Borrowed Bones

Ma Barker and the Karpis-Barker Gang

• Episode 2

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Hello, everyone. I'm Sarah, and I'm Cole, and you're listening to Borrowed Bones. It's a podcast about fucked up families and familial relationships. Whether you're related by blood or by bond, we can all agree that families bring us up and tear us down. 

We're here to dust off those skeletons and take a closer look at what we hide away. One day I'll have that memorized. Today's not that day. Anyway. This is our second episode. Yay! Yay. But Sophomore. Slump. Hopefully not. 

Yeah. But yeah, I'm excited that we're doing this episode. We just published our first one. And so we're looking at being about two to three weeks behind. So if we talk about any current events or anything like that, we're about, like I said, two to three weeks, maybe a month. if I get really good at batching, hopefully we're a month behind, but right now I'm a little excited. 

So just publishing as we go. Yeah. Alrighty. What are we learning about today? What fucked up family? [00:01:00] Yeah, today we are learning about the Karpis Barker gang, kind of run by Ma Barker. Ma Barker, okay. Yeah. What, what era of history are we talking about? Old West? More recent? A little in between. 

Yeah, so it's Old West ish, and a little bit more modern than the Hatfields and McCoys, but we kind of start In the latter time of the Hatfields and McCoy's like late 1800s into the 1930s. Okay 1930s. That's where we're vibing with right here. So I'm gonna start with Ma Barker. 

She was born as Arizona or Arizona with an E at the end. Not really sure which one but she was born as Arizona Ari Donnie Clark. Her nickname was Ari. She was born in 1874 in Missouri. Oh, home of, the James gang. Yeah, the Jameses, the Youngers, the Daltons. Missouri's the [00:02:00] hotbed state of, outlaws. I was curious, because a lot of this kind of overlaps, and I do think that the gang, like her sons, were very inspired by the Old West. 

You can kind of see a lot of that overlapping. Jesse, James Younger. so the, the Jameses and the youngers started in Missouri right as the Civil War ended right after, their first, it's like 1860s. Yeah. The first, robbery by the James Younger gang was February of 1866. 

And they're all Oh, after. Okay. Confederate. Ex Confederate guerrillas, that kind of, you know, parlayed that, and Missouri, I think, because it was kind of on the, you know, it was the gateway to the West. So that was like the cusp of the frontier, and that's kind of, it was that transition from the Old West, or from the Wild West to obviously the East Coast, so the families there were more hardscrabble and led to the development of So many outlaw games. 

It makes a lot of sense. We just went to new mexico a couple weeks ago for cole's 40th birthday. Sorry to ouch you [00:03:00] on that But yeah, the big four. Oh, And I couldn't help but think because I was already researching ma barker and all of this And I didn't realize how close to the old west and wild west they really were Seeing all the Billy the Kid stuff and everything made me think, wow, this pretty much overlaps quite a bit. 

So, I do think that her sons were, they, I think they grew up listening to these stories. Okay. Which is pretty interesting. Probably read the dime novels, and yeah, Wide Awake Library stories about Outlaws from the West and yeah, maybe they didn't read I don't think they're very literate, but they at least heard about them Yeah, there's the oral tradition folk stories. 

So anyway, Arizona or Arizona First it doesn't matter anyway, cuz she gets nicknames cuz that's how it was back then So she had a nickname of Ari, but then Ari turned to Kate I don't know why. Half the women back then were nicknamed Kate for some reason. Yeah, who knows. 

 Throughout this story, I'm going to call her Kate, and then Ma. That's the same person. Ma. Kate's mother, , was Emmeline, and her dad [00:04:00] was John. And John died, or left, By like 1885, so Kate was about 10 or 11 years old. Okay. 

And then after her dad left or died, the family moved to, Lawrence County, Missouri. Just another spot in Missouri. They were poor. Okay. Yeah. Living off the land? Just kind of, yeah. Going about, drifting about. 

Not well to do? Not Nope. Yeah, they're just kind of making their way. And then in 1892, Kate was 18 now, and she married George Barker. Hence her married name. And here we go. Yep, so now they, she's Barker, and they moved to Aurora, Missouri. And that's Wait a minute, she was, 92? 1892 and she was born. Okay, so she was 18. 

Yeah 18 You checking my math? No, I was checking her age at first I thought she was like 14 when she got married then I was like, no, I I did the math in my head and she's right 18. Yeah. All right And then they moved to aurora, missouri where they had their four boys And [00:05:00] the older three boys attended grade school The younger one never really went they moved around quite a bit. 

So I think that was kind of part of it her oldest son was named Herman. Herman. He was born in 1893. Lloyd was born in 1897. Arthur, who also went by doc, was born in 1899. And Fred the youngest and the biggest mama's boy was born in 1901. 

So it's a baby. Mm hmm. Fred. . And it's just the four boys. Is there, are there any other sisters, or Okay. Gotcha. She's the ultimate Boy mom. Okay. That is who she is. That is how she identifies and she loves it. 

 The oldest son Herman, he was fascinated by the Old West. He loved Jesse James and the Youngers. Okay. Yeah. And they. All everything like you said happened right where they were living. So they heard all about it. They loved it and I walked through the towns that they robbed and could probably [00:06:00] point out things and they probably still saw gunshots and you know Things like that from that time. 

Everyone kind of knew everyone so You probably talking to old timers who? Knew the jameses or the youngers or you know Yeah, I think so. So, so he was really into that. the oldest brother, so I'm sure he influenced the Youngers. Yeah, no pun intended. 

Hey, here's a pun. I am named after Cole Younger, the eldest of the Younger Brothers. Oh yeah, I always forget that. You should do that episode. First American bank robber. I'll leave that research up to you. That's a fucked up family. Well, isn't it? Well, they're outlaws. Anyway, we're focusing on this family right now. 

