The Sober Edition: Part 2

Hello and welcome BACK to Hexes and Hoes! SOBER EDITION PART 2 BAYBEEEE!!!!!!!!!! Anyway, this episode was recorded on the summer solstice, yay! We discuss the yearly deipnon, Alma's test out of first circle, and the new book we started for the pod's book club! It's called Paganism: an Introduction to Earth Centered Religions by River and Joyce Higginbotham. So sit down, grab your favorite mocktail, and enjoy!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hello and welcome to Hexes and Hoes. This is going to be. Wait, hold on. I did that wrong. Hello and welcome to Hexes and Hoes. I'm your main hoe Chiara.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

And I'm your side hoe, Alma.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

And we're not going to talk about how many times we tried to do this intro.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

Yay.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

Um, this is a subordination part two. Um, we are not drinking today because we're recording in the morning. And contrary to popular belief, we are not alcoholics and we don't drink in the morning. So I drink that I'm drinking a root beer. And I'm being really good and I'm drinking water. So yay! So the reason we're recording in the morning is because we had a bit of an eventful day yesterday. Yeah. Um, I mean, first things first, I did by test out. Yay! She passed by passed. Yeah. Yeah. Exciting. Um, and then after that, we had our date gone for the new year. Yes. Um that was uh starting at seven and didn't end until 9 30. And then we had to drive half an hour to the house. So we got back here and we're like bedtime. Yeah. Um that's all you're gonna get because we're not gonna triangulate where I live. Exactly. Um and the reason we did the day non now instead of at the new moon, which was last week. Last week, is because we are actually recording on the summer solstice, which is the Hellenic New Year. Yep, yep, yep. So this was the ultimate daep non um for the Hellenic tradition, because it's the yearly daepnon instead of a monthly date non.

SPEAKER_03 1:54

And in that dape non, we made the Zeus Katisios?

SPEAKER_02 2:01

Yes. That sounds sounds right. That sounds somewhat right. Uh uh basically, Zeus of the household. He lives in your pantry. And the walls. He's in the walls. He's in my goddamn stairs. Uh no, it's just it's the Zeus of your property. So you make a little offering jar to him filled with uh staples from your pantry. So like oats, rice. Yeah. It's more metaphorical nowadays. Anyway, yeah, because a lot of the stuff that are staples and our things wouldn't live very well in the jar. Because you keep this jar at least for a month. For at least a month. And so once you put all of your staples, you know, rice, grains, beans, uh, you top it off with a little bit of olive oil because olive oil is a natural preserver. And then you seal it in an airtight jar. And that's very important because if the jar is not airtight, bad things happen. Don't open it inside. Uh-huh. You are supposed to clean them out and redo them every month or a year or so. Yeah. Typically, uh the traditional practice was once a month, but modern capitalism means that uh if you cannot do it every month, yearly will do just fine. Monthly in this economy? I know I can't afford to give away that many beans to I know. Um, and then you just start in the back of your pantry, and it's just kind of his little It's meant to bring prosperity to your house. Make sure that you never run out of your staples. You always have food, you always have It's you telling Zeus this is what I want in my pantry. Yeah. Essentially. Which is why the metaphorical aspect is really important. Because I don't really want a whole lot of split peas. But that's what's at the bottom of my jar. Yeah, I try to do things that like if it wasn't metaphorical, I would be okay with. Um I'm sure I'd find something to do with split peas, but I also don't know how I would end up with split peas because I don't buy them. Someone might just randomly get them to you. Who knows? Someone at worse is like, hey, I have this giant bag of split peas.

SPEAKER_03 4:22

Do you want it?

SPEAKER_01 4:23

If that happens, I'll update y'all.

SPEAKER_03 4:27

And you're just gonna be like, Zeus, no!

SPEAKER_02 4:33

Considering it's the only Zeus in my household now, it wouldn't surprise me if I did end up with just an entire thing of split peas just to be contrary about it.

SPEAKER_03 4:45

Mm-hmm. I can just see Nick coming home and being like, why the fuck is there a random jar of shit in my way?

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Witchcraft, put it down.

SPEAKER_02 4:59

Um, so there was that. Um, and that is why we're recording in the morning. Um, do you have anything else to say? Oh, we wanted to talk about your test title day. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Um go for it, Ben. Oh gosh. I mean, like, hey, where do I start? We kind of gave a little brief run through last time on what it would sort of look like.

SPEAKER_03 5:22

Also, apologies for that episode. I don't know what happened with that one.

SPEAKER_02 5:26

Yeah. Uh I specifically wasn't supposed to listen to it because even after you fixed the issue, mine still wouldn't play the episode for like a week. And by then, I gave up. I didn't care no more. I think you had to like remove it from your download. I did. I did it like because like I contacted a tie. I contacted Spotify. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:51

And they were like, Well, it's fine. Don't know what to tell you.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

And I'm like, Yeah. No, I removed it and then added it and then removed it and then added it like five or six times, and it still had nothing but a little sound bite going, ah. That was all that was on there on mine. So I wasn't supposed to listen to it, um, which was probably a good thing, I think, in hindsight, because I think I would have like listened to any of the mistakes I made and like agonized about it. The universe said no, that don't worry about it. You don't need that. Um, but so I did do my ancestor candle that we briefly talked about. I used the oil that we made. Um, also the um Oh, it's my product. Uh, I guess. I mean, we've called them by name before, haven't we?

SPEAKER_03 6:48

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

Which is not for the sake of it. Just for the sake of it. Um, one of the proctors was like, yeah, as they're holding the jar of my oil, we're like, so this is like the eye opener of all eye openers for your third eye. Um, and also the spiritual weight of this. And I was like, hold on, I've got the ingredients. And as I was going through it, they're like, uh-huh. Yeah, yeah, that uh that that makes all of that makes sense. And I was like, I read a lot of it.

SPEAKER_03 7:25

You did. It was a pretty big jar.

SPEAKER_02 7:27

Which if you follow our Instagram, you would have seen Hexes and Hose Pod. Yes. Um already. We love you. My uh my main hoe over here is gonna post a picture of the the travel kit I made with all of my things for my test out because I thought it was really cute. It was. Um uh yeah, shameless plug in there, sneak that in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the one guy at the store yesterday. So smooth about it. I'm still thinking about it. We were getting you some pants, and this guy, first of all, was like, Are you done? Are you sure you're done? Do you need a cart? Do you want to fill it up with things? And we're like, sir, please, we can't do that in this economy. We're done.

