Having quite a bit of experience in dyno tuning Harley-Davidson motorcycles, We talk about what it is and why you may need it. We do our best to not dive to deep, but as always we can get a little carried away.
Having quite a bit of experience in dyno tuning Harley-Davidson motorcycles, We talk about what it is and why you may need it. We do our best to not dive to deep, but as always we can get a little carried away.
Roy Merritt 0:15
Once again, it's time to open your ears and expand your mind. Or maybe it's double your mind. Either way, I think these boys have some of the sense. So sit back, grab a brew, we're gonna have some to give you our point of view, here on Talkin Braap
I don't know man I think that's about enough intro yeah
they can afford in the Asia we're done. Yeah man you know where welcome out there you know so welcome back to Talkin Braap season two episode 11 damn hitting it hard yeah man we have a lot of hours yes good and thousands of downloads
So tonight we're gonna do a topic that we have been dying to do since I think day one
which is what is dyno tuning and then that's what I'm gonna call it but obviously
Shane Langdon 1:40
other than a pain in the ass sometimes.
Roy Merritt 1:44
I think especially you know Mike will be joining us here soon. You know you and I Shane in even Aaron a little bit i think you know we tend to want to like get really technical with you know what
dyno tune is Yeah, when there's no possible way that you can do especially over a podcast. You could actually teach somebody what dyno tuning. Yeah. So, you know, we're gonna keep that topic fairly broad. I do want to go and do a few things.
But I did some some Google searches. Because I think anybody in the world pretty much nowadays. If you want to know what something is you you ask Google Google, you know, you just Google it like Hey, what is this? And
so I did, what is dyno tuning? And
you know, their simplification is kind of what my simplification to customers most of the time is. And that is in the simplest form you are calibrating the ECM. Yeah, you know, in the in the fewest number of your fewest number of words of thought, that's where you go to cry and
Mike VO 2:57
cry
Roy Merritt 2:59
and kill
yourself and your monoxides yes and loose ways yourself. Yes. Wait. Also, you know, if you've done any performance work or anything like that to your bite, then you've at least heard of dyno tuning. If you didn't if you did a bunch of work to it, and nobody said anything about dyno tuning, I would raise an eyebrow out of that, especially nowadays with fuel injection. Yeah, even carbureted bikes can be dyno tuned. Yep.
On my case, it would be called jetting, right. So you will Yeah, be jetting but you still you know, when you put it on a dyno and that's really the first thing you know, we address is what is what is a dyno, what we call a dyno, and it's a dynamometer. And
let's see, it is a do this is Wikipedia. And it says a dyno for short is a device for simultaneously measuring the torque and rotational speed or RPM of an engine, motor or other rotating process.
mover, so that it's instantaneous power may be calculated, and usually displayed by the dynamometer itself and kilowatt or brake horsepower. So if you're Australian is kilowatt, yeah, you know, it's is basically a machine that allows the tuner
to measure what the bike is doing now, most dynamometers that bikes get tuned on our, you know, rear wheel dynamometer they have engine dynamometers they have all kinds of dynamometers out there. But what 90% of what you're finding even in cars and stuff is going to be a wheel dynamometer that's what it's actually what is actually pulling down to the ground. I think they call it a chassis dyno. I want to say that Harley uses an engine for all their specs. So most most manufacturers do. Yeah. So you're not taking into consideration in that case, then any of the parasitic loss you've got going on. I did through transmission dry any of the Dr. Ariel primary exam.
When the wheel these all calculated in Yeah, the industry kind of standard and not even just our industry has always been about 15% I've always heard you lose about 15% in in drive train. Yeah. But before I mean a lightweight wheel. Yeah, we saw it. Yeah. Carbon Fiber Wi Fi 6% something like seven horsepower and torque. Yeah. And so and you're gonna see a blank motor out of a big motor bill bike you those little adjustments are going to show a lot more because you're getting the last little couple. So you know, what is a dyno? It's basically a machine that allows us to put the bike on it and put a load on the rear tire. Most importantly,
control that load and watch everything that's going on with the bike while we're doing that mainly there feel free Yeah. You have an eg a system that's going to measure the air fuel and you're going to compare that
With what the computer thinks the air fuel is and the ultimate goal is to calibrate DCM so that when it says that it wants 14 you know to one air fuel, it's putting out 14 to one
dyno tuning does not make horsepower, it can lose or it doesn't make power it can lose power if you do it well. Good tuner makes horsepower. Well, but but the motor makes the horsepower great. You're just tunes it properly. And that's the difference there. That's why that's why I say you know, if you make a super lean, you could actually pick up a little bit on the numbers, but it's gonna run like crap. It's gonna burn itself up crap. And another common you know, misconception there is I had a lot of people back in Florida say can you tune my bike to run cool?
No, yeah. No. The fuel does not cool the motor. This is not a nitromethane RC car. Yeah, you know that they actually you know that the nitromethane actually cools the motor. So
You know, you can't run them too lean or you'll burn them up.
Ultimately, what I always tell people is I can either tune it right or I can tune it wrong. Oh, there, there's really no in between. So if you tune it, right, that motor is going to make X amount of power or that bike. If you don't tune it, right, you're not gonna see those numbers, right? You know, and that's what a lot of people end up with lots of you tune it correctly, and you tune it to the correct airfield values. You know, as you get higher the RPM, you want more fuel,
Shane Langdon 7:30
it'll actually run kind of more optimal as far as the temperature. Yeah. Now, you know, if it's lean, it gets hot. If you put too much fuel, the exhaust actually will get hot because unburned fuel goes in the exhaust and burns off and the exhaust and the temperature gets hot, and you'll feel the leg. So the best for cooling and running is running optimal at their fuel that it wants at that time. Correct. So going back to load really quick, I get this question all the time. You guys that go well, I've got my tuner, and I've got I'm gonna go
Roy Merritt 8:00
And by the wideband and I'm going to tune it myself and my response to that is always we'll get good luck finding a spot where you can get a grade where you can maintain load and observe that and tune it. You can do a lot of dyno. That's that's the magic of a dyno load. So you know, that's a subject we can touch on here. wideband narrowband. So speed, speed of the sensor. Yeah, yeah, that is that is in my experience and training. And so when I was in Florida, I worked right up the street from a guy who basically no bullshit helped write the book for MMI on how to, you know, help design their dyno program with them. You know what I mean? He worked there for a long time. So
he had a shop that's all he did was tune Harley's. And he made a lot of money doing it. So he was obviously pretty good at what he did.
