Co-dependency with Dama

In this episode of It’s a Guy Thing, I sit down with my friend Dama for an honest conversation about co-dependency — what it looks like, how it shows up in relationships, and why it can be so hard to recognize when you’re in it.

We talk about attachment, emotional reliance, losing yourself in someone else, and the journey of learning how to love without abandoning yourself. This episode is for anyone who has ever confused intensity with intimacy, stayed too long out of fear, or struggled to find balance between loving someone and choosing themselves.

Together, we unpack the healing, awareness, and self-work it takes to build healthier connections — with others and with yourself.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Okay, are you ready?

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Yes, I'm ready. Yay!

SPEAKER_03 0:03

Hi guys, I'm Jules, and I have a really special guest here. So two-minute rundown who you are, how you know me, how we met.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Okay. I love this. So my name is Dama. I met Julian at the gym. He was, I I want to say that he was doing a hack squat press. And I like, no, I'm pretty sure that this is it. And so, like, keep in mind, like as a girl, like I get it, like people will say, like, oh, men are terrible. Like, they all they do is stare at asses at the girl. Like, I'm so sorry, but I'm just as bad as men. Like, when I see a girl with a nice ass, like I'm gonna stare and appreciate it. Oh, me too. Because it's like, yeah, girl, you did that. And so Julian was doing these squats, and I was like in the corner of my eye, like, damn, that guy has a fat ass. Like, I was like, I need to say something. And I feel like that's like the first thing that I feel like. You're right. Yeah, I remember now. Yeah, you're like, yeah, like you objective to me. I'm like, yeah, I did, but you look so good. And I remember I don't mind. Right? And we were like in between breaks, and I think I was like on the leg press next to you, and then like you look back, and I just like, hey, I need to just tell you something. Your ass is insane.

SPEAKER_03 1:03

You know what? Now that you mention it, I do remember because it was a Thursday. Yeah, and Thursdays I go to the gym in the mornings, yeah, and they're my leg days. Thursdays are my leg days. Yeah, yeah. And you know what? I remember now because I was thinking, I was like, when was the first time we ever talked? I remember.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

It was like a year ago. I want to say it was last summer-ish, like around that time. Yeah. And then yeah, and we exchanged numbers or Instagram, I think, and then later on we exchanged numbers. And I just feel like throughout like the our interactions at the gym, we would have really good conversations. Like I just felt like every time I spoke to you, like the convo wouldn't just be like five minutes, it would like extend. Oh, yeah. But it was it was so nice because it like we had such similar mindsets and like our perspectives on growth and on life, and I really I really enjoyed that like having those conversations with you, and yeah, that's kind of like where we're at.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

Well, there was like two scenarios that I remember. One where you were at the gym and you were just distraught. Yes, I just I remember specifically you were on the stairmaster, and I can just not only like sense it in your energy from a distance, but I knew that like a friend just needs a hug.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

Yeah, you know, yeah, and you know what? That it I honestly feel like that moment became such a core memory of mine because like I literally was just kind of keeping my head down on the stairmaster, but I could feel like I could like I don't know, I just like I wanted to cry, and then when I came off the stairmaster and you just hugged me, I was like, that was everything, like truly, like that that to me was like the whole like definition of like to be love this to be seen. Because I in my head I thought nobody's paying attention to me. Oh, yeah, and so for you to do that, that that meant a lot, and like I think even after that moment, like you like became more ingrained in like my life as like a per a person who I can trust with like myself, right?

SPEAKER_03 2:48

Because sometimes I don't need to be told added information, yeah. Sometimes I just need physical affirmation, yeah. Sometimes a hug is enough. 1000% because some like and times of when I'm processing something, yeah, I don't necessarily want to hear the opinions of others, you know. That's why I always ask, like, what do you need from me? Yeah, you know, and so I knew at that moment what you needed. Yeah, and I remember another time is when I was upset about something, yeah, and I remember it was I was doing like some free weights, like I was doing like biceps, I think. I remember, and this was like winter time when I was at the time dating my boyfriend. I remember, I remember and I was just so upset about something, and you were there for me. Yeah, that's a core memory of mine. Really? Yeah, just because I knew you would be someone that was uplifting and encouraging and very um empathetic with knowing how to manage and operate through struggles.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Yeah, I remember you hugging, I remember hugging you, and I I feel like with us, like we're so like in tune with our with our emotions. I just I don't know each time that I've hugged you, we've always just cried. And I'm like, I'm sure like to other people, like, what are they doing? Like, what are they doing? Hugging and crying at the gym. It's like you don't get it. This is therapy where I was like, child, you don't do your like press, like we're gonna be here hugging.

SPEAKER_03 4:13

Yeah, for sure. You don't really see that often.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

You don't, honestly. I think I think a lot of the time people nowadays just forget that we're human, like we get so in focus in like our day-to-day things, and we just forget like sometimes a hug is all someone needs, or even just a smile, and like you know, just offering that to somebody, like it literally costs you nothing at all to just be nice.

SPEAKER_03 4:34

And just think about like how many other people are going every day at the gym, yeah, but knowing how like all the shit that they're going through. And we would never know.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

Literally, I think about that all the time. Because you go to the gym and I I mean I don't know like for your experience, but for me, I go at different times, but surprisingly I see the same people. Like I could go in the morning, same people. I could go like at 7 p.m. on a random Thursday, same people, same people, and it's you know, and it's it's like it gets to a point where where you're just like kind of curious about like oh what's going on in your life, because like I see you often, but like I don't know anything about you, but like you're in my life to an extent, you know. And yeah, I get that. We're all just like living our own complex lives, and that's a crazy part about life.

SPEAKER_03 5:15

Yeah. I've also noticed this, like, and this is just me really being really observant. Yeah, whenever I'm like in a very high tense state of mind, yeah, my workouts become very extreme. Like what I mean by that is like if you ever like find me like running at like a very abnormal pace, yeah, I need to blow off a lot of steam. Yeah, yeah, you know, I'm not just doing it just because I feel fat.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

Yeah, it's not a body dysmorphant thing you're nice to wear.

SPEAKER_03 5:47

Yeah, it is. Sometimes I feel fat, and so I'm like, but but I've noticed that despite you know doing like an actual generalized weight training, yeah. You there's a difference between weight training and you need to blow off some steam.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

1000%. I actually signed up for um the boxing club over in East Village in downtown, okay specifically for that because I got to a point in my life where I just felt like I kind of had lost my passion for movement, and I was just going to the gym and it almost felt like I was punishing my body, and like I just felt like I wasn't in it. Like my my relationship with my body wasn't like it wasn't getting to a place where I wanted it. It just I feel like I was attacking myself constantly. And so a friend told me, like, maybe you just need to find like a different form of movement. And at that time, my sister and her boyfriend had just joined that gym and they were like hyping it up, like, you're gonna love it. It's like so much fun. Like, you just get all like your aggression on like punching the bag, and I was like, Oh no, no, like I guess I went my first class and I loved it. I was hooked. Like, you just get like I'm not saying like being aggressive is like the answer, but I'm saying like that motion of like just being able to go all out on something and like release any tension and like with no intention to to like change your body or physique, it's just primarily like you and like your feelings and like using that kind of as like motivation, and it also helped to spark my like my passion for movement again. And I feel like now I'm kind of like approaching the gym and exercise from a more holistic perspective instead of just like I don't like this, I'm gonna do this to change that, or like it's not much of like a a fix it, it's more of like a this is adding value to my life in this way, right?

