Ep. 41 - Why Families Stay Stuck—and What Professionals Can Do About It

What do you do when someone you love refuses help and every option feels impossible?

Families living with addiction often reach a point where fear, guilt, and exhaustion make it difficult to know what comes next. Craig Robinson shares how his own recovery journey led him to combine law, social work, and lived experience to help families access treatment through Florida's Marchman Act. Alongside Feinberg Consulting's Thatcher Shivley, the conversation explores what really happens when a family decides to intervene, why addiction is a brain disease rather than a failure of willpower, and how compassionate action can open the door to recovery when hope feels out of reach.

Pam, Craig, and Thatcher talk honestly about the emotions families carry, from the fear that a loved one will never forgive them to the shame that keeps difficult conversations from happening. They explain how clinical intervention, family coaching, and the Marchman Act can work together to create a path toward treatment, while reminding families that healing is never just about one person. Lasting recovery asks everyone to grow.

The conversation is a powerful reminder that intervention is not about punishment or control. It is an invitation to choose life, restore connection, and begin telling the truth with love. Sometimes the bravest thing a family can do is take the first step before the next crisis arrives.

Looking for a practical takeaway from this conversation?
Download our complimentary companion resource, Looking Beyond the Behavior, designed to help parents and caregivers shift from asking "What's wrong with my child?" to "What might my child be communicating?" The guide explores how looking at children's emotional, behavioral, and physical health through a holistic lens can open the door to greater understanding, connection, and support.

Contact Pam Feinberg-Rivkin:
Facebook: @FeinbergCare
Instagram: @FeinbergCare
LinkedIn: Feinberg Consulting Inc
YouTube: @FeinbergConsulting8059 

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Welcome to the Resilient Butterfly Podcast. My goal is to share inspiring stories of healing and recovery through many diverse approaches and models. Our guests bring incredible lived experiences, insights, andor professional expertise, each with their own unique path. While we highlight and celebrate these stories, our intention is to inform, inspire, and demonstrate resilience and creativity. This podcast does not endorse any one approach. We believe there is more than one way to heal, and we're here to showcase the resilience and possibilities that exist. Hello everyone. Welcome back to Resilient Butterfly. I'm your host, Pam Feinberg Rifkin, and today we have an amazing two people who this story is not even a story, it's some stories weaved in with education and information for people who are really searching for the best answer in regard to how to help a loved one with addiction, whether it's alcohol, drug addiction, and where what are some of the resources available? So we have Craig Robinson, who is an attorney and partner with Robinson and Casey, who does Marchman AC and Guardianship, and Thatcher Shively with Feinberg Consulting, who is a client relations manager. Did I have that right? Nope.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Client relations officer.

SPEAKER_04 1:33

Client relations officer.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Same thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:36

And interventionist and coach has been with uh us at Feinberg Consulting. I am not really much into titles, as you can see here. So I'm a little rusty with titles. And um we have some really great information to start, and then there will be a webinar, a live webinar that both Craig and Satch are doing together on July 22nd at noon. And we'll later tell you how to get um involved in that. It's free um to anyone who wants to join. So welcome guys. I appreciate both of you being here. Um I'm gonna start with you, Craig. Um, Marchman Act uh is a little bit different. It's a nuance, and I want to go into what that all means, but how did you get into the Marchman Act?

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Um, I mean, you know, kind of a make a long story short, I guess. Um I was an attorney in Pennsylvania, New Jersey for about 10 years, and during that time period was um had my own issues with addiction and mental health and uh admitted to treatment um in 2018. Uh, and that created kind of a real shift in my life at 35 years old, where I was really left kind of in a place where I realized that I hadn't ever felt connected to the work that I was doing as a civil trial attorney for a long time. And uh so really started doing some self-exploration on what I wanted to do with the rest of my life. I went back to school and got a master's of social work. Um, I met my now law partner, Richard Casey, while I was in treatment. He was working at the treatment facility that I was in. And uh we formed a friendship and a bond. And um, you know, started hearing about the Marchman Act and started learning about ways that I could really combine not only my lived experience, but my background in social work and in law, and kind of bundled them all up into one uh one thing, which is now Robinson and Casey, which is um all that we do is help families to access treatment for addiction and mental health even when it feels out of reach. The Marchman Act is one of the ways that we do that. Um, and it's a really cool and unique law. Uh, the reason that it's unique is it gives families an opportunity to intervene through the court system for a loved one who's suffering from substance use and co-occurring mental health disorders, and utilizing the court system to uh compel them to go to involuntary treatment, not involuntary stabilization at a hospital setting, but truly involuntary treatment where they can be around other folks who are there voluntarily uh under a court order to ensure that they follow through and follow all clinical recommendations. Uh, and really no other state has anything quite like that.

