Straight, No Chaser
Understanding Freedom through Money, Technology, Economics and Philosophy
Straight, No Chaser
Monthly Round Up 8: Capital Controls Come For Bitcoin
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
They don’t need to pass a new law to change your life, they can update “regulations” and call it a day. We sit down to unpack South Africa’s draft capital flow regulations from Treasury and the South African Reserve Bank, why the public comment window matters, and why the process feels like it dodges real democratic accountability.
We get specific about what’s being proposed and what it could mean for Bitcoin self-custody, peer-to-peer payments and everyday users who are not trying to “break the rules”, they’re just trying to save, spend and survive. We talk about the undefined threshold, the push to route transactions through licensed Crypto Asset Service Providers (CASPs), and how vague drafting can quietly expand state power over time. We also confront the human cost: the retiree you helped onboard, the small merchant accepting Bitcoin, and the ordinary citizen who suddenly faces the risk of a million rand fine or five years in jail for non-compliance.
Then we go to the hard edge: enforcement. Airports, borders, suspicion-based searches, demands for private keys, and even the idea of warrantless searches that echo South Africa’s worst historical instincts. We debate what actually works against overreach: public submissions, legal challenges, mass non-compliance, better OPSEC and building civil society muscle instead of waiting for corporates or politicians to rescue anyone.
If you care about property rights, privacy and the freedom to move your money, listen, share this with one person, and subscribe. After you’ve listened, leave a review and tell us: where do you draw the line on capital controls?
https://propertyrightsdefense.org
https://btcpay386617.lndyn.com/login?ReturnUrl=%2F
Links:
www.bitcoinforbusiness.io
X: @gavingre
X: @BTC_4_Biz
Primal: GavinBGreen@primal.net
NOSTR: npub12qv07tpwk8x8fy2uuqczghpappap395npuxvsx8pgksh97pezv7s8r7qta
Door-Kicking Powers On The Table
SPEAKER_02Just the one thing, the the consequence of what can happen here is that they can kick your door down and come and search your house without a warrant. That's what these what these draft regulations propose. Not just at the airport, come to your house with guns, point it in your face, and go through your stuff without a warrant. That's what's proposed here.
SPEAKER_01Hello
Why These Draft Rules Matter
SPEAKER_01everybody, welcome back to the show. This is the Straight No Chaser Podcast where we talk about human freedom through money, technology, economics, and philosophy. Today is the monthly roundup and we have almost a full heart. Oaken is uh busy dealing with the powers that be and giving them some advice. Hopefully, people there listen and um take what it says to heart. Uh as for the rest of us on the podcast, today we have one topic of discussion, and that is the new capital flow draft regulations that have been released. Uh the closing date is the 18th of May. So I do urge everybody have a look at the regulations, apply your mind, and please send your comments uh before the closing date on the 18th of May. These regulations are essentially just an update to the 1961 regulations, and those regulations were based on the original law, I think, in 1953. So this means that this is not a new law that is being enacted that has to go through parliament. This is simply a government minister or ministry updating regulations. They do not require any approval from parliament on this, and they have gone absolutely crazy with this one. I I don't think I've heard of a more ridiculously overstated or heavy-handed regulation in my life. But I mean it's absolutely ludicrous. This is really what it looks like when a government is losing control and is just going to go completely 100% communist on its citizens. Anyway, have a listen to the chat. Uh, it's a bit uh not a light-hearted one, I'm afraid, but it is a serious uh discussion for a serious topic. Hope you enjoy this one, guys.
What Treasury And SARB Published
SPEAKER_01Okay, good morning, guys. Welcome. Uh another delay, another drawing, I suppose, another month, another podcast. I don't know how else to call it. Um nice to see you guys here. I know we've got uh Oaken is busy um with governments, uh not advising for governments, it seems, but giving advice to governments. So um shout out to Oaken. Um good luck, brother. I hope it goes well there with whatever you are doing. Um so, guys, welcome. Um I think when I was looking at topics uh to discuss, the only thing that kept coming up into my mind is this new capital flows draft regulations. Uh, there's been so much movement going around. And uh I thought this might just be a good way to do it. We are a few days away from the deadline. I think it's the 18th of May is the um closing date for public submissions. So uh it'll be nice to have a chat about it, just get the word out one more time on another format and get this released and get the word out there. But uh I think Ricky, I'm just gonna swing this straight over to you because you are pretty much uh man on the ground. They're involved with the response from uh the Bitcoin community. And I know it's it covers more than just Bitcoin, but anyway, I'm don't want to ramble on Ricky. Um if you can just take us through this.
SPEAKER_02Gavin Adman, how's it? Good to see you guys. Um, yeah, so another day, another attack by the Fiat world on Bitcoin, eh? Jeez. So, yeah, for those people who don't know what's happening, the Treasury and Saab have published the draft regulations. So it's in a changing the regulations on the existing Exchange Control Act, which is a very sneaky way of doing it. Instead of drafting a new law that has to go through parliament, they draft new regulations which are implementation of how the law is implemented or guide on how the law is actually implemented. That's what the regulations are. So this means it doesn't have to go through parliament, it means the minister and his lackeys can just um you know draft up some new regulations and then implement them. Once it gets gazetted, it can be accepted by the minister within 24 hours, and that's it. Now you have new laws governing you. So I mean this begs the question like, do we live in a democracy when lawmakers, legislators can do this? They can just pass laws unilaterally. So they have this like um bit of a faux democratic aspect where they uh have a public comment period, which is obviously what we're engaged in now, um, where the public can submit their comments on the draft regulations. But um, we've seen this happen many times before where they promulgate these things, uh, put it out public comment and then ignore everyone and do what they want anyway. Um, so yeah, that's kind of the lay of the land. Um, the initial comment period was for set to expire mid-June. Um, they then shortened it by a month to now 18th of May. So, yeah, that's where we're sitting at the moment. Um, people need to go and obviously submit their comments to this, uh, opposition to it. And then the next steps happen after that. So, what I'm working on at the moment, and and as you guys know, I kind of got um I wouldn't say dragged into this. It's my civic duty to and and my duty as a Bitcoiner to get involved in this. So we pulled a bunch of concerned um parties together to form the property rights defense group. It's a voluntary association of concerned individuals. Um, we're not a company or an NPO or anything like that. We're just a we're a um voluntary association, kind of like a homeowners association, um, but a bit more upset. And um we got uh people together and our busy fundraising to um put money towards a legal battle um to fight this because we're under no illusions um as property rights defense group that the comment period is going to change anything. Um you know you've got to go and do it, you've got to submit the comments. We'll be surprised if it you know achieves something, but you've got to plan for the worst. So we're raising a war chase to fight this um in court. Um so yeah, that's kind of where we're at. We're very lucky to have some very smart and motivated people in our midst, Admon being one of them, um, who are assisting us with this on the ground. Um and it's yeah, it's been it's been a great experience to see this all come together. And you know, I'm I'm by no means the the linchpin for this. I'm just kind of you know someone who's said, okay, cool, I need to do something about it and and and gather some bright people together, and that's what we've done. So yeah, it's um it's still early days, and um we'll see where this goes, but we're willing to take the fight to the government. And um, it's important to know that the property rights defense group is not an industry lobby. We're not there to defend companies and industry, we're there to defend the individual hodler. Um we we fight for the individual um and for their property rights. So uh we're not like a yeah, we're not a we're not a lobby group for industry. There's enough of those out there, they can fight their own fights. Even though you know I own a company that works in the space, like I'm more concerned about this from an individual rights perspective, because if the individual doesn't have rights to self-custody, then then no one does, right? Um so yeah, I've been rambling, but but big picture, that's what that's what it's about.
