Journey With My Prodigal Son: Rev. Michael R. Torres #TRB Season 2 Episode 49

A pastor’s son commits bank robbery, lands in federal prison, and still can’t shake the pull of God. That’s the real-life backdrop for our conversation with Rev. Michael Torres, who joins us to tell the story from the parent’s side and to offer something many families are starving for: hope that doesn’t deny the pain.

We talk about the roots that shaped his life and ministry in the Apostolic and Pentecostal tradition, from revival stories and youth camps to a discipline of prayer that became his lifeline. Rev. Torres also speaks plainly about the issues that often sit under the surface for church kids and backsliders: offense, loneliness, spiritual sensitivity, depression, and the confusion that comes when we confuse church culture with a personal relationship with Jesus.

Then the conversation turns to the moment every parent fears, the phone call that changes everything.

Tune in to listen to the rest of the story.

To share your testimony, please email: kathy@theredeemedbackslider.org

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Redeemed Backslider. With your host, Kathy Chestane, Christian-based psychotherapist and redeemed backslider. This podcast is dedicated to those who have wandered but are ready to return to the life-changing power of grace and the freedom found in Jesus.

SPEAKER_06 0:22

Hi, welcome to the Redeemed Backslider. I'm your host, Kathy Chastain. I'm a Christian-based psychotherapist and a redeemed backslider. With me in the studio today is a very special guest, one I have been wanting to talk to for several, several months. And that is Reverend Michael Torres. K. Torres, right? Michael R. Torres. And Brother Torres is going to give us a little history of his ministry over the years in the Apostolic Church. And then we're going to talk about what he went through as a parent having a prodigal son and who his prodigal has recently come back. I know some of you guys might know uh his son's story a little bit. We had him here on the podcast, but we're going to get the other perspective today from Brother Torres. And I'm really, really looking forward to this interview. So, Brother Torres, thank you so much for being here with us.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

You're quite welcome, and it's honored for me to be here to try to be a blessing to those who've gone through what I went through in our apostolics across our nation. And I want to be a blessing today and help them to see how have hope that they are there is hope that God can do a lot of miracles and still doing lots of miracles. Somehow, if I can encourage everyone here, it will be very, very well worth it today.

SPEAKER_06 1:47

Yes. Well, thank you. Um I met you for the first time when you came with Michael to do his podcast, and you gave me a little bit of your history as a minister in our apostolic movement. But I I was wondering if you could give me a little bit more of a biographical history of your ministry.

