Healing From A Broken Heart- Elizabeth Rocha: TRB Season 2 Episode 48

A church kid can know every altar call and still feel unsafe when life collapses. Kathy Chastain sits down with author Elizabeth Rocha for a raw, deeply personal story about how bullying, grief, sexual assault, church conflict, and workplace betrayal can quietly erode trust and push someone into a slow drift away from God. If you’ve ever wondered why God didn’t protect you, or felt like you were living on other people’s faith, Elizabeth puts words to that ache without offering shallow answers. 

We talk about what backsliding really looks like before anyone notices, the difference between transactional faith and a real relationship with Jesus, and why shame from church people can make “coming home” feel impossible. Elizabeth also shares how pregnancy became her breaking point and her turning back, leading her into a relentless search for Bible study, community, and spiritual mentorship. Along the way, she learns discernment, how to recognize God’s voice, and how to unlearn harsh prayer habits rooted in fear.

Tune in for the rest of the story!

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Redeemed Backslider. With your host, Kathy Chestane, Christian-based psychotherapist, and Redeemed Backslider. This podcast is dedicated to those who have wondered but are ready to return to the life-changing power of grace and the freedom found in Jesus.

A Third-Generation Faith Foundation

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Hi, welcome to the Redeemed Backslider. I'm your host, Kathy Chastain. I'm a Christian-based psychotherapist and a redeemed backslider. With me in the studio today is Elizabeth Rocha. And I actually met her at our recent unshackled conference here in Visalia. And we had a wonderful, wonderful turnout. And if you're watching this and you are a backslider, I would really love to hear your story. And if you would please email me at Kathy at the redeembackslider.org. I would love to talk to you. She was letting me know that there was backsliders in the audience that she was aware of. So I know that there were a lot there at the conference. I just didn't get a chance to personally talk with you. And so I would really love to hear your story. But I got to meet Elizabeth at the conference, and I was so glad that I did. And so today we're in the studio together, and I'm really looking forward to hearing her story. So welcome to the show, Elizabeth.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Thank you so much. I'm really, really glad to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

So I know nothing about you. That's generally how I like it. I like to just do it off of the cuff, you know, raw. And um so tell me uh tell me about your history. Did you grow up in church?

SPEAKER_02 1:49

So I did. I was born and raised in this, um, had a very, very strong background. It wasn't like I it was like, oh, like people were in and out that I saw inconsistency. Um, especially it was like a gener, so my grandma is the one that started it all.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

And so you're third generation. Okay.

Bullying For Believing At School

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Yeah. So she came in, um, she was Catholic, came in um with this her children, and um it was it was kind of from there, like there, the whole trajectory of of everything kind of shifted. And um, so I grew up when my I would stay at my grandma's house, I saw the prayer meetings. Like I it was just normal to me, like literally seeing there was people that came in possessed, um, that I saw her like get out. She was not afraid that the woman would take on, she was a dainty little old lady, but she would take on, she was not afraid to take on any person from the spirit realm that was coming up against her. And so I saw that, and that was normal to me. And so I had that strong foundation.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Um and did you grow up locally at a local church?

SPEAKER_02 3:05

And did you go to a Christian school or did you so I didn't go to a Christian school, I went to a public school, and that's where I faced a lot. I was actually bullied because of my faith because I would tell I was the only I went to a very it wasn't a private school, but it was a country school. And so it was we literally, there was less than 200 kids in the whole school. Oh wow, and that was K through eight. Wow. And um I remember like everyone there was actually pred predominantly Catholic. And so when they no one had ever heard about Pentecost. So when I would talk to them, I was bullied really bad.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

And um what grade was that?

SPEAKER_02 3:44

That was third. Oh, in the third grade, I was starting at third grade, and I was like known as the G like words that I was just like I you typically hear in like movies or something, you're like, Oh, that doesn't happen in real life. I was like, No, I experienced that. I was known the Jesus freak. Yes, I was known as the Jesus freak, I was known as the church girl. Um which today I think would be a compliment. Yeah, well now, and I'm like, that's that's fine. Like, you go go ahead. I'd rather be called that than what they're calling everyone else these days.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

But when you're young, it's it really makes an impact.

Church Split And Losing Community

SPEAKER_02 4:19

Oh yeah, it did. It was mentally draining, um, but I loved it. And I would, it's funny because like as I got older, I started getting more involved in church. And so I loved to sing. So when I was old enough, I joined the choir, and then I was on the praise team. And then there was um a ministry at where I grew up, it was called Holy Hands, and so um it's different everywhere else, like they what they name them, but it's they um do ministry like through sign language. Oh and so a lot of groups around here, and we would actually get together like with people from around the county and up around California. Um, so I was we were traveling at at that time, going and ministering in other churches, and I would miss school. So that was like seventh, eighth grade, and so I was heavily, heavily involved. Um and then there was a few things that happened. We it our pastor ended up leaving. He he went to go, I think, take over his dad's church, and so everyone kind of broke away.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Was there a replacement pastor that came in or did the did the church split?

SPEAKER_02 5:32

Did that it was um so the I think the old pastor of the church took over. Um, but it was like we I think everyone would just they had we had such a good relationship with him. So when he left, we kind of felt like a sheep, a sheep without a shepherd. Yeah. And what what do you do? Like you scatter.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

Right.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

And so um, yeah, it that was hard. That was hard on me. And so um having to go to a different church, and I felt like kind of rebuild that foundation again because I was like, oh my god, like everything that I had grown up in, like the the choir, the praise team, the ministry, all of that ministry, it was just with in one day, just stripped. And so I was like, wow, like why? And so that's I think that's where the questions started coming in. Like, why? What grade was that? I was 14, so I was a freshman in high school.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Yeah, that's that's so hard. And were the questions answered for you? Like, was there transparency with ministry and and the congregation, or was it there they were transparent enough for I was transparent is transparent, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

Then it was then no, it wasn't transparent. There I I think it's because they didn't want to cause any issues. Um But yeah, there was a lot that that happened.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

We were just like and it's all like they don't it's all like water under the bridge now, but and for people at home, I have no idea what church is and don't tell me. Um I have no idea what church it is, but no, uh we went through a church split when I was young, 11, I think, and um and it was very hard, very, very hard. And a lot of people stopped going to church after that.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

I mean there was there was a lot of people that stopped. They stopped either they left, um, or they just stopped going. Yeah, like and it was so that was hard seeing other people too, where it was like you just left, like you didn't like you didn't even try to find anywhere else. Like, and so it's that was hard too, because it's like the people that I did have, because I didn't have anybody at school, I only had that community of faith in my church, and so that was stripped away. So I was like, I have no one to talk to.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

So why do you think you guys didn't like stay when with a new pastor came in to where the people that you all knew and grew up with would still be there together?

SPEAKER_02 8:08

Yeah, they um my I will say my mom and dad, they were um they didn't make like rash decisions. They would wait a couple weeks and they were like, okay, no, like we really need to pray about this. Like, if we're gonna stay, then we're gonna stay. Um but if we're gonna go, it's gonna be because whatever we do, it's God tells us what to do, not because we have emotions or we're emotionally vested in this, like it's no, we're gonna let the emotions die down and then we're gonna pray and see God about it and see where it leads. And they fa and it's funny because even me and my my sister um at the time we were just sitting there and I was like, I don't feel like it's I don't feel it here anymore. Like it's it's just different. And my mom and my dad said the same thing. They're like, we're we're kind of feeling the same thing. Like it's it's time for us to leave. And so now it was the hard part that we were like, but where are we gonna go? Where are we gonna go? Yeah, and so that was that was a big part of that. I would say that was um I don't know, it was a it was a traumatic time, it was a traumatic experience.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Shaky, yeah, you know. Um yeah, I get it. Yeah. So then so then what? So you're 14 in freshman in high school, you guys go through a church split, and then and then what happens for you after that?

