The Brothers Grimm: Part 1

The Brothers Grimm bathed in wine, lived in castles, and had doves nesting under their beds. Their real lives were as fantastical as the fairy tales they collected. Embark on this three-part story about Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm, with our first guest, my twin sister, Samantha!  

Sources:

"The Brothers Grimm: A Biography", by Ann Schmiesing, 

Schmiesing, Ann. The Brothers Grimm: A Biography. Yale University Press, 2024. 

"The Brothers Grimm: Two Lives, One Legacy", Donald R. Hettinga, 

Hettinga, Donald R. The Brothers Grimm: Two Lives, One Legacy. Clarion Books, 2001.

Britannica.com, Biography.com , Brothers Grimm: The Real Story of Germany's Story Tellers , GermanyInsider.com. 

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to the Brothers Grimm
• 8:28 Childhood in the Magistrate's Castle
• 18:33 Family Tragedy and New Beginnings
• 26:08 Education in Kassel
• 38:26 University Years and Separation
• 48:19 Wilhelm's Health Struggles
• 54:31 French Occupation and Cultural Preservation

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:13

Hello everyone. I'm Sarah and I'm Sam and you're listening to Borrowed Bones, a podcast about fucked up, interesting and toxic families. We have our first ever guest, my twin, samantha. Yay, hi everyone. The reason we have Samantha and not Cole is because we are talking about the Brothers Grimm. Ooh, they're more interesting than I realize. That's why it took me like eight months to fucking do this. That's true. She's been telling me for like a year that we were going to do this one together and now it is September of 2025. I think it was last Christmas. I told you about it. Yeah, it's almost a year. I've just been waiting. I told all my friends like six months ago, so I stopped talking about it. I'm sorry they never brought it up. So it's fine, sam's friends, here we are and she's roped into a three-parter. Yep, yep, it's going to be great.

Speaker 1: 1:09

I wanted to know why these brothers became obsessed with collecting fairy tales and I also wanted to know a little bit about their actual family. Like, what else is there about them? Who are the Grimm's? Who could foster these two boys, these two brothers, to be so obsessed with fairy tales? I honestly thought it wasn't even a real family. I just thought that's what they called the fairy tales. I didn't know. There was an actual brothers behind the brothers Grimm. Yeah, I've noticed a lot of people think the same thing. They just thought it was a fairy tale itself. But they're real, they really existed and let's talk about them. All right, let's go.

Speaker 1: 1:50

Jacob Grimm was born January 4th 1785. To parents Philip and Dorothea Grimm. And then, just one year later, wilhelm Grimm was born in February of 1786. So these boys are 13 months apart. So we've got Jacob and Wilhelm. Jacob and Wilhelm, okay, and their parents, philip and Dorothea. They did have a son that was born first, before Jacob, but he passed away at just three months old. Yeah, that's sad. In total, dorothea would birth nine children and six would survive to adulthood. Wow, yeah, wow, I guess that's a sign of the times. Yes, that happened a lot the late 1700s, early 1800s. Yeah, jacob and wilhelm will have four younger siblings. Okay, the younger siblings were carl, ferdinand, ludwig, and then their youngest sibling was sister charlotte, who went by lottie.

Speaker 1: 2:51

Oh, I love that. I thought that was cute. What's that from yellow jackets? That's a character in a movie, is it? I don't know. I mean it could be Yellow Jackets, but I thought it was like there was another movie with Lottie A Little Princess. Is it A Little Princess? Isn't there a little orphan girl named Lottie? I don't know, maybe the one that Look it up. You have to look sense. Yeah, okay, you found it, I did.

Speaker 1: 3:24

It is from A Little Princess, a Little Princess, and Lottie is a friend of Sarah in the seminary. She's described as someone who looks childish and chubby. She's the little crybaby girl that cried on the floor because she wanted her mom. Yes, and then sarah would help her. So was she the one that would throw fits or that? Okay, she would throw fits. Yeah, I want my mom. I want my mom. I want my mom. Exactly. How did I forget that? I don't know sarah's best friend. Anyway, I was named after sarah from the labyrinth, not Sarah from A Little Princess. Yeah, thanks. So facts Don't care.

Speaker 1: 3:59

Moving on, okay, philip Grimm worked as a lawyer and was also the town clerk of Hanau. That's the city they lived in, and Hanau was in Hesse or Hessen Castle. What country is this? This is where it gets a little tough. Okay, this is Germany, I figured. And Germany was not unified at this time. It's when there was Prussia and then the other parts of Germany were kingdoms of Germany, gotcha. So we're in kingdoms. Each kingdom has its own ruler. It's very all over the place. We need to know all this to understand the Grimm's In 1785, to understand the Grimm's In 1785, a new ruler took over, causing the Grimm's to move into a new house, because whenever the powers that be exchanged hands, philip's job changed because he worked for the government.

Speaker 1: 4:47

Okay, this wasn't a bad switch. The new house was a step up for the Grimm's. They were now living a comfortable, upper-middle-class life. This is a fun life Like. Their childhood is so fairytale it doesn't feel real. This is why people don't think they're real.

Speaker 1: 5:06

They had two servants. One was the nursery maid who would tell them stories and sneak them little treats of bread and cheese. Then the other servant helped out mom with household chores and all that stuff. Servant helped out mom with household chores and all that stuff. Once a week there was a washer woman that would come and wash their clothes in big steaming tubs out in the courtyard and she would often give them bread with some drops of brandy on them. It's like a treat. Oh man, what a good nanny. I know she was just the washer woman. Yeah, yeah, wow, yeah, brandy was everywhere. I don't know if Brandy was a thing back then. Give it to your kids Now.

