#23 - Eliza Fricker's Lived Experience

In this episode of the School Can't Experience Podcast, host Leisa Reichelt is joined by Louise Rogers from School Can't Australia and their guest, Eliza Fricker. 

Eliza, known for her insightful School Can't Illustrations and webinars, shares her personal journey of navigating 'School Can't' with her daughter. They discuss the challenges of the school environment, the emotional toll on parents, and the eventual transition to a trauma-informed educational setting. 

Eliza's candid conversation highlights the importance of parental instincts, the need for community support, and the significance of maintaining a strong parent-child connection. 

00:00 Welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast

00:28 Introducing Eliza Fricker

01:23 Eliza's Journey: From Illustrator to Advocate

02:46 Early Signs and Nursery School Challenges

05:16 Struggles in Primary School

11:52 The Breaking Point and Transition to Home Education

14:06 Finding a Trauma-Informed Educational Setting

17:50 Reflections on Parenting and Advocacy

28:50 Current Status and Future Outlook

32:37 Closing Thoughts and Resources

Recommended Resources

• Eliza on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/elizafricker_missingthemark/?hl=en
• Eliza on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MissingTheMark1 
• Eliza’s website (including all her books): https://missingthemark.co.uk/
• Low Demand Parenting Online Course with Eliza & Dr Naomi Fisher: https://naomi-fisher.mykajabi.com/low-demand-parenting
• Pam Leo, Connection Parenting: https://connectionparenting.com/

Transcript

Leisa Reichelt: 0:05

Hello and welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast. I'm Leisa Reichelt and this podcast is brought to you by the School Can't Australia community. Caring for a young person who is struggling to attend school can be a stressful and isolating experience, but you are not alone. Thousands of parents across Australia and many more around the world face similar challenges and experiences every day. Today I'm joined by Louise Rogers from School Can't Australia, and we are talking with the delightful Eliza Fricker. Now, you might be familiar with Eliza from her insightful School, Can't Illustrations that she shares on social media, or perhaps from the wonderful webinars that she does alongside Dr. Naomi Fisher. Or perhaps you've read one of her books like Can't, Not Won't or maybe A Different Kind of Parenting. Eliza is also the parent of a daughter who has experienced School Can't and we are thrilled that she has chosen to share some of that experience with us today. Alright. Well Eliza Fricker we are absolutely delighted to have you joining us on our School Can't Experience podcast. Thank you so much for sharing some time with us.

Eliza Fricker: 1:11

Thanks for having me.

Leisa Reichelt: 1:12

I'm sure lots of people are familiar with, so much of the stuff that you do online and your books but you could give us a little bit of context. Tell us about yourself and your family. What do we need to know about you?

Eliza Fricker: 1:23

Uh, so my name is Eliza Fricker. I'm an author and illustrator. I've always been an illustrator in some degree. But my background, I suppose, was a bit more design led previously, I used to have a design business where I designed wallpapers, and that just kind of got harder really to maintain, sustain, I had to do design shows and travel around. I, you know, had a child struggling in school. So I, that's when this kind of work started to, I actually started doing this work as soon as my child was unable to go to school. What happens for me is that I'm. I'm absorbing all these experiences. I'm kind of processing them as much as I can in a highly stressful situation that was ongoing for years. As soon as my child wasn't able to go to school, I started to draw those experiences. And the first drawings I did, which are, there's some of them in Can't Not Won't, were, I was just drawing my daughter. And I was drawing from old photographs before we were in school before those experiences started, to try and bring back some feelings of what we were experiencing before the school stuff. But over time, you've seen my work, it developed into those experiences of, of what, what was going on for us in school.

Leisa Reichelt: 2:46

So if we were going to go through this kind of School Can't journey with you, where would you say that the beginning is? Where does it start?

