church person, and so I just felt like such an ugly duckling and an outcast, and I didn't have a way to talk about that because everything was sin and I was gonna go to hell. And so I couldn't even be thinking about it, like you said, let alone talking about it. I think I think some of that has changed in the current generation we live in. But there is a whole generation of your age and my age of kids that grew up the same as us, and that's the backslider that I think we're trying to reach. That they can have a voice now and they can understand that how they were raised was not okay. Like that is not who God is. Um, and people were doing their best. Right, right.

SPEAKER_05 56:50

Yeah. There was there was absolutely no balance.

SPEAKER_03 56:54

Right.

SPEAKER_05 56:54

There Sister Gleason said to me once, you know, you can fall off the road too loose and you can fall off the road too strict. But if you can find a balance in your life, you know, I grew up. If I told you how strict we were, it would blow your mind. We could not do anything. We were so spiritual. I I we my church was so spiritual. And they would they would brag on that and talk about that. They were so Phariseic. They were it was Phariseacal, if that if that's a word.

SPEAKER_06 57:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 57:35

Um I can just see them standing in the doorway saying, we have our dress together and we look like this, and I mean we couldn't wear red and no hairbows, no color pantyhose, no makeup, long sleeves, no short. I mean, it was just the rules were the rules were printed on the platform.

SPEAKER_04 57:54

Are you serious?

SPEAKER_05 57:55

Are you serious? No saying, yes, they were up in big letters on the back. I mean, it was Oh my goodness. You can't do this, you can't do this, you can't do that. Nobody ever told me what I could do.

SPEAKER_04 58:09

Right.

Why Deliverance First, Then Repentance

SPEAKER_05 58:09

I was so scared. I had so much fear in my life of messing up, of messing, of displeasing God, displeasing my family, displeasing the church. I never knew that Jesus loved me. I never, I really never knew that he cared about me. All I knew was what I couldn't do and where I couldn't go, who I couldn't see or who I couldn't associate with. But getting back to your question, get I want to ask you this. When God turned my life around, one of the first things he showed me, this is and I hope this doesn't offend whoever's watching, the Lord spoke to me so powerfully, and God speaks to me pretty powerfully in things. And the Lord showed me that he had his hand up on my life, even through sexual abuse. I often refer back to that. I wonder what God really allows into our lives. And the things I wonder the things that we go through, whether from the enemy or from the Lord, because it's just life, and sometimes it's just life. And what happened with me was just life. It was just life. Somebody did bad things to me, and I blame God for just life. But when the Lord spoke to me that day, I mean, it was He said to me, Ben, I had my hand up on your life, even through sexual abuse. God was right there, even through all that trauma, all those years of happiness. Hating him all those years of running from him, he was right there the whole time. It brought such comfort to me. Now it's made other people mad, so I don't share that with lots and lots of people. Because people that are in trauma don't know how to process that.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:17

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:17

And but it it brought healing to my life.

unknown 1:00:21

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:24

Just knowing that he was there even through the bad.

SPEAKER_08 1:00:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:30

And listen, I just he allowed it and I went through it and it brought me out.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:35

And I think that point is where people really get tripped up because growing up, we're taught God can do anything. And so they they believe that God can do anything. And when something like this happens, they don't have a way to understand God, you allowed this. Why did you allow this? You were there, you saw it. How could this have happened? And um, I mean, you've come out the other side and you can see how God is using it for the good. And if we live long enough, I think we will see how God uses everything for the good. I see it in my life, you know. I've said this before. My my story shows up on my couch all the time. Different pieces of my story is showing up, and I and I think this is why I went through what I went through so that I can help someone else on the other side, you know. But in the moment, it is very hard to understand, and this is where I feel like the church has an opportunity to help is that if we could message the reality of our adversary, and if we could message the reality of how he does attack us, being being filled with the Holy Ghost and washed in the blood and baptized in his name does not preclude us from attacks because we live in this world. And so, you know, um I feel like that would help us so much if we were really able to talk more about the ways the enemy does come against people and and the warfare that people are going to go through. It doesn't mean that God isn't there, and it doesn't mean he's passively standing by and saying, Oh, nope, you just need to suffer a little bit. I'm God and this is my this is what I have for you. Because people think of him as punitive and he's not punitive. But there is an adversary who does have power in this world and does have a seat in the church.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:56

We only think God is for us when when the good is in our lives.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:01

Right.