Grief After Grandmother’s Death

SPEAKER_02 9:35

Yeah, after that, um Were you in public school at this time then? Oh, do you know what? I'm getting my timelines mixed up. I was 16.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

I was six okay, so this is how I remember. My grandma passed away when I was 15. And so seeing that, I was already going through a depression at the time because I saw her. I saw I actually saw her pass away. It was the most beautiful thing I saw. Um I knew I know she saw God because we were in the room with her, and it's like they said she would not wake up from hospice, um, but she did, and she opened her eyes, and it was like someone called her name, and she just looked up and she put the biggest smile on her face and just wow, put her head down and passed. And so we were like, Oh my god, like we know, we know she saw him. Um, so that was that, and a few months later is when he said he was leaving. So it was like back-to-back two traumatic things that that happened. So I remember with my grandma passing, that really I would say that's where the question started. Now, because I was like, wait, there was something else that happened. I was like, Oh, that was it. So, what were the questions? I didn't understand why he wouldn't heal her because she had um she had diabetes and it was causing the circulation in her legs. Uh it wasn't there. And so we saw her legs deteriorating, which caused her blood to be septic. And so they said, like, she has days, like it's there's there's no and I was just like, no God, like you can like, I've seen this woman like serve you, like there's no way you're gonna leave her, like there's no way she's gonna go out like this, and so I was like, no, but she was like I already had peace with it, and it's like she knew she was going, and so she was trying to make things right with everybody, like she was literally calling everyone into her home and just telling them, like, I want you to forgive me. And I was and I would get mad. I'm like, Grandma, like, what are you saying that for? Like, I called her mom, but I'm like, mom, I go, why would you say that for? Like, no, like God's, you're not going anywhere, you're not going anywhere, and she's like, and she would just be quiet, and I'm like, oh, but it's just like I knew. I'm like, You're you're gonna go. And I just I didn't understand because I was like, I mean, I was only 15 at the time, but I knew enough scripture where I was like, yeah, I was like, no, like I've like I know people, like I go, like Hezekiah. I was like, God, like you said, get your house in order, you're gonna die. I was like, and then you you turn, yeah, 15 where I was like, God, you just give her enough. I was like, and um no, and I I think with I don't know, even with that, like I I think it's just sometimes like my my grandma ate horrible and she refused to change. And so it was like that's kind of like your the consequences of when they told you not to do stuff and you kept doing it. And she would always say, She's like, I'm not gonna change. And so I'm like, Well, you're like when you're coming from even if it's eating, I was like, You're already coming from like an unrepentant posture. I was like, um I was like, I felt like God was like, You're gonna she's gonna end up back here, like because she's not gonna change. But um, I felt like the impact that she needed, God was like, You're I I'd keep you here if you if your purpose was not fulfilled. But she fulfilled it and she did what she was called to do. And so he was like, I I felt like that's the way I saw it where he was like, I your your times you you did well with the time I gave you.

Assault And A Shattered Sense Of Safety

SPEAKER_01 13:25

So that's when you started to question God. Clearly, you have a piece about it now. Yeah, now looking back, and then with the um church split, what else did you start to question? Like, where did your descent into backsliding come in?

SPEAKER_02 13:42

I would say with that, with the with the church split, I felt like I didn't have safety at school because of the people that were already bullying me because of my faith. And then I had um some other stuff happen at school. Um oh god, I don't know if anybody knows this. I don't even know if my mother knows this, but I was um I was assaulted at school. I was sexually assaulted by one of the football players. And um I remember going to my sister and she ended up calling one of my cousins, and he was and he just said, I'll handle it. That was I don't know what he did, but that boy came back to school terrified, and um he apologized and everything, but um it was like I already felt that I wasn't protected there, and so my my church was safety to me, and then it was like the safety net broke, yeah. So I was like, I feel like you're leaving me, like I feel like everything around me is crazy, like all because my grandma was my safety net for my faith, and then the church was my safety net again for like I think everything, which I feel like was a bad thing.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

Do you think that was your identity? I mean, you're calling it a safety net. Do you do you think that I don't want to put words in your mouth, but do you feel like um that's your place of belonging, I guess? Yeah. Maybe not identity, although it could be both, but no, I know I think place of belonging to where if something's not working out for you here at school, at least you had this over here. Yeah. And it was having anything over here would leave you kind of empty.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

Yeah. No, it it was because everything that I did identify myself with, like, oh, I sing or I do this, I do this, it was all with the church.

SPEAKER_05 15:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:42

And I didn't have that at school. Like, and it's funny because even my friends at school that didn't believe, um, they actually weren't believers at all. Like they, I think it's agnostic where it's like they believe something's out there, but they don't know what it is. Yeah, I think it's but yeah, so they would even tell me, like, we don't know what it is, but like we know Elizabeth has something, like whatever it is that she has, like, she's got it. Like, I question other people that are like, Oh, I'm a Christian. They're like, but Elizabeth, like, not like if I ever need anything, like I'm going, I'm going to hurt. So that was my identity, though. Like, while I was like, oh no, I'm the girl, like I'm the Jesus girl.

SPEAKER_06 16:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:18

So um, but I think the problem, which it was so easy, or why I started questioning and it was so easy for me to crumble, is because I was depending on everyone else's faith.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:29

So it was the faith of my grandma that kept me up until she passed. Because if it was like, oh, if you need prayer, you go to grandma. If you need to learn something, you go to grandma. And then if it wasn't that, then it was like, oh, you go to pastor, you go to church.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

And I think that's easy to do. It was easy. When you grow up in church to, you know, because it's part lifestyle, part, you know, part culture lifestyle. And then, you know, you have a real relationship, but you're not really walking on your own yet.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

Yeah. And so I was a I was gonna say, even though I grew up in this, like now looking back, I was like, oh, I was a baby for a really long time because I was feeding off of everyone else. I was they basically that's being bottle fed. Um, and you're dependent on which can be a bad thing because they're only gonna give you what they can serve.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Right.

Workplace Betrayal And Walking Away

SPEAKER_02 17:21

And so it's like that's when it's like, oh, you start wondering why am I sick? Like when it's like, well, who are you, who are you allowing to feed you? And um that's when it was like, oh shoot, like I I actually have to start praying for myself. I have I have to start seeking God for myself. Um and that's when it I think started to shift, but I would there was still a lot of disappointments that came. Um, so I did see God still in my life. There was a lot of doors, blessings, but I never really at this time through the years that passed, I never had gotten over my grandma and my pastor, because at the time I still didn't have the understanding of it. Um but I ended up getting a job. So it's kind of like one of those things where it's like, oh, like there's still trauma there, but good things kind of bury it.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

And so um I got a job that I had been waiting for, and it it broke me. That was I'll say the straw that broke the camel's back. Um it's uh I I loved it, but it was the people there, and I had some people do some very ugly things to me. Um again, I was being sexually harassed at work. Um and the guy became very upset when I was like pushing him away and just was ignoring him, and then there was these other guys that I just didn't tolerate them. They were very like dominating and narcissistic, and it was like, if you don't do what I say, I'm gonna basically make your life hell. And I stood up to them, which they all kind of I guess got into a little pack and they like literally conspired against me and set me up, um, not even set me up, they set things up in a way to lie about me and get me fired. Um, but what they did could have put me in prison. And so it that was my breaking point where I was like, How could how could you let this happen? Like like I like I felt like Joseph, like being lied on, and I was going everywhere trying to find another job. They were bashing my name so bad, and that was something that was what hurt the most because all my life I had I had had an amazing reputation, like I had no blemish on my name. So for them to come in and do that, I just felt like okay, 20. I think I was 25 at the time. I was like, 25 years of hard work. You just you ripped out from me, and you're making people like even my coworkers were like like they were having a hard time with it because they're like, no, like what the heck? Like we know, and they even said they're like, we know they were gonna do this to you because you ran they all told me they're like you rattled a hornet's nest, and so it was it was hard. It that was like where I kind of stepped away where I was like, I I can't because you felt like God wasn't showing up for you, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

So back to the being unprotected, yeah, and that's what it's always been.

SPEAKER_02 20:58

It's a matter of me feeling unsafe.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Yeah, that's so interesting.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

Yeah, and it was, and I'll say because there is even in my own home, um, my mom has never walked away, but my dad actually did for a period of time. So my dad was a backslider, he's back in church now. Um, and even that period of he struggled with his faith because I remember when we were really little, we lost our house. And that's when he walked away because he said he remembers breaking down. They were the, you know, they put the eviction notice and they were they had to file bankruptcy and they were repossessing all the cars, and people were just treating us so ugly during that time. Um and I remember my dad was saying he went to like a corner of the house and he was crying. He was like he said he just remembers telling God, I would never do this to my kids. And that's where he walked away. Yeah. Yeah. Some so he Ended up coming back here, he has his own story. I'll probably tell him to call him to call you. Um, because he knows more about like what was going through his mind. Um, but even seeing that again, it's it's always come back to safety. But in the years that he was backslid, like I saw a lot of tension between my parents, um, between the one who is trying to stand.

Depression And Seeking Safety Elsewhere

SPEAKER_01 22:23

Is tension a nice way of saying it? Yeah. I mean it's a nice way. The reason I'm asking is because for you to kind of reverberate feeling unsafe through each of these scenarios, that comes from a very core feeling of not feeling safe. And that that comes, sorry to say, most of the time in the home. Yeah. And so um, you know, I know no one ever wants to talk about other people's story, but I I think that it happens, you know, there's marriages are not easy and they're definitely not perfect, and people make mistakes, but um, but for you to come back to that core feeling of not feeling safe, that's huge. Yeah, and it's huge.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

It was, and I just remember um honestly my dad, he was never abusive or anything like that, but he just he got angry a lot, yeah, and he would yell. So um, being a kid, hearing your dad yell, of course, you're gonna be like kind of shrink back and scary for kids. Yeah, yeah. And my dad is massive, like he's six three, like, and I would tell people that, like they thought I it was a joke, but I'm like, my dad is six three, like 200 pounds pure muscle. And they're like, Okay, sure. And then they would see my dad, and they're like, Oh my god, like your dad's scary. And I'm like, he's really not, like, but of course, when you see him, like, I know he's my dad, but it it would scare us. And um, I just remember, so that was um when I ended up leaving. Uh, that's that's when things really started to crumble because I looked for safety. And um kind of led to That's what we do. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

So we look for the thing you need the most. Yes.

