Ep. 38 - How Do You Find Hope After a Cancer Diagnosis

Sometimes the people who help us heal become part of our story forever.

When stage three colorectal cancer returned as stage four with liver metastasis, Pam Feinberg-Rivkin found herself facing a very different journey than the one she had traveled before. Looking for support beyond treatment alone, she connected with Dr. Jen Green, a naturopathic physician and integrative oncology expert whose guidance would become an important part of her path through chemotherapy, recovery, and remission. What unfolds is a thoughtful conversation about what it really means to care for the whole person during cancer treatment.

As Jen shares her approach to integrative cancer care, the conversation moves beyond supplements and research into the deeply human side of healing. They explore survivorship, purpose, stress, sleep, movement, meditation, healthy relationships, and the importance of creating a life that supports long-term wellness. Pam reflects on the lessons that emerged from her own cancer journey, including learning how to receive help, embrace community, and step away from the relentless pace that once defined her life.

Jen also shares her experience as a cancer survivor, the role of resilience in difficult seasons, and the unexpected ways connection, gratitude, dance, mindfulness, and presence can help carry us through uncertainty. Healing is rarely about one thing alone, but about finding the courage to belong fully to your life again.

Contact Pam Feinberg-Rivkin:
Facebook: @FeinbergCare
Instagram: @FeinbergCare
LinkedIn: Feinberg Consulting Inc
YouTube: @FeinbergConsulting8059 

Looking for a practical takeaway from this conversation?
Download our complimentary companion resource, Looking Beyond the Behavior, designed to help parents and caregivers shift from asking "What's wrong with my child?" to "What might my child be communicating?" The guide explores how looking at children's emotional, behavioral, and physical health through a holistic lens can open the door to greater understanding, connection, and support.

Contact Pam Feinberg-Rivkin:
Facebook: @FeinbergCare
Instagram: @FeinbergCare
LinkedIn: Feinberg Consulting Inc
YouTube: @FeinbergConsulting8059 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to the Resilient Butterfly Podcast. My goal is to share inspiring stories of healing and recovery through many diverse approaches and models. Our guests bring incredible lived experiences, insights, andor professional expertise, each with their own unique path. While we highlight and celebrate these stories, our intention is to inform, inspire, and demonstrate resilience and creativity. This podcast does not endorse any one approach. We believe there is more than one way to heal, and we're here to showcase the resilience and possibilities that exist. Hello, everyone. Welcome to Resilient Butterfly. I am your host, Pam Feinberg Rifkin, and I am really happy to have you back to listen. There are so many different things that are going to be talked about today. In this space, we explore stories of transformation, how people rise from life's most difficult moments with courage, insight, and often often a surprising sense of purpose. And today's episode is especially meaningful to me because I have the honor of speaking with someone who walked alongside me during one of the most challenging chapters of my life. In June 2020, I was diagnosed for the second time, but this had gone from stage three to stage four colorectal cancer with liver metastasis. And as I began navigating the overwhelming maze of treatments and decisions, I contacted Dr. Jen Green, a naturopathic physician and integrative oncology expert. With compassion, calm, and deep clinical expertise, Dr. Green guided me through a supplemental approach that supported my body during chemotherapy and beyond. I have been in remission since November 2020, and her insight was a meaningful part of that journey. Dr. Green is a board-certified naturopathic oncologist, fellow of the American Board of Naturopathic Oncology, and we'll go into what that all means, an internationally respected leader in integrative cancer care. With more than 25 years of experience in integrative oncology, Dr. Green has dedicated her career to blending evidence-based natural therapies with conventional care in a safe, collaborative, and patient-centered way. She founded the Naturopathic Department at Bowman Hospitals in Michigan in 2008, serving as a department head for five years, one of the earliest and most innovative hospital integrative oncology programs in the United States. I am welcoming Dr. Green. I call her Jen, and she's a very, very special person. Thank you for being here and agreeing to this. And I think there's a lot for people to learn here.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

It's an honor to be here. Thank you, Pam.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

So you and I began working in June 2020. And when you meet with a new oncology patient, what is the first priority that you see?

