Taiwanese Change Makers

Transforming Tomorrow: Climate Action with Tammy Hu (Co-Founder of B Lab Taiwan and DOMI)

• Taiwanese Change Makers • Season 1 • Episode 1

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Join us for an insightful episode featuring Tammy Hu, a social entrepreneur transforming Taiwan's approach to sustainability. From her beginnings in banking and fashion to becoming the co-founder of B-Lab Taiwan and Domi, Tammy’s journey illustrates the power of purpose-driven work. As she shares her unique perspective on climate action, she highlights the importance of empowering individuals and organizations to make meaningful changes. Learn about her innovative strategies for shifting mindsets, fostering collaboration within communities, and building sustainable business models that generate positive environmental impact.

Tammy also explores the significant role of grassroots initiatives in addressing pressing climate challenges. With a focus on community engagement, she shares inspiring examples of companies in Taiwan that are leading the way in sustainability. The conversation not only sheds light on the evolving climate policies in Taiwan but also urges listeners to recognize their own potential to contribute to a greener future.

This episode is a call to action for anyone interested in environmental leadership and social impact. Tune in and discover how personal values can intersect with professional endeavors to drive change in our societies. Let’s spark the conversation on sustainability and empower ourselves and our communities to lead the way toward a brighter future. Don't forget to subscribe and share your thoughts on the episode!

Adrian de Courcey :

Hi and welcome to Taiwanese Change Makers, a new podcast hosted by myself, Adrian de Courcey, featuring conversations with Taiwan's groundbreaking entrepreneurs, technologists, artists and scientists. For our very first episode, I'm pleased to welcome Tammy Hu, a remarkable social entrepreneur who is reshaping Taiwan's approach to sustainability. Tammy is the co-founder of B-Lab Taiwan and Domi she's a TEDx speaker and a passionate climate advocate. Tammy has a fascinating journey which spans banking, fashion and marketing, and she brings a unique perspective to environmental leadership while balancing life as a mother of three. Today, we'll explore Tammy's personal journey, her vision for climate action in Taiwan and the valuable insights she's gained along the way. Tammy, welcome to Taiwanese Change Makers.

Tammy Hu:

Hello Adrian, Hello everyone, I'm Tammy. I'm very honored to be here today and sharing my story.

Adrian de Courcey :

Great that you can join us. Let's begin with your early story, your early years, and maybe you can share with our audience your journey from growing up in Taiwan to your international experiences in study and work.

Tammy Hu:

Well for me, I grew up in Kaohsiung, where is the second largest city in Taiwan population just over a little bit more than 2 million and I happened to have a chance to attend the British Education Fair. And then, just luckily, I got a chance to go study in UK at the age of 16, I believe, where all the rest of my schoolmates are preparing for the final exam for the university. And then I spent about eight years in UK finishing up my A-levels, my university degrees and my master degrees in London, and right after that I spent about two years I was working for the banking industry and then, actually a little bit before that I was during my school time. I was taking up all kinds of jobs I believe over 50 as a phone operator, as working in Safeways and restaurant waitress, and then HMV, all that kind. So, yeah, just get myself to get myself paid, to have money to live in London and then so I do all kinds of work over there.

Tammy Hu:

So right after my study I was working in the bank and soon after my associate life there I realized I don't really like interacting with computer without talking at all. So I was a research analyst. So I quit my job in order to take some gap time, and then I was planning to go back to London to find my second whatever work, and so I planned to travel in China for about a month, but unexpectedly, actually during that traveling time, I landed a dream job that I guess a lot of girls wanted, which is working in fashion industry. I was working for Cosmopolitan magazine as a fashion editor. So that's how I started.

Tammy Hu:

Well, I spent my almost three years there working as an editor, as a marketing manager, and I'm the only taiwanese person within a 500 person organization making about 300 pounds a month, which is one-tenth of what I made in the UK. Yeah, so that's that's how I started in Beijing unexpectedly. So it was a short-term contract and it turns out into one year and two years, and then, right after that, I just happened to really like it there. There's a lot of international vibes, a lot of competitions and new stuff coming into China the booming period of China.

Adrian de Courcey :

This was around the time of the Beijing Olympics?

Tammy Hu:

Oh yeah, yeah, that was a little bit before that. Then, after my time in Cosmopolitan, I started my own travel cafe and my PR agency because I really want to be the hotspot for sort of foreign travellers or even Chinese travellers who can get access and information to all the kind of stories of backpackers, photographers, like the travel magazine from abroad, all that. So, I have this hotspot place for people who love traveling. And funny thing is that because the name of my cafe is called Xiangqu Lixing, meaning want to go travel, so actually people passing by and try to get a thought that we are a travel agency, so they're asking for the ticket, for us to issue tickets.