Love As Method: Walking With People

SPEAKER_05 1:03:03

But I'm in a place now where we're in the thick of it. I mean, we're I when I first came to Christ, I was just rolling on cloud nine for three years, and and then trials came, and then tribulations come, and then all these things start coming, and then you find yourself in a place that you're not aware of. And listen, I uh I see a huge turnaround within the church. So I'm not dogging the church, okay? I see a huge turnaround that is so it's so wonderful and so refreshing to see. Um but he is working all things out for our good. But where I'm at with him right now is it's not a good place. It doesn't feel good and it doesn't feel fun, and these these are not fun times in my life. And what I'm finding out is that's why I wrote on Facebook this morning, this is teaching me something that a a comfort place, a comfortable place in Christ would never be able to teach me.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:10

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:11

God is searching me down deep. And listen, there's things healing you. Oh it's healing, but there's yes, it is, but it's not fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:22

No, it's grievous.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:24

This is this is not where I'm at with God is not fun, but it is for my good.

SPEAKER_08 1:04:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:34

This process is for my good. This is what I hope churches. I wish I could um hear more of this in churches. I wish we could teach a little bit more of this, this place, because I'm growing and I'm getting grit here and I'm grinding here, and oh, but it is for my good. God is working it all out for my good. I know I'm gonna come out different.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:05

So can you talk a little bit about what you are going through in this process? Um I I can, sure.

Beyond Walls: Testifying Across Denominations

SPEAKER_05 1:05:17

I I I remember I remember being in Walmart when God turned my life around, and I saw two gay guys that, you know, were in my town, and one of them made a pass at me, you know, and God had turned my life around. And I went from wearing dresses and men chasing me, and to just saying, okay, God, I'm, you know, if you'll lead in God, I'll never do this again. And he began to take me on such a power, a quick God began to do a quick work in my life. Things just started happening so fast. And I went from all that to walking down the aisle in Walmart, and this guy made a pass at me, and he knew I was going to church. And I remember looking at him thinking, I'm gonna be sick. It almost made me physically sick. And I said, Don't you ever say that to me again, you know? I said, Don't ever speak to me that way again. I am not who I used to be. And I can remember thinking, My goodness, what is happening to me? You know, because listen, when you find yourself in these places, you're going through all kinds of emotions and you're trying to change your life, and God is changing your life, and the whole world's watching, and it is such a process that you're trying to figure out on your own, and you've got people speaking into your life, and then there's other people just talking. And and so I stood there that day in Walmart thinking, what in the world is actually happening to me? You know, the life that I lived and the things that I longed for and the love that I knew. I mean, I had a boyfriend for 15 years. That kind of love that I knew, I knew that side of life. And then to look at that in the face and think, I'm gonna be sick. What in the world is going on? And then I went from all of that for about three years walking through all of that, and then one day temptation came to me out of nowhere, and every single thing that I thought I had gotten rid of, gotten out of my life, um, gotten out of my heart, one day it just came flooding back to me. And then I thought, what in the world is going on? Then I'm looking at myself again and going, what is happening? Everything that I thought I had prayed out, gotten out, and and gotten over. One day I thought, where's all these thoughts coming from? What am I longing to go back to? What is happening? And then God began to God began to just take me down a road, and this is the road that I'm on today. He is searching my heart. I pray God searched the deep things of my heart. This is where he's teaching me how important it is to think on good things, to bring every thought into captivity, because the enemy is, I'm in a place where the enemy's at, and I'm also at a place where God is allowing me to be for this heart right here.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:48

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:48

You know, we have this and we have this. And so cleaning up years of mess takes time.

SPEAKER_08 1:09:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:04

Now I can relate to men. Um last week a man from California called, and then I had another guy call, and you would not believe, you would not believe the gay man. You would not believe the gay man reaching out to me. You would not believe it. It's unbelievable. The numbers are so high. There are so many from all walks of life. It's just being, how did you get out? How did you get out? How did you get out? How how we went out of this so bad and we're trapped. And then I remember thinking, God, why am I being tempted by this? God, why all of a sudden am I going through this? What in the world is going on here? But the Lord has just shown me some really powerful things through temptation. I'm learning what it means to be a Christian now, to be away from things, move on from things. And now I'm learning what it means when temptation comes. Now I'm learning how to process this and deal with this because this is not the life that I want. This is not who I am, but temptation has come to me. Now then, with temptation, is it lust from within?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:19

That's what I was gonna say, right? And that's where the enemy's trying to confuse you, right? Is it is this is this something in you that's doing this, or is it a spirit that is creating it? Right. And people get really stuck when they start because you do have to search yourself to question is this in me, or is it outside of me coming upon me?