And I, my buddy that worked next to me, worked with him every weekend like I never I never really went over there and worked with him or anything because he learned a lot from him. I picked a lot up
from him and
he, the way I was always explained it is a narrow band goes like 13 to 15 or something I think it is airfuel that is trying to go the wide bands go like six to like 18 I think something like that. So it doesn't matter what processor you're using no matter what you're doing, nothing can count 618 faster than it can count 13 to fit Yeah. So there is we're talking very small milliseconds. My daughter's transitioning through and Mike Mike Tom Woods listening transition through those areas so quick. You can't respond fast enough. Yeah, I bought the the power vision with the wideband. We tuned on it I wrote it and over time I slowly felt it kind of drift away. Yeah, changing that it was
Shane Langdon 9:53
a very it was mellow writer. And you know you're always putts in real well, you're doing 60
Five or 70 on the freeway, you're always doing the limit, you're going really slow. The wide bands are probably okay. But that's not the person that's going to be doing, you know, stage two stage threes, you know, right. If you want a torque cam like a Harley, can we do the Harley wide bands and all that I mean them might be good for you, but the people who want good acceleration and want to hit the throttle a lot, it just doesn't keep up. And so it'll, it'll dip Will you know, it'll dip way down and then we'll it'll shoot a bunch of fuel fuel alene out and then we'll try to shoot a bunch of fuel at it and then a bogs down and so your, your response is very like kind of jerky like, now I've had enough time watching you in the dyno and what you do when you make your corrections, and you're chasing the little rise here that affects the next 300 RPM worth. That's what it's doing all the time you
lean at 2500. But really, it's 20 to 50 no setting in at that speed is actually feeding that curve.
Aaron Staudinger 10:58
A little bit more like the changes you're
Making don't affect what's happening in the moment slightly before and slowly. Yeah. So early on in the, in the show because
Roy Merritt 11:12
we're getting deep again, I know and this is what I was talking about about getting a little too cynical. So yeah, we need to kind of back it up a little bit. Okay. And, you know, people everybody knows cars
Unknown Speaker 11:27
and in a car
Roy Merritt 11:29
you can put an air intake and like exhaust and a couple of things on it, and it'll still run good. Yeah, it'll so and the reason why that fuel injector that it is, and the fuel injection systems in a car use what would they call a mass airflow sensor.
So the engine with the intake runner and everything that it has is actually a can calculate how much air is flowing by that sensor.
It can make adjustments to air and fuel because it sees more air coming in. Right? It's measuring it, it's actually measuring it on a on a Harley Davidson. That's not the case to speed density there are there are there are two types of systems that are uses. And there's the alpha n and the speed density. And the difference between the two is basically an alpha end system uses throttle position and RPM, and a speed density system uses map or the manifold absolute pressure. And Harley is the soldier and Matt Yeah, yeah, they use a T MAP sensor, but that temperature sensor is a secondary center. And we'll talk a little bit about that. But the MAP sensor, what it does is it It measures barometric pressure for I mean, for lack of a better way to put it, you know when when it is wide open and off and nothing's there. It will read
Aaron Staudinger 13:00
metric pressure. And if you have powervision, you can see the kPa. Yeah. So
Roy Merritt 13:07
it knows that at this, you know, at 11 kilopascals, or what we'll see 11 would be what is it inches of mercury,
like 11 inches of mercury at idle. I'm going to flow through the through the stock intake that I've been set up for, I am going to flow about, we're just going to throw something out there 350 cubic feet per minute. So now it takes that information and starts making changes due to that. Now, if you go in and put a new air filter that flows faster on that, the computer has no idea it's all screwed up getting more air than it thought it is doing calculations only off of one factor and that factor does not change with what you do around it. You can do an intake runner, you can do all kinds of stuff and
That 11 nine to 11 inches of mercury holds true on all bikes at idle. You know, you dump it, it runs up to 29 or so depending on what it is outside. But at idle they all run nine to 11. So you could be flowing twice as much air and the computer doesn't know it's only going to give you as much fuel as it thinks you need. As clean. Yeah, and that's where people don't realize what you know why they need to do it. And when you change the air in and the air out exhaust, the computer has no idea and you're going to be in a place where the it's just going to give you what it thinks it needs the bikes not going to be happy it's not going to run good.
Aaron Staudinger 14:45
So
Roy Merritt 14:48
how do you tune the bike? You know what what is tuning? That's what
breaks down to me out. So So what it breaks down to is the main
facture has the ECM, the you know, the engine control module, electrical control module, whatever you want to call it.
But the thing is, you can't just go in and change things. No, you can't. It's not like you can just go in and be like, Oh, one more fuel here. That's not how it works. So you need some type of device. That defeats that, that over that first firewall into that ECM, and now depending on the device, some open up more doors than other
this is why things like fuel pack don't work when you get past an air filter and an exhaust. Yeah, it's because they do not open as many doors to change, as say, powervision or TTS or even the Harley tuner although the new Harley tuners garbage Yeah.
What's so hard to explain to people is how many doors there are. Yeah. And then
Shane Langdon 16:00
don't understand. The Harley tuner is garbage and yeah, because it loans you 8% 8% and only in certain areas. Yeah. So
Roy Merritt 16:11
there are what they call tables. And if you were to picture them, and I'm going to try to post them Excel spreadsheet, yeah, it's a grid. And you know, your left side is your RPM, and your top is your map or your throttle position. And the computer connects the two, you know, so when it sees 75%, throttle, and you know, 1300 RPM, it's going to go to that square, and that's how much you know fuel is going to give. Kinda, yeah.
What, that's where people think that's all it is. So now human element comes in is what he was talking about before where you're correcting? No, I'm actually talking about computers still. Okay, so and you kind of brought this up the team at the temperature? Yep. Okay, now we have to factor in changes with temperature correct. So now we're adding in another
factor and another table. And that table has to interact with more tables like maybe the warm up table.
Table. Correct. And then we have timing table. When do we fire the spark plug? Okay. As it gets hotter as it gets hotter Yeah, knock
Aaron Staudinger 17:20
on the spark and I still can't get a straight answer if I okay to spray water meth before the team app to spray after all this damn thing I would say after Yeah, damn it, man. I can I could do it before so I could get that timing table. Yeah, here's the problem is you're gonna change the temperature. That's what I want.