SPEAKER_04 4:14

I was just gonna say that's only in Florida, which is pretty amazing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

And what I would say about the Marchment Act is that it's such a unique and special tool because we've seen this at Feinberg working with families where, you know, there are other orders that exist, right? And they get placed under that order, but in one, two, three days, sometimes less than a day, they are discharged. Right, right. And so without even full stabilization. And so families have been through the ringer with this. And I can't tell you how many families I've talked to that have said, you know, he had a crisis, he was uh hospitalized, but they let him go after a day. And that actually, I think, on some level makes things worse. So the Marchman Act is great because it compels for long-term treatment. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:58

So, Thatcher, with your experience working with Fine Bird Consulting, you take a lot of the initial calls. And you're talking about families that you've talked to. I want to really unpack what that all means in regard to when you get that call from a family who is just so much in crisis and so lost, and they have tried everything, and they're losing their loved one to this awful disease and ultimately death at some point. How does that well, how do you take them through that?

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Yeah, so I mean it starts with, you know, being a human being and having a conversation and and listening to them, right? And building rapport and trying to build trust. And, you know, I I do a a myriad of things, and it depends on the caller, right? You have some people that want to get down to brass tacks and aren't really wanting any of that, right? I'm speaking to you attorneys and engineers. Um, but I would say 80% of the phone calls that I take that are initial are are from moms, right? And I try to listen, right? And I try to normalize and I do my best to um give them an education and understanding because the I think one of the biggest things that I see is a lack of understanding about substance use disorder, alcoholism, and mental health disorders. They they don't understand the conditions, how could they? They they don't understand the solutions that are available to them, and they also don't understand you know their role in that. Not I'm not talking about blame, right? I'm not or anything like that, but how they were a co-participant andor an active participant in all of that. And so when I feel it's appropriate, I start with giving them, you know, an education, if you will, right? But through conversation, right? And I've seen that once that happens, it opens the door to other possibilities and solutions because someone's not going to be open to like forging a new path and having a solution in their life until there's some type of understanding of the problem. And so that's generally where I start is by listening and and and giving some understanding.

SPEAKER_04 7:14

And there is so much fear of what if they intervene in regard to what that person, that loved one, will actually do or or not do. As it steps through from intervention to marchmen, that's a big, big fear for families. So I think both and would like both of you to address that. I'll start with you, Craig, as far as Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

I mean, that is probably the biggest, the the most common uh objection, if you will, that we get typically is that um I can't go forward with anything like this, really kind of any kind of intervention, because I'm in fear that my loved one is going to hate me forever. We hear those words really consistently. And um I think there's a statistic out there that something like 85% of the things we worry about actually never come to fruition, right? Um, in my experience, in having seen families go through a process like a Marchman act or having, you know, folks like yourselves kind of involved in the process in an intervention or whatever that looks like for the family, um, that fear that my loved one is going to hate me forever is rarely the actual reality of the situation. Because as I generally tell families, remember, your loved one, if they're marchman acted, they're going to be in a facility, usually a really quality facility with a quality clinical team that's going to be with your loved one doing some really intense therapy where they're going to have the opportunity to kind of take a look at the history that got us here, right? You know, when a family comes to us, usually there have been, there's a pretty severe history, right? I mean, we're talking overdoses, hospitalizations, failed treatment episodes, uh driving while intoxicated, aggressive or violent behavior, former arrests. You know, there is a usually a pretty large transcript of events that have taken place that have led us to this point.

