Borrowed Bones
Families build you up, tear you down, and sometimes drag you into something truly unhinged. Borrowed Bones unearths the bizarre, toxic, and fascinating stories of family dynamics gone sideways. From the macabre to the just plain strange, we’re digging deep to uncover the skeletons hiding in the closets of history, culture, and beyond.
Borrowed Bones
The Brothers Grimm: Part 2
The second part of our Brothers Grimm series follows Jacob and Wilhelm through their publication of fairy tales and their groundbreaking academic work during a turbulent period in German history.
Sources:
Britannica.com, The Gottingen Seven, National Endowment for the Humanities, Grimm's Law Podcast Episode, Britannica.com Congress of Vienna.
E-Mail the show at BorrowedBonesPodcast@proton.me
Hello everyone. I'm Sarah and I'm Sam and you're listening to Borrowed Bones. You guys didn't realize that at all, but we switched. We switched places. I'm Sarah and I'm Sam and you still are listening to Borrowed Bones, a podcast about fucked up, interesting and toxic families. This is our second part of Brothers grim, and sam is still here, hello. Even though no one can tell us apart, yeah, our family's even having trouble telling us apart with our voices, yep, so, um, sorry, but I don't know. We're gonna push through. I was born with it. Yeah, we were born this way.
Speaker 1:All right, we left off part one, just a little refresher, with the French fully taking over. And there's King Jerome Bonaparte is now the king of Westphalia, the region they all put together, and Jacob is now the librarian for the king. Ok, and remember, he has flexibility within this role so he can study, work and search for those fairy tales, collect, preserve the culture. All of that's happening. There are also other projects that jacob's working on in the background. They're not only working on these fairy tales. They're very academic scholars like they. They're very into words and stories and language and grammar and definitions, everything boring about words. Jacob is very interested in All the boring stuff. Yes, he's into it. Yes, he does view the fairy tales as important still, but Wilhelm was the one that really was the driving force for, like, collecting all the tales. Jacob kind of gets more credit of being the the main grim brother, but Wilhelm really did the most for the fairy tales. Okay, jacob did a lot within his field so he did great things for that, but Wilhelm is the fairy tale guy. So by this time when Jacob's working at the library they're like into the fairy tales. Now they're writing them.
Speaker 1:So right now, at this point, they're focused on collecting the stories. Okay, and they don't really write them ever. What like they? I think they have a couple of stories they do write from completely original, but I don't really know what they are. They collect stories, ok, so we'll talk about it.
Speaker 1:Yes, ok, they began by researching and collecting written works. That's how they started collecting stories. They, because they work in libraries and they research and that's what they had. But they knew that there was more to it. They knew that there was more out there that has not been written down yet. It's all folklore, it's all verbal. So they began to search. They spoke with housekeepers, mothers, soldiers that were passing through. Anyone like kind of normal, I guess, anyone that's just been around, anyone like kind of normal, I guess Anyone that's just been around. And the brothers would publish the first volume of. I did not. I forgot to look up how to pronounce this. Oh no, the English version is Children's and Household Tales. Okay, so they finally published their first volume of Children's and Household Tales Okay, in 1812.
Speaker 1:All from stories they just collected from people, yep, and all they did was just write them down. Yes, they said that's what you said. I'm writing it down. We're preserving history here.
Speaker 1:Yes, this was five days before Christmas, so it was open to the public just in time for the holidays to buy things and give as gifts, and this was fairly well received. They sold over 900 copies during their first three years that it was out. So, like, not too bad, too bad, but nothing really of like notoriety. Okay, just enough for them to be like we did it. Yay, just enough for them to be like we did it. Yay, people compared the importance of this book and work to Martin Luther's translation of the Bible into German back in the 1520s. What, like? The scholars and academics in their world were like this is so important. This is just as important as Martin Luther making the Bible German Wow yeah, luther making the Bible German Wow yeah. So they knew, I think, because the French being there, you know the people taking it over. This is like Germanic history yes, very important.
Speaker 1:This was not for children, though. It had no illustrations. It had like notations in it that Jacob would make like scholarly notes. It had graphic violence and sexual nature to it. It was more of those stories that you tell kids to scare them. Okay, and it does tell a story. Usually it's not like a sing songy rhyme, nothing fun really. Yeah, another interesting thing I noticed, or I found out, was that there were no stepmothers. So there was snow white in the first edition. There was cinderella. All those stories were in the first edition, but they had real mothers. So snow white's real mom was trying to kill her in the original, yeah, so things like that. Interesting Wilhelm, though he argued that it could be for kids.
Speaker 1:He said that if he had kids he would tell them this and he looked at Jacob and was like our mother told us stories just like this growing up, like what's the problem? But Jacob just viewed it more as a like poetry, moments in time, something to capture. Yeah, for history. Yes, he even said that it was for the oldest and most serious people. Oh, ok, yeah. So basically that was like a fuck you, wilhelm, you are wrong, this is for the oldest and most serious. Yeah, that's kind of how Jacob was. But Wilhelm was like I don't care, I don't care, it's for kids, I like it. Yep.
Speaker 1:So with the mild success of the first book, the brothers were ready to move on to the second volume of Children's and Household Tales. So they have multiple editions. So the first edition. Now they're making a second volume of the first edition. Got it? They redo this time and time again, and this is why people think they wrote them, because they start to really edit a lot.