Speaker 1: 5:43

The Grimm's new house was large and up to date on all of the latest trends. Their drawing room had wallpaper which was new at the time, and it was dyed a forest green with pictures of huntsmen on them, and the brothers would stare at this wall, imagining what adventures these hunters are on. Dorothea could also be found relaxing upstairs. She'd be knitting or sewing. There was also a bathtub upstairs where their mom would bathe them, often throwing a splash of wine into the bathwater. Wow, jacob said the water smelled sweet, but it burned his eyes. Oh sure, yeah was. Were bathtubs a thing or is that like a state-of-the-art type of? They were bad like pot, like not pots, but like tubs that just sat in the middle of the room just filled with hot water. Yeah, and they just fill it. I had to know why there was wine in this bathtub. I was like why Did you do that? What does that mean? It was thought that wine or vinegar would help to keep the plague away during the medieval times. So it's a layover from that. Yeah, so Dorothea was being smart.

Speaker 1: 6:49

She was, as the Grimm's lived in Hanau. They were surrounded by family from both sides, both their mom and dad's families. Jacob and Wilhelm would often visit their father's oldest sister, aunt Schlemmer. What's her last name? Schlemmer? These are German people. That's her name, aunt Schlemmer Stop. Her first name, I forgot, was like Julianne Charlotte, but Aunt Schlemmer Schlemmer. They would spend more time at her house than at their own home. Aunt Schlemmer was the one who taught Jacob how to read and she grew very close to the Grimm's. She was Philip's oldest sibling and she was really close to her brother, philip and the Grimm's because she was a widow. So she ends up moving in with the Grimm's Grimm's Now.

Speaker 1: 7:42

Their father applied for a position as a district magistrate at the end of 1790 and was offered the position in 1791. So the Grimm's move again, but they moved to a different city called Steinau. That was a really good job. I practiced, did you practice? I practiced Because you saw me get ready for it. I am shocked at how good that pronunciation was. I deserve a drink. I believe it. I believe that's what it's called. You can even Google it. I will not. I'll trust you. Yeah, I don't have to. I trust it. And at this time in 1791, jacob was six years old and Wilhelm was five. Lottie has not been born yet, so we're still kind of growing the family.

Speaker 1: 8:20

And the other city, hanau, was a bit more isolated from the outside world. So when they moved to Shainau they were surprised at the activity. It was a smaller city but it was on the Royal Road, so there was a lot of passing through foreigners, a bunch of inns and places for travelers to eat or drink. They also really loved their new spacious 16th century magistrate's house. It was a castle.

Speaker 1: 8:48

They lived in a fucking castle that was 200 years old already, in 1791. What? Yeah, it was the classic stone thick walls with those turrets, and the boys would spy out of them and watch everything that was going on. There was a lot of hustle and bustle. Oh man, doesn't that sound like fairy tale? It does. They're bathing in wine and just having some brandy with toast, yeah, and then I just live in a castle. Yeah, they have no idea. No, servants and coachmen were always coming and going and they would often be playful with the boys. They had storks make nests nearby. Okay, yep, that's real. Okay, I don't believe this. I know it's weird. There were also carvings of devils and figures on the ends of rafters. They had that classic like architecture Sounds a little gothic maybe. There was also even a story about the previous magistrate haunting the castle, like just a little kid's dream.

Speaker 1: 9:50

Right, we thought our house was haunted growing up and we had a lot of fun with that. We did. I think it is haunted. It was a good time. It was a scary time but it was a good time. I know it was kind of scary but it was fun.

Speaker 1: 9:59

There wasn't many a night I slept by myself. No, no, I would just crawl into your room on the floor. Yeah, you'd wake up and surprise. I did that with you a few times my sister's on the floor. You had a creepy, had it in your bedroom and we were always just guessed on who it was.

Speaker 1: 10:20

Really, yes, you don't remember that photo. That's why I wouldn't sleep in your room, because that photo was there. No, I don't. It was like original to the house. You're such a weirdo I don't remember the photo. But I really hated that room so much I really was uncomfortable, I couldn't sleep and then I had to jump off of the bed like a foot away from the bed because I was terrified of something grabbing me from under the bed.

Speaker 1: 10:41

I remember when you were that scared. I was that scared, the sixth sense, okay, that girl that grabbed his ankle, she did it. She killed me for the rest of my life. I'm scared of under beds now, even now. But you play her so well Because you used to pretend to be her too. Yes, I did. She terrified me so much. You did really great at playing her. Yeah, I did a lot of good things. Yeah, yeah, anyway, well, anyway, the boys haven't even left to go to the city yet.

Speaker 1: 11:14

This is just stuff that happens around the castle, okay, so when they do go into town, they get to watch potters working with their clay tanners, with their hides, and there's even a mention of a goose girl driving her flock. Are you fucking kidding me, goose girl? Yeah, I don't. I had no idea. That was even an occupation. Well, I mean, someone has to move the geese, right? I guess they do. I mean again, 1700s. Yeah, what are you going to do? Someone's got to do it, and Lottie was born during this time as well. So now we have all of the Grimm's, okay, while they were in Shainau, jacob and Wilhelm, my southerness. I don't have a lot of it left, but it wants to come out. When I say Wilhelm, I want to say Wilhelm. Me too. I can't, it's going to happen. It's either Wilhelm or it's like Wilhelm Wilhelm. That's how I want to say it Wilhelm Wilhelm. Maybe, if I do it the traditional way, with a V sound, jakob and Wilhelm.