SPEAKER_01No, cool, man. Um, thanks for that intro. And I think before we get into a bit of the detail and why this is um an issue, uh, it reminds me of um there was a case in the US recently, uh, and I think it highlights this whole issue about deep state. People like to talk about the deep state, and um, you know, it's one thing to think about a room, a dark room full of guys gleefully rubbing their hands and deciding how we can screw Joe public. But actually, in most cases, it's some well-meaning bureaucrat somewhere that is just writing out he's uh he's defending his position. He's defending the reason why he earns a salary, he's producing legislation, regulations, uh guidelines, things that he thinks are a good idea for the industry at large. Uh, I think last year, the year before in the US, there was a case where um some shipping company was required to have an uh observer from the local regulatory body on his ship while they were conducting uh whatever whatever their business was. And that company then had to pay the cost of having that observer on their ship. Uh this thing actually ended up going through to court, and the court overthrew it and just said, look, you can't have uh basically junior-level bureaucrats uh making decisions that affect uh that basically create new law and regulations for people. And and there's no due process on this thing. Uh like you said, this is just someone in some uh
Regulations That Bypass Parliament
SPEAKER_01department that just draws the stuff up and puts it out there. It doesn't even have to go through parliament, doesn't need to go through all those things. And uh these departments can just keep creating reasons why everybody has to jump through all these hoops. Um so just off the bat, I think this is exactly what this sort of sounds like. Someone's come up with an idea, and from discussions with other people in the space, uh some of them have said that um people in this department don't even seem to know who who drafted the thing, where it comes from, who's behind it. So there seems to be some confusion. I know that's a bit beside the point, but um, yeah, I just wanted to just talk about that as this is the this creeping government oversight uh interference into every aspect. Um I don't have a question there. It was just a statement and just saying, hey, this seems to be another one of those things.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, in my younger, more naive years, I used to think that like the banality of evil might be a thing where like it's not like people are overtly evil, the system just produces evil outcomes. But I've seen enough now in my life to know that like I think there are forces driving things like this. And like in government, it's obviously classic that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand's doing. Um, like you all of us have dealt with government enough, South African government enough to know that like the systems that they use to communicate are just terrific and don't really work. So it's part of the course that people in treasury don't know that this has actually been promulgated the way it has been. But that's beside the point. The fact is that it has been promulgated. And my question is by who? Like, this is a question I raised you know when the when I first heard about this. I was like, the asymmetric nature of this is that a faceless government bureaucrat in the treasury or group of them can write these regulations. Now that and the the the impact of this is like if it gets passed as written, self people who self-custody Bitcoin or crypto or gold uh face a risk of one million rand fine or five years in jail for non-compliance. So now everyone has to scramble, spend huge resources to fight this. You know, if you take all the resources spent combined around the country to fight this, it's vast. We're talking probably tens to hundreds of millions of rands. The only beneficiary of this are the lawyers who get paid to do this. But now, if you fail and this these regulations get passed, now everyone faces the risk of jail. But if you succeed, okay, um, and they get struck down, where is the sanction on the individuals who wrote these laws to start with that cost all these people all this money to go and fight this? So, this is what I mean by being asymmetric. Some faceless bureaucrat can come up with a bullshit law or regulation that impacts millions of people, and there's no sanction on them when they fail against. And so this, you know, there needs to be accountability on this on this front. Personally, I think this needs to happen. Obviously, it won't happen. We live in a society where government is like not accountable to anything. I mean, you see Saw Cyril yesterday saying he's not gonna step down, he's not gonna, you know, regardless of what the commissions find impeachment hearings, etc., he's not gonna step down. So there's no accountability in government. So that you know pisses me off. Um, but at the at the end of the day, like our rights and freedoms are constantly under attack by the bureaucracy, constantly. Um, and so you need to organize to fight back, and it's so, you know, to quote the meme, it's also tiresome, right? Like, I don't know why if they go if the if the government's supposed to be bound by the constitution, every regulation and law they write should first be run through constitutional master before it even gets to draft draft stage. But obviously that's not what happens. They just publish this thing, um, and then we have to go and fight it on constitutional grounds after the fact and cost everyone a bunch of money and time and effort and gray hair and you know blood pressure and all that. So, yeah, I mean that's kind of just the the way I feel about it. But um, yeah, and then and then to the greater point, like this is really about capital controls, right? The government is trying to protect capital controls. And someone told me made a great point the other day, like, capital controls are just a way for government to avoid accounts, bad for bad governance to avoid accountability. Because if the South African government is bad at their job, investors have no faith in it and they move their money out, and individuals move the money out of the country. So the way they stop that and get to still be bad at their jobs and be and and be terrible at governance is they just put capital controls in place. So now you can't, your money can't flee. Now, this does beg the question if if you are not free to move your stored time and labor, which is all money is and savings is, if you're not free to move it, do you really own that money? And therefore, do you really own that labor? And therefore, if you don't own the fruit of your labor, are you not a slave? Right to some degree, because slavery is a continuum, right? It's not like you have to be in Egypt, you know, chained up pushing bricks around to build the pyramids. There's there's continuums of slavery. And so if the government has a claim to your the your stored time, which is your money, and the work you've already done, like what what percentage of slavery is that, you know? So and our con I'm pretty sure our constitution like expressly prohibits slavery, if not, if not directly, at least it implies that slavery is bad and we shouldn't be doing that. So, yeah, I mean the the whole the whole thing really comes down to to capital controls. Why do we have capital controls in the first place? Um, and just like in apartheid, it was to protect the government from accountability of bad governance, because during apartheid, people were like, I don't consent to this, I want to move my money out, and the apartheid government's like, Yeah, yeah, and now the new government is just saying, I bull, you can't, you know, same thing. So they're enforcing an apartheid era law, and in fact, they're building on an apartheid era law. So you have all these so-called freedom fighters who fought apartheid who are now enforcing apartheid laws. What's that about? Anyway, I'll leave my rant there for now.
SPEAKER_01No, I mean it's uh thanks. Uh I mean, capital controls are sort of almost like macroeconomic stuff, really. But I mean, Haman, at this point, I actually want to bring you in a bit because uh you represent, in a sense, um, completely the opposite end of the macroeconomic view of things. So capital flows uh from a uh you know, a Bitcoin ecosity point of view, guys are using it as a medium of exchange, day-to-day money, just to buy things to keep themselves alive. Um, people that normally wouldn't be able to get bank accounts. So I suppose it would be fair to say grassroots level. Um and and this is also going to be impacted, um, correct, under this new um capital controls or capital flow rigs.
SPEAKER_00Uh I assume it will be impacted. Um I don't really know. It's uh kind of vague at this point in time. There will be some impact, but it's hard to say what the impact will be exactly. Um I think my biggest problem with uh with this draft is the fact that it is so vague. Um it's very hard to you know draw any sort of conclusions
The Accountability Problem
SPEAKER_00as to um what exactly is gonna happen. I mean the biggest issue is the threshold that was not defined. Uh, you know, that makes a big difference where that threshold is set. Um so yeah, I mean I I assume it will be impacted in some way, but exactly how uh remains to be seen.
SPEAKER_01Uh well, sorry to interrupt you there, but uh one of the things that I think the regs talks about is um peer-to-peer is going to basically be illegal. Uh, and businesses will not be allowed to accept uh Bitcoin payments uh unless it goes through uh what is it, a C A S P or something, a certified crypto asset service provider. Yeah. So peer-to-peer is basically going to be dead. Uh can't buy coffee over the counter at a shop that accepts Bitcoin payments. Uh and that was my concern in the IKASI example was uh there are store owners, I think, that are relying on this. And there are people that are relying on being able to pay in Bitcoin to get the goods and services from those stores. So this sounds like uh this is a disaster, if you ask me.