I'm thinking about running a damn cool can
Mike VO 17:46
you
Aaron Staudinger 17:50
run it through a little
Roy Merritt 17:53
Folgers coffee can I have done it on a Honda?
Aaron Staudinger 17:57
I'm gonna have a frickin water pump back there. When I put a pull
Shane Langdon 18:00
Cool, my buddies with this turbo little turbo Miata with a giant like t 30 turbo on it just a massive turbo. And I think is even bigger than that. And the he couldn't even run the hood because it's set up so big and he would come up to the stand. I was working in that little hotdog stand back in the day and they would come and start stealing all my ice water out of the coolers. I'm like, Hey, man, I need that. I mean, he dump it in the sprayers for his windshield. And he had those lines. He took those lines off any random onto his intercooler. Oh, yeah, yeah. So So when he's trying to pass the car, whatever, he just hold the sprayers and it would instantly throw cold water ice water on the intercooler and he'd pick up power. Just like we'd come up like every 30 minutes after doing a run down the mountain and back up and you pull back and I'm like, Hey, man, I'm not gonna have any more ice drink. Like he.
Roy Merritt 18:57
So, you know, back to the tuning thing.
You know, we talked about throttle position. The map reading is what's really interesting and where people don't realize the challenges, you know, hitting a throttle position and matching that RPM is really easy. But map actually takes into account the pressure going through your load, you know, a quarter throttle at a very heavy loads gonna pull a lot more than a quarter throttle with no load. What's up you freshmen bitches
Aaron Staudinger 19:31
my command to have his first drink come Yeah, yeah, come on. You got this working. Oh, guy. Love yourself loud. Turn it down. Okay, you can't Oh, that well.
Roy Merritt 19:46
The wider you are, the more you have to give it throttle. Yeah, yeah. So map. When we get into the speed density systems, the map load makes things a little trickier reading that right off that piece.
papers. I swear to God I swear to God, I knew the alphabet speed density stuff, but I did google it so that I could like not say the wrong thing. I'm supposed to your balls anyway. I'm late to the party feel like Aaron. Yeah, that's all right.
Shane Langdon 20:18
So yeah, sure. Got
Roy Merritt 20:22
Jim Beam tonight
buffet. So so hot to catch my cup. Not as hot as the last of those 130 prove your hot, hot. So to catch my cup with everybody else we've kind of made it into
Unknown Speaker 20:39
what are we talking about? The dyno tuning, you know? Yeah. Trying to keep it simple.
Mike VO 20:45
takes more than an hour. Yeah.
I thought there's like of all the topics on the show. We're like, we're gonna do this in an hour. No, no, no the tuning Yes. We can explain it in five minutes or six hours.
Roy Merritt 21:01
Just out of the dyno but no we've made it on to you know talking about the different types and the way I kind of put it was
you know you need a tuner which is basically a key to to get past that first wall and the ECM different tuners open up different doors and there's a lot more doors that's why for whatever three so we're talking about
the Whammy Yeah, fucking we were, we were we were kind of talking about you know, everybody thinks throttle position and RPM is kind of all there is you know, then we went into temperature and and timing and all the different tables that there are there and there's a ridiculous amount of information. These are a few of my favorites. Exactly. Um, you know, Mike's Mike's got the most experience probably of all of us here without question.
I've done my share of tuning but on a different platform than we use here and and so I haven't done much yet. I know sooner or later he's going to make me but he's a hater. Jordan Jordans been doing pretty good on his and Shane's been killing it. You know, he's been doing a good job helping Jordan helps me. They know what they do. Absolutely. Well, that's why I think that's why as a shop, we are as good as we are. You
Shane Langdon 22:28
know, we help each other help. Yeah. And we all kind of bounce it off each other when it's like, I'm not really sure about this. What do you think although I do need to start letting Jordan because he comes up and he's like, I just have a question. I keep going and then I do it. He's like, Alright, thanks. And I've noticed that it's almost the same thing. Yeah, most of the time. So now I need to do what Mike did was just come in and look at it go Hmm, and then turn walk.
Because that's what I was just like, I love it. All right. Yeah. How cool was that?
Mike VO 22:58
Today I said look at that dip right there.
He's like, yeah, it's right there on me and I was like, No, this one you're gonna get rid of that right and he was like
Roy Merritt 23:07
when you get rid of that dip come and talk to me. Yeah. So you know as we're talking about this when you talk about the dyno charts that everybody sees
We are very proud now what?
We are very proud of the dyno charts that we put out of our low end rail. Oh, yeah. And they're real. I'd like
Shane Langdon 23:35
that puts out well, torque is horsepower is not okay.
Mike VO 23:40
You know, I have to call bullshit there because I have yet to see it 3d printed dyno chart.
Roy Merritt 23:46
Pretty much offline. I mean, it's on a piece fair enough. And in the three dimensional world. Yes.
So, you know, in the end, there's there are honestly
More tables and doors as we call them.
And information that you can change than you need if you're using a good tuner.
You know, when we get into the builds, like we do here, we use more of those doors and more of those tables than most other people.
Mike VO 24:22
So a lot of them like you have exhaust gas
reversion and shit, the tables that most of them are set. So, you know, we ran into one today where Jordan was doing a lot of tuning and one of those tables wasn't set up the dilution effect. Yeah.
Roy Merritt 24:39
What cameras at so 475 Yeah, I don't remember. So, I'm gonna I'm gonna interrupt here for a second
and say that this is one of those places that TTS has a really good solution. And all of those tables for the GR the dilution and all that stuff, they automatically calculate off of
you're tuning stuff, and they tell you what you need, which is pretty interesting. You know what, again that we talked about when you when you do your cam selector in the TTS Yeah, if you can select it like while you're choosing Yeah, while you're you're doing your auto tunes. So
we're countering Yeah, I was about. There's two tuners out there that are worth a shit. And I think we can all agree on that. Yeah, TTS and powervision are the only two that are worth using. And Thunder max ECM. Yeah.
