Ep. 33 - Exposing the Florida Shuffle: Accountability in Addiction Treatment with Dave Aronberg

In this episode of Resilient Butterfly, Pam Feinberg speaks with Dave Aronberg about the “Florida Shuffle”—a term used to describe fraudulent and predatory practices within the addiction treatment industry. This conversation explores addiction treatment fraud, regulatory oversight, and the urgent need for accountability to protect individuals and families seeking recovery.

The episode honors the legacy of Jamie Daniels, a young man who died from an overdose at the age of 23 while receiving treatment for a substance use disorder (SUD). In response to this tragedy, his parents established the Jamie Daniels Foundation to advocate for ethical reform and provide hope and support to families navigating addiction and recovery.

Together, Pam and Dave examine the intersection of law, public policy, and behavioral healthcare. They discuss how trusted provider networks, care coordination, and treatment navigation help ensure safe, ethical, and effective pathways to recovery. This discussion also highlights the importance of due diligence when selecting treatment providers and the role of cross-sector collaboration in improving outcomes.

Presented by Feinberg Consulting, a leader in complex care coordination, behavioral health consulting, and treatment placement guidance since 1996. Learn more at FeinbergCare.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to the Resilient Butterfly Podcast. My goal is to share inspiring stories of healing and recovery through many diverse approaches and models. Our guests bring incredible lived experiences, insights, andor professional expertise, each with their own unique path. While we highlight and celebrate these stories, our intention is to inform, inspire, and demonstrate resilience and creativity. This podcast does not endorse any one approach. We believe there is more than one way to heal, and we're here to showcase the resilience and possibilities that exist. Welcome back to Resilient Butterfly. I'm your host, Pam Feinberg Griffkin, where we talk with leaders and change makers who are helping reshape the landscape of recovery, justice, and resilience. Today, I'm honored to welcome Dave Ehrenberg. Dave is a former Palm Beach County State Attorney, Harvard educated attorney, a public servant, and co-author of Fighting the Florida Shuffle, a groundbreaking expose on corruption in the addiction treatment industry. Today we'll explore Dave's journey, the causes he has fought for, the victims he's advocated for, and the reforms he helped ignite. Dave, welcome to Resilient Butterfly.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Pam, it's great to be with you. And thank you for having me. I really enjoyed my 12 years as state attorney for Palm Beach County, but in my next chapter as a private lawyer through Dave Ehrenberg Law. So it's great to be with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Thank you. Well, I want to start with you had early advocacy that was not with fighting the Florida shuffle previous that may have led up to your skills, your um ability to uh use resources, and that all went back to some of the work that you did in Washington, D.C. Can you just give us a roadmap of what led you into the what you were able to accomplish for in the state attorney position?

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Well, Pam, I got my start in fighting the opioid epidemic when I was a young assistant attorney general working for the Attorney General of Florida, Bob Butterworth, and he called me into his office one day, handed me a magazine article, and said, Check out this new drug called Oxycontin. I don't want it to hurt us here in Florida like it is uh like it has in Appalachia. And that's how I got my start. I researched it and then opened up an investigation into Purdue Pharma. What I found was that the opioid epidemic was totally man-made. It was entirely preventable. It was never inevitable. It was created based on corporate malfeasance and professional greed and political apathy and regulatory failure. So I then worked with the attorney general. The attorney general, Pam Bondi, appointed me as her drug czar, and because I ran for attorney general in 2010 against her to be attorney general, and then she won the race, and then she hired me as drug czar, and together we shut down the pill mills. But because you you close down the supply of these drugs doesn't mean the demand goes away. And from there, people move to illegal heroin, and then heroin spiked with fennel, and then and then uh to the answer would be drug rehab. But what happens when the well-intended laws like the Affordable Care Act, the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Mental Health Parity Act, HIPAA, they all combined to help people at the same time, their excesses have created a situation where families aren't aware that their loved one has been trafficked down to Florida and kept in a perpetual state of relapse rather than recovery, where failure is more profitable than sobriety. That's the Florida shuffle, and that's what I went against, I fought against, because when the answer to our opioid epidemic is more money for rehab, then what happens when the rehabs are part of the problem? What happens when the money is the problem? So we worked with the rehab industry, the good players to clean it up, and that's uh little nutshell of my book, Fighting the Florida Shuffle, which you thankfully mentioned.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

