Borrowed Bones
Families build you up, tear you down, and sometimes drag you into something truly unhinged. Borrowed Bones unearths the bizarre, toxic, and fascinating stories of family dynamics gone sideways. From the macabre to the just plain strange, we’re digging deep to uncover the skeletons hiding in the closets of history, culture, and beyond.
Borrowed Bones
Borrowed Words 2
Our second installment of Borrowed Words has us talking about past presidents, prohibition, and admitting that sometimes, we just don't know.
Sources:
Sentence Stack, Bored Panda, Library of Congress, Symbolism and Metaphor, Word Origins, Phrase Finder, The Cooking Facts, Flavor Inside, History.com.
E-Mail the show at BorrowedBonesPodcast@proton.me
Hello everyone.
Speaker 2:Hey, out there.
Speaker 1:I'm Sarah.
Speaker 2:And this is Cole.
Speaker 1:And you're listening to Borrowed Words.
Speaker 2:Oh, we're doing a different one today.
Speaker 1:Yep that's our second one a series on the etymology of words and phrases.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, interesting. I have not prepared any this time.
Speaker 1:Nope, nope, I did all the preparation. I'll have you guess what they are before I talk about it and we'll see how right or wrong you are.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Because you like to do a lot of this and I like to speculate.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I wonder how this would have realistically come up, how could this were a phrase?
Speaker 1:And then, yeah, then we'll look up to see if we're right or wrong this word or phrase and then, yeah, then we'll look up to see if we're right or wrong yeah, we do this a lot, so I figured let's do it officially instead of when we're just shooting the shit yeah, at the bar a few reminders up top before we get into this.
Speaker 1:We do have an instagram account. I've said it for the last few episodes now. I know early on I was very against it. I still have my own internal conflict with it, but I have it, I'm doing it. I'm in Borrowed Bones podcast on Instagram. Check it out. We still do have a blue sky and I did also make a Patreon. It's a totally new platform and I don't really know what I'm doing, but we do have one subscriber, yay.
Speaker 2:Allison.
Speaker 1:We love you. Sound effects for Allison we're in the big leagues. Yay, I had to. I feel like Allison would like that.
Speaker 2:You got a laser in there somewhere. Laser beam.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I'm getting annoying. Now oh record scratch Well thank you you, allison. Yeah, I'm done with all the sounds now. We appreciate you and, like I said, I don't really know what I'm doing on patreon. I do plan to post a few things on there that won't be on my instagram account. Um, no episodes or anything on patreon that aren't available to everyone, though like all of the episodes will always be available to everyone. This is just extra shits and giggles. If you want to see us do videos, bonus features type stuff right, I'm not really into making a lot of videos.
Speaker 1:I'll do little snippets. You'll see on Instagram. But if you want more video and more content like that, I will do it on Patreon. You have to pay for it, though it's hard for me to do. It takes me a long time to do that and if you want that, then you have to pay me because, again, it takes time and you gotta survive in this world you gotta survive in this capitalist America.
Speaker 1:Gotta love it, love it so much. Well, I do love Allison and anyone else who joins, so that would awesome. I do plan to eventually get some merch out there, starting small with, you know hats and pins, that kind of hats, pins, badges, stickers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, stickers Mm. Hmm, that's cheap.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we'll slowly but surely get there, and it's it's something that we need to work on together. The more you guys help, support us, the more we can give back to you.
Speaker 2:This whole thing has a learning curve, this whole grand experiment that we're doing.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's a lot of fun.
Speaker 2:Mad scientists.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:All right, where are we? What's going on?
Speaker 1:Our first phrase that we're going to talk about Hit me Is.
Speaker 2:What if the phrase was hit me?
Speaker 1:that would be like holy shit it's not sorry, it's raining cats and dogs.
Speaker 2:You know what it means yeah, it's heavy rain, it's, it's, it's a downpour, it's a typhoon. It's just won't let up the rain yeah, downpour, big rainstorm, I don't.
Speaker 1:I had no idea what the origins were.
Speaker 2:I know I looked this up once at one point in my life.
Speaker 1:You did, okay, I never did.
Speaker 2:And that's even worse now because I'm having that lethalogica of the tip of your tongue. But for a whole concept, give me a second here.
Speaker 1:Any guesses?
Speaker 2:All right, well, here's my. This is just a shot in the dark theory okay thinking maybe in the olden days of long, long ago, during heavy rainstorms, dogs and cats, which would be predominantly outside animals, would start like clamoring to get in, maybe begging for shelter to be let in. So heavy rain signals cats and dogs are going to be at the door, at the windows. But that's just my, just an educate, not even an educate, just a guess, just a guess, um it, you're not off entirely okay I found a few theories oh so there's like different trains of thought.