And they're pretty good. They're good. They're good. They're there. They're not bad. I do not hate them. But I just don't like them because I'm not fluent. My well. Yeah, I agree. I agree. 100% that I don't know him that well. I don't like to see the reason for a new ECM when the stock ECM will do what you need. So that's my argument. But so here's here's
turbo, turbo. Absolutely. You know, nitrus
Mike VO 25:59
here's when you
Here's the nice thing about about the thunder Max, it is the best closed loop system out there. Agreed. And when you when you necessarily can't dyno tune a bike, it's a it's going to get you much closer than any canned map from a TTS or or a power vision we talked about a little bit earlier, the narrowband wideband argument about speed, you know which one's faster obviously, it doesn't matter how you look, it's easier to count 13 to 15 quicker than it is 618 or whatever it is, you know,
Roy Merritt 26:32
but closed loop we did not talk about and any bike with oxygen sensors and a fuel injection system at some point or another is probably running in in what they call closed loop. So, closed loop is when the computer is taking the information from the oxygen centers and making changes to the intake or fuel due to you know what's going on
Yeah, we'll only do this in a very narrow air fuel ratio, because narrowband is an option designed is supposed to be in a short term correct table it is it is usually at cruising speeds, right? When you're full throttle or on DSL, most of the time you're not using closed loop you're in what they call then open loop. Well, so that's if you running a narrowband system. Correct. So the narrowband systems are, are a part time closed loop. And a common misnomer in the narrowband systems is people
Mike VO 27:36
especially
Aaron Staudinger 27:39
a
Mike VO 27:42
I guess people that just haven't seen the changes like in real time they think that they are oh two sensors only work in that closed loop setting. And the the, no, they always want cm is only taking readings directly from the sensors when they're enclosed.
But the ECM is always monitoring the co2 sensors to create the, the,
Roy Merritt 28:06
the tables, correct, they're always monitoring what's going on, it only makes live real time changes during
the short term as the adaptive value is what he's talking about. So, okay, when you run it, like you look at all this stuff, there's an adaptive fuel value, and usually it'll dance around if everything's working right. And, you know, so last time you fired it up, it was wanting a lot of fuel. And this time, it's maybe not because it's warmer, or it'll be like 90 95%, you know, but if it's colder and it wants more fuel, and you know, it's drier, it'll be like one one to eight or something like that. It'll dance around those numbers. So when you're when you when you're setting up the bike to dyno tune, there's the AF our table
Mike VO 28:55
where you set your air fuel ratio, whether it's in lambda or air fuel ratio, how
You want to do it you know? TTS does lamda I prefer air fuel ratio just because numbers are
Roy Merritt 29:07
familiar number well yeah and lambda is supposed to be easier to calculate well but but you know cuz you can get to 3243 to one is stoic as a 47 okay 14 seven and that one and whatever on on lambda yeah yeah
Aaron Staudinger 29:27
you're setting it to 14 three and lambda that's like 980 so yeah easy part you're gonna like dump a bunch of of Afghans are not as gas was that 85 minutes? Yeah, the lambda calculation is here to easier to make if you're changing fuel. So you really have to use the air power show. We talked about
Roy Merritt 29:47
it for a second the different tuners which is TTS. Oh, I thought we moved on to the difference. difference between the two one. TTS is designed around lambda
if you run airfuel
Little more clumsy. You know what I mean? all the calculations work better in lambda.
And TTS is designed for auto tuning. And if you don't know what auto tuning is the auto tuning is, if they don't know don't tell them using the stock oxygen sensors, gave it all away to make a few values for the intake while you're in the dyno. Now you're going to use the GA to get it close, because they're narrowband oxygen sensors. And this is why there are narrow and wide band This is why there are auto tunes. This is why there is Thunder max. Because if you don't know how to get it close auto tune or narrow bands, all of that system will not work. It will not work at all. You have to get it within like one airfuel you know, you got to be pretty close. You have to be very close there. So
when you're in a shop and you don't have a fucking dyno, you buy Thunder
Max and you put a fucking wideband on it and you out there, you run it for a little bit and you let those wide bands figure it out because they can go lower and higher or Don't bullshit performance work if
Mike VO 31:14
you start at the basics.
You know, you put big motors on people because you watch it on YouTube and then you give them an mp3 tuner and everybody's unhappy. Yeah, and then we get a phone call. Yeah, and it's it sucks. It sucks at the same time we get a lot of that shit.
Aaron Staudinger 31:31
Dude, we
Mike VO 31:35
they do all this shit. And then the first thing that I tell the guy was, well, they gave you a shitty tuner. You got to buy a new one. What do you mean? They said this was great. Yeah, well, you're talking to me. So
Roy Merritt 31:45
obviously, isn't that great? You wouldn't be talking to me. Mike up there because Mike is a little more balls than me. Yeah. So it's like, oh, but now for him. One of my one of my stance was mp3. He was like, Oh, yeah, no, and it was always
Mike bump tune with that
Shane Langdon 32:03
sorry that's not gonna happen well I really customer tell him like don't bring that pipe in the dyno is not gonna even even last try with powervision that came in that another shop. I think one of the locals built it. Yep. And when we put in the dyno tuning, they didn't even drill out the head pipe and it had a two in one and the two exhausts on it. Oh yeah so
they auto tuned it Yeah, charged them for hours for a full tune well and he wasn't happy we ended up pulling now I will tell you nine horses out of it and got them 20 foot pounds more torque off the bottom all we did was they did not know what they were doing there probably if they were auto tuning they were doing it with mp3 they don't know.
Roy Merritt 32:48
I don't I don't know that. I don't know that well and what I'm saying might be coming out mass but I don't know that power visions auto tune is as good as DTS.
Mike VO 32:57
You know, what am I shooting because I've never done that.
