#16 - Transforming Communication with Adelle Sushames, Neurodiverse Ally

In this episode of the School Can't Experience Podcast, host Leisa Reichelt is joined by clinical psychologist Adelle Sushames to discuss innovative methods for improving communication with neurodivergent children. 

Adelle shares her journey, introduces the card decks she has created (Spoon Thieves, Spoon Savers, ND Me), and explains how these tools help children articulate their experiences and needs. 

The conversation covers the challenges of traditional deficit models in psychology, the importance of affirming language, and practical strategies for parents and educators to foster better understanding and support for autistic and ADHD kids. 

Adelle shares valuable insights into how we can facilitate communication when communication is hard, and the benefits of using non-verbal tools to reduce stress for both children and caregivers.

00:00 Welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast

00:27 Introducing Adelle Sushames: Clinical Psychologist and Card Deck Creator

01:09 Adelle's Journey to Understanding Neurodivergence

06:17 Challenges in Communication with Neurodivergent Kids

14:16 Using Spoon Theory to Understand Energy Drain

21:46 Spoon Savers: Tools to Replenish Energy

23:36 Applying Card Decks in Real Life

27:07 Empowering Schools with Spoons at School Cards

29:17 Conclusion and Resources

Recommended Resources

• Join Adelle’s mailing list or buy her card decks: https://www.neurodivergentally.com/ 
• Adelle on Instagram -  https://www.instagram.com/neurodivergent_ally/
• Student Stress Investigation card deck (Tiffany Westphal) https://www.studentstressinvestigation.com.au/
• Dr Dan Siegel’s Hand Model of the Brain - https://drdansiegel.com/hand-model-of-the-brain/

Transcript

Leisa Reichelt: 0:05

Hello and welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast. I'm Leisa Reichelt, and this podcast is brought to you by the School Can't Australia community. Caring for a young person who's struggling to attend School can be a really stressful and isolating experience but you are not alone. Thousands of parents across Australia and many more around the world face similar challenges and experiences every day. Today our guest is Adelle Sushames. Adelle is a clinical psychologist based in the wilds of Tasmania, who's probably best known for creating a range of card decks including the Spoon Thieves, the Spoon Savers, and ND Me. I really wanted to talk to Adelle about her wonderful card decks, but I also wanted to talk about why communication with our School Can't kids can sometimes be so hard And why using tools like cards can sometimes really transform our ability to share information. Adelle, thank you so much for joining us today to, share some of your knowledge and wisdom. I wonder if we can get started with you just telling us a little bit about yourself?

Adelle Sushames: 1:07

Sure. Thanks Leisa. So my name is Adelle Sushames and I'm a clinical psychologist based in Tasmania. I have a solo private practice where I primarily do autism and ADHD assessments for all ages. And then I have a small therapeutic caseload, and outside of that, I run a second business called Neurodivergent Ally, where I sell card decks focused on giving autistic individuals and ADHDers a way to communicate, think about, discuss the things that are difficult for them and what accommodations and supports might be helpful for them, as well as just getting a bit better understanding and affirming way of describing their experiences are and what its like to be autistic, ADHD or AuDHD. I have two kids and there isn't anyone in our household who is allistic or neurotypical. We all have some flavor of being neurodivergent, and that's not really something that I discovered fully until probably around five years ago, because you know that really common experience of having a child who is starting to struggle more in the school environment, leading to exploration of that and diagnosis and then looking at the next child through a different lens, and then starting to look at yourselves as parents through that new lens as well and having lots of aha moments. But for me, I think that was also compounded through primarily working with this population clinically, just having so many people sitting in the chair opposite me, describing their own internal experiences, and me thinking, well, I do that and that's true for me as well. taking that real, change of perspective from looking at particularly autism through a deficit, disorder lens and seeing Seeing it as the DSM described it to actually realizing that it's far more vast and broad than that, and very nuanced and that a lot of what autistic women in particular experience looks very different and feels very different to how it might be described clinically and in those more medically focused texts and learning resources.

Leisa Reichelt: 3:14

Adelle, I feel like I hear lots of people who are clinical psychologists who discover their neurodivergence years after they've done their training. Is that basically the explanation of it? That the training that you get, the academic training that you get as the deficit model doesn't give you an insight into how it shows up differently in women and, other people. And it's not until you get that real lived experience of clinical practice that you can see that it's broader than how it's taught.