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Because in order to fully listen and help identify what their main needs are, we have to be present with ears open. So I would say that's the top one. And you know, we we use the language patient-centered care or person-centered care in medicine and in oncology specifically a lot. And it's much harder to put into practice. It's much harder to sit and not jump in with our own agenda right from the get-go. Absolutely. Right. Right. Because, you know, you do have these small agendas. You'd like to help manage side effects. You'd like to, you know, there's there's some nitty-gritties that certainly are part of the overall goals. But starting with where the person is at and what they're really needing from yourself as a clinician in that moment is where it begins.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

So with me, I had already gone through treatment in 2017. And as you recall, I had to go to your partner because I worked with your partner in that period of time. Um, because you were on maternity leave? Was that what that or you were on some leave? Or I'm not sure, 2017. So that was would have been eight, nine years ago. Um that wouldn't have been maternity leave.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

No, no, too late for too late for maternity leave. They're already out of the house.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

So anyway, I um interesting enough, I I followed the guidelines then, but didn't embrace it to continue after I was done with treatment. I was done, it took me probably a year to recuperate from everything. Because I had chemo and then I had radiation, well, no, excuse me, surgery, chemo, radiation, and then another surgery. And it was very debilitating at the time. Um, I just wanted it to be done and I wanted to be normal. And when it hit me again in 2020, and it was stage four, like, okay, there's got to be a change in my life. And part of that change was really working side by side with uh integrative oncologists, oncology partner such as yourself. And so I was really happy to be able to do that. And really, then, no, it wasn't about just during treatment, it was after treatment.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

Yeah, I would say that survivorship plans are a pretty large part of what most of us do in the space, in the integrative oncology space. And um in creating a good survivorship plan, it encompasses all of the values of integrative oncology. You're individualizing the care, you're addressing all of the foundational lifestyle pieces: exercise, nutrition, healthy relationships, sleep, stress management, meaning and purpose. Right? Each of those is its own distinct area that needs to be addressed to whatever degree with the unique person that you're working with. And so, yeah, exactly. Survivorship plans are are really um a foundational piece of the work.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Well, that's what I have found for sure. And I continue to work with you, not on a very uh frequent basis do I need to, because I am in in remission, yay. Um, and I just and I continue to to do the things that as you talked about, um, purpose. This is one of my purposes here, um, bringing people on who are resilient, and that is myself and why I started it. It was like there are other people who are resilient in giving hope to those that are just beginning to feel whatever pain there is in their life, whether it's alcohol addiction or drug addiction or cancer or any other type of debilitating or trauma-based work, mental health, all of this. And to have that um ability to have the exercise, the nutrition, the sleep, the purpose, the um supplements, if need be. Um, and on and on to continue to build what that is, to continue to be healthy and healthier. And I would say um right now I feel the healthiest I have in a very, very long time.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

That's the goal.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

That's the goal.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

Isn't it amazing?

SPEAKER_01 8:07

So go let's go back to what it means to be an uh naturopathic and integrative oncologist.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Yeah. So um there is an oncology association of naturopathic physicians. So that's a website that's you know worth knowing about in terms of finding local referrals because it is a sub-specialty to work in cancer care. And it requires pretty total dedication, to be honest, just because um to learn the conventional oncology pieces deeply requires uh yeah, uh a definite commitment and an ongoing commitment because the research is so rapidly evolving in the space, much, much more rapidly evolving than in other areas of medicine, I would say. Cancer care also has way more new drug approvals than other spaces. So, again, it requires a nimbleness, it requires critical appraisal skills for research. Um, I'm also a research director for an organization called KNOW, no oncology.org, which is a database and a web-based educational tool that systematically searches um and categorizes all human studies on nutrition or a natural agent and cancer care. So um that's invaluable in making clinical decision making. And it's you know, we've had that database for not almost nine years now, and to watch the research explode and also the quality of the research, frankly, better research design as well, um has been remarkable. And um frankly, if you don't have a if you don't have a tool to kind of keep you up to date, it becomes almost unmanageable as a clinician. And so, you know, I really see naturopathic oncologists. So there's I I would I don't know the exact numbers, but I would say somewhere in the order of 200 between US and Canada who are board certified in oncology. So have, you know, written exams in the area and we re-certify every 10 years. That's not very many people, 200 for two years. No, it isn't. Yeah, it's but it's an extremely uh, and then there's I would say another two, 300 that are part of the association who might not have 100% of their practice dedicated to oncology, but have enough of their practice that they join and are active on the listserv and come to the conferences. And that community of naturopathic physicians is extremely dedicated, heart-centered, evidence-informed, um, yeah, just leaders, thought leaders, I would say, as well, um, in this space. And you know, we talk about comprehensive cancer care centers in a conventional sense. And I many of us share the same dream of every comprehensive cancer center, in order to be comprehensive, should have an atropathic physician on staff to be that herb drug expert, because these are not the complex decision making that goes into a herb drug interaction concern is not something that can be made without taking into consideration the person in front of you, their risk tolerance, the oncology team's risk tolerance, their clinical situation. I mean, there's a million moving parts. And so often that decision, well, might get bounced to an oncology pharmacist who's never even met the person and doesn't have a sense of their other health concerns, whether they're diabetic or not, whether there's something, and they do their best, but it's it's we're putting staff in an unfair position in the cancer care space when we don't have someone dedicated to herb drug interactions and to integrative oncology specifically as part of that quote unquote comprehensive cancer care center. So that's that's a dream for many of us. And there are a whole bunch of systems, I think at least seven now, that have naturopathic physicians on staff who are board certified. So that's exciting. But we're good to hear more. Yeah, it's good, it's a good start. It's a good start.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