Back to the Barkers. So then, fast forward a little bit to March of 1915. All right. We're in Webb City, Missouri, or Joplin, Missouri. I don't know. Honestly, in the early years of them, there's some reports of things, but there's not a lot of really great reporting. So we're in Missouri. [00:07:00] 1915. First years of the gang no one pays attention to. 

Exactly. They become a problem. Right. So Herman is 22 years old, and he and another guy, they held up five men that were playing cards behind a grocery store. And Rob the dice game, kinda. Right, but I also see that in 1915 he was charged for highway robbery, but they both are the same date. So I have two stories, but he's arrested once. 

So this is one of those messy reports. Some of those charges can be worded weirdly, like highway robbery could be some kind Technical legal jargon. Okay. And not necessarily mean that he was, that he robbed somebody on a highway. Okay? It could be some, like if you dine and dash today in Michigan, the charge is defrauding an innkeeper. 

Are you serious? That's what you're charged with. If you dine and and dash, it's not larceny or theft. so if someone dies and dashes on me, I'm a bartender. And if you know who they are and they get charged, the charge they would face is defrauding an innkeeper because the law was written in like an 1837 or something. 

Oh, I love [00:08:00] that. I don't ever want that to change. Yeah. So, okay. So, yeah, so he did, he robbed someone for some money on that day in March of 1915, and he was arrested. However, he was released because there just wasn't enough evidence to hold him. 

Soon after that was when the family moved to Tulsa, Oklahoma, okay, fresh start type of thing so Herman gets arrested for something and released and now we're moving ahead. This is 1915 

Okay. Unfortunately the fresh start was to no avail All four of her boys ended up joining a gang and then the life of crime began. All right. Kate, the mom, George, the dad, they did not value traditional education. Really, they were more of the religious type. 

the Barkers were a little bit poorer, like we said, so they just didn't really care about. Schooling. The kids either needed to work, or they needed to make their way, or Kate was a church goer, and she preferred to teach the lessons of the [00:09:00] Lord herself to her kids. 

they were very influenced by sporadic revivals. Okay. Is that like the tent churches? Yeah, yeah, yeah, the old school, the Speaking in tongues and stuff like that? Yeah, the, what's the term I'm thinking of? Evangelical? Pentecostal. Yeah, signs and wonders and feeling the spirit move you from within and jumping and clapping and 

Kate like to go to those churches. I don't think they were a very moral family speaking gibberish It must be an angel anyway Well, through all this, they needed some excitement because it sounds like the dad and husband George, he just wasn't that anything. 

Hey, the revivals had to be fun. I mean, they were entertaining. Well, so, so George Barker, the husband, he was pretty easy to walk all over. He was described as a shiftless individual. He, ended up staying in Missouri and ran a small filling station. After his wife and kids left for Oklahoma, he [00:10:00] just stayed behind? 

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. He was like, I don't, I'm done. 

Family basically got more into crime and he was like, I just don't care. So George just wants to live a quiet life He didn't really want anything to do with his family, but they actually Kate and George never got divorced officially well They separated. 

Yeah. Across state lines. Never got divorced. Yeah. 

George and Kate ended up parting ways in 1928 with never divorcing, right? With never divorcing 1928. Yes. so we're fast forwarding from 1915. Herman got arrested release, they moved to Tulsa. 

And then they ended up parting ways in 1928, where George went to Missouri and had his filling station. This is when the depression would have started factoring in. . Yes Yeah, the big stuff didn't happen until the depression hit. Okay, but they're just kind of a criminal family already in 1928, when George and Kate parted ways, that was the same year that their sons, all of them, 

received prison sentences. Oh. All four [00:11:00] in the same year? Yes. 

For running with some gang? Yep. Okay. all for like different things, little petty stuff at this point. , the boys just started out small, burglaries, and then there was like a car theft at one point that they did, but nothing violent or anything like that yet. Arthur or Doc. That's the third one. 

Yes. Yes. And Fred, the youngest, ended up joining juvenile criminals known as the Central Park Gang in Oklahoma. Oh. So that's how they sort of got their start. Not to be confused with Central Park, New York City. Exactly. I know. That's what I thought too. That could be confusing. Yeah. And then in February of 1922, I know we're jumping a little. 

I just wanted us to get George. Barker the dad out of the picture. We know that he's no longer a part of it. We're done with him So February of 1922 Arthur doc Barker is sentenced to prison for life. Oh for what? He murdered a night watchman during a botched robbery. Okay, do you know what he was trying to rob?[00:12:00] 

I read that it was a hospital Oh, and I couldn't find why or what or if that was real money. I have no idea. Yeah, a lot of raw cash Maybe drugs. I don't know but Yes, but you can still buy cocaine and Sears Roebuck at that time I think So that was kind of going on he was in prison for a little bit for that and so now let's talk about how the gang was formed So these brothers are kind of doing their own thing. 

They're not really a gang yet. Separately, they're doing their own, different ages obviously, they're with their respective peers. Right, they're all just kind of little shits, but just independent of each other. Herman, the oldest, he never got to be a part of the gang. He was in and out of jail for all these things, you know, little things that we mentioned. 

one time that he was out of jail, he ended up getting into a shootout with police. During a failed robbery and Herman shot a police officer in the [00:13:00] mouth, and then he turned the gun on himself and he successfully completed suicide He died in 1927 in Kansas So there's only, like, the three brothers that are, like, really in the gang? 

Because the one died? Well, let's talk about Lloyd now. That's number two. Lloyd is number two. He was also never Just advanced to number one. Yep. But he was also never part of the gang. Oh. the gang didn't really start until, like I said, like, the early, super early 30s. And so Lloyd was, in 1932, he began a 25 year sentence for mail robbery. 

Okay. What is mail robbery? Like, how do you get a 25 year prison sentence for mail robbery? Often, okay, so this is a little bit later, but in the, like, 1880s, when stage coaches were robbed, they were often carrying mail. The mail would be robbed, because people would send money and trinkets, valuables. 