Adelle Sushames: 3:46

Look, I can recall learning about autism and ADHD as part of a unit in my master's that was called Neurodevelopmental Disorders in Childhood and Adolescence. So it didn't include adulthood, everything stops once you get to 16 or 18 apparently. It wasn't really explored or taught around what happens in adulthood. My understanding, even on finishing my masters, was that most ADHDers stopped being prescribed ADHD medication once they leave high school because they, you know, airquotes,'don't need it anymore'. We know from speaking to many people about their lived experience that in fact they do still need it, forevermore because it, you know, has such a huge impact on functioning. But yeah, definitely true to say that what we're taught and then what we're go on to learn later and experience through clinical experience and taking onboard perspectives of lived experience within the communities seems to me at least to be so much more impactful. And I think that that deficit, that pathologizing focus model really feeds into that because we're essentially taught as trainee psychologists and allied health professionals that autistic people can't function. ADHDers can't function, so therefore you can't be one because you did university and you did well at university and you've been successful in your career. So there's all that, kind of hidden ableism and bias in what we're taught, which takes a really long time to unravel, for many of us. And I think, you know, there's a, for all of us that have got to that point, there are many, many other psychologists and allied health professionals that still rigidly adhere to what they were taught

Leisa Reichelt: 5:25

oh yeah, I was gonna say it's so dependent on you having that open-mindedness and curiosity to it I think we all probably have experienced, there are plenty of people who don't have that, unfortunately. Yeah. Interesting. That was a little bit my special interest of the deficits in the training in psychology at the moment. I think hopefully it's improving. Fingers crossed.

Adelle Sushames: 5:46

I think it is, slowly improving the impression I get from various online forums for psychologists, which include, trainee psychologists, provisional psychologists, those that are still completing their studies while working in a similar field or being part of these forums because they wanna hit the ground running. It does suggest that there are quite a few openly autistic or ADHD psychology students that are actually starting to question the way that things are being taught and making suggestions to the universities, which is really amazing.

Leisa Reichelt: 6:18

Well, Adelle, I first came across you via the Spoon Thieves cards that you've developed because my son's psychologist used them with him to try to open up communication and help him articulate what was going on with him. In doing that, we were able to uncover information about sensory challenges that he was having, that I had absolutely no idea about. Not in all of his 14 years prior, had I really heard him say any of this stuff before, and it really kind of blew my mind. To think about the power of those nonverbal ways to communicate and to elicit information and understanding from our kids. And I know so many parents who have School Can't kids find themselves in a situation where they desperately want to understand what's going on so that they can find ways to help address that and support that and, you know, try and solve those problems or find different ways of, of their kids moving through the world, understanding those problems. But so often you ask questions and you just get I don't know, or you get silence or you get shrug. And so it can be like you very, very stressful to think how do we move forward when this child can't, won't, tell me what's going on. So I, that's what I wanted to focus on with you today. What are some of the reasons that communication fails to happen?

Adelle Sushames: 7:43

I think there are quite a few things that contribute to that, and it varies person by person, but I'm pretty sure you're aware of Dan Siegel's hand model of the brain and the upstairs brain and the downstairs brain and how the two interact and communicate when we are feeling safe and calm or regulated. Even in those circumstances, many kids who are autistic in particular will have communication difficulties, so they're already on the back foot as far as communication is concerned. Then if they are dysregulated, one of the first things to go offline is their verbal communication skills, so that's their receptive as well as their expressive language The other thing that can make it even more difficult is that often, the topics that we're wanting to communicate with kids about are things that they feel ashamed, feel bad. They feel, as though they've done something wrong or are doing something wrong, or we're upset or angry with them, and that can shut down communication very quickly.

Leisa Reichelt: 8:41

So let's say child isn't going to school. We don't really know why. There's no obvious reason that we can identify that we can go in and solve to make it easier for them to go to school. What are some of the things that we should be thinking about or doing to create conditions where our children, our young people, might be able to tell us a little bit more?

Adelle Sushames: 9:07

I think when a child is dysregulated or having a significant problem that's ongoing or chronic in nature, we need to look at connection as a means to recovery first, because no amount of problem solving is going to hit the mark when somebody just doesn't feel right in themselves, they're in burnout, or they're highly stressed about a particular expectation or environment. So starting with trying to connect with them, trying to be present with them, trying to respond in order to provide co-regulation is, from my perspective, the primary goal. Because it really doesn't matter what the underlying cause, reason, message, miscommunication might be until we can get them to a place where they're able to feel that being back at school under particular circumstances which are improved. That problem solving is actually relevant.