SPEAKER_04 9:25

It's not that Johnny is just only smoking weed that they get to be bunched but actually.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

And we get those calls too, you know, um, and generally we tell a lot of families that this is not sufficient to rise to the level of the need for a Marchman Act, that it would be better to start off with with Feinberg Consulting, for instance, to kind of to kind of work with you on that, in that element. But um, but yeah, I mean, we tend to see a lot of family healing that takes place once I call it the dust settles, meaning that in a Marchman Act case, there's going to be a hearing. And at that hearing, the individual who's in treatment has the opportunity to either agree or to contest the process. Most people agree once they're at that point to stay in treatment under a court order. We don't have a lot of contested hearings. And the reason for that is, you know, when you're kind of on the doorstep of that hearing and someone knows that the reality of the situation is now going to be kind of uh spilled out into a courtroom setting, um, you know, and a judge or a magistrate is going to make a determination. Most people at that point, when they're faced with that, that's kind of when they surrender to the process and say, you know what, I'm just going to do this, I'll agree to the court order and go from there. And that's when the real magic can happen, in my opinion. You know, when the family can be brought in and the real family work can start and the family healing can take place. But the but that my loved one's going to hate me forever. I'll generally tell families, I can never say that that's not going to be the case. It's just not what I typically see. Um, and every family fears that. And I understand that, I get it.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

Um, what I I try to reframe that for the families. And I have my own personal story with that, right? And my own substance use disorder history. I was in jail. And long story short, out of nowhere, I guess they messed up and I had gone from not having a bond, I wasn't properly arraigned, to having a bond after spending quite a decent amount of time. I called my father and was like, hey, if someone were to happen to produce $250, I would get to go home. I didn't even really have the guts to actually directly. And he was like, Yeah, that's good news, you know, and he he didn't do it. Now, how much did he have to love his only son to do that? And so I try to reframe that for families.

SPEAKER_04 11:44

Like I understand now, now I want you uh to pause here because what people are hearing, my God, your dad didn't love you enough to give the $250 instead of my dad loved me enough to not give the $250.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

How much did he have to face his own discomfort, his own pain, potentially make me angry, potentially put me in some type of you know, harm's way because he knew it was not good for me. Right. How much did he have to love me to have me essentially stay in jail because he knew the alternative, me leaving, wasn't healthy or good for me? And so I don't know that I always relay that story, but I try to reframe it to how much do you have to love your son, your daughter, your family member in order to do something so uncomfortable and so hard. And then down the road, maybe not in that moment, right? Generally that fear of they're going to not like me, they're going to hate me, they're going to be mad at me. What's underlying that? Some type of codependency. And so I will use that to bring up the idea of family support and coaching and working on all of that because it's those behaviors and those narratives that have helped sustain this and keep this alive on some level. Again, we're not talking about fault or blame. We're just talking about things that they've done that have actively participated in the situation. So it's an opportunity there for support and for coaching to help them through.

unknown 13:14

So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:14

And my experience also has been sometimes when people get to the point where they need an intervention for someone that they love, and then they start backpedaling, well, it's not as bad as it was when I called you two days ago. And and start making up things in a denial sort of way. And the shame of what that denial and shame go hand in hand, right? And what that all means. And instead of saying, What do you mean? It's like really pointing out, well, they do do this, don't they? They did this, right? You know, and and then eventually, like, oh yeah. So I the light comes on again.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

And this goes, this goes on. I see this of you know, I did this, I see it in the the people who are abusing the substances, and you see it in families, right? And in their path, usually what ends up happening is this this window opens up and they're able to see things clearly, see themselves clearly, right? The chaos for a moment, right, evaporates and they're able to accurately appraise their situation and what's going on, right? And so they take action. They take action and they they're very clear on what needs to happen, on what the problem is, and let's do this, right? But every day that something isn't kind of that that that action isn't taken, and more space is between that first moment, the window slowly closes until one, you know, they wake up and the window's closed and they're back to the we'll call it insanity of not being able to accurately appraise and see really what's going on. And so what I would say to families is things are going better, awesome. This is the time to do work. A farmer does not want to grow crops when the soil is bad. This is the time. We don't have to put out a fire. That's what I say. I got a lot of weird analogies. I have one about a garden, too, that I'll definitely slip through.