SPEAKER_05 1:10:47

Yes. Am I oppressed? Am I what so this is where I am with God. I know he's put me. Listen, I'm telling you the truth. I know he has put me here for a reason. Um because I'm getting asked too many of the same questions by other men that I did not have answers for before. Too many are asking, and and I will have answers for them soon.

SPEAKER_09 1:11:13

So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:15

Um stick with God, y'all. Whoever's watching this, please stick with Christ.

SPEAKER_09 1:11:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:20

The place, the place that I'm in today, I see so many lives changed. I see so many people come to church, and I see so many lives being changed, not just from my lifestyle, but from whatever they've come from, because we've all come from listen, we're all a train wreck. We're all a train wreck. That's why I say y'all want to have some coffee because we're all train wrecks. But when I begin to see their lives being changed, we really just teach the good things of Christ and we relate to God loving us and caring about us when the good is happening. We don't really teach when you start going through trials and tribulations, and we we don't see so much of this side of things, and this side of things that I'm in is where I see people start walking out the back door and never coming back.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:07

Right, right.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:08

Because they they don't know how to process this part of what we're getting ready to go through.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:14

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:14

So we need a balance, we need a balance.

Marriage Isn’t The Fix; Holiness Is

SPEAKER_02 1:12:19

Yes, and I I I remember um years ago, my way of coping was different, and um I I remember how I would always get through things. I I was very promiscuous, but but that always kind of validated me and stuff. And I remember one time sitting on the floor in my store just praying and crying and crying out to God and just desperately needing God. I was I had already prayed back through, but I was trying to learn how to live. This was many years ago. And I remember just sitting there, and I it's almost as if I can see it all of a sudden, like this gush of wind hit me. It came from the right, it hit me, and immediately I thought, I'm gonna get myself up, dust myself off, I'm gonna go here, I'm gonna pick up on some guy, I'm gonna go do the thing that I always did before to make myself better. I had an immediate solution to feel better about where I was at. And I remember just in my mind thinking, that's not who I want to be. That's not what I want, God. I really just want you. And I remember just feeling the Lord say, just sit here, just let it pass, just let it pass. And I I feel like I just felt it leave when I resisted it, you know. But at the time I didn't know what that was. I didn't know. And and um I I just let that spirit pass. And now I know the things come upon people. It's just a spirit coming on them to push them into action, but it's really not us. When our mind is, when our mind is fighting for that the real truth inside of you, those emotions are false, those feelings are false, they're not God at all. It's not you at all. It is a spirit trying to persuade and move you into doing something that then you will condemn yourself over. And then you have to try to call crawl out of that trap of condemnation and beating yourself up. And I I really feel like one reason the enemy wants people to sin so much is because the battle to forgive ourselves and to allow the love of God and the grace of God to take it and let it go is maybe one of the hardest battles people face. Because they the Bible says if your heart condemns you, you know, w then how how hard is it for us to receive the love and forgiveness of God because we're living in our own knowledge of what we've done.

Discernment, Boundaries, And Speaking Up

SPEAKER_05 1:15:15

You know, because the bottom line is we just want to be loved.

SPEAKER_08 1:15:20

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:22

We just we really we just want to be loved. And do you know why that is? Because God is love. God is love, yeah. God is love, and we are all just we're just looking for love. And the enemy knows that, and so he comes with all these games and all these tactics and distorts and confuses and sends us all down the wrong way when we're just looking for love. And there's nothing more, there's nothing more powerful than the love of God. There's nothing that can there's nothing that can come against it and win, nothing can stand in the way of it and win, nothing can overtake it, none, nothing can and if we can walk in that, if we can walk in the love of God, there's nothing that can um there's nothing that can destroy us. And if we share the love of God, then the enemy has no power over us because nothing can overtake and win the love of God. You know, here I think about me, you know, I've been a gay man all of my life. All of my life I was a gay man. And then I found Christ. And you know, things start happening in your life, and I mean I'm going through just crazy radical changes, and um but here's here's what I told the other day. I thought you're just seeking love then. You know, I have I talked to myself, you're just seeking love. But I don't know how to be a husband. I I don't know how to be a father. I don't know how to protect a woman, or I don't know what it means to lead a family. I don't know any of I don't know anything about any of those things. And so that's what I the other day I was like, God, what in the world? And I'm just seeking love.