Leisa Reichelt: 10:02

What are the kinds of things that parents are doing when they're trying to create connection?

Adelle Sushames: 10:07

I think for a start, a big one is reducing demands and expectations and just giving time and space.. Most kids who are at the point where they're not able to attend school regularly or not able to attend school at all but there's still that ongoing pressure and expectation that they get up and they try and you get them there. Those kids and teens are gonna need a break first. But it's not a break if there is this ongoing question, when will you be ready? How about we try today? What are we gonna do next week? How about we go and do this activity? Like it's still very demand heavy and not allowing their nervous system to fully have that recovery that is needed.

Leisa Reichelt: 10:46

So just to make sure that I understand what you're saying, if you've got a child and they're starting to become really resistant to attending school, something that a parent should be considering in order to create conditions that the child feels they can tell them more about what's going on is to give them a break from school to stop continually trying to get them in.

Adelle Sushames: 11:06

If you're really at the beginning and just starting to see a little bit of hesitance about going to school then if they're in a space to be able to communicate, then why would we not do that but just not expecting that that's going to be automatically successful.

Leisa Reichelt: 11:20

it sounds as though you're advocating for a much softer approach rather than a strict, hold the boundaries, keep the guidelines in place, be a little bit more accommodating to the difficulties that the child is experiencing.

Adelle Sushames: 11:35

Absolutely, Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt: 11:36

All right so, if I wanna sit down and have a conversation with my child about what's going on at school, I know in the olden days, the most likely time that we would start these conversations would be about 11 o'clock at night when my son's refusing to go to bed and he's really upset. I'm just trying to go, why don't you wanna go? What are you worried about? You know, how can I fix it so that you can get to sleep so that you can get up in the morning and go to school the next day? I think probably that wasn't a textbook approach to communication with my child. What should I have been doing instead?

Adelle Sushames: 12:14

Look, I don't think there's a single right answer or approach to that, but I think if a child's unable to sleep because of anticipatory anxiety about what's coming the day ahead. Taking off all pressure around that so that they know you communicate to them that decisions around what happens tomorrow can be made tomorrow. So that they're able to, feel regulated enough that their body can actually rest and sleep,

Leisa Reichelt: 12:43

And I think the other thing that I found was really important was just, to try to get into these conversations when we were both reasonably calm at the beginning didn't always work because quite often, as soon as I tried to. Start a conversation, he would completely spin out'cause he didn't wanna talk about it at all. If we were both upregulated at the beginning of the conversation, it was, yeah. The door was gonna get slammed in my face pretty fast, literally as well as metaphorically sometimes.

Adelle Sushames: 13:10

Yeah. And I think, these conversations don't have to be done the traditional way, face to face teenagers are great at texting. They can send you a note space and thinking time to come back on their own terms when they're ready, when they're able to think about it. Often verbal conversations really have a sense of being put on the spot to answer, and you might not have had the chance to think through or to regulate your emotions

Leisa Reichelt: 13:34

yeah. I think that's a really good observation. Sometimes I have written notes to my son and I'll put them underneath the door that's just been slammed, and, he'll pick them up, read them, and then tear them to shreds. But at least I think he's read them most of the time and, it's more than I would get if I was trying to talk to him your point about looking to nonverbal forms of communication is really important seeing the psychologist use the cards with my son opened my mind to the fact that there were all of these different non-verbal ways that were really helpful. Can you tell us a little bit about like the, the origin story of the cards? What have you made and, how have they been useful in the work that you've been doing?

Adelle Sushames: 14:15

Yeah, for sure. I was just looking for a resource that I could use primarily with kids and teens that would very broadly look at the things that are challenging or take up most of their energy or that they just simply can't do without support or assistance. I was searching online to try and find something specific to that nature and I couldn't find anything. So just concluded eventually that I would make my own. That was on the first deck, which was called Spoon Thieves. In recognition of Spoon Theory, that tells us that you have finite resources available to you basically, and puts this added level of awareness into the, the fact that we don't as neurodivergent people have as many resources available to us or as much energy, as much coping capacity. Things that neurotypical people can do with ease, cost us more spoons, more energy. And so they were called Spoon Thieves. From that came the idea of doing a companion deck about the Spoon Savers. What are the things that save energy? What are the things that help us feel supported and accommodated in different environments? What are the ways that we and others can do things differently that actually fits our neurotype and our needs?