Adrian de Courcey :

It's a good way to attract business.

Tammy Hu:

Yes, so I have my travel cafe and a PR agency which is also a hub for Western fashion brands to land in China because I speak the language and I also understand the culture. I understand the differences between the Chinese sort of media and fashion industry and Western you could bridge the cultural gap, basically between between the different cultures.

Adrian de Courcey :

What sparked your interest in climate change? Because obviously it's quite different from your background in banking and in fashion yeah, that was interesting question and interesting change for me?

Tammy Hu:

I was, yeah, working in this heavily carbon emission industry for many years and it really sparked me is when I started to have my own kids and start really paying attention to, wow, how badly polluted the air is, because people around me, my friends, they all had toddlers at the age of three or four and all of them just like cannot stop coughing all the time. And I started to realize, wow, they're building all this tent on top of their soccer field and all that like outdoor places to try to keep the kids indoor. And just one day I realized, wow, things get really seriously because kids at three years old, they couldn't stop coughing. And that really hit me hardly is my sister's kid, who was also at age of five or something. She was coughing also. So we went to doctor and the doctor actually seriously told us that she suffered from this I don't know really serious lung problem and warned us not to get her into sort of any serious activities or sports.

Tammy Hu:

So, I guess I was reaching that point where I needed to go somewhere else to get away from this really polluted air. So back at that time, my hometown just came as one of the options, because I remember back that time I was away from home for 15-something years already. So me and my husband we met in Beijing. We're both from the same city. Very interesting, because it is not a very open city. People don't usually go abroad. Yeah, so we decided to go back.

Adrian de Courcey :

You left China because the pollution and and you felt it was having a debilitating impact on your children's lives. So then, landing back in Taiwan, what gave you the impetus to start B-Lab Taiwan?

Tammy Hu:

We were both looking for something entrepreneurial because we are both entrepreneurs and secondly, we were looking for something that we can believe in for a long time, but then we don't really understand the word social entrepreneur. We just know that we don't want a life that we can expect.

Tammy Hu:

In a few years' time we will be CEO, whatever that, yeah, and still travel around the world, polluted and you want to do something that would give back to society and and make a meaningful difference, just very simple level, and we happen to have a chance to get to know the B-Corp certification, the B-Corp movement and I used Domi as a way to start applying. Back then, B-corp to me is actually, well, there's a good chance that I can do both, meaning that people in companies know that we have that career and we can have the great lives at the same time, and then find meaning at work.

Tammy Hu:

That's one thing, and second is there's actually a community doing that together, a community that really brings people to do good things together and get society better. So that was the initial thought that, wow, there is something like that, both with the certification to make sure people are following certain rules at the same time as a movement. And what strikes me the most is that this movement is about how founders think as a principle, so that this principle will drive you along the way and making sure it's not on track.

Adrian de Courcey :

You put yourself in the mindset of an environmentally conscious founder in in setting up B-Lab Taiwan. You're in a unique position, as co-founding two environmental businesses, B-lab Taiwan and Domi. What's the actual difference, to help us, between B-Lab Taiwan and Domi?

Tammy Hu:

B-Lab Taiwan is a non-profit organization and the whole the mission is about inspiring companies to use business as force for good and benefit all stakeholders, including people, community, planet.

Tammy Hu:

That was fascinating back in I mean, they started 16, 17 years way back and that was a very new idea. So that's what B-Lab is about. And for Domi, because for me as a mother, as an entrepreneur, as a part of the important element of society, even when I wanted to do some work with environment or social, I actually don't know where to start. So I intentionally set up Domi as a way to support individual corporations, to really find their purpose in life and also at work, to walk their sustainability transformation journey. I am trying to encourage, empower or handhold all we call it climate champion or champion within the organization to really using their business and using the innovative technology business models to play roles in solving social and environmental issues. It wasn't that clear back then but looking back, I have all those elements already planted in my head in my previous work experiences.

Adrian de Courcey :

So B Lab Taiwan was much more about accreditation, while Domi is more about empowering individuals and corporations and it's more about helping them on the transformation to becoming a more environmental and green company?

Tammy Hu:

Yes, yes, about taking actions.

Adrian de Courcey :

A t Domi, you focus on shifting mindsets. What have you found to be the most effective tactical strategy in changing people's mindsets? What have you found to be the most effective tactical strategy in changing people's mindsets on sustainability?