Unknown Speaker 33:00
I
Roy Merritt 33:01
think our vision of mine, yeah, our vision is more for the way you guys tune, which is real? Well, yeah. Keep it real. No, it's it's, it's using the VGA, it's actually not using the computer to figure it out using your brain. And when it's all said and done, you know. And when you do that, you can replicate those results and you see what's going on. Now, auto tune is a little different. It only works up till 80% throttle anyways, you still have to manually tune like you know anything about Yes, because when you're moving, when you're moving through the cells that fast it can't capture the data. But what I'm saying is how do you without drilling the header to get an A good air fuel reading to into one into to know the last one was a two and a one or two? How did they get the last 20
Mike VO 33:51
that's why after, after the guy paid them thousands of dollars to do it. He then paid us $500 to do it again. Yeah. So Aaron
Roy Merritt 34:00
touched on the telling people I'm not gonna run that exhaust on the dyno and you get into a conversation there which is man if you want to run that pipe which we did you want to run that pipe you're gonna pay another four hours for dialogue I don't want to take this chart I don't I don't want to take your money I saved it so we had this guy from New Jersey
Mike VO 34:22
and he so he called Aaron is probably mainly
called Aaron random through the ringer for a motor bill then ended up buying the shit locally and having some fucking dirt ball pits at shop up there that's saw at once on YouTube and they worked on twin cams channel so
together guys don't get him and he had a short short well here's the funny thing the rules have never been different. Yeah, so the earning so they've ever so they're the guys that were doing the short side dumb pipes on Twin Cam and saying oh, well the Milwaukee he said we're about a minute No, you're a fucking idiot. Sorry. This is one area that you know usually I'm pretty
PC but no this is these people do stupid shit because they see things on the internet. And then here's the funny thing. They're like iPhone owners, you know people that buy iPhones and they buy Apple play and they buy all this apple stuff. They're stuck in Apple. Yeah. So they never talk bad about Apple because their stuff they're shooting their own foot if they do because you can't go into something else because you everything you want is proprietary now, and you realize that you've got your fucking stuck. So this company, which is really something so we talk about what is done into what, why we're kind of talking about why how, why, why would be if you change the air in or the air out really. Now, on baggers, they have a catalytic converter. So when you put mufflers get rid of those on a catalytic converter on a stock bike, you can get away This is why you can get away with doing mufflers on a touring bike because they have a kind of leaked
Roy Merritt 36:00
burger which provides back pressure enough that it doesn't change so much you're going to get out but if you do an air filter you need to do something. At least the map so, because that's bold and daring Yeah, but where's the cat on the soft? placers Exactly. sportsters Dinah's, they don't have cats and people are like I just threw mufflers on it dude your bikes running lean in spot I don't think you realize there's no back pressure no you you put fucking shorts on it You're an asshole sweet so what I wanted the noise bro Wait wait so if we change the exhaust Wait, let's go back
Mike VO 36:38
I'm not done with this fucking guy from New Jersey.
So he buys the shit somewhere else and then they can't get it to run right and then they so they can't do it with a powervision flash they tried to auto tune it they did all this shit then they ended up buying them a thunder backs. And then oh my god and then he's they still can't get it to run right and then he calls and he says man I need help. You know blah blah blah
I thought I'd go start going through the questions. You know what they did your bike or cam do you have? Okay, what do you what do you run for a tuner? Well, I have a thunder max. I know I gotta get rid of it. And I was like, No, we could do the thunder max. Oh, oh, you can, uh, the shop said it was garbage. And I was like, No, it's not garbage. They just don't know what they're doing not garbage. You have the wrong basemap. You know, if you don't start with the right bass tune, you can't tune it, no matter what system you have. So so. And then he says, and I said, Okay, so what are you doing with exhaust? And he goes, Oh, I've got a sonic two into one short side dump. And I was like, yeah, I'm not gonna do any with that.
And he goes, Oh, yeah, well, I got to keep the exhaust. I said, Well, then our conversations done. So stay in New Jersey. Yeah. And and we're finished. But what do you recommend? And I said I would recommend and I said, Do you want like a real loud snappy sound? Or do you want a soft? Do you want to tune to one loud one performance that I said, Okay, well, you know, DVDs
Well, that's an extra 1100 dollars. I said, Yeah, but
Unknown Speaker 38:00
Do you spend all this money,
Mike VO 38:02
but you can sell your pipe? This is almost verbatim the the conversation I had with him, but you can sell your pipe on eBay or Craigslist or whatever, because a lot of people like that look, and if you have a stock bike, you know, it doesn't really hurt the performance that much. So you can get some of your money back. Well, but man, you know, like, if you could, can you just tune it with this pipe? And I said, and I said, Yeah, I can tune it with that pipe. But here's the deal, you're going to drive 900 miles, and then you're going to give me $800. And I'm going to tune the pipe. And it's, it might run better, but you're still gonna have the same shitty low end response, you're still going to have a two stroke power band, and it's not going to be what you or I want it to be after you bring it to me. And when you go back home, you're not going to say I wouldn't listen. And that's why I don't like the way my bike runs. You're gonna say I took it to moonshine, and I spent all this money and it still runs like this. Yeah. And I said, so here's what I'm gonna do. Either you put on a pipe
Roy Merritt 39:00
I recommend or you keep it in New Jersey. Yeah. And you do whatever the hell you've been doing so far. And maybe just see if you can find somebody else up there. That'll give you some other formula. So doesn't attitude. Yeah, it doesn't. Yeah, it and to anybody listening this looking for a dyno tune that is a person you want to diner to nearby. So, so there's no, there's no there are no happy stores down in Florida was the same way and like I said he helped write the book blah blah blah he was very knowledgeable for doing it forever. I mean, he knew knuckleheads all the way up, you know, everything, but
he was a fucking dick, man. Seriously, what do you see him on Mike? I mean, he was cool with me. I can't say he's ever been an asshole to me. I can't tell you how many people know I'm gonna listen to dumb Yeah, later and I'm gonna hear what you guys said before I got here.
We bought a new dyno. We were the shop. We were the hardest.
dealer there. That was performance in Orlando for a good while. He was the the other guy that had been doing it forever that people came from out of state to have him tune his bike like he had a deal going.
Key all the time I would get customers that would come in and be like, Man, that guy said he's not gonna fuckin to my bike.
Choose me.
Be like, yeah, I've heard that before.
No, that was a bird.
Mike VO 40:32
He's still he's off a cliff. He's Yeah.
guy.
Yeah,
Roy Merritt 40:45
this guy would exactly like Mike. I'm not gonna tune that. I'm sorry. Go somewhere else. And the dude made lots of money man. He was always busy like never. And he had that same mentality, which was if you want me
to tune your bike and make it run good, you're going to do this right period cuz we want we're not
doing Yeah, the guys that will tune anything or not those guys know. Yeah, right guys. They're like, Yeah man, whatever you want, I'll tune it. What they're doing is auto tuning. And they're getting as close as they can and they're praying to God. Yeah, it works out well. Exactly. And they're sitting it out. Yeah, yeah, I've met tons of them. Oh, yeah, just like 90 may I've percent of the people out there attending and when and when shit starts going south and the die they just add fuel. Yeah, just dump more fuel until it stops running shitty. Yeah. Yeah, nobody looks at timing temperature. Any other things that can be going on throttle progress up. Yeah, there's a table that
Mike VO 41:48
Yeah. We want to put it in performance mode. mess it up. Yeah, look, you know, talk about this anymore.