That's a very, very short piece of obviously a very uh long, enduring process that you were had to do and were very successful in doing. And I'm sure have been able to save hundreds of lives. Could be thousands of lies. Actually, I would say more than like thousands of lies. But let's go back into the first chapter. You mentioned a girl named Sasha and Jamie Daniels, who Jamie is a father, Ken Daniels is a friend of my husband and myself. Um I was very uh close to what was going on, what had happened after the fact. Um, didn't know what was going on during the situation. And Sasha's story is heartbreaking in regard to Kenny Chapman taking advantage. It's it's not even just it's human cruelty what happened in his sober living. So what was it Sasha's story that her ability to go to the federal to the to the authorities to tell her story what was had been going on? How did this break open?

SPEAKER_01 5:37

Sasha's story was so egregious. It was reported about in the Sun Sentinel, and we started our book with it because it's hard to believe that our well-intended federal laws have created an environment where you have a guy like Kenny Chapman, who's like the Pablo Escobar of the drug treatment industry, the worst of the worst, who had these sober homes where women were given free rent in exchange for forcing them to have sex with strangers or steal purses from Worth Avenue. And it was like a house of horrors. It was a sober home brothel. And local governments could do very little about it because of the well-intended Americans with Disabilities Act, which protects sober homes from mandatory inspections and registration. Uh, and that shielded those like Kenny Chapman, who were doing severe harm to their residents. And then you have the system in place because of the Affordable Care Act that has no lifetime limits or yearly limits on how many times you can go through rehab. And the rehab is funded on an old school fee-for-service reimbursement method, which is the more services you provide, the more money you make. So Kenny Chapman was making money hand over fist, exploiting these well-intended laws. He knew that his sober homes, which had its doors and windows sealed shut while the people in there were forced into human trafficking. He knows he knew that they could not be regulated by the local governments or even the HOAs. And he knew that he would get money from the outpatient treatment centers where he would send the individuals who lived in his house who were in the throes of addiction, he would send them there for treatment and get a kickback. And that's how they were able to live there for free. And then he would get more money by this human trafficking. And it's just one horrific situation that was incentivized by well-intended federal laws. That's why I started it. And because this woman who escaped and was able to testify against him, and he was then sentenced to 27 and a half years in federal prison, because I wanted to show that this could be anyone's daughter, sister, wife, I changed her name because for anonymity purposes, but I called her Sasha, which is the name of my wife, because I wanted to just it it is a powerful reminder to me and to everyone who knows me that this could happen to anyone. We should not look at them as a statistic. We should not look at these victims as someone who deserved it because of a moral hazard. These people are lives worth saving.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

I want to uh mention also the HIPAA laws and the fact that when someone's over 18, therapists, treatment centers cannot speak with families, even if the they're being paid by the family to take care of them. And that even in the uh uh when someone is on heroin or fentanyl and or or a combination of thereof, it is um at someone is at risk to harm themselves. They're risking and they're the harm to themselves, they're already harming themselves, let alone maybe killing themselves. And yeah, that's not even accepted under those circumstances. Can anything be done in the future in regard to this? Because I find that this is one of the biggest uh I don't want to say peas. It's yeah, you know, as a as a mother who and as a uh provider that we can't have those conversations with people that need us or families can't have conversations, that's a problem.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Okay, that you know what um this is another issue that people are not talking enough about. And I mentioned in my book, but you can write a whole nother book on HIPAA. HIPAA has protected our personal medical information, but it was never intended to protect human traffickers who take your kids. These are kids who are over 18, who are still on your insurance, 18 to 26, still on your insurance, and they're in rehab and you're paying for it, and they get lured away by a broker who gives them a one-way free plane ticket to Florida. So instead of being in the rehab near you, now they're on a flight to Palm Beach and they're caught in the Florida shuffle. And when you call to try to find out where your child is, the rehabs do not tell you. They say, HIPAA, I can't tell you. You're like, I'm paying for it. She's on my insurance. Sorry, can't help you.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