SPEAKER_03 7:19

Yeah, so I want to talk about codependency, yes, because I was trying to figure out like who the best person to talk to about this, yeah. And I feel like you're really wise, and you're really gracious, thank you, and I feel like you have some experience too on codependency. And so pretty much I just wanted to just pick your brain on what you feel like codependency is for you, what your experience has been on codependency, how you have found solutions, because at least for a man we depend on a lot.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:05

Like we in some aspects, healthy ways of you know, finding hobbies like the gym, finding, you know, going to um watch like the sunset or going for a walk or um playing an instrument are like healthy ways to cope through something. But I feel like a lot of men have a tendency of codepending on things that are satisfactory, like drugs or girls, or the idea of um attention. Yeah, or validation. Yeah. I feel like val seeking validation is a huge codependency. Um, you know, women or men look towards like pornography, yeah. You know, so there's so much that I feel like a lot of us men have a tendency of codepending, and we we find it very harmless. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because we're just like, okay, well, it's helping me, but like it's just like a band-aid.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

Yeah, exactly. For like a deeper wound. Mm-hmm. Well, I think for me, the way that I've experienced codependency was being codependent on a person. And to me, when you are codependent, it's sort of like you're giving up a piece of your identity. At least that's how I was when it manifested in my life. It was with my first boyfriend ever. I I wasn't like crazy young going into that relationship. I was around 18, going on 19. But at that time, like looking back on it now, I recognize like those were my formative years. Like I had just come out of high school, it was in my freshman year at college. I was still like trying to navigate like who am I as a person and and what are my values, my beliefs. And I jumped into this long-term relationship really early on. And you know, this individual was also in his formative years. He was 21 at the time. Again, like I'm sure like for men, that's probably like the equivalent of like our 18-year-old. Cause and so he was also trying to figure out who he was as a person and so forth. And along the way, we kind of just like lost our ability to trust ourselves. And for me, that's what codependency looked like. I no longer felt comfortable or safe doing things by myself. I needed to do things with the company of him always. And it wasn't even like a he was controlling me type of thing, but I just I hadn't learned how to trust myself. I hadn't gone through those because I do think it's important, especially as a girl, that you go through a period of just singlehood. Even if that is like in college or if you just like live alone or something, but you need to go through a moment in your life where you're by yourself because you're kind of forced to see what you're capable of and you're forced to see like what your skills are and like where you need to grow as a person. I didn't have that, I didn't give myself that time. Like, as soon as I graduated high school, I went straight into like a long-term relationship, and I never got to experience like that singlehood for myself and you know, explore who I was as a person outside of school, or like not because I was still in school, but like outside of like the typical like standard school. And so that's what that looked like for me. I gave up my identity, I I lost a lot of my motivation for life. I prior to that relationship, I was very on like the go, go, go mode. Like I knew what I wanted out of college, what I wanted to be when I got older and so forth, like my career. And then that just that relationship really derailed me because now my focus focus was this other individual, and I started prioritizing their needs over my own. And at that time, I didn't even notice that I was doing it. And my in my head, I thought I was just being a nurturing girlfriend. Looking back on it, now I just realized like I had made this individual my entire identity. Like he was in a place where he needed a bit more help than most people to like just develop as a person because like of just his upbringing, he and I'm not saying this like for every man across the board, like who grows up in like a single parent household, but that's what it was for him. He was he had grown up in a single parent household with no with like no dad. So he lacked that male figure in his life, and he needed a lot of direction in life because he also didn't go to any schools where they were encouraged to pursue higher education and he didn't really know what he wanted out of life. So to me, in my head, I made sort of like him my identity and like me helping him my identity, and uh and I became very codependent in that process because then I just I couldn't do anything without him because I just felt like this was like it sounds so weird to say, but like this was like my comfort person, like this was like like the person who I needed around constantly to like be able to do my own things, right?

SPEAKER_03 12:24

Yeah, I definitely feel like planning your entire life around your partner is a huge one, yeah, because it's happened to me before, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it it's like categorized as like one of the characteristics of being codependent. I know for me, like I've planned all of my days, all of my schedules, all of my hours around my partner, yeah, and they wouldn't do the same, yeah, and that's how you know, oh, I have some sort of codependency on them because they're still going their everyday life.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:59

Not to say that they're neglecting you, but they have a more of a balance than you do. If you don't catch it in time, it becomes very detrimental to the relationship.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

It does, one thousand percent. And I think like for me in that relationship, he was also very codependent on me. So, like, luckily you had somebody who could kind of like keep like a check on you, like a checks and balance. Whereas for me, we both just became so codependent on one another. I don't I don't think that we ever spent a day apart like our entire relationship. Maybe like the most days we've stayed we stayed apart was maybe like two, and even that was like we would still FaceTime every night and like fall asleep with like FaceTime calls or like you know throughout the day, just because it was like you got so used to this person being around all the time and like again that codependency and and not really putting any of like your own desires into play or into consideration.

SPEAKER_03 13:47

Right. Another example that it shows on here that I found really significant, yeah, um, was you don't trust your own judgment and you need a lot of reassurance. Reassurance is huge. Um seeking reassurance might extend outside of the relationship to into work, friends, family, etc. Yeah. I think that there is obviously a very healthy um form of needing reassurance, but I feel like it starts to get a little hazy when your reassurance is coming from a place of like I can't function if you're not giving me it. And I think that's something that I, you know, used to mistake in my relationship because of course my number one love language is words of affirmation. Yeah, like I need words of affirmation, I need that reassurance. I also started to confuse giving myself self-affirmation. There were certain things that like I needed to be secure with myself before I can get it from anybody else.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:03

And I think when you're secure in yourself, that words of affirmation come very easily. Yeah, you know?

SPEAKER_00 15:11

Yeah. And I think that could even play into a little bit of an attachment style. Because I feel like for me, my attachment style, like specifically during that relationship, was anxious attachment. And I feel like that's for that reason my codependency was such an issue for me, was because for me that was my way of getting my like reassurance that like this person was for me and that they love me, that they weren't gonna go anywhere because I just operating from like that fear of abandonment and like not wanting to be sort of thrown off the curb. So in my head, I thought maybe if I just give this person like my all, like my attention, my time, my energy, they'll never want to leave me. And it's that back to that fear of attach of um sorry of abandonment. Um you said something that like also like hit a chord with me, the the um yourself being able to self- what was it?