Roots Of Faith And Revival

A Teen’s Hunger For God

Offense And Staying In Church

Learning Prayer Through Discipline

Marriage And Early Ministry Years

A Clear Call To Bellflower

Modesto Leadership And Family Balance

Visalia Transition And Diane’s Faith

The Arrest That Shattered Everything

Sensitivity And The Weight Of Calling

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Okay. Well, first of all, uh I was originally from uh West Virginia. That's where I was born. My fa my mother's side was back uh in Virginia area during the colonial days. My uh ancestors fought under George Washington Valley Forge, uh 1812. They fought in the Civil War, they died in the Civil War, uh World War II, Korean War, Vietnam, and and and beyond. And so and so on my mother's side, very, very deep American history. Uh back in the about a hundred years ago, uh men went into the uh coal mines of central West uh West Virginia and and and had uh brush harbors and great revival. And a lot of my family came in under those times. So it was very, very, very encouraging. And uh so from that a lot of people have lived for God throughout the years through that time. My mother at that time when she was born, uh she did not was not interested in God. She wanted out of West Virginia because it's just it's just all mountains and 90 it's almost 90 percent mountains and uh beautiful place, but not a good place to live as far as uh the nightlife. Yeah. And so she went off to Baltimore and to Chicago and there went one of the nightclubs and just wanted the light good nightlife of sin. And but finally, after marrying my father in Michigan, and and then we came out to California um uh from West Virginia in 1963, about right about that time. We landed in Madeira. We had been in Madera before. My father went there when he was a young man, a single man, uh, and he liked that town and that area. And so, right shortly after that, there was a verbal bean revival in Madeira. Wow and uh Sister Tool and Sister Connor came knocking on our door, and they were very smart women, very women strong women of God. And so they saw all these kids my mother had, and they said, We would like for you to come to other services uh at night with the ravine, and we'll have your kids go pick them up on Sunday morning for Sunday school. They they were smart because had they taken us kids to church at night, it we were wild, and it would have been too much, and my mom wouldn't have gotten nothing out of that service. And so, um, and also saved my mom some embarrassment. And so she went and it she was ready. She was ready for God. She bought it hook, line, and sinker. Wow and from there we um went to Sunday school. Um and uh I I I swear I felt God. I'd been to other little churches before, but never felt the Holy Ghost when uh Winfield Toole would preach and hear them the anointing. I I was in shock and and I fell in love with God. And um I learned it, it hit the altars. My mom, of course, started living for God. My father came in in and out here and there at that time. And uh, but the teaching was fantastic, the youth camps, and I what that church wanted, they loved me, they treated me well, I wanted what they had. I loved the Bible, but the tool would give me uh uh I wanted uh help me buy a Bible to study it more and and so forth. And and from there, I um it was the week of uh the um man landed the moon uh that I received the Holy Ghost at youth camp the same week uh as a great evangelist, I forgot his name here, is very famous during that time. I went a great evangelist in that era, and so I received it and I changed my life. When I came back home, I felt like I wanted to give more of myself to God. And and so with that same time period, um uh I um uh I was 13 years old, right between seventh and eighth grade. I was already making a lot of progress, uh fifth grade, sixth grade. I was I'd go off into the uh uh we lived in the country at the time, and I'd go off into the vineyards or the olive trees and spend time with God and read my Bible. There's too many kids in the home to to pray or read the Bible without being disrupted. So I'd go off and make my little tree house or whatever uh cave I could do, and I would begin to read the Bible, pray, have a relationship with God, trying to read the Bible through. And uh when I was, of course, 13, when I get received the Holy Ghost, it changed my life into a different matter. I all I wanted was the things of God. At that time, uh I was a minister uh in the Madura Church by the name of Chester Jones, an elder that uh asked me, he was over the Sunday school and bus routes and asked me if I would like to come along uh with him on a Saturday. And I said I would be, I love to go. And so when I went with him on this outreach and visiting kids for Sunday school, it turned it again took me to a different level. I was never the same since. I I I I I immediately went into uh uh bus routes and working bus routes out, and and then brother Toole would eventually take me himself. I didn't have a car yet, wasn't driving yet, didn't have a license every Saturday morning to to pick me up for outreach, and I would um do so, and there he would talk to me about God, about the ministry, brother roading his uncle, and uh the history of Pentecost and and plant the word of and then afterwards he would take me to lunch and we would eat and talk. And now Elder Too was a great, great man of God. He was a district superintendent of the Western District for many years and went to Oregon, Portland, Oregon, and take a church, and there he would become the superintendent of um the um uh uh of the west of the Oregon district and so forth. And so thank God for all that. And then his his his his grandkids would eventually become ministers throughout the fellowship and uh spread out all over America and what a beautiful situation. But with me, uh uh I I learned the word of God, and one time I even brought I brought so many kids through bus route. The kid the church was not was not big at all, maybe 50 people, 60, a lot of older people, and I'd bring about 70, 80 people, kids all dressed up one Sunday. And I'm and really it was funny, it was kind of comical. The church wasn't ready for it. Uh it was wild, these kids from the Badios of Madeira, you know, and Wilde and Rooley, and and man, we had the candy candy, biggest candy deal, candy rain, so forth. And uh and luckily we got through the Sunday morning that day uh without the church being burnt down. Uh it was really comical. And probably Elder Toole came up to me, but can we calm down a little bit? We just can't handle it yet. And I laughed. It was hard for me to understand, but I understood later. And uh one thing I've learned, and it living for God, we we all get offended, but we well, we cannot stay offended. I have a conviction about that. I refuse to uh stay offended about things of life because offenses are going to come. Jesus said that. We're all gonna be offended, but I've seen so many people walk away from God from little offense, offended by the word, offended by somebody not shaking their hands or being ignored, or whatever it may be. But I'm telling you, I got a hold of God. I had a great church, I loved God so much uh that I wanted whatever I had to do to make it and to help the church, I did it for the love of it. And I I I never felt part of the world. I wanted nothing of the world. I uh I did give up, believe it or not, eighth, eighth grade, this summer before eighth grade, um, uh before I entered high school, I wanted to not stop, I wanted to stop watching television. And my family had a television in the home. My dad was not living for God. So it's and I be honest with you, uh, I was a young boy. I uh I had hormones ranging to me. I wanted to live for God. When I get on there and I'd see uh Rock How Welch or whatever it is, it wasn't good for me to see that. Yes. I I had a hard time praying and going to church and and thinking, not just that, but other stuff. And I said, God, I need, I want to focus on you and not be lusting after the things of this world. And and I did it. I went through high school, and believe it or not, since then I have testified this same thing in preaching to different churches, and I had people about my age came to me and said, I went through the same thing, Brother Torres. That was a good message. And and you know, we have to be careful of the things of this world. I want to make it. Right. And and uh my philosophy is making it to heaven. Heaven's gonna be cheap at any price. Whatever I've got to do, I want to make it. And during that time in high school, I was bringing people to church. I um uh I was asked to do some sermonettes, and I was surprised by that. And and then I would uh uh start preaching and and different things here and that. And uh my favorite place in uh that time of my life was the house of God. And at the one time I do tell this story when I um uh I I I didn't have a key to church, and I walked home from junior high to re uh to meet my father after his work, uh, so I can go home and ride with him back home. And I would go by the church and and I believe it or not, I did this. I wouldn't advise anyone to do this, but I did it. I it was a two-story building there on 745 North H Street, and I would uh climb up and I broke into the church. I would go into the window, I did it. I did it and I left no trace, all because all it wanted to do was pray. And I would do that, and so I got good at it. So after school, I'd get in a break in there and I'd go in the back there and pray. And one one one afternoon after I did that, and I went into the pastor's office, it wasn't locked. I sat there, and as an officer just kind of mesmerized the whole thing. It was kind of neat, and all of a sudden the door opened, and there was Brother Tool, my pastor looking at me, wondering what I was doing there. And like I was so humiliated and so embarrassed and apologized. He was so kind and sweet to me, and and he, you know, he didn't get on to me, didn't correct me. Just just just doing the whole thing really humbled me bad. I did not want to disappoint him. About the next service or two, after he called by the those days, they called me Brother Mike uh growing up there, and he said, Brother Mike, come over here. I want to talk to you after service. And he took out of it, what's in his pocket and reached out, and there was a key. He says, Brother Mike, here's a key to the church. You could come anytime you want. I'm gonna tell you what, that that did something to me. Uh, it really did. It changed my life because it gave me a deal where I could come and pray, and that's the coming to church to pray alone was today, I still do that today, ever since Madeira and to uh Bellflower, California, where I would assist uh Brother Clifford Clark for three and a half years uh there. And then I would go to Modesto, a very large church at that time, one of the largest apostolic churches in America at that time, under Brother Keyes, and I was a senior associate pastor with him for 21 years, and and and and then uh and then in Vicelli, where I pastor. It's still today my my favorite thing to do is to go to the church and pray, because there I get answers, I get comfort, I get direction, I get renewal and a burden for the lost and and the ministry that I came in. And again, coming from Madeira, that's where I got my roots there, was the brother tool, prayer, the word, youth camps. Uh the Fresno Church Tooth Tabernacle was a great, great influence in my life. Uh, they I was hung around them a lot. They they helped me and great men came through there, Nate Wilson and so many others, the great evangelists, the ministers throughout the UPC Fellowship, some of the greatest men in my life. I've camped under, I've sat with, I ate with, I learned a lot. Um and so uh when I was I became a youth leader after I married in 1976 with a young girl from Dinuba, California by the name of Diane Canales, a great Christian girl there, that uh one in 10,000, I would say. And it was the will of God. We got married. She came to Madeira. Uh she was 18 years old, um, just a few months out of high school. Uh, but she had taken business in high school, very, very dedicated. It was a musician sing, and right there we got involved in the ministry right then and there, right from our honeymoon. The pastor at that time came and brought the books as we want Diane to be a secretary, Mike, the youth leader, and we bought it hook, line, and sinker. And from there, we gave everything we had to the work of God. And from there, um uh uh we would have our kids there in 78 and in 79. Uh, we had our two children, Michael and Timothy Torres, there in Madeira. And a few years later, Brother Clifford Clark would come and take that church there. And um, and with that, uh, after he pastored there about seven years, uh, we and there I learned a lot from him. And uh he asked me to go come full time. That was in '85, '84. He asked me to come to assist with him. I had a dream. There's a youth, there was a general conference in um Anaheim that year, the general conference. And there I was driving around with Diane, and I went to this area called the Cerritos area uh by Bellflower, and I had this this this this this essence of feeling in the spirit. I said, Diane, I don't know what this is all about, but I think we're gonna live here. I don't understand it. I don't even know this area, I don't know where this is coming from. I just told her that. So I thought no more about it, and I went, went back to the conference, went back home, but the clerk happened finally during the week as I was going to pray. I was in the insurance business at that time, all state insurance, and I was on my way to church to work to go to church, my my my routine. I saw by the clerk, and he likes to get ready at the church before prayer. And I saw him and I said, But Clark, I gotta tell you what happened. I just had uh during Congress, I had this weird uh situation through uh part of Bell uh LA area, and um I felt I was gonna live there, and I don't I think that's weird. I'm just throwing out the window at this time. I don't know what that means. I just want to let you know I thought that was weird. And uh and brother Clark looked at me in shock. He looked at me, he said, Mike, he uh he was shaving and and he and he was wiping his face and he shakes, dried his face face quickly. If you know Brother Clifford Clark, a great evangelist in America, great church, uh great, uh real respected to this day, all over the fellowship, apostolic fellowship, and a great man of wisdom. And he looked at me, he says, Mike, you're not gonna believe it. The last few days, uh Brother White in Bellflower, California, asked me to come and take the church there in Bellflower, and already was gonna come to you and ask you if you would full-time be full-time, my full-time assistant pastor with me. And I was in shock, and he was in shock, and God was in that. And so we went there uh January of 81, of 86, 85, 86, it's 85 it was, I believe. And there we started a full-time ministry, and there we would be with a clerk for about three and a half years there. I learned a lot. We I ran the uh between finances, the school, preaching, ministerial, uh uh counseling, whatever I could do to him. We and Diane, uh Diane and I fit like a jewel. She was humble, she loved the work of God, loved people, loved a woman of prayer. And her mother, incidentally, was probably one of the greatest soul winner women I ever met in my life. She probably wanted at least 200 people to God in her 30, 40, 50 years there in Dainubu. That lot of her ministry still uh going on uh in America, all over, and it's generations after generations, a simple Hispanic lady that that did not refuse to stay offended, also, went to labor camps, fed people, brought filled buses, loads of people, and that's what she did. And it affected my wife. And and um so anyway, getting back to uh Bellflower, and after uh three and a half years there, uh Randy Keyes, who assisted at that time with the fastest growing apostolic churches in America in Modesto. Uh, in my study of revivals throughout history in America, the last hundred years, every era has a time where these great men start have great churches, and and uh and he was one of them at that time. And so I came there, revival was already going there, and um, and so he asked me to be his assistant and to um and Diane, and we had a big school that had daycare, uh, and we wanted to be in charge of the finances again. The same thing I had, but at a bigger scale. And he trusted us. He trusted us, and we we worked hard not to break that trust. And I appreciate the opportunity, but Keys, but Tool, Elder Toole, but the Clark and Brother Randy Keys gave to my wife and I and to have a tremendous uh time. And there, we our children grew up in Christian schools from Madeira to Bellflower, California, to Modesto. Modesto had a great Christian school of almost 200 people at that time and built a brand new school and great teachers, and my kids flourished under that. And Michael really got a hold of God during that time, and Timothy did too, my son. And and so, um, as you know, um one thing I tried to do, but I learned with a clerk is have a balance with the family. You know, we as first of all, I want to be a Christian. Yes, the ministry is tough. Uh I I a survey was done by sta by Harvard University many years ago, and that would um uh that said the pastor's wife is the hardest job in the whole world. And I was in shock. And have I have I have I and I studied that, I could see that very much. And when you and also be in the ministry, being full-time, whether it's part-time, full-time, small churches, big churches, uh, large churches, every every soul winner, every saint, every assistant pastor, every youth leader, every pastor of whatever size or ministry that uh and assistants that work in and helps to the ministry, everybody counts. And we all want our children saved. We all want our kids used of God. And we want to be the best as parents. And uh, and I've seen deep hurts within parents of great Christians, great ministers, great missionaries. And but we go back to heaven and we see where God, the God of glory and his angels, where one-third of the angels uh backslide and leave God in heaven after seeing the throne and seeing all the majesties of God. They left God. And then and then we go into Adam and Eve and and and uh Adam and Eve, after seeing the garden, they fell and uh and disconnected from God. They backslid, and then when God had uh um um um Cain and Abel, you know, Cain uh Cain backslid and became the first murderer, and he and he knew about sacrifice, he had it give he was given an opportunity, he knew what to do, and yet he he he froze, he chose to go a different route. And since then, we all have decisions, and really one sense in the big picture, we're all related to uh to Adam and Eve. I just read recently, I heard recently that our DNA, there's science, a DNA that we, our DNA of all human beings still come from Adam and Eve. Uh quite quite very scientific knowledge is coming out that the world, that the uh I'd say the the world that doesn't, this anti-God spirit in the world doesn't like to hear that kind of information. Uh, but here we are today, and so in this ministry with Michael, and um, I saw he became uh uh compassionate, passionate about soul winning, passionate uh prayer. He had a deep prayer walk with God, a deep influence in the kids in Madeira, I mean in Modesto at that time, and uh saw the c God call upon his life. He did not ask for the ministry, he was asked by the keys, uh, and the youth there and other youth leaders had great hope in him, and he was beginning being begin being used of God, and they're in there in Modesto, and they're married uh uh married there and had two children, had a good job, bought a home. And you know, the devil can work on anybody, and anything can happen to anybody. Really, we all can fail. We and and we all make mistakes. And one thing I've heard through Elder Von Morton, he told me years ago when I had young kids in a service one day, Mike. You know, so me and my me and Diane says, Really, there's nobody knows how to handle handle us parents like our children. And I have held to that, and I've said that everywhere I go. Nobody knows how to humble us parents like our children. Because we can lose everything we've got, but our children, we want them. Our safety, we want their well-being, we have their marriage, we want them to live for God and make it to heaven with our with their children, with our grandchildren in the future. So when this incident happened, I now at this time, after being 21 years in Modesto, Diane, my wife, had had cancer, albert cancer for three years, a great, great uh um situation in our life. And uh and so uh when I went to uh Brother uh John Renner and Bicelia had been asking me to come to preach for him. I didn't feel comfortable. Believe it or not, I like staying in my own pond. I didn't want to go out preaching in other places. And uh and so uh he kept asking me, I kept sending people there and they had revival, believe it or not. I send these young preachers there, send my son Timothy and others there, and finally, brother Elder John Renner called me. He says, Mike, I want you to come to preach for nobody else. You keep sending everybody else, I want you. So I came down there to preach uh that Saturday morning. I went to meet him at the church. And when I walked in, I never did never had had this happen to me. I never heard this happening. Once I walked in the doors, he greeted me. We didn't even get in the sanctuary yet. He says, Mike, I'm gonna tell you what, the reason why I want wanted you to come is I thought maybe Timothy uh or your son might be I might be calling him here to come take this church, but really I've come here for one reason. You've come, I've asked you to come for one reason. I'm sorry I stutter, I talk fast, as you see. I'm a very high-energy person, as you many of you people know. Uh and so uh so I he said, Mike, I want you to come. I feel for you to take this church in Vicelia. I want you to take this church, and I was in shock. I was totally in shock. And um, I always said that if I ever left modesto, I want to leave with my dignity. And um, and so when I called Diane that afternoon, uh after talking with uh runner for several hours, we went and met up in the mountains there, beautiful valley here up in the uh lower sequoi's uh the foothills, and so yeah, some property up there in a trailer, and we met and talked a long time. And I called Diane at that time, she'd had three years of cancer, like I've said, and I said, you know, I said, Diane, I I want to let you know that brother uh uh first of all I called Brother Keys, I let him know what happened. He gave me my full blessing, Mike. You whatever you do, you go ahead and go for it. I think God will bless your life. He gave me this blessing. Then I called Diane, and Diane said, I one of the other I called one of them first, I can't remember, but then I told Diane that brother uh brother um runner asked me to come to take the church in Viselia, and she wept, she wept right there on the phone. He says, Mike, I knew it. I knew God is I knew this is the will of God, the will of God is happening right before her eyes. Uh God is she knew it, she felt God's presence. She was a woman that her prayer life was like midnight. Uh uh, she was a prayer warrior, I'm telling you. And you can feel it because people felt it all over uh we were at. Uh, and and and she comforted me and she she's giving me encouragement. Mike, it's the will of God. I feel it, it's right, and and God's gonna help us. And uh to let you know, um, Diane grew up in Arosi, California. Uh Dianu was the church that she was raised born in the Mexican Apostolic Church when she was in the LA area, born in the LA area and went to the what they call the Saliwa Church in East LA, one of the largest apostolic churches in probably in LA area at that time. And uh her parents went back up to Orosia, California to get out of the city. Uh her dad was a backslider. Her mother uh wasn't really in church well. She was raised Mexican Methodist, believe it or not. And um, and so uh when she they got to Orosi, they went on later on to Dainuba and meet, uh, met the pastor in Dainuba at that time, probably the first Mexican-American family to come to that church. And they did a voting, believe it or not, in those days. Uh things were different, but they didn't got offended. They didn't get offended. This is whatever we gotta do to be saved, we'll do it. And I thank God for that attitude again. And and that's where she got her her roots established there at six years old, there, uh, in Dainuba there, uh, with a great pastor, brother Bowie, then Brother Claiburn, and and who was a great momentum, mentor in her in her life. And um, she learned doctrine, she learned prayer, she started prayer life at six years old. She did not want her hair cut. Her dad, when they're in the Mexican Apostolic Church, she wanted they wanted to cut her hair and she turned around. She didn't even know doctrine yet. She already started her life, prayer life then. She was so sensitive to God. Her grandmother would walk with her to church every uh all the services and at that time, and who was only spoke Spanish. Uh, they were from South Texas in America, believe it or not, since the 1700s. Uh in South Texas. Uh and uh and so um, and so anyway, she did not want her hair cut. She was that's how dedicated she was. And so when I fell in love with her, God told me when I was 13 years old, 14, this is the girl that you're gonna marry. And I didn't want God telling me that because she was young. I wanted, I like the elder girls, not an 11-year-old girl. But later on down the road, I would it God put it in my heart. It was time to get to know her, time to um, I fell in love, we married, and again, fast-forwarded, here we are at this time in Visalia. So the Viselia area was where she grew up in the area where she shopped, her family and and people and so forth. So people knew her. And people pastors told me, one pastor said, Mike, you're going to Viselia, it's not you that's gonna bring revival, it's gonna be your wife, Diane. Because they knew her. And you know, when we got there, my mother-in-law had already had a group of family, Asian family, the uh Lahu families, bunches of them ready for me. She had one to God in my cellular. That's the way she was. She had a group already waiting for me. They got there before I moved there. And so it uh in and revival happened quickly. And and I give God the glory, the honor. Uh, the church was so receptive, they were ready for it, and all the things I learned from uh uh verbal being revival, Elder Toole, with the Cliver Clark, with the uh Randy Keys, um, and uh uh and my wife. It was put in me to have revival, stubborn faith. And I I went there doing that and believing God for that, and God blessed it with great, great uh growth and towards packed out. And and just a few years ago, two years ago, and half a years ago, I semi-retired to still be using the work of God. I felt it was the right thing to do in my life. Uh, and uh and so the going back now during the time when Michael fell and made his uh his his the the uh the crime that he committed, David Abbott, uh who was a great evangelist at that time from Arizona, who was from Stockton Bible College years ago, uh, was at just our church having revival in Viselia. And I remember getting a call from Modesto, Mike Torres, I need to talk to you. Uh it was my daughter-in-law's mother, and said, Can you please sit down? Are you sitting down? Are you somewhere I can talk to you? I said, Yes. And can you sit down? I sat down. I was and David Abbott was there. Uh I was kind of what is going on here, Mike. I need to tell you what happened. And boom, she tell me what happened and what and the the rest being made and all this stuff and the shock that was shocked at me, and and and and my world has never been the sense. I couldn't believe it happened. We did our uh our best, our spent money and and time and effort to raise our kids the very best. My son had out brow paternity, his grandfather owned a horse ranch, he knew horse riding, he knew how to break horses. Both of my sons are crack shots and rifles, they're outdoors, camped. They they were rugged type kids, sharp, loved people, loved God. I couldn't believe this uh this shock, a nightmare. You know, I called my wife sick with this cancer she's battling with at the time, and she took it well, but Mike, we're going to, she's honey, we're going to get through this. And it was so uh humiliating and having this ministry. Here I am in this church there, uh and the embarrassment and uh embarrassment to hope my son, my youngest son uh to me. My wife took it great, but she it really hurt her hurt us both. And um I remember I remember this. She she was being a woman of prayer, you know, uh came home and she says, Mike, I'm gonna tell you this. I had to take her to uh uh to jail to visit her. She'd never been in a place like that. There in my desktop's uh and went to this jail there, and and and she got into those bars and talked to him. Here she's battling cancer, talking to him and seeing him, and uh it was a her she, you know, mother never for uh there's nothing like the mother, a mother's love. Nothing like in all the world. And uh, she loved her son to the end. And and so uh I remember her crying to me one day, she says, uh, Michael, uh Dad, you know, she we saw we're gonna be at a long prison deal. We saw this handwriting on the wall. She says, Michael, what she says, Dad, Michael, talking to me, her husband, she says, honey, one thing I had a dream. She had a dream. She says, I had a dream that Michael was going to be going to prison. And now he Michael was heavy, over 200 pounds at that time, uh, real chunky. Uh, he liked to eat, and uh he was a hard worker. Um, and uh, and but he said, I had a dream that he was gonna go to prison, that he would come out free eventually, and he was gonna be skinny, and he was skinny, and that he was gonna be living for God. And he says, she said, honey, what really matters is the end results anyway. Whatever it takes for God to humble him, to say to save him, it's got to be. She saw that that's what was good about her. She saw brutal honesty. And uh, she's a very humble girl, but she saw when it came to truth, she had she did not run from truth, did not. And so, and she she's the one that encouraged me. And and um, and uh pastoring at that time with her sick, this deal in prison and and all of going to prison and and so forth really affected me. Uh and but God helped me through the grace of God and prayer again at their church. I'm telling you, there's nothing like prayer. And and and and so anyway, so after all these years now, uh, I did remarry uh Rebecca uh uh uh McDonald. Uh yes, she was widowed also. Her husband had been a lawyer and he died of cancer, and she was there in um uh in Louisiana there for a while for 20 years, and then she went up to be with her parents there uh in uh Little Rock uh Arkansas. She went to Brother Holmes Church, probably one of the larger apostolic churches in America, and there I I learned about her. I had someone that went there that used to work for me at the in Modesto, and um I called them and they were happening to be good friends of her brother and sister-in-law, and recommended her highly. And I contacted her and we and then we dated and and we married, and she's been a great, great help to me in my ministry and uh as a wife, and um her dad was a pastor all of her life. Her great uncle was a great uh uh wrote a lot of books and great in the ministry, given a lot of money. Um uh E B E Eccles, uh and so great influence in her life. And so, anyway, with all of that mix, and here now we've been married over 13 years, and here we are now in 2026. Uh, I've been 50 years in the ministry, over 40 uh full-time, uh almost 15 years, 14 years, uh 15 years as a pastor here in Bysalia, California. And uh here we are today, and I see my son living for God. And and and and believe it or not, he's now uh preaching out a little bit in the area that he's at in the Bay Area and being used of God sincerely. Again, his daughters are living for God. Thank God, and I'll talk about that later, but anyway, um so our ministry. So, so a ministry still continuing. I've been preaching out, helping people how to have revival to encourage churches, and but but the bigger thing, more of it than being a ministry, really, really for me is to be a Christian, whether I'm preach out anywhere else in my life again, whatever, whatever, I am gonna be a Christian, I'm gonna be a prayer warrior, I'm gonna be a soul winner. I love winning souls. I've done outreach in all over Madeira and Los Angeles area. Uh there when I was there in Bellflower, always bringing the church. Modesto, all over Modesto, went to Ukraine, uh, did outreach over there and revivals over there, been to the Philippines, knocking doors. We helped my wife and I started a church in the Philippines by accident. Unbelievable. I didn't know that would happen. And it's running about 40, 50 to 70, 80 people there. Where the Bataan Death March ended when that great revival happened in Manila, uh, 2001, 2000, whatever it was, we went there and started a church there by accident. We I went to Mexico, helped knock doors in Mexico, Costa Rica, Honduras, Hawaii, uh, Vyselia, wherever I go, Germany. I I was an elder of a church in Germany. Second, my second language at what time was German. I loved it. Uh so Germans get the Holy Ghost. There's no more one of the most stubborn people in the world I've ever prayed with was German people in Germany. Uh but in the Ukraine, we saw over a hundred people was baptized in Jesus' name. And uh Zaporozhia with the Russians have now taken over. Many people came to God, many were baptized in Jesus' name. I saw the first apostolic church that started there and in Kiev there. That's going today very strong with uh with bombs going, missiles going in from Russia. I'm telling you what, church, I never dreamed that this would happen. Being raised in Modesto in a semi-dysfunctional home, um, and uh so forth. But God, if God can use me, God can use any of you, and I don't care what you kids did in the past in God, God can bring them and use them greater than ever before. When it's all said and got done, God gets the victory, not the devil. And our our and we're and we we have battles till we die. I've learned that. And so that's part of the part of what I'm saying in my ministry. I'm maybe saying too much, but anyway, I love God, I love the Lord, and I love the ministry, I love winning souls and seeing people get the Holy Ghost. Amen.