SPEAKER_03 8:17

And I specifically said my wallet would hate me if I did that. And he goes, You know what your wallet won't hate you for? Getting a JC penny core.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

So smooth about it.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

And so Najalat, like he wasn't even looking at you when he said it. He was like getting stuff. I was shook to do that. I was like, scan. I was like, what? What's this? I know. I almost didn't even register it at first. Yes, no, it took me on that guy. Damn.

SPEAKER_03 8:42

Anyway.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

I don't know. You ever feel like you meet like a minor deity out in public sometimes? He was giving some interesting energy for sure. I I think I walked out and I was like, I don't know how to respond. What a weird fucking dude.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

Yeah, you were like, What a what a man.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

I don't know. I don't know how to respond to you. I don't know. He just also kind of like appeared and laughing by because there was just some a man and I was like, Okay.

SPEAKER_03 9:14

So I do think we met some sort of minor entity.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Yeah, of some kind.

SPEAKER_03 9:20

And AC said it's I mean, it can be liminal enough, right? Okay, Jay-Z pennies is for sure some I think just malls in general are such a liminal space because it's like you have all of these different locations in one big location. In one big location. So it's like 90% of the mall to me is a liminal space.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

That makes sense because there's lots of those like transitional barriers. Anyway, but we depth's on that. At some point, maybe not for the pod, but just for my own.

SPEAKER_03 9:51

I'll just, you know, make a note of that. The point.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

I did fairly well. Uh, I accidentally forgot to anoint myself. Um, I got it eventually, mainly because I picked up the oil to anoint my candle and went, oh, I didn't do me. Yeah, I think. Because we don't traditionally anoint ourselves within our own practice. And first circle, I feel like, is definitely meant for people who are just getting into the practice.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:32

Not so much people who are more established in the their own practice. Yeah. Because that's what my struggle was with the first circle, is it's like I don't really do this version of a ritual space in my own practice. And so doing it just felt awkward and like I've definitely felt like adding the elementals for me has been a good addition to my practice, but that's just my practice. Um it does definitely help with creating that boundary of a ritual space. And that's that's really what I've been feeling. Um, also, so we were going through the guardians that I'd chosen and like why I chose those particular things for them. And um, so my my air is so much bigger of a stone compared to all the others. It is it is massive compared to it. Like, it is the size of a very, very large egg. Um and he's like, I just noticed that um your air is bigger than all the others, and I was wondering if there was a reason for that. And I was like, well, not that I've no reason vibes, no, no reason that I consciously noticed. And then I started thinking about it. And the thing is, my guardians live at my office 90% of the time uh with me, because I live at my office 90% of the time. And because of the job that I do, it makes a lot of sense for the element that is mainly about medication to be so big. Yeah. But like after he asked, I was like, is there a reason? Or do I just like that stone and that's the one I had? There was a reason. There usually is a reason when you think about it long enough. Yeah, you can get somewhere with it for sure. But uh, that was interesting. Yeah, I bet.

SPEAKER_03 12:42

Um yeah. I think this would be a good time to kind of talk about uh what did we call it?

SPEAKER_02 12:53

Not gatekeeping.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Yes. Um we're talking about initiation rituals.

SPEAKER_02 12:59

Yeah, because I think we've briefly touched on it before when I was in first circle when we were recording. Um but I do think that there's a very key difference between gatekeeping and initiation. Well, yeah. I mean, gatekeeping is just saying, I don't want you to have it. An initiation ritual is more about do you have the knowledge to go further? And I think gatekeeping is also a lot more like culturally based, too, where it's like uh like voodoo and voodoo being specifically that culture. I wouldn't even call that gatekeeping.

SPEAKER_01 13:37

That's a third thing. That's closed practice.

SPEAKER_02 13:40

Yeah, but I think closed practice and gatekeeping can kind of go hand in hand. I think that gatekeeping can be useful for closed practices of being like, you cannot have this. This is for us specifically. Um I just feel like gatekeeping has such a negative connotation that I personally don't feel comfortable ascribing it to a close practice.

SPEAKER_03 14:03

I think it's unf it's an unfair connot.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

It's unfairly negative because to me, if someone is like, oh, they're gatekeeping this for me, it gives a sense of like entitlement that they don't have or they don't deserve to have. Um so like when someone's like this person is gatekeeping something, I'm like, well, there's probably a reason. Um so I guess closed practice would be the more like positive reflection of that, I guess, if that makes sense. I guess. I don't know. In I don't feel like I'm explaining myself correctly, which I should probably do because this is a podcast, but in my personal experience, when for spiritual gatekeeping, the way it has been I've seen it is more for where someone is putting a gate on something that doesn't need it. Like randomly saying that a practice is closed when there is no cultural closed. That is the downside of gatekeeping. And I think people have taken the term gatekeeping and kind of changed it from what it was meant to be. Because if you think about like even initiation rights, like it is gatekeeping to a certain extent, but it's you don't have the tools necessary to open this gate yet, which is why you have to go through the initiation. Right. You have to build that foundation, you have to go through first circle in order to quote unquote unlock the gate of second circle. So gatekeeping is not necessarily always a bad thing, like people say it is. Um, but it just it has that societal meaning that people have taken it to mean. Um, but I don't necessarily think it's bad all the time. Like I said, I think it's important to gatekeep some things, especially in um, you know, like I said, with initiations, it's important to gatekeep that higher knowledge because quite frankly, you just don't the skill or the tools, yeah, or even the mental capacity to handle it. Like second circle, the few classes that I went to before I started upending my whole life. Um, yeah. Speaking of which, I graduated. Um moving down to getting a new job all at the same time. So, you know, I think I decided where I live. I'll take that up. Yeah, you did. You did. Yeah. I was thinking about it for a second and I was like, I'll remove that.

SPEAKER_03 16:58

I'll beep that out.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

Second circle gets so much more in-depth and like insane compared to first circle. Right. And so it's like if someone didn't go through first circle and went directly to second circle, they wouldn't be so lost.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

And so it's like, I do think that gatekeeping is kind of important there of you just you can't handle this until you do this thing. Um I think it's for safety. I mean, there's so many things that we did as young practitioners who had no guidance of any kind that were not safe. Because we had no one telling us you aren't ready to do that yet. Yeah, we messed with some dark shit. Yeah. A lot of dark shit, actually. I'm surprised we're still alive, to be honest. Yeah, we kind of live the fuck around and find out life for a good minute. Um, and I also think that the resources. Well, yeah. Yeah, we've talked about the the resource desert that we sort of exist in, especially at that time. Yeah. Well, and it was also the fact that at the time we were minors and we did live under our parents' roofs. And uh they had very different beliefs, opinions on what we could and could not have. So even if we did have the resources, we had to hide them a lot of the time, and we had to be secretive about it, which I still do to this day. Like Nick has been kind of on me about like telling my mom. Mm-hmm. And he's like, You're gonna have to tell her at some point, like, you're gonna hide this from my brother's like, and I'm like, Yes, I am. Pediat, yes. And not to say that he's doing it in a way that's like mean.