SPEAKER_03 15:58

Self-re like self-assure yourself.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

Yeah, that to self- yeah, because I feel like that plays kind of in line with with the idea of self-love. Like if you don't have love for yourself, oh yeah, how are you gonna be able to give that to somebody else? You know, and it's the same thing if you don't if you're not secure within yourself, how are you gonna be able to provide somebody else with the security within a relationship or even a friendship or anything, just knowing that you're there for that person if you don't even have the ability to trust yours yourself and your own abilities, and that's to me is important. It's a foundation to entering that secure attachment style and move out of those those toxic traits of codependency, truly, because that's what they are. They they create more harm than good in the long run.

SPEAKER_03 16:37

Right. I'm sure like people are gonna ask, like, okay, well then what's the root of like codependency? Yeah, and of course, I always like to go back to the root of something, yeah, and it always will go back to your childhood. And so as I was like doing some more research, I under I like analyzed like the way that you grew up would cause the way that you were either codependent with someone or not. Yeah, either you were overly protective or you were underly protective, yeah. Overly protective meaning your parents, you know, didn't allow you to do certain things, they restricted so much on you growing up. You weren't allowed to have a phone, you weren't allowed to go out, hang out with friends, you know. And then on the flip side, underly protective, you got to do whatever the hell you wanted to do. Exactly. You know, they didn't care what time you came home, they didn't care who you were hanging out with, they didn't care who you were interacting with, um, or what your grades were like in school, like you didn't have structure. Yeah, and so I think all of those lead to the way that you would cope with things and the things that you depended on with people. If you didn't have, you know, a father figure or a mom to nurture you, you're gonna depend on someone else. Exactly. You're gonna cling on to that person, yeah. And sometimes it's more of like that mother figure, you know, but sometimes it's with not good people.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

Yeah, I agree. And I I I think that's so interesting because you're so right, because as children, like our parents are like the ones who are there to protect us. So to have parents who who maybe don't play their role in the way that they're supposed to, it does as we get older. I feel like that's where you hear that narrative of like mommy issues or like daddy issues, because you're you are on a quest to sort of look for that figure in your life and like you're seeking that nurturing. And I you're right. Yeah, I I can definitely see the relation between codependency and that because once you find that person who who's gonna be your quote unquote daddy or your quote unquote mommy in like a non-sexual way, but I mean like providing you with that figure, it's it's very easy to to want to do anything to keep them around. And I and again that goes back to like releasing your own values and not standing in your power and and doing what it takes to keep them from leaving because now you finally found somebody filled this role that you you were missing your entire upbringing, and that's kind of like a callback to your inner child and and giving them what they need. When I feel like in truth is kind of just recognizing that that I've noticed that as we get older and we're on this path towards healing, we end up becoming the person that our inner child lacked, and so I feel like that's part of the process of moving out of codependency is recognizing that that you have the ability to self-soothe. And yes, you may not have had a mom or a dad in your life to give you that that structure and that protection, but knowing that as you get older, you're given the ability, you will be able to get the ability to provide that for yourself.

SPEAKER_03 19:28

I know you had mentioned attachment styles. Yeah, I feel like we can do a whole episode on attachment styles, yeah. But just briefly discussing attachment styles because I don't I know we've discussed it through text, yeah, and how like I know for myself I have an anxious attachment style. And it's so crazy because I was I I'm reading this book on it's called How to Not Die Alone.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

Oh, I think I think that's a movie or a show. I think it recently got recently got made into a show on Hulu.

SPEAKER_03 19:59

Really?

SPEAKER_00 20:00

Yeah, I'm pretty sure because I saw it, I saw it trending on TikTok where people were like just doing the mo most outrageous things at stores for like to connect with people almost because it's like you don't want to end up alone. Like I don't I didn't watch like the show or anything, but I think that's like the synopsis or like the idea of it.

SPEAKER_03 20:15

Well, it's a book that I found at Barnes and Noble. Okay, and it's about relationships, and the psychologist wrote this book. I don't remember her name, but um it's really cute. It's like uh the front cover has like two toothbrushes.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

Aww.

SPEAKER_03 20:31

I'm like, okay, cool.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

That is cute because that's like let me leave a toothbrush at your house, please. It's funny because I did that with my ex. I did that with me.

SPEAKER_03 20:40

Well, my ex did that with me. He left his. I made him literally the like the first week, I made him bring his toothbrush and I made him leave it there.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

That's cute. No, well, for mine, it's because so we both like were like were living with our parents, and so what I would do was in my bag I had like a toiletry bag because sometimes we'd stay at hotels, so I had to keep both of our toothbrushes in there for us just for whenever. I know it was it was like our version of like uh leave a toothbrush at my house type of thing.

SPEAKER_03 21:05

Yeah. But I just finished reading the chapter about um attachment styles, and they had did this experiment where they had a collective group of mothers with their infant children from like eight months to twelve months. Okay, and so what they did was they put all the moms in one room and they would uh exit the room to see how their child would react. Of course, uh you know, the children would start to cry. Some would wonder where the children like I mean where's where's my mom is? And so they started to realize the anxious uh attachment that babies um would cry.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 21:56

They would be confused where their mom is. When the mom came Back, but they would still cry and they would throw a fit um before they felt comforted. Oh, okay. With the avoidant, they the babies would cry, they would stop crying, the mom would come back, and there was no reaction.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

They're like, okay, cool.

SPEAKER_03 22:17

They're like, okay, cool, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:19

And the secured attachment babies would cry in the beginning, um, stop crying while they were still away, they felt secure. They would come back and they're pretty much like, oh, hi, mom, like type of reaction. Like, oh, like, oh, you're back. Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:38

And it was just so interesting to read that chapter because knowing me, I'm a brat. I'm a brat. I identify as a brat. Self-awareness of a big awareness. Honestly. And so it's not just a trend.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

It's who I am. It was before it was a trend.

SPEAKER_03 22:59

It was before it was brat subway. And I I literally would I put myself in that position, and I was telling myself as I was on the treadmill, I would have done the same exact thing that baby did. My mom would come and I would still throw a temperature and I'm like, go away.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

Like, how dare you leave me? How dare you leave me? Yeah, literally.

SPEAKER_03 23:18

And I started realizing, and of course, they went section by section of why the babies reacted like this. And um, just for me being anxiously attached, I get very fearful of abandonment. I get very fearful of uh someone leaving me.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:38

Avoidant people get very fearful of rejection.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

1000%.