SPEAKER_04 15:11

I thought Steve Feldman had the analogies. But you've got different ones.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

That was a better way of saying I usually tell families it's in these scenarios, it's much better to be proactive than reactive. Um, you know, the the more you can be proactive, especially to Thatcher's point, when things seem to be in that position of like, we're not in the crisis in this moment, but we know that the crisis is coming. It could happen tomorrow, it could happen next week, it could happen two months from now. But one way or the other, the crisis is likely going to occur again. Um, I generally tell families that you have when you if you're talking to us, to Robinson and Casey, you you've kind of come to a place of having three options as I look at it. Number one, you can keep doing the same thing and hoping for a different outcome, which I think is the worst of the three options. Uh the second one is to hold or set and hold firm boundaries with your loved one. And most families, in my experience, can't do that without some level of support around them. Um, and the third one is intervention, whether that be a legal intervention or whether that be a clinical intervention, one way or the other, some form of an intervention is the third option, which I think typically, if a family, like to Thatcher's point, when they call us, they've taken action. Something has happened that has prompted them to call us now. Um, and I think that options two and three are the best of those options. But really, like I said, option two, um, I tell I'll tell families that setting and holding boundaries, in my opinion, looks like when your son or your daughter calls you and says, I need money, and if you don't give me money, I'm going to do X, Y, or Z. Um, that you're still able to say the only thing that I will give you money for or provide money for is help.

SPEAKER_04 16:56

Right, right. And that's really very difficult for a lot of families unless they get their own work and understand that this is a very different type of disease. It's a it's a brain disease that in very in very similar what I because I've worked with so many people with brain injury that from catastrophic injuries or or injury, you know, injury to the brain, that there is such a denial factor of the person that has it, that and others sometimes it's so silent that they can't see it.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Well, and I think that piece is really important back to my the earlier point around giving an education so that there's some understanding. I talk with families about what it is that their loved one is up against, that their body has quite literally, their whole physiology has been hijacked. And for them, drinking or doing drugs or whatever it is they're doing, it's like breathing. And not doing it is like trying to hold your breath. And what they are up against has more power to them. Right? They have this quite literal obsession that blocks out any past pain or consequences or any future promises or commitments. And it's something that just cannot be controlled or regulated with their mind, their will, their intellect, their education, their bank account. They quite literally have a body that can't drink or use substances, but a mind that constantly tells them that they must and that they have to. And so when they've been hijacked like that, you know, I don't want to be so absolute to say that like the the only solution is a professional one, but they've gone down a they've crossed this invisible line where a professional intervention and support is necessary.

SPEAKER_04 18:45

Nothing has worked. Whatever they have attempted or not attempted, or what they're they're lost. And it is and it is very insidious and it's very hard to handle on its own.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

But if family, you know, I talk to again moms and dads all the time, if they just think it's a weak misuse of their will and they just need to make better choices, they don't they don't get that other piece. They don't get the severity in what it is that they're up against. And so giving them this information, it's like the first time we probably read certain pieces of our own literature in recovery that it's just it's almost a freeing thing. Like, here, this is what's going on, and this is the way out of it.

SPEAKER_04 19:21

Well, it's the same thing, and um, I think both of you know, and a lot of the the people that watch this podcast or listen know that I am a cancer survivor. If I had I'll say I I have free will and I'm going to beat this on my own, I'm like, I I would have been really stupid.

SPEAKER_02 19:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:40

And I'm not saying that people are out there stupid. It's just that we are we need to look at this as a way to get treatment like we would heart disease, cancer, diabetes, all of this, rather than leaving it alone as it's a free will situation and the person is just a bad person. But I want to go into, we start with a clinical intervention, right? And what take someone through the steps of what we do for that clinical intervention, and then what may bring in a marchman acting, Craig.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

Yeah. We're making the phone call to them after. So we first meet with the family. That's that's the starting point for everything. We want to assess, we want to get a history, we want to get uh their level of resistance, previous attempts, acuity, how cognitive they are, right? Um, their capacity. We want to we want to get a full understanding of the family system and how they've operated and navigated and handled this, as well as their loved one. And after that, we come up with recommendations. Our recommendations are twofold, right? Type and level of care, a type of resource or or or uh program we're going to recommend. And then also an intervention strategy. Again, the word intervention, I kind of do quotes. I don't know if you can see that on the podcast, but it it exists on a continuum. You have on one end of the continuum a formalized uh process with letters, a family meeting that's very structured and intentional. And then on the other side of the continuum, you have maybe us just coaching the parents on having a conversation because they've never asked themselves. Again, severity, acuity, cognition, capacity, history, level of danger, it's going to determine that. When we've come to a point where we've determined for those reasons I just said, like there's a certain criteria based, maybe they've been to 13 treatment centers, and there's a level of danger there that's just not safe, and they can't make healthy choices for themselves. And not only that, they're a danger to themselves. That's when we'd recommend in our recommendations formally that we bring in, you know, Robinson and Casey to, you know, have have a Marchman Act.