Speaker 1: 12:13

Oh good, they began seeing a school master and having private tutoring. They were learning the basics reading, writing, arithmetic, all that. They were also learning how to play the violin and dance and speak french. Philip wanted his sons to be able to mingle with the elites, and it's really cute, because the boys were often seen walking hand in hand on their way to their lessons. Oh, my god right, no one talks about this part of him or them. I had to read so many books for this because there's no documentaries or podcasts that like talk about this side of them. Right, I had to read books for this, sam. Well, I didn't even know they were real until they're real started. So, yeah, and then, while they were in steinau, they also began to have an appreciation for the local customs. They entered the city wearing their shoulder length, hair just down and loose, but the style in steinau was to wear in a ponytail. So they soon followed suit. And with other things they started to follow suit with as well, and this is where they started to have their love for their own culture and traditions. They didn't really know what to do with it yet, but the spark is there.

Speaker 1: 13:29

A few years after they moved, in 1793, the winds of change were swirling around Europe. The French revolted, leading to the beheading of their king, king Louis XVI, and that happened in January of 1793. Whenever there was trouble in France, that meant trouble in Germany, because they are so close together. There's quite the ripple effect that happens, and the kingdoms throughout all of German, the kingdoms that were throughout all of the German lands my tongue just didn't want to move All of the rulers of each of the german kingdoms were getting nervous because they just saw france behead their king and they're like whoa, let's just be chill, let's be chill, let's be chill. Yeah, but because no one's ever chill, soldiers started coming in and out of steinau, going back and forth on the royal road the french soldiers, the hessian soldiers, um, dutch, prussian, austrian.

Speaker 1: 14:29

So you have, like your allies of germany, being like no, france, don't come over here, like the French soldiers, the Hessian soldiers Dutch, prussian, austrian. So you have like your allies of Germany being like, no, france, don't come over here, like don't do that over here. Then you have French being like we revolted, now we'll take over you. I don't really understand it. All you need to know is that a lot is happening. Ok, there were a thousand Hessian soldiers that marched through Steinau in one day alone, and Steinau only has like 1,400 people that live there at this time. So to have a thousand people in one day come through, that's a lot. And from November of 1793 to the end of 1795, almost 490,000 troops total passed through Steinau.

Speaker 1: 15:09

Wow, yes, and the boys? They liked watching the soldiers march, but they also didn't really like the way the foreign soldiers did things. Sure, like the Dutch and the Austrians, they typically got drunk and unruly. They wanted to take food, drink, livestock, they just took whatever they wanted. And it caused a lot of locals to file complaints, which then made a lot of work for their dad because as the magistrate he dealt with the small scale like drunken, disorderly, that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1: 15:41

But despite all of this, the Grimm's were able to live a pretty normal and decent life there. They just kind of stayed out of the way, when Philip was home he would say morning prayers and he would engage in conversation with his children during dinner time, which was he was like a nice dad like, especially for the time he wanted to be with his kids. He would even take one or two kids with him into town whenever he needed to go for like business or something. Even if he went to a different town, he'd take a kid with him. He also really loved doting on his baby girl, lottie, lottie, yeah. And then Dorothea even wrote a poem to Philip once and she referred to him as a noble, warm friend with whom my heart is eternally united. Oh, isn't that cute the way they wrote back then and just spoke in general. I know Around Christmastime in 1795, philip became ill with pneumonia.

Speaker 1: 18:12

No, and Dorothea was still mourning the loss of their youngest child, george, who passed away at eight months old. So it fell upon Jacob to become responsible for sending letters out to his grandfather updating him about Philip's health. Jacob was 10 years old. Wow, yeah, mom was like I can't handle this, it's too much. Yeah, jacob, you got to do it, you're old enough.

Speaker 1: 18:39

There was one point where Jacob thought that his dad was doing better. His appetite was coming back and it looked pretty promising. He wrote a letter to his grandfather, zimmer, back in Hanau, that dad's doing better. Will you please send some bread from the baker that he likes? But once the bread arrived, it was too late.

Speaker 1: 18:56

I know Philip passed away. Oh, yeah, he passed away in January of 1796, just days after Jacob's 11th birthday. Oh, isn't it sad. That is so sad. And Philip was only 44. Wow, yeah, I mean that was probably. That's young, even for back then? Are you sure? Yes, okay, because usually once you make it past infancy, you can live. Yeah, the reason why the average lifespan is so short is because of all the infant deaths. But once you're past a year or two, you're pretty much the same as you and I, golden. Yeah, I mean you're not going to reach like 90, but you know 70s, it's pretty normal, okay, poor Jacob. Now he's the man of the house. Yep, he's the man of the house. Being 11 years old, wilhelm is barely 10. Yep, yep.

Speaker 1: 19:52

After Philip's death, the family quickly fell on hard times. They could not handle it financially. It really caught up with them fast. As the magistrate, philip received a lot of benefits, like in-kind rent, so he didn't have to pay for his house. He had the right to cultivate certain tracts of land in the district. He also was given household staff, and then he also had a salary on top of those things. All of that's gone Right. So I'm assuming they can't stay in the magistrate castle? Nope, nope.