Eliza Fricker: 2:57

It's really interesting. I did a post today. And I had an old drawing that I'd drawn off my daughter when she was a baby, just in her nappy, rolling around on the floor. I dunno if you love babies', feet and their big heads, but, their bodies are so lovely and distinctive. And I posted that yesterday and I was writing about those early experiences of being a mother and really feeling things. Obviously motherhood is quite overwhelming in itself. But I think what I was trying to explain was that there were these instincts and feelings in the beginning that things were a little bit different for us. Instinctively as parents, we make those adjustments I had a child who was clingy and quiet and still slept in my bed and I was already starting to see those comparisons and edit my experiences of motherhood with those other mothers. Perhaps not sharing as much that I had a child still in my bed when others were talking about getting their child, into their own bed. And so there were those little early on things, but it wasn't until nursery school, where there was a separation, I suppose, of me and her where I really saw things in a different way because I had that input, suddenly on us or my parenting, where my child should be at, you know, and developing. And so that was the beginning because going to nursery school was incredibly distressing for her. Incredibly distressing. And I was told that she would, you know, learn to get on with it. It was just a big change and she would learn to cope with that. And she was probably about two and a half at the time. She didn't, even in nursery, it was very difficult for her. She stuck to one nursery teacher. They said she was very quiet, didn't really talk, and I would pick her up from nursery. It was on my road actually. Just near to my house. But she would have these huge meltdowns, crying the whole way home and then crying, difficult to settle at home and then would just crash out. I had no comparison. I didn't have another child. It was my first and only child. So we carried on with that. And that carried on through to school. And again, it was, you know, she'll be fine or she is fine. So what, what happened was that I think that quietness in her when she was in school that sort of suppression really, that she learned very quickly to suppress that distress. She was always seen as a well-behaved child in school.

Leisa Reichelt: 5:40

So when you come to school time and it's less of howling because you have to go away from your mom, and it's just learning to internalize it all.

Eliza Fricker: 5:49

Hmm. Hmm.

Leisa Reichelt: 5:51

Did you have any awareness of that at the time? Or is this you, in retrospect, looking back going that I understand now what was going on.

Eliza Fricker: 6:00

I had a meeting before speaking to you two actually, and we were talking about the loudness of other voices in this. So, that's something I explore quite a lot in my work is what happens to our instinct as a parent gets quieter. And that's often because other people are telling us it's a different way or that we are misinterpreting that. Now that's in itself quite problematic. If we were in a relationship where we were distressed about something and that person was saying, no, you are fine. That would be seen as quite a harmful relationship. However, it still seems to come up quite a lot within these relationships we have within, you know, parents and professionals. It's very difficult as a parent when you are sharing this sort of distress. I was not comfortable be sharing that stuff that was going on at home, and the reason I was sharing it was in order that some support would happen or some action would happen, or I think as well that someone would actually kind of validate that and say, yes, that's sounding like that's very difficult and perhaps we need to look at some other options. We didn't have any conversations like that. It was very much, well, let's offset that with some positives about, when they're here, they seem fine. And when they're here, they, you know, they have nice time at playtime or last week they had a really good week, so there wasn't anyone really matching what I was saying in those, in those situations.

Leisa Reichelt: 7:34

So you were having that similar experience at school where she was going in, doing school, being on good behavior, then coming home and melting down.

Eliza Fricker: 7:45

And, but eventually what happened was that that wasn't sustainable. And when I speak to other families, something that, that, that is a definite pattern. So what happens is often these children are very well behaved in the beginning. They might even be seen as high achievers or gifted and talented. They're doing really good work. But over time for many of these children, my own included is that it's not sustainable. So some things got to give, and over time my child became less able to do that stuff in class. So, the masking, if you like, became harder to do. so, schoolwork could be harder for them to do. Putting pen to paper was harder to do. Eventually they were sort of withdrawing from the classroom and being out of the classroom So over time they became less active in that space. They were more and more withdrawn, but not doing anything. That kind of withdrawnness was seen as just being still quite placid.

Leisa Reichelt: 8:47

How does the school respond to that?