SPEAKER_08 1:17:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:45

I just want to be loved, you know?

SPEAKER_08 1:17:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:48

Um and the enemy knows that too. Yeah, he know he knows that too.

Words To Backsliders And Their Families

SPEAKER_02 1:17:54

There's a book called Um The Globalization of Addiction, and the whole premise of the book is love is the only thing that can solve the addiction process. And I just and it it's a clinical book, but it is it is so true. They say at the root of every mental health disorder is an abandonment wound or rejection wound. A break in love, basically. And I heard I heard you say that the Lord whispered to you and said that the enemy cannot love because God is love.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:37

That's exactly right. And look what happened. Look, look at the look what happened in your life. You were promiscuous because you you were really just seeking love. You're you're seeking something in your life.

unknown 1:18:50

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:51

The same with me, you know. I uh, you know, you know, one of the most powerful things God showed me is I was made to be submissive to a man, and I couldn't help it. I was a little boy, and I was forced to be submissive to a man when God created me to be equal to men. God did not create me, God did not create me to be submissive to a man, God created me to stand equal to men, and the enemy came into my life and forced me to be submissive to a man sexually.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:32

Powerful. That that's powerful.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:37

What this has done, the enemy took submission because we have to be submitted to God. I'm submitted to authority, my pastor. I'm you know, I there's an order to things. Yes, and I'm I'm submitted to my father. The word of God tells us submit yourselves one to another. And the word says to, you know, there's on there's one type of Healing that only comes into our lives when we submit one to another. So the the enemy took submission. The most powerful thing that's happening in my life today is submission. The more that I submit, the more God raises me up. And He made me submissive to a man sexually. I mean, everything that God does, the enemy turns around and tries to distort.

Closing, Resources, And Invitation

SPEAKER_02 1:20:28

Yes, yes. So and submission is learning all kinds of stuff, sis. I love that. I haven't heard you talk about that, but submission is a dirty little word in church culture. Oh. And and I think you're right, the more I'm on my own journey. Um and I I'm hearing this a lot, and I I know God has taught it to me, is to be submitted to your pastor, which was something that I really struggled with forever. I didn't trust people that they love me and have my best interest in heart. But now um yeah, and I w I wonder I feel like there's there's a big nugget there in that statement alone, just what you're learning in submission. I'll be excited to hear you talk about that more as you as you understand that more. Um Ben, my prayer always is Luke Luke 4 18. Jesus came to bind up the brokenhearted, open the eyes of the blind, set the captive free, and preach the gospel to the poor. That was the that was the scripture that was read and preached the night I prayed through because I identified with the broken heart. I heard you say that you said if someone isn't delivered, they cannot make a conscious choice to be a Christian. And in the context of that scripture, I always wonder as I pray for people in my personal prayer time Lord, are they wounded? Are they blind? Are they captive? Which one is dominant? Which one should I really be praying for? And because I think different ways that sin manifests reveal a different aspect of where they are in that process. And um when you said that in one of your testimonies, it it made me go back to think, okay, if if we are going to have if we as a church are gonna do a better job to see the lost saved and the backslider return home, um how then do we begin to pray? I I felt like when you said the captive, I thought that was so revelatory because I we know that people are captive to sin. We know that that you know you were totally in blindness being deceived by identity, right? Um but I just wondered if you could unpack that a little bit more because I again I think that's so revelatory that you cannot make a conscious choice to choose God if they're held captive.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:27

This is why we have to pray for deliverance. We have got to pray for deliverance. We are wanting to see results from people who are not delivered, they are absolutely bound. And um God, only God can deliver.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:47

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:47

Only God can deliver.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:50

But we have to pray the prayers.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:52

Yes, I mean it's absolutely, absolutely, because it's those prayers he will answer.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:59