Leisa Reichelt: 15:31

Let's dig into those a little bit more, So Thieves cards were the ones that I came across first. Can you talk a little bit about what kinds of things are on the cards? And then how does a psychologist use it with a young person?

Adelle Sushames: 15:43

Sure. So Spoon Thieves has 60 different cards, each of those cards represents a different aspect of daily life and activity a characteristic, I suppose of being autistic or ADHD, that makes things more challenging. Throughout the deck, I tried really hard to use affirming language, which doesn't always mean necessarily positive language, I'm never going to say being autistic or ADHD is a superpower and we have all of these amazing superhuman skills. That's not the way that I view things, but if I can't be affirming and positive about it, I'll be realistic and factual use language that's accepting of the reality, but not in any deficit. The word deficit does not appear. The word disorder does not appear, the word problems does not appear. Because they all suggest, that needs to be corrected or should be corrected

Leisa Reichelt: 16:31

are there one or two that are some of your favorites that you can remember?

Adelle Sushames: 16:35

Oh, So I think there are definitely some that are more obvious as to which neurotype they might belong to, such as, when there's a change to my routine or holding in stims or, talking about and expressing emotions. But then there are some things that can be difficult for both autistic people and ADHDers like going along to appointments or having to sit still, or a uniform, whether that's a school uniform or a work uniform. And then I think, for adults as well, and teenagers in particular who are very aware of their neurotype and their needs, there's a card that talks about educating others. It's a really taxing task to have to continually explain to others that you or your child or whoever is autistic or adhd, that actually means. No, it doesn't necessarily mean this stereotype that they've got in their mind and these are their needs and these are how we are. Like, it's a full-time job just to get everybody on the same page. And I think sometimes when we're trying to have these conversations with others, that's another reason why you get that shut down or I don't know, because it's too hard. So we're just not going to start.

Leisa Reichelt: 17:40

Well, the other thing my son would say is that I've tried to tell people lots of times and nobody's ever listened, so why should I bother?

Adelle Sushames: 17:47

Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt: 17:48

Yeah,

Adelle Sushames: 17:49

is hard and whether or not the other person has not only.

Leisa Reichelt: 17:55

I know they get dismissed so often, don't they? So you've got these 60 cards, they've got all of these different kinds of things on them that can take energy from our kids in different environments that they're in. Particularly the school environment perhaps. And then what, so what do they do with the cards?

Adelle Sushames: 18:13

So with the cards, the way that I've used them clinically with a child or a teen, we'll both sit on the floor and we'll spread them all out so that we can see all of them at once. If they've not come across spoon theory, then I give them an explanation of that, and I literally have a set of, you know, the little, silver teaspoons that have the pictures on them from different towns or different Just in keeping with the original spoon theory about having 12 spoons. So I'll give them the twelve spoons and say, this is all of your energy for the day. Show me where it goes. And so they'll be putting a spoon on a card. I've had some beautiful moments with teenagers in particular around self-compassion when they have realized that they literally cannot do all of those things because their spoons are used up and it's not something that's wrong with them or something that they need to try harder to do. It's just, this is how their body is and what their minds and bodies are capable of doing. So much acceptance around that that wasn't there previously. They felt bad about this. They had some shame around this. And so I think that's been really impactful and nice to be able to see that. The other thing that has been amazing with kids and young people in particular, is bringing a parent into the room and having them see how their child has communicated and what the main messages are that we take from that. And so many a-ha! moments around oh, that's why after they've had to do this particular part of the routine in the morning. That's why getting in the car after that is so much harder because they've got nothing left for that transition, because they've just had the sensory hell of brushing their teeth or putting their school shoes on or whatever it might be.