Eliza Fricker: 8:50

I mean, they tried stuff, but it was very much around trying to get them to engage in school rather than seeing that as a problem with that environment and perhaps suggesting that environment was unsuitable. So it was still very much about suggesting within that school environment. Sometimes there'd be a teaching assistant that would play a card game with them, or they would try and find out what they were interested in and bring some of their interest into the learning. I think some of the things they suggested weren't necessarily bad or harmful, it's just that it was too late. You know that that trauma of, and that impact of that environment had already set in by then. So, you know, of in terms of resetting, it's very difficult to do that when that's already there.

Leisa Reichelt: 9:43

Eliza, was your daughter able to talk about what she was struggling with at school in those early days?

Eliza Fricker: 9:51

No. I had a child who found that pressure on her was already enormous, and so conversations around what those difficulties might be, just felt like more pressure. So, there would be a shutdown. I think this, is very common for a lot of children and families I speak to. When we talk about that pressure, I think these children already feel a lot of pressure. Those questions do feel like more pressure. They feel that they've got to have the right answer and they don't know the answer. And it's often multilayered and complex. Sometimes I talk about if you went into a hospital, you know, adults talk about, oh, I hate hospitals. And you're like, why? Oh, I just don't like. I just can't stand them. And I think that's what for a lot of children, that's that feeling for them. And we're asking them to kind of articulate what that is, and that's often because we are in this solution, fix narrative of, you know, the amount of times I got asked, is it too noisy? Would they like some headphones? I mean, they would've loved that'cause that would've sorted out in a heartbeat, you know, done, sorted. It's more complicated than that and it's often that whole environment, the smells, the sounds. The pressures of the work, being in that environment for six hours, is an incredibly long time to endure it. Maybe if they only had to pop in for an hour, they might have been able to manage it. It's all the things, it's an awful lot for them. And so, to try and ask what that is with these direct questions would often be met with a no, or shut up, or, I don't know.

Louise Rogers: 11:38

I was gonna ask, what was,'cause you've made a change to your child's education. Yes.

Eliza Fricker: 11:45

Yeah.

Louise Rogers: 11:45

what happened and what prompted that change?

Eliza Fricker: 11:50

It was a kind of forced hand. We ended up with a child too unwell to go to school anymore. They actually had a breakdown. They were so anxious at the time. If I'd said, we're not gonna do school. That would've also been met with a no, because that would've created an uncertainty as well. You know, that flexible, creative brain that we need to make new decisions and ideas isn't there when you are very anxious and stressed. That would've created its own anxiety to say, we're not doing school anymore. Because, she wouldn't have known what that looked like. What does that mean? This is all I know. I'm not stopping that because I don't wanna start something else. What I was kind of doing at that time was just making suggestions, like drip feeding suggestions, of, you know, you don't have to go to school. There's other options. I was putting those in there to sort of build a picture over time, but also to give the option that, if this doesn't work, that's okay. I'm not gonna be disappointed with you. And then it was the big transition from primary school to secondary school. So that's a huge leap because primary school starts off and there's a lot of coloring in and painting and you know, relaxed uniform and that secondary school is strict uniform, homework, timetable, get yourself there, know, you gotta get the bus, whatever. It's a big leap. And we had, the kind of legal documentation, educational healthcare plan for support, but it was still, nothing had really been done in terms of enhanced transitional prep. The wheels were already off by then. She was very, very poorly. And so that transition, that leap, she wasn't able to do that. And that's when she had her breakdown and we ended up at home. I'm not sure how many years we ended up at home, but I would say it was a good two to three years, we were at home, after that. Recovering and repairing, and we had a holistic tuition service. It wasn't like schoolwork, they came into the home. They built up a relationship. It was very much led by her day to day, some engagement, maybe not another day. Slowly, slowly building up a kind of relationship with someone else where felt different from school. Until eventually we were very fortunate that we were offered a trauma informed setting. So, a small setting. It doesn't use any behavior policy. It uses restorative practice. it's interest based curriculum mostly. Very different feel as well. There isn't that obvious hierarchy between staff and students. I often say these places are a bit of a shock when you first see them, because we're so used to schools ourselves, we're so conditioned. And then you go and see these other places and they might not look very shiny, you know, they might not have all the equipment. But if they've got that kind of heart and ethos there, that's really what you're looking for. I went full of my usual cynicism that have built up over however many years of disappointment and people misinterpreting things. But I actually broke down and cried when I went to see this place and I said, I feel like I can let go. I don't think you realize as a parent how much you're doing until you feel that you can hand a little bit of that over to someone else. That has been a huge part of my own healing from these experiences, being able to just pass that over and not feel that pressure myself about that environment.