Speaker 1:Okay, their second volume grew very quickly. They had a good amount of supporters this time, so they were able to talk to more people. People were coming to them now with stories and even though the brothers were making headway with their second volume, napoleon was still around. He was still doing stuff. But it's now 1812 and Napoleon's army was failing. They were in Russia at this point and you can't really fight Russia Like the land itself is harsh.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and Napoleon was just too far away, and so the French were starting to get pushed back and now they're being pushed back into Prussia and King Jerome was like I know how this is gonna go, this is not gonna be good for us French people here. So he told Jacob to pack up the Hessian books and the treasures and to send them all to France, all the German art and literature he's trying to steal, and he's asking Jacob to send it To do it. Yeah, jacob was very upset, he was horrified at the thought of losing all of this and he did his best to convince the king that these things were not worth taking. And he was pretty successful. He still took some stuff, but Jacob was like literally saving Germany's art and literature. That is wild. I had no idea. You don't think that. Why would you? Right, I never thought of that.
Speaker 1:Strange, as this is happening, wilhelm is still collecting fairy tales. Oh, wilhelm, mm-hmm, just in his own little world over there. He really is Jacob's serious, like in some serious business, trying to, you know, save the world, pretty much, save the German world. And Wilhelm's like I want more stories. Yep, yeah, here I go, pretty much. Yeah, that's none of my business, but the stories are. So here I go. Pretty much. Yeah, that's none of my business, but the stories are. So here I go.
Speaker 1:The Grimm family. They made a lot of sacrifices to support the Hessian army Jacob and Wilhelm's younger brothers, carl and Ludwig. They fought in the army and in 1813, jacob was called back to official service and he became the secretary to the diplomats. So he's working for the government again. Because it's Hessian again, or with still Westphalia, so, yeah, german, I don't know. At this point it's so messy. I'm not a world history girl, I'm an American history girl. Yeah, okay, so I don't know this very well. Okay, but he's now working for his people again, okay, in the government, got it? Not the, not the French, the French are gone, the French are gone, they're gone. Now, jacob working for the government again. He was sent to Paris to help negotiate peace on behalf of the Hessian government, okay, and he quickly became bored once he was there. But he loved it so much the first time, yeah, and now he's bored. But he loved it so much the first time, yeah, and now he's bored Because he's working like in the government, right, yeah, he's not doing research with Savini, his friend, yeah, so to help him get over this boredom.
Speaker 1:Jacob would hunt for some more folktales while he was in France. He couldn't do it as much as Wilhelm, though, but he tried. He also would ask them in like a cheeky way like have they heard of children's and household tales? Like, have you heard of this work though? Hmm, and I found this interesting. Jacob even wrote letters to Sir Walter Scott in Scotland about fairy tales from his country. Like, hey, do you have any you want to give me? Yeah, I'm collecting. It's just interesting, the people they brush shoulders with, I guess. Right, right.
Speaker 1:But no matter how busy Jacob kept himself, he was struggling with being apart from Wilhelm. Yet again, remember those boys. He can't handle it. But yet here he is in Paris again. Yep, without Wilhelm. Jacob would write to his brother about how he missed home and how he would dream of Wilhelm at night. I just can't with them. What is happening? They're weird. And Wilhelm's the same way, kind of he's a little more, not as much. So Wilhelm writes back, reassuring Jacob that, hey, your desk and chairs are waiting for you, along with a peaceful life once you return. Like you're good? Yep, it's all good, yeah.
Speaker 1:So while Jacob was in Paris, he was then sent to Vienna, austria, in the summer of 1814. The European leaders were all meeting up to redefine the borders after napoleon messed it all up, and they were meeting in vienna for this. Okay, so what is this a part of it? Is this like a actual name of this, like summit? Oh, yes, history, yes it is. This was called the congress of vienna. Okay, and he was a part of that. Jac Grimm was there, big deal, helping put Europe back together. He's a big deal, he really is. I didn't realize he was this big of a deal. He's in the background. I mean, he's not like a diplomat, no Itself, but he definitely was the backbone of the diplomats. He's there At that time, yeah, and his job while he was there was to translate documents as the Hessian delegations met with Tsar Alexander I of Russia and the King of Prussia, along with other nobles that come from Austria and Great Britain.
Speaker 1:The best of the best, they're all there. The rabbit holes I've gone down on the Tsars of Russia, oh well, jacob probably knows some of them. I don't know the rabbit holes. I know some of them. I don't know the rabbit holes.
Speaker 1:Jacob was not impressed, though, with the Congress of Vienna. He wrote a letter to Wilhelm, he stated that either nothing happens or when it finally does, it's underhanded, petty, vulgar and moribund, as if no great days lay ahead. I had to look that word up, moribund. Yeah, I was like um, it means at the point of death, wow. Word of the day yeah, moribund. I wish I was better at editing. I would add like a little word of the day yeah, moribund. But yeah, he really hated it. He also said that our urgent basic needs are so clear that a little child could lead us on the right path. Politics are still the same today. My man, yep, still the same, doesn't change.
Speaker 1:Jacob grew very restless. He was away for two years, wow, and he hated government work and he was often scolded for not being social enough. He just became like a hermit. He just wanted to do his job be done and he just wanted to go home. And you can see this aggravation in him and some of the letters he writes to Wilhelm. He starts poking at Wilhelm saying you're not writing me enough. Like, what are you doing? I'm all here, all alone, and you're not even writing me. So then Wilhelm writes back and he details and outlines every letter that he's written to Jacob and he also says hey, man, the post isn't really reliable, yeah, and he mentions I've sent things out on these dates. You might not have received these letters yet, like. He's just like what's your deal? Right, you're being a stage five right now, straight on stage five, and we're brothers. Yeah, we're not lovers, we're brothers. Yes, don't get it twisted. When you read their letters it's hard to like. I would love to give the letters to someone and not have the names down, yeah, and just be like what do you think? This is almost like going through like ann lister's journal. Oh man, um, so back at home, will helm was appointed secretary to the librarian. Reminds me of like assistant to the regional manager. I don't know what that means Assistant. So Wilhelm is secretary to the librarian. The job wasn't very great, it didn't pay well, but it was something.