Pregnancy And An Ultimatum With God

SPEAKER_02 24:22

And I can I felt like, well, I didn't find it in God. So um honestly, for a while I went through a major depression. Um I didn't talk to anybody, I only talked to the people that I knew because I was like, I don't trust anybody, like I don't trust anybody else. Um but ended up, I'll say, reconnecting with someone, and that's kind of what led me to getting getting pregnant with my daughter. It's always a boy or a girl. Yeah. So I yeah, I ended up getting pregnant, and then that was I'll say that was like actually what led me back to God, which is odd, because I felt like that was like I was already broken, but that was like the shattering point where I was like, God, like I oh my god, like I I can't do this anymore. Like I can't keep I knew, I think for me, which was like I can't keep going down this path because it's gonna just get worse, worse, worse, worse. So, in that sense, I was the prodigal son where it's like I came to my senses of like, what am I doing?

SPEAKER_01 25:37

So when you walked away from God and fell into this relationship, did you stop praying? Did you stop talking to God? Did you feel like you had walked away, like literally? I so some people do feel that, you know, and others don't. Yeah, I'm so backsliding is this continuum that everyone does it differently.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

Yeah, honestly, I think I what I can relate it to was like I almost end now thinking of it, I was like, I can relate it to the prodigal son, where it was like, Well, I'm going to where I feel, I think for him it was like feeling where he was needed and where he was like, Oh, I'm good here, like because everyone's around me. And so I felt for me, it wasn't a feeling of needing, but it was a feeling of safety. So I felt where I was safe with this person. And I just remember I was like, Well, you're giving me what I need. And um what was it about him that made you feel safe?

SPEAKER_01 26:34

What did he do that provided you with that sense of safety?

SPEAKER_02 26:39

I've he's he's someone that I've known. So it's familiar, yeah, familiar. And so I remembered um growing up and being like it's that was always someone that I was like, oh no, like no, and he's done that before, where it's like I knew when someone messed with me, like it was like, oh, you're gonna have to deal. Like you don't want me to tell this person. I was like, because they will deal with you. So with that, like it was it's and it's funny because like I've always said that since I was a kid. I was like, I always feel so safe with you. And was he in church? Um at one point.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Did you meet him? I mean, did you know him from the past because of church?

SPEAKER_02 27:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 27:25

So at one point, yeah, he was. Yeah. But you know, just again, everyone with their own reasons as to why they left. And um when I remember when I just when I got pregnant, um, he said he wouldn't be there. So that was even more where I was like another safety net just like broken. And so I was like, and I heard, you know, just the story everyone says, like, you need God, you know, you need to come back. And it was just like Were you living with him? No. So were you living at your mom and dad's yeah, and it was so this was a hard, and it again it was devastating to my mom. So he um, I was 28 at the time, but because I literally I was like, I was God was my everything. So I had never dated. Um, so I wait, wait, wait.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Hey, you're 28 and you have never dated. No. Okay. And so he, I was that's because so whoever sent me the message, please don't interrupt your guests when they're talking. I really try hard not to do that. But if I don't ask in the moment of this topic, the conversation keeps going and then it doesn't seem right to come back around to it. So I apologize in advance. I'm interrupting because there's a lot of questions here. So um, so I'm gonna just nitpick a little bit on this subject because I think that for people who grow up in the church, especially the apostolic church, we everyone kind of dates within your church. Yeah, no, you know, apostolic doctrine. And so 28 is pretty old to not have ever dated. So you were super naive, very inexperienced, yeah. Um, to the ways of the world, to the ways of men, to understand how how to date. Yeah, you know, we just don't give our heart overnight, yeah, you know, and expect it to be love, but that's probably what you did, right? Because it's the ideal, it's the fantasy, it's it's the way we're taught God loves. So so he was the first guy you dated.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

He you know, he was my so he was actually my first everything. He was my first kiss, he was everything. And well still because I haven't been with anybody else, so he's the only. So he's my first and only. But um yeah, so that was like that was heartbreaking um to me. And I just I think I remember well, I think it was I'll say the turning point was when I I remember I was holding my stomach and I was just I was crying and I was just like I I think it was not really an ultimatum, but kind of giving God an ultimatum because I I remember crying and I said, If you do not show me who you are, I'm done. Like I have to see you for myself because I refuse to teach my child about a God I have not seen. And it was at that point I started seeing things change. Um it wasn't overnight, it it still took some months, but I was look, I was actually looking for a group to be a part of. I was looking actually for a Bible study group, and no one was accepting me. And I didn't know, I still to this day I don't know why. Well, now I know why, because I know he was leading me to where I was supposed to be. But I was literally knocking on every door. I was going to different religions.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

What what do you mean no one was accepting you?

Rejected By Groups And Searching Everywhere

SPEAKER_02 31:15

So I would call them and they're like Who's them? Like whoever it was I heard was doing a Bible study group, I would contact them and say, like, hey, can I be a part of it? And they would either tell me no. How does someone say no? I don't know. I don't that was that was my question too. I was like, is and they would give me no explanation. So I was like, Why? And I was like, why? And I so I in my head, I was like, Mom, like, is it because like I'm pregnant and I'm not married? Like they don't want somebody you're around. Like, I started internalizing it.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

And yeah, why wouldn't you internalize it? Yeah, it doesn't make sense scripturally, yeah. You know, or fruit of the spirit. It's just none of it makes sense that someone would say no. Yeah. No, and so I mean I'm sure there's reasons, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

I still don't know what their reasons were, but like I said, I started looking into different religions. So it was like I was going to everyone. I was going to the Catholic Church, I was going to the Baptist, I was going to the Trinitarians, to the assemblies of God. Like I was just desperate at that point. And I think that's why God was able to get a hold of me, because he was like, okay, it was at in my eyes, it was desperation. But I kind of think of that scripture where it says, When you seek me with all of your heart, then you'll find me. And so it was like to other people, and I had my family telling, they're like, Why are you looking at other religions? And they're like, You're because I told them, I was like, Oh, I'm going to the Baptist church. And they're like, I was like, it's not that I was looking for something else, but I was looking for someone that had something that, and our church didn't have it. Um, they didn't actually have a Bible study at the time. And so I was just looking for for anything to be a part of. I just needed a community. And there was um a church online that I had seen.

SPEAKER_01 33:07

Everybody needs that.

Everything Beautiful In Its Time

SPEAKER_02 33:08

Oh, yeah. There was a church online that I had seen. And I remember during this time, I just had people like they would randomly come. Well, I say it was random now, looking back, I'm like, no, that was God. Um, but they would come up and they're like, I don't know why. I don't like, I don't know what you're going through. I don't know what your life is like right now, but I just feel like God keeps telling you, or God told me to tell you, uh, He makes everything beautiful in its time. And I was like, okay, okay. And then like by the third or fourth person, that's when I was like, okay, I th I I think you're talking to, I think you're talking to me now. And about three months after searching. Excuse me. Uh no, you're good. Um, about three months after searching, the the online church, they had actually closed their their groups, but they had reopened. And when I saw it, there was a group called Everything Beautiful in Its Time. So I was like, Oh, I have to be a part of that group. Like I've been hearing everybody tell me this, like it has to be for this. And the host ended up telling me, it was a year later. So I'd been a part of this group for a year, but it was on like I guess the anniversary of me joining the group. She told me, she goes, When did you start asking God? And I was like, Oh, it was back in like June or whatever. And she goes, She goes, Did you know? She's like that this group was not this name. She's I've had this group for four years. And I was like, Oh, no, I didn't know that. She goes, No. She goes, it was called Barbara's B Group. She goes, because it was just easy, like something simple, that's my name. She goes, but in June, she goes, God started telling me you need to change the name. She says, because it closed down. She says, we have a break where we start like regrouping, think about what we're gonna do for the next semester of when the group meets again. She goes, and God told me you need to change the name. She goes, and I was fighting him on it because I was like, no, like my group is so easy, it's one of the first that you see. Like people can just easily sign up. And she said, she goes, No, she's he told me. Oh, and it still gets me to this day. I can't say it without crying, but she told she said that he told her, he was there's a girl that that's looking for you, and she can't find you if she's under if you're under this name, you have to change it for her. He was because she needs you. He was and she's gonna know it's me. He was when when she sees the name of this group, and she was like, Oh, okay, God, what do I name it? And he goes, Everything beautiful and it's time.

SPEAKER_03 35:42

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

So that's when I was like, Okay, God, like in the the months that I felt like were silent, because I was getting upset. I was like, you see me knocking on every door and you're still not moving. But when I saw that, I was like, Oh, okay, God, that's that's when I started learning patience.