Speaker 2:I like those two, and there's like yes, we're not so there's like different trains of thought. I like those too. And there's like we're not exactly sure there's two or three trains of thought here.
Speaker 1:Yes, there is no real. We don't know exactly.
Speaker 2:No, definitive Nope. This guy coined the term on this date.
Speaker 1:There's even some which this isn't really fun, so I didn't write this in. But there's even some theories that it's just down to old English, that there was old English, that something to the effect of like a catapult was the same word as waterfall. It's raining like a waterfall. It's raining like a catapult or however they pronounced it. So there's that happening there.
Speaker 1:But the two main theories are one in the 16th century england houses had thatched roofs okay where animals would be able to crawl into and stay warm okay and when it rained they would all jump down or get washed down yeah, fall down, whatever okay that one has been proven to not be true, or most likely not be true, just because they're not on the roofs.
Speaker 2:They're just not and like and dogs, maybe cats, but no dogs. Yeah, what dog hides?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah what most likely it is is dead animals like cats and dogs, street animals after a bad rainstorm, because there was poor drainage, so they would get swept away and flooded. So it looked like it had rained cats and dogs oh, that's like it's been raining cats and dogs, and then it turns into more of a it's raining cats and dogs.
Speaker 1:You see the river of dead animal carcasses see they flow down from the sky yeah it's dead animal carcasses, redundant yeah, yeah, you think people died of being swept away in, like that'd be so strange there was people that died being swept away by that molasses river explosion at least that was something different and strange and weird. It's not like oh, there's a rainstorm today, get inside, you might Like that's if it rains hard enough, you're going to well, yeah, floods, but this is such a common phrase.
Speaker 1:I'm assuming it's just a heavy rainstorm, like when we get maybe a couple inches of rain, but because the streets are so poorly drained, everything just fills up, fills up and washes down like a river.
Speaker 2:It just creates a river, every time Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Oh man, that's things you don't think about.
Speaker 2:It's a dirty time to be alive.
Speaker 1:This is a scary time, it's filthy. Ugh, all right, so the next one. We both know this one, so I did this one thinking it would be fun.
Speaker 2:Oh God.
Speaker 1:Pressure one. So I did this one, thinking it would be fun. Oh god, pressure's on, what if I forgot this one? Don't worry, it's okay, all right, blood is thicker than water, oh okay, yes, so blood is thicker than water. When people use that phrase today typically means that the family bond is stronger than the friend bond yeah, like blood meaning family, yes, stronger than those.
Speaker 2:You have a meal with, you have water with, whatever.
Speaker 1:So your blood is thicker than water. All right, do you have an idea of where this came from?
Speaker 2:I believe I looked into this before it was around kind of the opposite, meaning that the blood you shed in battle with your fellow soldiers is thicker than the water in the womb, the amniotic fluid that you would share with a literal sibling, a twin, or just in general. Yeah, yeah. Am I correct in that assessment.
Speaker 1:No, oh shit, right, that's that assessment no. Oh shit Right. That's also what I thought it was too. I thought that as well, until I researched it even further.
Speaker 2:Is it the more boring standard one? We all think it is.
Speaker 1:I mean I'll tell you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's not a yes or no, okay, so you got to strap in for this one. Okay, all right.
Speaker 2:Oh, you got to strap in for this one, okay, all right.
Speaker 1:It is believed that the full phrase is the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb. Exactly what you thought. Okay, However, was that the original phrase?
Speaker 2:I don't know.
Speaker 1:It's not. That's what I discovered. Okay, so the first phrases are from or the first time it's seen really is in Germanic and Scottish Proverbs. Okay, so the first phrases are from or the first time it's seen really is in Germanic and Scottish proverbs.
Speaker 1:Okay, and the earliest reference to the phrase blood is thicker than water is in a German poem in 1180. It's been around for a while. Okay, yeah, so there's different, like iterations of it. Okay yeah, it's been adapted over the centuries More centuries than I would have thought, though I thought it was yeah, so there's different like iterations of it.
Speaker 2:Okay. Yeah, it's been adapted over the centuries, more centuries than I would have thought, though I thought it was, yeah, world War I, not 1100s.
Speaker 1:Yeah, more recent, the quote in 1180 in German says I moreover hear it said family blood isn't demolished by water. So family blood is not demolished by water.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:And the thinking here is that your family ties don't lessen when you separate by an ocean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when you travel, when you go far away, rivers, lakes, oceans doesn't matter.