Speaker 1: 20:20

Dorothea was only 40 at this time and, with her six children, they really started to see the decline in standard of living and, like you said, within weeks they had to vacate the house to make way for philip's successor. Yeah, yeah, so that sucked. What's lottie gonna do? She's just a baby right now. Right, they first moved next door to a small, like run down house with a view of the magistrate's house, but that was just a little too painful for them, right, that's horrible. Yeah, that's all they had, though, like in a quick notice, that's all they could do. Watch out the window. Your hopes and dreams, yeah, everything you once had given to someone else. I hate that. Okay, dorothea did receive a little pension, though after Philip's death. It was 100 Frankfurt guilders, which was only one sixteenth of their previous income. So sharp decline. Yeah, but no matter what, they were united.

Speaker 1: 21:20

Their aunt Schlemmer was still with them and they decided to scrape up enough together so that way they could buy an upper floor of a house at the opposite side of the town center. Just like, let's get out of here. We found a space. The house included a barn and a small garden. Sadly though, only 11 months after Philip's death, his sister, aunt Schlemmer, would also die at the age of 61. Oh man, I'm not sure how she died. Yeah, yeah, just not even a year later. Wow, so Dorothy is now alone, alone with her kids.

Speaker 1: 21:57

Jacob took his aunt's death very hard. They were very close. Jacob was her favorite and she showed it it was understood. She was actually kind of mean to the other kids. She's like, get out of here, jacob's mine. It was said that Jacob looked a lot like his grandfather on his dad's side. So her dad, okay, that he looked a lot like his paternal grandfather. So that's the idea of why they clung together so well. But Jacob was really smart too, and Aunt Schlemmer was really smart, and from the stories I read, I don't think she gave a fuck about dumb kids. She's like I don't have time for this, you're stupid. Jacob was smart, so he made the cut. Yeah, oh, I really think that's how it went. I understand. I feel that. Yeah, yeah, I feel it.

Speaker 1: 22:44

Well, the Grimms quickly fell into a new normal. They a bench in front of the garden hut, either reading, knitting or gazing at her children as they played. There are also some church bells that would chime in the distance every hour, like, even though they're kind of broke now, right, they still have fairy tale life. Their life sucks, but it doesn't. I know. It's still like a beautiful life. Still a beautiful life. That's gorgeous. I know, I forgot about this part.

Speaker 1: 23:09

Inside their house they kept birds. They had blackbirds and lunettes. I didn't look up how to pronounce that, I don't know. I don't really like birds. They kept the blackbirds and lunettes in cages. You know this. They attack me. Okay, I know, I do know this. Yes, I do know that. But what I thought was weird? So these birds are in cages normal but they have two doves that would nest under a bed Strange. They just have wild animals living in their home. Yep, under the bed. Fairytale shit Is that creepy girl from the Sixth Sense is supposed to be? It's birds? Oh, my God, what if she's like stabbing the doves like a hex? Okay, sorry, I didn't go that far in my head. I've been reading about the Grimm's for a long time. It's dark in here.

Speaker 1: 23:57

In 1798, so two and a half years after their dad dies it was decided that Jacob and Wilhelm would attend high school in Kassel. So they're going back to where they came from, that's where their grandfather Zimmer is, and Aunt Zimmer. Her name is Henriette or Henrietta, I don't know how to pronounce it. It ends with an E. Yeah, it's German, it's probably Henrietta. I'm going to say Henrietta, yeah, yeah. Now, aunt Henrietta was a lady-in-waiting for a countess and she said that the boys could come live in the castle with her and attend school in Castle. Right, okay, so Castle C-A-S-T-L-E. Living in Castle K-A-S-S-E-L. Okay, yes, okay, yes, understood.

Speaker 1: 24:50

In late September, 13-year-old Jacob and 12-year-old Wilhelm left from Shainau back to Castle and the rest of the family stayed. Stayed in Shainau, yes, so just the boys, just the boys. Now the name of this palace. I'm going to try and say it's very difficult, I just like it. Okay, they arrived at Schloss Wilhelmschlü, shut up, schloss Wilhelmschlü. That was so good For someone who doesn't know German. We're doing great. It sounds good to me. If anyone's from Germany listening to this, just let us know. Or if anyone speaks fluent German. Let us know if she's totally botching these names or if she's actually doing a really good job, because I think it sounds fantastic. I think it sounds pretty good too, I think. So that was great. So again, they're living in another castle I'm not going to say the name. Again, you did your due diligence and they're living with their aunt, henrietta Zimmer.

Speaker 1: 27:00

Okay, jacob and Wilhelm shared a room and they really loved their new accommodations. It was gorgeous, beautiful, everything. Basically, all castles have School. On the other hand, even though they enjoyed their living arrangements, they did not really enjoy going to school. They liked receiving education, they were great on that, but they just did not fit in socially at this school. Okay, they were surrounded by noble families and they were not noble. They're kind of at the best upper middle class. But now they fell hard and they're not anymore. The teachers would even speak down to them in a different German dialect. They would not speak high German to them. Ooh, there's different dialects, wow, and that showed how they thought of you. Okay, and the teachers would talk down to them.