But because it was interstate travel, [00:14:00] just like today, like if you robbed a postman, that's a much more serious crime than if you robbed a pizza delivery guy. Okay, so they pretty much like threw the book at him then. They're like, F you, don't do that, bad. Okay, that makes sense. But he wasn't released until 1947. 

And then two years after his release, he was shot and killed by his wife. Nice. So he missed the whole He was in lockup for the whole And then he died in 1949, and like, that was it. So there's that. So we have the two brothers. Alright. So. And Ma, of course. 

So Fred Barker, the youngest brother, He was in jail in 1927 for something stupid. This is where he meets Alvin Creepy Karpis. He's known as Creepy due to his menacing smile. How do you spell his last name? K A R P I S All you're gonna do when you look him up is just find like his mugshots. 

Yeah, well. [00:15:00] He's not unattractive. It looks like every guy's mugshot from this era. Every guy that was arrested and you know, I'll post it. I'll post it on my blue sky account. Okay Borrowed bones that blue sky social. Thank you so Fred and Alvin Karpis, they ended up being released around the same time and then they ended up going right back into crime. 

They Both got caught again when they were stealing jewelry together How are they so bad like you think? Yeah, I always think back to like how easy It must have been in relation to the surveillance state we currently live in where everything you just assume there's a camera everywhere and everything you do But like back then like why didn't everyone commit like how did you get caught? 

like Unless anyone's like actually looking at you as you're doing it. No They were yeah, they were caught and this was in 1931 that they were caught again And at this point the youngest one fred is now 30 years old. Jesus [00:16:00] You're too old to be that bad at crime in an era when? Just don't do that crime when someone's looking at you do it. 

Hey Fred might not even ever he might not have ever even gone to grade school Remember the first three got grade school. Yeah, he might not have even had that anyway So while they were serving their second little stint in jail together or prison, whatever This is when they started to have the idea of forming a gang. 

Okay I think Fred Barker. I think he escaped from jail I don't really know It doesn't seem like anyone looked that hard for him if he did, but I also saw that he was unexpectedly released or so Whatever. He got out of jail behavior. He got out , And then Karpis was released soon after that, admitting guilt to his part in the jewelry heist as well, 

 After Karpis was released, he went to meet up with Fred in Thayer, Missouri. So another city in Missouri. They just keep moving around Missouri, all Kansas, Oklahoma, and he was living with his mom, Ma [00:17:00] Barker, and her new friend, Arthur Dunlop. Hmm. Yes. There's two Arthurs now. 

Yes. So we'll just call him Dunlop. Okay. Yeah. Um, Dunlop also was kind of a pushover. Like, Ma and the Barker gang, they're not gonna have some patriarchal thing happening here. No, no, no. The boys have control. Ma's there to, like, help as well. Eventually, the Barker gang does end up murdering Arthur Dunlop, 

they think that he, tipped off the police to some of their crimes. So they just kind of, well, you're done. Ma says she doesn't know what happened, but I think she knows. Yeah. Anyway, we have Fred Barker, who went home to Ma, and Karpis followed. Alright. 

 Now we're just waiting for one more addition. Arthur Dock. 

 Who was serving a life sentence, he ends up getting released, in 1932. And the boys ended up greasing the right palms for that one. All right. So that's how he got out. Now the [00:18:00] gang is formed. We have the Karpis Barker gang, or the Barker Karpis gang, or the Ma Barker gang. 

Gotcha. There's the four of them. Ma Barker kind of counts, but I would say there's three. Okay. Three. We have Alvin. Muscle. Yeah. Alvin Karpis, Arthur Dock, and Fred. Okay. During its prime, the gang did have about 25 members that moved within their network. Gotcha. And they actually kind of rubbed shoulders with people that they never really directly dealt with, like Babyface Nelson or Dillinger or anyone like that, but they had people in their gang that Yeah. 

We're in those other gangs as well. Yeah. The chain gang is active. Yeah. So it all kind of overlapped, which I think is kind of cool. The public enemy's era of the, yeah, post Depression, 30s, the Dillinger's, and Yeah, kind of the last of like the Wild West sort of vibe. Yeah, the transition from horses to early cars. 

So, the Barker gang, they mainly did bank [00:19:00] robberies, as was in fashion at the time, especially in the early 30s with the Depression. 

 Their first murder It was the middle of the night when Fred, Karpis, and another gang member, they were all driving around Randolph County, Arkansas. They were just looking for places to rob. Apparently that's something to do on a night out, and they ended up stopping, so they had to go to the bathroom, and the chief of police at the time, Manly Jackson, he was acting as a night marshal. 

The guy's first name is Manly? Yep, Manly Jackson. Manly Jackson. That's the manliest name ever, Manly Jackson? Yes. He was acting as the night marshal, and he began writing down the license plate number of their vehicle because it looked suspicious. This is when he was kidnapped by the gang. Manly was forced by Fred at gunpoint to get into the car. 

He was then driven to a nearby quarry, and then he was shot four times and killed. Oh. Yeah. That's involved. Why kidnap the cop? [00:20:00] Why not just shoot him there and flee? Shouldn't we find him and go? Manly was found the next day. Like, they didn't try to hide him or anything. They just took him somewhere else and, his end of watch was Sunday, November 8th, 1931. 

Okay. So he was their first, I guess, known victim. First homicide victim. Yeah, first homicide. Yeah. The murder ended up being pinned on two local men. So no one ever searched for them for this murder. Town drunk did it. Or something. Yeah, there were two local men that were already convicted of other crimes and one man actually ended up confessing and then he has since like taken it back multiple times but they were like, you confessed once, you got it. 

Yeah. So that's a little sad. Man, how things have changed. Yeah. And we know that the Barker gang did do it and isn't just like claiming it because Alvin Karpis ends up writing an autobiography later in life and he attributed the murder to Fred Barker. Oh. Yeah, okay. 