So I want to I want to go back to uh how do you even become a naturopathic physician and what is the number of years that you where are these colleges that you go to, the universities, or where do you get your studies from?

SPEAKER_00 12:37

Yes, and um, we're actually seeing some mergers between the different colleges. So we've got um two locations, Vancouver and Toronto, for the Canadian school, Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine in Boucher. Um we also have Bastier University in in Seattle, um, NUHS in Chicago, Sonoran, which is in Phoenix, Arizona, um, and then National, which is in Portland, Oregon. And we might be seeing some merges of some of the U.S. uh colleges. You need to have four, you know, four years of undergrad and you have to have pre-med requirements uh in order to get into naturopathic medical school. It's a very small profession. I liken us to um the osteopaths, but 10 or 15 years ago. So, like DOs, um, we do have a distinct scope. There's a lot of conventional training that we receive, right? Differential diagnosis, pathology, um, and whatnot. But instead of focusing on pharmaceuticals to the extent that conventional physicians do, we are also trained in nutrition, herbal medicine, or botanical medicine as it's sometimes called, mind-body medicine, lifestyle counseling, homeopathy. And some of the schools will teach traditional Chinese medicine, although that's a more minor part. And the scope really varies from state to state because even though we're federally recognized as primary care providers, um, some states have licensing and some do not. And so what you're able to prescribe and do in different states varies widely. Um yeah, and then in order to practice, you need to pass um N-Plex exams, which are similar to NPlex exams in medicine. And thankfully for me, having moved from Canada, those are North American-wide exams that once you write them, that's great, you're done. Um, but if you want to move on to specialize in oncology, you either have to be doing an oncology residency, which didn't actually exist when I was graduated in 2000. Um, I had done a cross-training grant with Sick Kids Hospital and done some research work with them and taught some evidence-based medicine courses as part of that grant process. Um, but uh after that, um, in order to qualify to write and sit your uh naturopathic oncology boards, you need to either have done a two-year full-time residency or been working for five to ten years and demonstrated a whole bunch of case studies in the field. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

So it's not a um homesty. It's definitely not a home study. That's a great, yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

It's definitely, it takes a village to learn.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

I wanted to bring that out because it is um what really impressed me is the research that you do and the knowledge that you had on the supplements that you were giving me, recommending for me to use. And um it it really um like I uh I am working with someone who is brilliant and who knows this and has really carried me into my life. So um the other the other part of it is not it is not a um naturopathic oncology doesn't replace treatment. So I went through the same treatment, but was able to get through the treatment better and with greater outcomes with the recommendations that you provided for me.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

Yes, yes, thank you. The the goal is to um work synergistically, both to help manage side effects so people are stronger, so their immune system is more intact throughout treatment, um, and also to optimize the outcomes. And as time moves on, we get to see what areas the needle is being moved in terms of improving survival outcomes. And that's always everyone's end game. We just want to stack all the odds in someone's favor and use the best, best of all possible worlds. Um, naturopathic oncologists are bridges between conventional oncology and the integrative complementary medicine world. We really are that bridge. And in order to be that bridge, you have to speak the language of all ends of the spectrum.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