SPEAKER_04 21:53

Uh and working um with you, bringing you in, how is it in cloud? Collaborating with a clinical team and your and the you and your attorneys.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

We love, first of all, collaborating with clinical clinical teams. I mean, if a family has Feinberg uh alongside of them as well, I we'll always tell families, like, I think that that works extremely well if the family is able to kind of have both uh components. Um, but really, you know, at the end of the day, um we're not able, we're we're attorneys, we are a law firm. As a part of our firm, for families that don't have Feinberg, for instance, we do have some folks on our team that have clinical backgrounds. And the purpose of those individuals is in no way to replace the work that you all do. If anything, it's to help guide the family towards that, to doing their own work, maybe giving them like kind of a small taste of what that might actually look like and trying to encourage them to seek out their own help and their own resources. But I mean, communication is key, number one. A lot of times that involves an intervention that could be like a formal intervention that could be taking place in state or out of state. Um, the Marchman Act uh applies to any individual that's located in the state of Florida. So sometimes this involves scenarios where someone might be out of state, there might be an intervention that's taking place out of state with the hope of bringing that individual to Florida. And um, and once the individual is here, if there are concerns, which oftentimes there are, that that individual will not actually follow through and will not complete treatment as recommended. I kind of look at um what we do as we haven't come up with a better analogy for this, Pam, but um, it's bumpers on a bowling lane, right? So the Marchman Act is are the bumpers. We're hoping that the the ball essentially gets to the to the pins ultimately. And and what we know, what that means ultimately is that the longer that somebody stays uh engaged in the treatment continuum of care, um, you can speak to this probably better than I can, but I believe the like the higher the likelihood of a successful outcome would be. So if we can kind of just keep that individual in treatment, the bumpers being what essentially keeps that individual in treatment and engaged in treatment, they might veer off from one side to the other of the lane, but the bumpers will always be there to kind of redirect them into the pathway of recovery. Um, having you all uh engage with the family uh on a more significant basis and doing that really important family work while we're making sure that the individual is in treatment, that they're compliant, that there's no issues that need to be addressed by the court or by the treatment facility while that individual is there. I think the duo that we kind of provide um really sets the family up for the best likelihood of success. I always tell families, I'm like, look, I remember in my own, um, I'm gonna talk about money for a second, if that's okay. But I remember in my own scenario when um I finally admitted that I had a problem. Um, I went to my father first and then, you know, had a conversation with my parents. And they found out at that point, they thought that I had been working as an attorney for quite some time, but I actually had was unemployed for a period of time and really was out of money and didn't have any health insurance at that point in time. And I remember making the first call to the treatment facility uh that we called and um hearing what the price or what the cost of 28 days of treatment was going to be. And when I heard that number, I looked over at my father who was on speakerphone. I looked over at my father and I said, let's just say it was $30,000 or $40,000. I said, You mean $3,000 or do you mean $4,000, not $30,000 or $40,000 or $50,000? And um, and I remember my dad looked over at me and just said, like, we're gonna do it. Like, we're gonna do it. There was a commitment there of like, we don't know what's best for us, so we're not gonna cut any corners here. I mean, we could have waited, tried to find something cheaper or more inexpensive or whatever the case may be. I generally tell families that in my experience, when you cut corners with whether they be financial corners or other corners, when it comes to addiction and mental health, uh, there's a higher likelihood that you're gonna end up back in that same position again. Sure. Doing it right the first time. To me, what that means is that if it's recommended by you all that a Marchman Act complement the work that you all are doing, um then I really highly recommend kind of taking the recommendation of the experts. I know in my own experience, my own personal experience, that worked out well for me.