That's so interesting. Yeah, so they did that. Two months [00:21:00] later, another murder. They have Sheriff C. Roy Kelly of Howell County, Missouri. Another cop. Yes. He was shot and killed by two members of the Barker gang while investigating their suspicious car. They're always driving around suspiciously and he was acting as a night watch or something at the time, too 

These aren't even like they're not killed during robberies they're not like collateral damage of like a bank teller would like they're killing them just Just for the hell of it, seemingly. Yeah, because they're getting close to them, I guess. Yeah. So, Sheriff C. Roy Kelly's end of watch was December 19th, 1931. 

After that murder, the gang did flee to St. Paul, Minnesota. Oh. So they went up. Yep. Oh, yeah. Well, back then, that's where a lot of them, that's where a lot of the gangsters went. Apparently that was like a hub and a safe haven. I didn't know that until researching this. they ended up meeting more seasoned criminals and the gang [00:22:00] really shaped up at that point. 

Got some new recruits. Yeah. between 1932 and 1935 was a About the time frame of all this gang's everything they do They robbed dozens of banks and they dipped into even kidnapping for ransom The two kidnappings were really what elevated. Yes This is what elevated their status, and this is how they became the focus of the Bureau Investi, the Bureau of Investigation, which then later is formed into the Federal Bureau of Investigation, FBI. So they started with no FBI. Mm-hmm . And then when they end there is an FBI. 

Okay. I always just find that kind of stuff. Interesting. the first kidnapping is, the kidnapping of William A. 

Hamm Jr. on bill Hamm. Bill Hamm. Gotcha. On June 15th, 1933. The Carpa Barker [00:23:00] gang kidnapped William Abraham Jr. He was the president and heir to the Ham Brewing Empire in St. Paul, Minnesota. Okay, so he is an adult. They didn't like kidnap a a child. Oh, no, no, no. He was like, okay. 

Leader of it all. Yes. So it was a nice summer evening when William was leaving the office or Bill. He was grabbed by four shadowy figures and pushed into the back of a car. Ham was then taken to Wisconsin, where he was forced to sign four ransom notes. He was then moved to a hideout in Illinois, where he was held prisoner until the ransom was paid. 

How much was the ransom that was paid? It was for 100, 000. Damn! At that time. Yeah, so with inflation Yeah. I have it somewhere in like the millions. Yeah, of course. Yeah. I found, an old newspaper that actually reported on the kidnapping. 

And it was the Twin Cities Pioneer from 1933. This is the information [00:24:00] I got from the article. It was a little hard to read because it had been photocopied so much. But it said that the first news of the kidnapping was received at 5 p. m. Thursday by William Dunn, the ham brewery manager. Mr. 

Dunn received a call and the caller said, We've kidnapped Mr. Ham. You will hear from us later. I feel like I'm telling a story to my kids when I'm a nanny. I used to be a nanny and I would always tell stories. Anyway, so yeah, we've kidnapped Mr. Ham and you will hear from us later. Alright. The following morning, Dunn received a ransom note. There was a taxi driver that told the police that a man approached him and asked him to deliver the note to Mr. Dunn. So, the gang used the taxi driver as like a middle man, and they paid him 2 to do that, which is 48 in today's money. 

Yeah. And the note stated that Ham was being held for 100, 000. And if the money was not paid, that [00:25:00] Ham would be killed. 

 That comes out to about 2. 4 million dollars. Wow. Yeah. And they paid the guy 48 bucks out of that 2 million? Well, they didn't have that 2 million yet. Oh, not yet. That was an investment on their part. They're hoping to get that back. Yeah. And attached to the note was a postscript signed by Mr. 

Ham who was urging immediate payment. And the note demanded the payment be in denominations of fives, tens, and twenties. The note continued to say that the payers of the ransom were to use a truck. Twenty's our biggest bill. It's the thirties. Um, then the note continued on to say that They were to use a truck from the brewing company. 

One man was to drive the truck while the truck was to be opened up entirely as well. So the sides or canvas covering that is on those like old timey trucks that they have like this canvas. Yeah, yeah, I know what you're talking about. Yeah. Excuse me Those the canvas covering needed to be removed. 

Okay, so no gunmen were hiding [00:26:00] exactly not a setup Yeah, once the money was handed over ham was released and the plan was executed quickly and perfectly It only took four days and it was done However, what the gang did not know was that there was new fingerprint technology that was on the scene and police were now able to lift fingerprints from surfaces that would, that couldn't be dusted for fingerprints. 

So things like paper and cloth and stuff like that, not like hard surfaces. Yeah, gotcha. I think, I always think of like Ace Ventura when he's dusting the place, um, Is it when nature calls and the bat? Yeah, he's dusting. We don't have to do that anymore. There's another new method where they can figure out, it's like a silver nitrate method is what it's called. 

And they're able to Lift prints from paper. So on those ransom notes were a lot of fingerprints. They didn't know what to do with them yet But they had them. Yeah, so hang on to that. Yes now we're gonna go on to the second kidnapping. The first one went smooth [00:27:00] great Couldn't be better and Ham was returned. 

Ham was returned. No issue. Yep. Everything went smoothly The second kidnapping is where it gets really wonky Not even six months later They target a wealthy banker in st. Paul, Minnesota What are they doing with all of this money? Like why didn't they just stop once they got all that money? Like I'm always amazed at these old like why don't any of them stop? 

Yeah, they they would You know, get a bank of 60, 000 and then three months later they're robbing another bank. I don't know. They didn't live lavishly. They did not. I mean, they got like nice things and Ma for sure enjoyed nice things, but they didn't have huge houses, big cars, anything like that. 

I'm sure guns are probably something, but they definitely weren't spending as much as they were making. Yeah. Definitely not. well, so they, their target this time is a wealthy banker, still from St. Paul, Minnesota. His name was Edward George Bremer, Jr. Another guy that took over for his dad, you know, [00:28:00] most juniors deserve it. 