Tammy Hu:

I think what we do we have first is really about getting people to see and feel about the environmental harm that we do and also some social issues that we heard about it. We saw that on TV but we never see it and feel it. So there's also a once you see it, you cannot undo it. So that's how we design I get people to see and feel. And second, use that empathy and compassion. I get people to see and feel and second, use that empathy and compassion to drive the possibilities. Once they have the feelings, it touches their heart. I try to bring that link and bridge back to their work and supporting them to build that team.

Adrian de Courcey :

You do it through practical action, the beach cleanups and so on. So you're connecting people with the environmental damage. They're seeing the impact of pollution at first hand and that then drives the change. So I think Domi is very much an action-orientated organisation, which is really inspiring actually, and I know that you have a number of very innovative programs. Can you tell our audience a little more about the Minus Plus program?

Tammy Hu:

Sure, after they have this compassion and linking to work. Actually what we do is to collaborate with them to work out a business model that is related to their operation so that it can be embedded in their culture, at the same time provide solutions to change the social, environmental issues. So the Minus Plus model is the whole concept and principle behind it is that we all have the power to change something that we wanted to see, that we all have the power to change something that we wanted to see. So it's about first we can my role in my company, in my team, in my department, in my house, in my home. What can I do? There are things I can do to shift and reduce carbon emission or the burden to the society, so that these things we do can actually lead into some financial saving.

Tammy Hu:

So this is the minus and for plus is that now, with all the savings, what can we do to improve someone else's life, to get them better, to gather, to rally all this financial saving goodwill, to change something, to make that change happen. So this is plus. So using this minus, which is already there, we never pay attention to and it's wasted, but once we have that awareness level. We know how to design it and then using that as a way to rally all the goodwill to change something that in society makes someone else's life better. And the important thing is actually we use this model to invite the customer also be part of making this positive change. This is a positive loop together, yeah in many ways, it's you.

Adrian de Courcey :

You are quantifying the sustainability in terms of the impact it can have, and you're creating this as more of a virtuous circle of benefits, both for the company and the society.

Tammy Hu:

For example, we work very closely with banking industry in Taiwan and their goal is to have the digital banking account open and e-bills. So we leverage that initiative and collaborate with them to actually interact with the people who has the credit card bill, bank account bill to try to tell them that besides the financials I mean financial sort of perks the bank will give it to you, for example, the coffee coupon and all that if you change to e-bills. If you do that, you're actually supporting a family to be different. The bank is willing to put part of the saving from the paper bill to e-bill into this project for helping the families to be different. In Taiwan we're actually dealing with the energy poverty sort of issues so that within this model, the bank will be happy because they're having the money saved. Customer will be happy because they are taking part in the positive societal changes.

Tammy Hu:

Yeah, solving part of the social issue solving and the environment will be good because less carbon produced and also less sending the papers to yeah paper bill to the customers, and then the family will be happy.

Adrian de Courcey :

So it is genuinely win-win because the bank saves on the paper and the admin, which is now all via email to the bank's customers. They save because the financial savings from the bank are passed them back into society in the forms of investment in sustainable programs and so on. That's truly inspiring work. Going back to B-Lab Taiwan, in addition to the banking and financial organizations, are there any other member companies which have particularly inspired you in terms of their sustainability initiatives?

Tammy Hu:

Yes, there are plenty, but maybe I'll give one or two examples. One company has specialized in producing a plastic-free pipe. They have this term CPVC yeah, pipe for high-tech factories. So there is a second generation taking over the company and then soon after he took over the company, he suffered from the industry decline and the staff shortage. So the new CEO realized that I mean for me myself, I don't even want to send my son into the industry, into the company like this. Who should everyone? Who should others? Why do others want to come and send their son to work here?

Tammy Hu:

So he actually started from a very fundamental sort of way, to bring in the B-Corp certification as a way to transfer the company. And then, soon after they transferred all this mechanism in, they started to invent. I mean, have some initiatives such as C-Coin and three days off from work. Meaning like C-Coin is a virtual coin they give to the employee who is taking good initiative on a daily basis. For example, if you're helping an elder lady across the road, they give you a point for that. So once you collect all those points, you can actually have a day off.

Adrian de Courcey :

So they are actually incentivising their team members to to basically be more environmentally conscious or more charitable? In return, they receive financial rewards.