SPEAKER_06 39:21

Brother Torres. I'm just sitting here taking it all in. Gosh, as you're talking, I'm thinking, oh, that's just like Michael. Oh, that's just like Michael. Oh my gosh, you guys are so parallel. And most of you probably maybe out there watching from home, maybe know Brother Torres, but I had no idea about Brother Torres or Michael Torres or his history um in the apostolic faith because I was a backslider for such a long time. And so I've been out of the loop in who's who in this movement. But to meet Brother Torres, you're so soft-spoken, you're so humble, you're so gentle in your spirit. And so to hear you as you were just now getting on fire for God, I just, I just think it's remarkable what God does when he just, you know, rests on a person and changes you to be a preacher, you know, outside of your normal, very gentle self. I think it's it's incredible. It was it was very exciting. And I can see, like I said, so many things because your son is the same. Oh, thank you. He's he's gentle. When he spoke at the unshackled conference, I was blown away at the shift and the anointing, you know, and the power, which is conviction, which is what you have, that conviction. You wrote you said so many little great one-liners a minute ago. I'm scrambling to write them down, but you're so right. Heaven is gonna be cheap at any cost, and and to not be offended. That is definitely something I think backsliders definitely share is not knowing how to get over offense and not knowing how to understand offense because it's not really taught to us. What most people think I think growing up in church, I say most people, I don't know if it's most people, but we I hear this from people. Well, if they are such great Christians, they should be all these things. And we don't ever stop and take into account that we are people and we have personalities and we are all not gonna get along with one another, but it's not that we don't love one another, it's just that we're different from one another. But um, you're so right about offense and you know, the plethora of everything else that you said, but what a wonderful heritage that you come from. And, you know, as you were talking about getting the Holy Ghost at camp meeting, you know, I was I was thinking about the parallels between you and Michael, because Michael also got the Holy Ghost and got on fire for God in a very this is my perspective from speaking with him on the podcast, you obviously lived it, but but from a very um hungry place such as you, you know, walking out into the orchards wanting to get alone and find time to pray, and you know, breaking into the church just to be alone to have time to pray. And you had such a sensitivity and hunger for the Lord, and just felt so drawn to the things of the Lord. And it seems that Michael had that also, but he didn't know how to navigate the emotional landscape. Did you find that? Did you notice that about him when he was younger?

SPEAKER_01 43:07

Yes, yes. Every child is different, and I could tell, you know, probably when we left Modesto, I was concerned. I was concerned, I wish he could have came with us. And he was thinking about coming with it.

SPEAKER_06 43:23

And was he already divorced in his marriage?

SPEAKER_01 43:26

They were married married still at the time and had two children, and bought a home, a nice home. Uh you know, when he gets single, when he gets focused, nothing stops him. You know, but when he gets unfocused, which is easy, and which e really can happen to all of us, as a matter of fact, we do. We do, yes. Yes, we do. The first church that God rebuked there in the churches of Asia was Ephesus. And they were the most perfect church. Right. And they went off the deep end, yet they believed the doctrine, they still were perfect. Pentecostal, but what they did is they make their their doctrine and their Pentecostal religion instead of God.

SPEAKER_05 44:07

Right.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

And we've got to make God our purpose and reason. Right. And all those things come together, follows God.

SPEAKER_06 44:14

Right. The relationship.

SPEAKER_01 44:16

The relationship. The relationship.

SPEAKER_06 44:18

Did you notice when he was a boy his sensitivity to the things of God?

SPEAKER_01 44:25

Absolutely. Five years he got the received the Holy Ghost, I believe, about five.

SPEAKER_06 44:30

Oh, he was five.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

Five, five or six. Very young. Very young. God filled with the Holy Ghost. He he w he started praying young. He started learning the scriptures young. We played Bible records from birth, prayer at birth. I take him with me to the church before work when he was a child, months old, a few months old to go pray. I used to see Brother Clark do that. And I wanted to do the same thing.

SPEAKER_06 44:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

You know, I did everything I was supposed to be.

SPEAKER_06 44:57

You know, Brother Torres, but you you didn't do anything wrong. I think God had a bigger plan. And and it's hard for us. I know it is so hard for us to think that what has transpired in the life of a prodigal can be a plan of God.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 45:14

I don't think it's his perfect will because it comes with so many scars.

SPEAKER_02 45:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 45:19

But he does use it for good. That's right. That's right. And he we have a generation of backsliders that you know we're going to reach because we backslid. And I definitely not making a uh excuse or a um justification, but I believe God is going to use it for good. But Michael said something when he was here. I think he believes. I definitely believe. I wonder what your thoughts are. But he said called from birth in his mother's womb. And you know, I I know we're super deconditioned to giving titles, so I won't do that. But I I look at people through the lens of their spiritual sensitivity, and and it's a different level than maybe what others have. Some people have a very deep depth of the things of God and the sensitivity towards the things of God. Yes. And that becomes a heavy, a heavy, heavy place to walk, especially when you're young and you don't understand that kind of sensitivity. But so you confirm that you feel like he's always had it since he was little.

SPEAKER_01 46:37

Very, very sensitive God. And even when into prison, you know, he he he he he preached, he sang songs, got in the bands there.

SPEAKER_06 46:47

He uh there, believe it or not, I didn't know he played the guitar until he was here.

SPEAKER_01 46:51

Bass. Yeah. Bass. Very yeah. And uh he sings a lot of kinds of music. You know, I am from an Appalachian background, and he he played Appalachian music and uh that kind of music, and he learned learned that. And so he would sing. And one one week, I want to tell you this. One week he called me or text me, or whatever it was. That one week 30 people were baptized in Jesus' name in that federal prison.

SPEAKER_05 47:16

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 47:17

30, about 30. He he would have church, he would talk, and there's a church that would come and visit, uh, preach speak for uh a number of years, and there were a lot of backsliders from all over America, apostolic ministry that were pastors that were all kinds of walks of life, all colors, all cultures, and they came to him and uh uh and act for prayer and and during COVID, you know, uh three times as many people died during COVID in prisons in America than out in a normal because in prison it's not a piece of cake, it's bad. It really is. And um, and so but he he they knew who he was, and and he'd prayed with them. And to say he was perfect in prison, no, it's very, very rough. Yeah, it's very rough, it's a totally different thing. So I'm I'm gonna be very careful what I say. Uh but when I he was always it was good to see him, but he still had a fervent so we'd pray together. We would people would when I walk in there in prison, people would say, We love Michael, he loves God, and we could we a lot of them would go to him for counseling and prayer. So I believe that. He's called, yes, yes, he was called. And he was a blessing to a lot of those people in prison, in prison. Many of them throughout America have contacted him, flying him out to to see him, lots of money sent to him. Uh he he he it's unbelievable what's happened. I it's hard for me to fathom what's happening.

SPEAKER_06 48:46

Yeah, yeah. But God's but God's using it for good and good. And I think you know that um not understanding who God has called you to be as a kid, that mantle is heavy, the the and it is a lonely, lonely road. Oh, and that is something that people don't always understand because our our instinct is to look inward and figure out what's wrong with us and why isn't God answering this prayer and what have I done wrong without understanding the call upon a person's life, it doesn't make sense. And I'm sure at that time Michael didn't understand the call on his life.

SPEAKER_01 49:28

Right, he did not.

SPEAKER_06 49:29

Do you feel like he does now?

SPEAKER_01 49:31

Yes, now. Now he's much more humbler now, that is for sure. God has humbled him. Yeah, I've never seen him more humble than now.

SPEAKER_06 49:43

Yeah, yeah. He was when I met him, but I had no experience with him before.

SPEAKER_01 49:48

I'm not saying that he wasn't humble. Obviously, you when you backslide, you kind of get your own will.

SPEAKER_06 49:54

Oh, we do. That's what causes us to backslide. It's our will. It is, it is, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:02

You know, we're we're body, soul, and spirit. Right. But but we have a soul, and it lives forever. But really determines our eternity is our heart and mind. Yes. Wherever our heart wants. Right. And that goes back to the will.

SPEAKER_06 50:14

Yeah. And so much of that is rooted in wounds. That's right. You know. And um, when when he was here, he talked about his loneliness. Did you ever notice that for him when he was younger? Did you notice because he he talked about being a part of the crowd at church with the youth, but never feeling like he fit into the crowd and how lonely he would feel when he went home.

SPEAKER_01 50:39

You know, now that you've been brought this up and says he's been out, and since the last broadcast that you did with him, there's some things I never heard before that as I began to ponder, I saw that. You know, he would get in retrospect. Yeah, retrospect. He was one that would get up at the midnight and go to church and pray all night by himself. He didn't want to be by with other people.

SPEAKER_06 51:00

He would go in the woods and you were like you were like that, brother Torres.

SPEAKER_01 51:04

Now that you think about that, you were like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 51:07

You also share a love for language. You spoke German and he speaks Hebrew.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

I I took six years of French, six years of German. When I was I I was born in a semi-dysfunctional home, uh lower level poverty. Not dirt poor, uh, but lower level, I would say. And um uh my dad worked hard. We always had food, my own parents owned property, uh, but I I knew that I was gonna make it in life, I I'm gonna make it through education. Yeah, that was my goal. And I wanted to, uh I wanted to be either CI agent or professor or sell international salesman.

SPEAKER_06 51:45

So I took you to say CIA agent.