SPEAKER_00Um, I mean, as I understand it, I could be wrong, but as I understand it, um it all depends on where that threshold is set. So um I don't think they'll ever be very friendly towards peer-to-peer, but if the threshold is set at uh a million rand or whatever the case may be, then you'll still be allowed to make peer-to-peer transactions below that threshold. But that's kind of sort of irrelevant because I think the fact that they did not define the threshold kind of tells you everything you need to know. Um so as far as as far as I'm concerned, that threshold might as well be a hundred Rand. Um, because the intent behind these laws is what bothers me more than the specifics. And I think that's what a lot of uh well, not a lot, that's what some people um are missing, is that um you can't take these things at face value. You have to assume you kind of have to assume that there is, and I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna sound maybe a little bit like a conspiracy nut, but that's okay because there's another one on the school. Um so at least one. Um so you know, you you kind of have to assume that there is some sort of a force behind this that's driving it, that definitely does not believe in freedom of the individual. Um and I I don't I don't see that as a conspiracy view at all. I just think it's human nature. Um, you know, power power is probably uh by far the most powerful drug on the planet. Once you've had power over another human being and you can make them do what you want them to do, it's um I've never I've never had that, but I can assume that it's uh a high that's unlike anything else. Um and so you can't expect you can't expect people that have power to give it up. In fact, you can only expect them to ever want more and more and more and more. And that's what's behind this, I think. Um it's about power and control. Um so the regulations in in the way that they're written now specifically, I think exactly what these I mean I I don't I don't there's gonna be a lot of clarity that has to be provided once these regulations are passed. I mean, for example, the first thing they'll have to do is they'll have to set that threshold, right? Because there's this there's this undefined threshold in these draft regulations. And if that threshold is not defined, I guess there's a large part of the regulations that don't actually mean anything because in order to enforce these regulations, the threshold has to do has to be defined. So there's gonna have to be things that are further clarified and defined once these regulations come into effect. So I think speculating on what will and what will not be allowed by these regulations is it's not it's not pointless. Obviously, there's value in it, but I think it's more important to recognize what's behind us um and to and to prepare and and work based off of that understanding. Um you're dealing with people that want to take everything, um and if they could do that tomorrow, they would.
SPEAKER_02You know, I went to a talk maybe six years ago by Franz Grunier, and he made a statement that stuck with me ever since it is five. And what he said is like if you surrender the principle, the quantum doesn't matter. And the principle of a threshold is what I have a problem with. The quantum doesn't matter, like that's the thin end of the wedge. They use the threshold to pass the law, and then they just don't change the threshold for decades, and inflation does the work for them, right? Like we've seen this with your your single discretionary allowance. How much money you're allowed as an individual to take out of the country every year that our our benevolent overlords tell us we're allowed to take out of the country every year. That number was a million round for years, didn't change. Then in the last budget speech, they just doubled it to two million, which tells you okay, they should have been incrementally increasing it every year, but they didn't. So for years. People weren't able to take um more than a million rand out per year, and now all of a sudden they can take two, right? But what they'll do with the threshold is let's say they arbitrarily set it at okay, you can you can do what you want with Bitcoin, you know, for less than 50,000 Rand without you know going through a cast or whatever, and then they just don't change that for 10 years, and then in 10 years' time, 50,000 Rand is what 20,000 Rand is now, and then they just keep it there for another 10 years, and then it's the same as 100 Rand is now, right? And then they've achieved their they've achieved their goal. So the what needs to be forced, in my opinion, this is just my personal view, this is not PRDG or anyone else's view, it's just personal. Is that I don't think there should be this law at all. I think capital controls shouldn't exist at all. I think the individuals should be free to move whatever they want, wherever they want, in terms of their money and their stored labor. Um, because uh a threshold is just the thin end of the wedge. And all it is is saying, okay, cool,
Capital Controls And Real Freedom
SPEAKER_02we the peasants can transact amongst each other, but we don't really the government from the government's perspective, they don't really care about policing the peasants because it's the money is too small anyway to worry. It doesn't the the going after that the enforcement cost doesn't justify going after that small amount. But what they really care about is the big flows, because that's gonna be you know 90% of the of their revenue they're gonna get anyway, or or control they're gonna get. So the threshold is just there to be able to really enforce control and have like a filter where they can let the peasants do what they want, so the people with a bit more money, they can they can really clamp down on them. So, yeah, I think we should be fighting this on principle. Um, and the fact, like Advanced says, the fact that didn't include the threshold tells you everything you need to know. Um they do not want this trans this process to be transparent, and they are trying to screw you. And you know, if anyone is not conspiratorial by this point in the game, like you're not gonna make it, you know. Like it's not a conspiracy, it's a spoiler alert, right? Like you just if you if if you don't think that government is trying to screw you in 2026, like you're not you're not gonna make it, you know, like unfortunately. Um and you probably might not have made it already, you know, because if you paid attention and listened to government and done what they say you should do over the past, let's just say six years to keep it short term um from that big event in 2020. If you listen to the government, you have problems now, you know. I don't need to say any more than that, but people understand what I'm talking about.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I heard uh Max Hillebrand, uh who's also a well-known, outspoken guy uh in this sort of space, um, he's got a quite a nice way of uh viewing any kind of regulation or law, or uh I suppose it can even go down to uh a basic agreement with people, um, where he said if you you just take what they are proposing and then go to the far left extreme as to what is possible, and then go to the far right extreme as to what is possible within those requirements. Are you happy with the results? Uh, number one. And number two, that is the way to actually understand what this thing is going to be able to do. Because it's always pitched middle of the road. This is for your protection. We've got the holy traffic of um child pornography, money laundering, and anti-terrorism. You know, uh, how do you want your law package today? That sort of meme. Um, and I think that that's probably the point about the quantum is not as important as the principle. Because if if if they make this, um, like you say, if they make the threshold 100 bucks, uh, I mean, it's basically the end of the crypto. Sorry, uh, I know we're talking larger space, but this is a Bitcoin podcast. So this is the end of Bitcoin as an industry um in this country.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it just criminalizes everyone because you can't add Bitcoin, you can just ban yourself from it, right? So, like people are still gonna be doing peer to peer, and the black market's gonna boom, and volumes are gonna go up. More people are gonna be trading in Bitcoin because they the reason why the government is doing this is because they want to do bad things that and take away your life raft, you know. They are planning on you know printing more money and creating more inflation, and so now you don't have a life raft anymore. So it's just gonna push people into the black market and it's gonna criminalize uh normal citizens who should not be criminalized to start with. They just traded with each other voluntarily, they're not harming anyone. Um, so you know, government always says they I'm from the government and I'm here to help. It's like the worst words you can hear to quote Reagan. Um, but I was lucky enough to meet Max Hillebrand uh last year when Harman and I were traveling together. We spent a bit of time with him. And and his story is crazy, man. Like, I don't know if people notice about him, but he was involved with Wasabi wallet. And um was he would be in jail with the samurai guys if they didn't shut down Wasabi because Wasabi is doing a version of CoinJoin as well. They shut it down, whereas the samurai guys kept kept running. The samurai guys are in jail. Max is not because they they shut it down early because they saw the rising on the wall. Max has told me a couple of stories though, where like he was at conferences and he had random people come up to him, they're like, hey man, like can you help me launder this money? You know, like and he was like, These are obvious feds. Obviously, this is the Fed just trying to entrap him. And he's smart enough to know that this is a Fed. And he was like, he was like, Oh no, these these these guys are they're coming for us. And he's like, the feds are at the conferences, the feds are among us, they are actively trying to get you. Um, and so this is another thing people need to be aware of. Like, the then they fight you stage is in full swing right now, you know. First they ignore you, then they fight you, then you win. There's a big gap between fighting and winning, and we're in the fighting stage now, and like they've lucky for us, the government has shown their hand, is what they actually want to do. Um, so yeah, um, it's gonna get it's gonna get worse before it gets better. Um, and the only way we win this is by individuals getting involved and fighting for your rights. Because do not expect a corporation to fight for your rights, like that is not gonna happen. A corporation has its own financial interest, and the the the clever way that the government has structured this is they have the the CASPs, the regulated CASPs that have the licenses to do this stuff. You have to go through CASP. They've created a financial incentive for CASPs to align with this. And we've spoken to a few CASPs, some are fighting it out of principle, and I've heard directly from some CASPs being like, no, they they're aligning with the regulations because they're just taking the financial position that they're gonna be beneficiaries of this. So people need to be aware of that. Like I own a few companies, but I tell you this as a as a Bitcoiner, like a company is not your friend, to be honest, you know. Um, sadly, that's just not the way it works. So you have to take responsibility yourself, and you've got to go and take the fight to them. And and in South Africa, we're lucky in that we have a relatively weak government and a highly retarded government. And um, look at what's happened with eats. People just didn't comply, and eat all's we we won the fight against eat alls in Joburg, right? Like, I mean, Gavin, you live up there where we lost you pay for an e-toll, you know, you drive under those gantries, and just like, well, there they go, you know. So, yeah, fight back non-compliance. Um, and uh yeah, get ready, it's gonna get real.