SPEAKER_03 19:04

And he truly is just looking out for me because every time he comes, my mom talks about coming over, which has been quite a lot recently.

SPEAKER_02 19:12

I've had to panning scramble, hide your things. Well, really just the statues. And at this point, my books kind of permanently live in the armoire. Um, and he's like, that's not like good for you. Right. And he's like, that's not healthy. Um, and I'm like, I see what you're saying, but at the same time, I'm also like, it's none of her business. And I just I don't want to open that can of like because that's gonna be a whole thing. It's gonna be a whole thing, and uh it's just not worth it to me. Yeah, um, I've had a family friend be having a very similar conversation with me about telling my mother, and I went, no. Uh no, ma'am, that's not happening. I appreciate the concern from which your comment is coming from. It's just not gonna happen. I fully expect to keep this to myself until she dies. Pretty much, yeah. That's it. And again, it's not to say that like they don't have a point or they're like they're doing it out of love for us. Exactly. They had very different experiences growing up than we did. They have a very different relationship with religion and their families, yeah. And um, you know, they it's just it's not gonna provide the freedom that they think it's going to. Right. Like there will be some of that, but it's also gonna bring a whole lot of other shit with it. Yeah, it's gonna bring a hell of a shit storm. Yeah. That we would have to weather before things get quote unquote better if they do. Mine would never get better. Yeah. I think it would permanently alter my relationship with my mom. Yeah, and sometimes you're just not ready for that. So I'm not ashamed of my practice, but I also don't feel the need to announce it to every family member I have. And that's the thing, like it's not shame that's keeping me from telling people. Right. And I think that is something that people assume of. Right. Oh, like you're super secretive about it. Are you ashamed about it? It's I'm not ashamed about it. I just don't want to open that conversation to people.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

It's none of their business. I don't want their opinions on my practice. I I don't even want to like bother having a conversation. Yeah. Especially when they're not other, you know, it's like it's different when they're just another practitioner, you know?

SPEAKER_04 22:06

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

But like when they're like something completely different, it's just not it's not worth it to me. It's not. Like the whatever I would get out of it is not worth the shit I would get from it first. And yes, I appreciate the irony of us being like, we're so private about our practice on a podcast. Uh but to be fair, none of the people that I don't want to hear this would ever find this podcast. Right. Someone would have to be like, hey, I think that's your daughter here. Right. And that's I just don't see that happening. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. Side tangent. Um, I didn't even know what we were talking about. We were talking about initiation rituals, which kind of then also brings us into the fact that it is discussed in our new book. Yeah, we're starting a new book club. Yes. Um, theoretically, a shorter one shouldn't take us nearly as long. Um, brace yourselves. We have a lot of feelings. Yeah, uh, because which is funny considering we we chose this book, but it has a lot of benefits, but you have to remember the context in which it was written. So the book is called Paganism: An Introduction to Earth-Center Religions. Um, copyright 2002, I believe. That is very important. Um, and I don't have the author's name written down. If I find it, I will post it. I can pull it up right now because I I has mine right here because I did my notes in it. It is Higgin Botham River and Higgin Botham Joyce. Okay, so River and Joyce Higginsbotham. Yes. Yes. I think that's a weird first name, and then I realized that's the yeah, anyway. Um and so uh we read the introduction and the first chapter for this episode.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 24:24

And let's just start with the introduction. I think okay, I didn't take a whole lot of notes from that, so you may be dominating a bit. I didn't take a whole lot of notes on the actual content. Um, I do like the setup of the introduction. It was very clear, and like this is what we're gonna talk about.

SPEAKER_03 24:44

Um this is kind of the layout of the book um in each chapter.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

I had a couple of things that I highlighted towards the end.

unknown 24:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 24:59

While you do that, I'm gonna pull up and see what I have highlighted.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

So towards the very, very end of the introduction, um, there's a whole section about uh quote unquote becoming a pagan. It is in quotes in there. That's why I say that. Um, that it is uh instead becoming pagan often involves learning how to let go of attachment to dogma, to approach belief systems as objectively as possible, to accept responsibility for the beliefs and ethics you choose to adopt, and to take responsibility for the consequences of your beliefs as exhibited in your behavior. Hey, you want to know something really funny? Did you highlight that one also?

SPEAKER_03 25:42

I will show you proof. I had as well. Um something I also highlighted in the introduction is like the very first page, and this kind of goes into the whole like organization. When I tell you they they organized it by chapter, they're like, This is what you're gonna learn in chapter one, this is what you're gonna learn in chapter two.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

And they have citations. Um which is why we can get through some of the other less favorable things. Yeah, which I think is a good time to get into that.

SPEAKER_03 26:13

But it was basically I just highlighted the like start or the organization to be like, oh my god. Yes. Uh for my Virgo brain, that is like orgasmic.

SPEAKER_00 26:21

I'm like, Yes.

SPEAKER_02 26:23

You're like, it's literally a syllabus. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 26:26

But it's introduction is literally a syllabus.

SPEAKER_02 26:28

It's written like a textbook, and I hadn't I like made that connection to my brain because there are questions and journal prompts and which I did answer the questions, and we are doing the journal prompts. Of course. But we'll get to that when we get there at the end of this chapter. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:44

I don't know if I'll tell you guys my answers, but we can talk about the questions.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

I think we love to talk about our answers if we find one that we really want to talk about. Maybe one or two, but there's a lot. There's a lot of them. So kind of dense questions, too. Um, but so I also highlighted in the introduction spiritual development in paganism can be measured by the maturity of your actions and then degree to which you participate in the interconnectedness of the universe.

SPEAKER_03 27:10

I did like that quote. I don't think I have that one highlighted. I don't, but I did like that quote.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

Yeah. So the first thing they get into is sort of about uh the structure of paganism and how they're defining the different things that sit under the umbrella of paganism as traditions. So this is where we get into what are we in chapter one now? We are in chapter one. Okay. So this is my little pet peeve, if you will, about this book in the terminology, is when they first talk about paganism, both in the introduction and like the first half of the chapter, they do not say that it's an umbrella term.