Learning God’s Voice Vs Deception

SPEAKER_01 36:02

Did it um did it ever occur to you? Because I I feel like I fell into the same trap a little bit in putting all my expectations into God and never really taking into account our adversary. Yeah. Did it ever occur to you that you had an adversary that was, you know, trying to fight you and block what God was. I mean, I don't I don't think it occurs to us until No.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

Honestly, I think and again, I was starting to learn, like, looking back, how he says, like, my sheep know my voice, and another they will not follow. I had already at that age, because I was I'd gotten it from my grandma, I got it from my pastor, the church, everything, I was so practiced in other in hearing other people's voices that it was unit wasn't until this where I broke that I actually started looking for his voice. And so I think my ear wasn't tuned into it, where I was like, I even if he was speaking, I don't think I would have been able to distinguish what was his voice compared to on honestly, even the devil's like because um, like I I think I told one person, I was like, he's well versed in how God speaks. Sure. Like he he was before his throne, like before he fell. Like it's and it said that even before then, he would go up before his throne. Like, look at the story of Job. Yeah. And he's like, Oh, just walking to and fro. I was like, so I go, he's well versed. He knows how to sound like God. I was like, so it's that's why he's it's so easy to be deceived by him. I was like, but it's not until you really start having that relationship that now I can say, like, oh no, that's not God. Like, no, like I know that that ain't God. Even it doesn't matter with even if it's someone like in from the church that comes up to me and they're like, Oh, I feel like God is saying this. And I'll, I mean, there's a few times I'll laugh because my mom will like look at me like, I can't believe you said that. But I'm like, no, that's not God. And they get shocked and they're like, Oh, well, I just I was like, Well, I don't know what you felt, but it wasn't God. Like, I know my father's voice now. Took me a while to get here. I'm like, but I know my father's voice now, and I'll tell you that is not, that is not it. So I'm starting to find my ground.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

There's a good way to measure, and that is a it, you know, his voice will contradict what the word says. Yeah. And also, um, we we have to measure it against the fruit of the spirit. If it brings confusion, if it brings fear, if it brings anything other than the fruit of the spirit, it's not God. Yeah. But but people do mean well. They're not they're not, you know. I always just say thank you. Yeah. Then I give it to the Lord. Because, you know, some people have done that to me, and and people do do that a lot. It it does definitely cause problems and hurt. Um, but hopefully they mean well, they're not trying to be unkind.

Judgment From Church People And Shame

SPEAKER_02 39:22

Yeah. And I've had when I've had the unkind as well. And and it's unfortunate because even when I was, when I was going through that process of making my way back, um there were some people that I was like, oh, for sure, like I know that I knew them growing up, like they're gonna accept me with open arms, and I can't wait to see them like at camp meeting or at youth convention or ladies' conference, whatever it was, and just walking past me like as if I was someone they've never met. And I was just that was like how like I'm I remember when I was a kid and you were praying with me at the altar. Like you were there with me, like through junior camp and senior camp because I was with your kids. I grew up with your kids, and I'm like in your camp, I don't um some people admitted, I guess, as to why they they treated me the way that they did, or they to them their their words were why they reacted the way they did. And they said they're like, Well, because we thought if anyone would backslide, like never, it would never be you, like not Elizabeth. And so I was like, it's almost like they they had this expectation of me, and I failed. It's like I failed them, but I'm like, I'm I'm human. Like it's like I understand I maybe I wasn't gonna I guess if you expect me to fall, it wouldn't have been in this way, yeah. But um, yeah, because I even had like some one of my aunts, like she didn't believe it when we told her, and she was like, I swear, cause she's Catholic, she was like, I thought she was gonna become a nun and like and serve Jesus for the rest of her life. Um, but they like, I mean, even them, she was like, No, baby, like we're here, we're here for you. And so I'm like, these are good people. Like, these are good people. I was like, and you know, I was like looking for people that I I did see, you know, when I grew up with them in the church, and um, and some of them I'm like, your kids don't even live for God right now, and you're you're treat like you're treating me this way. Like that was in my head, you know. Of course, that was still like the hurt talking, and so that's what I wanted to say, but I'm like, but we do judge how people treat us when we're backs when we're a backslider, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

Um not you know, not not blaming or anything, but it does make an impact on the heart of those people. And w one reason I think they don't always want to go back to an apostolic church. Yeah, you know, there's there's a lot of people that are going to church that left an apostolic church that say, I'll never go back to that. And I think those are the conversations that are important to have because why? Yeah, you know, what what does it really boil down to why they don't want to come back to that?

SPEAKER_02 42:34

Yeah, and that and it's funny because I'm just like that. Like now I used to like, I'm not gonna lie, I was one of those people like on the on the other side, like I'll say my pre-backslidden era. Um I like I never understood. I'm like, how could you not come back to this? Like this is but then when I saw, I was like, oh, because this is yeah, I'm like, this is why. And and now like looking, like now looking at it, of course I was hurt at the time, but now it's just I when I see them and they're like, oh, like that's like no, like that's not me. And I was like, no, it it was that that is how you wanted to treat me. I was like, but that's okay, you know, just thank you for showing me who you really are. I was like, because now I don't have to question it. And I was like, it's and I just told my mom, I was like, at that time, of course I didn't see it then. I was like, but now looking back when you kind of when the season has ended and you're out of it, I was like, I just saw it as like the the wheat from the chaff. Like I saw I saw who was who was real and who wasn't. And so now I'm grateful for it. And so now I guess moving forward when I see people, I'm just like, Oh, you're chaff.

SPEAKER_01 43:51

Okay. Well, you gotta have grace for them. Yeah. Because people make mis still working on that. Yeah. Yeah. It it takes a while. And I, you know, it does it takes a while because the hurt is still there.

SPEAKER_02 44:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:05

You know.

SPEAKER_02 44:06

And I think that's like even with me, like I remember um a I'll say a pivotal point as well when I started because when I came back and God started talking to me and I really started learning his voice, um, he started saying things that I did not want to hear. Um like I had to deal with the trauma of my past. Cause he's like, he had told me and that it's kind of what started going with the book when I started writing it. Um where he told me he was like, I he's like, I can't, I can't bring you into the promised land still under the weight of Pharaoh's hand. And I was like, and in my head, I was like, huh? I was like, what? And of course I was playing dumb, but I was like, I I knew what he was talking about, and he was like, You can't, you can't go in to eat the grapes still smelling like Egypt. And I was like, and I was like, God, I'm not, and I told him, I was like, I'm not ready. Like, I'm not sure. What did you think you meant by that? I think that it was like you have some questions and I'm ready to answer them, but it's not gonna be the answer that you want. And so I was like, I don't think I'm ready for that then, and um with I I think because in a sense, it's just like when I started going like through through things, I remember through that group that I became a part of. There was actually a woman that I met that became my mentor, and she and I felt like God had said, She's gonna become your mentor. And she ended up reaching out to me. She's like, I feel like God's telling me to take you under my wing. And so I was like, Oh, and she was, oh my God, she was exactly what I needed. I still, she's still to this day in my life and so grateful for her. Um, but she was very um, she was very cut into the point where she was like, Elizabeth, we're gonna keep going in circles until you actually face certain things. She's like, and I'm not willing to to keep up, like we're just you're gonna be circling a mountain. And I'm like, oh, okay. And I remember I was like, okay, God, if you're telling me I need to do it, like just talk to me. So he talks to me mainly in dreams. And I feel like it's because that's where I have the least control. So I remember having a dream and I was at my childhood home, and I just stood there and I was like, I'm not going in. I'm not going in. And um, I just I heard a voice tell me, like, you gotta go in. And I knew I was like, Oh, this is a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 46:53

Was your childhood home, your grandma's home?

SPEAKER_02 46:56

It was no. So this was our home that I did when we got the eviction where my my dad had backslid. Um, but like I just remember like that. I always um I think especially because that's where like where my dad had walked away and I started seeing that tension. I always related that to like, oh, that was the start of all our problems. Yeah. And so I never wanted to think about it ever, because I was like, we that was a traumatic time for us, like getting kicked out of our home and our cars repossessed, everything. It was just such a bad time. But I finally went in, and I just remember seeing the house, and it was so dark, and it was just dusty, and like I just saw piles of boxes everywhere, and I was like, I'm not touching these boxes, like, I don't want to go, like, I don't even want to be here. And I saw a man standing in the corner, and he walked up to me and he goes, You're about to go into your next season, and you gotta decide what you're gonna do. And I just looked at him and I was like, Well, what do you mean? And he goes, You you're gonna have to decide what to do with these boxes because I can't move them for you. And it was when I realized, like, oh, okay, God, you're you're not gonna be the one to deal with this. You're telling me I have to. And so he was like, So you make a decision, he was either you're gonna carry all this with you, or you're gonna, you're gonna go through them. He was, but I can't move them. And so I knew at that point, okay, if I if this shows up in the next season, it's because I took it there. God didn't allow it there, I carried it there. And I just broke down and I was like, this wasn't my fault. Like a lot, and I just kept saying, I was like, there's so much stuff that happened to me, like it was not my fault. Like I didn't, I didn't ask for this. I was like, there's things that like I had to fight.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

I was like, that it they weren't my battles, other people, and he wanted you to know that, yeah, so that the little girl in you could heal.