Tammy Hu:

So they started to realize that sustainability or to do good, is daily. It's not just related to you. I have to follow certain rules in work or compliances. It's about how I think, how I act. So Zcoin is one of their good, I guess, inventions. And another thing is they actually started this thing three days off from work, so only work four days a week, which is, I mean, very, very new. Even in Taiwan there's only a handful of companies who does that, and it is especially difficult for industry like that because they have to take turns in the factory. So it's not easy. Like office workers, we can easily take three days off. Normally in Taiwan we work five days and two days off.

Adrian de Courcey :

And, of course, office workers can work from home and there's more hybrid working.

Tammy Hu:

Yeah.

Adrian de Courcey :

That's not possible, so let's understand this in a little more detail. So basically, instead of a normal five-day week, Monday to Friday a worker would just work, say, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, but they would be so productive on those three days that they would do as much work into three days as they would normally do into five uh, yeah, they do four days work rather than five.

Tammy Hu:

They are not extending the hours within that four days, it still stays the same but they're much more productive because they know that they have one more extra day to either spend some time with themselves, with the family, or look after their sick friends or whatever. So it turns out to be extremely effective and good for the company.

Adrian de Courcey :

Company's productivity and performance all improved with this transition.

Tammy Hu:

Yes, yes.

Adrian de Courcey :

I think this is an excellent example, because often when people have changes to their working pattern, such as going from five to four days, it's in office jobs. But this is a factory, this is where you have to deliver. Put to those targets so they you've really seen an increased focus on productivity, you've seen it paying off and again I guess the employees own job satisfaction improved, their well-being improved.

Tammy Hu:

Exactly yes, yes. So I think they're amazing of putting this initiative into practice and it's also in quite a traditional sector.

Adrian de Courcey :

Yeah, this is not an AI company. This is not a cutting-edge AI company. This is a physical plastic production process. Yeah, very traditional. Wow, that's really forward-thinking. Any other companies you'd like to mention?

Tammy Hu:

Yeah, another company which I totally love is called Hazitan. It's a 20-year-old company who is selling all kinds of cleansing products with camellia seed oil. Yeah, and the reason I admire this company is because they actually it's like once you see it, you cannot undo it, you have to take action. So because they want to sell those products, they start to realize that actually the Camilla's Seeds only have a handful of very aged, old farmers who grow there, over 80 years old. So they started to have a contract farming with all the really old farmers.

Tammy Hu:

But once they started doing that, they realized another issue is there's no people taking over this legacy or skill set, no, young generation. It's all gone. So they started to support the farmer, to train the younger generation to have the contract farming. And then, in order to attract the younger generation to do that, they have to deal with the pesticide usage issues, all those land destruction problems, and so the young people come back. But when young people come back, they want to have a life, they don't want to just be a farmer. So they started to build this life, trendy lifestyle, and also the community that was all this fashion vibes that young people, young generation tourists will come. So it's like, starting from one product, they got into the yeah, solving the issue of ageing and solving the issue of the land. Yeah, pollution. And then bringing the young people back to the community.

Adrian de Courcey :

They regenerate the villages because, of course, the danger if you look in countries like Japan or in Italy, where there's a there's a very aged population, you have villages almost dying and closing. It's a smart policy to actually regenerate the village life and ensure it survives for the next generation.

Tammy Hu:

So it's really, really beautiful. To me, there's also open a lot of things that just take you beyond your imagination. I think to me as a business owner, it's not like certain steps. You already imagined that what you can do.

Adrian de Courcey :

In 10 years time, you sell more products, yeah and it's also true sustainability, because it's looking beyond the short-term profit motive into how business can survive and prosper, not just for the next five years or next 10 years, but for the next generation yes, so I think it's a beautiful.

Adrian de Courcey :

It's a beautiful business model I think these examples are deeply inspiring. Going back to Domi, I know one of your new developments is the Adaptive Game Changers Transition Institute. Can you give us an overview of what you're doing with Adaptive Change and where you see it going?

Tammy Hu:

Well, the Adaptive Game Changer Transition Institute was founded in 2020 during the COVID time, and our main purpose is to really support individual and organizations, empower the sustainability professional to build their resilience to really be able to address the adaptive challenges within the company and corporations industry, to be equipped with the skillset about how to close the sustainability gap within the organization, because all the sustainability gap within the organization, because all the sustainability gaps, is the reason why company cannot push further to make the change.

Tammy Hu:

So, from our past experience, me and my partners identified there's three main gaps for companies not able to push any further is about sense-making how do you really make sense to people in the higher management, in a cross-function, and to your team members. Why is sustainability is important to our company, to our specific department, and why does it relate to your individual? So it's about making sense. Otherwise, people see it as a separate, it's a silo job. Yeah, so that's the the, the reason, what I mean sense making. S econd is about how to team up so you have a purpose-driven team members to collaborate together across different functions. Because, as I said, sustainability is it goes all the going to all the function within companies. So people have to see it and really work together towards the goal.