So I want the listeners to know that in addition to receiving the supplements and doing going through that and anything else that I was doing for my immune and immunity to go through, I did go through a second uh more chemo in 2020. And I then I had a liver ablation, which then fortunately, with everything that I was doing, has and continued to do, um, being able to really do the things that I want to do. And not everyone has the pleasure to do that, but I think with some really good coaching and or therapy for your mind-body connection of what is your purpose in life? And you don't have to be on the same treadmill or rat race that you were before. I didn't, you know, I didn't know how to get off it. You know, the the hamster wheel. I just kept going round and round and round because that's all I knew until I didn't and I couldn't or wouldn't anymore. I could, but maybe not survive. Um, so there's so much, it's complex.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

Yeah, and rich. And that, I mean, what you part of what you're speaking to, which you know, post-traumatic growth is often what it's called in the research, um, is profound, is perhaps some of the greatest life lessons we can experience.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

Um yeah, and that's a spiritual growth, post-traumatic growth. For me, it has been a spiritual growth. For others, may relate it to something else, but for me it's been a spiritual growth.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

Yeah. I think for most people, actually. Yeah, fully self-included.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

Yeah, I want to go through that in your own personal journey because you are a cancer survivor yourself. How did you um what did you do when you were diagnosed?

SPEAKER_00 19:01

You know, it's so interesting. I mean, other than be in shock, because we're all in shock. No, it doesn't happen to me. Part of the process, yes, it is part of the process. Um it one of my thoughts very early on was this is a divine curriculum. And I'm not gonna argue with a divine curriculum, whatever it is. Um, so that just bubbled up very early. And the other thought I had, I remember driving in the car. You know, you make these promises to yourself. I made a promise to myself that I wouldn't take it personally if this was actually cancer. I'm I'm grateful to that part of me. That was a wise part to make that promise. Um, because it is so tempting, especially for women, but men as well, to um to blame ourselves for a cancer diagnosis.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

Uh and I think not only blame ourselves, but there are others that say, oh, you know, maybe they did something in their life that the this is what they deserve. And that is horrific when you horrific. Toxic. Yes. So those people can stay away. Yes. And in their own little bubble of what they would like to think of the of the world. Um, but go on with then what?

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Yeah. Um, so I was diagnosed with um what's called an oropharyngeal cancer. So it's a tons, it was a tonsillar cancer, an HPV-positive one, thankfully. So when it's virally uh induced, they're very, very sensitive to radiation. So um, and you know, head and neck cancer, having worked with it for many years as well, prior to my diagnosis, I was aware that it would be vicious, um, but I was also aware that it would be short, the treatment. And so um I just feel so unbelievably grateful for integrative medicine because I think my suffering, I know my suffering would have been far, far greater had I not had all of the resources and supports with nutrition and exercising regularly and uh medical hypnosis for pain management and all of the mind-body therapies and acupuncture. I mean, I really mobilized the troops. Um and I learned a lot, of course, because it was a divine curriculum. One of the things that I learned, which I knew intellectually, but really didn't get as deeply as I understand it now, is the importance of community support and connection. Um, how much of a lifeline it would be on those rough chemo days to get a text from a friend or a family member. Um, how that giving and receiving of love would be almost necessary, like food.

SPEAKER_02 21:58

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 21:59

And that we should not underestimate our impact on our loved ones who are going through cancer because it is uh it is a lifeline for them in in many or most cases.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

Um yeah I think uh when I when I look back at it um I into this is one of the lessons I learned in the first time around and continue to learn in 2020 is that that um I was always give give give because I was a nurse and I went into nursing for a reason and I felt that that was the best way that I could learn you know live my life and I've learned since that it's not because you can't just go one-sided you have to receive and I was for the first time in my life I able was able to receive and I have to say that I didn't I didn't recognize that beauty in my husband to be able to give to me he's given to me a lot of things in my life but I he always shunned hospitals and medical treatment and but when it came down to it he was the giver during those periods of time and that is so so important to have someone you know whether it is a spouse or a family member or as you say community it doesn't have to be a relative yeah and that um I like you I I had that same learning oh my gosh how to learn how to receive and to understand that receiving is a generosity yeah right that you're allowing people to participate in your life to be there for you at a time of vulnerability it creates intimacy.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