Leisa Reichelt: 15:23

My son went briefly to one of those supported non-mainstream settings as well, and the first thing they did was hand us a clipboard with about a hundred different ways they could support him. I had a similar experience for years and years and years you've just had school saying, well, what do you think we should do? And it's like. Surely you know more about this than me. I've had one child. You've had thousands. Surely you have ideas. It'll always be, well, what would you like to do? Like, but to get a clipboard, just go. Why? Why has it not always been like this? From day dot?

Louise Rogers: 15:57

We briefly had, some trial days in a trauma informed setting and I had a similar experience. After the first day I went home and I cried, I cried because I thought, oh my goodness. Finally, I found a place where I can trust these people to look after my son. I can trust them, and I didn't know I was carrying it until it all came out,

Eliza Fricker: 16:21

you don't know what you're carrying until you can put it down, do you?

Louise Rogers: 16:26

no.

Leisa Reichelt: 16:28

It's interesting though, Lou, your son and my son both didn't make it work at those schools

Louise Rogers: 16:35

No.

Leisa Reichelt: 16:36

did, and I wonder whether the fact that Eliza's daughter had that time at home before she went, I mean

Eliza Fricker: 16:42

That kind of repair, restore time to reset can be quite helpful. All children are different, but sometimes they need that recovery time. I remember my mum, a real West Londoner, tells it how it is and, I had one meeting with our local authority and they were sort of throwing all these suggestions of places that would be totally unsuitable. And she said they could offer you Disney World right now and it wouldn't work. And I was like, yeah, you're absolutely right. Whatever, right now wouldn't work.'cause we're not ready. We are not there yet. So, and I say that to parents, you know, if you do find these places, they're so rare. It is great you found it, but make sure it's the right time if you can. But you know, we don't know this stuff. We're just doing as we go, aren't we? Hindsight's a wonderful thing.

Leisa Reichelt: 17:28

That's the thing, isn't it? Because I think you're sold on this idea that if you can just change the settings. To the correct settings, then everything will work. It's like, try the headphones, try the chill out room. Try this, try that, you know, if I could just get the settings right, it'll work, that's just not right a lot of the time. Is it?

Eliza Fricker: 17:47

No.

Leisa Reichelt: 17:50

I would love to hear you talk through this journey a little bit from your perspective, Eliza, because we know you now as like the guru who can draw and find the words and the pictures that explains to us what we're feeling and experiencing before we even know it. I assume you weren't like this the whole time. How have you learned and experienced this throughout, your daughter's experiences?