Speaker 1: 27:46

Okay, and so Jacob and Wilhelm felt like they were just these country bumpkins trying to make it out in the city. They were like, oh, we don't fit in here. Yeah, to make it out in the city. They were like, oh, we don't fit in here, yeah. They were also a little behind when they entered school because of just the living where they were, you know. But Jacob was able to test well enough to make it into the lowest classes to prep him for university. Wilhelm didn't make it, oh no. So he had to do private tutoring for a year before he was admitted in, but eventually he made it. Okay, a little bit of a struggle, but they got there.

Speaker 1: 28:19

Once they were in, they moved quickly, excelled and did great through school. They just didn't get along well with people. They didn't like anyone Did. They talk to each other pretty much the whole time. They had a very heavy workload. Before school they would spend about four to five hours being tutored in Latin and French and then they would spend six hours a day at school. So 11 hours of schoolwork every day.

Speaker 1: 28:45

And during this time the boys did grow very close. They were discouraged from making friends by their grandfather and their mom, because Dorothea said, and I quote, to not look for company of other boys, it's too distracting. Okay, the Grimm's are putting all of their eggs into Jacob and Wilhelm's baskets. All the money that they had was given to them for the school. They had to pull some strings and connections, and everything too, because these boys probably shouldn't have been admitted into the school. But mom and Aunt Zimmer knew the right people, but they were like this is our one shot, you can't fuck it up. Jacob and Wilhelm did grow homesick, though, and they would find certain distractions to help stay in good spirits. They would catch butterflies and collect stones. When they did have money, they would go to the used bookstores and buy poetry and fiction novels, so just always keeping their minds busy.

Speaker 1: 29:39

In 1802, jacob was admitted into the University of Marburg. The school was what I was going to say. Where is that? It was 30 miles away, just in Germany. Yeah, okay, 30 miles away from Castle and 30 miles away from Wilhelm. Oh no, I can't do this, sorry, it's just a vocal stim. I do all the time, and this would be the first time that the boys were separated, because Wilhelm still had one more year of school to finish. He is a year younger than Jacob. Yeah, it's going to happen, right, but that's devastating.

Speaker 1: 30:21

I remember when they split us up and put us in a different class as I just completely went inward and stopped being social and didn't know what to do. Yeah, they say studies have shown not to split up twins when you go to school. Because Samantha and I struggled hard. Yeah, that was really hard. I still struggle to this day because of that. Yeah, I remember staring because our kindergarten classrooms were across the hall from each other, so if the doors were open I could see you Right. And I remember just staring and longingly wanting to go over there and my teacher would be like Sarah, get over here. And I'd be like, no, I hated my kindergarten teacher, I hated her. She probably remembers me, not in a good way.

Speaker 1: 31:00

And then by third grade it became such an issue. They did put us together, yes, but then we were split up again in high school. No, it was fourth grade. We didn't have the same fourth grade class, did we? Oh, yeah, we were split up again. We were split up after third grade and sixth grade. We had different classes too, because my fourth grade teacher didn't like me either. That was Miss Palmer. I had Miss Palmer, okay. So we had the same fourth grade. So we had the same fourth grade, okay, but were you taken out of Miss Palmer's class with a different fourth grade teacher Because you guys didn't get along.

Speaker 1: 31:28

No, okay, just wondering. I did not get along with that teacher and she just let me walk out whenever I felt angry. Yeah, so, anyway, don't split up your twins. Don't split up your twins. If you have twins, don't split them up. They'll develop much better.

Speaker 1: 31:43

Yes, and now we're just awkward. Raise a sunshine. Don't know how to talk to people. No, no, no, it's okay. Yeah, we found partners that are codependent. It's alright, it's fine. I do view us outliving our partners, though, and living together at the end and just being spinsters. Same. Sorry, cole and Carrie, it's fine, that's how it's going to be. Hayley will move in too. She will. Hayley's our older sister, one of us. One of us. That wasn't planned. Okay, we have to focus, focus. Sorry, god damn it. Okay, I don't know where I'm at, 30 miles away.

Speaker 1: 32:26

College yeah, jacob was not very impressed in his first year of university. He was quickly becoming bored with his professors. He was like all they do is make us memorize and recite. They're not even like invoking new ideas or having conversations. He's like this is boring.

Speaker 1: 32:44

Jacob went into studying law like his father. He felt that was the most pragmatic thing to do for his family. He was given the nickname of the old man because of how serious he took his studies. He was locked in, straight and narrow Locked in. Jacob was very lonely at school, though, and he wrote to Wilhelm and he said I'd rather be in a wooden stall in a barn with friends than all alone in this beautiful scene. Oh my gosh, they have like love letters to each other. That's cute and weird. It's kind of weird, I'll be honest. Like I wouldn't write letters to you like that. No, I'd be like I miss you, I have FOMO, I don't know. Like what are you doing? What's up Now?

Speaker 1: 33:29

Around this time in the fall of 1802, there was a conspiracy theory going around that the world was going to end due to all the wickedness Ooh Rawr. And Jacob believed it. He was like oh shit. And he wrote a letter to his friend Paul stating that he hoped to receive one more letter from him before. They never saw each other again, and Paul was back in Castle, like 30 miles away, and that's a big difference at that time. So Paul had no idea what he was talking about, because that rumor didn't reach Castle. So Paul was like hey, you're not going to like off yourself, are you? So it sounds like a suicide note, yeah. And Paul was like you good, you good.