I cannot confirm or deny.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

I cannot confirm or deny. That is not what HIPAA was intended to do. It was not intended to shield people who would do your family wrong, who would hurt your kids. And you may say, well, uh, they're adults, they can just call you. These are people in the throes of addiction. They and they may not have access to a phone to call you. And their brains have changed. And so HIPAA is actually contributing to the problem, even though it's done a lot of good for a lot of people. You can say the same about the Affordable Care Act. It's done a lot of good for a lot of people. But when you reimburse on an old school fee-for-service basis, the bad providers get paid more, the good providers get paid less. The incentive is to over-treat and to keep people in an endless cycle of relapse rather than recovery. And the opposite should be true, where the incentive should be for the good providers to get people well. I can come up with a better formula right away. In fact, you and I, we can come up, sit in a room for an hour, and have a better reimbursement formula than the one the Affordable Care Act, Affordable Care Act uses, which is just give more money to the provider that provides the most services. That breeds corruption.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

And you have willing victims here because you have people with the brain disease of addiction. And when you're offering them free rent and free benefits and to stay in relapse and recovery, they're like, right.

SPEAKER_00 11:37

And and and incentivizing them to relapse, you know, being able to, you know, giving them the money, drugs, whatever to do that is so, as you say, egregious in many, many, many ways. It's inhumane. Um unfortunately, I've been um in the medical field for uh since 1977. So I have seen the medical treatment, mental health treatment, addiction treatment, all of that in the way that um has been in the medical field, for instance, under Medicare, you're well aware that if you go back to the hospital within 30 days with the same diagnosis, the hospitals are not reimbursed at the same level of care. And why can't this be put in place for mental health and addiction treatment? It is harder treatment, mental health up for sure. But yet to have somebody keep going around and round and round in treatment and having recidivism is right. You know, it it really um yes, there's a whole host of issues with the opioid epidemic, the fact that the pill mills created and they stopped. You got it, he had to stop those pill mills for sure. I remember people standing in line when I started coming down to Florida, and I asked my father-in-law, it was next door to a very legitimate, you know, interior design business. What is this? What are these lines here? This is you know, a pain doctor prescribing for people coming out from out of state, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:22

Exactly. That was the OxyCon Express. You had people with direct flights from Huntington, West Virginia into Fort Lauderdale. Really? How? Because you had people come here to Florida, a race to the bottom because we had the fewest regulations, and they would get the drugs that couldn't get back at home, use, abuse, and then go back home and sell it for a profit. What a great vacation.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

Right, right. And uh, as um people were shut down in Kentucky, then they came here for that. So in you started the task force, the drug task force, the sober live sober living task force. Um, what were the benefits coming out of that?

SPEAKER_01 14:04

The sober woman's task force was unique and still has not really been replicated in the country. And and I wanted that to change. That's why I wrote this book. I wanted people to see that Palm Beach County was able to fix the Florida shuffle. Because until the federal government tweaks the Affordable Care Act, the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Mental Health Parity Act, HIPAA, local governments will continue to fight this fight with one hand tied behind their backs. So I have a roadmap of what Palm Beach County did. We started a Sober Homes Task Force where worked with law enforcement to put handcuffs around the people who were doing others harm, the rogue sober homes and the unscrupulous drug treatment providers, those folks we targeted. At the same time, we wanted to stand up for people with substances disorder and protect them and create a better environment. We cleaned up the industry. We worked with the good players in the industry to clean up the industry because you can't just arrest your way out of this problem. But we did make 121 arrests in a four or five year time frame. And we now have the cleanest, most ethical drug treatment industry anywhere in the country. And so I'm really proud of that. But a big part of the Sober Homes task force was the civilian side, where we had people from the industry who worked with us to suggest changes to the law so that we could improve our law, strengthen them, so that people getting arrested wouldn't just get a slap on the wrist. And we can also do other things that could help rehabilitation and prevention.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

And is the task force ongoing? Does it continue to meet? And what are the future plans for it?

