Exercising the Gifts in a Biblically Grounded Way Makes Disciples - Night of Hope

Hope Church in Jersey Village Texas takes a unique and well rounded approach to the gifts of the Spirit that promotes Biblical accountability and disciple-making. They do this through a regularly scheduled church event called "Night of Hope". Learn from their Elder Jake how they do it practically and make disciples as a result.

Check out Hope Church at https://www.hopehtx.church/

Partner with The Prayer Culture Podcast here https://www.2ormore.org/give/

Want to know more about how 2 OR MORE can equip you? Check our FREE Biblical prayer meeting guide here https://www.2ormore.org/

Spotify Podcast https://open.spotify.com/show/3JitwJz...

Apple Podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast...

Want more content? Check it out here  https://www.patreon.com/c/2ORMORE

Transcript

SPEAKER_07 0:00

When we prophesy, we don't prophesy from a place of authority or power from us. And and it's and it's not about us. It's about it's about other people. This is the Prefair Culture Podcast. That's why we have the rep mugs. Okay.

SPEAKER_09 0:22

Uh-oh. Yeah, that's why.

SPEAKER_08 0:23

Oh, I need to be lefty. I was gonna do that, but uh that's dicey. Yeah, I did the same thing. Why didn't y'all think about that if you got these mugs? Why didn't you think about that, Michael?

SPEAKER_07 0:35

And I they got me on the free shipping deal. That's why I got the mugs, actually. I wasn't gonna get them, but free shipping if I get the mugs. China. China. And they're pre-tRF. I paid like I paid like half of it was the shipping I would have paid. So fast.

SPEAKER_09 0:53

What a steal for these lefty mugs. That's why they were so deep.

SPEAKER_10 1:01

That's why they were lefty.

SPEAKER_07 1:04

Blue lefty mugs.

SPEAKER_09 1:08

What are we gonna do with all these lefty mugs?

SPEAKER_07 1:12

All right. So we're here at the Periculture Podcast, and today we have Jake, uh not from State Farm. And uh yeah. One of the only Jake's not from State Farm. Uh Jake is with Hope Church and it's in uh Jersey Village area in in Houston, Texas. And um uh today we're gonna talk about something that they practice that I just think is really cool. And uh it has to do with practice of prayer and practicing uh the gift of the spirit. And so uh Jake, tell us a little bit about Night of Hope. Sure.

SPEAKER_08 1:47

Um, yeah, it kind of it kind of came from um a little bit of the desire of our church. Um, kind of the background of our church is people that are kind of more um theologically conservative, but kind of usually getting introduced to the actual practice of spiritual gifts like prophecy or tongues or uh pursuing healing. And so um we wanted a place outside of our normal Sunday gatherings. Um, and a lot of our um the life of our church happens during the week and what we call community groups or discipleship groups, similar to a lot of churches. Um, but we wanted a dedicated space where we're pursuing these things together, where we don't just agree that the Bible says these things are active and that we can expect the Holy Spirit to move in these ways. We would all agree on that, but we want a place where we can actually start engaging in that, start practicing. What does that feel like? What does that look like? How do we learn together? And how do we have a space where people feel feel comfortable and safe to actually pursue that, as opposed to this is just something they're experiencing from some other people on a Sunday service who are prophesying, which I'm all for that. Um, but when someone can step into a night of hope and actually see it happen themselves, but also engage in it themselves and also have a place where they can step out and take a risk and have some courage. Cause I think that's a huge piece of it, especially in the context that we're coming from. Um, most of the the error that I see on our side is we're just too afraid to step into these things. So we would rather uh play it safe than see what the Holy Spirit could do in the midst of a church. So that's kind of the the short of why we started what we call a night of hope.

SPEAKER_07 3:29

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So generally, what does the flow look like in your night of hope? Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 3:36

So um I think I think one thing that I would like to say is that it has evolved and will probably continue to evolve. So this isn't this isn't something that we started doing. And one, I I wasn't a part of starting doing it. I was just a part of the church and then kind of evolved into help leading them and now lead most of them. Um uh, but there's part of the flow is there's not a lot of leading, which is the interesting piece. Um, but we we really view it as, you know, we haven't found, we don't feel like we found the formula or the exact right way to do this. But we want to pursue it with humility, but actually pursue it. Um, we think about the the you know, the scripture of the Corinthian believers meeting together and a lot of some correction that Paul had to bring in because they're all speaking in tongues at once. Um, but he is assuming that the Holy Spirit is moving in their midst and that they're open to that happening. Um, what we have trouble with is assuming that the Holy Spirit's gonna be active in our mitts, moving and speaking and doing things. So that to create the space to do that, the way that it looks, what it looks like now is usually just start with worship. We just start with kind of preparing our hearts and worship. Um, and uh normally what I help lead people into at the beginning is just a time of silence to bring their day to the Lord, to bring everything they're walking into that space, lay it at the feet of Jesus, and then invite him to move however he wants to move and be open to whatever that looks like. Um, and so, you know, I think about it in the terms of when we think about the early church just getting together in a very simple way and the Holy Spirit giving different people different things. Um, I just the the phrase when I was praying through it um one time with the Lord is that they didn't they didn't come with much prepared, but they came with open hearts. They came with expectation. Um, what we tend to do is come with everything prepared. Yeah. Not necessarily with open hearts, not necessarily with a high expectation that God will be there. Um, but we want to gather together mainly because we believe God's gonna be there. And we want to get some great plans. And that really is. I mean, we have to recognize, and I think that's what we've tried to do, and we're still learning how to do it. Um, and I this is truly an evolving thing, and God could say, hey, I want you to do this differently, and we're very open to that. But the the thing that we're trying to combat is we are very good at putting, tend to be as a tr as the American church, we've we've kind of got church down, we know how to do it. And so we're good at putting something together. We're good at coming prepared, we're good at knowing these are the things we can do to predict that we're gonna get X, Y, or Z that we want to see and feel good about ourselves when we go home, whatever it is. Right. So what we do is kind of have a time of silence, open up, um, you know, prepare our hearts before the Lord, want to receive, want to be expectant. Um, we have some worship. And then I usually just sit down and talk through First Corinthians 14, usually, um, where Paul is bringing some correction because they didn't have it, they didn't have it figured out right, but they're all speaking in tongues at once. But he doesn't tell them, um, you're you're getting this wrong, you're missing love. So stop doing everything you're doing. Stop pursuing prophecy, stop pursuing tongues, stop pursuing healing, stop expecting the Holy Spirit because you've screwed up, he's not, he doesn't want to do it. He doesn't say that. No, he he reorients them back to the goal, which is love, which is upbuilding, encouragement, strengthening, and comfort of the church. Um, so he reorients them and then he invites them to look at it in a different way. Um, and so what we do is we just lay that out and kind of talk about where that came from, talk about maybe where we would miss it as opposed to where the Corinthians would miss it. Because I don't think we should look at that and assume, oh, our correction would be the Corinthian correction, right? Um, so think about that and just lay out this is what they came. They came, they got together, they came with expectation, and somebody had a prophecy, somebody had a hymn, somebody had a teaching, somebody had a revelation. Um, and how do you do that in a way that is building up the church? But then what we do is we get into circles, um, depending on how many people are there, it could be three to five to six circles. Uh, we usually have somebody that's you know been a part of it for a while that can lead uh those circles and we pray. We we we give some uh some ground rules, some some instruction. I can talk about some of those things, uh kind of some practicals on how we do things and how we don't do things. Um and then we sit and we wait. Um and uh that's the piece that I I feel like the Lord has put his finger on is ever almost every time we do it, um, I uh sit down in that circle and we stop talking, we pray, we invite the Holy Spirit in to do what he wants to do. After we've given instruction, after we've given some practical advice, and we sit and we wait. And every time I'm like, Lord, is anything gonna happen? Yeah, because no one's talking, no one's playing music, no one's we're just waiting in the Holy Spirit to give each other something that will build up encourage and comfort. And every time he shows up, every time in in ways we wouldn't expect, in ways that encourage people in a way that maybe a sermon never could, maybe a song never could, even you know, what whatever we're we're bringing. But he knows the Holy Spirit is so personal and he knows each person so so individually and uniquely. And he longs to use other people to enter into those specific, unique places and bring just piercing encouragement, um, tearing down the lies of the enemy and the works of the enemy. Um and I I really uh believe that we see that so powerfully happen only because we stop talking. Yeah, yeah, we s we listen and we wait. Um, and we we are all on the same page of what this is for. It's not for just for experience, for experience's sake. Uh it's not so we can become we can be the church that practices the spiritual gifts. It's because we need God to show up and to strengthen us and to build up his church, and he wants to do that. But a lot of times I think we are the the hindrance to that happening. Right. So hopefully that answered your question.