Eliza Fricker: 18:16

I mean, I'm amazed when I speak to other families'cause they seem to have so much knowledge, imagination and stuff I had nothing of when I was going through. I was completely naive to all of this. My child's nearly 18 now, so. I was going through this a long time ago and there wasn't even social media talking about it. Much of this has been learning as I go and mistakes is part of this. And I think when we are under scrutiny with the school system, it feels like we can't make mistakes. I've drawn myself looking quite manic, hoovering a lot of the time because, I became this person that was terrified of being seen, you know, not to be managing, coping. And Dr. Naomi Fisher, who, you've already spoken to before, We've talked a lot around that kind of'mum's very anxious' narrative. And she said, well, I'd be really worried as a professional if a parent wasn't anxious in this situation, that would be a red flag for me. Not the other way around. But I felt that I had to uphold this appearance of perfectionism, which was absolutely stifling. And something that I don't think isn't a problem for parents now, I think it's still always gonna be there because we're under that scrutiny, but it's something I try and own a lot more now and embrace that, you know, I am a flawed human being. Hence why I draw myself with, messy hair. I'm not this perfect parent by any means, and we are not, I think traditional parenting. It's very kind of formulaic. It kind of tells you that you do X, Y, Z and this will be the outcome. Whereas we know when we parent differently we are not parenting with those guidelines. We are ultimately having to wing it a lot and you know, we are gonna get it wrong. We're probably gonna get a lot of shut ups from our children as well. I think that's important message to convey. This is not about perfectionism or becoming a perfect parent or a perfect family. And moving away from those pressures that we put on ourselves. I still have lots to write about in that, it's endless really the material in terms of that stuff. And I now have a teenager, so there's even more material there as you navigate the next, because it doesn't stop being a parent, does it. You sometimes think you've got a handle on it for five minutes and then it changes again.

Leisa Reichelt: 20:57

Yeah. Five minutes is about right, I think. So, when your daughter was much younger and still attending the school, were you very much of the mind that your job was to get her to go to school.

Eliza Fricker: 21:12

Yeah, absolutely. And I felt like I could just do that and we kept that facade going, we were just about hanging in there. We were hanging by our fingernails by this stage. But that facade, of seemingly still going to school. That's why we talk about this dropping off a cliff face. It can really feel like that when that school element goes for whatever reason, it feels like what is next? School is a massive. Well, I call it a kind of false anchor, if you like, but it tells other people that you're doing things right. It's the same as when we get asked about exams or how much screen time or how many vegetables you do, all things that we kind of hang on to and put pressure on ourselves to be able to do. And it's quite a liberating place when we don't feel the pressures of those things as much, and usually that's offset because we have the green shoots or the glimmers that come in through doing things differently. And with that our confidence grows. This is better than it was before. We are not having those meltdowns anymore. I think it all works in sync. Once we start to do things differently and get those green shoots and glimmers then our confidence grows and those other voices hopefully become a bit quieter in this and we've become less concerned about those other things. And one thing that became quite powerful for me was to start saying, I don't know. I used to think I always had to have the answers. And, and often I meet those really boring, really generic questions that everyone feels they've got to ask you. I now meet them with, I don't know. And that's my kind of pushback on it and talking about what's working, I think we get into a thing when things are bad, where we've only got bad things to say, but over time we can start to sort of talk about what's good and what's working. As we get more confident with it.

Leisa Reichelt: 23:18

Eliza, you said that, at the time you were going through all of this, there was no social media support groups and everybody learning together How did you come to a new understanding?

Eliza Fricker: 23:28

I think over the years, particularly by the end of it, I started to go to a lot of these meetings and parent groups that were offered by our local authority. It started to take on a bit of, I mean, I've got a surreal sense of humor anyway, but it started to become more surreal and almost nonsense. I was sitting there and thinking, this is missing the mark. This is so far from where we are at. I was sitting in these rooms where parents were talking about distressing situations they were in, and then we'd be offered, five minutes of mindfulness or once we were offered a scented candle, and you just think you've got no idea what is going on. There'd been some little changes, along the way. Things like not worrying about being late in the morning, or having the odd day off, it was still very hard to hear my voice when we were in the system. But once we were out, it was really just about getting that connection back and, and I think the hardest bit, there's a few hard bits, but I think one of the hard bits was I got to a point and I thought. I've lost this connection with my child. You know, they're broken, I'm broken but we were in different places. Being at home, it was about repairing ultimately and getting us back. And that's what I thought. I've got to get us back. We know school is a short term investment. We are lifelong with our children. I've got to get this back and I, I thought about a lot of my childhood. I call them the original low demand parents, but I suppose they were parenting in a time where they didn't have the gaze of social media or worrying about that stuff. And my parents were. You know, they had their faults, but they were pretty low demand. That was really helpful for me my dad was a political cartoonist. He had that surreal sense of humor. He was at home with us and we had a lot of fun. He used to make up games. Ridiculous games that were hilarious. We used to draw together I'm bringing that stuff back. That was the stuff I loved. And I remember from my childhood, I'm bringing this into the home you know, forget all the other stuff. The most important thing is we are having a nice time together. That was what I brought back those memories of what, what I remembered were, were good for my childhood, that I wanted my my child to remember too. And so yeah, taking that pressure off with a lot of playfulness. Surprisingly we didn't end up with a, feckless, reckless, rude, misbehavng child, we just had, connection.