Speaker 1:So it's still saying that the family blood bond is strong.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So did we get confused there? Maybe, I don't know. Some say that Henry Clay Trumbull wrote that phrase in his writing the Blood of the Covenant in 1885. He does have a chapter that is titled Blood is Thicker Than Water.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:But he never says the entire phrase, as we thought it was with Water of the Womb or anything like that. It's just the chapter title that's it okay now the thought is that over the years, people mixed up another phrase, another arabic phrase that was created independently they don't have anything to do with each other convergent evolution yes, and this one is blood is thicker than milk.
Speaker 2:Meaning milk of the mother.
Speaker 1:So blood of your brother, the blood pact or brother in arms like we were saying that's how they're thinking of it. Yeah, means more than the mother's milk. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So the thought is that, basically, we heard this phrase merged it with blood is thicker than water, created this random blood of the covenants, thicker than water of the womb, or whatever I think, cancel culture. I think, as we got more and more into our society in america, whenever the phrase was turned into the water of the womb, I think we were just sick of being with. Now the next one. I always forget what the origin of this is and I feel like I've asked you before so you might know, but there is quite a bit to this story that I didn't know. Okay, all right, so to 86-something. Something has been 86-ed.
Speaker 1:It's 86-ed. Oh shit. Thing has been 86. Um, it's 86, oh shit. So the meaning of 86 is usually in an industry term. If you're bartending restaurant anything like that, you've 86 an item. That means you're out of it. We don't have it anymore.
Speaker 2:It's gone 86 pickles 86 a person.
Speaker 1:You kick them out you kick them out or you stop serving them.
Speaker 2:Okay, I don't remember.
Speaker 1:I know I always forget this one too, because it's weird. It's weird, so let me tell you the story of 86.
Speaker 2:This is a story. Is this the grave depths or dimensions? Okay, yes, listen up.
Speaker 1:Kind of Not really, but it's a theory.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:It's one of them. So this one took me longer than I expected, because this was quite a ride. Like I said, we typically hear it in restaurants and bars today 86, this 86, that I mean. There's even boards that you have in the kitchen in the back that have 86 on them. There's a list of hopefully not a long one, but a list of what's missing or what you don't have or what you ran out of Gotcha. The term dates back to the 1930s, when soda jerks became more popular and they were the ones that started saying 86 whenever something ran out.
Speaker 1:But, why 86? Right. So I'm like, okay, well, it was already popular with soda jerks and they made it popular in the culture. But where did they get it from? Why are they using that number? For it's gone?
Speaker 2:is it a measurement of? The capacity of a soda there was.
Speaker 1:I did read a quick theory, which this isn't true, that during the depression era, um, during the depression, sorry during the depression, soup sorry. During the depression, soup kitchens could only give out 85 bowls of soup and 86.
Speaker 2:But that's not true. That's not true at all. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's just people talking.
Speaker 2:It's a retroactive explanation.
Speaker 1:However, bartenders during Prohibition who worked at a certain New York speakeasy called Chumley's which was located on 86 Bedford Street, they had police on their payroll during the prohibition.
Speaker 2:Unheard of.
Speaker 1:They would call ahead. The police would call the bartenders ahead of time, knowing there was a raid coming yeah, and they would tell the bartender to 86 the customers and that they should exit out of the 86 bedford street side while the police came in on the other side from the other street okay so 86 the customers, let them go out the 86th street okay yes, there's, that's a saw the most solid theory behind.
Speaker 2:It really does come down to a single address of one speakeasy possibly.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:That's the leading theory, okay.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Okay, I like that.
Speaker 1:Now there was also a theory which I don't know if this is just coincidence, because I don't. I don't think this is it, but it's interesting. Article 86 of the us uniform code of military justice concerns absence without leave or awal, which is article 86 of us uniform code, whatever, and I looked it up just to confirm is that even true? Yes, oh, that is true, yes, okay it is 86, and that does pertain to AWOL. I didn't read all of it, I just saw AWOL 86, and I said okay.
Speaker 2:I don't like that theory. That's so obscure. I don't think it's real but it is quite the coincidence.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Now there's another theory which I do like just because I'm a bartender, but I'm still holding the chumley speakeasy.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm, that's got to be. Why that?
Speaker 1:was in new york. In new york, yeah, now, up until the 1980s, whiskey only came in 100 proof or 86 proof. When a bartender would notice that a patron was getting too drunk, they would scale back and they would put away the 100 proof whiskey I'm having trouble saying proof and then they would scale back and take away the 100 proof whiskey and they would give the patron the 86 proof whiskey and then saying that that customer was 86. I don't think that's anything.