SPEAKER_01 51:47

Yeah, I did. I wanted adventure. That's why I traveled so much. Your son is your son. I wanted, and that's why I took German 12 years old. I wanted I studied artists at 12 years old, I went to the library and said, What did you have to do? If you I wanted to be uh international, CIA, not domestic, that's boring. Right. I want to travel the world. Oh my god, if you knew another language, and so that's why I took German, French, I was gonna take Russian and Chinese in college, and and so, but when Nixon came along and went to China, I said in my mind, man, he's opening the doors. I saw the salesman. If I could be an international salesman, I'll learn if I learn Chinese and Russian. This is when I was in sophomore in high school when he went to China. I said, if I can do that, I'll make bucks. I wanted to be successful. I really did. Forget the CIA, forget the professor. There's no money on that. Yeah, but at that time, a good salesman international is making probably a million a year. Wow at that time. I I I looked into that. International sales, arm arm sales is the biggest sales in the world. Still is, it's been that way for a hundred years. Yeah, and so I saw it. And then you know I was a hundred percent right. Yeah, yeah. But God called me to the ministry, married young, God had a different direction in my life. Yeah, and you know what? I have no regrets. No regrets, no regrets, God's taking care of me. Yes, and family.

SPEAKER_06 53:10

Yes, thank God for it. But boy, that that is so interesting, don't you think? That's a parallel. Yes, you know, you had like this um, I want to say thirst for adventure kind of and boy, very bright to even understand that you needed to make money, understand that language was a way for you to separate yourself. That's incredibly smart for such a young age. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 53:38

I took them to Ukraine with me. I went three times to Ukraine. I was gonna be a missionary there. I learned Ukrainian, Russian, at least to get by.

SPEAKER_06 53:44

Oh my word.

SPEAKER_01 53:45

Even was trying to, even was uh my second time I went alone, they accused me of being a spy. Oh and they took me down in the basement with those lights and they're Russian, the Ukrainian, and they said, You're an American spy, because I knew at that time a lot of American missionaries went in SCI spies around the world. I knew that. I already knew that uh at that time. Oh my god. And it happened to me, and they pushed the paper to me to sign. I said, What do you want me to sign? They are Russian, there's Russian, they said it was your sign confession that you are a spy. I pushed that back, and they said, uh, they said, I said, I ain't signing this thing. I'm not no spy. Then I threw a$100 bill in there trying to bribe them because they like bribes. And these were the honest ones. They pushed it back and said, No, we're not gonna be bribed. I'll be honest, I rose my voice and I got anxious and passionate. And we went back and forth. My cab driver was in translating the best he can, and but we were going back and forth, and finally they they took out this paper and they said, Mr. Torres, we because of your passion, we believe you're you are being truthful, and we're gonna give you an exit out of here and deal. Wow. And they I got out by God, the will of God. Otherwise, I could have been in Siberia today having prison ministry over there.

SPEAKER_06 55:01

Yeah, you know. Wow. Well, God, God gave you your desire to travel and to explore, you know. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 55:09

Yeah, been all over the world. I love it. I love it. Uh what I wanted to do.

SPEAKER_06 55:13

Yeah, that's it. I I do believe that God gives us our desires, He does the desires of our minds. My desires.

SPEAKER_01 55:20

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_06 55:21

Okay, I'm gonna tick through this uh this question list. When did you so before I go on, Brother Torres? I don't think that parents make mistakes with their children. I think parents do the best they can, you know, and um I think especially from a therapeutic standpoint, every family has some level of dyspunk dysfunction. But that's just because we're people, you know, and everyone comes to the table with backgrounds and baggage. But you know, the common denominator I s I think, especially when you raise your children in church, and for me growing up in church, is you go to church, you get a touch from the Lord, you you get a great message. It kind of wipes away all all of the things happening at home. But you know, for you and other parents out there and my parents, like it's not your guys' fault. It's it's I needed to learn the things about God that He has taught me through my experience. And you know, did He ever want me to backslide? I don't believe so. Right, but and I don't believe you ever wanted Michael to backslide, but we did, but he kept us. Yes, he he kept us, he never left us. I can look back and often I do in my prayer time. Man, God never ever left me, and there's many times I could have not been here today, and you know, so we have a way different testimony, but it's not um it's not the fault of it's not the fault of you. And I and I hope for any other parent who has children that are backslide that you hear this loud and clear, that uh we honor you as our parents because um it's our own walk and it's our own journey, and we have to find it on our own. And and there's so many contributing factors that cause us to fall away from the Lord. Um it's it's not the family who loved us and taught us about Jesus. Yes, yes, you're you know, we we have stuff, you know, things to heal, but we would have things to heal no matter what. Yes, because we're people.

SPEAKER_01 57:49

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_06 57:51

So I just I wanted to just say that to you because I I you know you did a good job.

SPEAKER_01 57:58

And I appreciate that. It was, you know, he did. I remember one time he would he were either on the phone or in person and it was intense moment talking to one another, and and it was really made me feel good. He says, Dad, you and mom taught us right. Yeah, you taught us right.

SPEAKER_04 58:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:18

Basically, don't blame yourself.

SPEAKER_04 58:20

Right.

SPEAKER_01 58:20

It was his fault.

SPEAKER_04 58:21

Right.

SPEAKER_01 58:21

He made the decision. And as parents, we want to control everything. Right. The moment we the a baby's born, our child is born, basically, little by little, we're losing control.

SPEAKER_05 58:32

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:34

And and we want to control their future, who they marry, their career, because we want this utopia we want the best for them. The best for them. Right. But the normally doesn't go that way. Right. And at a time you have to release them and give them back to God.

SPEAKER_04 58:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:50

And that's what we had to do, and it was rough. It was very tough. It's a death. It feels like a death. They say a death, uh, we go to a thousand deaths in our life.

SPEAKER_04 58:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:00

A death is when we lose separation. When we kids go to kindergarten, it's a death in a way, they never be the same. Kids got our license, the driver's license, it's never the same when our kids when they get married, it's never the same. And when things like the major spiritual decisions are not well, yeah, it's not the same. But that's yes, you're right. Good point. Good point.

SPEAKER_06 59:23

What um when did you notice that Michael was starting to struggle and um go sideways a little bit? Uh how old was he? When did you start to notice as a father?

SPEAKER_01 59:36

I would say after he got married, uh well, even before marriage, at times I could tell he would go into um mild depression. Um he's definitely AHD. Okay. We we know these labels. I don't even like use the labels, but a lot of people have that. Okay. And and so um, and part of that is is a low depression. And I no doubt I have some of that. And uh, but David did too, okay. David did, yes. You could tell he's bipolar from one end to the end. The Psalms covers every mood of emotion a human being can be.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:14

But uh also, you know, uh when you're sensitive to the spirit realm, when you're sensitive in general, you feel everything from everybody.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:24

You're right.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:25

And so there's a lot of things like number one, I don't think Michael knew who he was in in any of that. And so he didn't understand what was coming at him being married, like you know, so I think when you're when you're highly sensitive and you marry somebody and they're having a bad day, you're gonna have a bad day.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:48

Correct.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:49

And so depression is very much follows that, but it again originates from the call, it originates from the wiring in which God placed in a person, yes, and that's a very different thing than something that's faulty.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:05

Very good. Does that make sense? Yes, it does make sense.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:08

Um and I think, you know, obviously I don't know your history, but I I feel like there is, you know, so many people out there that are deeply sensitive to the things of the Lord, you know, um secular people call them in paths, intuitives, right? Yes. But when when God wires a person, he does not make a mistake. But if we do not understand that about ourselves, we will be very susceptible to what's happening in our environment.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:40

That's correct.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:41

And we have to control it, which you you would leave into the orchard and go down to the church and get away somewhere along the line. You understood that you needed to be alone with the things of the Lord and and he did too. Yes, obviously.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:58

Yes, he did. He did. Yes, and yes, you're right. You're right. And and going looking back now, I can see the that time where he kind of didn't pray like he should have. And still young and in some ways immature. Right. And even really uh most of us teenagers have made mistakes when we're young. Yeah, yeah. But none of us are perfect.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:22

You know, brother Torres, maybe you could talk about that for a second because I I know that with me as a believer, my faith was in God. I just I just knew he could do miracles. I just knew that he was directing my steps. I just knew everything was gonna be okay. I did not understand our adversary, and I did not understand that when the Lord gives us a vision or gives us a word, we're supposed to pray into that to bring it into fruition. Like none of these things we learned, we just grew up with such simple faith in God to do everything.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:05

Yes.

Why Prayer Is Not Optional

SPEAKER_06 1:03:05

And so, you know, when you said Michael didn't pray as much at times as he should have, you know, I think about, I wonder what he was thinking, if if that was the beginning of a drift, or if his confidence was just in God, that God was with him and that God was gonna take care of it, because as he said when he was here, he'd done everything right. He'd been obedient, he'd followed the plan of the Lord, and then to have things fall apart in such a way for him, it did he didn't understand. Could you kind of share with us the necessity of prayer? I think every Christian out there understands prayer is needful, but you know, I feel like there's a little piece we miss that we take for granted.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:56

I believe you're right. You're right. As a minister now, over 50 years with thousands of people all over the world, and I'm not some great preacher or I'm not gonna brag on myself. That's crazy. I'm I'm really a lower end, I just just want to reach the lost and be used of God. That's all. And and so, but I know this. I have learned and and seen that prayer, if I had any regret, and we all have regrets. Yes, I wish I'd prayed more. Yeah, okay. I don't feel like I prayed enough. I think most men or women they will say the same thing, and that the answer is still prayer. When God made man mankind, Adam and Eve, He made them for the purpose of communication.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:44

And and and as you know, in a husband and wife, when there's not good communication, it's not going good in a marriage. God wants a relationship with us. Marriage came from God. Studying history, where did what culture started marriage? It wasn't no culture, it came from God. There's marriage all over the world. Even Adolf Hitler, a a psychopath, got married the last few moments before he died, commit suicide. Uh why? Why did he do that with the with a reprobate mind, so to speak? Um, it's the soul. And and so um going back to this, sometimes we get think we can solve our own problems, right? And we can't. I am I feel now that everyone is born dysfunctional. We're all dysfunctional. You want to say that that family is dysfunctional.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:33

We have to be. We're born into sin.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:34

We're born into sin. You're exactly right. We're related to the worst criminals in the world. Right. We're relate, we're related. Uh we're not far as much as you think we are. Right. And in our family, there's adultery, there's murders, there's uh everything. Drunks, drugs, everything in all of our families. If we look at the skeletons in the closet, we don't want to bring out. And and yet when we we see How life really is. We're really dysfunctional, and we really without God, we cannot do anything. And without prayer, we'll never be an overcomer. If we're ever gonna be an overcomer, which we have to be to go to heaven, we've got to have a relationship with God. It's all about what's more important than prayer. Right. There's nothing more important than prayer because you're talking to God. It's important to talk to our spouses, to our children. That is for today. But, but, but God is our the once all said and done is our God. And we've got to have a walk with him. Right. So important from day two years old or sooner for the rest of our life. The rest of our life.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:45

Yeah. And I I think I think that is part of the missing link we're growing up. Prayer was just, I don't know that it was ever, at least in my life, really understood from a place of relationship and and just spending time with the Lord. It was about, Lord, I need you to help me here. I need you to help me here. I mean, I would, I'd have great times with the Lord. He would visit me and I could hear him talk to me. But still, we go about our daily life just with self-sufficiency, doing it on our own. And then we go to God with the things that we need help in versus just simply missing him and just wanting to be in his presence, which I think as we get older we understand that a little bit more. You know, and I think that's the the other side of prayer, if you will, you know, that communion with him. Yes. Um, yeah. But when we're kids growing up, there's so much we don't understand. And there's so much again, it's nobody's fault. We just didn't know to ask the questions. Right. We didn't even know how to explore what we didn't know. Right. But you know, we just learn having gone through some experiences now. So you you felt like Michael was beginning to struggle and just was trying to handle it on his own and and um didn't yes, and and his marriage was rocky.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:15

Yeah. Rocky.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:16

From the beginning, or did it grow into that?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:19

It probably grew into that. Yeah. And um, yeah, that and I you know, of course, every parent wants their children to make it in the marriage. Right. And you know, even a therapist, you know, that happens everywhere. And we're seeing it now more than ever. And um, and so again, that communication, you know. Um and oh, I I can't I can't overestimate prayer. I cannot. I cannot. If we're going to make it through life, we have to have prayer. We've got to do it.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:53

Well, when when the Bible says that Jesus will say, Depart, I never knew you, like he can't know us if we're not talking to him and having a relationship with him.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:04

What is knowing? The word know in the Hebrew really means to be intimate.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:08

Right. You know, it does.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:09

In the Bible, the know means intimacy, right? Sexual intimacy. Right. In the spirit with God, right? It's imminentcy with God. Right. How often do we get really imminent with God? Right. Only when we're desperate. Right. Is that why God has to do allow desperate things to happen in our life to draw us to Him? Right, right. That's sad. Right. We should be able to do it because we love to and we and we want to. Yeah. But we're human, we're dysfunctional. Yeah. We are self-willed. He is healing us. Yes, and He does give us a uh sovereign, you know, is a sovereign make our decisions. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:41

Yeah. I heard uh I heard someone say um not long ago that God will give you the desires of your heart. So you better be careful of what it is you desire because you will get them. You know, we have to line up our desires with I know, I mean, I lived it for a very long time. We lied about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:01

Yeah, yes. We do what we want to do. Right. We really do. Yeah. Our kids do what they, you know, we think we control it, we can't. Right. Could our parents control us? We grow up, no way. Right. We don't want them picking our spouses or picking our whole life with us. And we our kids don't either. Right. And and it's hard to understand that till you go through that. Right. Finally, we have to raise them to where they they know where to go to when it's ready.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:28