Speaker 1: 34:08

And then Jacob was like, oh yep, the world didn't end, I guess A month later, once the letters got back. Pretty much, I just thought that was really funny. That is kind of interesting. Yeah, so conspiracy theories about the world ending have been Forever, a forever thing. Mm, hmm, ok, forever, yep, love that, and I'm surprised that Jacob fell for it, honestly. But I guess I don't know. I mean, if there's no other time to fall for it, it would be the 1700s. It does make sense, 1800s, especially with, like, the Napoleonic Wars going on and everything, and you just see these French soldiers and all this stuff. Yeah, yeah, well, the world did not end and Wilhelm was back in castle and he was dealing with his own issues with isolation, castle, and he was dealing with his own issues with isolation.

Speaker 1: 35:00

Shortly after jacob left, wilhelm suffered from an asthma attack and then scarlet fever, oh yeah. And wilhelm was quarantined for six weeks and their friend paul would visit wilhelm and write letters for him, because back then, when you're resting, you weren't allowed to read or write, which I thought that was interesting. But you could draw what they wanted you to rest your mind as well as your body, but you could draw. But you can draw. I guess that's a different part of the brain. They don't know what they're talking about. They just thought rest. Drawing isn't real work. I'm an artist. I'm an artist. Okay.

Speaker 1: 35:41

Once Wilhelm was better, he focused on school and did well in his studies and eventually, after the year, he was then admitted to the University of Marburg and him and Jacob were reunited after one year apart, thank God, and Wilhelm was also studying law. They found out that their favorite professor was Frederick Carl von Savini we will call him Savini Okay, I like that. And he was like an avant-garde professor. He would take in the papers or the essays that the students wrote and he would return them with notes and comments and thoughts. That was different for that time. Yeah, and Jacob and Wilhelm are like, wow, this guy actually wants to engage with us and have a dialogue and talk about the work we're doing.

Speaker 1: 36:31

And by the following year of 1803, savini and the Grimm brothers were actual friends and no longer just student and professor. The boys would go over to his house and discuss books. Savini showed them his library and within that library there was a book of German songs that caught Jacob's eye it's just good to note because it's kind of where everything starts. Yeah, and Savini was the one that steered them towards studying their own heritage, saying that, yeah, greek and Roman are great we got to know about that but German heritage is just as important, and so he put that seed in there. Savini also introduced them to the new generation of writers called the Romantics, and Romanticism was a new way of writing, and they would write about common people, nature, write about like shepherds and shoemakers and washerwomen and that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1: 37:26

That was a new thing for this time. Okay, so we're seeing the pieces kind of forming which is like their whole life has like been this romanticized thing. Now they have everything they've done. Yeah, wine in the bath no, no, I love the wine in the bath. I know I can't get over it. I want to try that. Hope you don't get the plague. You know what. I'm sure that's next on the list of what's coming back. So get your wine, your vinegar, put it in the tub. The brothers would become lifelong friends with Savini. They stayed friends forever, shortly after their hanging out.

Speaker 1: 38:02

In 1803, professor Savini had to go to Paris and do like professor shit. He was researching and doing things. Yeah, Some professor shit. Yeah, researching and doing things. Yeah, professor, some professor shit. Yeah, yeah, cool. The brothers were a little bummed by it. They're like ah, everybody you know.

Speaker 1: 38:15

But in 1804 savini wrote to jacob asking him to come and help him in paris to do research. He said he can't really read that well anymore. His eyes were kind of going out on him. So jacob enthusiastically accepted the offer and moved to paris, separating from wilhelm for the second time. Wow, jacob was 19 and wilhelm's 18. Now, okay, jacob had a bit of a culture shock when he arrived in paris. It was a lot more beautiful than he thought it would be, but it was also a lot more expensive. He did enjoy sharing a room with a professor and spending time with him. He liked all of the arts and everything he saw. He just loved it. But it was just a lot for him.

Speaker 1: 38:58

The second separation seemed to strengthen the bond between Wilhelm and Jacob, and in July of 1805, jacob wrote a letter to Wilhelm stating they must never be apart and any separation could make him die of grief. That seems really too much. It's a lot, yes, yes. And then Wilhelm responds. Wilhelm responds with no one has loved me as much as you. My love for you is just as heartfelt. Wow, there's more Whoa, yeah. So another letter from Jacob to Wilhelm, referring to their future careers, what they can do in the future, for how to work together.

Speaker 1: 39:45

Jacob says should want one of us to go somewhere else, the other would need to resign at once, and we are so accustomed to each other's companionship that separation could distress me to death. How dramatic are these two boys about each other. Yeah, they're really intense, they are intense. And then jacob goes on to say which I vibed with this part, okay, okay, okay. He said we will presumably at last live quite withdrawn and isolated, for we will not have many friends and I do not enjoy acquaintances. We shall want to work with each other quite collaboratively and to cut off all other affairs. I wouldn't cut off all other affairs, but I do like the same, like bro, same. I don't really like acquaintances, like get out of here, can I just live with you? I'm all set, so like there are certain moments where I get it, but then other times I'm like oh Jesus, guys, come on, come on, boys, get it together, let's get it together.

Speaker 1: 40:45

While in Paris, jacob's job was to read old manuscripts and compare different versions to see which ones were the most accurate. While doing this, jacob looked up the original manuscript of the book of German songs that he saw in Savini's library. It's still on his mind, that's all. There's nothing really that comes with these German songs, it's just his gateway into the German culture and folksiness, gotcha. After 10 months apart, wilhelm and Jacob were reunited once more Together. They journeyed back to Kassel to be with their family, all right, and this would be the first time the whole family has been together in seven years.