SPEAKER_04 26:40

Um I've seen um Thatcher and I have seen it work out much better for for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

There seems to be a relief and some hope that just you know shows up. And obviously, we're here to provide the right path and do our due diligence and help guide them in that decision making so that they feel good about it and it's a powerful choice. But this idea of taking swift action, I think is really, really important because it does something. Like that we know we're engaged in a pursuit or heading towards somewhere. And I think that that just activates something and gives them hope, gives them immediate relief, and really feels like they're on a path. So I think Craig's point's really important.

SPEAKER_04 27:22

Well, action is really obviously very important. And the longer you stall, the longer then people say, Oh, you know, uh, we don't need to do it anymore. And then they go back to what was the norm for their life, which is not great. Um, and the but they're afraid to re really reactivate anything to go further. So taking that swift action obviously is really, really important there.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Yeah, and and one thing that a really common thing, and you might see this as well, is like, let's be honest, parents and families that are calling us, they they've got a lot of guilt. They've got a lot of shame. And you know, I'll listen to that. And I'm I'm certainly not one to tell anyone how to feel, but what I will say is, you know, listen, usually the best way to resolve guilt is by taking action and engaging in a path. Sure. And uh that's that's the path, the path forward, having a clear path forward is the best way. Is it gonna get rid of the guilt? You know, I I I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 28:23

I don't Well, I think that's work. That's work for them. And that's where families need to know that the families um getting their own work is gonna strengthen the relationship between them and their loved one and everyone else in the family and doing that work. Yeah. Um, and it's not easy work, right? You know, none of nobody wants to necessarily But is it harder than what they were doing before?

SPEAKER_01 28:50

That's a question.

SPEAKER_04 28:51

That's a question. Yeah. Some people think is it's easier because they'll just go back to what it was, and that's what they all know. And you know, the unknown is a little bit scary.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

The devil you know. Is that the old saying? Yeah, devil you know.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

But at least it's at least it's it's at least it's opening the to the door to those honest conversations, you know, between family members. I mean, we know, like when whether it's addiction, mental health, obviously there's uh there's been um, you know, using my own example, chronic dishonesty, I would say, you know, within the family, where um my family never really they knew something was wrong, but they didn't know to what extent. There were a lot of lies that were told, like working and actually not being employed, but there were many more. Um, you know, the only way that the family can heal and get better is is with those honest and open conversations. And that can that really can only happen, I think, or is most effective to happen with folks like yourselves, you know, having those real conversations with families.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

One thing I always tell families is like this whole process, the intervention process, is we're gonna turn on the lights and shut off the music. And we're gonna like this is a a truth-telling process. It's filled with love, care, dignity, but we're here to tell the truth because there are things that need to be said, right? We don't want to use those things as a as a as a hammer or sledgehammer, a weapon, a weapon, and that's where our guidance comes in. Because a lot of people have this kind of misconception about an intervention being this, you know, kick down the door and drag someone out. And I always tell families, like, this is this is about communication, not about confrontation. It's not an indictment, it's an invitation. And an invitation done right is filled with it's a celebration of life because we're not there to like convince them that they need to say no to drugs and alcohol. We're there to help them realize that they can say yes to life. Sure. And if it's done right again, in an idealized scenario, it really is. I I mean, it's a celebration. I can't, the the best feeling is once an intervention is done, the guy after, you know, or the you know, whoever it is, the loved one, after you know, fighting a little bit, being resistant, like they're they're hugging their loved ones and thanking them and crying.

SPEAKER_04 31:04

So many people want to be known that they're hurting, but they don't know how to let people know that they're hurting. And by families coming forth and taking a stand for them and in a loving way, will allow them to express themselves to get that help.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