Speaker 1:While working, wilhelm was still hunting down fairy tales for that second volume. And Wilhelm did finish the second volume of children's and household tales and he sent a copy to Jacob in 1815, jacob still being a little bitch boy, and he criticizes the actual paper, the physical paper, and he's like it's too thin, you shouldn't have used it and the price is too high for such shitty quality. Oh, my God, wilhelm did not respond. There's no response found and I FYI Next letter. Fyi, jacob, I did not respond to this letter. In case you were wondering yeah, yeah, this one didn't get lost. This one didn't get lost Because it was never sent. I just really imagine him taking the letter, crumbling it up, throwing it away and just like rolling his eyes trash, yeah, just, this is trash. This is trash. Yep, wilhelm did write jacob with the news, though, that their aunt had passed away, their aunt henrietta zimmer, that they lived with in the castle.
Speaker 1:Jacob finally returned home in the fall of 1815, and he was putting the finishing touches on a project of his called german legends, and this was stories that were not fit for fairy tales at all. Okay, it's just something else he's been working on. I like to mention a few of their other projects, so we know that they're working on a million things at once. Yeah, I'm not even mentioning everything they're working on either, it's so much much. He published German Legends, and then he published a second volume of it as well, in 1818. But both Jacob and Wilhelm are credited for pretty much all of their works, even though one will work on it more than the other. They just shared everything. Yeah, I feel like they just go through life like they're one person. Right After German Legends was published, jacob received a new job because the position above him, the person, passed away Okay, and so he was able to move right up there.
Speaker 1:So Wilhelm then took Jacob's old position. They each moved up a spot. Then the brothers would work together for several years. During this time, jacob was working on quite a big project. It consumed him quite a bit. So this is the main reason why Wilhelm started collecting a lot of the stories on his own.
Speaker 1:Okay, we're going to get academic and technical, because it's Jacob and it's difficult for me to talk about, so I'm going to do my best, okay. Okay, the project that Jacob was working on changed how we view language forever. Yes, I am speechless. I am stunned. I don't know what to say about that, so let us continue.
Speaker 1:Yes, there is a grammar rule that's called Grimm's Law. This is after Jacob, okay, and his project that he was working on was called German Grammar. So that's the book that he was writing German Grammar. Yep, he's very straightforward. Okay, german legends, german grammar. And because Jacob studied language, he was very curious and fascinated by the history of language and the evolution of language. Okay, I'm going to try and explain Grimm's Law. I listened to a podcast that was just about Grimm's Law, an episode. It was an hour long, just about this. So if you are confused, after my explanation, I did my best I will put it in the show notes, the link to this episode of the podcast that I listened to.
Speaker 1:All right, all right, so before Jacob came along, people were always interested in studying language. They knew something was happening with it, like OK, it evolves and changes, but they kind of just accepted it. And Jacob realized while studying languages that certain ones have similar patterns to others. He realized that Sanskrit is related to German as much as it is related to Latin and Greek. They all come from the same ancient Indo-European language. Okay, he noticed that phonetically, certain letters sounded the same or they were used for the same words or sounds. He just started noticing certain patterns. For example, patera in Greek is father and then it is pater or pater I'm not really exactly sure in Latin, but then it's vater in German and in English it's father. So you have an F for father, a V for vater, a P for pater or pater, and they all mean dad or father.
Speaker 1:Okay, so Jacob's like this can't be a coincidence, right? This is too similar, too close together, and so that's basically it. He sees the pattern they seem to all stem from the same Indo-European language and he says that we can use this to further understand where our language will evolve to, and understand how we moved throughout the world, and kind of see, it's kind of like finding fossils, right, little traces of history, right, that's the best way I can explain it. Well, that was a good job. Okay, I understand it completely. And now I feel like I'm on acid and know the secrets of the universe. Yes, he unlocked it all. Yes, so, yes, so he discovered it.
Speaker 1:At first it was called the Law Discovered by Jacob Grimm, and then it eventually turned into Grimm's Law, and then the book German Grammar was a bestseller in 1819. Yeah, fair tales be damned, this grammar though, this grammar, though it slaps, let's get it Like. I don't understand the Germans back then. No, no, that would not be my first choice. No, I'd do German legends first, yeah, yeah, and then probably the children's and household tales. Yeah, wilhelm was working on some medieval shit too in the background as well, so you'd probably probably be interested in that. Yeah, I feel like Wilhelm is is more my brother, yeah, than Jacob is my brother, yeah. So if I'm gonna pick a brother, it's gonna be Wilhelm, because he seems not as serious. Yeah, for sure, like I can see that Wilhelm is like I want to go listen to some stories. Yeah, I want to tell them. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I like listening. And here we are today. All right, and now we're in 1821. And Wilhelm, because the German grammar was so well received in 1819, he wrote another edition that was published in 1821. Okay, in 1819, he wrote another edition that was published in 1821. As Jacob was working on the second edition of German Grammar, wilhelm was working on the second edition of Children's and Household Tales the second edition, not a new volume. So he's starting a whole new fairy tales, new stories, new collection.
Speaker 1:Wilhelm wanted this one to be more for children this time around, but he wanted to keep the sex in and the out-of-wed pregnancies in as well. Specifically, well, like he wanted to keep everything in there, but maybe soften some of the words, or maybe he basically was making it less academic, not necessarily better for kids, right, he said you can fool yourself into thinking that what can be removed from a book can also be removed from real life. He's like. These kids have to learn about it someday. I mean, that's true. I liked that quote.