Yeah, honestly, I don't really feel that bad for them. I'm just gonna say it. I don't they're not hurt. Well, Edward does get a little hurt. Like violence is never the answer. Whatever. But, but I understand I kind of understand where the vigilante Romanticizing idealation of it comes from like I'm kind of romanticizing it right now 

eat the rich. They're gobbling us up. The fact that he's a junior means that he probably didn't do anything himself to warrant his position Right there. It's right in the fucking name yep, 

So they end up targeting Edward George Bremmer and he was kidnapped on January 17th 1934 I'm just gonna give you a quick overview and then we'll get into the details He was kidnapped the 17th of January 1934. He was released three weeks later Yes. That's a lengthy, unlawful imprisonment. 

And [00:29:00] 000 ransom they demanded. Okay. That's around 4. 6 million in today's money. And this guy was just a banker, he didn't have that, the hams, beer fortune. Yeah. Okay. I think the family had other things to, you know, whatever. But, they had the money to give. They did. Yeah. The second kidnapping was written about in pretty great detail by John Edgar Hoover himself. 

Speaking as the FBI director. he wrote a 125 page summary for the department of justice. I'm not going to read it all. I combed through it and I got the big stuff out. Don't worry. I think he cared. I think he cared about this second kidnapping, the Bremer one, because this is ultimately what brought down the Barker gang is this kidnapping right here. 

It's kind of wild. All right, it starts with Bremer, who takes his daughter to school. He takes her to school every single day, so he has a routine that the Barkers end up picking [00:30:00] up on. 

 After one day of dropping his daughter off, she's at school. Bremer was sitting at a stoplight when a gunman approached. He pointed the pistol at him, and then another member of the Barker gang opened the passenger side door and struck Bremmer over the head several times. Okay. Bremmer was then pushed to the floor of the car, and they taped goggles over his eyes so he couldn't see. 

And then around 10. 40am Walter McGee, a close friend of the Bremmer family, received a phone call at his office from a Charles McKee. It's a fake name. Oh, okay. It's the Barker gang. The caller stated that they had Bremmer, and they instructed Mr. 

McGee to go outside his office where he will find a note. Mr. McGee complied, he found a ransom note under a side door of the building, , 

The ransom note said, You are hereby declared on a very desperate undertaking. Don't try to cross us. Your future and bees are the important issue. [00:31:00] Follow these instructions to the letter. Police have never helped in such a spot and won't this time either. They're pretty intense. You better take care of the payoff first and then let them do the detecting later. 

Because the police usually butt in. Your friend isn't none too comfortable now, so don't delay the payment. We demand 200, 000 payment must be in five and 10 bills. They cut out the twenties, no new money, no consecutive numbers, large variety of issues, period, period, period, place the money in two large suit box cartons, big enough to hold the full amount and tie with heavy cord. 

No contact will be made until you notify us that you are ready to pay as we direct. You place an ad in the Minneapolis Tribune as soon as you have the money ready. So they want them to place an ad. Gotcha. Under the personal column, we are ready, Alice. You will then receive your final instructions. [00:32:00] Be prepared to leave at a minute's notice to make the payoff. 

Don't attempt to stall or outsmart us. Don't try to bargain. Don't plead poverty. We know how much they have in their banks. Don't try to communicate with us. We'll do the directing. Threats are not necessary. You just do your part. We guarantee to do ours. And then they have Bremer write, Mr. 

McGee, I have named you as my payoff man. You are responsible for my safety. I am responsible for the full amount of the money. Signed, E. G. Bremmer. Alright. So naturally, Walter immediately called the police. 

They said millions of times not to call the police and then he calls them. So he kind of just fumbles in the beginning. The police, after being called, did what they were supposed to do, they investigated, and they ended up finding Bremmer's car right where the kidnapping occurred. There were bloodstains on the steering wheel, the gearshift, the door sill, floor of the car, and the back of the front seat of the car. 

So blood was kind of everywhere, so they [00:33:00] thought, maybe he's dead. Yeah, I mean They didn't know. Yeah. I mean, let's say you did kill him by accident, you might as well still get try to Yeah, that's true. Try anyway. There have been botched ransoms before where it happens. Yeah. So, might as well. Yeah. Kill them by accident. 

Just. Well, three days later, on January 20th. Dr. Knippert woke to a crash. This is another guy that knows the Bremers that the gang is trying to get a hold of. Doctor didn't really care about the crash that much. He just went about his day until, it wasn't until later in the morning when he received a phone call and the caller told him to go check the front area of his house. 

So the gang was like, Hey, look what we did. And when the doctor went, he saw that a bottle was thrown through the plate glass of his front door. Alright. And then there was an envelope addressed to him under the door. This gets a little confusing. So there's a lot of envelopes and notes here. So they use Dr. 

Nippert for all of these letters. And I tried to make it as concise as I could. [00:34:00] When Dr. Nippert opened up the envelope, he discovered more envelopes. One was to Walter McGee and the other was to his 

wife. The note addressed to Walter was from the Barker gang themselves. And they said, You must be proud of yourself by now. If Bremer don't get back to his family, he has you to thank. You've made it almost impossible, but we were gonna give one more chance. 

The last. First of all, all coppers must be pulled off. Second, the dough must be ready. They've really spoke this way. Oh, it's just so silly. Third, we must have a new signal. When you are ready to meet our terms, place an RRA sticker in the center of each of your office windows. I dunno what that means. I don't know what that means. 

I didn't care to look it up either. something, we'll know if the coppers are pooled or not. Remain at your office daily from noon until [00:35:00] 8:00 PM Have the dough ready and where you can get it. Within 30 minutes, you'll be instructed on how to deliver it. The money must not be hot as it will be examined before Bremmer is released. 

We'll try to be ready. And if We'll try to be ready? Yeah, we'll try to be ready. Alright, you're the ones calling the shots. Yeah, that was a weird I thought that was odd too. I don't know We'll do our best to accommodate you. Some of the What? Some of the words were kind of cut out because it hadn't photocopied a lot. 