SPEAKER_09 9:56

Yeah. That's uh I mean we've experienced that too. That the silence and waiting is so difficult for our culture. That's the hardest piece to integrate. And it's but it's so crucial. The waiting. And uh you've it really emphasized this in your ministry, Michael, that having waiting time that really says something. You're if you're constantly talking and executing what you've prepared and expressing your thoughts, yeah, then that means you're not actually listening or expecting God to say something, you're not expecting the spirit to have something to say. Uh and when you're quiet and you allow for that discomfort, that like the And it is, it's we're not used to it. So it's uncomfortable. And that I really identified when you said like every single time you sit in that circle and you're like, oh my gosh. I know. As a as a church leader, that is one of the most painful experiences. I can't control this. Yeah. I can't. You're sitting there imagining how awkward everyone feels. Right. No, Michael, you're wrong. Right. No, I must be in control. I'm the one who knows. Now, I just I appreciated that you said that as a leader. Um, that you know, if somebody is wanting to say a church leader or anybody in the church is wanting to start developing this ministry of waiting on the Lord and expectation and actually practicing these gifts from the spirit, that that awkward feeling, yeah, and the the discomfort of waiting on the Lord and nobody saying anything, yeah. Yes, you will feel that. Yes. But if you will press on, if you'll push through, because that feeling coming from us, not from the Lord. Yeah, you know, he's completely comfortable, yeah. But that feeling comes from us, and if we can push through that, then there is a reward for pushing through.

SPEAKER_08 12:00

And I think a piece of that is just simply he's he's looking for hunger. Yeah, he's he's looking for people that really are willing to go to the uncomfortable places because they need him and they want want to see more of him. Um, and I think that is I think he loves to respond to that.

SPEAKER_07 12:16

Yeah, I agree. That's good. So when you started being a part of Night of Hope, because you said you weren't there in the very beginning, yeah. But when you started, what was kind of different then as opposed to now? Like how has it evolved? Yeah, I was wondering what's changed.

SPEAKER_08 12:31

Yeah, that's a good question. Part of part of this, um, I was told my wife, what's uh what's hard is I have I have like one of the worst memories. So like I'm always worried, like, did I am I remembering that that correctly? We did it a little bit different in that um we didn't have as much what I would talk about space. We we had people um that would submit prophetic words and that those would be shared. Um we had someone that would potentially share a tongue, but someone was who is ready to interpret. Um and uh we need to come back to that. We'll come back to that. Yes. Let's make sure to yes, the tongues and interpretation. Um and uh and so it it and then we would we would break up in into smaller, into smaller groups, but it would you would have things it was a little bit more structured, yeah. Um, and things that you would walk through and things that you would pray through. Um, and so it wasn't it wasn't as uncomfortable. Yeah. And so it wasn't, I don't think it was wrong. I don't think it was a it was a bad way to do it, but I think that was the the invitation of the Lord was to to break down a little bit more of that structure, right? Um, to provide to have structure, not no structure, not chaos, you know, not you know, obviously what Paul is trying to avoid for the Christian church. Um, but again, I think it kind of comes back to evaluating our context and like where are we struggling as a as a church and where do we need to receive maybe some uh some correction and and what's the challenge that the Lord has for us? What's the challenge the Holy Spirit has for us? Um and so it was like we're gonna we need to do a little bit less and a little bit and also just a little bit more risky where and somebody could miss something, somebody could mess something up, somebody could do something wrong.

SPEAKER_09 14:11

Right.

SPEAKER_08 14:12

Um, and how do we are are we okay with that? Is that the number one thing to avoid? Um, is somebody messing up or doing something wrong? Or or can we handle that and grow through it together? Yeah. Um, and so I would say that's the biggest difference is is a little bit a little bit more structured.

SPEAKER_09 14:30

Yeah. That that is hard because uh, I mean, obviously, when you when you read the Bible on this issue of spiritual gifts in the community and all those things, of course, the Bible is encouraging us to get it right, you know. Like we don't want to be wrong, we don't want to give false prophecies or speak on the Lord's behalf, but He wasn't the one who gave you that. Nobody wants to do well, some people may want to do that. We don't want to do that, but then it's you also don't get the impression that playing it safe is going to accomplish much. Yeah. And it's like it's almost like the desire to be right has to be rooted in the spirit, not in the flesh. Where the, you know, the flesh just wants to be right so that we can avoid awkwardness. It's out of fear, you know. Well, what happens if somebody's wrong? You know, is someone's life gonna be derailed or are they gonna whatever? And but if it if it's the desire is rooted in the spirit, then you're willing to step out and say, I I believe the Lord is saying this, but you're also willing to be wrong and be corrected, yeah. And go, no, that's not correct. And you go, okay, I'm still learning to hear, you know, and then everybody goes, Oh, congrats. Nice job. Way to step out instead of like oh bar the church doors, kick them out.

SPEAKER_08 15:55

You know, I'm sorry, you're a false prophet. That's where we begin stoning.

SPEAKER_09 16:00

Right. Everyone pick up their rocks, you'll find one under your seat. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 16:04

Getting everything right, lined up, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 16:07

So well said, yeah. Uh yeah. So I the desire to to play it safe in order to avoid controversy or uh that is a delicate thing to manage. We want to be right. Yeah. We we want every word to be accurate. But if you're if you're only willing to say the things that couldn't be wrong, yeah, you know, if if every prophetic word is Jesus loves you. Yeah. Uh which he does. And sometimes he wants to say that, you know, but if you're not if you're not willing to say the thing that you believe the spirit brought to mind, even though you don't know how it could be correct. Yep. Which I mean, we've all heard famous examples of it. The one I always think of is uh Dr. Michael Brown in a group. You've heard this one before that there was uh in the context of a small group of people who knew each other, one person believed that uh the Lord was wanting to say to this woman who was new to the group that that God hates mommies and daddies. And this comes to his mind, which is risky, yeah. You know, I think the Lord's saying he hates mommies and daddies. It's like quite risky. Quite risky to say that. Yeah. Um, but he just said, Well, okay, you know, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I think this is what the Lord's saying, so I'll just throw it out there and let it be weighed by everybody, as Paul says in First Corinthians. Let the others weigh what is said. Yeah. So he says it, and the lady just begins to weep. And it turns out that her dad molested her as a child, and he called it a game. Mommies and daddies was the name of a game that he that he was molesting his daughter. So I mean, it was the Lord telling that woman, I hate what happened to you. I wasn't involved in that, you know. So very powerful. But if you're not willing to risk it and say the thing that you think the Lord is saying, you'll never that person wouldn't have received that encouragement, that comfort.

SPEAKER_07 18:09

I would say it's kind of important when you have a word like that to press in with the Lord a little bit more and go, okay, Lord, like what is this? Yeah, like I think you should have a process when you have a word to first say, is this scriptural? And then according to multiple passages, not just one. And then what's Lord, what do you want to share more detail with me? That's good. Because it would help me to have more detail. Yeah. Um, I think that should be part of our process. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_09 18:35

And sometimes he does help understand, and sometimes he doesn't.

SPEAKER_07 18:39

And it's just like other than other we don't endorse Dr. Michael Brown, so he's in the middle of a controversy right now. So we're yeah, he's I have to say that like we're on a podcast. He's he's embattled.

SPEAKER_08 18:51

Um yeah. So um and that's a let me just piggyback on that. Yeah, we we do um, you know, you you want to give people courage to step out and risk. I think that's our biggest challenge, right? Um, but at the same time, like what you what you said is is incredibly important. We we do share with people if if what you feel like you're receiving from the Lord is a hard thing or very sensitive, what we would encourage you to do is actually grab somebody you trust, one of the leaders of the church, share with them first what you were sensing. Um, and then let let's process process it together and kind of bring that into community. Um, because that's, you know, I think that's a it's a healthy, obviously that hard thing of you want to you want to encourage people to risk. Um, and there are ways you can risk without giving something that might be that sensitive or that difficult. We had one example where during the night of hope, one of the ladies felt like she received a word from the Lord that one of the ladies who was pregnant was gonna have a really hard delivery, really hard pregnancy. Um, specifically delivery, if I'm remembering correctly. Um, and then some words around that of encouragement and comfort and that things were gonna be okay. And she brought that to my wife. Um, and they processed that together. Um, they've they sense the Lord just really wanted them to pray into it, not necessarily share beforehand, but have it down. Uh, everything that she felt like the Lord shared with her exactly what happened with the delivery and with the pregnancy. Um, and so then when she shared that afterwards to the to the mom, she felt so loved by the Lord that the Lord saw that, that people were praying for her of what she didn't know what was going to happen, but they did because the Holy Spirit showed them it would happen and they were interceding for her during the delivery and the in the pregnancy. And so um, it's things like that that we would encourage. Like, you know, that might not have been the right thing to share with her at that moment. Um, and I think probably it played out how how God wanted it to. And so those things are important to have down when you enter into those spaces.