Adrian de Courcey :

The goal they have must be clear and be able to communicate and you're embedding sustainability across the whole company, not just in one silo, Because I think the danger with some sustainability initiatives is that they are seen as PR or greenwashing but they're not necessarily taken seriously by everybody within the company.

Tammy Hu:

Under Adaptive Game Changers, what you want to do is embed it throughout the company's DNA yes, because to me I think for all for a lot of technical solutions it's relatively easier because you just allocate the budget, find the cutting edge technology to solve it or to to implement. But the things which get stuck most of the time is how do you interact with people internally and how to mobilize them to be able to work and willing to work, to offer their capacity, offer their resources together how to get their buy-in, so you adapt them from being skeptical or negative to actually be positive and be advocates for climate change.

Tammy Hu:

Yeah, and I also believe that necessity is more compelling than urgency or compliances, because once you have that feeling, you start to care naturally.

Adrian de Courcey :

Y ou put yourself into that and also when you bring it down to the human level, actually people see the impact they themselves have on the environment, yes, and how they, with the company, can make even a small impact does actually still make a difference.

Tammy Hu:

Yeah, so that I think the drive will be from just performance to really. I want you to see the result happen to, to think beyond just the growth. So it is about their choice. It's not like I don't have a choice. I'm compelled to getting this because right now most of the sustainability mindset is about getting the sales or getting the award, getting all this reputation. But truly it has to come internally. You have to think strategically how to, yeah, how to let this become the competitive age and also embed it into culture so people really feel and see it and making smart decision every day, yeah and also it's about by by doing them in partnership.

Adrian de Courcey :

People don't feel that it's forced upon them, you co-opt them. So actually the change doesn't so much come from the top or the CEO level, but the change is actually brought in at every level yeah and bottom up yeah.

Tammy Hu:

So I guess that just unlock, yeah. Once we unlock that, yeah, all the passion is coming out.

Adrian de Courcey :

One of the famous examples in business leadership is with Toyota, Toyota famously spend a lot of time building consensus for their decision making. So instead of the way, in maybe some American or Western automakers, where the decisions come from the leadership and the board, with Toyota there's much more discussion within the group and even at the lower levels. So although it may take longer for Toyota to make a decision, because everybody has bought in and they understand why the company is doing such an action, you actually get much greater momentum when the action is taken.

Tammy Hu:

Yeah, and in that way people started to really tackling the fundamental issues, because they see the need and, yeah, they're not pushed.

Adrian de Courcey :

It's coming from within. It's now over 10 years actually since you founded B Lab Taiwan and Domi, and how do you feel attitudes towards climate change in Taiwan have evolved over the past 10 years?

Tammy Hu:

Well, I would say, from never heard, or heard a little to the trend of pursuing net zero. So it's more international, or companies now have a mandate for it and the listed companies? They're just getting stricter and stricter compliances from the government. Here I mean, starting from this year, the January 1st, the government is starting to implement a well carbon tax, which is a long-delayed carbon tax that will put the tax into certain industry listed companies.

Adrian de Courcey :

The carbon tax is interesting because obviously in many western countries there's a huge debate over carbon taxes. And how do people feel about the carbon tax in Taiwan? Is it popular among the business community? Is it popular among the ordinary population? What are the general sentiments towards it?

Tammy Hu:

Well, since now it's just the listed company and fuel industry, they're just fighting against it very hotly not to have it. So they still see it as a burden, not as a way of our responsibility. If I have to pay that, how do I make my business even more stronger? So I guess it's the same.

Adrian de Courcey :

But it's also a driver to make the businesses more efficient, more sustainable, to build for the future.

Tammy Hu:

Yeah, yeah. It's just that still very little companies see it that way.

Adrian de Courcey :

Let's hope it changes. How would you compare Taiwan's approach to climate change and climate action with other Asian nations such as Japan, south Korea or the Philippines?

Tammy Hu:

Well, I have some experience in Japan and in Thailand so I guess I can say something about my understanding. I think Taiwan, especially over the last two, three years, become really aggressive. So one is because of the policy and second because Taiwan are doing a lot of OEM work for international market. So they seriously got pressure from the brand, from the supplier. So, starting from the listed company, now expanded to certain SME who has the exporting sort of market. So their attitude is I have to get things done so that I have the sales. So the mindset is like that in government side In Japan.