SPEAKER_03 23:41

So they just act like nonchalant.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:43

And secured, well, they're just they're secure in themselves.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:48

They know that everything's gonna be fine. They know that that person's gonna come back.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:54

And the chapter was saying the reason why it's so hard in our day to start dating is because all these dating apps, most of the people are anxiously and avoidant people. And the way that the author was describing it is you'll you won't really find secure people on dating apps because they're snatched real quick. And I'm like, well, damn. No, it's no, it's true.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

And like it's funny that you mentioned that because also I feel like those apps, like specifically Hinge, they're or not just Hinge, like Hinge, Tinder, Bumble. Yeah, they're all truly just kind of feeding into your insecurities. They're they're that simple swipe and everything. Like you kind of get a dopamine where it's like, oh, like somebody likes me. Like, I want it. Like it's you're it's that seeking that validation, and those that's what those apps are doing is they're feeding off of it. And truthfully, it's making dating so much worse. Like, say what people want to say, like, oh no, social media and like was meant to connect people. Yes, at its core, I understand that that's what it's for, but the way that they've been structured in the algorithms and the way that that people just want to play games, it it's ruining truly like dating.

SPEAKER_03 24:58

A mini challenger, because I feel like delete the apps. Yeah, I would say give yourself two weeks, delete the apps. 1000% because the first chapter in that book, yeah, I'm gonna give you the book too. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Sounds good.

SPEAKER_03 25:11

Uh, she talked about how dating apps are ruining ours, like they are our our actual dating society.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

1000%. And it goes, yeah. And it's also kind of instills in your mind, like, oh, why why would I want to like be with this person when I have like 50 people on hinge that are giving me hearts or sending them to you?

SPEAKER_03 25:27

You'll never find content because you like have all these people.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Mm-hmm. Exactly. And I feel like even that might do something to your psyche on a subconscious level, like that could fuel the anxious attachment style. Because in your head you're thinking, well, if I'm thinking this, they're probably thinking the same thing. So they're probably not gonna commit to me either way. And if they're already thinking about leaving, well, I don't want them to leave, and now you're acting out of again that fear of abandonment, and that is probably gonna trigger your triggers of like anxiety, and you're gonna want to seek their validation. And that's just it's a it's a vicious cycle, truthfully.

SPEAKER_03 25:57

I think too, people have become too dependent on these apps, yeah, and we've lost our sense of like just actually talking to someone else. Yeah, I feel like like these digital applications have ruined the excitement of finding true connection organically.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

1000%.

SPEAKER_03 26:18

Because if you've noticed, have you ever had an experience where you've organically you didn't even need your phone at the slightest. Yeah. Where you organically met someone either at the bar or with some friends or at work.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:34

At least for me, like at work, I mean, I see so many people all the time. Yeah, yeah. You know, I don't work in an office.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 26:40

But if you have like access to working in a place in that in a more public environment, yeah, you know, it's so much more fulfilling it is knowing that you found and connected with someone on a more deeper level intimately rather than texting them, hey, how are you? Yeah, or hey, how are you doing? Whatever.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

Yeah, and I feel like I feel like that's what like those apps do is they take away like the vulnerability of life. And like I see that same thing, like that plays out in my in my like field of work as well. Like I am constantly getting different people, and for me, when I'm able to connect with an individual, like that means everything. Like it's it's like those moments where we don't have our phones, we don't have anything, and like we just both happen to be in this moment in time on this earth, and we got to share this experience together, and like that's it. Like, we don't have to exchange numbers or anything. It's just like having that moment of of of vulnerability and just humanness is is comforting, truly.

SPEAKER_03 27:36

Yeah, because it eliminates the complacency of what if they don't look like they do in person from these photos, or what if they don't like me? It's a lot of what ifs.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 27:49

You don't have to worry about that because you literally are they're right in front of you.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

You just met them, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:53

You just met them, you know how they sound, you know how they their mannerisms are, you know what they're about, you know. You can kind of get a quick rundown, exactly, you know?

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 28:04

So that's what I think.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

I agree. I agree with everything on that. But back to the babies, what else happened? That's like got me really curious.

SPEAKER_03 28:12

Well, at that point, they were just explaining the whole like psychological understanding of like why they cried the way they cried, why they reacted the way they reacted. Yeah, and it really got me thinking about obviously it more about myself because anytime a description of anxious attachments described, yeah, I it I just resonate with it. So that's how I know I still have some sort of like anxious attachments that there's still triggers there. That there's still triggers there, and you know, there are certain things that I want to work on myself before really getting into something more serious, yeah. And that's the reason why there's so many like anxious, avoidant people, yeah, and they always seem to find themselves in relationships, like there's always gonna be an anxious or an avoidant or a hybrid, which is like a combination of both.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Yeah, yeah, and so I and I that I think like that example that you said about like the baby, like even after being comforted and like they're still throwing a tantrum. I see that so much in relationships. Like, truthfully, like right now I'm in a state where I I feel like I'm entering my secure attachment style, and I and I know this because now that I that I am dating, it's I'm I've kind of just like detached to a healthy extent where I'm like, I'm not letting this person control if I'm happy or not. It's kind of just like if you want to be in my life, this is what I have to offer. If that's not in alignment with what you want, okay, cool, let me know. And you know, we can both part ways in a quarterly manner, and I'll go find my person, you go find yours. Whereas in the past, I would be very much like very careful with what I'm saying, and I wanted to make sure that I was presenting like the most poshed version of myself that I believed would be appealing to this individual. And even like with my like my like my first ex like when I was 19, even like during moments where I felt like, oh, does he still like me? Does he still love me? Like, does he still want to be with me? Even after he would give me that reassurance, a part of me was like, I need more, like I need a bigger form of reassurance. Like, I don't know what it is, like I just it wasn't enough for me. And like looking back on it now, I just realized like I didn't I wasn't secure within myself to know that I had myself at the end of the day, and I was looking for that security through somebody else. And I feel like that goes kind of like to add to that to that comment that you made earlier that that affects a relationship. And I'm like, yeah, because now you're expecting so much out of one person, and that's not to say that you shouldn't have standards because you should, but what I'm trying to say is that that puts a lot of pressure on that individual because now then they're worried about well, was that enough for her? Was that enough for him? Like, is that am I doing too little? Am I not doing enough? Like, and then they become very anxious too, and then they're then they start questioning their ability to love, and they start questioning if they're being a good enough partner for you, and then that could just spiral into so many other things and like bickering and arguments of and just become a much bigger problem than then it has to be because a lot of this can just be resolved with open communication, just being vulnerable with one another and be like, hey, I struggle with anxious detachment, and like to me, I this is how I need to be made to feel secure in a relationship. I am actively challenging these thoughts, but if you could just assist me in this in this manner whenever you notice I'm flaring up, I would appreciate that. And like likewise, an avoidant. I I don't resonate with avoidance because I'm I don't consider myself an avoidant. I I think I feel too much.

SPEAKER_03 31:27

Um I feel way too much.