Right, right.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:00

Prayer is the key. Prayer, listen, there's no magic pill, there's no magic solution, there's no potion. There it is prayer. It is prayer and only prayer. And prayer goes from generation to generation to generation. It never dies. Prayer never, ever, ever dies. It continues on and on and on and on. It is so important that we pray for people to be delivered. Um, we want people to walk in deliverance when they're not delivered. We really do. And listen, God came to me at home. God spoke to my mind and it instantly delivered me right then. God spoke to my mind and it just it hit me just like that. But listen to, I had to follow in the process. I'm walking in a process of deliverance. The more he shows me, then he shows me something else. I wasn't delivered and done. I was delivered and started.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:08

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:09

I mean, we just we just have started on this journey, but he came to me first and delivered me. I don't know why we want um it can't it can't be any other way.

unknown 1:25:22

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:22

Listen, we want people we want people to repent. We want people to repent and they're bound.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:30

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:31

I could not repent. I could not until Christ came to me.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:37

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:38

When He when He came to me and delivered me, and He delivered me first, and after God came to me and delivered me on that couch that day, because that's what happened to me, then I thought, oh my goodness. Then I had to make a conscious decision to follow in the process of Christ. Then I had to make a decision to repent. And and I remember after deliverance, still clinging to an identity that I knew and that I would loved and who I thought I was. Even after deliverance, I didn't know how to let go exactly of the identity. And the first step to letting go was repentance.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:26

Because your new identity hadn't been formed in you, right? I mean, he is forming it line upon line.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:36

The process. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:39

I I remember repenting, and then water baptism changed me more than anything. That makes all the apostolics upset that it's the truth. It was water baptism that changed me the most.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:51

So that process You said that when you got baptized, it was it was the most awful thing for you when you call that.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:02

Yeah. It was awful. It was awful. But it's the thing to this day, to this day, that changed me the most. Water baptism transformed my life. And I can remember all of them standing on the bank, and I didn't want to get baptized that day. I was still smoking. Uh, you know, God had was convicting me. I began to feel a conviction over smoking. I had given up cocaine, I had given up dresses, I had given up a fabulous lifestyle that I, you know, I had given up all those fabulous things in sin that we say, but I could not quit smoking. But I remember telling God when I repented, I said, God, when I get baptized, I'll quit smoking. It began to bother me. And so I never would go get baptized. Isn't it funny how the enemy will just make you hang on to one little thing? Whatever that is, to whoever, you know. And when they walked, I walked down to the creek that day. They wanted to take me to the baptismal. And I said, No, uh I have sins, I'm afraid won't go down the drain. And I meant that. And then um when we got to the creek, I said, I'm afraid we're gonna kill the fish, y'all. And because I knew there was something in me, there was just something in me that knew, but what I didn't know is what how I was gonna feel when I came out of that water. And they were all on the bank, excited and joyous and happy, and and I hope you had that experience. I hope, I hope you had the experience that you want, but I did not have that experience. And when I came out of the water, even through deliverance, even through repentance, I was still clinging to an identity. I was still clinging to something that I knew, something that I could uh uh trust in because that's all I knew. And I went down a gay man even after deliverance, when I came out of that water, I did not know who I was. Yeah, I absolutely, and it did not feel good to me. I cannot explain to you, I cannot explain to you how it feels to have an identity literally washed off of you, and everything that you thought you knew and that you believed in and that you stood for your whole life is completely gone, and you're standing there in a creek going, What is happening to me? What is going on? And I started having spiritual warfare the very minute I came out of the water. It was not a pleasant experience, it was not a fun experience for me, but it changed me. It changed me the most. This this is why I tell everybody go get baptized in Jesus' name because listen, it might not feel good to you because when you have every sin washed away and every thought and everything that's in your life, and it and the word says, as far as the east is from the west, he puts those sins in a sea of forgetfulness never to be remembered again. And you're just standing there going, What is going on? Who am I? Who am I? I I didn't want to jump up and stand up and clap, and I I really just wanted a cigarette, you know. I thought, gosh, I just really if I had a Marlboro right now, I ran to the house and slammed the door and I stayed in the bedroom a week. And the Lord showed me in that week, I didn't come out of the bedroom for one week after water baptism. The Lord showed me while walking around, about to run my head through a wall, what had happened to me and how important it was in my life, and how it changed me. And listen, water baptism changes us. It absolutely is so important and it changes us. And then after a week, the Lord showed me I had been going through spiritual warfare the very minute I came out of the water. You know, I I have a lot of Christians that tell me this today. They get baptized and they don't feel great. And they thank me for sharing this side of a testimony with them because they too have come from something they don't understand and they find themselves being washed clean and they don't know how to process this. They don't understand this, and I didn't either. I really didn't. And it's the enemy instantly comes to you when you've been washed in the blood and starts in on you right then. We need to be telling people listen, the enemy's gonna start on you, and now I can only share with Christians today my experience with Christ. I cannot share a good water baptism story with you because I did not have a good water baptism story. But I will tell you what, if you will follow the process and trust the process of repentance and the process of salvation, it will change your life. It might not feel good, but it'll change you. That's what happened to me. Changed me. So thank you, Jesus.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:38