SPEAKER_01 15:40

It's still ongoing. I, you know, I left the state attorney's office last January, and my successor, Alexia Cox, has kept it going. Al Johnson, the head of the task force, is still there. And they have announced uh some very positive statistics of Palmeach County leading the way in the country with the number of opioid overdose deaths taking a dramatic decrease, which is just so rewarding.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

The fact that our efforts really have saved lives. And I don't think there's anything I've done in my life that's been as meaningful as that because you can talk to the families who have been going through this and sometimes you're their only hope. And then when they get their loved one back, it is it's just hard to put in words.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Sure. And there um, why do you think that other parts of the country have not been able to adapt something similar?

SPEAKER_01 16:31

You know, it's a good question. I've always wondered that, but I think it's because of money and priorities. It's hard to get people around the country to focus on this. There's so many other issues that are competing. This isn't the sexiest issue because it takes a while to understand it. I mean, to that's why I published my book here. This is what's going on. You have to really understand that there's a system of incentives that have corrupted the industry or at least encouraged corruption and have led to the demise of way too many people. And unfortunately, there's still a stigma for people who go through substance use disorder. And you have to tell people, no, this could be anyone. These lives are worth saving. And so I just think that the state attorneys around the country, the law enforcement officers, hopefully they read the book and they see this is the roadmap, this is how we can fix the Florida shuffle in our communities, because it's still seen as a niche problem when it really is ubiquitous.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

And kind of the same thing with human trafficking. People think that the uh victims of human trafficking may have uh been, you know, so vulnerable on the streets themselves, they were homeless. But that is not always the truth. There are so many young women who unfortunately may be addicted already and somehow get into that cycle. Can you speak on that?

SPEAKER_01 17:57

Well, human trafficking is a part of the Florida shuffle because you have so many young people. These are young men and women who go through it. And you have people in the throes of addiction and their brains change, and you have predators out there. You have body brokers who get paid to put a head in a bed and to try to lure you down from where you are and to put you in uh in a bed in South Florida. And then the sober homes sometimes are co-ed, which they shouldn't be. And so, yeah, trafficking sadly is part of it. May not always be sex trafficking, it could be labor trafficking, it'd just be moving people around. There's so many horror stories about this. I mean, I write, I have several anecdotes in the book. We have a father who came down to search for his daughter from Long Island. He didn't know that she had been sent down here until finally she called him and he came right down to try to rescue her, but it was too late. By the time he got down here, she had been snatched off the street, and her body was found in a scrub area in Lantana. It's just horrific. We worked with him and my investigators to try to track her down. He walked the streets of some of the worst parts of town, putting out flyers, pictures, and uh risking his own life. And uh just uh it's tragic. Well, now all not all the stories are tragic. Some of them are are hopeful. They're stories of of redemption and rescue. And, you know, we wanted to give people hope that this wasn't all doom and gloom, that there are things being done that have and will continue to save lives.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

What was the first indication that you recall of that this is a big problem?

SPEAKER_01 19:36

The first time I learned about it was when the city leaders of Delray Beach asked me for a meeting to tell me about what was going on. They talked about how these sober homes were popping up everywhere. And there's a need for sober homes. The good sober homes are the ones you don't even know exist. When you're dealing with the millions of Americans in the throes of addiction, you need to have high-quality rehabilitation, drug treatment. And where do they live when they're in outpatient care in a sober home? But then you have flop houses, places that are there just to milk people from their uh of their insurance. And that was what was opening up throughout Delray Beach, which was ground zero for this problem throughout the country. And it was the business leaders who brought this to my attention. And that's how it got on our radar. We looked into it more and they were right. And then we worked with the disability community, the people who stood up for people with substance use disorder. And we're able to bring everyone together. You contrast that with the folks in California who have been really stymied because no one trusts each other. You know, the disability rights community don't trust the League of Cities, they don't trust the politicians, and everyone's at odds thinking that they're all trying to screw each other. And in reality, we're all in this together. We all should have the same motivation to save lives, not to not to discriminate.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

Absolutely. Yeah, we um our company has uh done a lot of work um uh familiar with South K Southern California. Unfortunately, I have a very good friend that she lost her son to this one of the same sober living homes in Southern California 2015. And and I I didn't know the same thing was happening there until his death. And when um my friend showed me the insurance bill, it was$300,000 that had been used in less than a year for his care of in and out. And I know that you know the insurance companies were paying these bills and paying for urine sam, urine culture, not culture, excuse me, urine drug testing and spending and paying like$1,500 for a test, it would be$25. It would be so uh unbelievable that they would actually pass these through. So the insurance companies were complicit as well.