Tammy Hu:

I think how I feel is still very sort of suggestive so that these are the good things you should do, but probably not yet as a way policy or compliance driven sort of. So I don't feel that much strong the pressure yet. And I think in Thailand I feel it's actually stronger sort of pressure and feelings for the companies there. I assume because of the sort of internationalized competition and then global headquarters over there. So I can sense the the pressure and the aggressiveness is stronger than Taiwan.

Adrian de Courcey :

I would guess also because in Taiwan and Thailand there is a lot of work done for OEMs and Samsung, Apple and so on.

Adrian de Courcey :

Y es, they are driving the actual ESG policies, which then, through the supply chain, are passed down from the listed entities to smaller SMEs and so on. But still, Taiwan, I would say, is one of the leaders, because even taking steps towards a carbon tax and climate action is very forward-thinking. There are many governments that remain climate deniers, I mean so even today, President Trump signed an executive order taking the US out of the Paris climate change. So actually Taiwan, amongst all nations, I would say, is a genuine leader. Here's an interesting question for you - looking into the future, if you were appointed Taiwan's environment minister for just one day, one day only, what is the one action or one policy you would introduce, and why?

Tammy Hu:

Well, it's a very interesting question. I actually thought about it before, I guess. For me, it's about having the mandate for companies, SMEs, everyone to communicate to your customers and employees for their purpose and responsibility, so they understand the relevance to the business for their purpose and responsibility. So they understand the relevance to the business, their own externality, their own responsibility. They are very clear about it. And second is they understand what and who are they impacting on a daily basis as we operate our business, and then how they are compliant to make it into their business model so it can last, so that if I'm there for a day, I want to have this, making sure that they're designing their business model according to it, so that impact can last.

Adrian de Courcey :

So you would see it bringing ESG to the forefront of the actual business planning process for all companies, so even the 7-Eleven store on the corner, even the type of service businesses as well.

Tammy Hu:

Exactly Because, as one of my clients, we actually train them. We provide this leadership training not to the executive team, but to the store manager, to the store employee, because they are the ones that are actually representing your brand on a daily basis to customers. If you only give them a script to remember, they're just like with no heart, with no feeling to it at all. So it's about how to engage them to understand why does it matter as a society member, why does it matter to my company, and how can I play a role in changing that, in linking that.

Adrian de Courcey :

So once they have this picture clear, then they will put their self into it, they put their heart into it and really communicate so that people feel it and it's a mix as well of the strategy in the business planning but also the emotion. By emotionally connecting with them you actually are able to change their mind and show them the need to be more careful in what they do, be more sustainable in their actions.

Tammy Hu:

Yes, and it has to link with the industry, their business, own personality, because only if it's clear and they're trying ways to solve it, then it can make change. It's not just marketing I have a way to say the beautiful words to communicate with my customer it's about addressing their own externalities so that their frontline employee understand, put their mind and heart into solving it also.

Adrian de Courcey :

You are a co-founder and you co-founded B Lab Taiwan and Domi, with your husband Corey. This is interesting. It's a true partnership. So how do you and your husband navigate the dynamics of being both life and business partners?

Tammy Hu:

Well, I guess certain rules we mutually agree to it, respect for it. We focus on issue but not each other. So we are very aware of when we're talking or debating certain things. We're debating on the issue alone, but not pointing at each other's attitude or anything. Yeah, we are business partners and second, I guess I mean for us, we spend, we remind each other we I'm your best partner in life, in work, so treat me well. So we do that on a very, very frequent, constant pace. And I think that's important because very, very often you just take things granted, you lose that respect in conversation, you lose that gratefulness for each other. By having the mutual respect of each other's opinions and by by keeping the the business discussions to business and then the personal discussions to personal, you're able to segregate and and keep the matters separated.

Tammy Hu:

But one thing people say don't take work back home. I just don't, I just don't find that possible. It's just not possible. We're talking about our work all the yeah, all the time. So my, my kids, my kids are always saying that I don't want you to sitting together, because the moment you sit down together, you guys were talking about society issues, what you want to do with, yeah, globally, and all that.

Adrian de Courcey :

It's a great insight for your kids into sustainability. As a busy social entrepreneur and the mum of three young kids, how do you manage to strike a work-life balance? Are there any tips you could share with our listeners?

Tammy Hu:

Well, I try not to manage. Actually, what I do is I truly let my kids into my, my life, my job, how I think, how I react, how I behave. So they are like my elderly, who is 14 right now. She's been homeschooling for two years and that two years was the best time, I think. I believe because she was sitting next to me most of the time, I mean doing her work, at the same time trying to understand. So they know how tough it is to get anything done in any industry, in any work. And second is, why do I fight for this and how much I'm willing to invest myself into that? So they get the firsthand feelings for it.