Aaron Staudinger 42:00
So Johnny
Roy Merritt 42:05
dry waiting watch it when you whenever you the part where we're talking about where right now it's over Johnny if it's over if you go somewhere and you're doing stuff to your bike and you go somewhere
first off Do they have a dyno?
You know, are you really gonna get somewhere that's like yeah, we can put a map it it'll be fine. Well
Aaron Staudinger 42:33
it might run but that's the same thing of coming up with where you come to us you watch all the videos you know we're good at what we do. Yeah, you still want to argue about your side dumb pipe? Yeah. Oh, that's that's decreased. I'm serious over time. Like I've been doing with you guys these videos out for a year and a half. But look, the arguments have become less than less than I get more calls now that just say, Tell me Show me the promised land but tell me what to do.
Mike VO 43:00
Yeah, imitation is the most I mean, the curve was an imitation is the best form of flattery flattery. Yeah, yeah. So we've been talking about exhausts and baffles and tuning baffles for what four years. Yeah. And then our major competitors fuel moto t man.
Steve down GMR cycles you know, these guys are the top the best in the business, you know?
All the sudden, baffles is this big ass thing. Yeah, you know what I mean?
Yeah, well, we're gonna change the baffles depending on what you run, because it's it's science. It's not like
Roy Merritt 43:39
my God, look at that. Holy shit. I just made a pot pie. Yeah. Your walkie for sevens and whatnot. I'm
like tea man. These guys are making exhaust exhausts.
And they were be racing told, worship. They weren't making a whole lot more powerful.
When they match them to what the stock was with that yeah because the design was good you know what I mean first stock motor we should send maybe a mile cam and so on they had a really hard time in the beginning selling new ones because they didn't make a whole lot more power on a stock bike. True story. We bought one of the first ma RV racing pipes yes I used to use so much RV Raceway
Mike VO 44:32
good well they run good on I never ran them on baggers I was random on the small bikes which you know, the small bikes have a little bit different relationship because you don't get as much you don't have as much exhaust pipe so you just kind of take the short flow the low end and that's just how it works. So we dial it call them back and say man, this thing is not flowing right? You got you got no bottom man. Oh, you guys are fucking full of shit you know you're talking about this pipe will handle and this was a one
17 to time.
Hot super hot 117 because 128 one out yet yeah. Joe Jeffries. Yeah, I know there was no zero soft tailpipe thing that we could match it. So we call already racing. We're fucking assholes. We don't know we're talking about Yeah. And then I've noticed now he makes a new pipe for Yeah, that makes so it's exactly the what we told him about that is you guys and we've talked about this before you guys sat down and said this is what I think we need. And I came back with the calculation. I want that damn folder back.
Roy Merritt 45:37
I know. So we went back to the calculations that the old school MMI taught Yeah, we're not doing anymore. No. Yeah. And we were I mean, it was so close to what the measurements were. That it was
Unknown Speaker 45:56
like be like
Mike VO 45:58
mad at me over that. Yes, like
Unknown Speaker 46:00
Cut it
Mike VO 46:06
out, put a line right there, that's good enough. And he's,
Roy Merritt 46:11
like, so close that it was not worth changing anything when we did the calculation. So here's where a lot of spy doesn't make any sense.
Shane Langdon 46:23
Those guys, those those calculations that we made, there's no way those guys don't have that. It's math. It's math. The math and me are good. Do your math. It's math in the master good. I like judge Evans comes in he goes, he sees that new the fueling pipe or the the running bunch. And he's like, well, he goes well. So I'll see you guys around this a lot of them. Is that something I would need? More like nope. And he's like, Well, you know what, it'd be better and we're like, well, you might gain some here and lose some here. I was like, but you have a one off pipe that's as loud as hell. And I know that you want that like, look at me cuz
Unknown Speaker 47:00
have
Aaron Staudinger 47:03
technology in it that you're not going to get from?
Roy Merritt 47:06
Some crazy pipe? That pipe is designed for that bike? Yeah, straight up. The math was done on that bike math. Math. Yeah. So
Mike VO 47:19
you know
Roy Merritt 47:25
got a stroke to do man my sister my sister used to call crystal see on your birthday.
And crystal Yeah, that isn't crystals. Yeah. But you know, a difference between a good dyno tune and a bad dyno tune is also already torque different.
Just a different person and I don't know about Shane. But I almost guarantee Mike has Have you ever put a
Stop by on the dyno. Yeah.
Shane Langdon 48:03
How much did you gain? know how hard you laughed? I'm gonna say no, obviously three, five on both a problem and get up to 10 Yeah, 10 foot pounds of torque, I'll just say guaranteed three to five. Yeah, no Sure, at least cuz we even took in or talked about a little bit ago about canned maps, but didn't get into that earlier. So can map is basically like powervision hasm. We go, you know, it's meant for this intake and this exhaust. Yeah, we tested a few
sporster that was exactly that the intake and the exhaust was exactly what it was for. Yeah, we put it on. And we did a poll now went through and actually did a full dyno tune on that nano tune, a real tune. And what we gained like six and eight off of the can map, not just not so. So this is this is where the p3 thing comes in, into why it's so
Mike VO 49:00
Bad
Roy Merritt 49:01
mp3 actually has an auto tune function that you could make one of their maps a little better. Yeah, but it says nobody duck No. So they tell they tell Benson Hines well I have this intake and this exhaust event at times I am yeah
Unknown Speaker 49:21
yeah so so
Shane Langdon 49:26
you're good enough to run a shop that's always that's not always that's always sold. Yeah and so they'll tell you okay well go out and write it in different scenarios for a full tank of gas. Yeah, and they
Mike VO 49:43
put
Shane Langdon 49:47
me after like a stage two or three or whatever
to put.
Okay, we adjusted the map. Put an hour to
And go write it for a full tank of gas. Then take it out of auto tune and go for another tank of gas to let it kind of adjust itself. And then and then let me know how it is like 300 Yeah, so right, like running three to 400 Okay, like just touched on so here's the thing. When what what is what is closed loop operating 14 to 14 six? Wow, you can set it whatever you want. Yeah, well, no but did
Roy Merritt 50:35
closed loop is a certain airfuel it's a 14 to 14 g run 13 nine to 14.
Mike VO 50:43
Okay, so maybe maybe 14 nine might run up to 15. So if
if you're not in that area, you're that's what so that's what narrowband. Yeah, well, narrowband o to sensor with an open was so hybrid.
Roy Merritt 51:00
It said we put a bike in auto tune. And and this happens pretty much anytime you have any auto tune function for the most part, it puts as much of that map as it can into that rain, which is usually in the 1414.