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:29

And hopefully they'll stay that way the rest of their life, or they don't, they backslide. And that I took it hard. It humbled me. I had to look at a different precept. I would go, I'd go see Michael in prison. There we are, there in um outside of Color uh Denver, Colorado, was the eastern side of the mountains. And there uh I'd go up into the mountains there. I mean, it was the western side of the mountain, the western side, I'm sorry. And there I'd overlook and I'd see the prison right there. I was over the prison, Red Rock. And there I would weep and cry, weep and cry after see him all day and uh wondering, God help me, why did this happen, why, why? But you know, as time went on, God said uh He he knew in the beginning this was going to happen. Right. It's all in under his controlled. And he still called him. Yeah that's correct. That's correct.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:18

Um, Brother Torres, so you when you and uh your wife moved to Viselia, you said that you were worried about leaving him. Yes. What were you seeing? What were the signs showing up for you that you felt like you were concerned?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:36

He was very close to his mother. Both my sons were very close to their mother. And my wife was a prayer warrior. He kept midnight prayed a couple hours. That was her deal. On face on the floor, and he was that, but anyway, so he he would come by a lot throughout the day and talk to her, and and uh they would talk and discuss everything with A to Z. And he uh he was needy, yeah, he was needy, and I saw that, and I felt now this break always gonna be tough. I felt that I felt with her cancer diagnosed cancer diagnosed, been away from him no longer. Yeah, but he'd come by the day and see her and talk to her. So the move was you were worried about yeah. I I I felt like it just just wasn't, I didn't feel comfortable. Yeah. I'm a father, right? I want I you know, you feel like I just felt insecure. Yeah. And I was right.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:30

Yeah, because you understood his connection to his mom. Did you ask him to come with you guys? Did you is that an option?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:37

I know he had talked about mo c transferring his job, and he was he was looking into transferring, and I was hoping that would be. Um our grandkids bias, that's for sure. And and him, and I felt that he would be an asset to our church. And um, but it didn't work out that way. You know, he you know, it was it was them. He really he was a family unit, it was just him, him. So they had to make a decision together.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:05

And somehow, in that he wanted to, but felt a pressure to stay. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:10

Yeah, had an obligation to others, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so after you guys moved here, how long was it before you got the phone call?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:20

Oh, I would say, see, I was almost two years before she died. It was over it was l about a year and a half. A year, a year and a half after you guys moved here. Yeah, at least a year. Okay. If not right on that point.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:35

And had he already been separated from his wife?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:39

No, no, they were having rockiness for sure.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:42

Okay. So some of you guys watching may not know the story of his son, um, but um what was said to you that day you got the phone call, and all of this was completely unknown to you.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:57

Totally shocked.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:58

Okay, no idea what he was doing or thinking, or okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:02

Yeah, and no idea. No idea. I know that I tried calling whole Michael a few times, he didn't return the call, something was wrong. So I remember something like that. And I when she when that got the call, Michael just got arrested, and he'd done he he done you know, a robbery. And um robbery, and I and I again was shocked. And I I I really went into uh I don't want to say coma, but it was stunned. Yeah, I was stunned. Yeah, like a stun gun, really. Uh and I didn't know what to do. I didn't and David Abbott, who was there, began to talk to me. Yeah. He was a great, great man of wisdom for sure. Uh comforting. And um, so I I I need God as a shock, honestly. Yeah. It would be a shock to any parent.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:53

Well, that level, um, so I sorry, I'm gonna say so. For anybody watching, he his son was arrested for bank robbery for banks. And if you ever met Michael, you just can't imagine he would do it. Um, but coming from an apostolic home with a pastor as a dad, that would be very, very difficult. Yes, yes. And no signs, you know. That's the thing, is there was just no indication that that he was even considering or struggling financially or anything like that. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:29

And it was struggling financially. Yes, yes, yeah. And I wish he'd come talk to us, like an enormous parent. Come talk to us, let's see what we can do to help you, advice, whatever. Not that. He just and really lost it, lost all reasoning, yeah, and fear, and and the devil got, you know, won that day. Yeah, but not for good. Right. And uh it's yeah, it was oh, you know, when we as a parent hear any bad news, it can be all c anything, right? It could be going a different lifestyle, it could go train transgender, it could be uh uh adultery, it's a thousand ways to do deep sin. All those things, all of that's a shock, all of it is hard to get understand at all. And that's where we need God, and we need ministers in our life, a pastor. Right. I went to my pastor immediately, and he was there for me, but Clip Clark and another John Runner had others there, and I have to admit, I had a lot of support, a lot of support, part more than most people had tremendous support, and um and so wow, but God had to humble him. Yeah, and sometimes you have to let go and pray, and that's all you've got is prayer and and face on God. And you can't give up. You can never give up. Right and love them no matter what. Right. No matter what, to the end. Yeah, to the end.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:54

And that's hard for parents because they don't know how to they don't know how to understand, they don't know what it means, they don't know, you know, I I imagine they feel like they don't know their child, and then they feel like they don't know themselves, and then it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:10

You're right, you're right. You are absolutely right. We all have this, all of us parents want our kids to obtain the best position in life that they can and live for God. Okay, but and we live on these hopes, yeah. And when those hopes are dashed, and then we see they make a free fall into something you never you do not bring them up to do, right? Um then you see that we have to go back to humanity. We are dysfunctional after all. Yeah, we have to be honest, right? We have to humble ourselves, right? Okay, we're really honest. Our children have gone through a deep deal like other people in the Bible. That David, look what David did. Yes, he could cause a lot of issues, more sins than saw than than Saul. But Saul went into rebellion, he went to apostasy, but David still had a respect for God and the ministry. And Michael never did lose the the respect for ministry. Never did. Brother Clark went and saw him, other people went to saw him. Uh to this day, he has greatest respect for ministry.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:15

Uh and that's a fear of the Lord. That's a fear of the Lord. Brother, the fear that that will save us in the end if we will have that.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:23

Because it it's just you know, um the fear of the Lord is is just that line that we don't we like. It seems crazy, you know, being a bank robber and the things that I've done that we've crossed so many lines, right? But there is a line that those who have the fear of the Lord understand and feel, and we don't cross that because we there's like we do have a knowledge of God and we understand not to go beyond that. Yes. I think, I think, you know, the longer I I do this is we really don't have a love or a value for ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:05

I agree with you. You know, what are the two greatest commandments? Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, so the might, and thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Now I'm into, I preach now, we need to love ourselves. Right. I'm not saying being in love with ourselves. Yeah, not selfishness, selfishness, right? But to love ourselves because I've heard from a rabbi that the man that doesn't treat his wife right doesn't really love himself.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:31

Yeah, well, that's biblical.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:32

And if we treat people how we love each other, that's why we love ourselves, right? Then we're going to treat them with love.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:38

Yeah. Oh, so it's so easy for us backsliders to not care what happens to us because we don't have value for ourselves. Right. That has to come from God. But we do value God. Yes, and we we do reverence Him. So thankful Michael never lost that. He didn't listen to that.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:58

Thank God.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:59

And many other backsliders that are out there haven't lost it either.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:02

Some of them, yes. There are backsliders out there I know of. They're still praying every night, yes, still living by some standards that they were taught. Right. Because they believed that. They believed it. Yes. They believe it's still God. They believe it's God. They just relationship. The value in the relationship they had before.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:20

Right. Because I think so many, at least in my generation, maybe didn't know how to separate the relationship from the church. I know that I never knew how to do that. And I remember, you know, telling the Lord when I came back, I remember exactly where I was standing. And I just, I just felt the Lord say, you know, look up, keep your eyes on me. Because if I'm looking at him, I'm not going to look at this. But that is so hard. But I I went through a season of separating my church culture from who God was to me at that season and place in my life as I was trying to make my way home. Right, you know, to him. And that's a difficult untangling.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:07

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:07

But a necessary untangling. Because look, I'm back in an apostolic church. But it does, it is a process that and it takes time. Yes. And not for everybody. Yes, yes. It took time for me, but my story is not. You're still progressing. Right, right. Were you telling me that? Right, yeah. Still, still and I'm getting better. I'm very happy about the things that God has changed in me and my, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:32

Um okay. So no. Um I asked these. Sorry, people at home. I made a list of questions for Brother Torres. Um, how did how did what happened with Michael affect your relationship with your wife and how the two of you guys dealt with that so close to, you know, she's already three years into her cancer diagnosis?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:01

Oh, that's a good question. I'm gonna be honest with you. Um my wife was was a very strong person. Uh she wasn't uh like me, sanguine, and you know, uh she was straight. Uh she saw you, she was honest and with deep love. And so she had a lot of strength in her. Um and so when I in a way she was an encourager to me. She spent went in more prayer. Uh, and of course I did too. And so our it didn't affect our relationship with each other. It's just I felt bad for her for in this stage of life that she had to go through things this way. It was uh it hurt. I was hurt. I was deeply hurt, and I was upset at Michael. I had to a lot of times I had to pray God for me to forgive him. Yes, we had to forgive all the time, right? All the time. Right. Almost every time one saw him, I had to ask God to forgive him. I'd weep, God help me to forgive him.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:02

Uh because it feels like a betrayal.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:05

It's a betrayal, it's a betrayal of values that we taught you. Right. You know, they weren't seeing it that way at the time. Right, you know, and most people don't. Right. Uh, and we all look at it differently. But uh back to our marriage, yeah, and we had bound together and we encourage one another and and all of that. Uh there was a time that he did get out for on bail for about 30 days, 45 days, I can't remember. He did come spend time with with Michael, uh, with my wife. And it was very, very good. What one of our his daughters with us, and it was very good. And that would be the last time she would see him. And he when she died in the funeral, was really bad, Kathy. Is I um um he couldn't be there. Yeah, you know, it could not, it was impossible. And and but we you know what we had to do it. But again, it's not our fault, right? It was his.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:55

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:56

And I did mention uh the way of the transgressor is hard. Yeah, it's hard.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:01

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:01

But I had to do it with love. I did everything with love. I loved him. I loved him. I loved him, he knew it. I know we can't lose our love for our children ever, ever to the darkest hour. Right. You cannot. We have they have to have someone that has faith in them. Yeah, and I did have faith in him.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:17

But you also had a role to play as as uh husband, yes, um, as a minister, as a father, yes, and that role is not easy to do the right thing when your heart is broken and you know how it might be perceived. Yes, you know, because I would imagine I I have no idea, I'm speculating, but I would imagine that would be a very sore, difficult thing for him and for you for him to not be able to be at the funeral.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:53

Oh, it was, it really was. It really was. Yes, yes. That is anyone in prison that whose parents have died that can't be there, you know, you know they're going through a dark time to be there. They're blaming themselves. Right. They're blaming themselves. And and we don't want them blaming themselves till they do something off the cliff. Right, right. And that's why we have to keep this balance. Right. We can't, you know, he already knows what he did. Me to go in there and get out of him was not gonna do anything. Right. I was there to encourage him, to love God, stay close to God, right? Stay protected. Right. You know, because I wanted him out, and God did see the day he was out. Yeah, I did see that. Yeah, and and again had a lot of support. He had a lot of support.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:32

And your wife was confident because God had given her that dream that he would get out.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:37

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:38

He she so she didn't fear, she didn't doubt, she she walked in faith.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:42

She had walked in faith totally, totally. Wow. In a way, she walked in more better faith than I did.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:49

Yeah, and uh Well, that's what facing mortality, I think, does for us, right? It just our dependency for God just is greater.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:59

You depend everything on God, yeah. Everything and honesty, true honesty. Yeah and really when to virtue, honesty, and truthfulness and humility. They all go together. Yeah, you can't have one without the other.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:13

And that's what true mility is, where you see what you really are at.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:18

Really in the mirror, and you see all the pimples and the dots and whatever they may be in our body. Yeah. You and we gotta be that way with God. And we're that way, then we can then ask God to help us and depend on him and walk away and leave contented and in peace. Because peace is a spiritual word.

SPEAKER_06 1:26:36

Absolutely. He is the prince of peace. That's right. Spirit of peace. That's correct.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:41

That's correct.

SPEAKER_06 1:26:42

How long was it before you went to visit him, Brother Torres?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:45

Okay, I did he did go to the jail in Mod uh I'm sorry, to like a uh extended jail uh in Modesto, which was very county jail at first, uh, because they didn't know what to do with them. Uh because it was federal, for him to wait uh for federals to pick him up. And and and so I did go see him there. So I was able to see him shortly afterwards, maybe after 30 days or afterwards, to go see him in jail and and all of that. Um and the funny thing when he left my when the FBI and uh federal police came to get him at n early in the morning, they said, Where do you live? He didn't live very far from where the jail where they were taking him from. And he says, We'll take you by the house. They went by the house at four in the morning, they went and knocked on her door. Here, we have your husband here. Would you like to see the and the kids see him before I take we take him?