Yeah. I think um if I could just explain it, I'll generally explain it to families also this way. In in my uh sometimes I'll just tell my own personal experience, but I mean, the hardest thing I ever had to do in my life was to was to ask my father for help. Truly, that was the hardest thing that I could ever have imagined doing was to admit that I have a problem. Um, you know, I was an attorney, I thought that I was supposed to be uh able to think my way out of certain issues. I certainly didn't understand the disease, um, you know, the disease aspect to addiction and mental health. I just kept thinking that I'll think my way out of this just like I think my way out of every other problem that I have. But that was the hardest thing I ever had to do was to actually um tell my father that I was a cocaine addict at the time, just getting those words out. Um, so you know, we'll generally tell families with the Marchman Act, the way I look at it, uh, since that is the hardest thing that your loved one will ever have to do, is to fully surrender and admit that they have a problem and that they need help. I need help are the four hardest words, uh, or I need your help. That was three words, I think, but are the hardest words that you'll ever have to say as an addict or um someone with a mental health condition. Um, if we can kind of remove the need for the individual to ask for help, um, you know, if the facts are severe enough and we utilize the Marchman Act to just get your loved one to a treatment environment where they can get off of substances, where their mind can clear. You know, Thatcher talked about being hijacked. We'll generally use that same terminology, that your loved one's brain is hijacked. It's not allowing them to actually ask for help and to stay in a place long enough that they can get well. Um, the other thing I'll say is that I believe that everybody, maybe not everybody, but most people are in treatment when they go voluntarily, are there with some form of external motivation, whether it be um a pending divorce or whether it be my parents are cutting me off financially, but something more so than just I want help is driving them into treatment. The majority of people, yeah, yeah. Um, I look at the Marchman Act as another X form of external motivation, maybe a little bit more extreme to some, um, but it is uh an external motivator. It's not when someone's in treatment under a Marchman Act, actually they can physically walk out the door. Legally, they can, but there's it's not a locked facility, there's not locked facilities. The person still has free will. But I think the best part about it is that they get to be around other individuals who are there on their own volition, maybe with some other level of external motivation, but truly want their own recovery. And in my experience, I think, you know, having been in treatment, you know, being around other people, especially the staff and the clinical team there, um, many of whom were in recovery, um, you know, that I got to kind of learn about their stories, that to me was contagious. I mean, that's really what inspired me to want to be sober and to want to, you know, to live, to choose life.

SPEAKER_04 34:40

You're not by yourself, you're not alone in this.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

I think what he brings up is very important because the biggest misconception that I I get about, you know, whatever intervention you want to talk about is, well, they have to hit rock bottom, right? They're not ready. And, you know, what I say to that is, well, let's bring that to them. Let's manufacture a consequence, have control over it so that they don't go out and do something much more catastrophic. And I think, again, Craig is right. Listen, I entered treatment not out of great virtue. I didn't wake up one day, I was like, you know what? Like, I I really need help. I I went to avoid a very unwanted legal consequence. And so a funny thing happened, though, a beautiful thing happened while I was there. My head started to clear. I started to engage, I started to see myself and experience myself much more clearly. And I crossed this line of like, oh, I don't just need to be here. I want to be here.

SPEAKER_04 35:39

Well, that's a good point, Thatcher. I want to bring that out even more so in regard to when people get to treatment, their their brains are really fogged up by the drugs and alcohol. They they can't think on their own. They can't, that that that is their ultimate their brain disease. And as that clears, then they become their set more their self to be able to then recognize their self. And but then when they start recognizing themselves, their set themselves, then they can start re-engaging with life, relationships, family, children, a lot of things that they never even could experience before.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

No, miracles happen. I mean, if no other, like even if none of that stuff happens, which it often does, and again, in my situation, my whole life didn't come together after 30 days in treatment. I didn't have it all figured out. No, but I was able to access just enough humility to say, I can't drink or do drugs safely, and I can't stop or stay stopped on my own. And that was the foundation, everything for for me, those two facts, everything could be built off of. But I wasn't gonna come to those two facts on my own unless I was in a container, bumper cars.

SPEAKER_00 37:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

In an environment where I think Craig's point was also really good about staff and and and being in a community and all the other, uh, I hate to use the word patients. What's a better word than patient? Clients. Clients, yes, let's use that word, clients. A funny thing happened because I for me, I really get to know myself in relationship and in relation to other people. And so when I would sit in groups or have conversations at the lunch table, I would, I would hear them, I would hear them talk about themselves and their stories, and I would be able to see and hear myself. Again, none of that's happening while I'm sitting in my apartment in Tampa getting drunk. It's just not. And so I'll tell families, again, in an effort to I guess I can't give them hope, but I can't invite them to experience it and have it. I'll I'll tell them miracles happen in treatment. They absolutely do.