So powerful, yes. Ben, what do you think? Um I want to talk to you after about that. Um what do you think? Why do you think the church is so afraid of deliverance? And how can we begin to help the church start to pray in that way, or you know, because deliverance has lots of faces, and um and you know, um, again, going back to the the idea that all we need to do is to pray that Jesus fill them with the Holy Ghost and that you know, Jesus do this or that. I I think about the scripture I've been thinking about a lot lately that says my people perish for a lack of knowledge. And I've really yeah, and I've really wondered, Lord, are we not praying the right prayers? You know, are are we are we really just putting so much faith in God being everything, being powerful, doing everything that we're not praying the right prayers. The Bible also says, you have not because you ask not. And I think, Lord, like teach me how to pray. What should we really be praying for this situation or for this person? Because the the overarching belief, I think, in our culture, church culture, is that you just have to ask God to intervene. You just have to ask God to move. And maybe, I mean, maybe that is enough, but I still agree with you. Like, there is a problem. Yeah. And so what would your message be to a church leader that might be listening that has shied away from deliverance, has shied away from really praying specifically in those ways for the sinner that's walking through the door that's obviously captive?

SPEAKER_05 1:34:49

Well, I want to share a quick story with you. I uh I spoke to a church out of state, and um I I just remember when I got done, the pastor literally fell across the pulpit and began to sob. He he cried so hard, and I was standing there holding his hand, holding the pastor's hand, the whole church looking at us, and he started apologizing to the church, and he said, I he said, after Ben's testimony today, he said, I am so convicted. He said, I have preached in judgment, I have walked in judgment, I have looked at, I have looked at you all in judgment, I have held you in judgment. I I'm being so honest with you. And he said, I have seen today that I have not walked in the love of God.

SPEAKER_09 1:35:44

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:45

And the only thing that I can share, and let me tell you something. That church just wept. I mean, healing began to take place in that church. Yes, I stood there and bawled. I can only share God like this. He gave me a revelation of the love of God. That is the revelation Christ gave to me. God has not called me to judge people, and so I fight that a lot. But rather, he's called me to love people, and there's nothing more powerful than that, and it will break every chain, but it is going to require every ounce of your being to walk in the love of God. And when people walk through the back doors, we need to be praying for deliverance, but we need to walk through the deal through that deliverance with them. They need us, and we don't, we just want to say, We're praying for you, God bless you. But listen, that's not enough. It's not enough to say, I love you, and I'm thinking about you, and I'm praying for you. Where are you on Monday?

SPEAKER_06 1:36:59

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:00

Where when they walk out of church on Sunday, where are you on Monday when they real because that's when they really need you? And on Tuesday, where where is your coffee date? And them just knowing they can connect with you, and sometimes they just want to talk and and and you don't have to do anything. But God has not called me to change people. Only only He can. He has given me a revelation of the love of God, and He's called me to love people, and I have to walk in that. And are you there?

SPEAKER_04 1:37:36

I'm here, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:37

Okay, I thought I got cut off. So loving people requires our time. It requires our money, lots of time, it requires resources that most of us don't have and we don't want to equip ourselves, it requires um energy that we don't want to expend. It it requires a lot of us and we don't often want to give that to others. We just want to say, God bless you. But if you want to see lives change, you'll get down in the gutter with people and you'll be there for people and you'll help people and you'll pray with people and you'll walk with people, and that'll change your life too.