Tammy Hu:

And the second, I guess my biggest gift is that along those past 10 years, my kids are really gifted with compassion, caring for others and willing to take on challenges.

Tammy Hu:

Because I'm sending them to all this kind of different challenges all the time, they're like wow, yeah, nothing is the same on a daily basis. So, and I'll also show them I mean lead by example so I actually lead, taking leadership to show them if you want things to change, to happen, you should put yourself into it first. So I guess all those components really play important. If you want things to change to happen, you should put yourself into it first. So I guess all those components really play important parts in shaping my kids and I think that's my biggest gift that they have this heart and compassion to caring for the social, environmental sort of problems. And down the road, either they want to be an entrepreneur or work in companies. They know this is an important sector because a lot of times when I do a coaching to a company online, at the end of the session, when I turn off the computer, my kids will be asking me why do you teach them this, unless they're supposed to get it in junior or elementary school, something like that?

Tammy Hu:

Your kids are very advanced yeah how can you grow up still learning this? That's supposed to be, yeah. So I guess what I do. I hope in 10 years time or less, all this non-shifting right now I'm doing will become known.

Adrian de Courcey :

And there's a possibility that your kids can carry this on into the future as well, so as your legacy maybe?

Tammy Hu:

Well, they always joke about they want to inherit my company and then turn it into whatever and all that. I'm like, oh my God, people having succession issues I'm still. I'm running mind. My kids are already thinking about how to take it further. So it is fun.

Adrian de Courcey :

You can be a very proud mom of them.

Tammy Hu:

Yeah, it just. It's fun and great to look at them grow to where they are today.

Adrian de Courcey :

You often speak about creating a purpose-driven life. How would you advise someone listening today to find their own purpose in life?

Tammy Hu:

Taking me as an example, I think from my role, who I am as a mother, as a wife, as a leader in my company, in society and as a teammate and also as a follower. So I think once, for me it's about having this role laid out and it's all intertwined. A lot of relationships are intertwined. So once I sort out all this line, what do I want to put in there? What do I want to contribute? Because we only have this certain hours of the time a day? How do I want to spend that quality time with people I love? And I wanted to contribute my quality time to really see something different happen.

Tammy Hu:

So I guess that's how I get myself into find my purpose in life and, and very often I use this, this so the framework, to support young people or young parents to find their balance, their purpose. And it's not easy because we were not educated or grew up to find our own pathway. We're educated to follow the business track, to become a doctor or lawyer. So people to the age of to the age of 50, like my age, they still don't know what they want.

Adrian de Courcey :

They know that they spend a whole life pursuing a career that make a lot of money, but besides that, yeah, it's also difficult because people will go into what's seen as being respectable professions so being an accountant, for example, and a career in finance or in law. But you've done something very different and you've actually felt your genuine passions. That's inspiring. You've actually followed your genuine passions. That's inspiring. But I think it's good for our listeners to see how your own journey of life was really following your own interests. So you, you know you started off in banking and you probably never considered when you were in ABN AMRO and were in London that many years later you'll be lecturing Taiwanese multinationals on their sustainability. So it's more, would you say, about just following your natural instincts, learning what your strengths and weaknesses are and taking risks to find that path.

Tammy Hu:

Yes.

Adrian de Courcey :

Looking forward to the future, climate change is at a difficult stage the European Union's Climate Change Service confirmed that last year 2024, was the warmest year in recorded history, with global temperatures surpassing the 1.5 degree threshold for the first time. There's increasing evidence of climate change's impact on the environment. Just last week, there was the Californian wildfires. In the summer, last year, the wildfires in Greece and Southern Europe, for example. But with the election of leaders like Donald Trump, with America now leaving the Paris climate change agreement, how do you stay positive when there's, at the moment, a lot of negativity around climate change action? Well, at the moment, a lot of negativity around climate change action.

Tammy Hu:

Well, my belief is I'm not doing it for the next generation, I'm doing it for my generation. Even though the world is like that, there's responsibility of mine that I needed to take and there are circles I can influence and people have to. I mean I have to. I mean I have to see it, people have to see it, and to me it's like all the future is not for the kids. It's not their, in their capacity to repair anything. It is it. It truly is our responsibility.