SPEAKER_05 1:27:37

Wow, that was very kind.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:39

I was touched. Yeah. They they came out there in their cloth night clothes and went to talk to him in the car. That had to be heartbreaking. And they didn't have to do that. They did not. That was the Lord. The Lord, God was with him all the way. Yes, all the way. There were people from the dustal church visiting him. Way and even when he went, I'll just say this. So he went to Fresno, and then I got to see him because Fresno myself is right there. And down the street, we used to speak for the conference one time there, Apostolic Conference there. Uh he the hot it was on the same street almost, a few blocks away, you know, and and then he went to Bakersfield for a while, a holding tank there. And um, but when he got to another another city in the desert, uh uh, I think it's federal, um, and someone there, a psychologist, a psychiatrist, talked to him. And he said, Michael, I can I can't believe this, and I'm not supposed to say this. There's somebody I know that knows you. Oh, this is Southern California.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:41

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:41

So there's somebody personally, a friend of mine that knows who you are. And because of this, I'm not supposed to do this, but I'm gonna give you extra help so you can get by it without taking medication.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:52

Yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:53

And she took extra time and spending time here on psychological into a spiritual way that took him the rest of his life. Everywhere he went, but the clock went and saw him up in the up in Palome, Perump in a in a in a this prison that's professional, that's they're not even real guards. Yeah, they're by ideal. And they tried someone tried to try him there. You know, you got attacks of sexuality there, people think they they abuse sexual abuse, and and and and someone tried that with him, and they thought because he's a Christian, but it was also very strong, and it was taught combat by his brother, his uncle that was a bartender here in this town at one time, and a very strong individual. And um, and he he took care of business and they yell and scream, and no one left him alone. No one left him alone. You know, he you know, he was a man.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:41

And he and he and sometimes you have to do things in prison you just don't like to talk about.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:46

And I think, you know, to that point, um men take their responsibility to their families very seriously, and I think that had to have been ingrained in him. That's why I never come to you guys. He was trying to be a man then. I see that.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:03

You're right. He was, he was trying to be that. Yes, yes. It's humbling to come to ask for parents when you're a grown man with kids for help. Right. It really is. Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:12

Because it's so it's it's counterintuitive to what we're taught a man is supposed to be, especially if you're raised in church. Yeah you know. So I think uh again, speculating, but I think that was just his trying to do his duty to his family and being honorable, ironically, right? Trying to be honorable, you know.

unknown 1:30:37

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:38

It doesn't make sense to rob a bank, but his heart was in the right place. And God was God is always judging our heart, and Michael's heart was in the right place.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:47

It was in the right place. Yes. He just made the wrong decisions. Yes, yes. And anyone can't.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:52

And it's the I was gonna say it's it's very easy to do because we justify, because it makes sense when it's coming from a place of purity, and we do not understand how that can be pure, but the motive is That's right. You know, the motive is it's just an error in judgment, but we don't always know those things. That's correct. You know, we don't always know those things.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:18

We think of pr when we think of our children going to jail or prison, to us we think it's the end of the world. Right. It's not always the end of the world. Right. You look in the Bible, a lot of people were in prison. They were some were not guilty and some were guilty. Right. We look at Joseph in prison for what, probably 13 years, maybe 18 to 13 for for being innocent.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:38

And look where God elevated him to.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:40

Look at Paul after he was converted in jail between five and six years. Yeah, some think he was imprisoned at least in jail four to seven times. You know, yeah, yeah. Think about it all through look at the Jesus on the cross, the last man in jail with him there. Right. Somehow he had heard all these stories, and got his first one, his last acts, you uh you should see me in paradise.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:03

Think about that. Yeah, it's it's and really in one sense when when we're in sin or backslidden, we're all in prison. Right. So, in a spiritual sense. Right. And um we have to humble ourselves, yeah, instill that love and understanding.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:18

Yeah, yeah.

Support From Friends And The Courtroom

SPEAKER_01 1:32:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:19

What did you have uh pastor friends at that time who had children that had been backslid as well? Did you have people that um shared you know that burden at least with you? I know that the stories wouldn't be the same because everyone's stories are different.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:38

Yeah, but I did have a lot of people contact me, ministers, friends. I do have a lot of friends. I do feel loved in America, I have to say that. Uh but the Clark knew people who went through deep things and told me their story. I heard others who who were arrested and told me their story, and others throughout America. There were pre-great evangelists in America from the East Coast that had gone to jail himself. I apparently had grew up in church and went to jail and then got out and came back and became a great minister, pastor evangelist today. And um, I had lots of things like that, and that really did help me. Yeah, and it really did, and and again, shocking to hear how pastors, four pastors were in prison with him from across America. It was unbelievable. Yeah, unbelievable. Some were talking about the same ministers they do, you know. It was unbelievable. And then you see how much and yet they're the enemy has a plan. That God has a plan. They want to be saved too. Yeah, yes, right, yeah, right. God's mercy is greater than ours, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:33:41

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:42

And I until you learn who your friends are, you see who they're merciful and those who are arrogant.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:46

You see all of that.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:47

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:48

And I saw a lot who are very merciful, yeah, and kind and comforting to me. Yeah. And then hold me, you know, still love me and encourage me. And and when when the final sentence came at the Freddie Court in Fresno came, the court was packed. It was packed. People from all over the state came, preachers, friends, all over the state.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:10

Wow, what a show of support.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:11

It was a great show of support. And that man, Michael could have done a hundred years. He could have been for life. He really could have. Yeah. And God changed it. And that prison, that even that that that judge said, all he says, all the whole it was a three-week weekend. He said, he said, he had all these letters and this crowd. He says, all weekend, I I my mind on you couldn't even relax. Try it, think about you. And then I see this. You are deeply loved. I can say you took you when you were going to uh you did a hundred 363-degree angle in life. Something happened to you with all these people like this. And he he he didn't give him the he went the one the lowest he can go. And then Trump, President Trump, when he was in office, lowered it some more. And it was not the Democrats that did it, it was a Republican.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:55

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:56

And so um, wow, you see the hand of God. I saw the hand of God. Michael sees the hand of God.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:03

And when and when he got out, the crowd that was there, the halfway house, the federal house there in Oakland, they were shocked. They thought we were gonna be mugged. What's going on? We've never seen a crowd bring someone there, there, but we all was coming to say goodbyes and hug him and all of that. It was a touching scene. I mean, it was a crowd. I wish I could have been there for that. People came from all over to be there at the at the airport and they went with them. We all went to eat and then took them to the deal. And it was it was unbelievable. Michael knew he was loved.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:35

Loved because they because he loved them. Yeah. You know, when you treat people right, it comes back to you. Yes. If you treat people awful, it will not come back. Yeah. And Michael was that way. Yeah. And I'm two of the, you know, we did love people. Diane loved people. Tim loved people. Michael loved, I love people. Yeah. And um and I saw the love of all sects of life. Yeah. I'm telling you, I it's it's beautiful. And some of those people, since that day, this is last that podcast with Michael, a pastor's son came back to God.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:07

Praise the Lord. You're kidding.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:11

I'm not kidding. No, and going to church. I'm telling you. And other things, people calling me and texting me. People I've seen here in town, I don't even know them. I didn't really know me. Stop me and say, I just heard your broadcast, your son. You know, so a lot of them shocked that he was my son. And and uh who wants to brag about who had a son in prison? You know, no one wants to brag about that.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:31

Yeah. Well, I think you're gonna be bragging about who he is because God has a powerful work. We're gonna get to that because that's one of my questions for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:43

Um what was the healing process like for you and Michael?

SPEAKER_01 1:36:49

We wept together. We we, you know, weeping. I know men are not supposed to weak, especially the Hispanic culture. Because I'm half Hispanic, yeah. Uh, but it doesn't matter what we are, really. I think it's good for the soul. It's good for the soul. That weeping, you know, and and we wept together. Uh we wept together and prayed and hugged each other, and uh it was deep. It was real deep. And uh I would hug him at present before I left, and we'd pray together. We weren't supposed to do that when we did it anyway. And he said guards looked, they loved Michael, the guards liked Michael, yeah. Everyone liked him, and and and and uh and and we would do that. But when that when we got out and hugged, and he said, Dad, I'm so sorry for everything I've done, put you through. You know, it cost money, title time, worry, stress, you know, all of that stuff. And but it it we bonded more, and you know, it it got closer and closer. I called him, we try every week and sometimes every day. It all depends. He's a busy man trying to live in where he's at in the Bay Area. He's doing good, doing Bible studies, reaching after people, bringing people to church. Uh it's it's it's beautiful what God's doing. And a lot of people he used to preach for come into ministry to him.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:06

What church is he attending in the Bay Area? Who's the pastor?

SPEAKER_01 1:38:10

It's Brother Jeremy Hogue. Oh, okay, Brother Hogue. You know him?

SPEAKER_06 1:38:13

Um The Hogue's from Stockton. That's it. Uh-huh. He's a son, right? Uh one of the sons, that's correct.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:19

His great aunt uh was from Odesto, who was a Hoag that went to be the shoemakes in Second Son of the eventually, um, were very good friends of ours. And mine was little. They used to take us to dinner, have dinner there uh there when they lived in Pleasanton. Yeah, so we it's unbelievable that all this would match like that.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:36

Okay, so Donna Hogue and Dot Hoague, they're twins. They still go to Stockton.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:42

Okay, some of them, there's some of them that do, some have moved, some relocated, and different things of life. And and so um, and I know that but Clark's uh brother-in-law is friends with the hogues, very friend, good friends.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:56

Well, I think I think Pastor Jeremy is related to Donna and Dot Hogue. Um 100%. They're ho they're related. But my friend from 30 years ago, who I worked with at Costco when I lived in Stockton and went to CLC. They're related. That's them. She is now like she didn't grow up an apostolic, nothing. She was my friend when I worked at Costco, and I was at CLC, and it's a long story, but in the last couple months, she has been going to CLC.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:30

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:30

And she got the Holy Ghost. Wow. And Donna Hogue and D Hogue has befriended her, and they've been teaching her Bible studies. They do, she just texted me these um paper mache wooden eggs that they made together. I mean what a small world, but what a blessed um connection. But I saw them at at Landmark, and my friend came to Landmark because she she's attending church there, and it was just so such a full circle moment because um God is good, but I didn't know that. Yes, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:08

Jeremy is a great man. He did grow up in Stockton. Okay, yes, he did. He his dad was a contractor or something. And his I've talked about it. I have a vague recollection. And he he loves Michael to a T. He he's been a great pastor, and I'm telling the most loving pastor I could ever see. Uh he's loved him and helped him immensely with him and his life. Yes. Um God has been with him all the way. We didn't know where to end up at. Right. And here he is.

What We Learn After The Storm

SPEAKER_06 1:40:37

Well, I selfishly want him to be in our area. You know, I just feel like God's doing the work, and you know, we just want to share it with people that have the same burden, you know, it would be wonderful. Um, in retrospect, what did you learn? And what did you learn? And what do you think you would have done different in retrospect now?

SPEAKER_01 1:41:03

Ooh, that's a very good question. And I asked myself over since you've been arrested, that same question. What could I have done different? I don't know that there is something, but I was in there with my kids. We you know, we were full-time at school, church, my wife was the church, the secretary, you know, uh assistant pastor, associate pastor. We were over everything. Everything. So we went to school together, church together, came home. Went to dinner together, we were together on everything. And even the girls, when they started dating, they came with us. Yeah, you know, a lot of we were together. I took the um but Esha was a busy church, so I had to work harder on going out of town to do things, but we did. We did, we did. And he had a tremendous grandfather and grandmother, grandfather backslider. Uh, he came back to God the day she died. She came in and to her mother to to my wife and said, honey, miha, I'm he was raised apostolic, Mexican apostolic, in Texas, way back in the original. And uh, and so he um what they call the Cantu's, those who in the Mexican apostolic wanted who know who they were. They were with the Cantu family in South Texas, and they and they came in, I think in the 1930s in a UPC church, English speaking only, in Indiana during the during the the Dust Bowl uh and all that stuff, and the harvest. And and that shows you even if you don't speak the language, you can experience the spirit. They received the Holy Ghost there. And so it all going back, he came to his daughter and said, Mia, I'm going, I've thrown stuff out of my property. Uh here, a little ranch, horses, he was a compressional roper, uh uh, and so forth. And my kids got into that, and we had to keep them away from that. We didn't want them to be promotional ropers and all that stuff. It's not that was not the thing for Pentecostals to me at that time. Right, right. And so, so but he said, Mia, I'm gonna live for God. I've just I'm giving and she says, please forgive me. She said, Honey, Dad, I forgive you. We make mistakes. And she always knew she thought she would have to die for him to come to God, and she was right.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:02

She was your wife was prophetic, it sounds like very prophetic.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:06

Yeah, she was very because she walked with God, she was firm in what she believed, and she saw it. She saw it. And even her own kids uh who were living for God, some of them uh shocked, it shocked them. I I got a different father, he's almost more spiritual than they are. Yeah, you know, he's he's just really got into it. And you just never know the timing of God. You never know. Yeah, a lot of people came in from this. Yeah, believe it or not, their father came back. I believe it. Him going seeing his grandson in jail, and just shock of everything, embarrassment, humbled him. Yeah, and saw in Diane's sickness, it all humbled him and brought him back to God. Yeah, and brought other bringing other people back to God. What he affected there in Denver, Colorado, all those minister people there that went back living for God, he affected them. Yeah. Where you know, where does this all end? You know what we can't judge all the circumstances. His ways are far above. When we see uh my thing of wisdom now, the greater the picture, the more wisdom we have.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:09

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:09

If we could see what God sees, right, we would think things totally different. Right, right. And I've learned now, I want to look at the big picture. Yeah. Big picture, because he's in charge. Yeah, he's in charge. Yeah, he's in charge.

SPEAKER_06 1:44:21

Yeah, that's so exciting. Oh so now, Brother Torres, um, do you have many you you alluded to this earlier, but um many pastor friends, friends in ministry across our movement that you know of that have children that are still backslidden?