Mike VO 51:21
range. So here's how autotune works if you're running a narrowband system, so there's a table called the AFR, which is the one that I refer to as the god table. Correct. So that is all of your loads and all of your RPM ranges and what you tell your system that you the AFR or lambda you want to run based on the load and the RPM that you're running, and the load is manifold absolute pressure. So when you're on a
no matter what you're doing on the motorcycle, it's trying to get to that table. So the adaptive fuel table
Value table that you were talking about earlier.
Are you taking a picture of the wall? That's the one. I'm trying. I'm trying to turn.
Let's see. I was trying to do a super rude it's like you're taking a selfie. extremely cool. I need pictures of this episode.
Where's your GoPro? Yeah, I don't know I should be able to do like super wireless $900 GoPro and has a 13 Minute.
Shane Langdon 52:27
iPhone has a wide mode.
Mike VO 52:30
Oh, I see it's just a selfie fine.
So
anyway, so you have this God table. So everything that you do, you're the ECM is trying to get to whatever you set that table at. So when you go put it into when you put it into
a loop, or I'm sorry, auto tune and you have a narrowband system. It changes the entire table.
14 seven.
And then when you're riding around in autotune, it picks up what the information from the oxygen sensors and the wherever their voltage ranges how it can tell whether it's above or below 14 seven, search making it 14 seven is one volt. and your the amount of SEO particles on your
scissors makes it at point eight, then it makes a suggestion to the table for 20 points to move from point A to one. Correct. So that's basically auto tune works but here when you're in a car is always trying to achieve 14 seven Yeah, that's that's what it's doing. So the next shift for making power No, here's what I want to get into. Here's the deal, here's the deal. So
it's more complicated than that because it when you're in auto tune and your entire AFR table is it 14 seven, you're writing it around and it's trying to match all these points to
14 seven. So, you know when you get to like where the square turns dark green or, or get the tree, or whatever, whatever the color, whatever tuner you're having gets to the max out, that's either as much as it can move in one session, which on a lot of tuners is 15 points, or it's hit that 14 seven mark. So then when you get out of the closed loop, you save it, load it, whatever you want to do, then you load those tables into your, your V tables. Then when you change the
back out, when you change it out of a
autotuning, it puts the AFR table back to what you set it at. And then the computer makes the calculations said if you were at 14, seven, and now this, like this section is 13 one yeah, it makes the calculations and says well, then I need to make this much of a change to a list what people don't realize
Roy Merritt 55:00
About auto tune and people go out the watches auto tune it you know don't auto tune and ride it around the bikes gonna run like shit. Yeah while you're on your auto
off the line so shops like you were saying oh send them out write him a couple hundred miles
if they send him out an auto tune which shops do I've seen it I've done it four times yeah a lot the customer has no idea that that bike is not running like it's supposed to.
Unknown Speaker 55:28
Yeah, they'll come back
Mike VO 55:35
to sleep. Another step to that because street because because you're setting the AFR so lean because stoichiometric is perfect burn which is to lean to have any kind of power right you know, it causes hesitation and it runs super hot. It retards the timing for degrees. Yeah.
So that you're not
so that you're not like pinging And guys, notion and
Causing engine damage while you're trying to get it to this stoichiometric number. So your timing is also retarded for degrees while this is happening. So once you take it out of auto tune and put it back, it makes all these numerical calculations saying, well, so now that I'm going to go to 14 one instead of 14, seven, and I recommend at 20 points to get to 47, I'm going to take 20 minuses, why don't so we're going to do 17 points and this is what I recommend the change to be based on the calculations of the information as at the time so now on a wideband closed loop situation like a target tune or Thunder max. When you put it in auto tune, what it does is it changes that whole table to 13.1. Rich, and that's also what load tuning is on a dyno. If you do manual load tuning, you change the whole table to 13.1 you match 13.1 because the closed loop oxygen sensors will read between 11 eight and 18 xo is 11
Unknown Speaker 57:00
Yeah, yeah, this is why that he got into his rhythm and
Mike VO 57:06
that's why they're that's why they're wideband versus narrowband. Yeah there are bands like 1213 to 15 or 12 nine or 13 mile I'm sorry 13 nine to like 15 yeah it's very narrow. Yeah, that's why they call but narrowband is a better system is faster absolute faster. It's not what's faster and you're not in closed loop all the time. Well no and here's the thing. Cars, everything runs narrow wideband oxygen sensors at some point. Most of them our post catalytic converter. Yeah. Okay.
Roy Merritt 57:41
No system aside from like, auto tune systems on Harley's and shit runs, live fuel tuning off of a wideband oxygen sensor. Like it'll take those into effect. But the real like live actual wild
Mike VO 58:00
You're hitting the throttle or stepping on the gas, whatever it is, is done with narrowband or just pulled another set of lever. Yeah, for mine I had it. We tried. Yeah, you can't you can't, you can't do a tune it No, because you're you there's there's a delay. So when you're when you set your AFR table up, and the computer's trying to reach that AFR table in a closed loop system, if you're off by so say you, you want it to be 14 three at like 2500 RPMs and 30% map, which is just basically running around in third gear going 30 miles an hour. Yeah. browntown and you're just cruising, so you're going down a Boulevard, and you're you're right around that area. If you want it to be 14 one, and the ECM detects the voltage that it's 13 five with a closed loop system.
As it's 35 changes the 14 one then when you move to the next table and it's off, it's 35 changes it. It's bad changes and bad changes it bad changes and a lag but you're always chasing it. So when you're like, going through like a partial poll like say you're trying to get around a car, it never ever catches up. Because by the time the computer makes the calculation changes, it's here in the next step, and that's what I was saying earlier.
Aaron Staudinger 59:28
And super real lifestyle my bike after you told me I didn't believe it. I wrote it and wrote it and wrote it. And I felt a degrade over time and we have soft
Roy Merritt 59:39
Well, okay, so you're cruising here's the thing about cars killed, the fucking 10 cars will do something similar.
And the reason for that is because you are not racing it the whole time. Right? Yeah, right, exactly. If you had that ECM and all you are doing with it is drag racing, it would actually tune itself for drag race on you.
Over time, we would get better and better
at working on a car, you ride it to work every day and then you know, 10% of the time you want to give it hell, the computer gets confused, because it's not used to me to my car. Oh, yeah.