Speaker 2:That was the 1980s.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I would. I mean, I don't know for a fact, but I assumed the term to 86 existed well before the 1980s.
Speaker 1:Oh, sorry, Up until the 1980s whiskey only had 100 or 86 proof?
Speaker 2:Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, so whenever, yeah back in the day I misinterpreted that. Yeah, misheard that this is a stupid theory.
Speaker 1:I might even cut this one out. Yeah, leave it in. Updated their term of 86 in may of 2025, noting that 86 has been referenced as a term for to kill, but they stated that it's truly not the case, that this is such a recent way to use it and it is so sparingly used and in only one niche area, that it is not considered a meaning of the term. So 86, according to merriam-webster, in no shape, way or form means to kill. That's it, the end period nicely said thank you, merriam-webster.
Speaker 1:Moving on All right, so 86, strong theory that it does come from prohibition era, from a speakeasy that was on 86 Bedford Street in New York and police would call and say 86 the customers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Said I'm not on the 86th to the 86th door and say 86, the customers, yeah, set them out on the 86th to the 86th door.
Speaker 1:Yep, and I like that. That's hard to say. Yeah, I know. All right, the next one yes and this was also one that I would always forget, and I think we've spoken about this one as well, but don't I for?
Speaker 2:spotlights on me. This one, I don't know, I'm coming up short I know it's fine dollar short.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just like your mama said. Okay, all righty, do you want me to leave it in? Yeah, okay, our next one is okay oh, I believe I do know this one hold on, give us the meat like okay, everyone know, do know, this one Hold on.
Speaker 2:Give us the meat Like.
Speaker 1:Okay, Everyone knows. I thought this one was interesting because people in other countries use this too, Even if they don't speak English. Everyone knows that okay is kind of just Isolated tribes somehow will say okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they've had I shouldn't say totally isolated.
Speaker 1:No, they can't be Once they've had limited contact. Okay, comes up.
Speaker 2:It's the easiest thing to say, but it's the best non-committal affirmative.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Non-endorsing of something but still being. Yeah, but it's more terse than.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's another sure kind of or okay yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't like when people spell it out Okay, a-y, just the letters, no periods, okay. And why is that, do you know? Because, okay, yeah, we are recording, had a double check. Yeah, if I have this correct, in boston I believe it was in the mid-19th century, amongst the collegiate there was this trend of college students intentionally using improper spelling for common phrases and words and they would say the phrase was all correct, as in you know all good, and they spelled it O-L-L-K-O-R-R-E-C-T and that got shortened from all correct to okay.
Speaker 1:Yes, so you are almost all correct.
Speaker 2:Oh.
Speaker 1:You're very close.
Speaker 2:Did I get the city wrong?
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no. You have like the abbreviated version.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:That's it, so I'm going to give the meat and taters of it all. It was in Boston, okay, and during this time there was a general trend, not just these Boston collegiates, though.
Speaker 2:I mean maybe amongst the upper echelon, the fops, the dandies of the the people that know how to read and write.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that crowd the people that are reading newspapers and being all illiterate.
Speaker 2:Those are being all literate and shit. Those who get a joke out of words being misspelled because they know the proper way.
Speaker 1:But when I was doing my research, it was spoken about or written about in a way as if it was a general fad to abbreviate words and to misspell them, kind of the same way that we would brb be right back. Yeah, lol, laugh out loud. Whatever, that, we don't need to abbreviate anything, we're just choosing to. I know how to spell, I know how to read I know how to write, I just am choosing to be that way Old newspapers, that's been a trend. Yes.
Speaker 2:Since we've been documenting.
Speaker 1:So abbreviating things has been a trend and newspapers have exchanged abbreviations, I guess, or those fads. Also, misspelling words was a trend, the same way that it's been a trend for us. Anything with an S turns into a Z, or cool is K-E-W-L. Cool. It was more of a joke and it came about as a joke, and there were two newspapers going back and forth, because back during this time newspapers would jab at each other in like a playful way, but there was no internet, there was no way to communicate other than through newspaper, and so there was a Boston newspaper that was talking to Providence, rhode Island.
Speaker 2:Oh, I was figuring like two rival newspapers in the same major metro area.
Speaker 1:No, going to each other, not different areas. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:That's even funnier to me.
Speaker 1:The Boston newspaper editor was returning a jab, so I don't know what he's saying, so he's returned. He's what's return. Responding Responding yes, I was like what else am I trying to say? He's responding to something that this Providence Rhode Island journal has already said to him. All right, so bear with me. It's really awkward to read because it's like 1880s.