SPEAKER_01 1:44:41

Yes, yes, I do. I know many of and knowing many some. And and then I've had others tell me, because we're ministers, we talk. Right, you know, and they're trying to comfort me. Right. And yes, a lot of them, it's bad. You know what he did was bad. It could have been worse. Yes, he could have been shot down, killed. Oh, yes, in Stockton Bible, could have been killed in prison. Prison prison? Absolutely. There are dark times there. Sometimes you gotta stand up a line and you don't know what's gonna happen. Right. You just don't know. Uh, and and I know there's there's a guy that uh a famous preacher that came out of Stockton College that was a great preacher, and then going after the minister, backslid, robbed a bank, and he tried to shoot down with the cops and was gunned down. It was in the paper many years ago when I was in Modesto. But the keys talked about that. Heartbreaking. It happens to the best, to the best. Yeah, but yes, I've known of many, and but but it could have been worse. There's other situations worse than that. Right. I think sexual orientation is a very bad deal. And I'm not here talking, I treat everybody right, right? Everybody, what they are in front of me, I treat them with respect. Right. I still want to win their soul. I've learned to do that. I've learned to do that, to judge people so quickly. Sin is sin. We know that, they know that, but we gotta love the people regardless.

SPEAKER_06 1:46:05

But Brother Torres, we we gotta talk about it too, because these are souls and the enemy wants them. But we gotta fight, you know, we gotta fight for them. And, you know, God doesn't judge sin, one sin over the other, but we do, and the person who's in it judges it, you know, like we think one sin is so much worse than the others. That's our humanity that judges that. But um I I feel like, you know, just talking with other people who have burdens for prodigals, and then having uh Ben Bland here who came out of the LGBTQ lifestyle. And then we have some people at our church who have come out of the LGBTQ lifestyle. They're coming out, they're coming out.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:52

Yes, I've seen it. Yeah, I've seen it since I have I've been here. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Why There Are So Many Backsliders

SPEAKER_06 1:46:57

God is working in all of these situations. So if we think about the movement nationwide, uh global is too big for me, but just nationwide here in America. Do you venture a guess of what kind of percentage of backsliders we have?

SPEAKER_01 1:47:16

Ooh. Ooh, percentage versus to those who are in church?

SPEAKER_06 1:47:21

Yeah, the the ones yeah. What what kind of backsliders do you think? What what kind of percentage do you think is actually exists out there?

SPEAKER_01 1:47:29

I'm gonna tell you, okay. Here's how I feel. Let's go to the city of Iselia here. Okay, we know we have that we have several apostolic churches, they've been tribes. That's fine. We're tribal. Yeah. I don't care what this is. Right, right. There's no tribal. That's been improving. Yeah. And even the corporate world is that way. Right, right. Uh so I believe there's thousands of people in Biselia. There's still backsliders. Yeah. That's how I feel. I definitely feel like I feel any average city in America, you name whatever apostolic people there is. Let's say there's a city of 500 apostolics in. I would say multiply that at least by five to ten times.

unknown 1:48:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:06

You've got that many more backsliders. And backsliders.

SPEAKER_06 1:48:09

That's exactly so more backsliders than those sitting in the pew.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:12

Absolutely. There's no doubt about that. If all the backsliders came in the vice study right now, they would they our searches would not be able to contain them.

SPEAKER_06 1:48:23

So that begs a very important question, Brother Torres. And I know it's the enemy, but what can we do as a body if if five to ten times the number of people in church are maxliden, how are we losing them? What what how are we losing them and how do we um how do we endear them back?

SPEAKER_01 1:48:51

That's a very good question. I went to that backsliders conference. I never heard of one before. My own wife said I've never heard of a backslider's conference. I called it a backslider conference.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:00

I think it was the first that I went to and I was shocked.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:05

At first I didn't know there'd be that many people. I I was really, I was, I didn't know what to expect. I didn't expect a lot. I went because maybe this is a see it. Right. I was shocked by the crowd. I was shocked by the backslide backsliders. People who had been at our church were there trying to pray through. People saw me on the yes, yes, yes. Oh, that blesses me. They were trying people from everywhere. People, I saw parents from all kinds of churches there with their kids, there to back them up because they wanted them back in church.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:35

Praise God.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:35

You know, I want my kids to be saved. Right. They may go to another tribal church. Right. And you know what, you all know what I'm talking about. I still hold the standards that I was taught. But, you know, God's ways are far above my ways. Yeah. I and I want them going to church, Jesus' name church, and doing the best they can in separation from God and fervency. We've got to fall in love with God. Right. And what so you asked me the question what could we do? Backsliders have happened all since the since the Acts 238. Absolutely. They're at Pentecost. Right. So some you got the different grounds. You know, so you got these grounds that fall, and they fall. And some will come back. Seeds that fall. Yeah. Some the prodigal son, but the keys was real big on the on the lady in the how in the house. Remember that? Yeah. She lost the coin. Yes. Some are in that backsliding or pews. Many backsliding, yes. And then and then some we have to so we had to go look for the coin. Right. And then you got some that the that are prodigal sons. They go have to leave the church, like my son, and go into deep deal and suffer tremendously for them to come back. And then you got the man, the the lost sheep. You got the shepherd that goes hunting for that lost sheep. Just wanders. You go wandering, you have to go in back into the cliffs to find them. And that's we have to go all of them and search their heart which way we go through. This is a beautiful question. Because if it yeah, we could have revival just in our backsliders. Oh, I think we're going to fill up. Yeah. I agree. I believe that's all I'm out everywhere, all over the nation. Yeah. All over the nation. I want my kids to live for God in Jesus' name. They know how I live, they know how I taught them. Yeah. And some of them are still holding to what I taught them.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:26

And so um uh so with that, that's a good question. Yeah. So there's the there's three angles we have to go at. And we and a church in a way has to pray. I feel if I was pastor again, I would take think this and get our church body. Okay, let's pray for every black star we can think of, and let's pray how to handle that. Yeah, it's almost like an operation.

SPEAKER_06 1:51:48

Right, because it it is it is subjective to each person. That's correct. It's subjective, it's it's all different.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:54

They need something. Maybe they maybe they thought the pastor was too harsh when they're young.

SPEAKER_06 1:51:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:58

Maybe they thought they were they got offended. Right. Maybe they're judged. You know what? We pastors, we do make mistakes. Right. We can come on a little too tough sometimes. Because because we're under stressed out, and we want the church, people saying, Well, we want to stay pure and clean. You know what? There is, I don't think there's such things as a pure church. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:52:17

Well, not if the state, not if Satan has a seat.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:19

Not in the physical, right? In the spiritual, that can be. Yes. We get into prayer faster, we can purify ourselves. Uh, closest thing would be after communion. Hopefully, if you did everything right, yeah. But watching communion. But anyway, getting back is an up. I think we need to do an operation. Our church, each our church, and go after that. Yeah. With a burden and prayer and with wisdom. He that wineth sows is wise.

SPEAKER_04 1:52:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:42

This whole thing with Michael, everybody involved, everybody involved loved Michael regardless. No one said, say, Michael, you're a preacher, this should not happen. Right. You know, they they they felt for me. I felt their love. They went, uh, paid their own airfare to go see him. All different places they came to see him. Everywhere they went to see him and went. And I'm telling you, there you see the real friends. And they were there for him. So, brother, you know, a backslider has to feel our love. Yeah. They got to feel our love. Love, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:53:16

And they got to uh and so it that that gets so confusing. But yes, I I I am seeing a huge turnaround. I think there is a different Yes, and it's probably always been there, but we as the backslider couldn't see beyond our own pain, our own offense, our own feelings of judgment and insecurity and inadequacy. And and that's like with me, so much of my stuff had nothing to do with others. It had to do with the wounds that I carried. Those wounds are deep. They're deep. I've dealt with people with deep wounds.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:56

Yeah. And God heals them, but it's a process. That's right. That's right. I know of churches where we're good churches, and many hundreds left over time.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:09

Oh, in this area. Yeah. Okay. And and so some are coming back gradually. Yeah. And when I see them, I talk to them in love. And and they need a lot of love and handled very carefully. Yeah. You know, um, there's like a mother's love.

SPEAKER_06 1:54:26

Yeah, because the tendency is to retreat, you know, because we we retreat in order to s to feel safe. And our exterior is very often um uh defense mechanisms. And so as God heals the inside, I think the outside begins to change because you know what I'm saying? But I th it's just a beautiful marriage when God is allowed to be in control, He does the work on the person. You know, but I I think I I just have such a burden for backsliders that was like me because I know they're out there that love the Lord, and I want to see them restored to that place in the Lord, and nothing else matters. All that all the rest doesn't really matter, but it is staggering to know. I mean, just just when we look at music, um, famous musicians or Hollywood, or there is story after story after story of those people who went to an apostolic church and felt the presence of God or was raised.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:40

There are lots of them. I can lots of them. I know lots of them.

SPEAKER_06 1:55:43

Yeah, and they're gonna come home.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:45

That's right. I I believe they're gonna come home. That's right. I they I believe that. I believe that. And and we have to be ready for them. Right. You know, if they're prodigal sons, we have to be ready and love.

How Churches Can Welcome Prodigals

SPEAKER_06 1:55:56

And what does that mean for the church to be ready though, Brother Torres?

SPEAKER_01 1:55:59

Like they gotta be humble and love them. Let the pastor take care of the business. Yeah, don't love them. We we are we are I do feel I see a day and age now that mu pastors I know of, those people are feeling their love. I think our mindset is changed change all that, which should be. Yeah, and um, we get that that love, they've gotta feel it. Yeah, just say it. They've gotta feel it. You're interested in them, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:56:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:29

I'm not a I'm not a great preacher. I know that. I'm not even I don't even know I don't think I preach good. But but I I know this I do love people. And I'll go to their doors and I don't give up on people. I'll go, oh, and go and go. Today, after I'm done with you, I'm going to go see a church, a person that's struggling. Yeah, and I'd heard I was preaching out of town last night, and and I heard the struggling pastor called me, and I'll go see him. And but I go after I'll I love people, I'll go and go.

SPEAKER_05 1:57:01

We've lost that visit.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:03

When they when they come back, people say, one time brother Torres does, he doesn't give up. I don't give up. I'll keep at it. I I use the wisdom, give a little time, back and back and back. We need that, brother Taurus.

SPEAKER_06 1:57:14

We we just everybody needs to feel that significance and that that love. We just we're humans, we're wired for it.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:21

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:57:22

And back in the day, we used to go on visitations, we used to just stop by people's houses and visit. We don't do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:30

I go out. I go, I love doing that. We need to get back to that. And as a as a uh semi-retired minister, you're a minister's never retired. No, okay, no, but that's what I love going to the door and going seeing and talking to people. That's to be honest with you, that's why most thing I want to be is a Christian first and a sew winner. Yeah. I got to be. If I do that, I'm happy. Yeah. Happy. Yeah. Till I die, till I die. Yeah. You know, and backsliders, they count. Yeah. They count. And they're coming. They're coming. I do feel the crisis we are in America, we're in the end times. Yes. Whether America is Babylon or not, the whore, is that you know, that's up to you. You can do it in your own way. But we are in the dark, dark days. Right. And people even backsliders, the world is seeing it. Even trainers are seeing it. Yes. And we our doors need to be ready for them because a lot of them are going to come back. Right. I believe it. And it may take you too. If Trump gets out of office, I'm going to be honest with you. He gets out of office. I think there's an anti-Semitic spirit going, and there's an anti-church spirit and anti-Christian apostolic spirit. Yes, there is. It's strong. It's strong.

SPEAKER_06 1:58:36

You know, I think they already do to some degree that it's already happening.

SPEAKER_01 1:58:41

Yeah. That's going to get worse. Right. It's getting worse. And so that could be the essence. And they're going to know. And we're going to have to, our minds are going to be full of love. I'm not, yeah, full of love, full of compassion.

SPEAKER_06 1:58:52

Yeah, because I do believe that God is stirring them. They they are aware of the end times and what's happening in the world if they had ever been in church. Right. They've got to be able to see the writing on the wall. Yes, yes. And I think they're coming. I heard a story. I was listening to uh the fruitful vine, and Pastor Urshan was interviewing uh Braden Anderson, who is doing the Jesus tent revival. And uh, and he was not raised in apostolic um ministry or anything. I think he was raised Catholic, he said, but he said that he began to feel such a profound sense of knowing he was lost. And he began to search for God. And he went, he said he went to one friend at school and went to his church. And then the next week, if we if the Lord wasn't there, he he asked another friend at school and went to his church until one day, the very last person, because he didn't want to go to an apostolic church, he went to an apostolic church and there he found the Lord. But what that story did for me was that's how God is drawing people. God just revealed to him his condition, and he began to seek out a church that he could find the presence of the Lord in. And it was an apostolic church. And since hearing that two days ago, I've really been praying, Lord, you got to do that for these people. You have got to help them realize their sense of being lost so that they will turn to you and seek you. You know, and it it blessed me God's love for him, that he would reveal that to him. Yes, you know, and that's the goodness of God that were that is working. Our prayers are effectual, they are working, they are moving. And if we could, as a people, pick up the burden for the backsliders.

SPEAKER_01 2:00:55

Yeah, we have the truth. Right. And if we really believe this is a heaven-hell issue, like then w we need a more greater burden, a greater effort.