It looks like they typed it on a typewriter and then it got, like, weird. But I think they're trying to say we'll try to be ready for any trickery if attempted. Oh, okay. Like, we'll be ready if you're tricking us, I guess? And then, this is positively our last attempt. Don't duck it. And then Bremmer signed it at the end again, to let people know that he's alive still, da da da. 

And then Bremer ends up writing a note to his wife and one to Walter himself. The one to Walter is basically saying, Hey, please don't use the cops, do this alone, listen to them, don't use the [00:36:00] cops. Ten different ways he says, don't call the police. 

Then the one to his wife is just saying, It'll be alright. I'm not dead. I know the blood was concerning in the car. Just do as they say. Again, don't call the police. He's just urging them to not call the police. Gotcha. And then nothing was heard of for a few days after that. So then January 25th, five days later, another person, Mr. 

John Miller, receives a call. They told Miller to go home where he's gonna find a note on his front porch. However, his wife found the note first, and they, now knew that they had instructions. That needed to be delivered to Mr. McGee again, and this time it was the ransom note saying 200, 000. 

Also, they are now involving Bremmer's brother, Adolf. Okay. Yes. They're literally just trying to send this ransom note to anyone who's willing to pay. Maybe no one just likes this guy. Maybe you just picked the wrong fucking guy. Like, no [00:37:00] one likes bankers. Like, everyone pretends to. Yeah. So they're getting this brother involved now, they have this other guy involved, all these friends, all these acquaintances. 

At another point later on I think there's like a priest that they get a note to. It's, it's insane. People like bankers because of their money. So then to hold the banker hostage for money makes no sense. Because the thing we like about him, we have. We have the money. . Yeah. Well, anyway, this note now, that Adolf has, and that Mr. McGee saw and everything, is instructing them to take a bag with the ransom money in it and to bring that bag to Jefferson Line's bus station where they need to check in that baggage. 

 They're going to check the luggage into like a baggage room that's in the bus station. Then upon leaving, they would find a handbag at the station with more instructions for them. And the handbag was not to be opened until 8. 20 p. m. 

. That's specific. Yeah, it's a very specific [00:38:00] time. Walter McGee followed the instructions. He found a black zipper handbag after he got rid of the other bag. The black zipper handbag also had a pillow with a note. the note said that Mr. McGee was to use a fake name and to board a bus leaving St. 

Paul at 840 p. m. to Iowa. now he's on his way to Iowa thinking that this is it He left his bag at the station now. He's gonna go maybe see Bremer and Iowa or something. Who knows? He's not sure Nothing happened. Nothing Investigators ended up learning that there was another ransom note left at the new Hotel Brunswick in Minnesota in another city and There was a man that was dressed like a farmer that ended up telling the man at the hotel that there was a bus from the Twin Cities that would arrive around 1030 PM. 

So the farmer wanted to leave a package with the hotel to give to this passenger. The farmer ended up saying [00:39:00] that the package contained medicine for this future bus traveler. So this hotel's waiting, and they're waiting and waiting, it ends up being a month that no one claims his bag, so nothing happens. 

Who the hell holds onto something for a month? Yeah, this ends up sitting around longer than Bremer's, like, in, in, being kidnapped. They finally open it up after a month, and there was a note that stated that all of the previous instructions were to be cancelled. That's it. All right. 

So the kidnap victim? He's still with them. Oh. Yeah. Now we're going to jump to January 5th, and the whole bus fiasco and everything was January 25th. Now we're jumping ahead. We're jumping back? January 25th was when the bus fiasco happened. Now we're jumping forward to February 5th. Oh, okay. You said January 5th at first. 

That's why I was Sorry. February 5th. February 5th. Okay. Yes, so now we're in February 5th, it's about 11 days later, Bremer's secretary ends up getting a note from a man who came to the back door of her home. So they are [00:40:00] attacking at all sides here, and the note urged that the negotiations proceed in accordance with the instructions outlined by the kidnappers. 

That's all they want us to be listened to. The following day, February 6th, a priest was approached by a man at his home. And the man asked the priest, Do you know the Bremers? The priest said yes. He was handed the note, and the note was then addressed to Adolf. Good thing it was a man that approached the priest, not a boy. 

Yeah, right? Things could have gone sideways. Very quick. . Come into my rectory, boy. Anyway. The note was addressed to Adolf, Bremer's brother. in the note it said that the coppers jimmed the last payoff. 

And then it gave more instructions for another way to hand off the money the FBI agents recorded the serial numbers this time on all of the bills. And then in compliance with the note, Walter McGee, on February 6th, he obtained a Ford sedan with the 200, 000 of ransom money in it, [00:41:00] in the fives and the tens that they asked for. 

He drove to University Avenue, St. Paul, Minnesota, which is where they wanted him to be, at 8 p. m. Walter then saw a parked car, a Chevy coupe, with Shell Oil Company signs on each door. Okay. Walter transferred the money from his sedan and entered the Chevy coupe. The coupe was empty, and in the left front door pocket of the Chevy coupe, Walter found keys and a note directing him to deliver the ransom money. 

The note said, Go to Farmington, Minnesota. The Rochester bus will arrive there at 9. 15. Leave at 9. 25 PM. Follow 100 yards in back of this bus. Okay, this letter was typed very awkwardly by whoever wrote it, the Barker gang. 

 He's asking for Walter, to go to Farmington, Minnesota. Go to the bus station. See the bus that will arrive at 9. 15. The bus will then leave at 9. 25. Follow the bus but stay far [00:42:00] back. As you follow the bus, turn on the first road to the left and proceed at 15 miles per hour until you see five flashes of lights. 

Then stop and deposit the packages of money on the right hand side of the road. Leave the two notes, get in the car, and go straight ahead. This is ridiculously complicated. It is. Walter did it, though. and it's done. The ransom was now paid, and on February 7th at 8pm, Edward Bremmer was released in Rochester, Minnesota. 