Leisa Reichelt: 26:04

Yeah. It's so important, isn't it? Keeping that connection strong between you and your child, is just such a, precondition for doing well in the future way more than passing some tests at school?

Eliza Fricker: 26:17

And that feeling. I think what we would always remember if, you know, think about our childhood is. Did our parents have our back? You know, that's what will be remembered. I really feel it's not about whether you get it right or wrong my mum used to iron the sheets for the bed. I'd never do that. It's about do they have my back? Do they get me, that's the stuff that will be remembered and treasured.

Louise Rogers: 26:38

I've noticed here in Australia that over the last, few years, parents are a lot more confident about speaking out about the difficulties their young people are having and, advocating for changes in the education system. Are you noticing that in the United Kingdom as well?

Eliza Fricker: 26:57

I think parents are amazing advocates because they do know their children best. There is definitely pushback and I suppose the most radical one is ones that, you know, pull their kids out of the system ultimately. I do worry because the numbers are incredibly high. Now we've got a government that's very difficult to read on most things, who we thought were gonna be a bit more progressive, who are doing some very bizarre things. We've also waiting on a White Paper on the Special Educational Needs that keeps getting pushed back. It's meant to be in the autumn. We're meant to get that. It is a worry because this government are talking about inclusion. They're talking that they're gonna meet all children's needs and therefore we won't need these healthcare plans that we have over here. It's always a worry that. Our voices getting louder will not be the voice of change, but it, well, it could be the voice of change, but the wrong way. It could mean the government go harder on families. A lot of Europe, you're not allowed to Home Ed. They've put a big, tax on alternative provision here. They said it was for private schools, independent schools, which people assumed were the higher echelons like Eaton and things like that. All of them have got a 20% back bill. Now that's led to a lot of schools thinking they may have to close. It's always a worry that when our voices get louder and we start to find different ways the powers that be get tougher. In the UK we got the introduction of the national curriculum, but we've gone very hard line on attendance and fines. Parents just want the option to have other options, but sometimes it feels like they make that harder

Louise Rogers: 28:43

for

Eliza Fricker: 28:43

parents to access or they, there is always the threat that they might make it harder for parents to access.

Leisa Reichelt: 28:50

Let's finish by talking about how your daughter's doing now, Eliza, in this new educational environment you said she's nearly 18 now, looking to the future, how are things feeling and how are you two thinking about, what the future's gonna hold?

Eliza Fricker: 29:07

she's doing good. She's got herself a little part-time job. She's, you know, out and about. You know, she's doing stuff, I suppose, that still takes enormous amount of scaffolding to do that for her at times. You know, it's, it's in and out, isn't it, with the scaffolding. I suppose it's, we're comfortable with that sort of uncertainty now. We're in that sort of intense period where we have. We've, we did GCSEs and we have A Levels, and then kids go to university. It's very intensive. I don't know what she's gonna do, she doesn't know what she's gonna do, but uncertainty is OK now. I can sit with that a lot more than I would've previously. I don't have that sadness or sorrow around missed opportunities anymore. We are just doing it differently, but the rewards are there. Having a child who is well, is lucid in conversation and able to communicate. Those are the bits that matter much more than all the other bits. We were joking before we came on. Hitting midlife, my friends are all going through not knowing what they wanna do and did they go on the right path through their own life. So, you know, I think uncertainty is there through life, it's really about getting to a place where we can sit with that and be okay with that, the most important thing is having a child who is well and happy. When When we've had children that you don't know if they're gonna make it. That's what we want most, just a well and happy child.