SPEAKER_01Well, um I was a compliant citizen paying my e-talls because I had a business, we had a bunch of vehicles on the road, and uh I think they kept it at 285 Rand per month as to what the max charge on the e tolls would be. Um and I I I paid it. We we had e-tags in our vehicles. Um, and then at some point when this whole thing was looking a bit wobbly and there was talk that they were ghosts going to do away with e-tolls, uh, we added up we had spent half a million bucks over the years that etels had been in place. And I inquired, well, um, when do I get my rebate on some other tax? You know, because now I've paid my 500 uh thousand and um what do I get for it? And basically shrieks of silence. So uh I mean I'm like a late bloomer, I'm a bit dwarfed, takes me a long time to for the penny to drop, but uh uh that for me was pretty much the last time that I would uh you know go down that road of just continuing to um do the civic duty, so to speak. Um I mean I remember when with like 2010, uh you know, the 2008 financial crisis that happened, and we were hearing about people all over the world busy bleeding. But the 2010 Football World Cup was scheduled for South Africa, and the guys, the government was building car train and freeways and stadiums, and our economy was actually doing really quite well at that point. I mean, we hadn't had the Zuma years and all that other nonsense come in, so it was still the sort of early-ish days. Economy was actually doing quite well. Um, and I was I could see them building the freeways, and I'm like, well, this is awesome. I'm gonna get a freeway. If it's only gonna cost me 285 bucks a month for one of my vehicles to travel up and down this freeway and it'll save a
Peer-To-Peer Bitcoin In The Crosshairs
SPEAKER_01lot of time, I'm in. So I saw that as like a value add and I will pay. Um, what I didn't realize was that Joe Citizen is just gonna flip the middle finger. Uh, and I think this is where it comes down to government control. How does government control the population? They don't control the individual, they control the institutions. They get hold of the corporates, they get hold of the banks, and they say to you, you guys sort this out, and everybody has to use either an institution or a bank to transact, and that's how they get you. So the issue of if I don't, I mean, if I don't think I'm getting my tax dollars uh uh value added, I'm receiving that, there's nothing I can do about it. In most cases, most people who are salaried employees cannot do a tax revolt because their taxes are deducted before they even get paid. So that's completely out. There's no option to tax revolts in in this country. And I think most countries around the world are probably like that. Uh so what does that leave you? Well, that leaves you with maybe your rates and taxes at your local city council, where you can say, okay, I'm second-tiered of potholes, uh, traffic lights that don't work, street lights that don't work, and no water and no power. So you can try and withhold some of that, but of course, you withhold uh some portion of money, they're just gonna go switch off your power. Uh, and then they're not gonna listen when you say, hey, but I've paid my power portion, it's the other portion I'm not paying. Yeah, it's like one bull that comes through. They don't care, they'll just go switch you off. So then you say, Well, now what do I do? Now I need to get off the grid with solar and sink a borehole so that I've got water, and now I will go and fight my rates dispute. But it's costing so much money just to be able to argue that you should be getting what you've paid for the last 30 years that you've owned that property and rates and taxes and everything. Anyway, I'm going off on a ranch here.
SPEAKER_02But then they'll make a new law, a bylaw in the municipality or a new law nationally, that you need to get a license to put solar panels on your roof and you need to pay a license for having a borehole. And then they'll make a criminal out of you for doing that, and you have to pay a monthly fee to them to have photons hitting your roof and water coming out of the ground. So back to my earlier point: like, when do you admit that you are actually a slave? Because if you were living in the Roman times, they're providing you and you're a slave, they're providing you with food, they're putting a roof over your head, maybe they give you a blanket if you're lucky, and they say, Okay, cool, we give you all these services for 100% of your labor. Okay, so now you are if you add up all the taxes you're paying as a as a South African or as any individual throughout your life, probably works out like 80% of your you know, revenue. So you're okay, cool, you've made a 20% gain, and you get a few more things, and you've got a bit more uh freedom to walk around. But if you don't pay, then what? They chuck you in jail and they rarely take away your freedom. So, so okay, so now you're 20% less a slave, but you're still a slave. You know, so that's what people need to understand and get upset about. Because and you have the worst of us lording over you, you know, the most incompetent, the most corrupt, the most thieving lording over you and enslaving you. Like yeah, people need to get upset about this.
SPEAKER_00I have an e-toll account from 2019 for 50 Rand, and I've been receiving monthly invoices every month for the last I don't know how long has it been, six, seven years. Um I just look at my spam folder, the email is still there. Latest one is from April. My 50 Rand is still outstanding.
SPEAKER_01And you're TV license have they put penalties and interest on it? I'm just kind of curious.
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_02They've spent more than 50 Rand in server fees to send you those emails.
SPEAKER_00Oh, way more. Way more. I mean, it's been six or seven years.
SPEAKER_02But that's how you break the system, right? You amass non-compliance when the cost becomes more than enforcement, they have to abandon it. That's ultimately what it comes down to. And so, Gavin, to your point earlier about companies being where they apply the pressure. It's also well, it's all about attack surface, right? It's like the neck to choke. So if you have a company, you are cucked. They got you, you know, because that's where they they get you. Direct of a company, you know, that's where they get you. Individuals are the most free, um, and that's where you can fight back at the individual level, that's we can fight back the most. And that's why property rights defense group is focused on the individual and not the corporates, because that's where you can be most effective. Mass non-compliance is the most effective way to do this. Um, we are, you know, uh a large group of citizens in this country, and there are they are few. Um, and that's effectively mass non-compliance, is how you fight this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm I'm always uh sadly reminded about how easy it is for the few to control the many. Uh, I mean, history is just absolutely covered in those examples, uh, and it just it repeats over and over. So you just as a matter of interest, I I went and did a quick uh look at um what the effect of that 6102 executive order in the US was back in the 30s. Um, yeah, just for people that maybe aren't familiar, uh in the US in the 1930s, the government made it illegal to hold gold, physical gold, and it was an executive order 6102. And uh I just went and had a look to try and figure out has anyone worked out what the actual level of compliance was back then? I mean, they didn't have the mass surveillance that we have today, and everything's digital and it's so easy to track. Um, so back then the estimates are that round about only 20 to 25 percent of the privately held gold was actually surrendered. Um I must caveat that they did make some allowances for um uh industrial uses and rare coins and yeah, yeah. No, they had a threshold, uh uh spot on. Um, and up to $100 um in the day as well. So I'm not sure what a hundred dollars in the game.