SPEAKER_00 31:29

Yeah, so I wouldn't really I wouldn't really know how to how an avoidant would challenge those thoughts. Um maybe they could verbalize, like, hey, I may come across in this way to you, but just know that that I do care and I I will do my best to reassure you when you need to be reassured.

SPEAKER_03 31:43

And one thing I learned about avoidance, they don't they don't want to lose their ability of independence.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

I was about to say that independence huh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:52

They feel like if their independence is in jeopardy, they tend to backwards.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

Retract, yeah. 1000%. And it's so interesting that you that you mentioned that because I was actually having a conversation with my therapist this morning about this, and I was telling her that the other day I was journaling in regards to relationships, and I was trying to figure out if what I wanted in life right now was a relationship because I had I've just like came out of a not a long relationship, it was like a like a four or three month thing, but that relationship really opened my eyes to my emotional availability, and coming out of that, I started to question am I even emotionally available to be with a person, or like do I even want a relationship? And I started to kind of explore like what does a relationship look like? Like, what does a relationship mean to me? Like, what do I associate with a relationship? And I instantly started getting like negative feelings about a relationship, and I started feeling like, well, if I'm in a relationship, I'm giving up my autonomy, I'm giving up my my independence, I'm giving up my dreams, my aspirations, my will, my desire to put myself first. And as I was writing this down, I started realizing like, whoa, this is a limiting belief on itself. Because truthfully, at its core, a relationship is meant to add value into your life. It's not it's not to put to take away from you. And if you believe that that's what a relationship is gonna do to you, it's probably because you're lacking something within you, you're not secure within yourself yet, and you're looking for a relationship to fill a hole that you have.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

And truthfully, if that's where you are in life, I don't think you should be in a relationship. And like because you're gonna do more harm to yourself in the long run, because you're gonna start to develop behavioral and thought patterns that are gonna be harder to break down the line. And so when I started exploring this within myself, I was like, okay, this is interesting. And I started to think back, well, this makes sense because in my first like long-term relationship, I was very codependent on a person who who just I in that process I lost my autonomy and I lost my desire to make my dreams come true. And that's why for me I started to associate relationships as as sort of stripping me of that independence. But weirdly enough, I still wouldn't consider myself an avoidant. I I would say I'm an anxious at I have an anxious attachment style with a tendency to run away. So I'm I think that's what maybe I am a hybrid because when things you know when things get rough, I have like and I'm chat and I'm actively challenging that behavior because I'm not okay with it. I know that it does way more harm in like relationships and good, is that when things start to feel like they're hitting the fan, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna step out. Like I need a minute for myself, or like just I need to isolate just for a little bit because in my head, I'm like, that's when I would, that's what I would do when I was little. Whenever anything got hard, I'd just go to my room and I'd color, I'd play with my toys, and like that brought me comfort. And so that translates into now my adulthood, but I recognize like that's also not and it's like that's not a behavioral pattern that's gonna help me become secure within myself. Like I also need to learn how to communicate and how to be vulnerable with people.

SPEAKER_03 34:45

I love how you mentioned how you recognize when you were a child, yeah, you know, you would go to your room and you would just is isolate yourself. One of the things that I find really interesting, of course, as we're children, it's a little bit more of a um childlike, you know, coping mechanism. But as adults, kind of a lot more messier.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:10

We our coping isn't coloring or just sitting watching TV. It it's extreme.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:17

You know, and I think that's something that should be recognized because it's okay to acknowledge like I've done some pretty crazy things and that I'm not proud of, yeah, and the way that I cope with things isn't the best.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:32

But these are the action plans that I have to change that. You know? Yeah. And I feel like adulthood is just very intense. And I feel like especially with men wanting to compare themselves to other men, yeah. You know, what can I do to be just like him?

SPEAKER_01 35:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:52

Well, you weren't really supposed to be like him. So I find that to be something really significant. Because of course when we're children, we just we don't really see men as harmless. We're like, okay, well, I'm just gonna go to my room then. Like you're annoying.

SPEAKER_00 36:06

No, literally, and I I think that's what I would do. And I'd be like, you know what, I I don't want to be around around like mom and dad, like they're they're getting me in trouble, like I'm just gonna go to my room. And like in my head, I'm like, oh, this is like this is nice, like my room is nice, like I can enjoy my time here. But as an adult, it's like that's not a good thing because you're walking away from problems, and that's leaving your partner alone to handle the things, and that's not fair to them either, because that's not you being a partner, that's just you being immature.

SPEAKER_03 36:31

It's crazy because I feel just analyzing my life, yeah, when I was more of a younger adult, I was a lot more of an avoidant person.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:44

100%. I didn't like to resolve conflict. Yeah. I didn't like to um be in a situation where I felt like my independence was at stake. I loved being alone. I didn't like feeling like I didn't ever want to put myself in a position where I was gonna feel rejected.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:07

And so these are like common things that an avoidant attachment person would do.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

One thousand percent.

SPEAKER_03 37:14

But as I started to really analyze and process and really feel my emotions, yeah, it kind of was like segueing into another side of me that I didn't know, but that still wasn't secure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

You know, I do, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it I think it takes time because both attachment styles are so complex. I want to argue that that well, I think they're both complex on their own, actually. And I feel like that's what's it's it's a lot harder to become secure to have a secure attachment style because a lot of the anxious attachment style qualities are rooted in like lack of self-love, a lack of self-trust, um, an inability to to trust your own judgment. A lot of these things take time to challenge. And you a lot of the times they're they can only really be challenged depending on the type of person you are through evidence. And so if you're somebody who in your life has experienced a lot of moments that have shown you that when you trust your intuition, it leads to bad things, then that affects your ability to trust within yourself. And you kind of just have to wait around for more moments to come where you can challenge that narrative and move into a space of security within yourself. And that takes time, it takes a lot of grace, it takes a lot of trying again over and over because it's important to remember like these behavioral patterns that we have, like to get like a little academic on it, it's it's a science to it. Our brains are the way that they're developed is through neural pathways. These are that's how these patterns are are developed, and as we get older, our brains lose the ability to develop new neural pathways. So to break out of this, these already established pathways, it takes time because one, we have our age playing against us because now our brains aren't able to generate these new pathways at the rate that they used to when we were younger. That's why it's a lot easier to develop a personality or to develop habits when we're younger because our brains are so much more multiple. Whereas as we're older, it it takes a lot of consistency, and I feel like that's really the key is to just be self-aware to know where you need to make those changes and to be consistently challenging any belief or thought pattern that isn't helping you. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, we could do a whole episode on neuroscience, truthfully.