SPEAKER_00 28:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:04

They use it as a general term, and I hate when people do that because it's such a big umbrella of religion, like you can't really fit everything into that one neat little word. Yeah. Right? Because there's like Hellenic paganism, there's Norse paganism, there's Wicca, there's uh Kemeticism, Celtic Kemeticism, like there are so many. Um and so I wish that they put that in either the introduction or the beginning of the first chapter of hey, when we say paganism, it is an umbrella term. Like obviously there are going to be differences between each type, but I'm gonna stop you right now. They say it. They do, they say it. I was just rereading it. Paganism, also called neo-paganism, is a new religious movement. It's the very first section of chapter one. Paganism is an umbrella term that describes a variety of denominations known to pagans as traditions. Okay, so they do all right, so we're just gonna skip everything I just said. We're gonna remove that so sorry. We're gonna remove that.

SPEAKER_03 29:13

I don't know if I can. If I can, I will, but if I can't, I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

That is on me. Um It's just sort of smashed in the middle there, I admit. They do sneak it in. But uh then they go back to using a very generalized paganism. So I can see why if you didn't catch it the first go round, you would think they didn't say it at all. Yeah, because then they go back to using paganism as a big paintbrush word. Yeah. Um they took out their history, um, where their experience comes from. I did enjoy the fact that they um owned the fact that a lot of these topics are how they interpret them personally. Yeah, that I do love when a book is like, hey, this is very much my my personal experience and opinion. Take what you want from it, leave the rest. Unless it's like historically backed, or yeah. Um I will say, this is obviously a book for people who have like literally never heard of Pegasus. Yeah, we talked about this a little bit because we couldn't help ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 30:41

Yeah, we should really like just put like a ban on talking about the book until but like I had to talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

Um we talked about it as sort of like for anyone who knows anything about paganism or wants to get into paganism, this is probably not the book for you. This wouldn't be the first one I recommended. No, it's not like it would be harmful to your practice. I think, and obviously we're only in the first chapter, so this could change, but it's a little too general for me because it's like if someone tells me they want to get into Peganism, my first question would be, well, what kind?

SPEAKER_01 31:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

Like, what are you which type are you interested in? Are you interested in the Greek Pantheon, the Norse Pantheon? Do you want to do Wicca? Because if you want to do Wicca, get the fuck out of my face. No, that was a joke. Um and then from there, I think I would direct you to some more specialized topics. I think I've had a thought since uh having the realization that this is like textbook oriented, is that like this is meant to understand the building blocks of a pagan type religion more than getting into paganism, if that's it. And that just further is my argument of if you want to get into it, this is not the first book I've got. I think this is more of a book for people who uh one have family members or friends, and they're like, I don't understand shit about what you're doing. I don't really care enough to get super into it. I just don't understand the concept of paganism in general. So for like you're more atheist or agnostic folk, I think. I agree. Um, there are a couple things in the chapter because they talk about like general beliefs of paganism that again, I don't really necessarily agree with because it is a it's a bit wishy washy for me. Because on one hand, a good majority of them do that. But on the other hand, not all of them do. And I think it's like, I don't know that I'd ever find a happy medium with it. Yeah, I think that it I have a couple of things highlighted from that particular section. Yeah. So what I have is the beliefs we identify as fundamental to paganism and how we interpret them are uniquely our own. We have on occasion been asked to name the most important belief or concept of paganism. This is difficult given the many traditions within the movement. However, if we could reduce paganism down to its essentials, we believe its two most central concepts are interconnectedness and blessedness.

SPEAKER_03 33:50

Yeah, no, I think I have something highlighted with that. Because I have it in my notes, uh, the idea of interconnection.

SPEAKER_02 33:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:56

I just have to find it.

SPEAKER_02 33:57

It is the belief that every part of the universe is profoundly interconnected. Uh it shapes how pagans view the nature of the divine, the sorts of relationships possible with the divine and the universe, and forms the pagan approach to prayer and magic. Uh, most pagans believe that all parts of the universe, whether animate or inanimate, are connected at very deep levels that extend beyond the boundaries of space-time as we know them. That one I felt mostly okay with the broad stroke on it. I have that highlighted as well. Um that one I feel okay with it, as saying like most pagans believe this because it is a very fundamental thing for most pagan-type religions.

SPEAKER_03 34:43

Yeah, and I I have to like change all of my opinions because we found that it does say that it's an umbrella term.

SPEAKER_02 34:51

I think that it's just again, it's a very beginner book, and it's very like didn't even know the term paganism existed, walked into a bookstore one day and found this book. Yeah. Because my thing is, I'm like I picked this out specifically for my agnostic aunt. Yeah. Because uh that's how I found this book. I s I keep, I'm like, it's just it's too general in my and again, this is the first chapter, so it might go to it. Yeah, because they're always like, oh, here in this chapter we'll explore this topic a little bit deeper. So I'm hoping that once we get into those, my my feelings change a little bit. Yeah, yeah. Because I'm like, okay, they are actually discussing it, you know. Yeah. Um, I feel like the first chapter is also just introduction part two. It really kind of is, and it's kind. I think the first chapter is kind of a difficult read for me, just because it's so like with a lot of the beliefs that they describe, my opinions are always like yes, but or yes, and like there's really not one that I'm like, yeah, all right. Mm-hmm. I'm cool with that. Like, I think when they're talking about like the topic of like animism, I think they talk about um, let's see, because of this interconnection, many pagans believe they're able to interact with the universe and the divine is co-created creators, and then they go, This concept is further explored in chapter five and chapter six. Um they go on to talk about how there's another belief in lots of pagan type religions that pause you for a second. It does in the second half of the book talk about what is under the pagan umbrella, which is nice. But I do wish that they like I would have restructured the chapter a little bit and put like the end part at the beginning and be like, so it's an umbrella term, this is what's under the umbrella, instead of like this is an umbrella term, but we're gonna talk about all of these general beliefs, and then oh, by the way, here's this uh here's what's under the umbrella. Like, yeah. I think I would have put that last section at the beginning and then gone into general beliefs and have been like I feel like it would have just flowed a bit more because for the like 90% of the chapter, I was really defensive because I was like yes, but yes, but um, like the subject of animism, not every pagan tradition believes in animism. That's very like emphasized in Celtic religions, but in terms of the Greek pantheon or I don't even think the Egyptian The Egyptians are are pretty animistic. I know they are for like some things, but the they so animism is the idea that all things have a spirit. Yeah. Um God, I cannot find it. I feel like they are I wouldn't classify them as uh animistic practices necessarily because they do have deities. Yeah. But they do also have that same tradition of I feel they are connected, all things have soul kind of I know they have some of that, but it's not like very it's not the way I don't even want to say it's not the main focus of the practice, because then that gets sort of into the thing of the reason certain things work within the practice is because all things have soul. But I think they take it more as uh something inherent rather than something that needs to be discussed, if that makes sense. Yeah, I also don't think it's like and it's been a while. I I'm gonna have to brush up on my Egyptian. I'm wanting to take the comedic pathworking. I've been thinking about it. I wanted to take it before the temple lost its original space space. Um they're they're redoing it right now at the same time as the Hellenic pathworking. Um, I want to do both. I missed the first class last week.