I kinda hoped they were gonna kill him anyway, so it was all just kind of No. Nope, happy ending. He was released and the gangsters told Bremmer to get out of the car in the middle of the street, stand with his back toward the direction in which the abductors were heading, so he couldn't see where they turn, , and then he was to count slowly to 15, after which he could remove the bandages that were over his eyes 

This feels like movie stuff. It's very complicated After the Bremers returned home safely, he told investigators everything that he could remember. Bremer did a really good job at like helping out . He was able to tell them [00:43:00] about the wallpaper that was inside. 

He was able to tell them he could hear traffic, he could hear kids playing, and he could hear dogs barking. So that kind of narrowed them down a little bit to where they were looking at. 

 Now the investigators are going in full force. And on February 8th, a day later, the agents ended up retracing Walter's steps, like the route that he took during the ransom, to see if they could find anything. They did end up finding flashlights, and I didn't know this, but vintage flashlights at the time had specific things about them. 

the report that I read said that this flashlight had red filmolens, which, when I looked it up, is not a thing. But this one report different spelling or something, right? Something's off. So I don't know. It looks like vintage flashlights used to have specific lenses or specific sort of colors to certain things. 

And that's how you knew who made it. [00:44:00] Yeah. Like what or where it was manufactured. Yes, the manufacturing where it was sold through. So, I mean, back then in the twenties and thirties, even the fifties, it was easy to kind of trace where things were because you're not buying everything on fucking Amazon 

so they were able to trace where these flashlights came from in the store that sold them. When they went to the store, they asked the clerk if she remembered seeing anyone showed some pictures and she was like, Oh yeah, I know that guy. And she recognized Alvin Karpis. 

 This clerk was able to connect Alvin Karpis directly to the flashlight, which was then connected directly to the kidnapping of Bremmer. So they have one solid lead right away. Implicated by a flashlight. Yeah, a flashlight. , they did really good detective work back then, I think. You had to. When they wanted to, anyway. 

Well, yeah. A few days after that, February 10th, there was the sheriff of Columbia County, [00:45:00] Wisconsin who found four gas cans in a tin funnel that had fingerprints all over the cans. 

 They were able to lift fingerprints from the cans, connect them to the fingerprints from the ransom notes from previously, and they knew that they were Arthur Dock Barker's fingerprints. Now they had Arthur connected directly and Alvin Karpis directed connect directly connected directly connected. 

This is in the evening time. We are both tired and I had a margarita. It's fine. 

And then do you remember those serial numbers that I mentioned kind of quickly that the police jotted down? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. During the second ransom, so in late April of 1934, the serial numbers started to be reported by banks in the Chicago area 

 It'd been a little over a month since release of Bremer. And, this is when the FBI started receiving all this information. They're kind of looking in [00:46:00] Chicago, they're closing in on that, but also what's happening in the background, is Fred and Ma Barker are now in Florida. 

And Fred ends up asking a hotel manager in Miami about a quiet place to live. And the manager tells him of a nice little cottage for rent nearby Lake Weir in Florida. Fred and Ma move in, in November. this is November of 1934. Fred's not, he doesn't have a girlfriend or anything? I think there are some girls in there. 

He's just with his mom, traveling the country? No, I think there are some women and kids and stuff involved at some point. We just don't care, like, that's not about them. And from what I did read, Ma Barker was always a little jealous. And didn't really treat. The partners that great like I think they had flings and partners and stuff. 

It just didn't matter. So fred and ma end up moving into that cottage in november while Fred and Ma are making moves, Arthur Dockbarker, he's still trying to evade capture, but [00:47:00] he's the one in Chicago being real dumb. So In December of 1934, the FBI tracked down Dockbarker, and early January of 35, He was arrested in Chicago. 

Yeah, that's where they got Dullinger too. Oh, I don't really know much about Dullinger. Cause he was just shot coming out of a movie theater. Gunned him down. But Doc ended up being sentenced to life in prison at Alcatraz. And I'm going to follow this thread a little bit because his end of life is interesting. 

While he was in Alcatraz, Doc was known as one of the worst troublemakers and agitators ever to be had on the rock. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's saying a lot. Yeah, I know. That's really impressive. Yeah. Yeah. The shit rose to the top. He was sentenced in 1935 and then on January 13th, 1939, he's only in there for four There's five men, including Doc, that escape from their cell house, and a guard notices [00:48:00] them in the middle of the night that the bars of those cells are all Cut off, 

 And then the bars of a window were also cut off and the drop from that window was about eight feet to the ground so survivable for sure and Eventually though by not even sunrise Doc and all the men were found. Yeah, I knew there was I know the famous story of three guys who did escape and never showed up. 

It wasn't them. It wasn't that when you're like, there's five guys, I'm like, this isn't the same case then. Nope. Nope. I think the plan was to build a raft or something, but they just couldn't get their shit together. I mean, it was, that's hard. I mean, the fact they got out at all is impressive. 

Doc did resist arrest, and he was fired upon by the guards, and he didn't die immediately, but he did end up dying later that evening from the wounds. Oh, so he was mortally wounded. Yeah, and it was Friday the 13th, which is interesting, and he, on his deathbed, was quoted as saying, I am crazy as hell. I should never have tried it. 

It was a pretty good last words. What was he referring to? The escape attempt specifically? I don't know. Or his whole life of crime? Or just coming out of [00:49:00] the womb? I'm guessing the escape attempt. But I like to think the whole life of crime. Okay. So that's what's going on. Down to one. Well, I guess there's two alive, but one's in jail already. 

Yeah. There's two more Barker gang members. The three core. We still have Alvin. I was thinking of the brothers, but the ones. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. Three days later, after Doc's death, January 16th, a team of agents surrounded Fred and Ma Barker's cottage in Lake Weir. Wait a minute, after Doc's death or arrest? 