Speaker 1:He's anti-censorship he is, and I'm all for it. Yeah, europe has way less censorship than we do with, like nudity, sex, that kind of stuff. I don't know if they censor in other ways, I'm sure, but I think we would be surprised to see what's on daytime tv there there's probably boobies and peepees, exactly. Yeah, I'm sorry my nanny side came out boobies and peepees. That was stupid. I feel dumb. I feel like an idiot. The millennial urges talk like this. I hate when we laugh at the same time.
Speaker 1:All right, he did, however, take out um inappropriate phrasing, like he ended up editing rapunzel. He changed it to where the prince does not impregnate rapunzel, because that's the original story, okay. He changes it to where, instead, prince does not impregnate rapunzel, because that's the original story. Okay. He changes it to where, instead, he writes they loved each other dearly, yes, okay. So now we're starting to see how they're putting their fingers in. Oh, that was bad, that was something. Okay, that was something. So now we're gonna see how they're putting their stamp on things. Okay, that was better, let's go postal. Yeah, and that's why you'll see things like the Grimm's version of Cinderella, the Grimm's version of Snow White, the Grimm's version of this, of that, because they'll edit things.
Speaker 1:Okay, as Jacob and Wilhelm were doing their things, working on their projects, the count that the brothers worked for I don't know if I mentioned that they work for a count. I don't think so. Okay, I got nothing. I don't think so. I think we just talked about how they have a boss. Okay, well, they do work for a count. It doesn't really matter, but I'll say count multiple times. Okay, yeah, the count, they work for a count. And this count ends up passing away and the count's son took his place.
Speaker 1:The brothers enjoyed working for the dad. They got along well. They were given freedom to do their own work, as long as they got their shit done. Yeah. The son, however, was just a little prick. He just was a jerk, like for no reason. He was just like a nepo baby. Yeah, that's what it sounds like. Yeah, the Grimm's didn't get along with him very well at all.
Speaker 1:This new count the son. He moved his mistress into the main house where the brothers lived, so they were kicked out around christmas time in 1821. They still worked for him, though they just didn't get to live there. Okay, yeah, so they had to move above a blacksmith shop and Jacob called it a dark hole. Oh, but they still worked for this guy. Yeah, that would suck, that would. Yeah, is there no more room anywhere else in this place? I don't know. That's where they had to move, that's where they went. Yep, they were not happy about this. So they're working here for a few years. Now we're in 1823.
Speaker 1:And there's a British man named Edgar Taylor who translated some of the Grimm fairy tale stories. Instead of getting mad because they didn't get royalties or anything, this is just straight up stolen work. It's just translated and added some fun things to it. The Grimms saw this and they gave him credit for giving them more success and an even better reputation. So they were kind of like you know what Thanks? Yeah, that worked out, and they didn't, like I said, they didn't get any money from it. Yeah, that worked out, and they didn't like I said, they didn't get any money from it.
Speaker 1:But the brothers liked how the English version was a little bit softer word wise than in the German version, and this also gave the brothers the idea to. I've shown you they were drawn by Ludwig. He drew his mom, his dad, his I don't know if he drew his dad, his dad died really young, so not his dad, but he drew his mom, brother, sister, all of them. So seeing this, jacob thought maybe we can soften our version. We don't have to use this high German, this intellectual stuff. We can make it easier for kids. We can get rid of those scholarly side notes. Yes, it can actually be for children. Yes, so they finally released an abridged version of the children's and household tales. So they made it smaller, because the first one had, like I think, 85 or 86 fairy tales in it. Wow, yeah, the abridged one had 50. Okay, yeah, really condensed it. Yes, 50. Okay, yeah, really condensed it. Yes, and this was published in December of 1825. Okay, also in 1825,.
Speaker 1:Wilhelm marries no, yes, no, he marries Dorchen Wild. They were friends since childhood. Okay, their families were close because her parents died when she was young, so she hung out with the Grimms quite a bit. And Wilhelm and Jacob are in their 30s at this point. Late bloomers yeah, I don't know if this story is true or not, but it's speculated that Wilhelm only married after he and Jacob had a conversation and agreed that one of them needs to get married in order to have a household, to maintain the household and get things done, because they were always working Right. So Wilhelm loved Dorchen, but I don't think marriage was on his mind until they had, like a conference about it. They actually had to talk about it, yeah, as one person. Yes, one of us needs to get married. Yeah, so somebody can do something around the house. Yep, and Jacob would remain a lifelong bachelor and he would live with Dorchen and Wilhelm. You know, it's all making sense, fairy tales. Yep, the Grimm brothers. Yep, wilhelm and Dorchen named their firstborn son after Jacob. He was born in December of 1826. He did pass away, though, unfortunately at eight months old. Aww, yeah, in 1828, two years later, dorchen does give birth to another baby boy and they name him Herman, and he survives Okay, and Jacob and Herman get along very well.
Speaker 1:Jacob is like the best doting uncle, like he just loves Herman, and the way this relationship is talked about reminds me so much of Jacob when he was a little boy and his aunt Schlemmer. Oh yeah, the way that they just loved each other. Yeah, so I feel like Jacob wants he? I feel like he almost just wants to be this role. That's like he's the the way his aunt was. His aunt was the oldest in her line of siblings and she never had kids and she moved in with her brother and his wife and helped take care of their kids and Jacob and her were besties. Yeah, I just think Jacob is like this is my role, this is who I am. This is passed down to me. Yep, it, this is who I am. This was passed down to me. Yep, it's almost like it was written for him. It was written Herman even gave Jacob a nickname.