Speaker 2:Yeah. The Boston newspaper editor is saying that there are some Boston boys who might be stopping into town in Providence, kind of like heads up Warning ya, some Bostonians are coming to raise havoc, so wreak havoc in your town.
Speaker 1:He says quote he of the Providence Journal and his train band, so his people would have the contributions box etc. Ok, and then he clarifies all correct. And then he says and cause the corks to fly. So it's really broken up. Very difficult to hear, but that was the. The fad of the time of newspapers was to break things up. Okay, all correct.
Speaker 2:You know dash dash here here, right.
Speaker 1:So basically he's saying there's some Boston boys coming your way, providence guys, be ready to host them, be ready to give them drinks.
Speaker 2:Be ready to do it up.
Speaker 1:Everything's going nuts, so okay, all correct.
Speaker 2:All correct.
Speaker 1:There were also some phrases. I'd like to see the other fads that came into play as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Right. So there were also other phrases like no go N-O-G-O. They would spell it K-N-O-W, so they would have a K-G for no go Okay. Or they would have a K-G for no go Okay. Or they would do no use N-O-U-S-E, misspelling it as no with K and then use with a Y, so then K-Y for no use.
Speaker 2:Is that how we got K-Y jelly? No use O-K-Y jelly. Yeah, why jelly?
Speaker 1:no use, okay. Why jelly? Yeah, but I wanted to know why did okay stick around and none of the other fads did? Because even today, we're no longer using brb or gtg or yeah we're not saying we might type them or we don't even type gtg, or when was the last time you typed brb?
Speaker 2:I'm unfair. I never typed abbreviations, I'm always either way. When was the last time?
Speaker 1:someone told you that oh, exactly it started to drop off a bit, because fads change, styles change. Here's how it got in. This is why it didn't die okay, yeah, no pun intended there was a presidential election in eight oh shit in 1840, so earlier I said 1880s-ish for those newspapers back and forth. It was actually 1820s, 1830s.
Speaker 2:I went the opposite way I thought it was a little earlier.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:No, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:So it was earlier that the newspapers and the okay boys were happening.
Speaker 2:The all-correct boys, the.
Speaker 1:Bostonian boys, the all-correct Bostonian boys.
Speaker 2:Keep those champagne cocks, poppin' boys.
Speaker 1:Okay, so there was a presidential election in 1840.
Speaker 2:Ooh, can I guess who ends up being the president out of this 1840 election?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:You're pretty good at the president, yeah.
Speaker 2:Let me just place the 1840. I'm gonna go Seinfeldfeld reference. I don't know was it number eight martin van buren. Oh, the van b boys.
Speaker 1:Oh, is that? Maybe that's why I was thinking of the okay boys yeah, because is that, is it the gesture?
Speaker 2:is it it, is it?
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Okay, keep going.
Speaker 1:Oh, kind of, because they do the eight.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's their sign in the Seinfeld the Van Buren boy street gang.
Speaker 1:Right, they flash eight fingers. And they do the one hand with their thumb and their pointer finger, touching, but that's not like a white supremacy sign now in the last few years. But it used to be In the 90ss it was okay. It was just A-okay. In the 90s it meant A-okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, A-okay would be. I'm all all correct.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess so yeah. But wow levels for that Seinfeld episode. Whoa. But yes, the presidential election in 1840 and Martin Van Buren was given the nickname of Old Kinderhook Kinderhook.
Speaker 2:Kinderhook.
Speaker 1:Kinderhook because his hometown of Kinderhook, New York.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay.
Speaker 1:Okay and the Van Buren supporters would join OK Clubs nationwide and they were self-proclaimed OK.
Speaker 2:So they were Van Buren fanboys? Yes, so Van Buren did have like his weird cult of personality he had stands, yeah that's weird, yeah you wouldn't think, and he's like one of the quote-unquote forgotten presidents now yeah, like you only really know about him. I guarantee most people are age bracket.
Speaker 1:If they know him at all, it's through the seinfeld reference yeah, yeah, anyway, this all okay and van buren and okay clubs and all of this became so popular and so well known that people started believing that okay came from van buren's campaign. So some people might think it comes from that, but it's not the case.
Speaker 2:They took it from okay, yeah, yeah from the newspapers and the yeah you know all correct and they're maybe making a little pun on it already by giving him the nickname yes, he's all correct, playing on, I think they were, because they probably still knew what it originally meant, but yeah it was already.