SPEAKER_03 39:37

Um that was an introduction class. Like it was Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

Um, it was um it was just on the same day that I was having that really bad day on Wednesday. And so I got done with therapy and went, I'm going home. I can't be around people right now. Yeah, no, I uh I want to look into taking it, but again, it really depends it's dependent on my schedule and um I did enjoy the fact that they said here that no part of pagan belief, practice, ritual, or sacrament is designed to save pagans from a flawed or corrupt nature or to avert supernatural punishment arising from such supposed flaws.

SPEAKER_03 40:19

I did like that. Um and I like the paragraph before it where it was talking about um there is nothing wrong with the universe or with you. Uh paganism takes the position that human beings are unflawed in their natures, are not spiritually doomed or damned, are born with all the tools and skills necessary to live ethically and spiritually, and are naturally oriented toward their own greatest growth and development. This is another one of those, like, yes, but I see what they're saying, and I agree with what they're saying.

SPEAKER_02 40:52

Except for, in my opinion, it's not that humans are unflawed, it's that humans are flawed and that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:57

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:59

That was my like little like nitpick there. Of I feel like saying that humans are unflawed is a little like dismissive almost of like well, I think it sort of gets down into like their language, so because they're saying unflawed in their natures, yeah. Which means more that like you base human at your core. There's nothing wrong with being human. Fine. There's nothing wrong with the core of being human, as opposed to a lot of um Christian type religions where human is bad. Being human is the worst thing you could be. Um you at your center are flawed and evil, as opposed to this, where it's like at your center you are unflawed. What you do with that is where you could get the flaws. So it's like your base nature totally fine. Um what you choose to do with your life is where it might get a bit muddy. Yeah. That's how I I approached that sentence.

SPEAKER_03 42:13

Yeah, I just I feel like saying like and I don't know if it was just the way that like I took it, but I immediately got depensive of like no, there's like no human is perfect, and I think it was just the way the sentence structured itself that I just like yeah also you were still really pissed off because you missed the first thing.

SPEAKER_02 42:44

Yeah, so I think it was just it was kind of a whole and I literally I read that chapter like three times.

SPEAKER_03 42:52

Uh um and I still fucking missed it three times, but you know what? It's fine.

SPEAKER_02 42:59

Um I went down a little bit to my next things that I had highlighted. Um, I also didn't a little note on it apparently. Um what I highlighted was the concepts of separateness and wrongness are so ingrained in each one of us and in our culture that most of us are often not even aware they color our perceptions, life experience, and spiritual growth. The note I put was like, no, because why am I over here sometimes like, did I do good? Am I fixed now? Like Hikate doesn't give a shit about it. I'm like, the Morgan might like a little bit, but the that has more to do with the the structure of um Irish paganism where there is a right order to your things, but it's more like are you a good person as a whole? Are you doing right by your fellow man, and not whether that god in particular has a good opinion of you? Right, yeah. Which was much more comfy. Well, and I think it was it's just more realistic in my mind, much more attainable than Christianity. Um they uh oh here's here's where I felt a little bit better about that first sentence. Uh it was something I highlighted. Uh pagans do not equate the human ability to make bad choices with a flawed nature.

SPEAKER_03 44:21

Yeah. That made me feel better. I will admit that.

SPEAKER_02 44:25

But I think that acknowledging the fact that humans are inherently flawed, but saying, but that's okay would have made me feel a bit better than the way the sentence was structured. Um I guess the way it sits for me is that uh the way I felt comfortable about it, even though normally I probably wouldn't, is that I've been sort of hitting this point in my practice where um owning your choices is so big to me, and the consequences of that. So to me, saying that at your core you are flawed almost gives people a cop out. By saying that at your nature you are unflawed and you have chosen to do these things with it, has a little bit more of that personal responsibility to it.

SPEAKER_03 45:37

Yeah, uh, I I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 45:39

It's gonna be one of those things that we're probably not gonna agree on, but yeah, I think it's gonna be an agree to disagree solution.

SPEAKER_03 45:46

Um, okay, so moving on from that.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

Uh my next thing is way down with pagans generally do not actively proselytize.

SPEAKER_03 45:56

Oh, I was gonna move on to the Wicca.

SPEAKER_02 45:58

Oh, I I had a good little section in this like general characteristics of paganism thing here. I think I have that highlighted as well, but they do not send out 46 or try to gain concrets. We knew it was gonna be bong. Okay. I told you you wanted to pretend, but I told you. Yeah, but I also would like to keep an eye on the time bed. Okay. So I mean we can talk about it. I mean, I feel like that's pretty like self-explanatory of how different it is from Christianity, of the fact that they don't send out missionaries. Yeah. Um, and then paganism is a modern religion.

SPEAKER_03 46:41

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 46:43

Oh, I I in my notes I put I mean, I guess um, I think there needs to be a clear separation from historical paganism, which is very much not new, and neo-paganism, which is a reconstructionist view, and in that way it's very modern. Which goes back to my original, like, the term paganism is just too general of a word to be Yeah. And then the way putting all these socks under to classify paganism is when we get into the Wicca thing, where they're like, here are the social scientists that say these are the things that uh make a new religious movement, and paganism purports all of that, and um by those characteristics, it has been recognized by the US courts, but they're talking about Wicca. And I think that is one of my bigger issues with this book, is they talk I think they said in here that it's not like a Wicca-based book, but it kind of is. Yeah, and and that's why you have to keep remembering it's thousand two. Like, and that's what I mean by when they were talking about like these general beliefs, these are very Wicca-based general beliefs. Oh yes, oh yeah, and that's what pissed me off because it's like you say that paganism is an umbrella term, you know, most pagans believe this, and it's like and that's where the yes and and the yes but come from. Yeah, because a lot of these definitely feel very Wicca coded.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 48:19

Even though they say this is not a Wicca-based book.