SPEAKER_09 1:38:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:26

We just teach about the good things of Christ. So many times we just we teach on the good things and how he changes our lives, and but we don't really teach on the bad side of things. And that's where most of us are coming from.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:44

And so you uh uh life for you now, um, you have your business, you um you're very busy, I know, at Christmas time. Yeah, um, and you speak at all kinds of churches. How has that experience shaped you being in different church environments?

SPEAKER_05 1:39:05

It's the greatest gift Christ has ever given to me. Speaking in other denominations has changed my life. It has made so many apostolic people so aggravated, they just I I they don't understand, but it has radically, radically, it has changed every fiber of my being. It has let me know that we have divided ourselves with religion. That's not a God thing. We have done it to ourselves. It has I remember walking into the Baptist church one time and it was packed out. And you know, they they come from everywhere to hear my testimony, and I and I'm a horrible speaker. I know that's not one of my talents, and um, and then there were so many people they were standing out. Outside, there was just so many. And I walked into that back door of the little Baptist church, and the Holy Ghost just hit me as soon as I came through the back door. And the Lord said to me almost audibly, but he spoke it to my mind. The I just looked at that congregation. These are not Baptist. This is people.

SPEAKER_09 1:40:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:27

And when I got in there that night, I began to speak on water baptism, and we blew a pull up and baptized people in Jesus' name at the Baptist church in front of the front doors.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:39

Praise God. That's wonderful. Because they're there to seek the Lord. They're there hungry for God.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:48

The Methodists are more like my religion than I think. And, you know, I've seen God move in the church of God more than I've ever, I've seen more powerful worship services in the church of God than I've ever seen in the United Pentecostal church. I've seen, you know, I've seen so I've seen so many different things. And I tell I tell the apostolic people, they say, well, what's different about us? And I say, you all have the Holy Ghost, and most of you won't go share it.

unknown 1:41:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:21

You want to harbor it. You know, you have truth and you just harbor it inside your walls when the word says take it to them.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:31

Well, we've been taught separation for so long. Again, back to your point of not having balance, you know. True. To not not sharing it. Um let me see if there's anything else. I know that this was not um probably normally what you do when you come on a podcast, share your story from beginning to end, but I'm glad I wanted you to talk about the things that you talked about and and your journey coming out of homosexuality. We've got some people that is walking that process now, and um it's confusing, it's it's a struggle, but not because they don't love God and not because they're not committed to God, but because they just they're still trying to figure out who they are. When you go into it go ahead.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:28

No, I didn't mean to interrupt you. I'm sorry. I so many times our churches are are trying to push marriage on men coming out of homosexuality and women, and we equate being fixed as being married. Listen, we we've got a lot of educating to do amongst ourselves.

SPEAKER_08 1:42:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:51

We have got to educate ourselves. Um anyway, that's all I just had that on my mind while you were saying that.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:59

Yeah, yeah. Um no, I I agree because it's like the proof that you are, as you said, fixed.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:06

Which which blows my mind. That blows my mind. Which I get, I mean, you know, uh like I said, we're all searching for love, but you know, if marriage does not fix the problem, listen, I mean, we could we're living in a world where divorce is more prevalent than long-lasting relationships. So marriage is not the answer. Being holy is the answer, being Christ-like is the answer, and God will put everything in your life when your life begins to line up with Him. Right. Um we've got a long way to go.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:41

Yeah. We're we're yeah, but I'm so excited about the fact that it is I really see a change when I go out and say I love my church, I'm biased to my church. Um, you know, I and I think it's because I felt love there and acceptance there. And, you know, um when you walk, this will be my last question besides the two I always end with, but when you walk into a church now and you feel a spirit, that spirit of perversion or the that homosexuality, what do you do with that? Because I I imagine you can feel that.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:20

So I felt it yesterday, and you resist, and this is my prayer. God show me, God reveal to me when this is coming from the enemy or when the spirit is trying to come up on me. And I begin to pray immediately yesterday when I begin to feel, and that left me just like that. We have got to resist the devil. Yeah, we have to at I my earphones are starting to die. Um, but we have to resist the enemy when he comes because he is never going to stop coming. He is going to continue to come, resist the devil and he will submit yourself to God. Look, there's a submit word again.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:01

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:02

Submit yourself to God, resist the devil and he will flee.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:06

Right. And when you see it in the church, though, like maybe there's someone on the platform that you feel that from. Not that they're gonna come against you, but you just have an awareness that, oh, there's this is here. Does it make you angry? Do you just ignore it?