SPEAKER_02Four ounces of gold, basically, because it was $25 that they told the peg price you have to come and you get back. So they gave you a threshold of of four ounces. Um, I doubt they'll give you a threshold of four BTC today.
SPEAKER_01Um, I think they'll give us a threshold of a hundred bucks. I mean, why complicated? They did a hundred dollars in the US in the 30s, one out of 100 ran in South Africa today, you know. Um, I'm sure I guys will think is pretty reasonable. But so uh I I'm actually wondering how well this is going to work. I mean, there is a thing to be said for okay, go make your laws. The second part of that is well, go and enforce those same laws. Uh, how how do you guys think this could possibly be enforced?
SPEAKER_02Well, they make it they make it pretty clear in the regulations how they plan on enforcing it. So enforcement is they have stipulated that there are enforcement agents are not just police
Enforcement At Airports And Homes
SPEAKER_02officers, it's customs agents, it's border control agents. It's a very, very wide net of enforcement they've stated. And this is where it gets really crazy. They can force you to if they have um suspicion that you have to turn over private keys. So if they basically the three of us are screwed now because we've talked about Bitcoin and talked about this stuff. Every time we fly through an airport, they can have say suspicion and search all our stuff and detain us and make our lives misery, you know? Um, so that's how they're gonna enforce it. Then it's they don't have to get a court order, warrantless, so warrantless search and seizure, um, which is you know, uh, that's just like going back to apartheid. Um it goes directly in contravention of the constitution. Uh they can deprive you of your property, deprive you of your privacy, um, and deprive you of your your freedom of association, you know. Uh so there's just the the the whole thing is just like an Orwellian nightmare, but they that's how they'll plan on enforcing it. Um, and once again, it's the peasants, I hate to use that term, but the peasants who are under the threshold will be okay because they're not the ones interfacing with with these enforcement agents. But when you cross a border and you fly somewhere, that's where you interface with them, and that's where they get you. And and airports are Orwellian nightmares already, as it is, you know, flying into countries you like not really in the country, and then there's in this like international zone, yeah, where laws potentially can be you know not be applied. Um, and this happens all over the all over the world all the time. So yeah, it's like uh it's it's it gets pretty dark. Um, and I guess what they what they're betting on is that there's not that many people who have crypto or gold in South Africa. So they can speak like, okay, maybe it's only like five percent of the population that are gonna be upset about this. And of that five percent, only one percent are gonna be above the threshold. So really it's only like 50,000 people, they're gonna be really irate about this, and that's how they divide and conquer. Um, yeah. So that's probably the the route they're gonna go.
SPEAKER_01So just going back to that US example of the 6102 executive order, uh, I mean, the the fines that they issued there, so they basically relied on voluntary cooperation. And I think it's fair to say that's what the current guys are gonna do with these draft regulations. They they make the fines, uh, they want to scare you into complying. So, in the case of that US example, the fines there were up to $10,000 or 10 years in prison, which is a whole lot more than I think what uh the South African regulations are. I mean, they're talking about five years in prison and a million rand, I know the million rand goes up to the value of the asset or something like that as well. So um it's just it's obviously uh the regulations say what they can do, but how do they actually do it realistically? Um, I mean, if you've just said at the beginning of this conversation that regulations are supposed to go through some sort of constitutional check before they even get uh put up for comments so they don't waste everybody's time with dumb ideas, but they don't do that.
SPEAKER_02Um that's not that's not constitutionally mandated at all. I'm saying it should be. Oh, stop this kind of bullshit, but it's definitely not presently no.
SPEAKER_01Okay, no, sorry, man, I misunderstood you there. I thought it was a requirement. But yes, to your point, you would think that um uh someone with a brain would say, hey, let's just check this stuff first so we don't embarrass ourselves and our whole department. Maybe like the AR guys. Uh what was that one? You know, writing AR regs and they used AR to write the AR regs, and you know, uh anyway. Um interesting. But uh just coming back to my points is that they tell you all these things they can do or they will are prepared to do, but can they actually do it? They can do some of it, definitely. I mean, if everyone has voting accidents, what then?
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Like, this is the thing, like, and and there's been a lot of on Twitter I've seen a lot of this, like um of people saying, Lo, Bitcoin was built for this. I'm like, Yes, Bitcoin was built for this. Bitcoin will be fine, Bitcoin gives you the tools to be able to avoid this, but the South African citizens who are caught up in the crossfire of this will not be. And that's the thing. The real impact here is like your your neighbor, who's like a 65-year-old woman that you help get into Bitcoin, and she's self-casting her Bitcoin, it's done really well for her. Her retirement is looking a lot better than what it was before. She's the one caught up in this, and now all of a sudden she's like, shit, I'm gonna be turned into a criminal. So, like, you know, she doesn't want to go to a South African jail, no one wants to go to South African jail, but like that's the that's how the real human impact of this is that like the individuals get caught up in the crossfire of this. So, look, people like us are in a different position because we understand self-custody and have been working on self-custody for long a long time now. I mean, Hadman's told me his Bitcoin origin story of how when he first got into Bitcoin, he had to you know to download Bitcoin Core, um, and took obviously four days, five days, you know, to do all of that. And he was like, Am I being scattered? Like, what is going on here? So, like, but to go through that process, people don't have to do that anymore, it's way easier now. But what the point I'm making is that like we understand self-custody um and the free power that that gives you. And like you, if you have done your your backups correctly and you've got your OPSEC down, you don't have to have a Bitcoin wallet on your phone or your PC or even 12 words in your head. Like your Bitcoin can exist everywhere and nowhere at the same time. And unless they're gonna physically torture you, how are they gonna even find out about where these 12 words are, right? So there's obviously ways to push back against this and make enforcement just completely non non feasible. Um, and if they do. Want to enforce it to that level, they have to get become way worse than the apartheid government was in terms of like taking away people's rights and and um you know just just mass incarceration and torture and all of that. And I don't think the ANC is willing to do that because I don't think I think their grip on power is tenuous at best. Um, you know, the the level of kind of pushback that'll produce. I don't think they're willing to go there. So you can call their bluff basically. But yes, if you get caught up in the middle of this as an individual
Non-Compliance And Practical Self-Custody
SPEAKER_02on the enforcement side, like it's you're not gonna have a good time. So it's best to try to stop this stuff before it even happens because we can save people a lot of pain and anguish. Um, yeah, like I said, like Bitcoin is the best tool you have to fight back against this. I mean, good luck to the gold guys. I mean, I empathize with your position. You self-custody in gold, you know, they're gonna come to your house, they're gonna get you gold, or they're gonna go to the vault service that you use your your vault your gold at and the vault will happily hand it over because government will scare them into it, you know, they have to keep their license. Um so yeah, Bitcoin's the best route you have to be able to push back against this, but uh it's gonna be ugly.