SPEAKER_02 49:11

Yeah, yes, and so he just stood there quiet the whole time. And he just looked at me and he goes, You're absolutely right. And I was like, What? Because I was expecting, I'm not gonna lie, I was expecting kind of like no, like an explanation, like, no, Lizbeth, like there's sign. He goes, No, you're absolutely right. He goes, it wasn't your fault. He was all everything he's like that you see here, these boxes that you're that have everything that you've been carrying. He was none of this was your fault. He goes, but holding on to it is right, and I was like, oh, and it was like a just like a gut punch. And I was like, okay, he goes, if you decide to go through the boxes, I'll be here with you as you unpack each one. He's like, so if you decide to do it, you're not alone. And so I just started balling, and I in the dream I just started unpacking the boxes, and I woke up, and it's funny because through again, through that group, I ended up meeting someone and got connected to a therapist. And so it's like when when I was ready to face it, God was God was there prepared to to give me what I needed to face it. And I almost think of like Jonah when when he was thrown off into the ocean. It's like, okay, when you're ready to face it, that you're the problem, because he's like, Oh no, this storm's because of me. He's like, when you're ready to face it, he goes, Yeah you're gonna get tossed by the sea and it's gonna be a hard thing to face, but I got a fish waiting to save you.

SPEAKER_01 50:51

And that that's the shift from moving from being a victim and being a victim mentality to accountability, yeah, and realizing we have way more power than we think we do, you know, and and that taking responsibility for your actions and feelings and all the things, right? That's that's a shift and and getting moving away from victim mentality is life-changing.

SPEAKER_02 51:19

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 51:21

And the fear goes like it's scary to face all of that, but at the same time, when you know, like you said, that God is with you, you know, you you learn to kind of navigate that territory.

Hope In Egypt And The Blood Left Behind

SPEAKER_02 51:34

Yeah. And it was, and it was like even after, and it's funny because my therapist, she had told me she was like, You're gonna go through these stages, I guess. And I was like, uh, and again in my head, I was like, oh no, I think I'll be good. I'm not gonna go through that. And I remember her telling me, she's like, when you're gonna get through that stage where you feel, she's like, You may come, she's like to where you face all this and you feel like you're good. She goes, but even after, it's like, oh, okay, like I faced it. I worked through it. She goes, but you still might come through a period where you still feel hopeless. She was because it's like, well, where do I go from here? Like I faced it and I acknowledged it and I dealt with it, but it's like, now what? And that's that's actually what started me with my book when I ended up writing it, because I remember I was I was reading Exodus, and I remember telling God after I finished um the part where it was the 10th plague, and I was like, God, like you left. I was thinking about the Egyptians, and I was like, God, you left them with nothing. Like these were people, like, and I know we see it as like, oh, the Israelites were delivered, and I I know that they were they went through slavery and suffering and all these horrible things, but it's like when you go through those plagues, and it was honestly because of Pharaoh, it wasn't every Egyptian that was to blame. But I was like, you you see the story, and we always focus on that of like the Israelites, they went to the promised land and everything. And I remember telling God, I was like, I don't feel like the Israelite. I was like, I feel like the Egyptian. I was like, I feel like I'm looking around, and you know, you you're surrounded by basically the plagues that came because of your disobedience and your lack of faith or whatever it was that brought you there. I was like, and you're just I see just the ruins of my life and I know it's my fault. I know I'm the one that brought this on myself. I was like, and you look and Israel's gone. That only hope of redemption, they're they left. And so it's like the God that I would have called on, he left with the church. I was like, so I don't have the church to look to anymore because the people that I was looking to, they were ignoring me. So I'm like, I go, God, I go, you left them with with nothing. And I was just bawling because I was like, God, and I just felt like he said, He was no, I didn't. And I was like, Yeah, you, yeah, you did. Like, no, yeah, you did, and he was no, I didn't. And I started laughing because like, because now when I tell the story, I'm just like, I'm over here arguing, I'm arguing with God about his word. And I was like, and telling him that he's wrong. I was like, but I'm like, no, like I've read that story like over and over and over and over. I know how it ends. And he's like, I remember him telling me, he goes, it's not something that you that you read on the paper. He says, You gotta look deeper. He's what they call like reading in between the lines, he's you gotta look deeper in the story. And I was like, Okay, well then you're gonna have to leave me there. I was like, because I don't see it. I was like, I'm rereading it and I'm trying to look deeper, and I'm like, okay, was it this or was it this? And I remember the part where it was the 10th plague, and he started giving Israel instructions. And he told them, You can't take anything because when I come and I do, this is my last thing I'm gonna do, and it's gonna break everyone. It's gonna break the Egyptians. He's and they're gonna let you go. He's and you can only take what you can carry. And I was like, Okay, well, you know, can okay, I'm following. I understand. And so that's in this sense, I was like, this is where like I love talking to God because he's like, he starts asking me the questions. He's like, okay, well, what did they leave behind? And I was like, Well, I don't know, you said you could take what what you can carry, like I don't know. I was like, well, and so I started going through, I was like, Well, I know they took their animals, they took the kids, they took, I was like, I don't know, like maybe like like cloth, like maybe an overload of clothes, like because they figure like I only need someone because you can't take everything. I was like, I don't know. I was like, they you know, the the furniture, I guess, and and he goes, What did they leave behind? And it's like I saw someone walking out and I was like, Oh, their homes. And I was like, they left their homes, and he goes, What did I tell them to put on the door before the last plague came? And I was like, the the blood of the lamb. And he just told me like the the spiritual significance of that. He was like, I and I just remember that phrase, just it stuck with me. He was Israel took the silver and gold, but I left the blood in Egypt. And for me, I was like, I knew what the blood symbolized, and I was like, that was that was my redemption, that was my salvation. I was like, is that in the midst of everything there the the blood was still there? And it's funny, because even like when I told some some people they're like they were just like, well, it was only for a night. So it didn't, and I was like, oh, then you're missing it. I was like, you are totally missing the the point of that. I was like, because they're when when you come from that brokenness, and like I said, just being surrounded by just the like just the utter destruction of everything that sometimes like it wasn't even your decisions too, because it was Pharaoh. Like sometimes it's other people that brought this on your life. Right. And you're wondering, how do I even get past this? And you finally see there's there's one thing that they they didn't take with them, and that was because they weren't meant to take it with them. That was for me. And so that that's what kind of started me on like okay, I I actually it's it started as a poem, because that's I've loved to write since I since I was a kid. I always wrote poems and stuff. So I started as a poem, and then my mom's actually the one that's like other people need other people need to hear that. Like, you need to, why don't you write your story? Like, write your story and how this like came. And so that's when I was like, okay, so uh I actually wrote it out, and it was this I actually wrote out while I was pregnant, and um it was released, I think like a couple, it was like three days after I had my daughter, and it was like even in the midst of that, like I saw God's grace and his favor. Um, because one of my favorite stories in the Bible was Esther ever since I was little. When it was one of my favorite stories, and I didn't actually didn't know what I was having because I chose, I chose not to find out. It's like I wanted to be surprised, and I for I just felt for some reason to look up when her her due date was when I was gonna be having her, um, according to the Hebrew calendar. And I found out she was gonna be born on Purim. Oh wow, and so that was actually her her date. That was and it changed.

SPEAKER_01 59:16

Not the day she was born.

The Prodigal Son And God’s Protection

SPEAKER_02 59:17

Yeah, and so it's crazy because um it changes every year. So it can be in February, March, sometimes April, like it switches. So um her birthday actually landed on Purim. Wow. And so it was like, uh, so her middle name's Hadassah. So like it's even in that, I was just like, God, I feel like even in I think my feelings of like, God, I am am I like am I do you even see me as I was? And that's all I thought of was like, oh, I got I feel like that was God telling me, like, no, you still have favor, just like she did, she got favor with the king. And so I was like, okay, that was that was me and my baby. Like she found favor with the king as well. So that was really a it's you you see God's hand. That's when I said, like, I'll I'll see so I still saw God's hand, um, even in the midst of my my disobedience and me running away from him. It was like I always looking back, I was like, man, God, you you still never left. Like you He doesn't, and He doesn't, and it's like it's I think it's at the time it was even hard for me to comprehend because I was like, why? Like, why would you pursue someone that doesn't want you? Like, or that was running away from you. And it's like it's that's I think that's when you start I I started understanding what love really was. Um, because I didn't have an understanding, it was always conditional, right? And this was was like, oh, okay, this is what it's like to love someone that doesn't want you back. That is literally like no stay away from me. I was like, and to continue to pursue them and do things for them without literally without them knowing. I was like, and kind of being like the anonymous person in the background, um, and looking back after it's done and being like, oh, that was you, like you were the one that was doing that. Like what? Like how and so I just it's just amazes me. Just the still to this day, I'm like just the love of God like I that I've experienced that I'm just like I I can't, I I I can't imagine I don't know, like I I can't imagine like going like walking away again. And I can't say never because I'm like, okay, like it's I won't say never say because I said that before, I was like, I would never, and then I ended up there. So but um I think that's why even when I started coming back, I was like, I can't just jump in because that's I've always blindly trusted everyone else. I was like, and that's what got me into this. I was like, so um, I knew to walk at his pace, yeah, not at the other pace that other people told me I should be at. Because I did have that where they're like, you grew up in this, you should know better. And I'm like, well, you know, it's in his timing, and it's it's fun to say that when it's like when it's on their end, we're like, oh, you know, just on God's promises and when he does stuff for you, and it's in his timing. But then when it's on the other end of like people are going through a process and they're not at where you think they should be, and you say, Oh no, it's in his timing, then it's like, oh you can't you kind of make make that stance of like now, they really gotta like, oh, because I remember telling you that. So now it's like they gotta remember that too. So, but I've I'll I'll say like and now I have a really good group of people around me that are very patient, and even them, they're like, We've noticed a change, and and seeing it internally and knowing like that's exactly what Jesus said too. He's like when he cleaned the inside of that cup, he was like, It's the inside, because then the outside will follow. And so it does. That's what I've been focusing on of like, okay, if I see an inner change, that's that's when I know to to measure by by his standards, um, not mine. Because like I said, there's there's a few things that he's said that I'm like, oh, okay, I thought I was good, and apparently I'm not. It's like so.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:39