Sorry, not death, arrest. Okay. Oh man, it's a struggle today. Y'all we came from vacation and I'm not ready to be back yet, but here we are. Anyway, January 16, 1935, three days after Doc's arrest, a team of agents surrounded Fred and Ma Barker's cottage in Lake Weir and they found the hideout. They discovered where the hideout was when they were arresting another member of the gang, they went into his apartment and they found A map of Florida with [00:50:00] like we're circled So like I think we should go look there So they went there yeah, they surrounded the cottage around 5 a. m. And the agents demanded the Barker's surrender Fred and Ma are the only ones inside the cottage They said hey surrender. 

They waited 15 minutes. No response. They called out again waited 15 minutes No response called out yet again waited 15 minutes still nothing So naturally, the agents throw tear gas into the house. And this is when someone from inside the house yelled, Alright, go ahead! That a machine gun fire blasted out of the upstairs window. 

Machine guns. There's a lot of machine guns during this time. Why don't we see them more? Well, there was a ban. Don't take my guns. Yeah. What do you mean a ban? There was a Well, this is decades later, but Clinton signed a machine gun ban that was effective. It had to be Clinton that Oh my god. Anyway. They did. 

There were Bring machine [00:51:00] guns back. There was a ban. There was something done against Tommy guns specifically because they were like viewed as like the gun of the bank robber. You'll never take me alive, coppers. Well those are intense as hell. Those are great. The two handed with the round, the ammo drum. 

Yeah, those have been So easy a girl can use it. That's what I want. Anyway, bring it back, bring it back. There's plenty of machine guns, we just call them assault rifles now. An assault rifle is a machine gun. I don't care, I want the Tommy gun. Anyway. When they hear someone yell, all right, go ahead. 

Machine gun starts blasting. Now all the shooting lasts for about an hour and by 10 30 AM, all the firing had stopped. Both Ma and Fred Barker were dead. Ma Barker was 61 or 62 years old at the time, and Fred was 34 years old. Now, after the shootout at Lake Weir, there was a bit of controversy. A [00:52:00] woman was shot and killed by the FBI. 

 How, horrible of that happening. Yeah, it's not going to be the last time. Well, at the time in the 30s, people still cared about chivalry and being whatever. So, to cover up this little FBI snafu, J. Edgar Hoover made Ma Barker out to be more than she was. She's got to paint her as the villain, the ogress. 

Yeah, there's a reason that I killed a woman, you know, so he made it seem like she was the criminal mastermind and that she was the one planning everything and that she was directly involved in the kidnappings and the murders and the robberies and she did all this stuff when that just was not the case. 

We know this. Like, she Again, ultimate boy mom. She sheltered them, allowed them to be whatever they wanted, looked the other way, turned the cheek, took the money. 

Even Alvin Karpis in his autobiography that he does later, um, He says that Kate Barker was gullible, easily led, simple, and generally law abiding. The idea that she was the mastermind was the most [00:53:00] ridiculous story in all of crime. He was like, nah, it's bullshit. That's not the truth. She was a dumb old lady. 

Now, the other big ol fish was Alvin Karpis. He was the last of the big ones of the Barker gang to get. And in April of 1936, a Tennessee Senator complained about Director J. Edgar Hoover when Hoover was asking for more funds. The Senator said to Hoover, after he asked for funds, asked, How many arrests have you made? 

So this You know, because Hoover is never one to have a big ego, of course, he was never wrong about anything ever in his mind. He vowed to himself to be a part of the next big one. Because that's good. This is a photo op. Did they bring him? 

Oh, yeah, some arrest and have a photo taken after the guy was taken into custody. Did they do that? Later that month, he ended up getting his shot. The FBI heard word that Karpis [00:54:00] was hiding out in New Orleans. Hoover flew in that night. He joined the raiding team. 

They were staking out Karpis apartment. And then the following day, Karpis and two others got into a car and Hoover and his men closed in. Hoover directed that Karpis be cuffed. Why wouldn't you want to cuff this person yourself? He was a germophobe too. He was a very meticulous person. 

He did not like physically to be around dirt. Gross. He was fastidious. It turns out that no one could cuff him anyway because no one thought to bring handcuffs. They ended up using one of the agent's neckties. Oh my god. Yeah, Karpis was also sentenced to life in prison at Alcatraz He was paroled in the late 1960s though at 61 years old and he was the longest serving inmate of Alcatraz Oh, yeah, he died in 1979 at the age of 72 No But he did live [00:55:00] quite a long time and yeah, and that's the end of the Karpis Barker gang I think Ma Barker gets a little too much credit for being a part of it all. 

I think she just benefited from it quite a bit, but I think it's a big warning to all you boy moms out there that, like, your sons can do wrong, and please correct them. It's kind of similar to, to kind of bring this full circle, but, when the Pinkerton Detective Agency raided the ranch house of Jesse and Frank James's mom, and threw a bomb in, and only succeeded in ripping off her arm and killing their younger brother. 

And the Pinkertons try to paint her as like this the mastermind of their gang which is not true at all Yeah, well, we'll step out from the Old West for a little bit here our next episode Will be a little more modern dipping into like the 50s 60s 70s and more on like the Colorado California kind of side of things. 

So I promise we don't only, we're not only obsessed with the old west, but we kind of are too. Public enemies. This was an old west era. This is a [00:56:00] different era. Yeah. Yeah. It's getting a little bit newer ish, you know, the Tommy guns and the coppers and the little ransom notes. Yeah, the romantic side of it. 

Yeah, so thanks for listening. I, we do have a Blue Sky account because I deleted everything else because the world is scary out there. So if you want to follow the podcast we are Borrowed Bones on Blue Sky or Borrowed Bones Podcast. It's kind of hard to search on that app I gotta be honest with you. 

Um, but keep going, keep trying. The more that Go. The more it will grow. Also, my personal blue sky is daughter of marauders. I will never get rid of that name. It was my insta. Now it's my blue sky. Good name. Yeah. So thank you. And I hope to get some new followers soon. Yeah. Bye. 

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