Speaker 2:They just made it even more popular and thrust it into our world forever yeah, one of the theories I had heard was that it originated in the civil war, because when commanders would relate, after a battle or a skirmish, their their casualties, if none of their soldiers were killed, they would just write zero K and send that. So the shorthand of zero killed would obviously be a good thing. So what's the situation? Okay Zero killed.
Speaker 1:Zero killed.
Speaker 2:And then that's oh yeah, everything, it's okay, it's okay, it's okay. You know we're, we'd spread around the camp. How'd the battle go? Okay, but that's not true, not the case.
Speaker 1:That's pretty neat, though I do like that, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, that's okay, though that's the origin of okay. It's people just having fun the way that we do today but we did it in print, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Wordplay.
Speaker 1:All correct. So when, if you, if anyone ever asks what does okay stand for, say all correct and they'll look at you like you're crazy, because they'll go wait a minute.
Speaker 2:That should be AC.
Speaker 1:What? And then now you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Or you can say you're a big fan of Van Buren. If nothing else, you now know that Martin Van Buren is okay.
Speaker 2:The Van B boys.
Speaker 1:Yes, old kinderhook.
Speaker 2:He had some bushy sideburns, that's what. I would strip him over my tongue on. Yeah, he had those burn side flaring out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, back in those times, Ooh, the facial hair was great. Yeah, do you have time for another one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure.
Speaker 1:All right, I looked up the phrase. Take it with a grain of salt. Ooh, I know this one you do Okay, because I never looked this up, I did not know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, so you say what it is meant to mean now.
Speaker 1:To take it with a grain of salt means to believe partially. You maybe kind of believe what that person is telling you. If they're telling you a story, you're taking it with a grain of salt. You think there's maybe something more going on. You take it with skepticism yes, skepticism. Don't put all your faith in it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, now what I have heard and again I can't cite the origin, so correct me if I'm wrong. Sure, so correct me if I'm wrong. Sure, but that back in the early, I think, pre-silk Road era, salt was very, very valuable just for, obviously, for seasoning food, and so much that individual grains would be measured out. That if, oh shit, you know what, I'm confusing this, well why with the origin of the superstition of throwing salt over your shoulder after you spill some, which is not well, the same thing I realized halfway through the story of like wait a minute, where?
Speaker 1:am I going with this?
Speaker 2:that's a different. That's a different uh well, can you continue, though, because I want to know so, yeah, so the superstition that if you spill salt and that'll be bad luck, and the way to get rid of it is you take a pinch and throw it over your shoulder Again. Salt back in the Silk Road days was very, very expensive, very hard to get.
Speaker 1:You know, they measured it out. Yeah.
Speaker 2:They measured it out by the grain, these these counters, you know, by candlelight currency. Yeah, they measured it out by the grain, these these counters, you know, by candlelight, and if you were to spill it, it's like spilling money yeah they would say oh the, the devil or a demon you know, pushed you from behind your shoulder and that's what caused you to spill the salt, spill the profits. So to get back at him, you take a little small pinch and you throw it over your shoulder into his eyes to get him to not push you again.
Speaker 1:Oh, interesting, I did not know that at all. Maybe I'll have to look that up and double check you for the next one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, don't check my math.
Speaker 1:Yeah, see you at the next borrowed words. However, this is still way back when we're in 77 AD is where I start with this.
Speaker 2:Okay. So Roman Empire era yes, If that's even the part of the world we're in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the idea of this comes from food being more easily eaten, swallowed, if taken with a small amount of salt. So back then, when meat couldn't really be preserved very well, you'd coat it in salt. Bad things are easier to swallow, essentially, but this I thought was very interesting In 77 AD in Anatolia, which is modern day.
Speaker 2:Turkey, turkey, asia Minor.
Speaker 1:Yes, there was a writing found and it had Like a recipe for an antidote.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:And in it it said take two dried walnuts, two figs and 20 leaves of rue. Pound them all together with the addition of a grain of salt. If a person takes this mixture while they're fasting, he will be proof against all poisons for that day. Oh yeah, so pre-take it, pre be proof against all poisons for that day. Oh yeah, so pre-take it.
Speaker 2:Pre-take it.
Speaker 1:For poisons.
Speaker 2:For that day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you take it daily, so like every day, yes, that seems like a lot of effort to. Well, this was found in like a monarch's cabinet.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, like this was a ruler, that makes sense. Yeah, someone higher up, people that are like Jesus.
Speaker 1:The monarchy. Yeah, yeah, so that's the thought of take it with a grain of salt, the origin of it. It's easier to take down poison. It's easier to swallow bad food. It's easier to swallow bad things. The phrase has been in English use since the 17th century and kind of went out of style for a little bit, and then it came back in the 1900s.