Tammy Hu:

And I remember in one of Obama's speech he was saying that we are the first generation to feel the impact of climate change and the last generation to do something about it. Yeah, it's so true. So that really keeps me going. And then I'm always saying that I'm lighting up the fire really keeps me going. And then, trying to, I'm always saying that I'm lighting up the fire within individuals and within the organization and trying to keep that flame alive and hang, holding them to make sure that they are not dying, but still keep the flame going. So my, I guess my responsibility to it it's not for kids, it's for our own generation. Just keep me going. Yeah, stay positive.

Adrian de Courcey :

t is incredibly disturbing that we see the horrific impact of climate change every day and people are dying.

Tammy Hu:

It's crazy, yeah.

Adrian de Courcey :

You've achieved a huge amount over the past 10 years since co-founding B-Lab Taiwan and Domi. Where would you like to see these organizations go in the next 10 years? What's your vision until 2035?

Tammy Hu:

Well, I think, both for Domi and B Lab Taiwan, I want to see what we are, the shift we're driving now, really becomes known so that every company using their business as force for good to really be part of some social, environmental change. Also companies unleashing all the potential and power within the organization so that all the employees can be part of the solution, part of the problem-solving process and people become happier and balanced for their life and their job, because I always say that we will look at the job alone. Once you're a manager, you only have the hat of a general manager. You make decisions a certain way. No one ever reminded you that you actually are a father. So once you have the second hat on as a father, as a son, as a community member, I'm sure they will make different decisions, they will take more perspective into consideration, not just profit. So I think for me, I want to see people starting to really reconnect with their humanity, to really feel comfortable and confident, to have different hat in business world and then, yeah, just be unite within as one.

Adrian de Courcey :

For it to move up the political agenda from the main issue, tell me what are the two or three simple actions which any citizen can take to reduce their environmental impact. What would you recommend?

Tammy Hu:

Really start a conscious sort of lifestyle, be aware to produce less food than plastic waste I think that's one of the simplest things to do and start to have awareness of how our convenient life do harm to all the rest of the environment, the old lives, and stop it. Yeah, and that's also our minus plus model means minus means once you're aware of things that you shouldn't do, stop it.

Adrian de Courcey :

Plus means do something positive and bring the seed to people so that people start taking small steps and then change will be faster so really about primarily awareness, so people becoming more aware of their impact on the environment and of the cost of convenience, the cost of using too much plastic and so on, and then, once becoming aware, taking action so maybe not buying as much plastic, more focus on recycling.

Tammy Hu:

Yeah, I think being aware and bringing out a conscious level is the key.

Adrian de Courcey :

So I have two final questions for you. We have many international listeners from outside Taiwan and many people who've never been to Taiwan but are keen to learn about the country, and Taiwan is very famous for food. So tell me number one what is your favorite place or must-see destination in Taiwan, and why?

Tammy Hu:

Well, the must-see has to go to my hometown, which is Kaohsiung, where people from the south are very, very warm, friendly, willing to share everything with you. So, besides Taipei, our capital city, the southern part of Taiwan is the must-go place, and my favorite place will be up in the mountain, the places I go very, very often in Yilan, up in the mountain, not very high like 1,700 meters, 1,000 meters, something like that, but it's beautiful, it's quiet, I just feel connected to the yeah, to the nature, yeah, and also, wow, there's a lot of hot spring places in Taiwan. That is a must-go. We can easily access to hot spring in Taipei, 30 minutes drive, and there are plenty of different type of Hot Springs in the East Coast also.

Adrian de Courcey :

I very much look forward to trying the Hot Springs and going into the mountains. Do you have a favorite restaurant in Taiwan, and which restaurant and why?

Tammy Hu:

I wouldn't call it a restaurant. Well, I do have a few in mind. Those are very, very small sort of shops back in Kaohsiung. All of them are over 50, 60 years old, second or third generation taking over selling all the street food. Like my favorite place, one of the papaya milk place, where I definitely have to send you the list, the address for it, definitely.

Adrian de Courcey :

Yeah, I look forward to it, and we should include that on the podcast as well in the edit.

Tammy Hu:

Oh, yeah, yeah. It's all like very, very 50 and still vibrating. So I mean very, yeah, nice vibes and all that. And the second generation of young people who study abroad came back trying to innovate but still keeping that old feeling, style, taste the same.

Adrian de Courcey :

Taiwan is very famous for the street food, so that's a must see. Thank you so much for being with us here today, Tammy. I think it's been wonderful for you to give us an overview of your work and the climate change initiatives and a little about the what Taiwan is doing in this area.

Tammy Hu:

It's a very nice chat today and share about my story and my journey. Thank you.