SPEAKER_02 48:22

Well, I mean, when you get into their history of like what they've done, you kind of get the vibe a little bit. Exactly. They they definitely give the vibe of they their main practice, at least at this point at time, right, um, was more of that um Christian flavored paganism. But that was the time. That Shatak does it too. So it is a very important thing to keep in mind that this was 2002, and so a lot of things have changed since then. Um I did like this one quote down here um from one of their well, their friends. Uh I don't, I don't know. Um, I I have endless scroll, so I I don't know. 15, 16 mini. Oh no, page 21. Um I just need the bold. Yeah. Um, some religions are restaurant, you sit down and they bring you what they're serving for dinner. Paganism is a buffet. If you want to eat, you have to get up off your butt and serve yourself. I did like that quote. It made me laugh.

SPEAKER_03 49:31

Um, and it's it again goes back to that like personal responsibility of like, mm-hmm, what you choose to do is what you choose to do.

SPEAKER_02 49:43

Yeah, and you have to own that and all the consequences. You have to use the work. Um they go down a little bit to what does pagan mean? And I'm like, I loved I love the idea that it used to be the country dwellers, like, as they put those hicks out there as a redneck. Yeah, culturally that hick out there. Uh I'll literally read the sentence.

SPEAKER_03 50:13

The word pagan comes from the Latin word paganus, which means country dweller. It may have been a derogatory dwellers to describe those hicks out there, much like the word redneck.

SPEAKER_02 50:26

Mm-hmm. Uh, and then they go on, it's like your leader was adopted as an insult. Uh, Muslims briefly were pagan, Protestants, Catholics flung it at each other. And then eventually it became someone who didn't have a religion, which is uh but it's sort of become the way it's being used now with like neo-paganism, is sort of the way that like the LGBTQ community has uh reclaimed the word queer. Yeah. Cause originally that was not the term for for the for us folk. Yeah. Uh he was a slur. Um wasn't the worst one, but that is what it was intended for.

SPEAKER_03 51:14

Pagan has kind of become a term for like any non-Christian based religion at this point in time.

SPEAKER_00 51:24

Basically.

SPEAKER_02 51:25

Uh like at this point, if you follow anything that is not an Abrahamic religion, you probably use the term pagan to describe your religion. Yeah. I think even Buddhists use the term pagan sometimes. Sometimes. Um they do acknowledge the fact that some pagans don't like to use the word and use another term. I mean, but there's always gonna be that one person that's like, I don't like that term. Mm-hmm. That's gonna happen anywhere with anything. Like I mean, in some of these, I get it. Where's like one of the that they mentioned was African traditional religion and native spirituality. I feel like those in particular, I totally get them. I get it. And if you don't like if you don't like that term, I won't use it for you. That's fine. I'll respect that.

SPEAKER_03 52:16

But in terms of like general conversation with people, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:21

Sometimes it's just a little bit easier. Again, it's kind of like the throwing it being like, if you don't want to get into all of the subcategories of the community that you're in, you just kind of go, I'm queer. Just to skip a lot of the steps. Right.

SPEAKER_03 52:39

And then it goes on to talk about who is pagan. And it's literally anyone who believes in pagan philosophy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:51

And this is where they do the whole like what's under the pagan umbrella, they go into it a little bit. Um, there's like six different versions of Wicca in here. Yeah. Um, then they get into shamanism, um, Asat true, which is Nordic, Germanic, and Icelandic deities. Um eclectic family traditions, Celtic traditionalism, Juritism, Santeria, and Voudan, ceremonial magic, mystery traditions, solitary, blended. But again, it does kind of have a very like wicked view of a couple of these things. Yes, yeah. We felt that way a lot about um how uh the study of ancient Greek, Roman, and Egyptian traditions was put under mystery traditions, because I then had to look up that term because I was like, what does that even really mean? So I will say for this one, there is a mystery tradition in the Hellenic tradition. Yes, but it is only one part of it. That it is not the whole thing, yeah, yeah. And that was kind of my pet view, because it's like again, a yes, but it's only one part of Greek tradition.

SPEAKER_01 54:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:11

But again, this was also 2002, too, where it was everything was a little bit more so on the Greek tradition, it wasn't really no, it was no, it was still mostly dead. Yeah. The Greek tradition didn't really get like a full revival until I think like 2010s or something. Maybe a little bit later than that. Yeah. I would level around 2016. I will look it up and see if I can find like a more concrete date. But it was much later than like 2002, it was still very dead. There wasn't a whole lot of information on it. So I can see why they they put it in the mystery traditions at this time. But again, it it's not real of it now. Yeah. Same with the next section, which is about how many paganism pagans are in the world. Um, the last survey they had was from 2002. Since then, there has been a massive boom, I'm sure. Um, I don't even know if they've done another census of that kind. Not that I really want us to be answering that kind of census at this particular point in time. How do I wait? If everybody starts asking you census questions, you should probably be a little concerned. No, money, pagans, and I'll say the US right now.

SPEAKER_03 55:40

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 55:47

Not AI. We're not gonna use AI. National Geographic, that feels a bit more neutral, reliable. Can you I can't read the article, I need a subscription.

SPEAKER_03 56:11

Well, it looks like the Commonwealth Policy Center.

SPEAKER_02 56:17

As of 2023, there was nearly 1.5 million Americans.

SPEAKER_03 56:24

Okay. And that is according to the Commonwealth Policy Center dot org.

SPEAKER_02 56:32

What was that number again? Nearly 1.5 million Americans openly claim paganism as their religion.

SPEAKER_00 56:39

Okay. That's actually it's actually smaller.

SPEAKER_03 56:49

Yeah, but that's also 2023, and we all know it was happening in 2023.

SPEAKER_02 56:52

True, 2023 was uh but yeah, uh as of the the 2002 survey in this book, 21.6 million people in the US um were open enough to new age pagan and other alternative practices to participate in them. Okay, and then I will find at the beginning of the 21st century pagans in the US numbered about 1.25 million people. So there's a lot of statistics about how many pagans there are in the world.

SPEAKER_00 57:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:36

Again, this was made in 2002, so don't take those statistics. Um then it goes down to where pagans come from and what they're like. And I left because pagan women only slightly outnumber men, which I guess may have been true in 2002. It's not been my personal experience, though.

SPEAKER_03 57:56

I've met a fair amount of pagan men though.