Speaker 1:Herman would call him a Papa, a Papa Uh-huh, which is baby babble form of Papa. They do say Papa in Germany. Okay, so this baby decides to give him the name a Papa and it stayed with Jacob their whole life. Yeah, and I thought that was cute because it's like more than an uncle, but like it's like second dad, right, I thought that was just really cute. That is really cute.
Speaker 1:I was a nanny for a long time. So little nicknames that babies give are just. I just love them. I'll forever be Rara to some of those kids because they couldn't say Sarah and they grew it, and they just grew up and they always just call me Rara. I love it so much anyway, fuck them kids. No, I'm just kidding, I'm totally. I just had to say it. I came out of nowhere. Oh sorry, that's really that came into my head, I'm sorry. Oh okay, you can totally edit that out, because I I'm not. That was funny. Come on, that's what came to my head, we'll see what makes it. Oh, okay.
Speaker 1:By this point, wilhelm and Jacob were scholarly successes. They were well-known within their field, within the academics. Their reputations were great. Yes, jacob even received honorary doctorates from different universities. Yeah, I don't want to say the names because they're German universities, but I can still hear you. That's what dad would say. Oh yeah, he knows some German. He does know some German.
Speaker 1:During this time, though, the brothers were still working for that count boy who hates his dad. He wasn't nice, he was such a little prick, like that's all I can think of when I read about him. I don't, I don't like giving him a title, like he's a little count boy, little count boy, okay. And there was a point that came up where jacob should have been promoted and then Wilhelm would have been promoted because someone passed away. That was higher up, yep. However, this count gave the position to someone else. He was playing favorites.
Speaker 1:Jacob was pissed and he felt snubbed after working for the government for over 20 years. He was like you're going to pass me up, me, right, jacob Grimm? Yeah, what, I'm already living above a blacksmith. Yeah, what, I'm already living above a blacksmith. Yeah, sure, because of you, you already kicked us out of our home. So the brothers were just done and they found work elsewhere, at the University of Göttingen in Hanover. I did look that one up. Good job. Yes, I don't know, I'm not saying it correctly. Still, I've listened to it a million times. The German dialect is difficult, right. They found work at the University of Göttingen in Hanover, and Jacob was 44 and Wilhelm's 43.
Speaker 1:Okay, in the winter of 1829, jacob and Wilhelm said goodbye to Kassel, where they live. It's been their home for so many years now. Their family was still in Castle, aside from one of their brothers, ferdinand, who was working in Berlin. Their sister, lottie, lived there with her husband. Their brother, carl, worked as a tutor, teaching English and French, and Ludwig was getting married soon. He's the artist and eventually he would become an art professor. Okay, their mother and closest relatives are also buried in castles. They're leaving. They're leaving everyone Bye, yep.
Speaker 1:But they felt this was just the best future for their family. Right? Wilhelm was going to be the librarian at the university and Jacob would be a professor of philology, which is a study of language, as well as a librarian. That's very fitting. Oh, yeah, he's like a philologist first and foremost. Isn't that fun to say, yeah, philologist, philologist.
Speaker 1:It's almost like kind of like Christmas, like fa-la-la-la-la. Oh, yes, yes, I was like it's nothing like Christmas Actually, it is Fa-la-la A gist. Actually. Cannabis, fa la la, la, la, la, la la la gist, exactly. I'm never going to unsee that. Now I'm sorry, because that's all I see. Get ready for my Barbra Streisand jingle bells. Every year I sing it to the family. It's my favorite thing in the entire world. I know every word. I love Barbara. I mean, who doesn't love Barbara? But your rendition is fantastic, awfully entertaining. It is awfully entertaining. That is so true, so true. All right, back to the brothers.
Speaker 1:When they left, they went without Dorchen and Wilhelm's son Herman, because Dorchen was six months pregnant at the time and she wasn't feeling well right before their journey, so she had to stay behind and get better. That was the plan anyway. Well, when Dorchen got better, herman fell ill and then which delayed the departure even more Wilhelm ended up going back to castle to help Dorchen with Hermann, and they made the journey back to Göttingen in a heated carriage. Wow, yeah. So I looked up how carriages were heated. Yeah, I was like what? Because Wilhelm was like we'll get the sun, we'll do this. And she didn't want to go because it was winter and she's like Hermann just got over this illness, we don't want him out in the cold again. So then Wilhelm's like heated carriage, no problem, they just use those portable foot warmers or those Like in Little Women when she was sick, and they put in the bed. Yeah, like that, they just have those in there. They put hot coals in, yeah for sure. Yep, super easy. I was like do they have like gas lamps in there? Because that's really unsafe. Do they build a campfire? Yeah, because this doesn't seem safe. No, no, it's not that extreme, it's just hot coals, probably. Yep, that's it Interesting, and like an iron kind of thing, and they cover it and you put your feet by it and done and done.
Speaker 1:Now that everyone's in Göttingen, it was difficult for the Grimm brothers to really acclimate to their new home and their new work-life balance. Jacob and Wilhelm did not like the city. They didn't find it appealing. They felt the city lacked charm. There's a river that passes through the city, but it was narrow, muddy, more like a creek. Okay, they just didn't really like it. There wasn't any magic to it. No, no romance. Yeah, they didn't realize that they've been living in a fairytale life literally now. Right. Basically, they're like a normal city, what they wanted.