Speaker 1: 41:26

Wow, yes, wilhelm began looking for work and studying for his finals, while Jacob decided to forego his finals, since he had really good recommendations, and instead went in search for a government position as like a lawyer or secretary. Okay, there were no jobs to be found, though. Nothing was available, and the family went without income for a few months, aside from that small little pension that dorothea gets, but no one's bringing in any extra income. Yeah, in january of 1806, though, jacob did become a clerk in the hessian war office. So german has. Yeah, it wasn't a great lucrative job, but it was something. But there was a bigger issue. The fact that there was a need for a Hessian war office, yeah, meant that there was some shit going down.

Speaker 1: 42:18

Right, napoleon has been conquering left and right. He's been on some shit. What a time to be alive in Europe at that time. And I never thought about the intersection of Napoleon and the Grimms Right or the intersection of Napoleon and literally any other historical America. Like, get your hands out of here, why? Like everywhere, yeah, he did it all. He did it all. So we're going to kind of sidetrack a little bit to when the boys were younger and shaped by war, so like Napoleon and conquering europe.

Speaker 1: 42:52

Okay, when the brothers were younger, in steinau and steinau napoleon I went loose on my german accent there. I had to bring it back. She straightened right up and said steinau, just like that. I feel like germans would have like a straighter back than americans, though back. Hey, there's five germans that listen to us, tell us, let us know. Just like that, I feel like Germans would have like a straighter back than Americans, though. Hey, there's five Germans that listen to us, tell us, let us know. Yeah, I'm sorry, is that a yodel? What are you doing? I don't know, I was laughing. Well, while the brothers were younger, napoleon took control of the French army and was gradually seizing sections of Europe and the Mediterranean.

Speaker 1: 43:39

Back in 1804, right before Jacob left for Paris, napoleon was dissolving the French Republic and he crowned himself emperor of all of France's lands. And then this I just thought was interesting to think of Jacob having to avoid Napoleon. In 1805, when Jacob was returning home from Paris, he needed to alter his route to avoid Napoleon's army. He was like, oh shit, I'm in the way. Yeah, gotta use another road, yeah.

Speaker 1: 43:58

And then, in 1806, officially, the Holy Roman Empire came to an end, which I'm not even going to dip into, okay, okay, it's just anyone who knows history. This is what's going on, cool. And November 1st of 1806, french soldiers marched into castle and French officials took over the government. Okay, so, wow, french are in. Some people fled at this time, but the Grimms stayed put. Napoleon combined the kingdom of Hesse with nearby kingdoms and named it the kingdom of Westphalia. Huh, okay.

Speaker 1: 44:35

And Napoleon placed his younger brother, jerome Bonaparte, on the throne and foreigners filled the castle and new customs arose overnight. And then the Hessean war office was no longer needed because French took over and Jacob found himself without a job yet again. Meanwhile, wilhelm passed his finals, but he still could not find work either. So, once again, both of them without income, no income for the family. And in May of 1808, dorothea became ill and passed away at the age of 52 of a respiratory illness. There weren't pneumonia vaccines back then. No, there were not Dang. So Jacob and Wilhelm now are living with their four younger siblings. Okay, they only lived with their mom as adults for just shy of three years, because they were sent away and they did traveling, so they didn't really get a lot of adult time with their mom, which is sad. That is sad. Jacob was 23 and wilhelm 22. Okay, their dad's pension stopped with the passing of their mother and so there was no money coming in now and during this time they all only ate one meal a day and they also gave up tea time. Yeah, I know, but after three months jacob received a position at the library in the palace. So under the king, okay, there were 12 000 books in this library and only the king queen and the librarians could have access to these books. And jacob was given a lot of flexibility with his job, which was great. He was able to explore the library freely and kind of do his own research.

Speaker 1: 46:17

Now we're jumping back to Wilhelm. He was having health problems around this time. He always had health problems his whole life. I think it's from scarlet fever, and then it just continued his whole life. Yeah, causes heart damage yes, he had an irregular heartbeat. Yep, shortness of breath. Yes, pain in his chest yeah, okay, damn, wilhelm would end up traveling 60 miles for medical care, and he stayed with Professor Reel. Now, it's like 1809.

Speaker 1: 46:47

Wilhelm had I thought you would find this interesting his medical care routine. It's very interesting. In the mornings he would wake up and rub a mercury ointment on his neck, and then he'd wash his heart, like his chest, but like above his heart, with spirits, and I couldn't see if they were spirits, like alcohol or some type of a disinfectant. I don't know if they had that back then, though it was just said, wash his heart with spirits, and it was like above the chest, and then some days, he would swallow a powder that would make him sick, but this was only once a month, when the moon was waning. Yeah, a little bit of science, a little celestial. And then, half an hour after, he would ingest the powder. He would take a bitter essence to help him regain his appetite. Not a clue what that is, okay, bitter essence. I quoted it from the book. In the late mornings he would take more pills and then wash his heart area again and repeat this throughout the day. Wilhelm also wore a magnetic band around his heart, like his chest, okay, and he would bathe in hot springs while holding a sponge over his heart. And he also tried an experimental pill that needed to be handled carefully or else it would explode if it got too hot. What, what, what? What's in that pill? What Is that radiation? No, no, that wouldn't explode. No, it's got to be some form of carbon. Yeah, it's got to be some powder. Yeah, something, something that is crazy. And then there's more.