SPEAKER_03 39:32

Literally, my dad would probably love that episode. Yeah, it's my dad's so like into like learning about the brain. My dad's like a total like educational man.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

Yeah, it would be very Dr. Huberman or is that the Huberman lab? It would be very Huberman lab. Oh god. I would be but no, truthfully, because like I don't want to like dismiss like you know the psychology, but I feel like psychology in itself is a science. But like truthfully, like a lot of that plays a role, and I feel like if people were to understand that, like, hey, your brain is also kind of like playing against you almost, and you need to take that into consideration. That's why people tell you, like, you need to be consistent, and it's not gonna be an overnight thing because and it's not just gonna be an overnight thing because it's hard to let go, but it's hard to let go because you're literally rewiring your brain, you're forming a new behavioral pattern and being secure again, it takes so much. You need to learn how to love yourself and the self-love journey. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 40:26

Oh, that's a whole series on its own.

SPEAKER_00 40:28

It's it's truly, it's it's so complex and it's it's so rooted in so many different things. And learning to love yourself is an ongoing journey, like truthfully, because like for me at least, it's manifested like in my body image, it's manifested in like my relationship with food, it's manifested in the way that I move within relationships, the friendships that I keep, that I don't keep, etc. And it's just so complex. And so for that reason, I think it's it's very important that if you do recognize that you're somebody who has a codependency problem, analyze your attachment style and then from there try to analyze like okay, what is the biggest factor that's contributing to this attachment style? Is it a lack of self-trust in myself? Is it a lack of self-love? Is it a lack of of self-judgment? Like, what is it? And at least that's how I've approached my healing, is I've I've noticed like what is causing the biggest dent. And I start challenging there. And at some point, you'll start to notice that everything begins to overlap. But the more that you continue to challenge it, these overlaps become smaller and smaller in the sense that it's it's it starts to take less, it starts to take less effort to make those changes because now you have a a series of events that that shows you that you are capable of change, and that itself is evidence, and it helps you to make quicker changes in those other areas in your life.

SPEAKER_03 41:47

Yeah, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 41:48

Yeah, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 41:49

I love that. Okay, so I like to do what I call the challenger. Okay. I love to challenge people. Yes, the best. So, what is your challenge for men to start today to help themselves recognize codependency and to start changing that today?

SPEAKER_00 42:12

I would say my challenge would be to take a minute and to look at what your relationship is with yourself. How do you view yourself as a person, as an individual, and how does that align with what you want out of a relationship? If you can take a moment to recognize that, hey, I'm somebody who who lacks self-esteem, that's probably gonna lead you to be again that anxious attachment style, and you're gonna become codependent on someone and seeking that validation for like letting them know that you are enough.

SPEAKER_02 42:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 42:44

So taking that time to just sit with yourself, and it's an uncomfortable conversation to have, honestly, because in truth, we don't wanna believe that we're insecure, like nobody wants to be told like you're insecure.

SPEAKER_03 42:54

Everyone's insecure. Exactly. It's so crazy because I have analyzed the people that are the most attractive, yeah, are the most insecure.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Yeah, yeah. And I it's like I'm not saying like I'm one of those people, but I had a conversation with my therapist about this um when I like out of my relationship, and I was telling her, I'm like, Erica, I'm like, you don't get it. I didn't say you don't get it. I think I said it's like it's it's not that I am that I think men suck or that you know that men are terrible, it's not that because I recognize that there's great men out there. I I'm fully aware that I have really good friends who are in an amazing relationship with like 10 out of 10 men. But I told her, I'm like, the thing is that as a person, specifically as a girl, when you are conventionally attractive, the type of men that you tend to attract are men who are very exteriorly driven. They are very lustful, and the way that they will pursue you is in a way that is constantly appealing to your appearance. They will compliment your looks. They will they will make you kind of like they will objectify you in such a way that really puts into question like is that all that I'm good for? My looks? And I and I told her specifically, I'm like, I that's huge. It is, it's huge. And I and I was telling her, I'm like, I have an engineering degree. I'm a software engineer. I I know that I'm a very intellectual person. I'm fully.

SPEAKER_03 44:23

Very well-rounded. Yeah, I know I really it's giving Jack of all traits. No, literally I got the looks. ADHD too.

SPEAKER_00 44:29

Literally, literally.

SPEAKER_03 44:30

I got the degree.

SPEAKER_00 44:31

And she has a little bit of tism for like a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of these other girls. No, literally, literally. And so I was telling her, I'm like, I I know that I have a like a strong academic background. And and for me, I've had moments where I've been talking to men, and we start to get into these intellectual conversations, and I've literally had men stop in the middle of a conversation and be like, Wow, you're actually smart. And like that to me was like, excuse me, like, so were you entertaining me?

SPEAKER_03 44:59

Yeah, I'm not El Woods.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Yeah. No, even smart.

SPEAKER_03 45:02

Even she was smart. So you are El Woods. Yeah, I love you so cute.

SPEAKER_00 45:07

Literally. And in my head, I'm thinking, okay, well, so were you just entertaining me this entire time because you thought I was just like a pretty thing to look at? And now that you know I have like a brain, quote unquote, like you felt the need to verbalize them.

SPEAKER_03 45:20

So their motive was they were entertaining you because they thought you were cute.

SPEAKER_00 45:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:24

And but they didn't they couldn't wrap their minds around actually knowing and acknowledging that you actually had these intellectual qualities, which is why they questioned you.

SPEAKER_01 45:37

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 45:38

I love how you mentioned because you have the looks, yeah, you attract men who also obviously you're gonna attract really gray looking men.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

Sometimes. Then you have like those individuals who are like I'm gonna try and throw shade, but sometimes some people I'm like, sir. I'm like, you must have dated a really pretty girl at some point because she she fed your ego girl.

SPEAKER_03 46:01

Well, some some girls love ugly guys. No, you're not gonna ugly. We're not one of those. We're not one of those. So we can go back over there. And I'm gonna stay around here. I'm gonna stay here. I'm gonna stay here.

SPEAKER_00 46:13

But we're not superficial.

SPEAKER_03 46:15

No, we're not. But it's crazy because I had a conversation with one of my really close friends, and I believe that the reason why men are so fixated on looks is because men don't like to go after uh women or men that have a very strong, well-put together value or worth upon themselves. They like to go for people who are easy. They like to go to um people who are more into looks because they don't have to worry about the brains. They don't have to worry about, oh, I have self-worth, I have self-respect. They like to go people who are a little bit more toxic. Yeah, they like to go to people who are a little bit more insecure.

SPEAKER_01 47:02

Yeah, 1000%.

SPEAKER_03 47:03

It's easier for men to go for women and men who they what because they don't have to work for it.