SPEAKER_05 1:45:28

I don't ignore it. I I I will I walked into a church one time and almost walked in on something. I literally walked into a church, walked into the bathroom, and caught almost caught something. A grown man gonna do something just for this instant, gonna do something. And this is what I tell everybody. If you're silent, you're part of the problem.

SPEAKER_08 1:45:49

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:52

What did you do? What did you do in that instant?

SPEAKER_05 1:45:54

I went straight, I went, I went straight and said, listen, this is what I walked in on. And I told him standing in the bathroom that day, I said, I'm going to leadership right now. I'm I'm telling you to I because I'm not intimidated that way. I'm telling you to your face, I'm going to talk to leadership about what I just walked in on. I don't want, you're not going to hear that he said, she said, I'm telling you to your face, I'm going to leadership over you. And I did. We have got to have boundaries, we have got to have lines of uh defense. And when something is crossed, we've got to go. Whatever it is. I mean, it doesn't have to be just that situation. Whatever it is, go go talk about it right then.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:39

So, Ben, I always end with two questions. Uming what you know about God now, what would you tell the backslider who has not uh found God in the way that you have?

SPEAKER_05 1:46:56

He loves you so much. He he wants the absolute best for your life. He wants you happy, he wants you healthy, he wants you succeeding, he wants you loving people. He truly, truly loves you and he wants the best for your life. He wants the absolute best for you. And if you submit to him, he will give you the desires of your heart. He really will. Um, he cares so much for you. He just God is so good, he's just the best thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:37

And what would you say to the parent or spouse of of a backslider that has not returned?

SPEAKER_05 1:47:45

Don't ever reject your child. Love your kids, um, treat your kids with respect, whether they're living right or not. Honor the honor them in godly ways. And um don't ever shun your children, no matter what they're going through. My mom and my dad loved me my whole life. They never treated me or my boyfriend any differently. They included him when they included me. He was never excluded, neither was I. And looking back, only now looking back, can I see the sacrifice my parents made to love me in a homosexual relationship? What what the rest of the world looked at them and thought, I can't believe you're accepting this. They were choosing to love me. And looking back, can I see the sacrifice that they really made to include me and include him? They treated him with the utmost respect they still do to this day. They still pray for him today. I still do too. But don't ever shun your kids. Love your kids, be there for your kids, be there for your family. I don't care what the church tells you. If you can't love your kids, if if a church ever tells you to shun your kids, I think I would probably get up and walk out.

unknown 1:49:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:17

I think I would. Because you have got to love your family. I know there's boundaries and I know all that. And I don't mean you know, don't cross those lines. But love your kids.

SPEAKER_09 1:49:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:30

And don't ever be ashamed for holding up for your children. Don't ever be ashamed for saying, look, this is my son or this is my daughter. I don't care if they're wearing a dress or not.

unknown 1:49:38

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:38

Listen, when they call you, go out to coffee, go do things with them, go out in public with them. Let them know that they can depend on you, that they can trust you, that the that you, you know, your mom, your dad, and you love your kids. And when you love your kids, you'll do anything for your kids. Um, including making sacrifices. Sure do love you, sis.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:02

Don't hang up. Um, we'll we'll sign off on the podcast. Um, so for all of you listening out there, thank you for thank you for tuning in. Follow Ben. You will be blessed. He he is also on YouTube. You can find his testimony on YouTube in lots and lots of places. And every time he speaks, there's another new little nugget of gold. Um, I really encourage you to listen. And especially if you know anybody who is in this lifestyle, trying to come out of this lifestyle, um, they will definitely relate to Ben's story and uh and understand the power of God through it all. And so um thank you for listening. And if you have a testimony, if you're a backslider, um, please reach out to us. We would love to hear from you. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:57

We are so glad you joined us. If you have a story of redemption or have worn the label of a backslider, we would love to hear from you. If you'd like to support our ministry, your donation will be tax deductible. Visit our website at Kathychastain.com. We hope you will tune in for our next episode.