Speaker 1:And there wasn't much oversight from the university. They weren't breathing down their necks. There also wasn't really much of an emphasis on religion. It was more of a secular university which allowed more freedom. And during the first few years of the Grimm's working there, the university's reputation continued to grow in a very positive way. There was a lot of advancements and scientific achievements that were done there. It was just like doing great. They didn't like the town or city, but they were doing good work.
Speaker 1:But even with all this happening, jacob and Wilhelm still didn't feel like things were quite right. One thing was that even though Jacob had the freedom to do his job really well, he didn't have a lot of extra time to do his side projects because he was a librarian and a professor and he just couldn't be bothered by that kind of stuff. He's like I have real work to do, shaping young minds. Don't care, he doesn't care about being a professor, he just does it because he's supposed to. Yeah, now we're jumping to 1830. They're still living at the university, working there, and Wilhelm's family was growing. Dorchen had a second baby boy and his name is Rudolf, in March of 1830. Oh, mm-hmm, pisces, oh, yeah, nice. A few months later they got word that Lottie's baby girl passed away. Oh, lottie, I don't know how she passed away, but she did.
Speaker 1:And while the Grimms were in Göttingen, there was another revolution in Paris in 1830. And Germany was watching, mm-hmm, and Germany was watching. At this time, in Paris, the French king was forced out by the people due to his favoritism toward the nobles Sure and he put on a pretty heavy restriction of free speech. Ooh, and this was not good, because what they did in France was they censored an essay that was written by a docent that was affiliated with the University of Göttingen and that basically is someone who is an adjunct professor, like they're not quite a professor, but they're almost a professor, so someone that worked at the university wrote an essay that was not allowed to be published in France. Okay, and that was the last straw in the camel's back over there. Yeah, but because Germany's involved.
Speaker 1:Rioters took over the city in Göttingen in January of 1831. They were like fuck this, full circle. Yes, wow. And they demanded that their kingdom because, remember, germany still has kingdoms that they wanted a liberal constitution written for them. They're like we want a constitution, we want to make sure that we're safe and taken care of and that you're not going to do this same shit here. Yeah, they paraded through the streets wearing white armbands and brandishing weapons. The rioters threatened to set fire to the library and the librarians had to stand watch that night and day, meaning Jacob and Wilhelm. Several thousand troops were sent to stop this uprising in the city, which lasted just over a week. It was like quite a while. I feel like to have a city doing stuff. Jacob didn't really like the rioting. He said it was despicable and he blamed the rioters for the reason. Wilhelm got sick because he stayed up all night at the library and then Wilhelm fell ill and he got really sick and Jacob thought he was going to die. He did not Okay. He was sick for a few weeks, though, and he ended up getting better just in time for his 45th birthday. Good, so good to go, perfect.
Speaker 1:Now, since the revolution in Paris, germany was very uneasy, still all over, and Jacob and Wilhelm were keeping an eye on the changing political climate. They were like all right, we're like right in the middle of it yet again. Here we are, here, we are Always here. They just find themselves there, yep. So to prevent any sort of revolution from happening, the kingdoms did agree to write a constitution. So we have the kingdoms of Saxony, hessen and Hanover that are like yep, people will do what you need. We don't want, we don't want that, right? Yep. So everyone's like happy at this point, but it's kind of like this tense yeah, standoff, all right. So that's happening in the background, ok.
Speaker 1:Now also in 1831, wilhelm becomes a professor for the university. He's still a librarian, but he's allowed to be a professor now too. Wilhelm really liked it. He was great at being a professor. His classes were well attended and he taught old German, old German, yep, the language. Yeah. Yeah, I'm guessing Wilhelm was also named a corresponding member of the Prussian Royal Academy of Sciences in Berlin. Yeah, I just like to give him credit Very prestigious, because not a lot of people give him credit. Yeah, yeah, he's doing stuff too, he is, he's working. Yeah, I like Wilhelm, I like him.
Speaker 1:In August of 1832, wilhelm and Dortchen had their last child, a little girl, and she was named Auguste. Augusta, auguste girl, and she was named august, augusta, august, a like august with an e at the end. Yeah, um, probably augusta. Yeah, kind of like the henrietta, henrietta, I think. Yeah, so wilhelm has two sons herman, who's four, rudolph, who's two, and then this new baby girl, augusta.
Speaker 1:I just I read this, and these are some of herman's memories that I wanted to talk about that he has of his dad and his uncle. Okay, yeah, so Herman remembers in his early years that his uncle, jacob, a papa, would always be like hunched over his desk, scribbling rapidly, can't get everything out fast enough, right? And then how his dad, wilhelm, wrote slower, more thoughtfully, and Jacob just couldn't get it done fast enough. Yeah, yeah, he said that his father and uncle enjoyed nature, that they would use rocks and shells as paperweights and they would also use pressed flowers and leaves as bookmarks. I cannot with these two, I know I cannot. Weird and cute. I don't know't think today of any man today that would just like use pressed flowers. That is a that's terrible that we've evolved. I know, cole, you need to start using pressed flowers as bookmarks. Yeah, exactly, cole, I don't think he's gonna listen to these. He doesn't listen to these ever. Oh, okay, well, if you start using pressed flowers. I know you've listened.
Speaker 1:Anyway, dorjan also didn't really like the new city. I kind of forgot about her, but yeah, she didn't like it either. You know, everyone forgets her, everyone forgets the girls. I know I'm sorry, dorjan, sorry, dorjan, you matter, you do, but she would often write to Lottie back in Castle Whenever she was having a trip back home coming up. She'd be like All right, lottie, prepare some new clothing for me, some new shawls, some new accessories, because there was nothing in Göttingen for them, like they just didn't like it.