SPEAKER_01 21:57

Insurance companies which will follow You're around and will take a secret video of you dancing the horror at your daughter's bar mitzvah bot mitzvah will be the first ones to pay out when you have an obviously fraudulent charge by a corrupt treatment center. And that was so frustrating.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_01 22:22

I have a chapter in my book about it. There are a number of explanations. One of them is that you have a well-intended law, the Affordable Care Act, that has something called the 8020 rule, which was well intended. It was meant to ensure that 80% of all your healthcare dollars that go into insurance, all your premiums, go back to the policyholder in the form of benefits, not profits. But what happens when you increase the 80% side, when that gets paid out over and over again very easily? Well, the 20% side, the profit side goes up too. So you've incentivized corruption. And when you don't have strong anti-fraud programs, because when workers come, for example, where they'll follow you around and take the secret video, that is a historic, well-organized department they have to go after fraud. But behavioral health is relatively new and they don't have the sophistication to really know hey, uh, we're dealing with a soft science, and maybe the drug tests are now foreboden. You know, it used to be$2,000 for every drug test, and now it's confirmatory drug tests, but now they move it on to genetic testing, like using 23andE to help determine whether you have an addiction. I mean, they the equestrian, they'll try to find other ways. Some of them are legit, others are not. And because it's a soft science, as opposed to how do you fix a broken arm, it's harder to clamp down on the fraud. Sure. And the insurance companies that say, uh, we'll just pay it. We don't get sued that way, and then afterwards we'll claw it back. And if we pay out too much, well, that increases the pot of money for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

And unfortunately, then we have physicians like Dr. Ligati.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

Yeah, yeah. He was he was one of the worst. I wrote about him in the book. Dr. Ligati was the guy who would sign the scripts and you know, all these treatment centers, they needed a doctor in-house, and the corrupted ones knew they could count on Dr. Lugati.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

It's incredible that uh a man, obviously a very sick man, who became a physician and took an oath would do harm. When you take an oath, you do no harm. But um unfortunately, again, the corruption goes widespread. It's many, many places. It was like a whack-a-mole. Um and being able to uh really look at all of this in a whack-a-mole of like, oh my god, this is this, this has come up, and then we've got this. And um, you know, taking urine testing, drug testing, or submitting them to the insurance company when they actually were not even taken in the first place, you know, that I mean this it goes on and on. But to be able to take what happened in Palm Beach County, uh, I'm hoping like you are, that there are other servant uh public servants that can take this information, put together a task forces and come together in different parts of the country that this is going on, Southern California. I understand in Arizona, um, that this is as well. Who else, where else could this be coming up when we have a lot of treatment someplace? You have to be very cautious and judicious. Um and what we do in Feinberg Consulting is we actually look at all the treatment centers and you have a list, a whole uh chapter almost on how do you how do you vet a treatment center in a sober living? And we have those people ourselves, if people want to hire us to do that, and on their own, you have this. If somebody can't afford to ask a consultant to help them, then they can do this on their own. Will you explain some of where where you came up with that?

SPEAKER_01 26:20

Well, we have a chapter in the book, the penultimate chapter, which says how to pick the right treatment center. And the biggest question we get asked is how do we know what a good treatment center in sober home are? Because it's hard to find. You have to, it's not just one gold standard. And I believe in medication-assisted treatment, but you have all these different modules and different ways to treat someone. And so if you're gonna try to find the best place to go, it's good to know the red flags because you're dealing with a relatively deregulated environment. When it comes to sober homes, the Americans with Disabilities Act has made it very hard to regulate those entities. It's much easier for the treatment centers, but then how do you know what the good ones are? A lot of people do more research on buying a TV than in the healthcare provider for their child in this area.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

Sure. Absolutely. Um, I always say people will buy, um will pay for a contractor to build their home. They'll they'll pay for a financial assistant for their finances, et cetera. But a healthcare consultant to be able to guide them to and advocate for them, that's that's low on their priority. I don't know if it's the American way or just the human way, but we don't consider our own bodies, our own person, our own family as the highest level that we should take care of them in the utmost.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

Isn't that amazing, right? And uh, but they don't know that there are scammers out there. I guess people assume that, you know, dealing with healthcare, that people are gonna provide these services in good faith, that there are people who pay it forward. And there are, there are a lot of good people who want to help others because they've been through the ringer themselves. But then there's others who see a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and it's not benevolent at all, is to take advantage of these new laws, and I say new, it's relatively, but these new laws that have provided new benefits and they see a way to get money, a gravy train, if you will, on the backs of people with substance use disorder.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

Sure. Absolutely. And it will continue, but in South Florida, uh, how do you feel about what's happening now with treatment?