Leisa Reichelt: 30:41

Yeah,

Louise Rogers: 30:44

Yep.

Leisa Reichelt: 30:44

Eliza, if you had a time machine and you could go back in time and tap yourself on the shoulder and give yourself a little bit of knowledge that you didn't have, when do you reckon you'd go back to and what do you reckon you'd tell yourself?

Eliza Fricker: 30:57

I'd probably go back to just before nursery and not have done it. So, you know, be, what is it, what have you got, Byron Bay, where you

Leisa Reichelt: 31:04

I.

Eliza Fricker: 31:04

Well, I'm in Brighton, so I'd embrace the Byron Bay or Brighton of England and, you know, not have done it. Probably. I'd just love to have known that all this stuff that's out there now, I had a family, that I spoke to last week and their child was just about to start school

Louise Rogers: 31:20

Okay.

Eliza Fricker: 31:20

they said, we're not gonna do it. We just know it's not for them. And I thought, wow, because they've got all this knowledge out there, they can make that informed decision. It's not saying they won't ever go or they won't go somewhere, but how wonderful to be able to make an informed decision like that.

Leisa Reichelt: 31:35

And I know you have a million different resources to choose from, but what would be like a resource or two that you would say. Start here.

Eliza Fricker: 31:43

I suppose probably just those webinars that Naomi Fisher and I have done, which you can watch them when you've got time to, and hopefully it just, it just gives you some options.'cause I think that's what we need. I'd never say school isn't for everyone. Even my daughter she will talk now quite fondly about elements of school. These things are complex and multi-layered. It's never simple. Hopefully you'll find things that resonate for you and make you feel a little bit supported with making some decisions that work for you. So, I'm just looking at my bookcase of all my books on there. Pam Leo's book's really lovely. The Connection Parenting, that's a lovely book. Anything that's about parenting first and foremost, I think over the kind of learning element, you know, that's the most important thing to keep your instincts because you know your child best. No one else knows your child best.

Louise Rogers: 32:37

I think your Missing The Mark page has been very impactful for so many parents here in Australia. There is so much of it that we've shared amongst each other, we've discussed amongst each other, and, it's really helped us all process what we've been experiencing. Thank you for that. Because I think it's made a big difference to our parent community to have that resource. Thank you.

Eliza Fricker: 33:06

Well, I'm not saying it as well as Bell Hooks would've articulated it, but we can't heal in isolation. We need community, you know, we need these connections and it's so important because that removes that shame around this and that isolation. We need those connections.

Leisa Reichelt: 33:23

That's great. Alright then let's wrap it up. Thank you so much, Eliza, for joining us. Really, really appreciate your time.

Eliza Fricker: 33:29

thank you.

Louise Rogers: 33:31

Thank you.

Leisa Reichelt: 33:32

What a delight to speak with Eliza today, and I really hope there was something in this conversation that resonated for you. If you want more from Eliza, we've put links to her books, social media, webinars, all the good stuff in the episode notes. And if you found this podcast helpful, please do take a moment to share or subscribe. Maybe even give us a rating or a review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. This really does make a huge difference in helping us get the podcast into the hands of people who have School Can't kids, and have not yet found our community and all the information that we share. And if you've been inspired by Eliza to share your own School Can't Lived Experience with our community, please drop me an email to schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com. It is a very relaxed process to record an episode. Anyone can do it, and I would love to hear from you. If you are a parent or carer in Australia and you are feeling distressed, please remember you can always call the Parent Helpline in your state. A link with the number to call is in the episode notes. Thanks again for listening, and we will talk again soon. Take care.