SPEAKER_00Can I um jump in there with uh with a few comments? Um I think uh people who take the line of argument that Bitcoin will be fine um is dumb. Uh it's a horrible thing to say because uh yeah, Bitcoin will be fine. Obviously, that's not the point of this. The point of this is uh that 95% of people that was on onboarded to Bitcoin in the last five years was given a blink wallet and was told, hey, here's some sats, go and spend it at pick and pay. Um, which is fantastic and it's a great, great, uh has been a great onboarding experience. But um, you know, what what happens if Blink is forced to pull out of South Africa and all those hundreds of people that you onboarded open up their phone one day and and and try to open the Blink app because you know they they they they put a few extra rands in there and that that started growing and they were quite excited about this. And they were slowly but surely starting this journey of learning about Bitcoin, and then one day they open up and the Blink app does want to open because they've been they've been um you know they've been blocked from from opening Blink. Nobody nobody I know has onboarded a new person to uh self-custody Bitcoin on day one in the last three to four years. Um as far as I can tell, most of that has happened with Blink or well, mostly Blink, actually. And I'm not saying Blink will do this, but I mean, you know, depending on how bad it gets, they might have to say, look, as a company, we can't afford to you know operate in a country where where this is the situation. So who knows? And and those kinds of repercussions will will have a huge impact on on people and could set back you know the progress we've made over the last four years by you know it could set us back way before that. You know, it it could affect it could affect all our favorite Bitcoin onboarding tools. Um you know, so that's that's a horrible and I've I I had I had a sort of a friendly argument with someone about this, um, who said that yeah, but Bitcoin will be fine. And I'm said you're you're being you're being very self-centered here because you're thinking about Bitcoin from your perspective, and yeah, I will be fine, and one or two people that I know will be fine, but the vast majority of people that I got into Bitcoin won't be fine, and so you're only going to say that if you're thinking about it from your own perspective and your own cypherpunk um practices that you've been, you know, religiously practicing uh with perfect privacy and never talking to anyone about Bitcoin unless it's on a signal group where you're totally anonymous and blah blah blah, yeah, then you'll be fine. But Brew, that's not the real world. Like that's not even the real world of new people to Bitcoin. Um, so anyway, I just think it's uh it it could it could have it could have really bad uh implications, and I will assume that unless somebody fights back against this, it will have really bad implications because the ANC government doesn't give a flying fuck about the people in this country. You only have to look at all the corruption that have gone down in the last, you know, well, I wasn't gonna say 10 to 15 years, but you can narrow that down to the last year, and it's still gonna give you more than enough examples. And so obviously these regulations aren't about protecting people, because if it was, then they would start with um they would start with the people that are stealing um stealing the money that could be applied elsewhere. So it's it's about it's about control and it's about um it's about power and control. And I uh I think that if it's allowed to go through, I I hope that there's um you know, as Ricky said, there's there's this group of people that are trying to fight back, and I hope that that we manage, but but if we don't, and no one else does, then if these if these things go through, it's gonna have disastrous um implications. And also just also want to add to that that um in two in 2024, um I I replied to um somebody who was asked at the Kenya, the Africa Bitcoin conference was held in Kenya that year, and uh one of these influencer types was asked which country in Africa is handling crypto and bitcoin regulations the best, and our answer was South Africa, uh, because South Africa had just published some new regulations then. Um and I I I I replied to that post and I said, Look, if you if you go and read about what they say they want to do, uh it's very clear that we're on a collision course here. What we want is freedom, uh ultimately. Uh Bitcoin is a tool for freedom. It's not uh it's a means to an end, it's not the end in and of itself. The the end is freedom. Bitcoin is a tool towards that, and and the people that run this country, at least in the AMC, they are definitely not interested in freedom for the people, um, which is ironic because they that's kind of kind of what they were built up around. But um, you know, through years and years and years of communist indoctrination, I guess, you know, they they've started buying into the idea that the way you free people is by controlling them. I don't know. Um so it's kind of it's kind of expected from a character perspective. And so it I don't want to say that it's all very predic predictable, but you can safely assume that where they are going is total control. Uh and we can just hope and pray they don't get there and do whatever we can to make sure they don't get there. And hopefully more people hopefully more people wake up and and join that effort. Because otherwise we're all a little fucked.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, to to echo what Herman's saying there, like about the Bitcoin thing, like if Bitcoin can still be used globally, but everyone around the world is being persecuted who uses it, what use is Bitcoin really then? You know, if you have to take such massive risks to use it, it's gonna hamstring adoption so so massively. Um it's obviously gonna be created like a massive black market, and and the black market will thrive and and it might win that way. But like the pain and suffering that will happen along the way is gonna be extreme. Um and maybe that's their play, right? Maybe that's the authoritarian tyrant's play is like let's make it as painful as possible for everyone to try to use this and we'll force them into our controls central digital central bank digital currency hellscape. And that's ultimately what I think this is about because the war on Bitcoin is a war on cash, it's the same thing. Like them saying you can't peer-to-peer someone is them saying it's a it's making cash illegal because Bitcoin is digital cash, right? Um, sorry, Roger Burr. Um, and so that's really what these what this is about. Like, how do you stop people trading amongst each other because you want to tax every single transaction? And tax, in my opinion, is just a humiliation ritual. Because if they can print the money, why are we paying tax? That's a question I have for any politician in this country. If governments, if Reserve Bank can print money to pay for things, why are we paying tax? And to which they'll say, Oh no, but if we print the money, that's gonna create hyperinflation. Okay, so why are you printing money then? Oh, okay, we get an inflation target two percent. Okay, so two percent robbing you of two percent of your time and money, is that acceptable? So having that level of theft is fine. That's like saying, cool, we're not gonna prosecute shoplifting because it's small crime, you know. So the the the point I'm making here is that like, okay, so so if you're gonna tax us, you shouldn't have a central bank, you shouldn't be printing money. But if you if you want to print money, then we shouldn't be paying tax, then you're gonna have hyperinflation, which means we should have Bitcoin anyway. So it's kind of like a you know circular logic. At the end of the day, it comes back to what Hartman is saying, it's all about control. Um, these people just want to control you. The worst of us are trying to control you. That's really what it comes comes down to. Um yeah, so I think we need to yeah, people need to organize, get involved, and this isn't just about Bitcoin and crypto. There's millions of people in this country right now who have never used Bitcoin, they've never used crypto, they've never used gold. But your kids are gonna do, your kids are gonna need it. Um because the the road to serfdom is paved with with printed money. You know, that's how this is how this happens. If they keep printing money and if you let them win, this and the central bank can just keep doing what it wants to do, you are gonna need a lifeboat at some point, or else you're gonna live in a hyper-inflationary hellscape using a central bank digital currency, eating the bugs, living in the pod, earning nothing, and being unhappy. And if not you, your kid, that's gonna be your kid's life. So do it for your kids. We need to preserve people's right to trade amongst each other freely and to store their time and value in something that respects their time, which in our opinion obviously is Bitcoin, not the czar shit coin. Um, so yeah, if they win this fight, your kids are gonna have a really bad time. So if you have kids, think about your kids. And if you don't have kids, have kids.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm with you there. Uh more kids, we need more kids. We need more Bitcoin podcasts, but we also need more kids. So keep on going for it.
SPEAKER_02Um,
Why Corporates And Politicians Won’t Save You
SPEAKER_02nothing focuses your time and energy and and and brings life into focus. I'm a recent I'm a new dad here. I've only joined the club recently. Um, but yes, nothing makes you care more about the future than than having kids.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I've got two daughters. Um Eldest is 21 now. Uh, she had her 21st couple of weeks ago, and she's now joined our business. And I'm actually sitting in my youngest daughter's apartment in Joburg. She's studying architecture. So uh thank goodness we've gotten through that whole uh baby nappy uh daycare school routine. Um so it gets harder before it gets better, Ricky. Um when the kids are when they hit high school, that gets a bit easier. Uh I always say when they can feed themselves, dress themselves, and wipe their own backsides, then you've crossed a major hurdle right there. Mine can do none of those three things.