Well, he's always trying to reveal our heart.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:42

What's really there that and and I've noticed in my walk and journey back, like there's so many things that are really tricky.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:53

Like I I never really understood all the little places pride creeps in, and the places that fear creeps in, and um, you know, the little things of idolatry that, you know, we think of an idol as this big thing, and you know, it it's just a process that God to me is revealing himself through our struggle. Yeah. And if we could ever, if we could ever learn that difficulty is meant to teach us more about him, it's not him punishing us, it's him showing us who he is and who we are, yeah. Often who we are, you know, because he's trying to expose what's hidden and buried that we are not even aware of, like you were not aware of some things, so that he can take it from us. But until we come face to face with it, we can't really release it from a place of free will. And so it requires him to excavate all of those places, and it's grievous. Yeah, it's very difficult and to look at our own things that we want to hold on to, you know. Um it is a process.

Unlearning Transactional Faith And Belonging

SPEAKER_02 1:05:15

Yeah. Well, and it's even and I'll say, like, even during this time, like I if he had to teach me how to pray again, because I didn't realize like even the judgment that was still in my prayers. And it's because I remember when I was learning, I guess, to pray for prodigals back when I was growing up. Um now looking back, I'm like, oh my God, like some of the prayers were very harsh. And I remember it was like, God, bring them back no matter how you have to do it. Or God, even like I remember hearing people like, even if they have to get in a car accident or have to give them cancer or stuff. Like I remember lit, these were literal prayers that I would hear. Being spoken, and I'm like, why would you pray that over someone? Do you understand now why they would do that so hard for you? No, because I remember again, like when I was on my way back, and I had that moment because I have some family members that are um they're still away from God. And I was praying for one of them, and I was like, uh, there was a person they were with. And I was like, God, you gotta get them out of their life. Um, and I was like, God, like you just, you gotta remove them. Like that, like, that's the reason, like they're out there and like they're doing all this. Like, God, you God, and I had said again, like from what I learned, yeah. And I just prayed, I was like, God, remove this person, no matter how you do it, even up to taking their life. I thought that that was because that that was like that's what I was taught. And like, and now, like saying it, I'm like, oh my God, like I can't believe I I prayed something like that. Um, and I remember God just I can always feel like when his posture shifts. And I'm just like, oh, you're about to teach me a lesson, and it's not gonna be good. And I remember him telling me, he goes, Okay, you know that person's family is is also a Christian. And I was like, Yes, because I had heard that they were, and I was like, Well, yes, and he goes, Okay, you know they're praying for them as well. And I go, Okay, yes, I'm I'm sure that they are. He goes, and what if they're looking at your family member and saying, God, they're the reason they're out there doing this because they got around this person. He goes, What if they're in the same stance as you? He goes, and they're asking me, God, remove them, even up to taking their life. And I was like, and I just was my jaw dropped, and he goes, No, no, no, I'm not done. And I was like, oh, okay, I thought that was I thought that was the lesson. And he goes, no, he goes, now he goes, I want you to answer me, whose prayer do I answer? And I was like, oh. And I I was just like, I felt like I was backed into a corner, and I was just like, none. Neither, neither of ours. And he goes, So what would you pray for if you knew I had to make a decision? And I was like, I was like, I can't, I couldn't take that risk. And he was like, So what would you pray for? And I was like, Mercy. That that's it. I was like, I would just pray for mercy. I was like, because I would ask for for my family member. Yeah, God, please don't do that. Like, I know I was like, I would be pleading on their behalf. Excuse me. And so I was like, God, I no, just okay. And so I took my hands off. I was like, God, I just I'm asking for mercy. And that person was removed. Um and they, I mean, they just went off with their own life. And um, but that person's still not back yet. But I've even in these moments, like I said, I've felt God, it's not only learning his voice, but it's it's unlearning a lot of the voices of my past.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:44

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:45

Very critical in moving forward. So it's a lot of work you gotta that I at least I've had to do.

A Message To Backsliders And Parents

SPEAKER_01 1:09:52

Yeah, it is even learning because we were conditioned certain ways from a place of not understanding, right? Just yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:02

No, very much so.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:03

And so my dad used to pray um to trouble me. My dad used to pray whatever it takes. Um that's what it was, whatever it takes, and and to trouble another one. But I think it and God did trouble me like a lot. Um, but my dad had an understanding of hell. Yeah. And he he didn't want me to be lost for eternity. Yeah. And so that's why he would pray that, you know, whatever it takes to save my soul, you know, and and that's what I pray for people now, is we don't ever want when we really love someone, we don't ever want harm to come to them, but we don't want them to be lost for eternity for sure. And so God knows how to reach each individual person, and that's what we ultimately want them to do is save them. Save them, wake them up from their slumber, you know, so that they can recognize the place that they're in. I feel like we need a revival of the fear of the Lord to come back on America, you know. We grew up with it, I grew up with it when I was young. You probably did when you were young, although you're quite a bit younger than me. But there there was once upon a time the fear of the Lord. We just understood his the the most we could try to understand him, you know. We understood um he's God, he's not meant to be trifled with, you know. There was a reverence there that we understood his power and his sovereignty, and I feel like people are really missing that, and they're really missing the idea that eternity is right around the corner. Yeah. You know, and we we forget that, yeah, I think. And definitely backsliders don't forget it because we already know we're sinning and we already know if we die, we're gonna be lost. Yeah, I think we try to avoid those thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:12

I was just gonna say, when you were asking if I prayed during that time, it was like, God, I know what I'm doing. So please don't strike me down like while I'm doing this. I was like, but that's what I was like, it was prayers, but it was more like cover me while I'm in sin.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:29

Right. I I prayed, I prayed the same thing, like, don't let me die in this, you know. Yeah. I I always prayed that because I was very aware. I was very aware of that.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:40

Yeah, and that's why I think it's hard. I was like, it's I think honestly, and unless it's like you, like I said, there's a season where it's like you go to a reprobate mind.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:50

Um, but I don't think that ever goes away where you're just like, oh, um, like that awareness of like, no, I know that's the Lord's goodness in my life, his conviction.

Book Plug And Closing Invites

SPEAKER_02 1:13:01

Oh, yeah. I was like, it's it's there, and there's there's no way that at least me, like I I could have run from it, but again, like I think of the prodigal son, like you can run from it so much, but you still had the clothes from your father's house, and you still had the money that you were spending that came from your father to being the sin that you were in. So even though the father wasn't there, there was still traces of him that he took with him. And it was like as as much as I could not forget, he could not forget because it's like, oh, I'm gonna pay for the prostitute, but you're looking at the money, and it was like, oh, this is from my father's house. And even like with the pigs and everything, just like you're there, but it's like I think that's why he came to his senses because it's like I don't know if it was maybe a day that he was extending his hand and he noticed the clothes he was still wearing. And it's like, what am I doing here? Right. When like I don't, and it's crazy even seeing where he was at. And I was like, I don't, I think a lot of people tend to pass that over because that was one of the stories I actually did a deep dive into was the prodigal son. And um when they were saying that he fed the pigs, it was actually they called them the pods. And I actually looked at it, I was like, the but, you know, the Bible's very it's it's not coincidental, no, it's very um strategic in why it mentions certain things. So when it was talking about the pods that he fed, um, they were very specific pods that were specifically for pigs, and so when you looked it up, they were actually sweet, but they were known as a delicacy for animals. They were not sweet enough to put on a human table. And so what they used it for was for fattening up the pigs. And I told my mom, I was like, when it hit me, I was like, oh my god, I go he, because it said he was there at the man who was there hired him to feed his pigs, and I was like, he was literally at the butcher's house. I was like, his starvation led him to the slaughterhouse. Wow. I was like, and he didn't even realize it.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:22