SPEAKER_04 37:52

And I want families to know that intervention or marchment isn't just one and done. There's more work to be done for both the person of concern, the loved one and the family ongoing, and continue to re-engage with whatever that may be to uncover some of the whatever trauma may have been um happening over maybe generations. And you know, I've talked about generational trauma in some of the other past podcasts and that to be able to get to the bottom of and underneath. And Thatcher, you and I did a uh a program, gratitude program, a few years back. And um, I constantly remember, like, okay, go down the rabbit hole, if what, if what, and you keep going down, and there's still just digging more and more about where did this all start? And sometimes people can't because they don't have the memory, but they can get some help with other avenues of therapeutic support to be able to help release some of that.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

I also think that people don't know what trauma really is oftentimes. At least that was my experience too. Um, I was the guy in treatment saying, I don't have any trauma. I live. I wasn't in jail. I grew up uh, you know, in a normal normal family, whatever that means.

SPEAKER_04 39:19

But, you know, and um there aren't any normal things there are not, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Yeah, yeah. And uh, but I really got to learn what trauma is when I was in treatment. Um, and even did EMDR therapy, which I thought was uh really super impactful for me, um, for especially for somebody who didn't think they had any trauma going into it. Um, you know, but you really bring up a great point. One of the limitations that I struggle with is that we only get to be with the family for, you know, maybe three months, sometimes six months. Sometimes a marchman I can extend into a year and beyond. There really isn't any time limit for it staying in place. But to your point, Pam, is that I know that there needs to be so much more that happens after that. One of the things we've been trying to do more of now, um we call them, I don't know if I could say this here, but we call them gas calls, which are give a shit calls, you know. But for lack of a better word, but like to to check in with our families more regularly, even after the fact, months, years down the road. Like, how are you doing? You know, like how is the family doing? One of the great things about having you all, I think, for the family is that work that needs to take place well after the Marchman Act happens, right? That generational trauma that needs to be addressed, that deep kind of family-intensive uh work that needs to take place, so crucial. Um, I really hope, like, if I could send a message to those families now, it's like engage in those um those those those services after something like a Marchman Act is over as well. It is so necessary and so crucial to the likelihood of a favorable outcome long term.

SPEAKER_01 41:01

Yeah, one thing that again, another misconception is that it's John or Juni that needs to go away and get treatment. And we can stay the same and wait for his triumphant return and everything will go back to normal. And what I'll kind of tell families is is, you know, if I have a plant growing in a garden and that plant starts to wilt or go bad, I don't treat the plant necessarily. I mean, I do. I look at the environment, the ecosystem, the soil, the air, the sunlight. I look at the environment in which it's nurtured and grown. And if you do your own work and you work on some things and look at some things parallel to what your loved one is doing, we're going to get a better outcome here. Sure.

SPEAKER_04 41:42

Absolutely. Okay, July 22nd, 12 noon will be the webinar when families get stuck. Thatcher, how can someone access that?

SPEAKER_01 41:51

Great question. So you can access any information about the webinar via Robinson and Casey social media, Instagram, our Instagram, Facebook as well, and on Eventbrite, there will be links where you can register for the event, and we would love to see you guys there.

SPEAKER_04 42:05

And it's Feinberg Care and Robinson and Casey. So it's Feinberg Consulting. I want people to know. But the social media is Feinberg Care.

SPEAKER_01 42:15

At Feinberg Care, yep.

SPEAKER_04 42:17

Thank you both.

SPEAKER_00 42:18

Thank you. If I yeah, I mean, I just real quick have to say, I was thinking about this on my way over here, Pam, about um what an honor it is to kind of be with you. I know that you and your team um have been around for a long time. I forget what year you started.

SPEAKER_04 42:32

1996. 1996.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

Clinton was president. Clinton was present.

SPEAKER_04 42:36

Almost before you were born. I was 13, yes.

SPEAKER_00 42:39

No, but uh, but it's pretty amazing to think of how many families and how many individuals and lives that you've impacted over the years. So it's really a a privilege and honor to kind of be with you today. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 42:49

Thank you for joining the conversation today. If you are seeking help for yourself or a loved one, please reach out to our Feinberg Consulting Team at 248-538-5425. That's 248-538-5425, and check out our website at feinbergcare.com. I'm grateful for our guests and all who have joined us today. Make sure you follow us on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you listen to podcasts.