SPEAKER_02But it's proof of work, you know? Um it's all proof of work, and like it is a great experience. And I don't want my daughter to live in a in a I don't want my daughter to be a slave. You know, I think most parents want that for their kids.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, 100%. I mean, it's it's easy to take the blackpool uh view and say, hey, well, you know, this is about control, and if South Africa is getting this hectic, uh, and South Africa is like actually a pimple on the arse of the world in terms of GDP, uh, surely the others are going to uh be even more um uh there's more money elsewhere. Let me just put it that way. So uh the controls will be tighter. But you know, at the end of the day, you know, people created this mess, and people will be the ones to get us out of this mess. And I just want to echo what you said earlier, Ricky. It's not the institution or the corporate that's gonna get you out of this thing, it's individual people. Um at the end of the day, um the the government can do and say what they want, but they are supposed to serve, um, they are supposed to serve the citizens of the country. And I think as the government starts clamping down harder and harder, the citizens are gonna start getting the helling with it more and more. I mean, already you can see it. Um, I actually attended a funeral, um, Shane. My um my maid who had been with us for 20 22 years, uh, she she worked with us before my kids were born. Uh, she passed away. Uh, we went to the funeral. It was in um not, I wouldn't call it a township, but it was definitely uh a sort of predominantly black area. And it was quite cool to see the guys had just blocked the entire street off, put tents up in the middle of the street, basically screw the traffic. We were having a funeral. Um, but it was interesting to sit there and to listen to the people and and hear the guys talking. And in fact, one of the ministers got up and he had a lot to say. I I know funerals are often seen as an occasion for a bit of a political jab. Um, but it was interesting to see firsthand guys talking about the issues that are uh plaguing the country at the moment. And it's they're pointing out it's not a color issue, it's a character issue, um, which was a nice way to sort of put it. Um so, yes, I mean, revolt and revolution, somebody said um we're only four days away. Civilization is four days away from total collapse. Um, because you've only got four days worth of food in your fridge. If things go to hell, and uh after those four days, you're gonna come out look for food, where you're gonna find it. Well, the same place your neighbor's gonna go looking for it, and then it's gonna be guns and bullets at some point. Um so I think our uh civilization that we pride ourselves on is pretty fragile. Uh, it can be taken down quite easily. Uh, but having said that, these governments that we put in place that we think are all powerful, uh, can be taken down just as easily. There have been examples around the world of citizens just marching into the parliaments, taking the oaks and throwing them out. Sometimes they threw them out, sometimes they killed them, then threw them out. Uh, but it that is a very real likelihood. That is just as likely like two years ago. That's just as likely to happen as uh in fact, it's more likely that that will happen the longer these guys keep on going and pushing. So uh yeah, this is just a shout-out there, well not a shout-out, a word out maybe to the uh our overlords. Um there are more of us than there are of you, and um, yeah, you can be taken out. And sorry, something just I would I would like to say removed from office along democratic purposes when I say takeout. I'm not sure I'm not uh advocating that.
SPEAKER_02And and something else to point out here, like we've been chilling on the ANC and and rightly so, but like the DA is just as bad. Every politician, like politicians are not gonna save you, guys. Like, if you're not disillusioned with politics yet, like I have a couch full of dollars to sell you on a game farm and Cyril's house. Um like politicians are not gonna save you. The DA are just as bad. They, if anything, they you know they're more efficient, which makes it more terrifying. And they're globalists, you know. And at the end of the day, this whole push is globalism, right? This whole thing to take away the individual's rights and push as much power up the chain. That's what globalism is all about. They don't want localism, they don't want people to be, you know, managing their own affairs in as small a group and geographical area as possible. They want top-down globalism is just communism, you know. Um, so the DA is not going to save you. I haven't seen the DA comment anything about this, I haven't seen them come out and speak out against us at all. Um despite us having uh Helen Zilla at the adopting Bitcoin conference two years ago. Um, despite us having Jimmy Money at the Bitcoin conference, none of them have spoken out against us. So you have to assume that's some kind of tacit approval. Um, so yeah, like the don't rely on politicians. At the end of the day, like this this is the individual who's got to take back the power here. The politician's not gonna save you. Um, so you've got to get active. Um, and politicians are just they just lie, man. They just lie, they they steal, they cheat, the worst of us. Don't place any faith in them. Fuck them, they're assholes.
SPEAKER_01So uh I've just got one final question for you guys, uh, maybe more of an observation, or maybe it's a question. Um, you know, in the past couple of years, Bitcoin adoption has seen has really accelerated in through South Africa with, you know, pick and pay coming on board, the money badger guys, you know, the seven or eight hundred thousand stores that are now unable to see it. Uh, do you think this might have like we're almost victims of our own success here? Like these draft rigs are like a knee-jerk reaction to a government that suddenly has seen hell. In a short space of time, these guys have gotten organized and they are trading outside of our control. Do you do you think that this is now the the response to the amazing work that's happened in this space?
SPEAKER_00That's my question. Honestly, I don't think this is a response to anything. I I just think this is the true character of these people coming out. Um, I that that's that was kind of the point I was trying to make earlier, is that um this is what they want. And regardless of what, you know, even if even if we had seen half the amount of adoption that we did in the last two years or a quarter of it, I think the response would have still been the same because this is essentially what they said they were gonna do two or three years ago. They they they they literally said um said as much. And I remember reading some papers that was published by the what's the what are they called? It's this group of uh it's the Reserve Bank and the Treasury and a bunch of other government entities. They have this intergovernmental working group. Um, and I remember reading some of the papers that they published um in 2023, I think I can't remember, but um I remember reading that and I was like, holy shit, we're on a collision course here. There's no way they're gonna let this um exist. I mean, again, it will exist whether they want to or not, but there's no way they're not gonna fight this tooth and nail. So I think this is just their their philosophy and their ideology coming out. And if I could say one other thing, um, I'll try and do it as quick as I can. But um, and this is kind of optimistic in a way. Um, but I think I think it's clear that the ANC-controlled government will do whatever um to uh to implement their ideology, uh, even if it even if it costs them votes, um, that's how indoctrinated they are. And this this was demonstrated with the last election. They uh the the president signed laws um just before the the previous election that that cost the ANC votes, um, and predictably so. And so you have to ask yourself the question: well, how ideologically indoctrinated with this communist ideology do you have to be to sacrifice your own voter base and actually create a situation where you might end up losing power um for the sake of implementing your ideology? Um, and that's actually quite optimistic in a way, because I know I I I don't trust politicians, and I don't think politicians are there to save us. And I I totally agree with Ricky on that. And I think ultimately we ultimately at some future point we're gonna live in a system, whether that's me or my kids or their kids or their grandkids, ultimately we're gonna live in a system that looks very different from what we have now because bureaucrats making laws and some office, you know, that's thousands of kilometers away from where you live, is a system that just doesn't work, it's not sustainable. And so it's gonna collapse under its own weight at some point. And I'm excited to see what comes next. It might be a very long time before that happens. But until that happens, politics is the is the way of the world. Um, you know, and I think in the short run, this can potentially, I'm not not not referring to the draft regulation specifically when I say this. When I I mean when I say this, I mean the ANC's obsession with their communist ideology can actually create a positive um feedback loop where whatever comes next, whatever politician comes up next, is going to look at this and say, I better not, I better not do that, because that um that leads to uh me losing elections. I mean the ANC has experienced a a collapse in its support, and I don't I don't see them recovering. Um, you know, there were some ways in which they may have recovered, um, but they seem hellbent um on executing on their ideology. And I think it's a small miracle that most of the country doesn't actually buy into that. Um I don't know how, because one would expect the opposite, um, you know, with the with the difficult conditions that so many people live under. Under, you'd expect a sort of a populist uprising of some sort. So