So actually receiving is being generous in the relationship. Absolutely yeah people are grateful to have been able to give in times like that we all know how good it feels to give right so we want to give people that opportunity to let let being on the receiving end of that in and out cycle that and let people in yeah and your um your ability to bounce back um from all of the treatment that you had and whatever if it how long do you think that took or did you just continue on working and doing other things or I mean I I was off work for three and a bit months so that's a pretty short time period. I did go back too soon that's not a huge shock. My when my voice came back so you know your voice gets a little messed up by radiation. So when my voice came back I did record a guided imagery album for cancer that's free on Spotify and Amazon and Apple and all those places. So I wanted to let people know about that free resource. It's called Beloved Cancer for guided guided imagery for cancer um DRGen Green. And um for me, you know there's always these these um almost like um hallmarks or or or um what's the word I'm looking for uh punctuation marks in the healing process where you stop and there's almost feels like a ritual aspect to it. Right? The way there's a ritual with going for active surveillance and getting your testing done even though it's extremely anxiety provoking um wow is it ever um it's also a sort of punctuation evaluation time. So for me I had done uh guided imagery training a month before my diagnosis so that was divine timing. And then here I lose my voice and then I read where do you go for guided imagery hosted by Corwell um Gail Ivo Patricolo who's been doing customized guided imagery you know had done it for years at at the hospital and is now in private practice um led that workshop at at uh Corwell in Hello Yeah so that was divine timing yeah yeah you can't argue with sometimes with this stuff no yeah when when you look back at your your time as you say you know punctuations you know the timeline of things is like remarkable a miracle yeah and I think that's part of the resiliency um that you can build those blocks and continue to have that in store so that and we can choose what to anchor too right in terms of anchoring gratitude um that pretty constant practice of trying to shift our nervous systems from fear to love um from fear to connection to um keep ourselves on track. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

And you say community what what types of community I mean where did you go for community or did people just come to you because of your own lifestyle that you had?

SPEAKER_00 27:18

When I would say I'm extremely fortunate to be quite embedded in the Jewish community here in West Bloomfield. So that's a deep honor and has been the past 25 years of my life but I also have circles of community in the dance world in you know Toronto where I'm from childhood friends university friends. I mean it's amazing how people circle back to give you support in times of need.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

So tell me dance community tell me about that uh so I've been going to um Dance New England which is a camp in western Massachusetts um for oh my gosh 30 literally 30 years all kinds of dance so it I do a lot of ecstatic dance sometimes that's called Gabrielle you know Roth five rhythms it can be recognized as that some some people just call it ecstatic dance um so music no talking a meditation in motion um it sounds fabulous oh it's it's you you go once a year or more often than that I go all the time I try and dance two to three times a week that's that's uh and I I had not made space for that before cancer and since that has become part of my medicine yes so one of the things that came out in my first round of chemotherapy I came home with the pump and I um I talked about this a little while ago in one of my podcasts I don't remember which one but the fact is that I was nausea I had nausea and I was home alone I put on some music loud music and I danced and I just danced around the house and that nausea was released had no more nausea. So the tools that you can have for your body to really reintegrate into or help with each other um is remarkable.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Yeah movement and everyone finds their own type of movement that works for them but I would say healthy movement is so essential in moving the energy through the the emotional psychic energy and the physical um treatment treatment is a lot of taking stuff into your body so there's an integration that happens as you're moving in any way walking in the woods going to an exercise class whatever Pilates yoga whatever it is for people that joyful movement um that coming back coming back home to yourself to your body because it you know you have to leave your body sometimes in in in the hospital setting to to avoid some of the suffering and that's you know healthy dissociation I would say but it's also just so important to come back and belong in your body again. Yeah in the in the hospital I started well I I actually yeah in the hospital I started meditation and I would say that meditation got me through all those days in the hospital as well as you know I continued to use meditation in my life because it is I wanted to I wanted to share something about meditation um mindfulness based stress reduction especially just that we now have two 10-year follow-up studies in breast cancer specifically that um doing a six to eight week mindfulness slash stress reduction program um will reduce recurrence rates and overall mortality and breast cancer specific mortality and the recurrence differences were between one of the studies was 56% and one study was 72% lower recurrence. So you know we think of these therapies like meditation as soft because they're low risk and because the you know the side effects are are side benefits if anything um but they also can have an impact on survival rates.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

That's good for everyone to know because I know for a fact that that that's true. And being having that it really enhances my life and I know that it would enhance everyone's life if they embraced it. And there are different ways of doing that. I continue with acupuncture and Pilates and yoga those are movements in my body that I choose to do walking as well. But dance I would like to look at is a one of those other um and I bought a panda drum so actually use that as a you know being able to drum a little bit um so there's just so and sound bath um there's so many different ways to be able to to have um a healthier body for ourselves and and mind because it is a mind-body connection that I found and um what um as far as um where people can find I would I'm gonna go back first to have you defined what is resilience.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