Speaker 2:Interesting. Yeah, I don't know what made it go away For a phrase to leave and then return. Yeah, it was retro.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it came back in like the early 1900s in America, I don't know. And then in 1948, it showed up in England and there was a quote or a written piece that said a more critical spirit slowly developed, so that Cicero and his friends took more than the proverbial pinch of salt before swallowing everything.
Speaker 2:And even then they're saying it's proverbial, so they're saying it's well known.
Speaker 1:Yes, and it's interesting because in researching this in England they use pinch of salt, we use grain of salt. Oh, and I don't really know how true that is because, like I said, I just read it on the Internet. I have learned or not learned, but I have heard people in England say that they don't say happy Christmas, they say Merry Christmas, but in America we think they say happy Christmas. Oh, they do say Merry Christmas in England, say that they don't say happy Christmas, they say Merry Christmas, but in America we think they say happy Christmas.
Speaker 2:Oh, they do say Merry Christmas, they do say Merry Christmas. And.
Speaker 1:I don't know for a fact, though. I've only heard people that I've known like that I've spoken to one on one. We've never been to England at Christmas time, but people that are from England that I know or have heard have said no, we don't say that, but I know, like a couple of people, so I don't have a big scale, yeah, However, I'm like is this one of those things? Where are we wrong? Does America just have this thought out there? And we're like, yep pinch of salt. Happy Christmas. I don't know.
Speaker 2:Language is interesting. We use more salt in America, we do so. Wouldn't a pinch be bigger than a grain? Yeah, yeah, also, we use more salt in America, we do. Wouldn't a pinch be bigger than a?
Speaker 1:grain. Yeah, yeah. Well, the thought is, the main theory from take it with a grain of salt is that things are easier to take down and swallow with salt, it can help you from poison, and then that, of course, evolves into taking bad information or bad news with a grain of salt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or someone might say something nice to you. You know, there's more coming on, you know all that fun stuff, be skeptical. Be skeptical. Our last one I wanted to do is about food.
Speaker 2:Oh good.
Speaker 1:I heard you talking about it the other day with your friend or your co-worker.
Speaker 2:Food Eggs Benedict oh okay, talking about it the other day with your friend or your co-worker. Food eggs benedict? Oh okay, I don't think it has anything to do with benedict arnold? It does not. That's. That's where it ends for me yeah, this isn't a phrase, it's um, yeah, why is it called a?
Speaker 1:dish that is served for brunch right? So eggs benedict is a brunch dish, if don't know. That is made up of poached eggs, Canadian bacon or ham placed on top of an English muffin and drizzled with hollandaise sauce. I don't like Eggs Benedict.
Speaker 2:It's decadent.
Speaker 1:That's why it's too much. The hollandaise sauce is too much.
Speaker 2:The English muffin is a lot you replace that Canadian ham, Canadian bacon, whatever the fuck it is, and put some lobster instead.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there are different ways to make it this is just the traditional way. It is considered an American classic. I didn't know that it originated in America.
Speaker 2:I assumed it came from Europe.
Speaker 1:Me too, just because it has English muffins I think that's the only reason and usually Canadian bacon, so it doesn't have much American to it, but I guess it is the only theories they have are American-based too.
Speaker 2:There's not one chef named Benedict that coined it or trademarked it or anything.
Speaker 1:There's not like one chef named Benedict that coined it. Nope.
Speaker 2:Or trademarked it, or anything.
Speaker 1:There's a couple theories. None of them have been 100% confirmed either, so there is one theory that I like more than the other, though. One theory is that it came from New Yorker named Lemuel Benedict L-E-e-m-u-e-l lemuel lemuel, I like that name. It is said that he would order butter toast or english muffins, bacon poached eggs with hollandaise sauce at the waldorf hotel in the 1890s it was his like hangover cure. He ordered it so much that the chef started calling it the Benedict, or eggs Benedict.
Speaker 2:Isn't the Waldorf hotel where, they say, the Caesar salad was invented too? There's, like some other famous dish, that like I mean lore says that factual is, but there's like some other, like famous Cobb salad or Caesar salad. They're like get the Waldorf, oh, it was the Waldorf.
Speaker 1:Isn't there a salad called the Waldorf?