Speaker 1:Oh, in May of 1833, the Grimms went home to Castle for a visit, and they saw Lottie. I think they stayed with her, and she was pregnant this time. When they were there, though, lottie got really sick with influenza, which put her into premature labor, and she gave birth one month early to a baby girl. I don't know for sure if she survived or not. I think she did, okay, but I can't, I don't know that, like the baby or Lottie, the baby, okay, I'm pretty sure the baby survived, okay, don't know for sure, don't know exactly Got it. Then, soon after this, wilhelm got sick. So then Jacob went back to work and Dorchen stayed to help with Lottie and Wilhelm and like, okay, well, we're here now, yeah, and then Dorchen got sick and then Wilhelm was better, but he stayed to care for Dorchen and Lottie because Lottie's still sick, she can't seem to shake it. Dorchen recovered but Lottie did not. Oh, she got a spinal bacterial infection, oh no, and she passed away while Wilhelm was by her side. Okay, yeah, jacob arrived too late to say goodbye, but he did visit her a few times while she was six.
Speaker 1:Lottie passed away in June of 1833 at the age of 40. She left behind her husband of 11 years and her four children. I don't know if that baby girl is a part of the four children or not, but that's what I know about Lottie. Okay, Now their brother, ferdinand, is in Berlin and he was let go from his job that he's had since 1815.
Speaker 1:With no other prospects, wilhelm and Jacob convince Ferdinand to stay with them and Ferdinand lives with them for a few years. But one day in the summer of 1836, ferdinand just them for a few years. But one day in the summer of 1836, ferdinand just leaves out of the blue. He doesn't have a good relationship with the brothers, he's kind of the outcast of the family. Okay, and after disappearing he sends a cryptic and unapologetic letter to Dorchen from another town, and he didn't share his plans or what he was doing. I couldn't find what the letter was or what he said, but I guess it was just like I left and that's it. I don't really know.
Speaker 1:Wilhelm speculated that maybe he was going to pursue the theater because he liked the arts and he liked to do that. But Jacob said he's too lazy to even remember his lines. Oh, no, yeah, jacob and Ferddinand did not get along. No, no, no, yeah, I feel like jacob was the aggressor. Jacob probably was the aggressor. I do feel that way. He seems that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, however, to jacob's dismay, it wasn't long until ferdinand returned. But jacob said no, you can't live with us anymore. You can't snub jacob. Yeah, you can't do those things. He's dramatic and I think that I'm dramatic and I think we would either love each other or we would really hate each other, depending on what buttons are pushed. Yeah, ferdinand, of course, left because he wasn't allowed to live with Jacob, and he eventually settled in a small town where he lived for the rest of his life. Okay, the brothers would send him a monthly allowance, though, to help him out. So they still, like, talked to him. Yeah, they just said you can't live with us, you can't sit with us. Sorry, you can't sit with us, you can't sit with us, ferdinand.
Speaker 1:Nope, early in 1834, wilhelm's physical state began to diminish once again. For six months he could barely take care of any of his responsibilities, and after he recovered, wilhelm was just depressed and avoided social gatherings for most of 1835, 1836. Okay, he does get better. He ends up pulling out of it, but every sickness that's coming is just getting harder for him to shake, harder for him to shake. I'd just like to point that out. Yeah, he struggles through life. Yeah, yeah. Okay, we're going to get political now again. Alrighty, all right.
Speaker 1:In 1837, the king of Great Britain, uk, ireland, was also the king of Hanover, so where the brothers live. Okay, he died, and because he didn't have a legitimate heir to the throne, his niece, victoria, was crowned queen, all right, so we have Queen Victoria, and this was fine to be queen in UK and Britain and all of that, yeah. But the kingdom of Hanover, which is where Gotöttingen city is, they had a rule that said women not allowed like it's, only can be a man. So in Hanover specifically, it was given to the dead king's brother, ernest Augustus, and in Germany he's known as Ernst August. Okay, so he takes power in June of 1837. And now he's the new king of Hanover and he has this constitution that was written in 1833 to protect everyone, right, and he goes nope, I don't like it. And he is all about nobles and restrictions and shutting things down. And he doesn't like the professors and the academics. So he says no to this constitution, new rules. And he says that everyone needs to swear allegiance to him, including all the professors. You all need to bow down, let's go. Yep, they didn't like this. Oh my God. They said no, no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 1:And on the night of November 17th, one of the Grimm's friends, one of these scholars, wrote a statement of protest. Okay, and it was stating that they were going to stay true to the original oath to the constitution. We have an allegiance to the constitution, not to you. When you have so many different powers that take over you, you have to. You can't care anymore about that. Right Like. You're just someone from another country that's coming in. You're not one of us. Right Like. You can't do this, right, yeah, we have an allegiance to ourselves, exactly so.
Speaker 1:The following day, six other professors signed this statement, along with the one who wrote it, so seven signatures are on this statement saying, yeah, we agree, we're not doing this, including Jacob and Wilhelm, and they became known as the Göttingen Seven. Okay, this is a big thing. Wow, it's like the Avengers. Yeah, avengers assemble. This is crazy. Yeah, and the students of the university immediately supported it. They were like hell. Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:There's a rule of thumb as well, and I learned this from the grims. They say something to the effect of you should always be on the side of the students, because who has more time than college students to be so invested in everything? Right like right. I think that's just a good rule of thumb. Okay, yeah, we can take that rule. Yeah, I'll agree with it. If students are protesting, the powers that be. There's probably a good reason for that. Yep. So the students supported this and they made copies of this statement of protest on signatures and they distributed them throughout the area. They flooded the city with them. They even sent them outside of their kingdom of Hanover and they asked for newspapers to publish the statements. And they were like, we need to get this out.