I'm kind of surprised that more people don't support a political party that wants to confiscate everything. But they don't. And it's it's it's a small miracle that we live in a country like that. And whatever comes after the ANC, there's a chance. I'm not obviously saying this is going to happen, but there is a chance that uh that all this all these shenanigans um actually lead to something more more positive in the outcome. Um uh whatever follows this. Um I don't know. I I'm also I'm also sometimes optimistic um as a as a sort of a pragmatic approach. So I kind of have to assume an optimistic perspective, otherwise I just can't go about my day. Um so maybe maybe that's uh maybe that's the mistake I'm making. But uh I I do see an optimistic path out of this in the sort of the short to medium term. I should say the medium term. The short term, I think these regulations are gonna pass, and I think it's gonna be a tough fight, but I do think that it's what it's doing is it's showing the true colors, and that's always a good thing, um, because people can then people can then respond to that. You know, you've seen the same with the situation in um uh Gaza and Israel, for example, you know, public support for that has just fallen through the floor. Um, and it's because people are seeing uh what these guys are, you know, they're seeing them for their true colours. It's just this insane genocidal mentality where we're gonna kill tens of thousands of people and then we're gonna come up with all these ridiculous rationalizations and we're gonna blame it all on social media. Like, no, dude, that's not social media's fault, it's your fault. The problem is that you've revealed your true colors, whereas before you could more successfully hide it. So anything that the ANC does that reveals their true colors, um, which is a communist ideology that we that wants to control everything, uh, anything they do that reveals that that's what they really want ultimately leads to a better outcome because normal people don't want that. Uh, you know, and normal people might not care enough to do something about this, but if you ask a normal person on the street, hey, do you want some bureaucrat and pretoria to control every aspect of your life? No one's gonna say yes to that. Um, so yeah, I I think it could lead to a positive outcome, but we'll see.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, like the only the only point I'll differ with Arman on on this is that I think that regulations are probably not gonna pass. Or if they do pass, they're gonna be challenged in court and they're gonna get struck down because they're so poorly constructed. They've followed the process they've followed has been so half-baked, it's full of so many holes, um, and it's being pushed back on in a very, very big way, probably more than I've seen anything being pushed back on um in a long time in civil society. So a lot of people are upset about this. So I think I think we've definitely got a good fighting chance to do this, and that's exactly why we've formed
How To Back The Legal Fight
SPEAKER_02Property Rights Defense Group. Because if we didn't think we could win this, what's the point in spending so much time and effort on this? So it's anyone listening to this who wants to get involved, go to propertyrightsdefense.org, um, send us some Bitcoin. Um, we accept other crypto too, um, we and it's all self-custodial. So, in flagrant disregard for what these regulations are promulgating, we are doing self-custody and we're accepting. I mean, it's still not illegal yet. So um send us some Bitcoin that'll go directly to the to fighting um this fight and going to the legal fund. And if there's any law firms out there that want to accept Bitcoin directly to represent us, please get in contact. It'll save us having to support the RAND by going through RANs first. Um, we'd much rather just pay in Bitcoin directly. Um, and then if any people want to get involved, reach out to us on our website. There's an email address, reach out to us, tell us your skills. I actually just had someone reach out to me right now during this interview who's got some very useful skills we can we can use. So if you um can contribute and volunteer your time in any way, please please get hold of us. Um, yeah, we we take the fight to the government and we represent the people on this. Um, yeah, and it's something we do not because we want to do it or because there's any financial goal or financial benefit for us at all, and this is all voluntary. Uh, we do this because it is our civic duty. Um, and essentially we've been, you know, we've been called up to do this. Um yeah, so get involved.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I just want to clarify. I I agree with you. I think they will pass, but they will be challenged in court. That's that's what I meant. Um, I don't think they'll pass to the extent that um the regulations will pass and then be implemented. I think they'll they'll pass because you know that's probably what's going to happen after the public comment period closes. Um they don't have to go through parliament, there's no voting on it. Um so they'll pass, but they'll be challenged in court. But but but I think the more important point, and that's what you're saying as well, is that we can't assume that they'll be challenged in court because somebody has to actually go out and do that. And that's the that's the thing about these things. And I I had the same experience um after the conference in Cape Town this year, which is the point I was trying to make at the conference too, is like it's all great to assume that these things will happen, but but they don't. They don't just happen, they happen because somebody decided to go out there and make it happen. Um and so you could say, yeah, they will pass, but someone will challenge in a court. Yeah, but who's that someone? Uh you know, why and and why is that someone not you? You know what I mean? Because it's gotta be it's gotta be someone that does it, and if no one does it, then they will pass. That's that's the point. Like if if if everybody assumes that someone else will do it, um then they will come into effect and that'll that'll suck.
SPEAKER_02To quote Thomas Jefferson, ma'am, you have a republic if you can keep it, and that's what it comes down to. You have to keep it, and the price of freedom is eternal vigilance because these fucking commies are always trying to steal your shit. That is a maxim as true as anything else. They want to rob you blind, they want to control you, and you've got to fight for your your freedom. It's eternal vigilance, and that's what this is.
SPEAKER_01Awesome, guys. Well, uh, I've kept everyone long enough, we're slightly over time, but uh I do just want to um emphasize the uh property rights defense um group. I will post the links to the site in the show notes. Uh and just encourage everybody, please go in there, uh, read up, educate yourself more on what this is about. Think the far extremes that this could be taken to. Don't just take the middle of the road view. Think uh if someone uh, if your worst enemy got hold of this regulation, what could he possibly do with it? Um use that as a good way to filter what you think about it. And if you're in agreement that this should not be happening, uh please do go and contribute. There are multiple ways on the website to do that. So just want to point everybody to that. And shout out again, Ricky, uh, and all the guys involved there. Um, there's been a lot of people, uh, a lot of names. I can't list them all. Um, but uh it's been amazing to just watch uh the movement happen so quickly and be organized. So well done, guys. It's amazing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thanks. And the guys and girls want to point that out. Um it's been it's been great to see everyone get involved, and we've got a crack team around us um that are helping us do all of this. And just the one thing the consequence of what can happen here is that they can kick your door down and come and search your house without a warrant. That's what these what these draft regulations propose. Not just at the airport, but come to your house with guns, point it in your face, and go through your stuff without a warrant. That's what's proposed here.
SPEAKER_00It's wild.
SPEAKER_01Thanks. Sobering stuff there. Um guys, thanks for your time. It's been awesome. Um, look forward to chatting again. I'll get this out as soon as possible. I know we only have a few days left for comments, um, so I want to get it out quick. So just help spread the word as much as we can. Um thanks
Final Warnings And Closing
SPEAKER_01everyone. Nice to see you guys. Um a quick uh final comment from everybody. Uh, I've said mine, I won't say any more. Um, final comment, please, guys.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, please go to propertyrightsdefense.org. Um, send us some Bitcoin. We take altcoins too. If you want, we got a we got a plug in there so you can send them to USDT or whatever you want to send us, some shibit inu. Um, it all gets converted to Bitcoin, though. FYI, we keep it in Bitcoin. Um, and yeah, if you if you can donate money to us, that's fantastic. We need all the help we can get. We've got a uh tracker that shows all the donations we've got. And then shout out to the BDC Pay Server team for making this all possible. Um, we couldn't do any of this without BDC Pay Server, free and open source software. Fantastic. And uh, if you've got skills that you can contribute, reach out to us via email, get involved. We need as many people as possible to help us and do it for the kids.
SPEAKER_00Uh I'll just say um uh it's not a conspiracy, it's human nature. So stop calling people conspiracy theorists for talking about this stuff. It's just it's human nature, man. That's that's what they do.
SPEAKER_01Cool. Well then, guys, Masters, uh, thanks for your time. Um have a great day further. Cheers, everyone. Okay, thanks again. Cheers, everyone. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Cheers, cheers, and then we're gonna be able to