Speaker 2:Oh, there is a Waldorf salad there you go. Buried the lead there. Yeah, I don't eat a lot of salads.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't really. I'd make my own salad. I don't like eating salad at restaurants unless they're like really good. So Lemuel was a Wall Street stockbroker and it's said that he walked into Waldorf Hotel in 1894, and he asked for this unique breakfast. He got it so often. The chef was calling it Eggs Benedict. Shouldn't have been Benedict's Eggs. Eh well, it's cleaner.
Speaker 2:Cleaner it's cleaner. Got some pancake, sarah coming what.
Speaker 1:Sarah's.
Speaker 2:Sarah's pancakes. Why did you switch the noun in there? I guess they're both nouns, but never mind, I'm rambling.
Speaker 1:So the second theory is that there was a wealthy socialite named Mrs LeGrand Benedict. That sounds fictional, legrand Benedict. Yeah, I know. And then I also thought, like does she not even have a first name. Do you not care? Probably back then no, but she was a wealthy socialite and a regular at Delmonico's restaurant in New York City and she was the one that popularized it. That's it with her story.
Speaker 2:That's why.
Speaker 1:I'm like I like the other one better, just because there's more to it. Yeah, that's it. But then there's also Delmonico Restaurant who's saying that they made up the Eggs Benedict.
Speaker 2:But not for specifically Le Grand Benedict.
Speaker 1:I think so they made up the dish for the wealthy guest for her. Okay, del up the dish for the wealthy guest for her. Okay, delmonico says that they made up this dish for the wealthy guest, for this wealthy socialite. One theory is that she made up the dish. The other one is Delmonico saying we made it up.
Speaker 2:Okay, whose idea was it yeah?
Speaker 1:Yes. So she came into the restaurant saying I'm tired of these same old brunch dishes, the same old stuff. I want something new.
Speaker 2:And they created it.
Speaker 1:She liked it so much, she kept getting it.
Speaker 2:And she claims she kind of dictated exactly what she wanted, yeah, and just made it yes, okay.
Speaker 1:And then there's the Waldorf with Lemuel Benedict who's saying I want this, I want that, I want this. And they're saying, yep, I'll give this to you. And I did find a name for the chef at the Waldorf, but then in another source it was an entirely different name for the chef like not even close. So again, I don't know. This all seems not real, like I really don't know what the truth is here.
Speaker 2:Interesting. I didn't know that.
Speaker 1:There's another theory that says that the name came from the sauce because there used to be, or there is, a Benedictine sauce which is similar to Hollandaise sauce.
Speaker 2:Mmm, mm-hmm, that actually might make the most sense.
Speaker 1:Well, here's my favorite. It's not the one I think is most likely okay, but it's my favorite. There's also the benedictine order of monks the benedictine order is a catholic monastic order founded in the sixth century, and they were known for their agricultural practices, which of course included raising chickens and producing eggs. So obviously it was them.
Speaker 2:But I would think they would not be so indulgent with poached in hollandaise, like they're supposed to be aesthetic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so yeah, those are all of the theories of Eggs Benedict. I'm going to say that it was someone who had hangovers. A rich stockbroker at the Waldorf had hangovers, because I only know people that eat those when they're hungover.
Speaker 2:Oh, I eat Anytime we go to breakfast. If there's something on the menu, I get it.
Speaker 1:Really, I never noticed, maybe I don't pay attention. Yeah, sorry, I did notice in Baltimore, you got it. Oh yeah, because it had like seafood on it oh yeah, you went all out. Yeah, crab in there yeah, so that is it for our second installment of borrowed words I like this one better yeah, you didn't have to do any prep work. Yeah, but yeah, I'll have more in. Whenever, basically whenever my brain needs a break, I'm gonna throw this in there just to keep ourselves afloat and moving. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It was nice to do. It'll be a floating wild card in the lineup.
Speaker 1:It'll just be thrown in there whenever I need a break. I hope everyone enjoyed it. Also remember to follow us on Instagram. Blue Sky Patreon.
Speaker 2:Also, I just thought of this, but we should field suggestions for words and phrases. Yeah, throw a comment out, Give us some weird phrase or Something you might want to know or I shouldn't say a weird phrase, a common phrase, but you don't know what its origin is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, start reaching out. We do have an email borrowedbonespodcast at protonme. I know that's a lot. If you just scroll down wherever you're streaming on spotify or apple, you can click the link. But we also do have a youtube account. So follow us on youtube and comment there. I'll try and look at all of the places. I'll try to look at everything. So, yes, give us ideas, give us um suggestions on what you want us to look up and find the origin of.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and also, if you do become a Patreon member, we will shout you out.
Speaker 2:Thank you, shouldn't be a problem, shouldn't be an issue.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, thank you. Thanks, bye.