Speaker 1:On December 4th, there was a Judiciary Committee meeting and all seven professors admitted that. Yep, we did sign that, we freely signed it. What you gonna do? All seven were fired. Yes, and that's what happened. Okay, I'm sure. I'm sure there's more you know. And jacob and a few others were actually told to leave the kingdom of hanover all together. Wow, within three days, or legal action would take place. Yeah, okay, wilhelm wasn't banished from the area, he was just fired, but Jacob was banished. Yep. Upon learning this, the students went into the streets and they protested and some were even jailed. It was a big deal. Left with no choice. Jacob moves back to castle and he moves in with his younger brother, ludwig, and his wife.
Speaker 1:Okay, ferdinand is still asking for money living in wherever, like that's. I just like to keep tabs of what's happening. Ferdinand is like just like an artsy nomad. Yeah, like a like the actor. Yeah, artsy nomad that's how I view him type of guy. Yeah, because he does write a few little fairy tales like he actually writes some himself. Okay, he uses a different name, though he doesn't want to be associated with like Grimm, because they have a lot of published work. He just, you know, I don't think it's a bad thing, he just wants his own credit, yeah, but he just never really makes it big.
Speaker 1:You know the brothers, after getting fired and after this big gotting in seven, they had a very difficult time finding new jobs because the government that they live under doesn't like them. Yeah, there were some people that supported the Grimm's and would collect money for them and give it to them to help them get by. They were living on the kindness of others. At this point Wilhelm stayed in Göttingen with Dorchen, but they felt like their house was empty. They really missed Jacob. I know, I knew that was coming. They both did. I knew that was coming, they both did. Oh, in 10 months after Jacob's dismissal, wilhelm and his family moved to Kessel and they reunited with Jacob. They surprised Jacob on his birthday in 1838.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I thought that was cute. That is cute. I don't know why. It's weird for me to think of people in like the 17 and 1800s doing cutesy things. Yeah, like just taking the time to be like isn't this sweet? Right? Like all of the historical movies and drama period like period drama sorry, period drama, drama periods they just all seem like very not affectionate. Yeah, yeah, you can't do that, but there seems to be quite a bit of affection that's shown in the grim family overall. Right, like they keep close relationship with their siblings. They stayed close with their mom and dad and grandfather as long as they were a lot like, yeah, they stayed close, right. I just, I don't know, I always forget that they do cute things, that humans are humans, no matter what year. Yep, exactly Yep, but still without work, the boys ended up taking an offer to make a comprehensive dictionary of the German language.
Speaker 1:They didn't want to. This wasn't something they were interested in. It was offered to them and they didn't have any other prospects. So they were like, all right, I guess we'll make a german dictionary. That sounds horrible. Yeah, while working on the dictionary, jacob published his third revised edition of german grammar in 1840. Because he's got that grammar. Yep, he does, yep, and wilhelm was completing more medieval works, german literature and he also issued the fourth edition of children's and household tales. He's just going, yep. Also. In 1840, they accepted an invitation from the king of prussia to go to berlin where they would be members. They would both become members of the Royal Academy of Sciences and they would lecture at the University of Berlin. So they finally got jobs, but they still have to work on this German dictionary as well. They left Kassel in March of 1841 and they arrived in Berlin five days later to start their new jobs. Yes, and Berlin is where the brothers would spend the rest of their lives. This is where we're going to end.
Speaker 1:Part two. That was so much information. Yeah, my brain can't is like going to explode. Yeah, I know, that was a ton of information. I was like you had a lot of like dead stares. I was like are you hearing me? Yeah, I can hear you. I'm just like what now? What's next? See, lottie's dead. Yeah, I know, in the first episode in part one of this, when I was editing, it's like replays in my head of what's lottie gonna do. You just are so concerned for lottie. She's like not even a part of this at all. She died from meningitis.
Speaker 1:Uh, was you said a bacterial spine infection. Yeah, it was called like myitis, not meningitis. It was like myelitis I don't know how to pronounce it. Cool, yeah, bacterial. Is it similar to meningitis then? Is it basically the same thing? Yeah, an infection which that'll get you back then. It sure would, that can get you today. If you don't catch it. It sure will. It can kill you. It can. Anyway, jeez, louise, okay, they're in Berlin now. They're in Berlin, and part three will be coming to you in another week. Yes, but they're slowing down now. They're not doing as much crazy stuff.
Speaker 1:Part three will be easier less information, heavy Overloaded. I mean, this is again, again, why it took eight months to figure out, because I thought this was going to be one episode. Yeah, like, the amount of information you probably had to like sort and sift through, yes, is outrageous. I learned a lot about the holy roman empire and I don't need to, and this is something we care about. I know about their currency, how the currency changed over time, because it was the Holy Roman Empire and then it became like Kingdom of Germany and then it became whatever. That's a lot. I can't even tell you what's in my brain right now. You know how there's ripperologists to study the ripper Jack the Ripper Sure, because I am one of them. Well, yeah, I feel like I'm a grimerologist. Oh, that's where I'm at, but anyway, um, that's it for part two.
Speaker 1:I do want to do a quick little update on things that are happening with the pod. I am making merchandise. I am working on a website making merch, so keep an eye out for that. I will most likely post things on Instagram about it first, because that's just easiest for me. So follow us on Instagram at Borrowed Bones Podcast and keep an eye out for new merch That'll be dropping soon, hopefully. And Sam, you don't care to give your Instagram this time around. No, all right, but yeah, that's it, and we'll have part three of the Grimm Brothers in a week. Woo, bye, bye.
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