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:23

Because these pigs, really good, these pigs were being fattened up to be slaughtered and sold for their meat. Yeah. And he was serving that. Right. I was like, you were you were feeding into, I was like, you you didn't even realize you were you were literally under the hand of a butcher. Right. Like that was like the last place, and that's when it was like, oh, what am I doing here? And going back and again, like rehear just having to rehearse that because and I think again, as a prodigal, that's how you feel. Yeah, a lot of the times of like, I gotta give God a really good story, like when I come back to make sure he accepts me. And I think that's why he was so focused on that life that the father ran to him because it was like, no, I I didn't, I don't need you to rehearse anything, I just need you to come home.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:16

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:17

That's it. And um, and it's crazy because again, the reason the father ran to him, because there was actually I can't remember the name of it. Oh God, I I wish I could. But there was a tradition actually in in the Hebrew culture that when a person had left their father's house and then returned and they were distraught, um, it it they would um come up to them because they brought shame to their father's household. So they would come up to them and take their pots, and they would go directly to the son, the daughter, whoever it was that they saw returning to the father's house, and they would throw the pots in front of them until they were shattered. And they would curse them, and they would say, For the shame that you brought upon your father's house, may your life be like these shattered pots. So they would speak a curse over them that may your life remain in pieces for the shame you brought to your father. And so the father knew that, and so he knew I gotta get to him before the other people do. Wow, that's that's very powerful. Because he thought he's like, I gotta protect, I gotta protect my son from the people that think they're protecting my reputation. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:39

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:40

Because and I can't do that, I cannot let because if they get to him before I do, he may turn back. Right. Yeah. And shame can do that. Yes, and so he the fact that he covered his son, and I I always like that part always got to me because I was like, God, you didn't tell him go get washed up first because you stink. What what is this that you have on you? Where did you where did this mud come from? Where did this smell come from? I'm like, it's he didn't ask any questions. He didn't say where you've been, what you've been doing. Right. Um It was the brother that did that. He just covered him. He put he put a cloak over him, and I even felt like gotta go, you did that on purpose. The putting that cloak over him because he knew if the people ran and got word, hey, we heard he came back.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:36

And they ran to the father, like, where is he? They're not gonna recognize him because he had the father's cloak on. Right. And he's gonna look like the son that never left.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:48

Wow, that's great.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:49

And so it's like that's why that's what that's the message he was trying to say of like, it's just get back, just get back to me. I was like, I'm gonna not only protect you from the people that are gonna try to speak against you, but when they do see you, you're gonna look, you're gonna look like you never left my house. Yeah. Once I get hold of you. That's why there was a celebration, because he was like, No, you don't, you don't know how long I've waited for this. Like, you don't know, like I've sat here and watched every sunset and sunrise to catch his silhouette on there until he came home. So we're celebrating now that he's here, because he was exactly he was dead and now he's alive. And I remember God telling me even in that moment, um, where he said, you know, the old things are passed away. Behold, all things have become new. And he who is in Christ is a new creature. And I was like, Okay, God, I was like, but everything, and he goes, No, no, no, no, don't don't bring up, don't bring up what you did. Don't bring up your past. Nothing he was and I was like, Yeah, gotta go, but of course, because the enemy comes in and is like, well, you did this and is laying all those charges against you. And he just told me, he goes, You can't charge a dead man. And so I was like, Okay. He was those everything that he could. He's like, that's with the old that stayed in the grave. Yeah, he goes, and that can't be he's like, so any charges that he does bring against you, he was they'll they'll have to be denied. Yeah, he's he has to come up with something different. He's like, because you can't charge a dead man. Yeah. That's good.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:46

That's good. So uh so it sounds like I mean it sounds like you had a lot of hurt growing up and um grief and uh confusion, I would say, about about the Lord and everything. But uh were did you stay going to church? I mean, do you feel like your backsliding was when you uh had a a relationship outside of marriage and then got pregnant and had a baby?

SPEAKER_02 1:21:19

Is that what your your Do you know what I th I think now looking back at it, because I think I heard I heard a preacher say this one time that's not to minimize anything.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:29

I think your heart posture was already moving away from God because of disappointment and and pain. Yeah. Um and and listen, there's no sin greater than the next. But I'm I'm just trying to get in your mind, were you going to church all of that time? Did you stop going to church?

SPEAKER_02 1:21:50

I no, I stopped going. And it was even before I had got into that relationship. Um and that's why so I was like, it's that preacher that had said you don't backslide overnight. Right. And looking yes, and so looking back, I was like, oh no. When I first started getting those those questions that I couldn't get answered, I think that's when I was like, yes, I started taking a step back and I didn't realize it because it was like, oh, well, I just um, you know, if you get hurt, you distance yourself from someone, but it's like, yeah, you're you're stepping back. That's what that's what backsliding is, you're stepping away from the father. Like, and now um that's I felt like where he had to change that dynamic of our relationship. Cause it's like when you when you trust someone and you love someone, like, and I think about it with my daughter right now, and there's so many things that he's teaching me, even with her. Um, I think the other day I was like, she goes, Mommy, I love you. And I because I told her to do something, I think I told her like three times, and I was like, I I asked you. So I got mad. I was like, I've asked you to do this three times. She's like, Mommy, but I love you. So that's her thing right now. I was like, mommy, I love you. But I'm like, then listen to me. And I just felt like God look at look at me like, wow, that's profound. Yeah, he was he was, didn't I say that? He was, if you love me, obey my commands. And I was like, Oh, dang. I was like, man, you're still you're parenting me while I'm parenting my child.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:22

What what what better way is there to learn? Yeah, exactly. I mean, that that's that that's actually really exciting because I never understood, like I I never really understood the obedience piece and the Yeah, but I I don't think there's just so many things I didn't really understand that God has had to teach me in the last few years, you know, but He is good and He does teach us, He gives us, you know, but I think for you, like you read the Bible with a whole different clarity and perspective, and maybe He wanted you to do it on your own so that you can learn Yeah what you have learned and what you are learning.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:06

Yeah. And I I'll say like that's the part, and it's funny because people are like, if you could go back and redo it, yeah, would you? And I was like, no, I wouldn't because I felt like that breaking point is what it's what drove me to him. And it's what completely learned on your own. Yes. I was like, I wouldn't have read my Bible had I not been been broken like that. I was like, I would not have sought him out like I did had I not been broken like that. I was like, and I was like, now I I wouldn't change it.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:41

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:41

I I wouldn't change it. I was like, I know they're like, oh, you know, well, everything happens for a reason. I was like, but I I can honestly see that. Like, no, it's I know God's like, well, no, I I didn't intend for that.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:52

I'm gonna clarify, not everything happens for a reason, but for them who love the Lord, yes, God works everything for good. Yes, and I'm not saying that for your sake. I know that you know that. I'm saying that to people who's watching because uh in my office, I hear that all the time with people that don't really go to church or or read their Bible or anything, they think, well, everything happens for a reason. No, there is an adversary, he does bring a lot onto people that is meant to destroy, steal, kill, and destroy, right? But God, when we when we love him, he works all things together for the good, and there's a major difference between the two. Oh, yeah, you know, and so I'm saying that for everybody out there, yeah, because that's hard to reconcile. Like, if everything happens for a reason, why what's the reason? We begin to question that, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:55

And it's fine, I said that I was like, I told someone, I was like, Well, I go, yeah, I go, it's I'll take say the truth of that statement is like everything does happen for a reason, but you gotta, it's the reason behind it. Who who was behind that? It's it's the who that as to why that happened. I was like, because it happened for a reason, but the reason was it's because Satan works straight at that.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:15

Right. You know, I was like, or you know, such as Yeah, it's not God's will that you know. Yeah, I don't think uh yeah, there's a lot of tragedy in this life that God's not making any of that happen. He's given the enemy dominion over, you know, here. So um so what do you like where let me think how I want to ask this. Um what do you think the most difficult thing for you as a backslider has been to overcome in coming back?

SPEAKER_02 1:26:57

I think my it's honestly it's still people. I think there's a sense of me that's and I'm working through it, of that validation of like, well, if other people just see my progress, and if other people, and it's like almost like I said, looking for that validation, and then I'll say the old mindset of because I felt like a lot of what I believed was like that works-based. Like if I do good, God will God will do this. And if right if he's not doing certain things, it's because I'm doing something wrong.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:32

Right. And so there's so much to unpack there, which I won't right now, but because there is the law of sowing and reaping. Yes. Um, and the fruit of our words, right? We're we're going to get the fruit of our words. But at the same time, God is not punitive like that. Yeah. You know, and um I think it goes back to our heart posture towards Him. And it is, it's like the First thing we check is when something goes wrong is have I done something wrong? Do I need to fix something? You know, the first thing we do, and I think that's healthy to a degree that we search ourselves to see, but I know exactly what you're talking about because um we were very conditioned based on works. And I, you know, I I don't think it was at least not by everybody, I don't think it was meant to be taught that way. I think it's a combination of ignorance to some degree, and a combination um of just a lack of maybe real communication in it, you know, and then also um tradition. But I think there have been and are and continuing to be um pastors and churches that are taking more time to love, you know, because it's so easy to it's so easy to obey when love exists. And I think that's when we have that loving relationship with the Lord we desire, we desire to please him, we desire to obey. We just don't always know what that looks like, you know? Yeah, and I think but I think there's healing taking place in the body, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:34