SPEAKER_07 20:54

We actually talk about this in season one in a word from the Lord episode. We talked about that. So you can check it out there. Yeah, you should check it out because you know, I was waiting for you to give me opportunity. You haven't listened to every episode again? Yeah, is it? Yeah. Um Yeah, no. So part of the process I think is valuable is asking the Lord, you know, first, is the scriptural the holy scripture? Um, Lord, do you can you share more detail with me? Um I've had the Lord say no to that. And sometimes he says yes. Yeah. And then is it time for them to hear now, or is it better to wait? Okay. Um and you know, one example we had with uh tongues and interpretation was we were sitting, we were at at church and um I was praying and the Lord gave me a specific tongue, and I thought he was giving me interpretation for it. And I'm like, Lord, should I share this? Uh and he's like, wait. Like, okay, yeah, I can wait, you know? And so uh 20 Minutes later, we're praying over one of the ladies in the church, and somebody else shares the interpretation verbatim, word for word. I think maybe the very last word was different, but it wasn't like crucial to the meaning of the word. And then I'm like, that's it. And then we shared it. Yeah. So um so I remember that. That was amazing. Yeah. So um so yeah. And I mean, I think that leads into we'd really like to hear some stories, examples. Like what are the things God's doing at Nitro?

SPEAKER_08 22:36

Yeah. Um it w some of the things that are are beautiful really are when people risk and the things that they're seeing or the thing because a lot of times when when I when I talk about the the Lord sharing with someone, I know you guys know this, but like pictures, a lot of times it comes in pictures or a scene that they see um that the Holy Spirit gives them, or it's specific words. Um, and so there's just like it's such an eclectic mix of beautiful things that Lord does from like little small things. And I also love the mix of people like my 13-year-old was in um circle, you know, a couple weeks ago, and somebody shared something with him about basketball, and he loves basketball. They didn't know they didn't know him at all, and it really connected with him on a on the what I what I love it, connected with him on the level that he could receive it because it's the Holy Spirit and he knows, and so is this gave to this stranger who didn't didn't know him at all, to you know, 86-year-old men in the same circle, and God's speaking to him through through the same and through different ways. And so um uh one um one story um that's really beautiful that involves risk is um I had a guy show up at our church um and uh he he he's told this story publicly and so I've talked to him about it and he's um when he showed up at our church, uh, you know, he felt like the Lord was calling him back into church and it had been a long time. Um and he he had gone through a really hard life and became a believer and kind of left church and the whole deal, and he was like getting coffee and saw our church and felt led to step into church. And so he stepped in. He didn't feel very, very comfortable. He felt a little out of place for different reasons. Um, but somebody invited him, and I'd hope. And uh, and so he he just felt like, Lord, I'll give it a try. So he went, um, but he didn't know what it was, he knew nothing about it. And so as he tells a story, he's sitting in the back, and I'm explaining what we're gonna do and what this is about. And he is to himself, I've got to get out of here. I have to thanks for the coffee. Yeah, I have to get out. And then I start explaining, we're gonna get in small circles, and he's like, This is the worst thing in the world. I've joined a cult. Yeah. A hundred percent, a hundred percent. But to his credit, he he said he prayed and he said, God, if this is from you, I'll I'll I'll stay and I'll I'll receive whatever you want. Um, and so um they get in a little circle, and um, I want to share all the the details, but first this uh girl, I mean, he's a stranger to everybody, gives has this picture and this vision. Um, and uh it's uh perfectly relates to his position where he's at at work and the Lord speaking to him that he's a light in this workplace, it's a very blue-collar, hard place. Um, and it just exactly described what he was going through, but with a with a image and a picture. Um, then um uh this was the the riskier one. This one of the girls in the group um felt like uh she had the lyrics. I think um if I'm remembering correctly, it was uh lyrics to a Hootie and the Blowfish song. Oh wow. I did not expect to hear Hootie and the Blowfish. I don't think she did either. But she she's like, I I don't know who this is for. I'm this is I'm getting I can't believe it.

SPEAKER_09 26:00

Already so proud of her. Oh, uh you have because who wants to be like, well, you know that Hootie and the Blowfish palm? I think the Lord is nobody wants to have to give that word.

SPEAKER_08 26:12

Nobody wants to do it, but that's I think that's a point is we want to create that the point of nine of hope is create the environment where that can be possible, yeah where you can practice that. Um, and um, and so she shared it. And um, this was after the the first um uh vision that he felt was like, I mean, it hit him so hard that he he started crying at that point. And he's not a crier. Um, and then um that song uh was his mom's favorite song who had passed away and important in her life. And so that was like a super important song to him and it's super important because he'd always struggled with um just his mom and her his relationship with her. He felt spoken to the Lord. And when I was sitting in my circle, I was in in his circle and I looked at him and I just felt like the Lord wanted me to share with him that his grandma was really proud of him that he'd stepped in here. And the story was that his he had had a disconnect of his relationship with his mom through a lot of hard things, and his grandma had raised him, his grandma had pointed him to Jesus, and was the one that that was really would in the the word basically as he that she would be really proud that you stepped in here, and then that was just super meaningful to him that um that she she was gone, um, but that that she would have been proud and that the Lord saw that and spoke that to him. So it was like a combo of three different things that were all in different capacities. Um, but it he he just went from super skeptical to feeling incredibly loved by the Lord, incredibly seen by the Lord. Um, some other things that the Lord does like bring up um just healing, like if the you know, hey, there's what there's one moment where I felt like the Lord wanted it was very small, wanted to heal wrist pain. Um and I was like, that's weird. Lord, I don't want to say the part of the thing is wrist pain is like super small, right? Um and nobody said anything, but then the following Sunday, this um girl came up with her husband um and uh and and said, I feel like I was supposed to come up, I've got this thing, and it's you know, it's going from my wrist all the way to the thumb.

SPEAKER_09 28:15

So I so she was there. She was there. She just didn't want to come up.

SPEAKER_08 28:19

Yeah, she didn't want to, she didn't want to come up. Um, and uh and so then she felt bad, and on Sunday she came up to me. Yeah, and uh and it was kind of like um issue and numbness. And so I started praying for it. Um, and it was slowly getting better, and I just felt like the Lord want me to keep praying, keep praying, and it slowly went away, went away, went away. But as I was praying, I felt like the Lord was showing me during it that this wasn't specifically about the wrist pain, that there was there was some major issue in their life and in their relationship that um they had thought was getting better and and just it was going backwards, and that the Lord wanted them to have hope that that this could um could get better. And I shared that and then I prayed again and I shared it again, and then I shared it one more time, and they were like, then they opened up to me all these things. Um, that turned into a like a pretty close relationship with me and with my wife uh to walk with them through things that were much deeper than wrist pain. Yeah, but that would never have gotten opened up, probably, um, in their relationship and opened up to us specifically, had I not shared wrist pain. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 29:26

That's a powerful message. That's like, hey, that's this is like discipleship is a result of praying over wrist pain. Yeah. And I think a lot of our Bible-centric audience misses that. I know for the longest time I missed it, you know, this like oh, the gift, it feels like just distract from discipleship, kinda. When in reality, God uses that to evangelize and disciple people through. Discipleship was his idea.

SPEAKER_09 29:56

Yeah. No, it absolutely. That's powerful. You know, it makes me think of First Thessalonians that don't despise prophecy. Yeah. That to view anything the Lord wants to say as being too small or meaningless, and you have no idea the door that that word would open up into a person's life. That may seem so oh, wrist pain, you know. Yeah. But that's a big deal to the person. And then when that word tells that person, oh, the Lord is speaking to me. Yeah. He sees me, he cares about me. And all of a sudden their heart opens up and the Lord starts really speaking.

SPEAKER_08 30:32

That's really good. We we don't know what he's after. We know he's after the fullness, right, of our of our restoration and healing. And he he loves us uh desperately. But you know, we we real we need to realize how much help we need with the Holy Spirit to know how to get into those places. And a lot of times he's not gonna show us how that's gonna happen. We just have to take the step that he's giving us. And and and oftentimes you're just incredibly surprised, like that's what opened the door. And and it's not just to stay there, but it's to your point to bring them deeper into relationship, we've got deeper freedom, more freedom in their life. Um, and we don't like you just don't know what that is gonna look like. Right, right.

SPEAKER_09 31:10

Yeah, and you know, I I'd like to hear what you guys think about this, but I feel like I've had some experiences in this arena with trying to hear from the Lord for other people, that the Lord is also concerned with not embarrassing people, making a spectacle of people's heart issues, their life, their past, you know, their sin. Um, there are times that I know the Lord would have people publicly called out for their sin if they're in leadership positions, um, if they have a big influence on people, if they're a public figure, you know, have a public following, whatever. But I think most of the time the Lord wants to take care of people and not ex embo uh embarrass them and expose them to embarrassment. Um, so that you know, it could be the Lord wants to work in this couple's life and their marriage and these things, but he's not gonna come right out in front of a whole group and give a word about that issue. He's gonna say, let's let's deal with her wrist pain and let her know that I'm here. Yeah. And then in relationship we can get into these issues, you know. Yeah. So I yeah, I I felt that once in in our church with a word that I felt like the Lord was giving for uh a young woman, and it I felt like this, I felt like it was from the Lord and it was right, but I also felt this hesitation to say it in front of the whole group. Um, and so I just framed it as I think the Lord is saying to one of us this. Yeah. And then it was like, is that anybody? And of course she's like, Yeah, I think that's me. And then she was what she offered herself, she was willing to talk about it. Yeah, um, and it opened up doors, it was really good. But I at first I felt kind of convicted, like, oh man, I I had a chance to give like the very specific word to encourage the whole group, and I kind of bailed by softening it, you know. But then later, a friend of ours, another leader in our church, was like, well, maybe the Lord just didn't want to embarrass her in front of everybody. Yeah, give her the chance, you know, it was like, oh man, I think that's actually what was happening. Yeah. And yeah, so we're all learning through this process, you know.

SPEAKER_08 33:37

Yeah, and I mean, I think the thing that I come back to is when you look at first Corinthians 14, Paul's coming right out of, let me show you a more excellent way. Like if you speak with tongues of men and you know, angels and you have not love, you've got nothing. You process prophesy, you you know, you got you don't have love, you've got nothing. So he's saying, Pursue love, but earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you prophesy. Sorry. So I do view night of hope as a is also like a training ground for prophecy, but because of how important prophecy is to building up the church, because he continues and he says, you know, he's trying to correct them of these people that think tongues is the thing, right? And that's their status symbol or whatever it is. And he's saying, No, no, no, prophecy, unless someone has interpretation, because it builds up, it strengthens, and it comforts. And so you have this baseline of what God wants to do through prophecy is build up. He wants to encourage, he wants to comfort. They may end up addressing someone's sin, but he knows how to get there. Like the Holy Spirit knows how to get there. And so, and yeah, most of the time he's not calling out. In fact, we would say if you feel like the Lord's telling you about that with someone else, that's one you also go get someone else. Right. You talk to them about that, you process it together. It's not something you say um directly to them, even if you feel like you're because I mean, I've heard of abuses. We haven't experienced anything like that. I've heard of that happening. That's a terrible thing. Um, because you have to come back to like, what is he, why is he wanting to do this? And it's to to to come to connect with God's heart for prophecy, to realize like how much he wants to encourage people, how much he sees them and knows where they're struggling, where they're weak, um, where they need encouragement. And he wants to come and encourage, and how much they're they're in pain and they're suffering, they're dealing with these things, and he wants to come and comfort. I think it's beautiful that he wants to use us to impart that to others. But you have to, we have to realize that if we don't pursue it, people are missing out. And they're missing out on what good a unique way that God wants to bless their life and bring freedom. Um, one of the things that the Lord um did for me in Idaho, I I don't know where I heard this, but I heard it somewhere and it just connected with me that um like blue jays are connected to prophecy. I don't know if I believe that, whatever, I don't know where that came from, but somebody said it and I don't know what God probably just used that to just lodge it into my brain. Um, because what that did for me is every time I see a blue jay, I think of I think of prophecy, and I usually pray for it and ask God that it would that would move in our in our community and that it would flourish and that it would just be everywhere um in in our community and our people. Um, and uh one day I was I was sitting outside, um, had a had a time I was over at Linear Theological Library, was sitting on a bench, and uh there's some nature out there um and there's these trees, and there's just like this this big collection of trees and bushes that were in front of me, and I was just sitting in the quiet listening to the Lord, and there were incredible amount of blue jays flying everywhere in the trees, like they were just jumping everywhere, all in this bushy tree area. And and so I thought of prophecy, and I was like, Lord, what is this? Why am I seeing all these blue jays? And then when I look closer, in the midst of the bushes and the trees, there was this birdhouse. Um, and so the birdhouse had been placed in there, which is why there was all these blue jays uh flying around. I thought the Lord spoke to me about night of hope being a place like a birdhouse, where it's a safe place where those where those blue jays can can be and can flourish, but not for the sake that of them staying in the birdhouse, not for the sake of prophecy staying in night of hope, but that you learn what that feels like, what happens when God does it, you start to love it more, you start to experience God's heart for it, so that it moves out into your world, so that it moves out into discipleship groups or Sunday services or strangers, which I've found incredible how the Lord has has and talk about risk and like almost every powerful encounter of prophecy that I've I have had or that I have given to someone, I've been less than 100% certain. Oh, yeah. Usually maybe 50% is great. Pretty strong feeling if it's 50% is strong. But when you have a place to practice, yeah, when you have a safe place, when you have the birdhouse, if you will, you can do it, you can risk, you can be okay if it doesn't go well. Um, especially if you're just starting out and if you miss it, we know that this is a place where we're learning together. But as you grow and as you learn, oh, I might have gifting here, or I'm learning what this feels like. The the goal is that it moves out into the world because it's so powerful. Um, when one, we're connecting at a heart level of why God wants to do it, but also what happens when it happens and what it feels like to do it.

SPEAKER_10 38:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 38:34

Um, and so I've just had some beautiful encounters with even strangers outside of Night of Hope that don't know Jesus that are experiencing, oh, God, God is it might actually be real and actually sees me. Right. Um, but I attribute that a lot to the places of practice that we do as a community.

SPEAKER_07 38:49

Yeah, that's really good. Really helpful. Do you feel like it's grown your community generally and prophesying outside of Night of Hope? Yes, I do, but I want more.

SPEAKER_08 39:01

Okay. Um, it definitely has because it's normalized. I think it's normalized um getting quiet and listening to the Lord. Um, even like what we had a community group last week, and somebody was going through something, and um, one of the guys was praying, and he just shared a very short, I'm getting a picture of this, and I'm seeing this, and I feel like this is what the Lord is saying. It was very short, very small, um, but it was just normalized. It was normalized in our discipleship groups. Um, there's different groups um that do this where they'll you know pick one person and hey, we're just gonna pray for you and we're gonna sit and listen to the Lord. Um, my wife group did this um this semester, and to every single one, the person is just left so built up and so encouraged because they're praying for them, but the Lord is revealing things and they're sharing it with them, and it's in a in the proper context, proper place. People know the deal. It's almost like you're creating a culture where we know how to operate in this, we know what not to do. Um, but we're expecting God to do it. Right. Like when we sit and pray for someone, we're expecting what we're expecting that God will speak to us for them. Um, and you know, he doesn't always, but most of the time, he I think he does. Yeah, which is a different from not at all if we get to most. Right. That's pretty good.

SPEAKER_09 40:19

Yeah, if you don't expect and you don't ask and you don't listen, then you're definitely not. Yeah. I mean, the Lord can, and sometimes he does just be like, hey, yeah, wake up. Yeah, I'm talking here. But I think most exception. I'm talking here. Is that how he talks? Yeah, that's how God that's that's God's voice in my head. Right. That's exactly what is he so annoyed at me all the time? Uh and from New York. Yeah. Uh, you know, speaking of like prophecy to people like in a public context or strangers outside of the church, outside the safe group kind of thing. Um this is interesting to me, but I have found actually that uh there are certain well, okay. So the the community that we do church in is predominantly pretty poor um and very misled about God. Uh a lot of common kind of myths and mystical thinking, and there's a lot of paths, and honestly, there's witchcraft. I mean, we know people who identify as pagan, you know, and witches and things like this, which, you know, if you're listening and you think like that's some archaic medieval thing, it's really not. You know, it's a very modern thing. They're around you, yeah. And uh there, and there's real power, not Jesus's power. It can't stand against the power of Jesus, but it's it there's real power there, anyways. Spiritual people, so they're spiritual, they may not know Jesus, but they're spiritual. And I have found it's so interesting. People inside the church, when there's a I believe the Lord is saying something to you, or the Lord showed me a picture that I think is for you, and I wanted to describe it to you, that it's like what? You know, but these people outside the church are actually like, oh, okay.

SPEAKER_08 42:16

Yeah, I'm open.

SPEAKER_09 42:18

Yeah. That sounds like something that would happen. Yeah, that you would get a spiritual experience and share it with me. Yeah, and there's not as much shock about it. Yeah, you know, they may be, they may not be expecting Jesus to be speaking to them, but they're not shocked at the spirituality of it, you know, and even the weirdness of this person I don't know is saying this to me. They're just like you can stand by their mailbox and talk about intimate spiritual things, and they're they're not put off.

SPEAKER_08 42:48

Well, I mean, I think that's a good that's a really good point in that. Thank you. And I'm just gonna stop there. I think all of you. We invited you here just to just need a lot of affirmation. Uh Michael told me that. Oh, true. Thank you. Patrick a lot.

SPEAKER_09 43:04

Thank you. But I told you not to tell him to say that.

SPEAKER_08 43:09

Um that uh the church, um, in a and I think this, and I think you guys do a great job of this. Again, more affirmation. Um, of the church needs to learn how in a healthy way um to engage in in these things that may seem more mystical. Yeah, right. They seem more mystical. And one of the big reasons for that is our culture is moving more and more away from the materialistic into the spiritual, where it will be normative for them to hear from spirits. Yeah. Um, and I think they are, right? And I think it's terribly dangerous and all of the things. And so if the church isn't prepared for that, and if that's not normalized to us, and that we can't hear from the Holy Spirit, but they're hearing from spirits, right? So we gotta keep up. So it it is a it is a loving thing to do for the for the world that. Moving more towards spiritualism where that is not strange to us, and yet we hold all of the orthodox biblical Christianity that, yeah, there's there's spirits, um, but Jesus is Lord and has all authority in heavens on the earth, and we're filled with the Holy Spirit, right? And that He He is communicating to us, and that when He speaks, there's something so incredibly unique and powerful when God speaks, when He gives a word through you to someone else. Yeah. Um, even like, you know, more than just the circumstance of sharing the story of hey, this would this happen. Oh, that's very cool. Like for that person, because we all know it, when someone has given us a word, yeah, it's like, oh, I just it's piercing. And we need to get used to doing that for each other. Um, sorry, another bird story. You guys love birds. You told me you love birds. Um beforehand.

SPEAKER_09 44:50

Just talking about, I just happen to be talking about my love for birds and his insecurities. That's fascinating. I have bird stories, Jake said.

SPEAKER_08 44:58

This is uh little insight to our pre-podcast chat. Um uh this was after the the the blue jay incident. I was uh actually outside sitting in the backyard of my parents' yard, and they have a bunch of fruit bushes and they have blueberry bushes, and and uh there was this um crow sitting on this little wire thing, and it was going and snatching these blueberries from their blueberry tree. And I don't know why I was watching it. I don't know what apparently I watch birds a lot. Um, but um you're such an old guy. I know, man. That's so true. My kids would definitely agree with you on that. Um, and there's it was taking these blueberries and then as and it would go back to its little perch and uh nasty little crow. And then as it was there, um, this blue jay came and started dive bombing it. Oh dive bombing the crow. And the crow would like stay where it was, but it kept dive bombing, kept dive bombing until the crow flew off. And again, I was like, Lord, what is this? And I just felt like him speaking that prophecy. Um, it has a unique way to destroy the works of the enemy in our lives that are stealing the fruit that God wants for our lives. Not the only way that God, not the only tool that God uses to destroy the works of the enemy, to destroy the lives of the enemy in our lives. But the enemy is coming, wanting to steal fruit from our lives, to steal this growth, this fruit that belongs to the Lord, that God wants to see, and that's the freedom and everything that entails. Um, that there is a just a unique place that prophecy has that nothing else will do. Um, and so just to recognize that of like the the loving attitude of pursuing it, it's like it's not for us. It's not for me to have an experience, it's not for me to feel like God loves me more, um, which I have definitely fallen into. It's not for those things, it's it's so that people can experience more freedom, freedom from the work of the enemy, um, and they can just come alive. And so we get used to doing that inside the community, and then we it's easier for us to step out and have be normalized to to share with a stranger and just be okay. If they might they might think I'm really weird and this might not connect, right? But I'm willing to do it.

SPEAKER_07 47:04

Who knew Paul was right? It's for edification, right? It's weird. Yeah. Um, what I'm hearing, uh there's two words I've not heard you say yet. And I think they're really important that you haven't said them. I haven't heard you say authority or power. And it's not that the word power or authority are bad by themselves, but the reason I think this is really valuable is when you're talking about prophetic culture in your church, a lot of the negative stereotypes or the fear is it will become a dominant force in our church to where the prophetic leader will take us in this prophetic direction. And I think what I hear you saying is humility is at the center. Yeah. So that when we prophesy, we don't prophesy from a place of authority or power from us, but we are humble with the Lord and humble with others about it. Yeah. And and and it's and it's not about us, it's about it's about loving others and helping them see the Lord. Yeah. And so, man, that that humility being a key piece, instead of making it about authority and power, um, yeah, about humility.

SPEAKER_09 48:13

That's really important point because uh I think it's it's so easy for us to want to have that moment where we we heard something from the Lord, we delivered it as a prophetic word, it was right and it changed something, and it's like, wow, you know, and it does feel powerful when the Lord speaks, you know, when we hear and we share it and it's correct, that's powerful. But if you are if you are obeying this desire for prophecy and to give it out of out of a desire to be, to feel important.

SPEAKER_08 48:57

Yeah. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_09 48:58

Oh, that can go sideways so quickly. Yes. Uh where you start hearing what you want to hear, you know, you you start dismissing things that seem small and only willing to say things that feel controversial or big. Um and like for instance, the word about the wrist pain would have been completely missed because that feels unimportant. Yeah. So I'm I'm brushing that off, you know. Um, and and yeah, just getting things saying things wrong and being misled because you're led by your own desire to feel important, yeah, instead of leading with humility and love, and then you're just going, Lord, it's whatever you want to say. Yeah, it's however you want to say it, whenever you want to say it. Yeah, you know, it's 100%. That is hugely important.

SPEAKER_08 49:46

Yeah, and and and it it's a good point because it even goes into some of the practicals of like, you know, and you guys and others, we you know, it's not the thus does the Lord. Like the Lord said, you know, they said we we sit, we even say the things with humility of like, it's my sense that the Lord is saying this. Because it is like, don't despise prophecy, test everything, hold fast what's good. So we we're trusting one another of like, hey, I'm you know, I'm gonna submit this, and I trust that you're gonna that it's if it's good, it's gonna stick. Yeah. And if it's not, I'm okay. Like, I'm okay. Um, but the the approach with humility is just is so incredibly important. And I would say um it's so important for the people that find out they're gifted in prophecy. Because one of the things you you recognize, I think we can see this all over Christian culture, is that sometimes God will gift people powerfully. Um and and even when their hearts go off and they and their character goes away and they're and they're far from God in their hearts, the gifting still remains. Yeah. And so like having one, being it being done within community, because uh there's people in our church that are very gifted prophetically. When I'm not like there's a you know, there's there's one lady in our church, like she was talking at this point, and and she's older now, she's she's gifted, very gifted, but she's humble, but she knows she can get a word from the Lord, and it's gonna be accurate. Like, I don't feel that way. Wow, like I don't feel that at all. No, and and when she speaks a word to me, guess what? It's like she's hitting. And like it's just like an incrazy, a crazy accuracy rate. And so there's there is reality that I believe that it is our birthright through through the giving of the Holy Spirit that we all can hear our shepherd's voice. And God wants to speak to us specifically, and He wants to speak to us for other people. There are some people that are just more gifted in it, and that and there's prophetic gifting. And so to carry humility in that place is, I mean, it's so because it is scary, scary to think my heart could go off and I could keep this gifting. Yeah, um, that's terrifying. And I think holding that fear of the Lord is so crucial in combination with community. Like if you just have the prophet is the prophet, and there's there's no one else in his in his or her life, um, it's it's not a it's not a great setup. Right.

SPEAKER_09 52:13

Just just like everything else in Christianity, in Jesus' way, there's no independence. You can't there there's no independent prophet or teacher, uh or encourager or administrator, you know, that's just that's never part of the plan in anything. And that that is such a mystery that the holy like I I even think about in First Corinthians the fact that Paul is writing this letter when he starts in chapter 12 and then he breaks in 13 to say, remember, this is love, this is all directed by empowered by love, that's the motivating force. And then 14, he goes back into prophecy in tongues instruction. But the fact that he had to write that, yeah, that the Holy Spirit was empowering them supernaturally with gifts, but they were abusing or misusing them.

SPEAKER_08 53:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_09 53:07

That's weird. Yeah, think about it. It's weird. It's so weird that you can misuse a gift from the spirit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 53:15

Well, it's Simon the Sorcerer, is what it is. It's the I want to control this and be able to use it. And a lot of people who start out really good who are gifted, when their heart wanders, they're like, Wait, how can I keep this control? Because people and a lot of times it's like people depend on me for this. Yeah. And the problem was you build a culture at the beginning from the beginning that was about me and about my gifting, the man empowered, and about you now you need this. And so now I need God to do the exact same thing every time. And he doesn't. Yeah. But if I'm Simon the Sorcerer, I'm trying to make God or manufacturer use a formula so that God will do it the same way. And that's where you have these guys, like the issue with like Sean Bowles. Where he's like data mining for for prophecies. Um, it's probably he probably started out with a good intention, but the culture was built around his prophecy. And then Sunday God says, I don't have anything for you. And he's like, Well, that's not gonna work, Lord. All these people are gonna be scared. It's identity, which is who I am. Yeah, and who you're in is not Jesus and humility and community, but it is I'm the prophet. Yeah, you know, and it can happen with any gifting. Yeah, it really can. It and it does all the things. Teaching, preaching, teaching. It can happen with all of them. Um, but it's it's that you you you it's so easy to do though. And it's something we have to like guard our hearts against because it's it's very easy to do that. Yeah. And so and that kind of brings me around, like from what I'm hearing, you talked earlier about when you first started doing or going to Night of Hope, there was this kind of process that was a little bit more uh managed. And with it sounded like with prophecy in tongues and like interpretation. Um, was it like you guys had more of like, hey, talk to an elder about this thing, then we'll say this, as opposed to now you do it a little differently.

SPEAKER_08 55:23

It was actually a lot of like uh almost email beforehand, if you have any words, and then it was kind of a brought together um during the week and then shared there, uh, plus maybe some other words from from the elders. Um, and so it wasn't as like on the spot uh situation. And then the the tongue was art, we knew who was sharing the who was sharing the tongue and who was going to be interpreting um and just displaying what that looks like. Um I I you know, I think in the smaller groups there may have um also been a little bit of what we do now, but I think it was less, less because of kind of the way that it was structured. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 56:00

Okay. So are you kind of taking because I know generally two approaches in group is one is like, hey, before you say a word, you really need to run it by elders or deacons or people with some kind of measuring stick. Um as opposed to the idea that when Paul talks about we should discern is submit a word to everyone. And then we're all like, okay, this is good or this is not good, and this is why. Um are you taking like are did you move to more the approach of submit a word to everyone? Or I mean, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 56:40

Yeah, that's that's well said. I think um, yes, we move more towards that. Like when part of it also is we want to understand how this integrates more into a normal Sunday service, but we don't want to turn everything on its head, you know, and you know, this that's not necessarily a loving thing to do. Um, but within the context of Night of Hope, people kind of know at least a little bit of what they're they're stepping into, and there's some level um where they know that. And then we're setting up beforehand where it is, yeah, we're gonna share. Probably the biggest challenge 98% of you're gonna have is the courage to risk. Um, but we're gonna weigh what is said and we're gonna test everything and hold fast to what's good. I think that takes off some of the pressure for the people that are scared too, of like to share the word of like, no, it doesn't, you're not gonna ruin someone's life, right? You know, we we talk about the things maybe we shouldn't share and we should talk and process with someone else, but most of the time there are things that we can share. And if they connect, they connect. And it's funny because like, you know, I think about there's other plenty of other stories, but there's like I probably, you know, 85% of those stories I don't even know about, you know, that that happened that are really impactful and powerful to people. Um, but they're just happening in those little circles. And so it's your own circle and whatever, wherever you end up, that's it. And they're we're sharing a lot of times. It's hey, I think this is for you. Sometimes it's I'm just getting this sense for the group. Sometimes, you know, it can be really, really anything. There's a few times where it's like, hey, I think this is for the whole um room or for hope church in general. Um, and then I I or one of the other elders would share that at the end. Like someone got this word, but we think it's for the for the church or for the whole room. Um, last time one of the groups um had somebody feel like they had a tongue to share. And then what the way we do that is if you feel like you have a tongue and you don't have interpretation, ask if uh we feel like the Lord is giving the interpretation or someone is gonna have the interpretation. And we sit and if someone says, Yeah, I think the Lord's give giving me, gonna give me an interpretation of this, we just move forward with it. Um, and then we they submit that. Last time that happened and it was loud enough for the other groups to hear. So at the end, we just, you know, we know that tongue was heard, so we're just gonna share what the interpretation was, um, was given for that, um, for that tongue. So that's kind of that's kind of how we do that, but it is much more on along those lines for the night of hope is hey, you don't need to run this by. Here are some ground rules, here's some things to think about, this is why we're doing it, go for it. Um, and if we need to bring correction in some of that afterwards, if we need to correct something that happened, we're gonna do that as the leadership is gonna do that and bring that correction. But for the most part, it's it's that's how it happens. People are sharing, and it's yeah, that's connect, that's for me. And and or that just didn't land, and we move on. Yeah. So that's kind of how the setup is. Just move on and stone them. Yeah, yeah. We move on and move on with the stoning. We excommunicate them, and we that's what I mean by moving, by by move. Move them on. Move, move them on to the next thing.

SPEAKER_07 59:47

Um go back to a word from the Lord episode. I think we talked about this as well. Yeah, I think so. We have talked in the podcast previously about New Testament prophecy. Dake wouldn't know because he doesn't listen.

SPEAKER_08 59:57

So I don't listen, but I'm assuming what you said was great. Um, in all of that, like there's so much to talk about this. And a part of this is you guys have done an awesome job of laying groundwork for some of that and understanding like New Testament prophecy, versus Old Testament prophecy, and what we're doing when we're stepping into this. And now we are in this age of the Holy Spirit. And so these are things we can expect. But part of it is if we don't step out and risk, if we don't put ourselves in these places, I know this this challenges me greatly, is I'm not gonna see God move in these ways. Right. I can say and have said, oh, oh, I want to see God move in this, I want to grow in prophecy or I want to see this happen, but I do nothing about it. And I don't create this space to grow in it, and I don't step out and risk. Oh, I want to see these stories with strangers, but the Lord's telling me to say this thing or pray for this person's healing, and I'm just unwilling to do it. And so that's part of the deal is creating trying to create a culture within a church community where where there where there is actual um like encouragement to pursue those things because we know we're together in it. We know we're pursuing it together in that. And and sharing stories is just like so essential to that. We try to share stories, even and I'd hope we share some stories of like, hey, this is what God did this week, this is how he spoke, and or whatever it is. And so we're trying to share stories along those lines because people need that faith and encouragement of like, okay, God's still doing this. Yeah, he he might want to speak through me or he might want to speak to me and to kind of build that level of expectation. And I, you know, I feel like we have and myself included so much room to grow. But that is kind of what we're trying to accomplish with the Night of Hope, where that is a space where that is that culture is growing in that direction.

SPEAKER_09 1:01:39

Yeah, one one little thing I would just kind of slide into that is when yep, this is me sliding it in. Slide it, yeah. It's been slid in.

SPEAKER_08 1:01:48

This is this is you being kicked out of the church. Yeah. Over a cliff. Moved on.

SPEAKER_09 1:01:55

We've moved on. I feel like when you want to build this kind of ministry where you create the space to hear from the Holy Spirit, to uh to practice these gifts, uh you are going to attract people who are hungry, who are spiritual, and who often are willing to push social boundaries or are unaware of certain social boundaries that a lot of us really rely on to feel comfortable, they will enjoy that they actually have a place to be free and and do what they believe the Lord is doing or say what they believe the Lord is saying. And it's like a necessary cost, it's it's part of the I'm willing to pay the cost of I'm gonna have people near me and I'm gonna have to trust people that socially may be kind of like a little weird, you know, and it's like it's worth it to hear from the Lord because yeah, the the the thing that makes the Lord speak to people is that they want to hear him. Yeah, it's not that they are socially normal, yeah. Or even I really honestly read your Bible and just look at all the people that the Lord spoke through and the things they were willing to do, the places they were willing to go, the way they lived. Not normal. Yeah, yeah, not normal people.

SPEAKER_08 1:03:36

That's why the Lord speaks to you a lot. Yeah. Burn! Sick burns in Syria. Thanks. Hey, it's been done. Oh that's a great point. I'm so sorry for but I had to do that.

SPEAKER_09 1:03:50

Thank you for calling my point great.

SPEAKER_08 1:03:51

Yeah, it was great.

SPEAKER_09 1:03:52

Uh, I'm weird and I need a lot of information.

SPEAKER_08 1:03:54

Yeah, no, I see that.

SPEAKER_09 1:03:55

Yeah, no, yeah, it's I I just say that because the part of the the discomfort is not just, oh, I am going to have to get over my social uneasiness to say something. It's also getting over the social uneasiness of people who are willing to say, yeah, I believe the Lord's saying, and that often those are people who can make us socially uncomfortable. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:04:25

You know, but yeah, hey, that's a it's a huge obstacle because we want to be respectable, we want to be thought well of. Yeah. And I don't know if you've you guys have found this. The Holy Spirit tends to do things weirder than I would want him to do it. Yeah. And uh I think that's probably intentional. Yes. Um, because so much of the the barrier really is our pride. I mean, that's what it comes down to. And it is so helpful that some of the people that are that would see so so much more of this are the socially awkward people we wouldn't necessarily want to be seen as. Yeah. And yet I think if we're hungry, that's the direction the Lord will be. And again, not to be weird to be weird. There's plenty of that. You all have talked about, I'm sure you've talked about all of that. It's not about that. It's that we it goes back to the control thing. It goes back to if we're gonna sit and wait on the Holy Spirit and and we're gonna do this in the in the right way with the right heart, um, but we want him to do it in the way that we think he should do it. And we want him to do it in a way that we feel like is normal in our context. Yeah, read your Bible.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:32

Right. Yeah. The funny thing is the people that we're usually most worried about concerning that, like in our congregation, God will do something like that story about the guy you told me, like who came. It's like, okay, this guy won't come back. Yeah. No, he's coming back because of what happened. And we've experienced, we do a time kind of like Night of Hope, but very brief after our service, at the end of our service, where we get in groups and we pray and we listen to the Lord, we do that. And um, we have people from The community. And at first it was kind of weird for them. Yeah. They would usually leave for that part. And now they're like staying and they actually are really being blessed by that part of it. And so you just gotta like make it normal, like you said.

SPEAKER_09 1:06:15

Yeah, just gotta keep going.

SPEAKER_08 1:06:16

Well, I'm telling you, pe people that are coming in even into our church, and it it's you know, the the context is probably very different from y'all's community, actually. But people are stepping in from all different backgrounds and like them encountering God speaking to them in the presence. And we do we preach from the scriptures, we sing normal worship songs, but even in a Sunday service, you know, we have response time afterwards, um, and people are hearing from the Lord and they're coming from different backgrounds. One girl that's getting baptized and I believe is just wicken tarot cards, that was her background, and now she is just in love with Jesus and like that God met her in that way. Um, and I think she's come to a nine of hope, but but it's that recognition that there's gonna be more and more people that are open to that. And like that is on one end a very dangerous thing, and people are are suffering because of their openness to the spiritual world. On the other end, what if we we had those spaces? What if we have nine of hope spaces and where this this seems weird and we want to be relevant? It's a whole thing where hopefully we come out of as a Christian that we're like the number one thing we can do is be relevant to a culture. No, they need something way more than what they are. Something better than the better, and something better than what they're experiencing um with witchcraft or with their tarot cards or with their psychic, which there's no power there. Like you know, the kingdom of God's not a matter of talk, like it's a matter of power, and and we have to pursue that, and especially I think even more so now and the season that we're coming through in America.

SPEAKER_09 1:07:48

We can't forget that the the church in Ephesus that Paul wrote his letter Ephesians to, that the way that church started was that the gospel came in and was believed, and that when they believed their act of repentance was to pile up their books of magic arts and burn them in the middle of the city, and that was the church plant. Yeah, that's how they planted the church. So that group was a great church plant. Oh, dude, what a wild beginning.

SPEAKER_08 1:08:20

That's like fantastic.

SPEAKER_09 1:08:21

They they went from the they were delivered from the power of darkness into the power of Jesus. And that we we can't be scared of people who are delivered from darkness. We all were delivered from darkness, but some people have really agreed with darkness in an overt way, and they're very spiritual people, and they're just misguided and deceived. And when Jesus finds them and saves them and redeems them, we need to count them as truly saved, yeah, and not dangerous. Yeah, they just need discipling. Yes, but they may end up becoming the most powerfully spiritual people incredibly gifted, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:09:00

Yeah, no, 100%. There's you know, a huge even one of the gifts that Paul talks about is the gift of discerning between spirits. Like there's people that are in our church now that are leadership that came out of the occult and very sensitive discerning of spirit. Sure. I mean that's extremely helpful to our church. Like it just really is. And it has to, you know, there there needs to be done within community, just like prophecy, plenty of ways that that stuff can go wrong. But when within the context of a community, um, it's a part of the body that God wanted to put in place. And it's like a lot of people that are coming out of that is because they they have some sensitivity and then they're brought into the kingdom, they're kind of the kingdom of the beloved son, and now like that that stuff gets turned against the enemy to tear down what the enemy is doing and to build up his church. Right. And that's like that's what God is after. Like, but we have to be ready for that. We prepare for that, we have to understand that.

SPEAKER_09 1:09:53

We can't be too cool for that.

SPEAKER_08 1:09:54

No, we can't be too cool. And we also need to like there are people that are hurting in the in the world, and they're they're now turning to these things like that that Eastern meditation or psychedelics. Yeah. They are one guy came out of church and he's like really struck because he opened, he didn't believe any of that stuff, and then he started telling me what happened to him, and he's like, No, I believe all of it, I know it's bad, and I need help, like that's that sort of thing. Yeah, um, and that just has to be a little bit more normalized. And it's again, it's weirder than we would want a lot in a lot of of our contexts. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:26

Well, and the churches that are married to relevance and risk aversion um are dying because like people are spiritual and they they need they need God, you know? And that's they need teaching, they need teaching, but they need more than teaching. Yeah, they need they they also need experience, is not a bad word. Emotion is not a bad word. Right. Amen. Like those are valuable things to God too. They're not the the word is authoritative, and I I think for our audience, Jake, if you could say for everyone, uh just to clarify and make sure our anchors are. I need to look at it at a camera. You look at camera and talk about recite the apostles' creed. Tell us the anchorship in the word that like we are anchored all these things to the Bible. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:11:16

Yeah. The the and and it's so funny because you just you need realize people know the background of our church. Like it's just a funny thing to say, like very anchored in the authority of scripture. We look at it to we look to scripture as our authority and want to follow um what the Bible says, and that would inform where we go, which which the point of that is that's why we've gone in the directions we've exactly. And so the the original pastor of hope, he did a great job. He would is still stuck with me, would preach through like a series called Normal Christianity, and would just take normal from the context of the New Testament and lay it against our normal. And the point is we're anchored in scripture. We're not after experience, we're not after spiritualism, we're not after all of these things for themselves. We're after seeing the kingdom of God break into our midst, into our context. And all of that you find in the scripture. And we wouldn't be stepping into any of it if it wasn't in the Bible. Right. But that's why I find the disconnect of like somehow it's more um, it's more faithful to scripture to avoid these things and step away from risk. It doesn't add up to me when I look at the Bible. Um, and so that's that's for us is like, yeah, we in in we we are um the the the context of the people that are in our church need to know that we are anchored in scripture or they wouldn't be there. Right. And I wouldn't be there either. Yeah. Um and uh and so that just informs our direction. So we just want to live it out.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:44

That's great. Very good. So let's say you were to talk to a pastor or a member of a church, somebody who's like, man, I would love to see that at my church. Like I I we want more of that. I want more of that. How do I what do I start with? Like, what are a few things you just tell them, like, hey, this is this is where you can start with encouragement.

SPEAKER_08 1:13:07

Um great question. Um, I would I would first start with like my own heart and evaluate as a leader um in the church the the spaces that I have set up for my people um to get built up and encouraged. Um uh am I holding on to control in those places? Is that maybe an idol? Is that something I'm fearful of? Um and just be honest with God. Hey God, I'm afraid to let go of control in these because I'm afraid what will happen. I'm afraid somebody's gonna do something. I'm afraid that people will leave. Um I would start there first, just you and the Lord of being honest of what's happening and and just tell them that's this is what I'm afraid of. Because the other thing I want to communicate, it doesn't mean the Holy Spirit's not involved in our preaching and our worship. Like we should, when we're preparing a sermon, we're doing this, we're seeking the Lord. What do you want to say? Like, here's the here's the scripture I'm be preaching through, but what are you speaking? What are you saying? Um, so the Holy Spirit should be involved in all that. It's not like these Night of Hope spaces are the only Holy Spirit space spaces. I want to make sure we're we're clear that that's not the case. But we do want to first evaluate as the leader what am I afraid of to create those spaces. Because then the next step isn't, hey, do exactly what we do in Night of Hope. It's create a space, however small, where you do have a framing, where you do have scripture. We start every night of hope going through scripture and laying the groundwork, showing why this is biblical, grounding it in scripture to y'all's point. Um, and then we create space where it is unpotentially uncomfortable, where we don't have control over what happens, and where people will have to step out and risk. Um and that can be very small. That can be in a group of five or ten people where we're, hey, we're just gonna sit and listen to the Lord and we're gonna share some things. We're all on the same page here. I'm gonna share. If this is new, like if this is really fresh for people, I'm gonna share what I feel like the Lord is is giving me. And I'm I'm gonna do that. And I know you're on the same page that we're gonna test everything, and if it feels weird, it's okay. Yeah. Um it it it it really you can get creative. It's gotta be within your own context, but you have to have a space where you're giving up some of that control and you're uh allowing space for the Holy Spirit to do what he wants to do, and you're okay with whatever that looks like. Yeah. So that's probably another thing you have to be like, God, I'm afraid of what you'll do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:15:32

And say that. Be honest, be humble. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:37

I love that. So how often do you guys do Night of Oak? It's about quarterly now. Quarterly. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_09 1:15:43

Do you wish it was more? Yeah. How if you could just if you could have your way.

SPEAKER_08 1:15:50

You know, I think if I I could have my way, um uh you know, practically right now, maybe once every two months, but but I think that more of the answer is that we're more integrated into these other spaces that we already have going. Like we like everybody in our church is is in a uh almost 100% of the of the people in our church are in a weekly group. Um, and then we have monthly groups that just meet at home, share a meal, do communion together. Um, and so we want those spaces to kind of that become more of a thing where it's not like this official Holy Spirit space. So that's probably more of what I'm interested in. Right.

SPEAKER_09 1:16:30

Not so much having more night of hope, but having more integration. Or night of hope. More night of hope in the groups.

SPEAKER_08 1:16:37

Remember the birds. Yeah, the birdhouse, but the birds. What we need is more bird analogies in our community. Let them loose.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:47

I hear hearing the cult thing going, everyone must have a birdhouse, a bird feeder, and attract birds to your living room.

SPEAKER_08 1:16:56

Yeah, you need it inside, indoors. Yeah. It feels weird, but it's normal when you think about it. Now, does it have to be a blue jet? Yes, it absolutely does.

SPEAKER_09 1:17:06

Um, the other people and if there's a crow in your house, oh maybe been cursed. I need to call the elders and the anointing oil. Um if you can catch that bird, eat it with some anointing oil. I've got oil stains all over my wall.

SPEAKER_07 1:17:20

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, I have the elders with me. Yeah. The crowd came in the house. Yeah. Maybe that's why they do holy water instead of holy oil. That's a good point. That's a lot, that's a lot messier. Not as much as a lot of that.

unknown 1:17:32

You should have thought of that.

SPEAKER_08 1:17:34

Uh your wife's at home repainting right now. Yeah, she is repainting Holly. Um, we also do want to, we do think about like, hey, how can we bring some more of this into Sunday? We do some that, you know, person, but like that's another thing that we think about. Like, what is this? You know, this this isn't, we don't want to, you know, one, we don't want to assume the way we do Sundays is the way we should do church, but also we don't want to turn everything on its head just because it's like, oh, this the Bible doesn't you know, so we just like do everything different. Yeah. Um, it's like, you know, are you are we facilitating spaces where people can experience, to your point, actually experience God, experience his presence, hear his voice, hear his voice from other people, um, receive prayer that um that impacts them where they're leaving, not just with more information than they're where they're leaving where they feel like they met with God.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:22

Yeah. But it's good to have a space for teaching too, because teaching is also a gift. So it's like Sunday, hey, if we do a lot of teaching, that's good too, because we do need to have a lot of teaching. That's not a bad thing.

SPEAKER_08 1:18:31

It's funny because I'm saying these things in the context of like that's most of what we do. Like we do do the teaching, like that's the majority of the space that we have on. So the teaching is happening. It's like, it's almost like like I I feel like for most of the American evangelical church world, wherever you are on the spectrum of charismatic, wherever, we're good at the teaching. Like we don't have to be encouraged, you need to do more teaching for the most there's there's places, I understand. Sure. Um, y'all probably have more insight than that. But in my context, maybe that's more helpful, just speak of that of like that's that's happening and should continue to happen. The teaching is needed, teaching from scripture, where we're grounding ourselves in the truth of God's word. So honestly, that we're grounded in the truth of God's word when we hear from the Holy Spirit or there's a prophecy, we know we're we're grounded in God's word. So if there's a disconnect, you can discern it. All we had was prophecy, and we're not grounded in scripture, we're not, we're not living with that discernment that you have. Um, so that has to be primary. Like having the word be taught, having it in our hearts, being memorized, all of these things are crucial to actually being able to hear the Lord and prophecy for one for someone else or to receive it yourself.

SPEAKER_09 1:19:40

Right. So that when a word is given a prophetic word, you can go, does that sound like God?

SPEAKER_08 1:19:46

And that's where a lot of the discipleship needs to happen for people coming in from a more the more spiritual atmosphere is they may be used to Holy Spirit speaking or that, but they but they're not grounded in scripture. So you need to walk with them on these things. Where some of the things you might think, oh, obviously they're gonna know that that's that's not good. Like no, they don't know. They need to be in community walking with other believers that are more mature than them, that are down the road from them. So again, if you divorce this from community, you're in trouble. Right. Good word.

SPEAKER_07 1:20:18

So um people can find out more about Night of Hope and stuff at um what's the website? The church website? Yeah, hopehtx.church. Hopehtx.church. We'll have that in the comment section so you can check it out. And um also two or more hosts overnights, um, where we do prayer and all these things and and try to operate in these things with people and um do it in a way that blesses everyone across churches. And so um just you can check out two or more also in the comments, and um, yeah, that's it. So thanks, man. Thanks for coming on. Thanks, guys. Thanks for having me. Could you end with uh like a good neighbor? I won't do that. Okay, yeah. Well, actually, I could do that, but you have to pay me.

SPEAKER_08 1:21:00

I charge royalty. It's it's a pretty hefty, yeah. It's pretty hefty fee. Um I'm happy to do it. We'll just we'll just maybe renegotiate a little bit and cut it back in. Uh don't do it. You can't make me uh you can't make me. Oh man, it's all good. Thanks for coming back. Maybe if I did that, it would come out. You sound so disappointed. Yeah, I know it's not even looking at me.

SPEAKER_09 1:21:21

You're like, it's gonna, it's gonna say if I do the jingle, it's not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_07 1:21:24

We won't do it. I'll do it. Uh awesome. Well, thanks for tuning in. I was discipled up in a wonderful church that was very Bible-centric, which just means, you know, they love the Bible, love studying the Bible. And there was a great emphasis on evangelism, but we didn't have much emphasis on corporate prayer. And so I I just didn't really understand how to approach God.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:48

A lot of people are in the same boat that I'm in, where we value prayer, we know it's important, we value gifts of the Spirit, but we just don't know how.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:01

I can recall when we had uh just two minutes of silence at our church just to stop everything and focus on God and how unsettling that was just to be still for two minutes.

SPEAKER_09 1:22:17

Prayer is like this suitcase that's filled with a lot of things. These things can be daunting, hard to measure, hard to control. It can feel less like a suitcase and more like Pandora's box for a lot of churches, you know. Like what if we really press in here, what's gonna happen?

SPEAKER_06 1:22:35

What kind of church are we gonna become? I mean, God's throne of grace is not just this simple thing that we just go into like a like a store. I mean, we are talking about a holy, majestic, wonderful God, but he welcomes his children with open arms.

SPEAKER_07 1:22:53

One day in Africa I was praying, and I felt like the Lord was encouraging me that I would be part of a prayer movement among Bible-centric churches like the one I came out of. The Lord brought that word back to me with Matthew 18, 20, where two or three are gathered in my name, there I'm among them. Two or more can actually come alongside and help give people a framework for prayer that's biblical, a framework for relationship with God that is biblical, and just help people go, hey, let's actually make space for the Spirit of God to do things he did in the Bible.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:24

When you're praying with two or more, there's an agreement there with God's word and with God Himself, and there's power in that.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:32

First of all, he tells us we need to pray. It's all him, and that is a double blessing, a double glory to God. Unless God truly does move, nothing will happen. You know, Jesus says, apart from me, you can do nothing. That is very true, you know.

SPEAKER_09 1:23:46

Whether a church is already a praying church or struggling to become a praying church, and I don't mean there's a prayer meeting every so often, but there's a culture of prayer, of dependence on the Lord, of expectancy. Two or more is just so helpful, so practical. Just through the leadership of the scriptures, really bringing what the scriptures say all together with faith and with obedience to just kind of break through a bit and get us into a different place where we really know we're sitting at the feet of Jesus and He's listening closely and He's speaking.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:23

It is a good tool for encouraging the practice of prayer among the members of your church, giving them an outlet, giving them a tool to reach out and connect with other believers on a regular basis to pray together.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:36

Group of the men that pray together come from multiple different churches when you really begin to pray. Full heartfelt prayers. I think there's just a fellowship of the Holy Spirit that happens in that place that really brings a unity.

SPEAKER_07 1:25:00

So we have a number of ways to get involved. If it's like, hey, you're in a Bible-centric church, you hear this, and you're like, oh, we need that. We need more prayer in our church, I want to try this. Get connected with me and we'd love to start a prayer meeting at your church.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:12

Is there anything more valuable that your congregation could be doing than praying? You know, if we've got if we've got time for Sunday school, and if we have time for youth group, and if we have time for all the other ancillary activities that take place in a local congregation, we ought to have time, a dedicated time for prayer.

SPEAKER_09 1:25:34

The God who created everything listens to us. Jesus died for us so that we could be cleansed and made righteous, and we could approach the throne of grace with confidence to find mercy in our time of need. He wants to partner with us. And do we want to partner with him? Is the question.