SPEAKER_02 57:58

I mean, if even if you look at a temple. Yes, but here's the thing you have one man for every six women in the temple. Yeah, I'm not saying that it's like they're nearly equal, but I'm saying there is just because the women vastly outnumber men doesn't mean that there aren't Oh no, I'm saying there are men. I just feel you know pagan men. I know pagan men. I know pagan men. I did first circle with a pagan man. So it is okay. Let me put that up. No, no, no. My thing is that uh my laugh about it is because there is a a resurgence of men returning to Abrahamic faiths in the last ten years. Well, conservatism is on the rise and tradial and so seeing men in pagan circles is becoming less frequent. I'm not saying that they can't be there. To be clear, please, please come be pagan. I would prefer that. Yeah, I would prefer that so much. Um I think part of it is that paganism. And again, I am aware I'm using the umbrella term and I hate it. It's necessary right now. Hagin traditions tend to be fairly matriarchal. And in our society at the moment, that is getting some pushback from the patriarchy. Yeah. Or, like, you know, with Hellenic traditions, like a particular deity might have only female priests. So maybe your phone is going off. A day is going off. Um, and um please put it on tele. Um but like you know, there might be particular temple that does have a traditional male priesthood, but you can't apply it to all deities within the Hellenic pantheon.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:21

Um even in the like more quote unquote traditional male pantheons, the women receive just at least the goddesses tend to receive just as much respect as the male of the 80s do. Yeah. Tend to. Tend to. Maybe in different ways, but they do. I did love the fact that they're like pagans are well educated when it comes to their legal and civil rights, and in our experience, are aggressive in asserting and protecting them.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:56

Again, this was in 2002.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:59

So I think in a way they kind of had to be, because it's like I don't know. I feel like most of the people that I know in pagan circles do also get super active in the political field in some way, though. Thank you. And that's partially because of that sense of personal responsibility of taking care of your community, right? Um, but I think knowing your rights was a bit more important in 2002 because it was just to that to become very important again.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:28

Yeah. I think it was like just barely recognized in 2002 as a religion. Um, so there there was kind of a you have to know your rights because at that point people didn't view it as a religion and would use it as an excuse to treat you like shit. And then it talks about what pagans do and when they do it, and that kind of goes into talking about uh high holidays and the wheel of the year.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:02

Which I think will probably make our own that'll be its own tele episode.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:06

I'm not getting into that because we're at an hour. Um and then just like important life moments like birth, death, uh welcomings, coming of age, hand fasting in marriages, hand partying, yeah, proning and saging. Which a hand parting, I had never heard the term before this, so that was cool. It's basically like the wicked or wiccan slash pagan version of a divorce.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:34

Mm-hmm. Yeah. If you did a a hand fasting, you then do a hand parting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:43

And then they do have exercises in here. So this first chapter had a walking meditation, which is where you just kind of go on a walk and you, you know, touch grass. Put the phone away. Um, and then okay, questions.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:01

Yeah, I'm getting down to those right now. Uh so it the questions were more based on uh the pagan holidays. Uh so it was t Well, they have their questions of um impressions of paganism. Oh, no, I'm still in the pagan holidays area. Oh, okay. I must have skipped forward, my bad.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:27

Yeah, no, because there's like two separate sections for questions. Um, and this one is in between the holidays and the rites of passage. Uh, and so it was talking about like what season of the year is your favorite? Have you ever been to a pagan holiday festival?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:44

What do you think about paganism, including celebrations of fertility um and processing of death? Um, I can't find any questions, so right above the rites of passage. Please hold. Oh, here we go. Yeah. Um, I mean, Sawin, of course, is big for me. Uh, but also Yule. Um, something actually very funny about the summer solstice, uh, which is very relevant right now, is that my grandfather, my great grandfather, not a pagan bone in his body. The summer solstice is like weirdly celebrated around here. Yeah. Um, it became a weird tradition where the day after the summer solstice, it was like a competition to see who could call, text, whatever, everybody, and be like, hey, have you noticed the days are getting shorter? Well, it's just like everybody I know is like, oh, it's a summer solstice. And I'm like, my mom knows what the summer solstice is. And I'm like, buddy. Um, as for rise of fertility and rites of death, those are important in every religion. Um, you know, Christians have baptisms and then like funerals are one of the biggest, like uh like businesses in corporate America. Basically. Uh with Medicaid. Don't even get me talking about like wills and respecting dead people because it's advanced directives. Insane how dead people get more respect than women, but you know, we don't have time for that conversation. Yeah, it's the whole thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:52

Um, so in terms of it being celebrated, in terms of quote unquote paganism. It's not that far of a reach. Like our priest, who's the archaeologist, told me once, he's like, that's the first thing people archaeologists look for is um to define like a culture is how they view death and their like death rituals.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:25

Um sections are a little bit about uh ritual spaces, what makes a ritual, what happens in them. Uh we've already talked about these things in uh multifoy episodes, so we can skip over those. We did, we did. We talked about uh well, what they call here in this book calling quarters, or in this case, um calling in the guardians. We will have a conversation about that in an episode. Yeah, I think that as much as I fucking hate Wicca, um it's an interesting topic to talk about. Yeah, I think it's got a very interesting nature. Um talk a little bit about ritual tools and siples, things that we've also talked about in previous episodes. So we're gonna end that episode. And then it also got touched a little bit when we were going through the the liber cathonia. Um then it goes into the principles of Peganism, and I feel like this is pretty important. I do think that I hope that they go over it more in depth.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:35

Um, I think this probably could have also been put at the beginning of the chapter right in the end, because again, I feel like this is more important than in some of the other stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:44

Yeah. Um, the first one that they list is you are responsible for the beliefs you choose to adopt. Again, going back to that whole personal responsibility thing, that's super important in paganism. Um, the second one is you are responsible for your own actions and your spiritual and personal development. If you're gonna spiritually evolve, you gotta put in the work for it. You can't just do a funny little dance and hope that's good enough. Um, number three is you are responsible for deciding who or what deity is for you and forming a relationship with that deity. You can't just go, that one's mine, and then not do anything for it. Also in like terms of consent, right? If the deity doesn't want to work with you, they're not going to. Yeah. Um, the fourth one is everything contains a spark of intelligence. Um, and then and the the the first three also said that they're covering that a little bit more in depth in chapter three. And then yours is covered a little bit more in chapter five. Same with the next one, which is everything is sacred. Um, discussed in chapter five, chapter three, and in chapter seven more in depth.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:55

Yeah, I mean, yeah, agree. I'm uh um that one I think we'll discuss more when it goes into it in depth, which is why we're kind of not really going into our thoughts about these, because uh they are going to be covered in later chapters.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:13