Overall, I I hope, you know, I see it, but no, I've definitely seen it as well. And and it's funny because I remember talking to to someone who's making their way back, and I had said the same thing. They're like, Well, like I do this, and I was like, when you go to that work-based mentality, and that's something God really worked on me with. He was like, if if you if you do something good and then I'm good to you, he was, and or if you do something bad and then I refrain from doing good to you, he's like, then that love is transactional. Yeah, he is it's not unconditional, yeah, it's not unconditional. He's like, and that's not the God that I am, right? And I was like, Oh, okay. He's like, So are you looking for a transaction? He was are you looking for a relationship? And I was like, Oh, no, I want a relationship. Yeah, I I don't want I don't want a business partner, right? Um I'm looking for a father, and I'm looking for you know the who he is and who he wants to be. You know, that's why he says, I am. Put whatever you need after that. So if you need a father, well, I'm a father. If you need a friend, I am a friend. If you need a a provider, a comforter, it's he's it's all in him. It's all he's he's everything that you need him to be.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:58

And so and I would say, Elizabeth, um, this is what I have learned is that there is a season and maybe a longer season for some where we're still not gonna belong. But I think that that is God separating us unto him, you know, because we need him more in those moments, yeah, you know. I often think I I I often think because my Achilles Hill was always a man, and um and it's been a long time for me since I've dated, but um I always think, Lord, like you're my everything.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:45

What is it? I've never really had him at the same time as I've had someone else. Um, but I've never really had the right relationship either to know what that could be like. But I I always think like it's such a beautiful and precious time when we are really separated under him. Yeah. Because he gets all of our time and attention. And, you know, I I wonder what he feels like when he kind of sends us out to have some sort of a life there, you know. Um our time with him is less. And you know, I I think I cherish that, you know. So it's okay. It's okay if I don't have a tribe, or you know, yeah, it's it's gonna be okay if you don't have a tribe because he becomes that. Yeah, and we do need community, we do need relationships, we do need spouses, and I think, you know, God set it up that way. Oh, yeah. But what it means now is way different than what it meant then.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:56

Yeah, you know, and it's funny because it's again, even in that area, they because God, like God had told me, and that was one of the things with my mentor, he was like, She's gonna teach you to be a wife. And and he's again, he told me he was like, You're gonna have a season with her, and then a season with me, and then I'm gonna send you your husband. And I remember fighting tooth and nail when he took her from me because I was like, she, I had learned so much from her and I'd felt myself build back up. So I'm in that.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:30

You've been afraid to stand on your own.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:32

Yeah. And so I've had this this season has been with me and him. And so when people like tell me, and I've fallen in love with it. Yeah, so when people tell me like I need to, they're like, you need to go out there and meet somebody, or anything. I'm just like, no. I was like, well, first of all, I was like, he told me it's gonna be me and a man's job to pursue the woman.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:51

I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:52

Yeah, and so and I told him first of all, I was like, he he said it was gonna be me and him for a season. I was like, and then he said, I'll send him to all of it. So no, I was like, um, I'm in a season where I'm like, no, I was like, and even when people like and I I feel like when you become so in it literally like enthralled, you become so in love with God where it's like you you question when other people come, you're like, oh no, why are you here? Yeah, like no, are you gonna disturb what's going on between between us? Because um, but now it's like I'm I'm starting to be able to pour into other people what I've learned.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:29

And even in regard, like there, there's women that I I talk to that are married, and things that God told like taught me in my season with my men, my mentor that they've even told me, they're like, you tell me stuff that I've never learned as a wife. And because he taught me what it meant to be, and it was the best teacher. Yes, he is. And that was because that was one of my biggest things where I was like, God, like how could you let this happen? Like, I was a like, I'm a wife, I've a wife. And um, he told me very, very um clear, in a in a clear yes, clear, um stern, but in a way that was try not to hurt my feelings, but he told me he was like, No, you're not. And I was like, um, excuse me. You want to re- wait, wait, wait, let's rewind that a bit. And I was like, you want to tell me that again? And he goes, by whose standards? And I was like, Well, I was a virgin. Like everything, like, and like when I was with him, he goes, Okay, again, you did not answer my question, by whose standards? And I was like, And in my head, I was like, the church. Because that's all they taught me was you're you're oh you're a virgin. Oh my god, you're a wife. Nothing beyond that. And he was like, and he just told me he was okay, so the church's standards, he was, but by mine, you are not a wife. And I was like, Oh, what? And it was hard to hear, yeah. But it's what I needed to hear, and that's when he told me when I was with my mentor, like when the dream and everything had happened that I spoke on. Um, he had told me he was like, You have a lot of stuff in your heart that I would not trust my son to be tied to. Wow. And I was like, truth though, right? And I was like, okay. I'm like, that's he's like, no, he was because he was the weight that you carry with you. He was you're expecting your husband, he was to to carry that. He was or the insecurity that you feel. He's like, the rejection that you feel, he's like, you're expecting him to sweep in and heal those wounds, except for you, yeah. And I was like, doesn't work that way. And I was like, well, yeah, and he goes, That is so selfish. And I was like, Oh, okay, so I got a little whooping that day, but I was like, Okay, God, then teach me, teach me to be a wife. And lo and behold, that's when my mentor came. And it was a beautiful about two years, two to three years that I was with her. And this last, I'll say two years, I've I've been with just me and God, and that's when it's like he's literally just doing deep dives into the Bible, and I'll just be there sometimes days at a time, just reading it and like, oh my god, going back over and over and over, reading the same story three or four different times.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:40

And what do you uh we'll wrap up? What do you want to say to the backslider that hasn't returned yet? I'm sure some of them are gonna hear this. What do you want to say to people who haven't come back to the Lord?

SPEAKER_02 1:38:01

For one, I know what it's like to be there. I know my story may not be as, you know, as I'm I I'll say in some people's terms, I may not have gone as far as other people were. Thank goodness that you didn't.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:16

Yeah, I was like, I mean, because those just become scars, you know. And we don't need scars. I'm glad you didn't go as far.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:25

Yeah. And so I think with some people, it if you have that idea of where it's like, I I would I don't even know how to come back because you've gotten so far that you don't even know the direction the father's house is in. And I would just say just take that first step. It may not have to be directly back in church or anything, but a simple take on prayer.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:54

Just and it's not like God, like you know, all the proper terms that we feel like we need to just as if you're talking to a friend, if you're on a phone call or a text message. I I wrote my stuff in a journal. Yeah. Um, and just just that first step. And and I I promise it's it's that first step that at least it puts you in that direction because the father knew when his son was coming back.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:21

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:22

That's why he kept his eyes on the horizon.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:24

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:24

Because he knew one day I'm gonna see that silhouette.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:28

And what would you say to um to the parent who's praying for their prodigal?

SPEAKER_02 1:39:37

Don't stop. It I know it looks sometimes it can look devastating and almost to a point to where it's like, I feel like when I pray, things get worse.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:46

Yeah. I have heard that so many times. People don't want to pray because they think it's gonna get worse. Yes. That is a lie from the pits of hell.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:54

Yeah. I will say, um, it's not until, like I said, recently when I started learning this stuff, but when it looks like it's getting worse, that's actually when breakthrough's near.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:06

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:06

Because if you think about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:08

And if the enemy can keep you from praying because you're afraid it's gonna get worse, guess what? Job accomplished.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:14

Yes. So the way someone had explained it that I saw was when you cast a demon out, and you know, they were saying, you know, if he comes back and he finds a house unswept, he brings seven more worse than him. He is it's because that the demon that was cast out has legal access to that house. So if he's bringing more, it's because he's bringing more because he knows he's losing authority. So when you see them, he's like, it's basically like someone throwing a temper tantrum. So what are they gonna do? It's like they're calling for reinforcements. So when you see that your person, whoever it is that you're praying for, is becoming worse, it's like, oh no, that demon's throwing a temper tantrum. Let him have a big thing. Because yes, because you they you that spirit knows I'm losing access to this house.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:11

Yeah, let God work. Yes, it might look like it's getting worse and it might get worse, but that's the Lord. He knows what needs to happen, and it's happening because of prayers. Yes. Okay, everyone. So Elizabeth wrote a book. It's called Is There Still Hope in Egypt. Um, is this available on Amazon?

SPEAKER_02 1:41:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:35

You can get this on Amazon. Um, a lot of backsliders are writing their stories, um, have written their stories. And um I highly encourage you guys to get it. It's not a very thick book, so it'll be a quick, easy read. But in doing it, you get to help her. And um, and man, everybody can relate, I think, and we can always pass the book along to someone else that might need it. Um, because every story is so very different. And so um, I hope you will get it. Is There Still Hope in Egypt by Elizabeth M. Rocha? So thank you all for being here, and um and we'll see you again next week.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:22

We are so glad you joined us. If you have a story of redemption or have worn the label of a backslider, we would love to hear from you. If you'd like to support our ministry, your donation will be tax deductible. Visit our website at Kathy Chestane.com. We hope you will tune in for our next episode.