SPEAKER_00 47:10

Exactly. And it's so interesting that you say that because so there was this TikTok video that I saw on TikTok, but I want to say that it was an excerpt from an actual YouTube video. I don't know what the name of the YouTube video is or like the channel, but you've probably seen these videos. But it's basically like um like a social experiment that gets ran. And this specific experiment was they had a line of girls lined up, like all really beautiful girls, and they had one guy, and it was supposed to be like a live version of Tinder. And so basically, like it was a guy, and all the girls were facing him in a line, and each girl would come up to him and he would basically say, right or left. And he was, you know, swiping his thing, and then this beautiful, like honestly, conventionally, like she was just beautiful, like I like beyond conventionally beautifully. Like I've seen some of these videos, like she was gorgeous, and he literally like stared at her for a second and like and said no. And everybody was like, What the heck? What she was beautiful, like what did you do that for? And and they asked him, it's like, hey, like, we want to go back to that one. Like, why did you say no to her? Like, anybody here would have said yes. And he said, I would have said yes. No, literally, she was amazing, she was beautiful, and he literally said, Oh, it's because I I don't I didn't feel like I was gonna be good enough for. Like, I felt like I would have to work too much to keep her. And literally, when they interviewed her, they she said, Oh, he looked really nice, like I would have given him a shot. And I feel like a lot of that time, and I don't know if it's a gender thing, but I feel like a lot of the time, women, we tend to be very gracious and who we give our time to because a lot of women we operate from a big heart. And a lot of the times when a woman requires a man to step up to the plate and to you know meet her where she needs to be met, they don't want to do it because maybe it it goes on to speak on like who they are as a person, on their value. And I don't even necessarily want to say worth because I feel like at our core, we're all inherently worthy. Like when just to be able to have life means we're worthy of it. And we're that's not it's never really a question about our worth, it's a question about our value. And if you're somebody who who has a low self-esteem, I really feel like that's because you don't know your own value. And if you knew your own value, you would be confident in that and you wouldn't have a low self-esteem issue. And so in those scenarios, it's this individual, this person who was playing this game, he was very clearly insecure because he was going for the girls who he felt like, oh, I don't have to work too hard for them. Like, yeah, I can meet her needs, like this is cool. And that's that's a jerky thing to say because it it goes on to show it's just a projection of where he stands as a person, right?

SPEAKER_03 49:30

You know, if he's not someone it's a more disadvantaged for him than anybody because it just shows how insecure he is. Yeah, he shows that oh, like she has her shit together, I don't. But it also shows like you don't have the confidence enough to even work on yourself that way you can match her energy.

SPEAKER_00 49:47

It's like you have an inability to grow or to grow within a relationship.

SPEAKER_03 49:51

If I was him, I would have said honestly, like, I'll go on a date with you, but just like know that like I'm still trying to figure out where I am at with my confidence, and it is a little intimidating because I feel like you're such a confident woman, yeah, and as a man, like I want to be able to have that confidence. Yeah, and I feel like you said women are really gracious that they feel like that's not an issue for me.

SPEAKER_00 50:12

Yeah, exactly. And also, like just to add on, I don't know if you've if you watch.

SPEAKER_03 50:17

You guys have egos, so they would never do that.

SPEAKER_00 50:18

Yeah, no, I know, and unfortunately, and I think that's like one of the biggest disadvantages is that I don't know if maybe I don't know if it's just the way that men are brought up, but I do feel like that's a bigger problem in like that community is is egos. They're so big, and I and I get it, you know, like on a primitive level, you're kind of trying to show off and like be like, I am like top-notch, like I'm like at the top of the tier of the animal kingdom, and I get it, you know, like lions do that shit when they like when there's two male lions and like I feel like that's how we were designed in a way, in a healthy way, like but like you said, like the whole lion analogy, like meant like they fight for their their main territory, not only in their land, but their territory.

SPEAKER_03 51:01

And like it's crazy to see like those videos on Discovery Channel. I love watching them! Oh my god, I'm gonna be like, ooh, ooh, what's the tea? Like the penguins, the penguins, ooh, yeah. I don't like watching the ones where they like eat the other animals, it makes me sad.

SPEAKER_00 51:16

But like the territory, ooh, yeah, I saw giving the cute one of like a penguin courting another penguin, and he literally like went and like found a pebble and like took this pebble to like this girl penguin and was like that's his form of flowers, yes, and I was like, oh, that's so cute.

SPEAKER_03 51:33

I'll take a pebble at this one. I never got that from.

SPEAKER_00 51:38

No, literally, it was yeah, to add to that, I saw this other girl who posted a video. Yeah, and she was like, She's like, I went with I went from not knowing where I was with this guy to not picking him up from the airport, and he just got back from Seattle and he brought me a crab claw and a crystal. And I'm like, this is just I found this to be such a unique way for him to tell me that he has autism, but I fuck with it. Like, this is cool. And I'm like, that's adorable because like that's him of like saying, like, I like you, like this is me courting you, like I'm a penguin. And I was like, that's adorable.

SPEAKER_03 52:06

You gotta be creative with how you share.

SPEAKER_00 52:08

You really do, you really do. But yeah, I think you know, ego is is a is a big thing that that a lot of men have to keep in check because it it holds you back from finding a relationship that's gonna add value to your life. And I feel like you know, that that's I feel like more men should be striving to to being in a power couple dynamic because when you go into with that mindset, you're recognizing that I'm here looking for a partner, even looking at it like in a from a business perspective. When you have like a business that's a startup and you want to find people who you can collaborate well and work well with and you grow the company together, it's the same with a relationship. You don't have to be perfect going into, you don't have to have A through Z boxes checked, you just have to have a desire to want to grow in a humble heart.

SPEAKER_03 52:51

I find it such a boss move.

SPEAKER_00 52:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:54

And I see two power couples, and everyone in the room knows.

SPEAKER_00 52:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 52:59

Oh, they're on the shit, not to be messed with. They are the shit.

SPEAKER_00 53:03

No, literally.

SPEAKER_03 53:04

I feel like some people at the gym are like that.

SPEAKER_00 53:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 53:07

You see a couple and you just know, like, yeah, they got them. They're that bitch.

SPEAKER_00 53:12

Literally.

SPEAKER_03 53:12

They're they know who they are. Yeah, they know that no one's gonna ask them, are you almost done? Like, no, baby, don't come up to me and ask me that.

SPEAKER_00 53:22

Exactly. No, honestly. And like I think about it, like ASAP and Rihanna, like that to me is like that's a power couple. Like they're on their both, they're on their own individual creative journeys, but you can just see that the way that they hype each other up and and you know, they're adding value to both of their lives. And like, truthfully, I feel like that's where we don't hear anything about them really on social media because they're keeping to themselves, they're grinding.

SPEAKER_03 53:42

That's what makes them a power couple, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 53:44

1000%. They're you don't have to flaunt. Because when you when you know you're secure in your relationship, you don't need to have that just. I mean, keep it I understand people wanting to like share their love with others, but I don't feel like you need to be constantly like, oh, this is like my like my power couple move or whatever. Like, you don't have to be constantly like showing it or whatever. It just people will resonate, people will pick up on that energy when it's there.