Speaker 1: 48:29

The professor was trying these new electrical cures. The battery was just invented, like nine years earlier, so he's all about this stuff. And the electrical cure began when the staff would wheel in a contraption that was described by Wilhelm as a magnificent, large, mahogany machine. Interesting, yeah, huh, this is like their version of a defibrillator or something. I don't know, because it says that he would sit for 10 minutes, bound with chains, on a stool. Okay, and the stool was on a glass-legged table. So then they would send electrical currents through the chains that he's attached to, like bound with, but the current wouldn't bother Wilhelm unless someone brushed against his coat and then sparks would come out, okay, and it would shock him if someone touched him, but other than that he was fine. He was fine, okay, I don't know what that is, okay, um, and wilhelm was very impressed and he said that the professor was a wonderful man, great, yeah, there was no mention of like what symptoms this helped, just the general heart stuff, like you know. You know, his heart hurt, his chest hurt, right, that kind of just pain in his chest is all it's really explained as interesting. I wonder if they have one of these machines somewhere in a museum, maybe like irregular heartbeats and things like that, like a pacemaker, like that's maybe, yeah, what that would do.

Speaker 1: 50:06

But the people feel that though, yeah, wilhelm did eventually grow tired of the treatments. I think eventually he did start to feel like electricity coming and like it wasn't fun for him anymore because he was receiving them daily and they were causing oh, sometimes I forget what I write they were causing increasingly unpleasant sensations, oh, okay, okay. So at first it was fine, and then he was like I'm done, this is a lot. When wilhelm was not undergoing like medical treatment, he would look through old books for folk tales and folk songs. He was also very interested in this too from their friend savini. Oh, I also forgot to mention that at some point during all this, jacob sent a collection of fairy tales that he himself collected to a friend for their child. Oh so they have this. They just don't really know what to do with it. Yet right back to wilhelm.

Speaker 1: 51:00

Six months later, wilhelm was finally better and able to return home. He felt better. Things were getting, his heart rhythm was better. So maybe that electric stuff did help him. Yeah, maybe it paced his heart. It was temporary, like Right, but it helped, yeah.

Speaker 1: 51:17

Before Wilhelm returned home, though, he went on a trip to Berlin with his friends, with one of his friends paying for him to go. I had to look that up. I was like Wilhelm, y'all are poor, you can't be going to Berlin, but his friend paid. They don't have friends. Well, they do have some scholarly friends. They have like a group of like three or four, and the names pop up over and over again, but Savini's the main one. I didn't want to get too confusing, got it. So, friends, thank you for not being confusing. Yeah, I try.

Speaker 1: 51:45

Wilhelm met artists and writers while he was in Berlin, and Berlin was to Wilhelm what Paris was to Jacob. It helped culture him, opened his eyes. He saw more literature, more art, and he was very inspired to just be among the writers and artists. He didn't really want to be a law person anymore. He was like I like this, this is what I want to do. He grew up.

Speaker 1: 52:04

Yeah, wilhelm did return to Kassel in December of 1809 and reunited once again with brother Jacob. Now, by this time, the French secret police were everywhere, the French had taken over and the Germans were now speaking French and taking on French customs. The brothers felt massive pressure to obtain the German culture and preserve it before it was gone forever. So they kicked into high gear and started collecting stories. That's where we're going to end. Part one.

Speaker 1: 52:38

The Brothers Grimm. I know who knew their childhood is like a fairy tale. It is. Now I get it. Now I'm understanding their stories more and more. Yes, yeah, and we're not even really going to talk too much about the stories they did, because they didn't write a lot of the stories. They did get them from France, from Austria, from Germany, from Sweden. They wanted a Germanic preservation more than like a country preservation. They were looking more for the Germanic people.

Speaker 1: 53:09

But we'll get more into that, ok, yeah, so this will be three parts. That was a lot and we didn't even get into the storytelling. Sorry, yes, but I felt like it's perfect because it's, you know, mid-september. It's technically spooky season. I know it's fairy tale season. Yes, having a three-part grim episode is gonna be be great. Yes, perfect timing. Yay, so we are done.

Speaker 1: 53:34

And you get two more episodes with my twin, sam. Yay, I hope you guys can tell the difference in our voices. I can't. I can't Stop laughing, like me. God damn it. Our cadence is too much the same. Alright, well, while you're waiting for the next Grimm Brother episode to come out, please follow me on Instagram at Borrowed Bones Podcast. Also, if you could like and follow us on Apple Podcasts, spotify, anywhere you listen, engagement really, really helps. I get really bored, sad and lonely. So please comment and like. She has a twin, but she's lonely, just like Jacob and Wilhelm.

Speaker 1: 54:11

Do you want your instagram? Do you want? Do you want to throw out your instagram handle, or do you not give a fuck? I don't give a fuck. You have a private account? Yeah, it's not. Yeah, it's private. I don't really participate by posting. I usually just you don't do anything, I don't do. Yeah, I don't post anything anywhere at all. Well, I don't have facebook, so I don't know what your life is like on there. I don't do that either. Okay, okay, so you're not missing anything. Hooray, we communicate outside of social media. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. All right, thank you, bye, bye.