SPEAKER_06 2:01:04

And we to know that they're gonna go to hell.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:06

Yeah, they're going to hell. Right. That's right. That's why I'm adamant about this. Right. And and I'm trying to find ways to go out and reach people, backsliders and everybody, everybody. And of course, there's a certain percentage don't want God at all. We're in, we're seeing into that. Right. But I still, I still believe that we live in the last days and the the former the latter shall be greater than the former. I do believe it is a last short time revival we're gonna have. I I don't think I think it's gonna be short. I think it's gonna shock us. I don't know if we're gonna be ready. Yeah, but it's gonna happen. Yeah, and we gotta just when they come, let them come and pray them through.

SPEAKER_06 2:01:43

I think we're learning as we go.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:44

Yeah, yes, we are.

SPEAKER_06 2:01:45

We never did a backslider conference before, but we figured it out.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:49

They made me a believer.

What God May Do Next

SPEAKER_06 2:01:51

I was shocked. You know, because backsliders, we know the title. We we we know who we are, you know. And so it can feel like, oh, I'm among people that I can relate to. You know, one last well, two last three last questions. What do you think God has in store for Michael?

SPEAKER_01 2:02:11

What do I think? That's a very good question. You know, I used to think of him years ago. You know, he was preaching all over America and Canada at one time. And now I'm not I'm not, you know, I'm not even thinking that way anymore. What I'm thinking is I want Michael to be used of God.

SPEAKER_04 2:02:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:02:29

That wherever he's at, I want him to be used. Yeah, I know he's getting places to preach. Uh, it's been out over three years since he's been out. Uh, and thank God for that. Um, and people give, you know, they give him his time, which is great, and he's gradually going, and he's not worried about it. I mean, thank God for that. Right. And so it's a good question. Uh I don't know. But he was called from birth. Birth to birth. So it's gonna speak for itself.

SPEAKER_06 2:02:56

Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_01 2:02:57

You know, um I I when I saw the anointing uh week ago to on him, I was blown. I didn't that was the oh my call. I didn't know if I'd ever see that again. Yeah, oh it was so powerful, brother Torres. He was exactly what he was, yeah like that. I was shocked. Yeah, I was surprised as everybody else was. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:03:17

How did you feel sitting there hearing him?

SPEAKER_01 2:03:21

I well, I was overwhelmed. Yeah, I was thankful. God, thank you for the anointing him again. You don't know if you'll get that anointing back. Sometimes it doesn't come back, you know. And but God does give the anointing. Did David lose the anointing as king when he after he fell into sin? It's hard to understand. There's a lot of things we do know as absolute ministers, there's a lot of things we really, really don't know. We may think we know right until you experience it. Until you experience it. Now I'm on this side of the boat. I I want him saved, I want him used of God. God is gonna get the victory. Yes, if he's in a place where he's gonna be used more, let it be. If he's gonna be an evangelist, he's got people wanting him different parts of the nation uh already. And of course, he's working on this parole right now. We're working on that uh as we speak, and he may once he gets that, he'll be able to go more. But Jeremy is doing it right, little by little, which is perfect. I don't question him, I never talk against his pastor, never, because I taught him to listen to your pastor. Yeah, and and so and Jeremy is a fair man, yeah, and a godly man. Yeah, and so um, so what do I think will happen? Uh what I see really is a possibility of evangelizing. Yeah, how what way, uh, from the church back and forth, that's fine. Whether it's minor, large, it doesn't matter. Probably possibly he could be that way because he does I don't think he's gonna go.

SPEAKER_06 2:04:44

I I think he's gonna be way more than what he ever was to start because God I love your face.

SPEAKER_01 2:04:50

God doesn't make mistakes. Because I'm a minister, I'm trying to be very careful of my feelings. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 2:04:57

Well, you're juggling both worlds, the the father in you and the minister in you, and and yet um man, that zeal, yeah, Michael has zeal.

SPEAKER_01 2:05:09

Yes, he does.

SPEAKER_06 2:05:10

I don't always see zeal.

SPEAKER_01 2:05:12

Michael has zeal. The church, be honest, it when he came back down, it was the most powerful part of the service. Yeah, don't you think? Yeah, that time he was the most powerful part of that service.

SPEAKER_06 2:05:22

I wanted him to talk more.

SPEAKER_01 2:05:24

Oh, I did too. I did too. And um, and so wow. If God, if you if you'll uh keep on his, I've told him before, keep on keep your on your face, keep your face on the carpet to pray. You've got to stay humble, you've got to stay humble. Yeah, and he's working, he's doing better. He's doing, I've never seen him more humble. Never. Yeah, and uh really it's that dependency on God. I mean God.

SPEAKER_06 2:05:49

He he he had to have learned that through all of this.

SPEAKER_01 2:05:52

Did you hear good things about him?

SPEAKER_06 2:05:54

Oh, yes, we we've had so many wonderful m feedback, but yeah, we all love Michael. I was watching my pastor's face, you know, because Jeremy heard him speak at CLC many years ago. And so, you know, I felt like Pastor Cain was ready to come out of his chair, you know. We I think we stood a few times, but um, yeah, I don't I don't believe anything is in vain, and whatever whatever Michael went through to get him to where God has him, God is going to use it in a powerful way because that I the Bible says the gifts and callings are without repentance, and and now that he's in alignment and now I believe he knows himself better than what he ever did before.

SPEAKER_01 2:06:58

I want to make a statement here, and I'm open to can of worms as an apostolic pastor. But now that I'm semi-retired, it doesn't matter what you think of me. I'm gonna live for God and be the same for the Torahs, the same standards I was taught. That's how I am trying to live. And I and the church that I pastored for 14 years. And um I tend to think that this those witnesses, the two witnesses in the revelation, yeah, I don't think it's the prophets coming back. We don't need them anymore. Right, they've already done their thing.

SPEAKER_04 2:07:30

Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:07:30

I think it's the church. Yeah, I think young men and men and women throughout the Abbostock world are going to be, there's something coming on them that is going to fight whatever it is. If we're in that time. Now say I don't know. No one knows everything. I don't know. I don't know. No, you don't, you think you know, you don't know. We if it comes, it happens, we don't, we just don't know. But if this is the case, I believe people like Michael and other women, men and women are going, because it talks about men and women, your young maidens and your old men and and your young men. And it talks about that there in there in I and Joel and also in the book of Acts. Yeah. So, so, so, and then we go into Revelation, I think it's the church. I think people, the same spirit Michael had the other night, yeah, with full passion and and and belief and faith that God could lose people who knows our God, that people that see know them for their past, they see what God could do for them. If God could forgive them and bring them out of that, God can do that for me. Right, right. And that and that that great a great revival would be part of this great revival, the short revival that will come. Very possibly. I'm not a prophet, I'm not can't preach as a doctrine, as just my feelings. You're welcome to call me, talk to me anytime. I've studied this for a long time.

SPEAKER_06 2:08:51

Yeah, and and Brother Torres, I I don't even know how much it matters it in that sense, you know, because at the end of the day, like you said, I'm gonna be a Christian and a soul winner and I'm gonna make it to heaven. Yes, you know, everything else God's in control of we can theorize and we should, I think, you know, but I'm with you because people like Michael, when you get it and you know it, like there there's nothing that can take it away. Michael knew it before he ever robbed a bank, right? But he was he was broken, he was trying to fulfill the role as a parent and as a husband, and he he didn't know how to answer the emotional needs that he had in his heart. But now that he's gone through what he's gone through, like you know, even when he testified, you could tell I think he alluded to some challenges he's had, but he quickly turned to write about right around and made it about God. But I know God is gonna take me through this, and I know God's gonna deliver me in this, and like there's zero question about who God is to him.

SPEAKER_01 2:10:06

That's right. And you know, Kathy, in the San Juan Valley, especially this area, Fresno Madera, Biggestville, if you if you ask if you ask people in our church, uh uh men and women, how many of you have ever been arrested? Probably 80 percent.

SPEAKER_06 2:10:21

Me.

SPEAKER_01 2:10:21

Okay, I didn't even know that. I would have never judged that. I didn't want you to do that.

SPEAKER_06 2:10:24

But but I listen, I don't mind because I don't mind because God has brought me. I would have never known that's true.

SPEAKER_01 2:10:32

That's what God does. Yes, but my church, this women have been arrested, bonding Clydes. I call them the bonding. We have a bunch of bonding Clydes in this church. We have a history, so and so they're arrested 75, 80 percent. And how many parents of your kids have been arrested? Almost a hundred percent, maybe. And so we're reaching a different type of people, right? And Mike, there Michael is relating to these people, yes, and they want reality, they're tired of Phariseanism. Yes, yes, what uh uh that really are real and really know what real love and compassion and deliverance really is, and they and that's even if it's ugly, even if it's yes, even if it's messy. So it is a possible big, strong possibility that this is part of God's plan. Yes, and if that was, I would be more proud that he's being used. The greater, yeah, yeah, yeah. The Bible talks about it's gonna be greater the former. I mean, the greater the bladders get the ladder's gonna be greater than the former. I get I'm getting nervous on this thing. You're doing good, brother. All over the place. They're all over here.

SPEAKER_06 2:11:32

You're you're doing great, you're passionate, you're passionate, and I would love to hear you preach sometime because I bet you are very similar to your child, you know, because it's conviction and it's the truth of God's word. And to me, that's that's what's powerful, that's what brings the anointing. That the God's word is gonna go forth and not return void. And when you have someone that believes it and that loves it and can speak it from A place of conviction and experience. Like you feel that you can't argue with that. It penetrates.

A Direct Message To Prodigals

SPEAKER_01 2:12:07

Yes. I'm touched by this. I'm really touched by this. My whole goal here today is to give God the glory, what God's done for Michael. And as a as a father and had a husband of a wife who died, it was her son going to prison. Um, we didn't lose hope. We didn't lose love. It's humbled us. And my goal here today is to encourage all of you, ministers, parents, regardless, living for God, trying to live for God. Don't give up on your kids. The best thing you can do is stay on your knees. Read that Bible. Let the people, let your kids hear you pray, let them see you pray. Uh, read the Bible, see you pray, and faithful to God and live the life. Don't live a life the preacher is preaching and doing something different. They see that. Yeah, the deal of phoniness, phoniness is not it is no longer being accepted.

SPEAKER_06 2:13:02

No.

SPEAKER_01 2:13:03

It's no longer being accepted.

SPEAKER_06 2:13:04

Yeah. And what would you say to the backslider, brother Torres?

SPEAKER_01 2:13:08

Backslider, I'm telling you, things are changing as far as love.

SPEAKER_04 2:13:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:13:13

Love. Pastors are, I feel, or I'm seeing from my experience, are more loving and more forgiving than I've ever seen before. I'm seeing it. I really am. And and uh don't go back. Go back. You'll feel it. Give it a shot. Give it a shot. If you can feel God and you can feel love from the church and the pastor, the ministry, you're on the right track. You're on the right track. And stay, keep going. You know, the more you, I know the first time coming back, they say is the hardest. And the more you come, the more easier it will get. It will get. Even if you don't go to the altars at first. And you know, so I've had people backslider say, I don't want them putting their arms on me. Well, I'll try to tell of that. Yeah. Don't let nothing offend you. Love God greater than the offense. Because we all get offended. But but but the Bible says offenses will come. And those who overcome the offenses are the ones that make it. You can't stop it. You have family people that offend you, but you still love them. When you come to God, love cut go because I want to get back to God. I want to feel God again. I want the Holy Ghost again. I want to be faithful to a body again. I want to go to heaven. And I'm going to live for God. And nobody is going to preach something to me that's going to make me backslide.

SPEAKER_05 2:14:35

Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:14:35

Yeah. You've got to just be faithful. Yeah. You got to be faithful. Make up your mind. Our heart and our mind is what how is going to determine our eternity. Yes. Amen. Your soul will go wherever your heart and mind decides where it wants to go. Right. Go back. Remember orthart fallen and um repent and go back. Go back and get into our first love. Our first love. Where remember when you first had the Holy Ghost backsliders? You love God no matter what. You love God. Let's go back. Let's go back and love Him like we loved Him in the beginning. We loved everybody. No one could offend us. We were faithful. We just forgave everybody and love God.

SPEAKER_05 2:15:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:15:20

If we if you know what? If we our churches did that, it would turn our cities upside down.

SPEAKER_06 2:15:26

I believe it. I believe it, Brother Taurus. Well, I I love you, and I'm so grateful that you came.

SPEAKER_01 2:15:35

Uh I appreciate this and and I encourage you to let the progress continue in your life. I yeah, I can see you're really trying, and that's beautiful. And I commend you for that.

SPEAKER_06 2:15:45

Yeah, God's doing it one step at a time.

SPEAKER_01 2:15:48

One step at a time. That's what I tell people. Some people take steps a little bit quicker, some takes a little longer. Yeah. Amen. Let patience have its perfect work.

Closing And Ways To Connect

SPEAKER_06 2:15:57

Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, God bless you. And thank you too. Um, Michael, if you're watching, we love you here in Biselia. So come visit us more often and um preach, do whatever. But um Yeah, thank you everybody for watching. And if you're a backslider um and you have returned home, please, please reach out to us. We would love to, we would love to have you on the show and hear your story. Thank you and God bless.

SPEAKER_00 2:16:23

We are so glad you joined us. If you have a story of redemption or have worn the label of a backslider, we would love to hear from you. If you'd like to support our ministry, your donation will be tax deductible. Visit our website at the redeemed backslider.org. We hope you will tune in for our next episode.