Leisa Reichelt: 19:51

Yeah, that's the exercise that my son did with his psychologist. She got him to do the three piles of this doesn't bother me. This bothers me a bit. This bothers me a lot. I came into the session afterwards and they're like, oh, have a look at this. And there was a big pile of, doesn't bother me at all. There was a big pile of, bothers me a bit and there was one card in the bothers me a lot. And the bothers me a lot one was about smell. That was not on my radar at all. To the best of my knowledge, he'd never communicated to me how much this bothered him. I think because he always thought that it was just something that everybody dealt with and they all were dealing with exactly the same experience he was dealing with. And we just didn't complain about it. So he didn't complain about it. It's hard to change the smells of the world, but he talked particularly about, getting in the car and going on a car trip some people in my family may or may not have had slightly smellier shoes than others. This was a big deal for him. He didn't wanna get in the car and go anywhere because of the smelly shoe situation. It's like, well, we can actually do something about that. So that was good. It just woke me up to the fact that there's probably so much going on that I'm unaware of. And for him it was, I think, such an affirming experience to go. All of these things are things that take energy. You know, look, they're here on the card. This proves that this is like an energy sucker. I think that was really validating for him. And then understanding that kind of energy economy and the fact that there's only so much and that, if things cost you more, then of course you're gonna run out faster than other people. I don't think that anybody could have sat down and talked him through that and conveyed that same understanding to him as he had, through the validation of the cards with the information. And, I would've not had that knowledge either if he'd have not had that process of taking those things and then working with them the way that he did. And so then the flip side of that are the, what are they? Can you talk me through those a little bit?

Adelle Sushames: 21:46

So, Spoon Savers, again has 60 cards in, and it is for everything that takes energy, we want an option that helps to replenish it or prevent it from being taken in the first place. And in the same vein as using the Spoon Thieves deck, I wouldn't expect every card to resonate with every person. And depending on the person's age and what's happening in their world, I might even, selectively take out a subset of the cards because they're not relevant

Leisa Reichelt: 22:13

I was gonna say, you're gonna take, go and have a glass of wine out for the teenagers.

Adelle Sushames: 22:16

Yeah, that's not in there surprisingly. Yeah. So the Spoon Savers has a whole range of different accommodations and ways of doing things differently. And some of them might match up with a Spoon Thief card, so there might be, you know, take off socks and shoes as something that kids can do at school if their uniform is bothering them. Whereas some of the other, Spoon Savers, are not necessarily matched up to a Spoon Thief card. They're just things that can help regardless, like having time outside, having time on technology, having time doing special interest focused things, being able to access support to communicate to others. So there's a whole bunch of things in the cards, but the overarching goal is to make life easier and to help this person communicate to others and for others understand what are some of the tweaks and adjustments and modifications that can be made. Not any single one of them are huge. But when you start adding them up, the cumulative impact can be huge. So why would we not wanna do that?

Leisa Reichelt: 23:15

Yeah, and I guess it validates the young person's, desire to do some of those things as being like, this is something that's helping to build me back up. It's not I'm addicted to a screen or hiding away from reality reading novels, it's like literally, this is helping me to sort of build back up again. And, yeah, it's not something to be ashamed of. It's something to think of as a tool. And then there's also the ND Me.

Adelle Sushames: 23:39

Yeah, that was the third one, that I brought out, and that was just about having a set of terms and phrases to use in place of the types of terms and phrases that we typically see in the DSM and in the more formal texts about autism and ADHD. So all of the different traits basically that I could think of in there. And there're things that you would find in the DSM, but worded in more affirming language, but also things that are the, I guess, more internalized high masking presentations you'll see in late diagnosed adults. You can see how they fit within the criteria, but they're not so immediately obvious. They're not part of the stereotype necessarily, but they're things that I've heard time and time again and have experienced and have seen my children experience. Putting that out there as an objective thing for others to see and recognise just felt really important.

Leisa Reichelt: 24:32

One of the reasons that I wanted to share this is that, A, you've created these wonderful resources. B, I think there's something in that methodology of like writing down a whole range of potential options. Putting them in front of people and saying what resonates, what doesn't resonate? The validation that comes from those range of options being realistic, valid, acceptable. As well as that different way of being able to manage information and communicate information is something that I've applied with my kid. We were coming up to something that was potentially gonna be really challenging for him and I was worried about how he was feeling emotionally about it. So I made a whole stack of emotion cards just on cut up paper and, asked him to pull out the ones that he was feeling and the ones that he wasn't in that example, he just told me he was feeling fine and didn't need to do this, but thanks. But also, you know, yeah. You know, we got it opened up. The communication. He didn't wanna do the cards, but, sometimes it's easier to have different dinner options. He picks one or two that he would find acceptable. That's way easier for him sometimes than for me to go, what would you like for dinner? Or even, would you like this or that? Pointing at a thing on a bit of paper is often just such a easier way to get that communication going. Yeah, I know that there's a lot of very creative people who listen to this who will take this as a concept, I'm sure, and go, oh, here's all the different ways that I could use that. Or when we find ourselves in a situation where we're just like, why can't I get this child to tell me what's going on? This might just be another way to take out some of the shame, validate a whole range of different things that might be going on, and reduce the intensity of that communication that we're asking from them potentially.