And we properly dedicate time to them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:18

The next one is each part of the universe can communicate with each other part, and these parts offer often cooperate for specific ends. That one I think has a really interesting question as of like, do you believe in fate and free will?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:36

Yeah. Um, which is something we'll talk about later. Yep. And they explore it more in chapter six. And the last one is consciousness survives death. That one I have complex feelings about, but we're not gonna talk about it until they start talking about it in chapter seven. So I have a better idea of what they mean by that. Actually, mean by that, yeah.

unknown 1:10:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:02

Because again, they do use a lot of broad terms because they expect to go further into it later. So I'm trying not to like jump the gun too hard about it. No, but it does. Um, I don't necessarily like the phrasing of that one. Um, because yes. It's another yes and or yes, yes, but all right. And then these questions are impressions of paganism. I think maybe we'll post these ones for you guys to see if anybody wants to to weigh in. Yeah, and if you answer these questions and you feel comfortable doing so, please let us know your answers. Or we can even have like a discussion about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:44

We can oh, I'd love a Discord.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:47

We can.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:48

I'd love a Discord.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:49

Can I be mod in the Discord?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:52

We're putting a poll out now. Do you want a Discord with us?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:56

Put the poll on Insta. I will go. I'll put it in a lot of places. Um and yeah, just let us know. I will post these and I'll also post the book as well. So if you it is on Kindle Unlimited for free, so you can do that if you have Kindle Unlimited. Um, I think to buy it is like it was $9.99 or something in that. Yeah, something like that. It wasn't very expensive. I also got the audiobook, but then it's just because I sometimes have a hard time reading lots of text. So that's just me. Um, and they do have a deal where if you get both the Kindle book and the I think I got audiobook, it's cheaper together than separate.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:44

Yeah. Um, and then it does have the journal, which I I think I'll post these as well. A couple of these, I I will say if there's anything else about this book, do it for the journaling prompts.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:02

Oh, yeah. The journaling prompts are amazing. I think those saved the book for me because I was ready to put it down. Yeah. Um I think uh I like that they they separated a little bit of uh here are a couple of questions or journal prompts for people who are just getting into it, and then here are ones for specifically people who are pagan or think they might be. Yes, I did like that. And it kind of brought me back to like, okay, why did I do this? Like it was kind of a nice way to remind myself why I choose to be pagan. Um the first the second question, five things I appreciate about my previous religion are I don't know if I have five.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:50

Do you want to?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:51

I don't know if I have five, but um I can give you at least one. I fucking miss worship music. Playful. And I I I don't know how to approach that with myself because but just the music was so good. And I think I missed that. But they all kind of tie into each other. Um, I said that I miss the simplicity of being Christian and how easy it was to be Christian because there's you know a church on every block because the Bible is one of the most is like the number one most sold gif in the world. If you say you're Christian, you don't get a lot of secondary question. Yeah, people just accept it. Um it's incredibly accessible again.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:42

The Bible is like one of the number you can walk into literally for free.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:47

Like the week you want a Bible, here you go. Um I liked how the like modern holiday calendar is kind of revolved around Christians. Right. Everybody gets Christmas off, everybody gets Easter off, everybody gets and uh I can go into how they are based on ancient traditions. I'm not gonna do that for the sake of my sanity. We covered it briefly before, so um, so that's that's what I wrote for that one is I I kind of miss how and I did like the community of my church specifically. Like, yes, there are some bad apples in the bunch, but 90% of the time you meet a Christian, they're fairly decent people for the most part.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:44

They might have some archaic views, but some of the nicest people I've ever met have been Christian.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:49

So yeah. Um the right Christians, they're great people. If they are actually doing what they're supposed to be doing, amazing people. If they are part of the Americanized Christian dogma, not so much. Yeah. Um, they talk a little bit about uh how to find pagans, which made me laugh because the first one was go to your local metaphysical bookstore. I went, shut the fuck up.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:27

I was like, yeah. I went, great. Thanks for reminding me that three boots no longer exist.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:38

I do enjoy the fact that they're like, find classes in your area. They do mention the internet, so that that's you know, if you don't have a community in your area, but I do like the fact that they're like, hey, if you have one in your area, that's where you should be going. Go to rituals and other gatherings. Again, that is dependent on your area, and if you can, uh take classes or join an organization.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:07

Again, I don't know that I do that highly dependent on your area. And joining an organization feels a bit counterintuitive.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:16

I mean, yes, I guess a little bit. I mean, does CHST count as an organization?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:24

Technically, they are officially under the tax code for it. Yeah. So it's one of those, again, yes, but it depends on your yeah, type of paganism. Yeah. Because some about a place for it, do it. If you don't, maybe don't join another one just because. Yeah. Try to find what's actually for you. Well, and I think that with paganism, it's not so much like anti-organization.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:54

It's you don't have to get on if you don't want to. Unlike it.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:59

I think again if you're trying to find information, an organization isn't a bad place to start. But if you decide that it's not for you, don't feel like you have to stay just because you went there.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:14

Yeah. And I think again, this was in 2002 where the internet wasn't a big thing, and so it was a lot easier to do signed things on the internet. Um, there's so much information on the internet about this stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:29

Um, I'm even in like a witchy Discord server, like I've been in more than a few. Um, you know, there's a ton of Instagram accounts like ours, um, podcasts, podcasts, like ours, um, YouTube, TikTok. And I would I would maybe stay away from TikTok. But oh no. Yeah, no, wouldn't be my suggestion. But there is content there, technically. You know, to your use your discretion on that one.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:08

Um my point being, there's so many resources on the internet that you can find. And if you notice help, like we can try to help you out.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:17

Yeah. And if we don't know, we know people who will know. Yeah. And I'm a Virgo, so I'll get that shit for you. She'll make you a spreadsheet. I will make you a spreadsheet. I will I will pay you to let me make you a spreadsheet. I love a good spreadsheet. Um, but other than that, that's pretty much all I have. Yeah, I'll post the questions in the discussion posts. Um on the Instagram when I inevitably get to this a month later. Uh-huh. You know, poll about the Discord. Yes, please add us now. Um I low-key want to make one, but I don't want to make one if no one's gonna join it.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:00

Right. It'd be so lonely in there. It'd be just the two of us talking.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:04

Honestly. And at that at this point, we don't need like a six app to yap in.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:10

Yeah. Uh we don't talk about it. Except we do, but it's okay. But yeah, so that's all I have. Um cheers. Cheers to those who wish as well. And to those who don't, they can go to hell. Bye bye.