SPEAKER_03 54:05

Yeah. I think my challenger for men, my therapist, and this will always stick with me literally till the day I die. She always told me to be gentle on yourself.

SPEAKER_01 54:21

Yes, that's a big one.

SPEAKER_03 54:23

Being gentle, and I've told you this before, I've told you to be gentle on yourself. Yeah, it will I feel like it's the stepping stone and the foundation of actually understanding who you are as a person. Because you're acknowledging, okay, I can't be so hard on myself. Yeah, I need to take a step back.

SPEAKER_01 54:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:45

In a way, become outside of my body and really hone in on what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 54:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:53

When you're gentle with yourself, you force yourself to enter into this rest of like, okay, I'm acknowledging that like what is currently happening isn't obviously not okay.

SPEAKER_01 55:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:08

But I'm gonna accept it for what it is. Exactly. And I'm going to implement change. And I think being gentle on oneself in any scenario is very beneficial because you alleviate the stress, you alleviate the um the heartache, the pain, the um hardship of like what's next. Yeah, and or the need to be perfect, or the perfect exactly so that's my recommendation as for uh someone who is struggling with like codependency is when just being gentle on yourself, yeah, creating an action plan of creating boundaries.

SPEAKER_00 55:54

Yeah, it's a big one. Boundaries are huge.

SPEAKER_03 55:57

I've watched this video on TikTok of a woman um with her son, and they gave this whole scenario, but pretty much the video is about a boundary is someone that you set for yourself that doesn't require the other person to do any actions other than you.

SPEAKER_01 56:18

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 56:18

Boundaries aren't request, exactly. They're something that you implement on yourself 1000% for two people.

SPEAKER_00 56:26

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 56:28

And so that was huge for me because I always found like I felt like boundaries became kind of a trend.

SPEAKER_00 56:34

They did. No, I really do. I feel like as we've gone older, people have realized like oh boundaries is a good thing. Like being a little selfish is important to to being a person, to being an like individual.

SPEAKER_03 56:45

Like if some if two people are having conflict, the first thing they'll say is we'll set boundaries.

SPEAKER_01 56:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:52

Well, that's not what they're really saying. They're what they're really saying is you need to start requesting to do X, Y, and Z.

SPEAKER_01 56:58

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 56:59

Not knowing that a boundary is actually something that requires you to do all the work and they're just sticking to it, yeah. They're sticking to it.

SPEAKER_01 57:08

Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:09

It's a boundary is mainly for you.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 57:12

If you say, Oh, I need to set a boundary, that's you wiring your brain that you need to do something to change a situation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:19

And a lot of the time that they're there to protect your values or to help you stick to your values, and at the end of the day, that's connected to your identity, and that's connected to who you are as a person, your purpose.

SPEAKER_03 57:30

Right. So I I think setting yourself proper boundaries to alleviate this codependency brings a lot more balance, a lot more tranquility in someone's lives.

SPEAKER_00 57:47

Yeah, 1000%.

SPEAKER_03 57:48

Um, and a lot more peace.

SPEAKER_00 57:50

Yeah, I agree. I think just to add to that, to add to like why we should be gentle, like a little reminder, is this is also all of ours first time on earth. You know, this is my first time being 26. This is your first time being 25. Literally, literally, and it's it's a scary part, it's a scary thing. And I feel like at some point, you know, and I've definitely heard this narrative been thrown around like you're like, you're 25, like you should you should know this, man. Like you should be an adult. It's like, dude, this is my first time being 25. Like, what do you mean I should know? Like, just because we believe that just because we're grown ups, that therefore we have like all this emotional ability to regulate, and that we just know what's right and what's you know beneficial to us, but in truth, it's we're all figuring it out as we go. It's our first time on earth, and I think remembering that and just recognizing like you don't need to be mean to yourself. Like, truthfully, the world is already gonna be mean to you at some point. Oh, 100%. Like, yeah, like don't don't add uh that don't add to that negativity by being like you know your biggest critic and in that way, just give yourself grace and be kind to yourself.

unknown 58:53

Right.

SPEAKER_00 58:54

Yeah, I love this episode, it was so good. I know, it's so good.

SPEAKER_03 58:57

I love that. Well, thank you again for the case.

SPEAKER_00 59:00

This was so much fun.

SPEAKER_03 59:01

I know that you're on your own journey with podcasting.

SPEAKER_00 59:06

I am, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:07

How has it been?

SPEAKER_00 59:07

It's been going really well. So my podcast, Can I Be Honest, it's it's primarily focused on unlocking your true potential through vulnerability. And it's primarily targeted for women. I mean, men can listen to it too, but truthfully, a lot of the things that I'm speaking on there is related to women, specifically women operating out of their wounded feminine energy, because I just feel like that's such a common trend nowadays. Is a lot there's a lot of women out there, specifically who are women who are very smart, intelligent, and driven, who are just not having luck in relationships, or who are not, you know, having the most success within like their work dynamic or so forth, because they tend to be individuals who operate out of like people pleasing or they do lack that self-trust within themselves or like that ability to know that they are capable of achieving whatever they'd like. And so that's why my podcast is centered around is learning how to unlock that full potential, whether it be through vulnerability, through self-compassion, by healing your self-love for yourself and so forth. And that's mainly what I've I've been working on. That's been like my creative project. I've been diving deep into that, and I've I already have four or three episodes out. The fourth one's coming out this week, probably on Friday. And I'm enjoying the process. Like it's it's like a therapeutic moment for me too. It's helping me also see where I also need to work on, and and that's something that I was very transparent about in my trailers is recognizing like or letting people know, like, I'm not perfect. I don't have it figured out yet, but I'm trying and I'm moving towards it.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:30

Because as I'm like recording and filming and talking about like my past experiences, yeah, like I've realized too, like I'm still like healing and working on myself, yeah, just like everybody else.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:47

Exactly. And I think that's the thing about healing, is like you're never gonna actually be fully healed because like that would mean that you're perfect, and that's not gonna happen. You know, it's not realistically, that's not gonna happen to us. But I think what healing is, is that you're learning how to cope better with those triggers and you're learning how to navigate them and to not let them control you. Yeah, but yeah, feel free to take a listen if you'd like it's on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:09

Yeah, can I be honest podcasts?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:11

Can I be honest podcast? Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:13

I love that title.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:14

Thank you. Yeah, literally. This is so much fun. I loved it.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:17

And that's the beauty you want to do something that's joyful. Exactly. Because it doesn't feel it feels effortless.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:23

Yeah, it adds purpose to your life, and it yeah, I feel like when it's it's kind when it's in alignment with who you are as a person, you will always just have that energy to want to create and specifically for that project, and it'll just flow.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:34

Yeah. Well, I love that. Thank you. I definitely listened. It's so cute.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:39

Thank you. I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:41

Well, that's it for this episode. I hope you guys enjoyed and we'll see you on the next one.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:47

Bye. Bye.