Adelle Sushames: 26:22

Yeah. And look, I think there's no limit to what parents can achieve when they are ready and aware and very motivated to support their child. We can make our own visual supports, we can make our own sensory, tools and resources. We're very strong at advocating for our kids. And I think that tne next area to focus on for me is getting schools more on board. Something that private practice has taught me over the years is that you can do all the very best work with your clients and with their families, but if they then go out into the real world and those supports fall flat or are resisted or rejected. It's so damaging and disheartening for everybody. I put out the Spoons at School cards because I wanted the schools to have a resource to help the kids communicate what they needed. For schools to be able to visibly see it on the table or on the floor in front of them so that when they're planning learning plans or looking at how their classrooms are set up or when they're looking at how to configure and, run their sports days and special events, they have it all right there in front of them and they know.

Leisa Reichelt: 27:31

What's your vision for how the Spoons at School cards would be used in the school context?

Adelle Sushames: 27:36

I have no specific instruction but I've had amazing, emails and messages from teachers and others using the cards in creative ways. It's just giving kids a voice really.

Leisa Reichelt: 27:48

do you have an example of one of the stories that's been shared to you by a teacher in school that you'd be able to share with us?

Adelle Sushames: 27:54

yeah, there was a teacher in, I think a year four or five class, and she'd used the Spoon Thieves and the Spoon Savers as an activity on the very first day, back to school after lunch, she had a boy approach and say, I've got no spoons left. Can I have some time to go and do this activity and she was just floored because that particular child wasn't even on, on the list of students who might need accommodations and supports, but they were able to use it.

Leisa Reichelt: 28:19

So she'd got the whole class to do

Adelle Sushames: 28:21

to

Leisa Reichelt: 28:21

the exercise.

Adelle Sushames: 28:23

Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt: 28:23

Wow. That's pretty amazing, isn't it? Because I guess everybody is impacted, aren't they? By things that draw their energy and things that build their energy back up again.

Adelle Sushames: 28:32

Yeah, I mean, I'd see them being used at teacher PD days without the students even present because I think there's so much learning that could be had and just discussions from doing activities with the cards around what their needs are as teachers, because surprise, there are neuro divergent teachers, plenty,

Leisa Reichelt: 28:48

Yeah. Yeah.

Adelle Sushames: 28:49

Either need accommodations or have come to develop their own ways of working that allow their needs to be accommodated.

Leisa Reichelt: 28:56

Yeah.

Adelle Sushames: 28:56

I think those ones in particular are gonna be our strongest advocates for AuDHD kids moving forward in schools, but just for all of the teachers and TAs to have more tools in their kit and more understanding and awareness of how they might, come together when they're supporting our young people.

Leisa Reichelt: 29:16

Sounds wonderful. Okay, well if people do wanna find out more about the cards that you've created or, follow your social media channels where's the best place to find out more?

Adelle Sushames: 29:26

well you can find my social media. neurodivergent, I think it's Ally the handle to search up. Other than that, you can take a look at my website, which is neurodivergentally.com, and I have an email list that goes out most weeks.

Leisa Reichelt: 29:40

Well thank you so much for taking this time, Adelle. I really appreciate it. It's been great to talk to you today. Well, I hope you're feeling a little more inspired with some ways that we might be able to unblock communications with our School Can't kids. We talked about Adelle's great card decks today, but I did also wanna give a shout out to School Can't Australia's very own Tiffany Westphall, who has also produced a card set called the Student Stress Investigation that you also might wanna checkout. Now at the risk of sounding like a complete YouTuber. If you have found this episode helpful, please do take a moment to subscribe to our podcast. Maybe even give us a rating or a review. It really does help us to get this podcast in front of more people who have School Can't kids, and have not yet found our community and the information that we can share. You can find links to Adelle's information in the episode notes, as well as some helpful School Can't Australia links. Do you have some feedback for us? Maybe you'd like to share your own school current lived experience. You can drop us an email to schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com And finally, if you are a parent or carer in Australia and you are feeling distressed, please remember you can always call the Parent Helpline in your state. A link with the number to call is in the episode notes. Thank you so much for listening, and we will talk again soon. Take care.