SPEAKER_01 28:31

Well, I think in Palm Beach County, we've cleaned up the industry. I think it's it's the it's the best anywhere in the country. I think when it comes to other counties, you know, I think I think that you know, just it it it depends on how serious law enforcement and the state attorney's office is taking it. And uh, you know, every county is different. But we have seen the Florida shuffle spread from Palm Beach County to other places in Florida and all across the country, especially in warm weather destinations. You see this problem more in Orange County, California than you do in Pittsburgh, for example. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

And how can other counties, Orange County, Los Angeles County, those counties in Arizona, or other counties in Florida, are they going to be able to bring you in as a consultant if they choose to? Tell us what I mean, tell us what you're going to be doing in into the future, because I know you're in private practice now.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

My uh my law firm, Dave Ehrenberg Law, now represents the members of the industry who want to stay on the right side of the law, who want to ensure the highest levels of patient care. You hire us because you want that gold seal of approval. You know, you want to be able to make sure that you never get in trouble with regulators because you don't even go in that gray area. I've had clients and they and they say, can we do this? Can we pay for patients in this indirect way? And I'll write a memo and say no. And they said, Well, you're so conservative. I said, Yeah, that's why you hired me. Because if we're gonna work for a treatment center, it's gonna be one that is motivated by the right principles, the right values, and not by the almighty dollar.

SPEAKER_00 30:24

You're going to be um hired by treatment providers here in South Florida. Is there or anywhere in the state of Florida? Do you see yourself working for with other attorneys potentially trying to do the same thing in other states?

SPEAKER_01 30:43

I would work with um with attorneys in other states who who shared our same values and principles. Um, yeah, not I would not want to work with those who were there to try to get their clients out of something if they did something. I want to help them on the front end. Yeah, I want to help on the front end to say, here, here, here's what you want to stay clear of. Here's the advice to make sure you are ensuring the highest levels of patient care. Um, we have a good relationship with FAR, Florida Association of Recovery Residences, and that that's helpful. So there are treatment or sober homes out there that want to make sure that you know they're licensed properly through FAR, and we are able to help with that. So there are a number of services we can provide. There's zoning issues, there's there's disputes with insurance companies we can help with that. That's a very fertile area of the law. And so, you know, we we're on the gamut. We have about 20 clients in the drug treatment area. And so I love the fact I can continue the work that I started in the public sector into the private sector.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Sure. Any other parting words that you can say for families, for parents that are trying to get their loved ones some help?

SPEAKER_01 32:00

You're not alone. There are people who have been through it. And even if you don't buy my book, check it out to see the groups that are out there that have been through hell and back and are paying it forward. And and just to know that the Sober Homes Task Force in Palm Beach County is there to help everyone around the country. It's not just for Palm Beach County. They have an 800 number, it's a toll-free number, and they take calls from all across the country. So just to know that when things seem to be darkest, there really is a light at the end of the tunnel. And there are people who have been through it, and there are good people out there. I've met so many more good people in this area than I have who try to do harm to others. And the good people and the uh advocates for the loved ones who've been through this, we are greater in number, and we're going to continue to make a difference. So I'm going to thank you, Pam, for having me on your show. You're one of them. You're a light out there in the darkness, and I'm just grateful to be part of this.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

Thank you. I appreciate you and everything that you've done and still do. Thank you for joining the conversation today. If you are seeking help for yourself or a loved one, please reach out to our Feinberg Consulting Team at 248-538-5425. That's 248-538-5425. And check out our website at feinbergcare.com. I'm grateful for our guests and all who have joined us today. Make sure you follow us on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you listen to podcasts.