It's good. You gotta have fun we get so for you, if you look into wideband systems of any kind, whether it's, whether it's Thunder Max, whether it's Harley Davidson, whether it is power visions auto tune, if you read the fine print, every single one of them will tell you that you need to have a dyno tune basemap Yeah, because you need really, every single one of them if you read the fine print.
The basemap needs to be dyno tuned. Even
a half a point. Yeah. So when you get a diner tonight
Unknown Speaker 1:01:00
system
Roy Merritt 1:01:01
a narrowband system does the exact same thing. And that's the ultimate
catch 22 or hypocrisy however you want to look at it in the wideband systems is people you miss use them
in that they put maps in them and let the auto tune do the rest. When you talk to Thunder Max, they'll tell you you should really dyno tune your basement and that's about the same thing with the white bands like earlier I said, if it was somebody that goes speed limit never honks on it just rides and creases and you're gonna you're gonna be happy.
Shane Langdon 1:01:38
Slide man is perfect for it. But somebody anything more than that, they're gonna be disappointed. You can still only make
Mike VO 1:01:49
a certain level of calculations. So if you don't have
you, at the very least you have to have a base map that's close enough
to what you're trying to do your team
Make the calculations because even in a closed loop system if you don't have well if you
didn't if you're not in that rain, Thunder max knocking, okay, it's gonna pick up from 11 to 18. But it's not going to make changes that it's not going to make that big of a drastic change. Not on a map I can still so in a perfect example of that is Harley davidsons wide band tuner. So
a lot of people think that okay, if I use the Harley Davidson, wideband, I can use this other cam that's not a Harley Can you still can because you still have the base programs that are designed for a certain set of parameters based on V tables and timing and,
and your your air fuel table. That if you use a cam that creates timing that's outside of that, that parameter, it can never figure it out. So you can spend $400 on these closed loop Harley Davidson auto tuners and it runs even worse than it did before drive.
Aaron Staudinger 1:03:00
Because you try to turn a feeling five away on an auto chance. So
Roy Merritt 1:03:06
normally Good luck how many Harley tuners you think we pulled off in the last year? All of them? Yeah.
Mike VO 1:03:16
I was gonna say 1520 I would say 15 years myself. Yeah. I mean, that system works great if you do if you do the Harley setup, like so if you do a 131 and you want to stay in warranty and you do or at least sigh flow II flow head pipe, your dealer doesn't have a dyno. Yep. And you get the screamin Eagle tuner and you download the 131 program and you put the auto tune system on there. You're going to be great. Now, all dyno tune it and smoke you still, but you're going to be no you're going to not be bad for most dealerships out there. But when a dealership or any speed shop, tries to go into a situation where they're at
cams outside of the parameter of that system, or they're, or they're like, Oh, yeah, you know, we're gonna throw a 521 fuelling on here. It's gonna be awesome. Here's a fifth mp3 I called, I called Vincent heights and it gave me a custom tune.
Well, you know what?
We don't want you when we gave you that price. And you were like, Fuck, that's way too much. And these guys will do it for 3000 less. They will. And then I'll take that other 3000 and make it right. Yeah, that's that's exactly what every time the phone call every time last week, sometimes fixed it. We say it all the time. Sometimes trying to save 50 bucks cost you 500 we don't sit all the time. But do you sit does
Roy Merritt 1:04:39
in the end, like we talked about the guys from New Jersey. You know, he bought his pipe. He paid eight $900 a nice guy. No, yeah. I might have been a little rough on it. But the sunny side dumps got to be eight or $900 right? Oh, yeah, probably at least and so it's got nice cold stuff on it. Yeah, that's Yeah.
Mike VO 1:05:00
schools? Yes. So, I mean, we're gonna say he paid three or $400 for his first tune, right? And then he paid $900 for a thunder Max, okay. And then the shop that was doing the work gave his ECM to somebody else because they had a warranty that they thought there was a bad ECM and they didn't have one so they just grabbed his and put it another bike. Oh, well, so we're looking at 20 $700 My only advice is don't ever go to that shop again. For anything, so you spent 20 $700 on exhausting to do nothing else. We're just talking exhaust in tune at this point. Yeah.
Roy Merritt 1:05:38
And then I spent 1100 dollars on an exhaust and $400 on a to 505
Well, 1600 dollars. Yeah. 1600 dollars to 5020 $700 mistake
and people get mad when you're like this is how much it's gonna cost them while go somewhere else. Okay, we know
This is why we say okay, go, I'd rather have that. Yeah, because I promise you you will spend more money.
Shane Langdon 1:06:08
Well, I know we're wrapping this up here, but because you're spilling your drinks it's time to go Yeah, no
Roy Merritt 1:06:16
time to go we got some time in I know everybody got to go home at some point here but wrap it up with the the importance of equality fucking to people yet people don't realize. So if there is a shop and let's face it, in most metropolitan areas, there's probably at least one shop that knows what the fuck they're doing. I mean, come on. Well, I don't know, the numbers, but I mean, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of really good tuners out there out. There's a lot of you know, yeah, just because I haven't met them doesn't mean they don't exist, you know. So don't do do not. Here's the deal. If you haven't had a couple people tell you and the guy doesn't fucking tell you what he wants.
He's probably not good to him.
Unknown Speaker 1:07:00
You know,
Roy Merritt 1:07:02
people are not talking about how good of a tuner he is. And that he's an asshole. How about he doesn't tell you no to something? Well, that's what I'm saying. Like, like people that are willing to allow to nap or you know, problem.
Unknown Speaker 1:07:16
Worry. Yeah.
Roy Merritt 1:07:18
But guys that are like, no, that's gonna run like shit you need to do something else trust this guy. That's the guy.
If we if we spend the hours tuning it, and it's one not what we want, but definitely not what you want, so that it creates a sour point. That's where that's where the whole thing comes in. Because the guys that don't care aren't spending hours tuning. Yeah, they're auto tuning and they're not taking pride in what they're putting out. Well, on that note,
Unknown Speaker 1:07:53
man, it's gonna relate to earlier. No, no, we don't have to do I can do late.
Roy Merritt 1:08:00
So we need to clean clothes off show. It's my chain. Aaron. I know sir on the website if you go on there you can follow all our shapes Stop being so good you can
check us out on the website Talkin braap.com.
I try to post links to what we talked about here a Google searches.
I'm going to try to get some pictures, ie tables and some other things. We'll see if we can
push those up
Mike VO 1:08:33
but
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