That's a great question I would define resilience as mobilizing all the tools we can and possibly need to allow for distress tolerance and to allow us to keep holding life as the wonderful and dreadfully hard thing that it is to hold all together at once. Very nice sorry for not being more articulate that I didn't really thought that through ahead of time but you know one of the contexts that I have I used to call I still call um my herbal tea dispensary I have a small tea dispensary in my office that was my midlife crisis and they're all teas that are used for stress you know what teas for stress that goes to digestion digestive offset teas that go to you know heart area heart palpitations or tight chest or teas that go to for racing mind. So um and I've always thought of herbs as when we can't we don't have quite enough internal resources to face the situation we're facing so we need a little help from the outside and so I I like expanding our view of resilience as not just an individual internal thing that we carry, although it is that as well we have the parts of ourselves that parent ourselves that help us stay calm that self-regulate all of all of that but also we can receive help from the outside whether that's acupuncture whether that's herbal medicine whether that's good nutritional supplements or or something to treat a deficiency that that we're not um we don't need to nor can we go it alone because we are in an ecosystem and as such our ecosystem has to support health as well not just our you know we can't just kind of create that for ourselves. I do I do believe we don't buy health we create it. So you know I don't want to get overly commercial in our view of things either that's a another sort of yucky extreme um but I do think we are uh embedded in our ecosystems and so we have to address the health of the whole ecosystem and call upon the resources that are there for us. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 34:57

And our ecosystem is different than many many years ago and people didn't survive as long as we are now and enhancing that is always good. I think people we're always learning I mean that's what science is dedicated to is always learning how to try and improve upon so I I just um interviewed last week a a woman who's turning 90 really from Michigan. I don't know if you know her Sonia Friedman Dr. Sonia Friedman okay well she's still a therapist working but she her her um story is remarkable and her both her cognitive and physical condition is remarkable um and she's you know it's just always looking at what are people doing um in creating a better life for themselves you talk about stress stress comes in many different ways whether it's environmental stress or family stress or work stress or you know some of it's to our benefit if we looked at it as good stress that that motivates us to do something.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

And then that chronic stress yeah that wears and tears. Yeah I love uh that we can attune to one another attune to high functioning people which is I you know I think what I perceive this yeah podcast to be all about is is sharing we are all learning from each other but there's a a deeper way that we can experientially attune sure when we meet someone hear their voice get a sense of them and they inspire us to be that way too you know and it goes back to your first when you first meet somebody for the first time being present and if we can be present to each other where do we what do we get to learn from people that we have no idea of their life that they could like embellish our life with and really um provide such a a a rich portion of newness to our life and you have done that for me. Thank you it's been such an honor to be a part of your circle of care Pam thank you so much. Where do people find you um people can find me at drgengreen.com people can find a local naturopathic physician or an integrative oncology provider generally um nooncology.org so KNOW oncology.org has a provider network and those are providers who are accessing the research some of them are acupuncturist some of them are pharmacists you know it's it's multidisciplinary but there that's a good referral source and if you know you want an a naturopathic oncologist specifically then um onc AMP Oncology Association of Naturopathic physicians is what that stands for dot org also has a referral uh system so you can search by uh location or specialty or whatnot and I brought a Rachel Naomi Reman quote I don't know she's great um yeah I because I think it's a lot of what you're doing here with this podcast Pam so this is from uh My Grandfather's Blessings by Rachel Naomi Reman. When you listen the integrity and wholeness in others moves closer. Your attention strengthens it and makes it easier for them to hear it in themselves. It has been my experience that presence is a more powerful catalyst for change than analysis and that we can know beyond doubt things we can never understand.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

In some mysterious way the life in someone may use us to strengthen itself oh that's beautiful so beautiful thank you for sharing isn't that what is beautiful that the life in someone may use us to strengthen itself thank you so much for sharing yourself your wisdom your brilliance and everything about you thank you for joining the conversation today if you are seeking help for yourself or a loved one please reach out to our Feinberg consulting team at 248 538425. That's 248 538 5425 and check out our website at feinbergcare dot com. I'm grateful for our guests and all who have joined us today. Make sure you follow us on Apple, Spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts