The Prayer Culture Podcast

An Odyssey of ARUGING FAITH

• Michael Green • Season 4 • Episode 7

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Apologetics, what does this word mean? Can I win people to God's love through apologetics, or is it to heavy handed?

Today we talk to the Odyssey Apologetics guys about these vary topics.

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SPEAKER_02

Like that, it's simply that to me, it's like, well, no, as a believer, if I really believe in the God of the Bible, the thing is, he is the I am. Like we're just talking about being in touch with reality itself.

SPEAKER_10

This is the Prayer Culture Podcast.

SPEAKER_09

I was gonna say, like, we don't just do apologetics. Um, I would actually say you're more the apologist than I am.

SPEAKER_12

Yeah, I mean that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_09

Although I read three apologetic books. Yeah, that I was gonna say that's how it's turned out.

SPEAKER_12

I don't know that it's true in terms of you ready? Yep, sweet.

SPEAKER_10

Okay, stop here to kick me out.

SPEAKER_12

I never miss this part.

SPEAKER_02

It's like uh Michael No, no, kick me out. That's the that's the part that's the part.

SPEAKER_12

So we can that when he leaves, we can talk bad about him.

SPEAKER_10

Yeah, exactly. Find one that actually will add some some uh entertainment value to the podcast.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. All right, go ahead and uh close the door so we can start talking about it this is fun. Okay. Now that he's out of here. Now that he's out of here. Nah, dude, Michael's great uh if he watches his back. I want him to know that he is actually a huge part of my life, especially now. And uh honestly, I wouldn't be here if not for him. I know he talks about all the great things I do for the podcast, but honestly, this was a huge opportunity that he brought to me. So anyway, now we're here with the Odyssey guys.

SPEAKER_09

Yes, we are.

SPEAKER_02

Welcome everybody. This is the Prayer Culture Podcast. I feel like that was really abrupt. You guys are having a really neat discussion before we were talking. I was recording some of it already because we like to record stuff beforehand, just because uh I think it's funny personally as the editor. But um, why don't you guys tell me your guys' name and a little bit about what your organization is and what y'all do?

SPEAKER_09

Yeah. Uh so I'm Mason and I'm the president of are we called Odyssey Ministries on paper? Odyssey Ministries. We just call ourselves Odyssey. What's a street name? Yeah, yeah. Odysseus is our is our street name. Um and it's it's designed at, I would put it this way uh our theme verse is in John 17 where Jesus says, and this is eternal life knowing you and knowing your son whom you sent. So I think that people often sleep on the fact that we're told what eternal life is, and it's about knowing God. And so we want to be a purveyor, if you will, of that eternal life in the sense of upholding and showing the world who Jesus is, specifically by teaching people about him. Uh, so we're focused on studying theology, studying apologetics, and how that impacts our lives. So I would say our three main things is learning theology, uh, knowing how to defend our faith, and specifically then how to apply that.

SPEAKER_02

Wow, that's so amazing. Anytime anyone brings up John 17, I always get excited. That's one of my favorite passages in scripture. I feel like there's so much in that prayer that Jesus says that a lot of things kind of go back to because you're right, it's like that is what eternal life is, is knowing God. It's like it's through knowing God that we're then even able to follow the two greatest commandments, loving God, and then in turn loving others. So, like, yeah, that that's that's amazing.

SPEAKER_12

Um, I'm Sean. Um, I'm the vice president of Odyssey. The VP. The uh the reason he was asking me what we're on paper is because I was the one that wrote out a lot of the document. I don't know what's going on.

SPEAKER_02

See, that's what happens. The vice president does a lot of work, and president's kind of the face where you're like, hey man, hey hair, I'm here. That's exactly what it is. I'd rather have his face too than that's great. Well, so you guys do a lot with apologetics. So I guess one of the first questions that I wanted to ask you for people that may not be fully aware, even if they might know a little bit, what really is apologetics? And this might be like an hour-long answer, but try to do it in like five minutes.

SPEAKER_12

Okay. You want to go first? Yeah, I mean, I I brought this just so I can open it to 1 Peter 3.

SPEAKER_02

A. Um that's that's preparation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_12

The uh, you know, if I can if I can get there. Okay. So when we talk about the word apologetics, we generally refer to 1 Peter 3.15 as kind of the proof text for what apologetics is. And honestly, it should be read in context if we want to understand the fullness of what an apologetic is. But just to give the verse that most people associate with it. I guess we should I we'll start in 3.15, even though it's half a sentence. Yeah. But in your hearts, honor Christ the Lord as holy, or LSB, I think, says uh separate or sanctify. Sanctify. Sanctify Christ as Lord. Uh always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason or an account for the hope that is within you, yet do it with gentleness and respect. So fundamentally, uh that word for defense is uh the word apologia, which uh my Greek teacher would be cringing. I'm cringing at how you pronounce it. Um but also you know, there's an apologia church that we that we really like. Apologia.

SPEAKER_02

Everybody said apologia. Well, I'll have to do is in the actual podcast, I'll have to do like one of those robot voices that actually pronounces pauses on my face.

SPEAKER_12

I'll I'll be the robot voice.

SPEAKER_02

Apologia.

SPEAKER_12

Apologia.

SPEAKER_02

Now that's great. Now, if the robot voice is something different than that, then you're both embarrassed, and then that'd be even better.

SPEAKER_12

Is the stress on the iota? Yeah. Okay. I thought so. I I haven't seen it in Greek. So I haven't seen it in Greek in a long time. But uh that that word means defense, um, or among other things, but it means in in this case it's translated as defense. And so when we're talking about an apologetic, we're talking about being able to have a reason for the hope that lies within us. Um one of the things I think is kind of a common misconception of an apologetic is that it's just responding to arguments against Christianity. Um, and I would say that an apologetic is a lot more proactive than that. I've heard people say, I don't remember who who I heard say it, maybe like John Milbank or something, that said that the best apologetic that you can live is a Christian life. That that in a sense, living a Christian life, especially if you look in context of what 1 Peter 3 is all about, you know, living as a Christian in all facets of life, uh up into, you know, I think it's around 312 where it turns into, you know, you're gonna be persecuted, and in the persecution, be ready to have a defense. Right. So it's not just apologetics, it's not just being able to respond to arguments against Christianity, but also being able to I I would throw evangelism into it. I know we're gonna talk about that a little bit later. Sure. But I would throw, you know, being able to not just respond to the negative uh comments, as it were, on Christianity, but also being able to positively exposit what Christianity is.

SPEAKER_09

And and I would add, um one of the misconceptions about apologetics is that oftentimes we view it as though God is on trial and the unbeliever is the judge. And in nowhere in scripture do we find that. Rather, I think while the term defense apologia is used, I don't think that that means that we have to view it as God is on trial. I've often heard amongst really good apologists that a best defense is a good offense. Yeah. So 2 Corinthians uh 10 5 says, as we tear down speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God and take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. So it's demonstrating to the unbeliever, whether that is an atheist, a Hindu, a Buddhist, an agnostic, or whatever, because an unbeliever is an unbeliever according to the word of God, and demonstrating that you live in God's world and he's not the one on trial, you're the one on trial. And I actually think that that's how we play into evangelism. Because if we look at Romans, Romans 1, 2, and 3, the point is to demonstrate how the belief how the unbeliever stands condemned before we can go and give the gospel presentation of hope in Jesus. And I think that the goal of apologetics is to shut the mouth of the unbeliever by uh demonstrating how not just they stand condemned, but that their worldview stands condemned along with them.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I think that there's like the one of the things that even you said was, you know, sometimes even the best apologetic is just living the Christian life. I was trying to find the verse that I'm thinking of because I'm blanket on the exact location. But essentially there's so many examples, even in scripture, where either Paul or Jesus or somebody's saying, oh, hey, church, you guys need to behave in this way. You guys need to conduct yourselves amongst each other in this way so that the world can know that you have been sent, that you are the ones that are, you know, um the ones that are actually following Christ and following um God the Father. And so it's it is kind of interesting how even something as simple as just not even getting into arguments, but just displaying yourself as a representative of Christ can say so much to someone who isn't a believer. Um, and then yeah, for sure, like I think that that's like one of those things, and I guess we're kind of answering what my second question was going to be, which is like what makes apologetics so important in general? Where it's kind of like you're right, if if people can understand the need, because sometimes that's a lot of the problem too, is understanding the need for Christ. Um, and um after they understand that, then they can then have a much like more fluid path to okay, this is how we can then bring you actually to Christ. And and I think there's a lot that goes into it that I feel like we're gonna get into at some point too. But um, as but before we even get to that, not just how apologetics is important when it comes to engaging believers, uh non-believers, but uh Freudian slip. The next question is what how is it important amongst believers like in the church today? Like, what are some ways that you might see whether apologetics is kind of lacking? I know that like one thing I can think of is like just biblical literacy in general. Um, but how do you think that apologetics can serve itself within the church? Well, everyone should learn Greek. No, I'm just kidding. Um we've been apologi apologia. Apologia.

SPEAKER_12

Every time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, even in Latin, when I took Latin, we would have this discussion all the time where it's like, how do you you which version of the the pronunciation are you gonna use? Yeah. Um yeah, to your point, biblical literacy is really important. But uh and one of the things I would say about apologetics in the church, like there's there's kind of multiple ways to approach that topic. Um one of which is how do we train people in the church to have an apologetic and how important is that? Uh and and to that I would say is of primary importance, especially when when you look at let me give an example from my own life. I was at a uh retreat called Trastias. I don't know if you've heard of it there, but they they just a bunch of people get together for three days and uh a group of volunteers just loves on a group of people for three days. That's literally what it is. Oh, cool. And um when I was there, there was this young man who was talking about uh biblical criticism, like historical criticism, and talking about some of the you know synoptic problems in the gospels and just talking about different things that are at the very least apparent contradictions in the scriptures. And he was asking these questions as if there was no answer to them. And in fact, he said when when it was actually my dad was there as well, my dad was the one talking to him, and um he said he'd never heard answers like that, he didn't even know there were answers for those those questions in the church. And so, you know, I I again I I know I'm kind of stepping on questions that you're gonna ask.

SPEAKER_02

No, this is great. This helps with the flow of the podcast because the more questions you answer, then I can just transition to then to that question and finish up.

SPEAKER_12

Yeah, this is actually great. Yeah, because well, so I was gonna say is like when we're talking about training people in apologetics and we're talking about, you know, how does one have an apologetic in the church, it's not so important for ever for someone to know every single argument that they're gonna come up. In fact, it's impossible to know every single argument that you're gonna come up against. But what I think is the most important thing is to understand that there are answers to the questions that even if you don't know the answer, knowing that the answers exist, and I would add to that, knowing where to find them, I and I would say like Mason and I kind of serve that role a little bit where you know someone might not have all the answers against you know some of our theology or some of our uh Christian beliefs, but I would hope that the people at Odyssey know that even if they don't know the answer, they can come to Mason and I and we can direct them or or we know people that can direct them to have those answers. Yeah. So I I would say in terms of like apologetics in the church, uh the the worst response that I see happen a lot is people just punt on it. Um and and I there was um I remember when I when I was much younger, the reason that that I got into apologetics that was all my dad, I have a great family. My dad was the one that kind of trained me to think apologetically, and it was because there were um either Mormons or Jehovah's Witness came up to our door. I think it was Mormons because it was it was two of them, and they came up to the door, rung the doorbell, dad had a conversation. I was like nine, so like I don't remember the conversation. Yeah, but I remember he asked them a question and they said, Well, I don't know, that's why we have faith. Oh and and my dad, my dad was like, My children are never going to answer an apologetics question that way. Um, so so I I think if we take the stance that, like, oh, well, we don't have to have an answer for these hard questions because we just have faith that God is going to, you know, smooth over all the rough patches of our theology. I don't think that that's helpful. And I think that that leads to you know things like uh people who deconstruct, right? Yeah. And things like that. You see a lot of deconstruction in the church come out of people unable to answer a lot of these questions.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, because what kind of happens is sort of a God of the gaps kind of thing where it's like, oh hey, I don't have an answer for that, but you know, that's fine because you know especially the new atheist movement like your Richard Dawkins and your Christopher Hitchens are going to just absolutely bludgeon you on those.

SPEAKER_09

I I think it's important to understand that when First Peter says like always being ready to give a defense means or presupposes that you already have a defense within yourself. So I Jesus is the truth, uh, God is the truth. And we have often adopted a secular and relativistic mindset that says that, well, it's true for me, even if it's not explicit. I think sometimes in the church it's implicit, especially if you're not being taught apologetics, because you know the the Christian faith is offensive. You know, it's like it's saying all other worldviews are absolutely incorrect, not just incorrect, even further. Scripture calls it a lie. Yeah. Okay, so there's the truth and there's a lie, and there's only one truth and the rest are lies. And I and I think that sometimes um as we get into more like soft evangelical churches, it they can somewhat adopt an implicit, well, it's true for us, and as you said, that's why we have faith. When that that is not the way that scripture teaches of faith, Paul's constantly reasoning with people, people are constantly defending uh Christianity, Christ is constantly defending why he's the way, the truth, and the life. There, there's there's no there's no place in scripture that demonstrates, well, it's true for us. And I think that it's unloving for us to say it's true and not show why it's true. So I would say that as it relates to apologetics in the church, the first thing that I think a good church needs to be doing is bring enough reason and defense that a believer can convince them their own heart. Yeah. So, like, so like obviously the first uh atheist we have to defend against is our is the atheist within us, uh, the unbeliever that still resides in us in the flesh. And so I think that it's important for us to be able to know how to answer our own personal questions and then after that see who's in our immediate vicinity and equip people to be able to respond to the types of people we interact with on a frequent, frequent basis.

SPEAKER_02

I like that process because it really is kind of like a wanting to make sure that you're prepared by, you know, and I think really I think this comes to a um a bigger reality, you know, even within the the Great Commission itself, which is if we're gonna go out and um and evangelize and and go and make disciples, well, we need to make sure that we've actually been discipled, that we've actually trained up, you know, um, that we're ready for that. I think one of the illustrations that um that Paul uses that I go back to is when he talks about, oh, you guys are still drinking milk and not actual like full food. You know, it's kind of like there are kind of stages where as a believer, it's like, hey, you got to get these basic concepts down, but then you have to be able to mature to a point to where you can actually be then effective as a disciple maker because you're prepared, you're ready, you can chew on the harder stuff, you know? And um, and so I guess to even shift gears a little bit, um, so now that we've kind of been talking about what apologetics is, like the importance of it and things like that, I guess when it comes to how you guys have engaged with people with I guess we can start with just non-believers. What has been the biggest challenge when coming to um like I guess engaging with, like, say, non-believers?

SPEAKER_09

I I would say that I can come up with three main challenges. Yeah. There's a logical problem, there's a personal problem, and there's a pastoral problem. So the logical problem I would say is that you know, scripture speaks of unbelievers as being fools. That's not meant to be an insult as much as it as it is that it's a description. Yeah. And one of the things that is foolish about an unbelieving worldview is that they don't seem to understand that they're borrowing from the Christian worldview. Yeah. Let's let's take so the most obvious ones, morals, right? So it's like in in a the proper term would be atomistic materialism, but more if we wanted to just broad brush it and call it atheism. So the the belief that all there is is matter. Yeah. Okay, you don't live that way. Uh, and the the perfect example of that is therefore morality is not an objective reality for you. Yeah. Um, but I would say even more specifically, and I think this is the kicker, uh, the laws of logic can't be real because you can't see, taste, touch, or weigh the laws of logic. And you're trying to use the laws of logic to tell me Christianity isn't true. Yeah. Uh so there's not there's not room for it. And it can be difficult for you to get the unbeliever there to show them like you, you can't, you're, you're talking like a Christian to try and tell me that Christianity isn't true. That's a logical problem. But a personal problem that I've seen and interacted with is obstinacy. And and I think that the reason for it is because I mean, scripture says that in 1 Corinthians 1.18, that the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. Okay. And it and it is foolishness. I mean, God becomes a baby. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Uh God is three and one. How does that work? I mean, there there are plenty of things that uh it's not that there's not a logical answer for it or a rational answer for it, but it is uh silly on its face to somebody who has not been in that environment or just wants to outright reject it. And so I think that there tends to be, and this is not always the case, but there tends to be a lot of obstinacy to speak of a miraculous world and a personal God, and Jesus Christ is the only way, truth, and life. Um, and their picture of him often just is Jesus of Nazareth, the good teacher. Um, and and us kind of assuming that they know more than I think that they think they know. Yeah. Um, not trying to throw punches at all, but and then a per and then a pastoral issue, which is, and I think that this is more the issue for the apologist, but it's very easy in apologetics to make this mental jousting rather than loving your neighbor.

SPEAKER_08

Okay.

SPEAKER_09

So, like my my goal and the goal that we have tried to teach our students is do not try to go and engage in someone with apologetics if all you're trying to do is win an argument. Because that's not the mind of Christ. That's not the heart of Christ. Like, we're doing this to love somebody to help them. Yeah. And and that is something that I constantly have to guard against for myself.

SPEAKER_12

Me too. Like the the uh understanding that an apologetic is given to another person. You know, like there's an ad there's this has been you know a journey as we've kind of grown in our understanding of like you're you're very we both are very clearly coming from a presuppositional uh position. Right. Like the the way you're talking is very Bonson.

SPEAKER_09

Do you mind discuss that in a second?

SPEAKER_12

Uh yeah, I mean we can't. Oh yeah, presuppositionalism. Oh, yeah. I actually think like the presuppositional point of view is is really useful in terms of approaching apologetics, because uh one of the the tenets of like a classical apologetics. Yeah, and again, I I do want to stress that even as even though we are presuppositional, that doesn't mean you can't use classical apologetics in certain cases. Like there is a have there is a yeah, there is a formal approach that you can absolutely use from classical apologetics, even in a presuppositional approach. Sure.

SPEAKER_02

So so for so for the audience that might have no really quick one sentence description of what presuppositionalism is.

SPEAKER_12

What he was talking about before is presuppositional apologetics. Um, but but if I were gonna put it in like a sentence and I'm really bad at this, you can ask him. Like I'm always I'm always using terms that I just assume everyone knows.

SPEAKER_09

Um revelational epistemology.

SPEAKER_12

Yeah. So I I would say at at the uh at at its core, the the main tenet of presuppositional apologetics, like if I'm talking about not how does Bonson define it or frame or any of the presuppositionalists, but just in terms of my own approach to it, I would say it's uh not giving ground to the to the opponent and on what they believe. So, like, for example, there is in and the have you heard of the concept of the myth of neutrality? It's a very common Bonson term. Right. I would say that that is fundamentally where presuppositionalism comes out.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, from my understanding, it seems that what presuppositionalism is, is that God is truth, and that in any given argument, you know, it's not a matter of saying, Oh, I'm gonna decide. It's like no, what God is and what he has said is true, and it's more so just a matter of either being ignorant to it or actually like accepting it. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_12

And oh, I was gonna say, like, fundamentally, it's the idea that there's no such thing as a worldview that exists without God being and and that you sorry. Sorry, no, no, I thought you meant. I thought you were. But but that that there you don't you can't have a neutral stance on on the topic of God and whether or not God exists.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_12

So so if you are saying something along the lines, you see this a lot in agnostics today, it's like, well, we're not saying that God doesn't exist, we're just saying we can't know it. Like that's not a neutral stance. Like you you're either for or against it. Like there's yeah, in in the approach of presuppositional apologetics is saying that, well, we're not going to meet on a neutral ground where we can agree because you can't come to the table unless God allows you to come to the table. Yeah. You know, so that that's that's what I would say pre like very analogous way of describing presuppositional apologetics. Yeah, he probably has a better like pithy statement for it.

SPEAKER_09

I was gonna come up with a pithy statement. Yeah, uh so for anybody who doesn't understand, like I think that Christians in academia spend more time debating each other about what is the best way to debate Christ to debate Christianity than they actually spend debating Christianity with unbelievers. But it's true. Like I took um one of my first years in college, I took an apologetics uh class, and I thought I was gonna come in and I was gonna be like, okay, I'm gonna learn how to defend the faith. Like we're gonna we're gonna examine all the arguments. And then it's like the first half of the whole class was just epistemology, theory of knowledge, uh, how do you know what you know, uh-huh? Uh and philosophy and ontology and uh like like what is things, what are what are metaphysics? And it's and most of the class was just people arguing um about how do you do it. And so there's classical apologetics, which is you have to first assert that you're living in a theistic uh world. Yeah. So you're you're arguing for the existence of God first and then Christianity, evidential apologetics, which is just simply looking at the evidence. Um, and there are several others. There's pragmatic um arguments and there's uh what's called vereticalism and whatnot. But the pre-presuppositionalism is here's my pithy statement. Um, Greg Bonson, who is considered one of the biggest formulizers of the presuppositional apologetic, is let's say that you had a year and you were told that in one year a man was going to shoot three shots at you with a pistol, three bullets. You have two options in your whole year. You can either train to get really good at dodging each bullet, or you can train yourself to disarm the opponent. Um and I would say that's how presuppositionalism is. It's it's not um it's not letting the unbeliever assume the categories that are only for our worldview. So it's like to engage in evidence in evidences is to assume things about laws of logic and induction and things like that, which just aren't possible in an unbelieving worldview.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Which I suppose, like, I guess it combats this idea in that scenario that the person's like, well, I don't know if there's actually going to be a person that's gonna shoot these guns at this thing at me. It's like, no, this is gonna happen. So you either have to like, you know, it's either one or the other. Um can I did you say evidences? So I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_09

No, no, there's a rummy joke. Our first uh episode we ever put up, I said evidences, and our first hater said, This guy doesn't know what he's talking about because he doesn't even know how to use plural words. Um I've I've looked it up and it's I swear I've seen evidences and evidence in both cases.

SPEAKER_12

We're gonna have to we're gonna have to roll back the robot. Evidences I couldn't I couldn't let that pass without pointing it out. That's what I'm gonna look at you.

SPEAKER_11

It's like he said, he said the word, he said the word.

SPEAKER_02

So that that that's so that's about presuppositionalism, which is kind of like a method of like of coming to these apologetics. So I guess like that is because you know the question really was what's a challenge? And I guess that's one way of facing that is by saying, well, actually, there is this truth that everyone recognizes whether they know it or not, and you can't avoid that, and you can't just ignore it and be like, oh, well, I don't know. It's like you have to be like, okay, this is what the truth is, or it's not. Um, that's um that's really interesting. How how effective have have you guys seen that be like within your guys' ministry, uh particularly when engaging with others? Do you guys feel like when you've been able to kind of establish this framework within a given like discourse, how does that usually play out?

SPEAKER_12

It comes back down to the obstinacy a lot of times, what he's talking about. Yeah, I will say uh in terms of like how it's played out in discussions I've had with people, uh, it it generally turns into what I would consider um kind of like uh infinite regression on their part, which is I think a win for apologetics, you know, like it because if if you if you understand, you you quoted Calvin a little bit or you know, alluded to him when you said the the the goal of Paul Jetics is to shut the mouth of the unbeliever. I think the word he uses is like east trace or something like that. Um but like like that that's that's what Calvin said is the goal of the apologetics, for example. And if the the person that you're arguing against uh or or debating, you know, we don't I don't like arguing, you know, like like I'd rather it be like a discussion where we're but um if you're if you're having an argument with someone and their only response is to keep like moving the goalposts backwards, like at the end of the day, that means that they're invalidating the logic they claim to stand behind. So I I think that that is ultimately a win because at the very least, because it's very I I don't it's not very common in apologetics where where especially if the other person's very aggressive, it's not very common for them to just be like, you know what, you're right, you know, like you're not gonna see that in most of those cases.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_12

Um, and and and we wouldn't be that way if we got, you know, if we got roasted in a discussion either. So um, you know, I I think in terms of like understanding what does it mean, did we effectively like understanding what does it mean to give a good apologetic is not it shouldn't really be results based, I don't think. Like, yeah, I think you'll get I think you'll get beat down pretty quickly uh if you if you try to view like, oh, did they you know repent of their sin and judge that, judge your effective apologetics by that that method? That's not gonna happen more than likely. But uh I I would say from a presuppositional perspective, like I have found that it pushes the it forces them to push the goalposts further and further back. I've had people in discussions say, well, no, everything is purely subjective. Like starting off from like, oh no, you know, culture agree, for example, culture agrees on what morality is, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you have a discussion, they're like, well, no, no, it's all just purely subjective. And if if somebody says everything is purely subjective, like, first of all, is that a subjective statement or not? But but like, if you say something like that, in my opinion, you're punting on on your worldview because you don't no one believes that. Like nobody, I don't care what people say, nobody believes that everything is subjective. So I I think in that sense, if you could, if if people are starting to say stuff like that, I think that's ultimately a a victory for for the apologetic. Um, but yeah, that that's just my that I've I've seen that a lot more from a presuppositionalist than the classical side.

SPEAKER_09

Yeah, I I I think that because unbelievers, especially like more intellectual ones, they're aware of things like the cosmological argument and the theological argument. Like they're they're aware of of very basic um you know, case for Christ arguments, not not trying to bash Lee Strobel necessarily, but it's like it's pop apologetics. That's really what it is. It's pop apologetics. And it's extremely easy. I I remember going through a period of of doubting my faith, and all I could find on YouTube, this was several years ago, all I could find on YouTube at the time was um really pop arguments. I'm like, I can think of a response against that. Like this, this is it seems like you're trying to convince uh yourself uh in a way that's just trying to shut down your your intellectual faculties. So I would say that it's very easy for an unbeliever to say, well, there is an argument for the supposed uh resurrection of Jesus. And that's true. Like you you can interpret all of the evidence. Evidence is whatever. Um, you can interpret all that through your your system. Okay. So it like evidence is going to get interpreted, and it's gonna either get interpreted through my grid or his grid. Yeah. And I and I I have noticed that they don't seem to have a response to a presuppositional method. They genuinely are like, I don't know. And and I'm not saying that to uh to like play it up. Genuinely, they don't know how to respond. Sometimes they ignore it and keep going, but I would say it's exactly that, it's exactly obstinate.

SPEAKER_12

Yeah, actually, it's it's really interesting you point that out because the the only responses I've actually seen to presuppositional apologetics is just to discount presuppositional apologetics as an Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02

That's what I usually hear is like, oh, that's presuppositionalism, so therefore I'm just not an Yeah, like like, oh you you're a presuppositionalist, you you don't understand what we're saying.

SPEAKER_12

It's like yeah, that's that's not an argument. You know, like you still have to reckon with it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. And I think when it comes to this idea of like objectivity, which I guess then allows there to be sort of like a floor when it comes to um apologetics, I make it makes me think of um, and I actually found it this time, Romans 1 um 19, which says, for what can be known about God is plain to them because God has shown it to them for his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made, so they are without excuse. To me, I feel like that sort of encapsulates what we're talking about when it's like when we're talking about presuppositionalism too, which is kind of like, well, like everything that we experience in the world is the way that it is because God designed it that way. Um, and so, and I think that's one thing that's kind of interesting. Um, and tell me what your guys' take might be on this. This might be a total tangent. So uh uh, well, I am the editor, so I'll just have to cut it out of it. So the um, but it's like, you know, I feel like whenever we're talking about Christianity, and this is also another thing that I draw from from John 17, where he's talking about eternal life being just knowing God and knowing God, and then Paul talking about, well, God has shown himself in creation, he's shown himself in the in like in in things that are made. To me, it seems that it's interesting how sometimes people will engage with Christianity as if it is simply a religion. Even and I mean, it is a religion, like it is a religion, it is a worldview, but like that it's simply that to me, it's like, well, no, as a believer, if I really believe in the God of the Bible, the thing is he is the I am. Like we're just talking about being in touch with reality itself. Like it's not just about like saying, oh, we're just trying to come up with like a framework so that we can figure out what we're gonna do on Sundays, you know. It's like, no, we are trying to have a relationship with the one who literally holds the fabric of reality in his hands. So um, with that, it's kind of like it's important to realize the objectivity of that too. And it's just kind of like, you know, and so that's the thing that I think of whenever like thinking about Christianity, the way people approach it, it's kind of like, well, no, this isn't just, we're not just talking about religious practices. We're talking about actually like experiencing reality for what it is, um, and allowing ourselves to experience that fully the way God intended, because we have a relationship with him. And I guess that's kind of for me, like when I think about like when we're talking about the goal of apologetics, like to me, everything kind of comes back to the gospel, right? And actually, one thing, because you guys are some smart guys, one thing that I've always wanted to do, and I don't know if this is like this is probably just something that I can do whenever I'm just the host and Michael's not here. Uh I I've always wanted to do a thing where every time we have someone on, I just ask them like a simple question, like, what is the gospel to you? So, and I guess when it comes to apologetics, we'll talk about how apologetics kind of plays into that. But to me, I feel like everything that we do as Christians revolves around the gospel. So for you, what what is the gospel?

SPEAKER_12

Uh Jesus Christ came to save sinners. If we were gonna put it into one sentence, that's what I'd say. Uh obviously you can uh talk about the definition of of sinners and and what it means to save them. But at its root, if I'm gonna give the gospel in one sentence, it's that Jesus Christ came to save sinners. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_09

That's what I got to do. Uh I don't know if I can be that concise. I mean, I I borrowed it, I borrowed it from I think Paul. So yeah, so I'm not as concise as Paul. Um yeah, so I would say that it's important to understand before we even get to things like condemnation, yeah, why there even is condemnation. A lot of people find hell to be unjust because they're like, surely my punishment doesn't fit the crime. And I think that the way of understanding why there's condemnation is that we don't quite understand how beautiful God is. Yeah. So God is life. That's just what he's called. He's called life, he's called love, he's called truth, he's called righteousness, justice, fairness. And what we did in humanity, being made for his glory, and I would define that as simply being made to enjoy him, uh, we chose to reject him. Yeah. And God, being righteous and fair, says, okay, to reject life is to choose death.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09

And that was a knowledgeable decision all of us made in our forefather Adam. And God has every right to condemn in that way, and he would be perfectly righteous to do it. But God is not just righteous, he is also merciful and loving. He delights in showing mercy. And so God chose to send his son to take the punishment that we deserve. And I think that that's something that really should make believers cry the more they think on it. Jonathan Edwards talks about the very close relationship that the Trinity shared together. Yeah. So it's that I I don't know if this is the best way to think about it, but this is a good um way to express the closeness. It's like God the Father is um the deity in its most base essence. And in in Edwards' mind, the father has a concept of what he is like being perfect, complete love, complete joy, complete, complete happiness, and that emanates in a person, which is why we would say the son is eternally begotten of the father. Yeah and they have such a deep, close relationship, so much love that that proceeds forth in a third person, the Holy Spirit. Um, that that is generally how Augustine understood it, and that's generally how Edwards understood it. And so when you understand that the son was in the bosom of the Father, he was as close as you could possibly be, the son of his love. I don't know another uh time when God the Father talks about, I love this guy, I love this guy all throughout. He constantly says, the son of my love, the son of my eudachia, my good pleasure. And he and what Jesus does on the cross, life himself, the God of life, takes that death for anyone who would put their faith in him. Uh it's it's beautiful. Like God, the like he didn't do anything wrong, he did he fulfilled righteousness for us, he was perfect for us. And all of this was done so that we could go back to knowing him and honestly knowing him more fully. So if we just simply trust in Christ, not relying on either our own works or even the quality or the extremity of our faith, yeah, not looking inwardly, not looking at ourselves, but simply looking to Jesus, we are assured that not only are we saved from the wrath of God, but we become a co-son with Christ. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. That's amazing. Well, and I think even just to add on top of what you guys are saying, like to me, I think the gospel also even extends to um to the Great Commission, like because of what Jesus did. Because once again, the goal, like eternal life is knowing God. At the end of at the end of days, like in Revelation, that's gonna be the point where everyone's gonna know who God is. Yeah, like this is like this is that's the conclusion. And then so part of the gospel narrative as we're going through it is okay, well, now we also have this Great Commission where it's like, okay, this is what we're doing while we're waiting for Jesus also to return and then that final conclusion happening. Um, and then that's where apologetics might come in.

SPEAKER_12

I I would add to that too, that yeah, we we talk about oh, I think a lot of times we're talking about what is the Christian responsibility in the interim. Yeah, yeah. Um, between Jesus first and second coming was the Christian and the church's responsibility. Yeah. I I want to stress that I really think we should think about it more proactively instead of like like I I get concerned a lot of times with the uh the health of the church in terms of thinking of Christian morality and the Christian life as a set of like things to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and I I really want to stress that like the life of the Christian is not marked by the the the individual things that one does, but the things that that we do come out of a way that we live. Yeah. And so uh this is you know, feel free to cut this. You know what I mean? But like you look at like Galatians 4, for example, yeah, and and there's a huge um discussion on the two covenants, right, represented by Hagar and Sarah. And uh, you know, you have the church which is the descendant of of the promise of Sarah, and you have uh we could call old Israel, but really everyone else that's this the descendant of the law. And then in Galatians 5, he talks about how the church basically uh as the heirs of the promise, the church is then given a spirit, and that that manifests itself in the fruit of the spirit. And the fruit of the spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentle, all that stuff, right? But the things of the law that that belong to those under the Hagar covenant, as it were, are things sexual immorality, drunkenness, and lie. Like those are the types of things that they talk about. And so the question I would have a lot of times for people uh is why is one of them a list of uh actions and the other a list of dispositions? And I would argue that that uh the church and the Christian um they live a life according to the spirit, which manifests itself in dispositions, and it's through the dispositions that we then go and act in a moral way according to the righteousness of God. Right. So that that the morality of the Christian life is not something that is based on the law. Yeah. But when we talk about what is freedom in Christ, we we it doesn't mean just that we are free from you know the the condemnation of the law. But that you you see, in when whenever the the Bible talks about the law, a lot of times it uses the word the law restrains. The word restrain comes up with the word law a lot in the New Testament. The point being that the purpose of the law is to restrain people, right? It's to restrain us from committing acts of sexual immorality and and idolatry and whatever it is. But but the Christian life is one that's that's not marked by things not to do, but ways to live. And because we live in certain ways, we will do certain things. We will obey first John 2 3. We we know we have come to know him because we will obey his commands, but but we don't love him because we obey his commands, we obey his commands because we love him. So so when we're talking about like what is the Great Commission, I don't want us to think about it in terms of like, well, we go and evangelize because Christians ought to go and evangelize. Yeah, yeah. It's more like we evangelize because we love God so much. God has enabled us to love him so much that we want to go and make a we want to bring, we want to realize that kingdom everywhere.

SPEAKER_02

Well, it comes out of our love for God, but it also comes out of the fact that we have been given new identities. Like this is just our identity. So it's out of those things that we then act in these ways. Like there's so much language, especially that Paul uses, where it's like, you know, when he talks about, oh, you have been set free, you have been born again, these are all identity statements where it's like because of you, you because of your status and the state of being, that is what then is supposed to produce fruit.

SPEAKER_12

I I gotta warn you, you're talking to a couple of post millennials here. So, so the the stuff you're saying here is is we are a hundred percent in agreement with, and if if again, I I realize uh I don't want to be, you know, too judicious or too uh you know extravagant with your time. Uh from our perspective, from the post millennial perspective, there we actually bul when you talk about like a new creation, a new identity, like There is literally a new a kingdom that we are a part of that is not the world. Yeah. That's that's the way that the postmillennial looks at it.

SPEAKER_09

It it's militaristic.

SPEAKER_12

Yeah, that we are we are gonna go conquer the world for for the kingdom of God and the postmillennial, we think we're gonna be successful ultimately. What does that look like? How what's the time take time frame? Don't know. Honestly, I don't know that that matters, but it it's the the whole purpose of the Christian life is we want to bring the kingdom of God to bear on earth. Like that's that's what the the post-millennial Christian wants.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. More than anything else. For sure. Guys, if it seems like there's a lot that needs to be unpacked here, it's because there is. Uh we're gonna have to, we're gonna have to have more podcasts. We'll have to have you guys back for this. We can talk about more of these things. But I guess, like, so I guess um just to go from that, and actually, even with what you're saying about um even with the post-millennial view and kind of what we're talking about here, what it brings me to then is um prayer, because this is the prayer culture podcast. Right. When we're talking about prayer, how does prayer play a role in apologetics? And I kind of have an idea of where I want to go kind of with this, but I want to even just hear from you guys what comes to mind when you think of prayer and apologetics together.

SPEAKER_09

I I would say that ultimately prayer is about realigning our minds to the mind of Christ. Okay, so you you can destroy your best Christian effort by not adopting the mind of Christ in it. So it's very easy to do apologetics, not just uh poorly, but sinfully, such as trying to win an argument, such as just trying to condemn and not trying to give life. So it guards our hearts from an unbelieving worldview, first of all. Because again, apologetics isn't just for the unbeliever. Everybody struggles with doubts, everybody struggles with these things. It's just part of our of our sinful makeup uh post-fall. Uh, we we have the flesh that wars against our minds. And so, first of all, it helps us to sanctify Christ as Lord in our heart. That's the first thing First Peter says. First, sanctify Christ as Lord in your heart, then be ready to give a defense. So making sure you know who you are before God and who God is to you. It guards our minds from thinking in a purely academic and secular way. Another thing it does is it helps us to be mission focused. Okay, so like being militaristically minded, the the gates of hell will not uh withstand against the kingdom. Uh, understanding that we're on the offensive, we're not on the defensive, uh, and and viewing yourself as a soldier under King Jesus. Again, this just helps us reorient our minds. And it also helps us to make sure that this is God-centered. So this isn't just about I'm doing things, but I'm trying to please my father in heaven. I'm trying to please the king who loved me. Yeah. And then finally, finally, I'll turn it over to you. It it makes things love focused. Um, it is very easy, like I said, to do apologetics in a way that is unloving. Um, and if you if you cannot do apologetics and defend the faith uh and shut down uh unbelieving worldviews to the unbeliever and not do it out of love for God and for the person you're speaking to, then you need to shut your own mouth. And I think I think that prayer uh plays an integral role because it realigns our minds with the mind of Christ. Because all those things that I said, that's the disposition of Christ. Yeah.

SPEAKER_12

Yeah, I don't I don't have a ton to add to that. The only thing I would add to that maybe is uh just the concept of gratitude in prayer. Where, like, you know, you look at, for example, I mean I I'm preaching through Hebrews at at my church, but yeah, Hebrews 12, I I go there every sermon. I make a joke about it every sermon because every sermon is about Hebrews 12. Um, but it says, you know, be grateful for we are receiving receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken. Um and to do that with reverence and awe. And if you think about gratefulness, reverence, and and awe as kind of the dispositions of kingdom members, right? That we're receiving a kingdom, and because of that, these are three things that that the author of Hebrews says we must do, or not not that we should do them, not again, not in terms of law that you ought to be this way, but that's the natural response of someone receiving such a great kingdom. So when we pray, and I I I I have been advocating for a while, ever since I've been going through Hebrews, for what I call like proactive gratefulness, or like like we get to be part. God has uh allowed us to be part of progressing his kingdom. Like we don't deserve that, yeah. But but understanding that like as undeserving as we are, we get to behold the kingdom as it conquers everything. Yeah, like God, God takes little old me and and through his grace and mercy allows me to be a part of that. And so, so approaching it with gratefulness and humility, um, and and then understanding that ultimately the work belongs to God, right? Because you know, Hebrews 12, our God is a consuming fire, right? So God is God is ultimately the one that's gonna do the consuming, but He He can do that through us. Yeah, and so being grateful for just the opportunity to be used as a tool in that progress, even as small as a tool as we might be, being grateful for the opportunity to be a part of that, and then and then you know, when we're praying, you know, again, I think thankfulness, uh gratefulness is a part of that, but then understanding, you know, praying according to the will of God, as you were saying, and and understanding that ultimately that work is going to be something that comes from God, who is the consuming fire. Right. So I I think I think I I really think you're you're on on it when you say that like it's about aligning our will to God. It's like praying according to God's will, and I think praying according to you know God's promises as well. You know, like this is what God said he was going to do. We want to see God fulfill his promises. You look at the Old Testament, that's what a lot of the prayer is, is God please fulfill your promises. So I think uh I think that that is that that understanding apologetics as one of the tools used by the Christian in order to effect that end goal is absolutely uh that's absolutely what the the purpose of prayer is, in my opinion. There is a part of it, anyways, is is that so yeah.

SPEAKER_02

As you're just thinking about the privilege that it is to be a part of his kingdom and the fact that we have not just been saved, we've not just been given the privilege of being in his presence, but the fact that he then also involves us with the things that he's doing, like that's that's that's crazy. You're talking about a total 180, you know what I mean, from being his enemies to now we are literally his soldiers. Um, and so it and the image that came to my mind as well was um the passage of scripture where he talks about um the the lamp stand, holding the lamp stand up so where it can like shine the light. And I this image of that us being the the lamp and the candle, but it's the Holy Spirit and God that's actually the fire that is creating the light. And we're just simply like we've been given the privilege of being the people that get to carry that around and show that to other people. Um, and uh, you know, whenever I think of prayer when it comes to apologetics too, is the one thing that always comes to my mind is this, which is, you know, you can make all the arguments in the world, you can be complete, right? You can convince somebody in their mind. But when it comes to somebody actually being transformed in their heart and in their soul, I think that's where a big part of prayer comes into, because a lot of prayer is us engaging with the Holy Spirit. So I think a lot of it also comes with pleading to the Holy Spirit too, like, hey, pray that this person isn't just convinced in their mind, but that actually their heart is transformed, that actually you can draw them to Christ and that they can actually experience and I because I think that's a one thing too, um, when I think about discussing Christianity with anybody. I I have a I have a real we have a really close friend, me and my wife have a really close friend who's an atheist, and we've shared the gospel with them. We've, you know, we've had discussions and things like that. And it dawned on me one day, I was like, man, we could talk to this guy all day, but until the Holy Spirit actually impacts him personally, to where he experiences something like real, like, you know, that's that doesn't say, oh, you know, oh, that means that we're gonna like not talk to him about the gospel or whatever, and just let the Holy Spirit figure it out. But it's kind of like that is ultimately where our prayer should lie. Like when we're engaging with him, you know, exposing him to what the gospel looks like. But then when we're on our own, um, whether it be in the secret place or together, like that's our prayer is that Lord, let your Holy Spirit actually impact this person in a deep way. Because a lot of uh where our identity shifts, that's that deep root that really only the Holy Spirit kind of creates, you know, in us. So um, and I guess um, so that's that's kind of what um have have you guys ever experienced through um apologetics or through like your guys' ministry? Have you guys ever experienced um somebody truly like coming to Christ and being like, wow, not only do I am I convinced of this, but you know what? Over time, and I mean I guess it doesn't have to be instant because it's not always how it is, but have you ever witnessed a scenario where somebody has eventually been led to, okay, hey, they're actually um a believer?

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09

So I I would want to add this point. It's that apologetics um just can't save. The the Romans talks about how we're like the knowledge of God leaves the unbeliever on apologis. So notice that apologia in there without a defense, without an excuse. The the goal of apologetics is to demonstrate the condemnation, and uh therefore there's no saving power within it. Um I have never seen an instance where I I have I have been like I've never gotten a response where, wow, you know what? You're right, and I guess I have to become a Christian. Because I'm a Christian, and I have a I have a great story about this because I I remember being really young and getting really into apologetics, and I was working a waiting job, and uh I had a friend or a coworker who was not a Christian, and he was willing to have some conversations with me about religion. I had not I had not engaged in things like presuppositional apologetics at all, but I just like dumped on him so much information, like a ridiculous amount of things like prophecy and why that's irrefutable and why these scholars can't make sense of that because XYZ. Yeah, and like he was honestly, as a secularist, way more patient with me than I would have been with myself. Um and he and he said, you know what he said? He said, you know what? You're right. He said, You're right. Like I don't have a I don't have a reason to not be a Christian, but I don't want to. Yeah, I just kind of where I was like, okay, I might be, I might not be able to reason my way to an un uh to someone being saved. And I think that's important to say it's like something I think I've said before and when we did our evangelism seminar was if you can convince someone to be a Christian, then they're not a Christian. That's a false conversion. Um, it has to be the Holy Spirit. So I have seen um situations where uh you utilizing apologetics, they are left without excuse. And then over time, because they know they don't have an out, and through pr uh persistent love and persistent conversations and uh pastoral care, there is a conversion.

SPEAKER_12

Um yeah, I've heard somebody again. I I want to give credit to John Milbane because I think it was him, where he said something along the lines of like the goal of evangelism and apologetics is to be the voice crying in the wilderness, prepare ye the way for the Lord. Um that that ultimately that's what we're doing. Yeah we are we are cultivating the ground so the seed can be planted. Um and so I I yeah, to Mason's point, in terms of an apologetics discussion, uh I I think we said this earlier. Like I've never ever experienced anyone just being like, you know what? I got nothing. It's much more likely for them to to turn into like a moving the goalposts type of thing, which is which is what I normally see. Yeah, but I think you know Doug Wilson talked uh I I took. We just keep getting more and more controversial about it.

SPEAKER_08

You know, I love presuppositional post-millennium. Now you bring his name into this.

SPEAKER_12

Uh look, man, Doug's a pretty cool dude. Um, I I took class, I went, I I've taken classes from from him. And he talks about Doug Wilson has a very famous kind of like tour with Christopher Hitchens. And um they they made like a six-part documentary series on it type of thing. Like, like I think it was called Collision or something like that. Yeah, it's called Collision. Um, but it I remember him talking about his experience with Christopher Hitchens. He talks about how uh on this apologetics road, like there's multiple steps that one takes before they become an actual, you know, before you like, especially when you're as radical as someone like Christopher Hitchens. Yeah, like it starts off not with them admitting that they are completely incorrect, but changing from being 100% like, oh yeah, Christianity is evil to well, maybe I wouldn't, you know, kill every last Christian, you know, like what Christopher Hitchens says, like I would eradicate Christianity. So you know, like like and he he says what Doug Wilson had said about Christopher Hitchens was over time he came to see Hitchens take a softer stance against Christianity, uh, which again, I don't think Christopher Hitchens was saved. He wrote a book called Mortality at the end of his life, definitely wasn't saved when he wrote that. So I I don't think Christopher Hitchens was saved. Doug Wilson doesn't think Christopher Hitchens was saved, but he does think that given enough time, just given the trajectory downwards, that perhaps he would have been open to that as time went on. And so, like there's a lot more fruit to look at in terms of an apologetics discussion than did this person repent and become saved. And and those are types of things that someone again, the the reason I bring Doug Wilson into the discussion, is because he does have that experience of of seeing Christopher Hitchens kind of not move off of you know the new atheist stuff entirely, but at the very least begin to soften towards it, right? And and so like understanding that it's not just like a one-time thing, like yeah, like we we when we did our uh evangelism seminar, we talked about the necessity of like continuing to disciple the people that we evangelize and and uh have an apologetic towards, building the relationships, yeah, because like sharing the gospel once, I don't want to say it can never be effective, like it absolutely can be, but it's much more beneficial for people who are interested in that to find themselves in a community where the community can disciple them. Yeah, right. Like ultimately the the way to be the way to become a a Christian, someone who lives like a Christian, is not just to hear the gospel once from somebody on the street, yeah, but to then act on that and become part of a church, for example.

SPEAKER_09

Because because the gospel doesn't say um make converts of all nations. The Great Commission says to make disciples of all nations.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09

So it it's there I have sorry, I'm about to go on a tangent and I it's probably not beneficial, but I I just I've been on mission trips. Um, I've known many people who have been on many mission trips. And I the type where you just go for a summer and hand out tracks and then leave, and then maybe you have a couple conversions and then you leave them, that that's hating your neighbor. Yeah. Um, like I I can see the benefit of mission trips when you're trying to disciple them and get them plugged in with the church at least. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But like I I think it is extremely dangerous and unhelpful to I I think what's so funny about missions trips, the more that I think about it, whenever I think of the way people kind of treat mission trips now versus I feel like like when you look at the early church, when you look at even what Paul was doing, it was like you would go to a place and you would basically stay there until there was a church. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_08

You'd stay there long after you.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you would stay there until there was a church, and then you would stay there for a little bit even after that, because you're right, it's like you're building these relationships, you're making these disciples, and you're um you're cultivating this community. Um, and so that's why, yeah, like the one week, two-week trips usually aren't really that as as effective. I mean, not that they can't be, yeah, but you know, um, but that but yeah, that's why like it's it's all about how the Holy Spirit works into it. And that once again, that's just that's the role that prayer kind of has for it. So I guess for right now, even to try to conclude this uh hour-long conversation, but it's very good. The uh to um what is something that you think that we should pray for within the context of apologetics, within the context of the field of evangelism? Because yeah, I I I feel like apologetics and evangelism seems to go kind of hand in hand in this conversation. What are some things that we should be praying for?

SPEAKER_12

Uh I mean, I'd say again, understanding that prayer is first and foremost you know, trying to pray according to the will of God. Like we don't want the church to succeed because we are part of the church necessarily, but because the church is God's kingdom. So we we we want to see God's kingdom succeed. We want to go and make disciples for Jesus, for for God, not for man's sake. Yeah, right. So I I would say when it comes to what to pray for, like remove the man aspect from it as much as possible. Because the second it starts becoming like, oh, look how good my rhetorical skills are, or you know, look how good I am at this method of evangelization, you know, like that that's what we want to avoid because we want to make as little of man and as much as Christ as possible. So I'd say that that that, but not just at a personal level, on a church-wide level. Um, you know, I think it's very easy for for especially like really good speakers in the church or you know, big figures in the church, like it it calls to mind the discussion in in um like first Corinthians, where people will be like, oh yeah, but I was you know baptized by Paul, I was baptized by Apollos. It's like, no, you're all baptized to the one church. Yeah. And so, you know, understanding that that this isn't a a discussion. This isn't it shouldn't be an argument between Christians. Right. We we want we want the church to be as unified as possible. If the church, if the church is not unified on things, then it's gonna hamper the success that the church has, right? So I I would say that that that kind of aspect of like removing the the stumbling blocks, as it were, of the church being able to succeed in those things. Um and and uh one way or another coming to a unity on uh on at the very least on what the mission of the church is. You're always gonna have different people that disagree on the method of of doing that. But I'd much rather have a discussion on like what's the best uh path forward to see this happen, as opposed to, well, is the church even doing the right thing? So I'd say ultimately um just unity in church mission is probably the thing I would say is is most important to pray for.

SPEAKER_09

I I would add too, like a a great prayer that I try to pray every time I go into any kind of apologetic or evangelistic um situation is to pray to God to remember that I'm doing this before his face. I I remember um there was a situation where a friend had invited me to sit down with um her Roman Catholic father and uh uncle, who was like a leader in the in his local Roman Catholic Church, um, and to have like a several hour long discussion um regarding the difference between Protestant Christianity and Roman Catholicism. And I remember being in the car um really stressed, not because I was scared to have a conversation, um, but really I was scared of making this a mental joust. And something I just kept praying was, Father, please be pleased. Um ple please help me keep in mind that I'm doing this Quram deo before the face of God. And I think that as long as a genuine Christian is keeping that at the forefront of their minds and is constantly praying for that to become more realized in them, yeah, I really think they're going to end up doing things that please God.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely. Well, that's amazing, guys. It was fun having you guys on. Honestly, what you guys do is is amazing. Where can people find you? Like uh like on YouTube, like on uh what's you guys have a website?

SPEAKER_09

Yeah, so we have a a website called OdysseyLessons.com. Yeah. Not org. I think that's correct. Not net. You know, if I have my business card, I have it in my I have them in my car. I should have checked it. It's uh yeah. Um yeah, so you can go on on our website. Uh we also have a YouTube channel where we upload all of our videos. Uh it's called, it's just simply called Odyssey, but we're too small for you to just type in Odyssey and not have um uh something with Homer get brought up. Yeah, yeah. So uh Odyssey Lessons one uh one word should pop up and you'll see our little ship logo. And um what we put all our stuff on there. We also have an Instagram. That's the ship logo. That's the ship.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's the ship right there. Hopefully the camera will pick it up. Either way, I'll find your logo and put it up there too.

SPEAKER_09

Yeah, and and an Instagram, Odyssey Lessons, I think. But yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02

Odyssey lessons, like and subscribe to their stuff. These are really cool guys. Thank you guys for coming in. It's it's been a real pleasure, y'all.

SPEAKER_12

Thank you for having us. It's real gracious of you to have us on here. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_10

I was discipled up in a wonderful church that was very Bible centric, which just means, you know, they love the Bible, love studying the Bible. And there was a great emphasis on evangelism, but we didn't have much emphasis on Corporate prayer. And so I I just didn't really understand how to approach God.

SPEAKER_05

A lot of people are in the same boat that I'm in, where we value prayer. We know it's important. We value the gifts of the Spirit, but we just don't know how.

SPEAKER_13

I can recall when we had just two minutes of silence at our church just to stop everything and focus on God and how unsettling that was. Just to be still for two minutes.

SPEAKER_03

Prayer is like this suitcase that's filled with a lot of things. These things can be daunting, hard to measure, hard to control. It can feel less like a suitcase and more like Pandora's box for a lot of churches, you know? Like what if we really press in here, what's gonna happen? What kind of church are we gonna become?

SPEAKER_11

I mean, God's throne of grace is not just this simple thing that we just go into like a like a store. I mean, we are talking about a holy, majestic, wonderful God, but he welcomes his children with open arms.

SPEAKER_10

One day in Africa I was praying, and I felt like the Lord was encouraging me that I would be part of a prayer movement among Bible-centric churches like the one I came out of. The Lord brought that word back to me with Matthew 18, 20, where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them. Two or more can actually come alongside and help give people a framework for prayer that's biblical, a framework for relationship with God that is biblical, and just help people go, hey, let's actually make space for the Spirit of God to do things he did in the Bible.

SPEAKER_00

When you're praying with two or more, there's an agreement there with God's word and with God Himself, and there's power in that.

SPEAKER_04

First of all, he tells us we need to pray. It's all on him, and that is a double blessing, a double glory to God. Unless God truly does move, nothing will happen. You know, Jesus says, apart from me, you can do nothing. That is very true, you know.

SPEAKER_03

Whether a church is already a praying church or struggling to become a praying church, and I don't mean there's a prayer meeting every so often, but there's a culture of prayer, of dependence on the Lord, of expectancy. Two or more is just so helpful, so practical. Just through the leadership of the scriptures, really bringing what the scriptures say all together with faith and with obedience to just kind of break through a bit and get us into a different place where we really know we're sitting at the feet of Jesus and He's listening closely and He's speaking.

SPEAKER_06

It is a good tool for encouraging the practice of prayer among the members of your church, giving them an outlet, giving them a tool to reach out and connect with other believers on a regular basis to pray together.

SPEAKER_01

Group of men that pray together come from multiple different churches when you really begin to pray. Full heartfelt prayers. I think there's just a fellowship of the Holy Spirit that happens in that place that really brings a unity.

SPEAKER_13

The blessing it is to us and to do those spiritual disciplines that help us to get more and more conformed to his image because we're spending more and more time with him.

SPEAKER_10

So we have a number of ways to get involved. If it's like, hey, you're in a Bible-centric church, you hear this, and you're like, oh, we need that. We need more prayer in our church, I want to try this. Get connected with me and we'd love to start a prayer meeting at your church.

SPEAKER_13

Is there anything more valuable that your congregation could be doing than praying? You know, if we've got if we've got time for Sunday school, and if we have time for youth group, and if we have time for all the other ancillary activities that take place in a local congregation, we ought to have time, a dedicated time for prayer.

SPEAKER_03

The God who created everything listens to us. Jesus died for us so that we could be cleansed and made righteous and we could approach the throne of grace with confidence to find mercy in our time of need. He wants to partner with us. And do we want to partner with him? Is the question.