#66 - School Captain to School Can't - Alex & Laila’s Lived Experience

Content note: In this episode, Laila shares her experience with suicidal ideation during high school. She speaks about this with honesty and care. If you or someone you love is struggling, please reach out to Lifeline on 13 11 14, or if you are under 25, Kids Helpline on 1800 55 1800.

Laila was school captain in year six. She loved school, had great friends, played sport, danced ten hours a week, and pushed herself to perform in everything she did. By the first week of year seven, she couldn't get out of the car.

In this episode, Leisa is joined by Laila, now 23 and thriving, and her mum Alex, to talk through what their School Can't journey looked and felt like from the inside. 

Laila and Alex talk about:

• the exhausting tension of desperately wanting to be at school and being completely unable to get there. 
• the six months in year seven of sitting in car parks, rebuilding trust moment by moment. 
• the year ten meeting where the Director of Curriculum essentially told Laila to give up and leave, and about Laila accepting her graduation certificate from that same person two years later. 
• the role COVID online learning played in making year eleven and twelve survivable. 
• what happened after: a gap year, an Open Foundation course at Newcastle Uni with no ATAR required, and eventually TAFE and a Diploma in Interior Design that she loves.

This is a story with a very happy ending. But it's also an honest account of how hard the middle part was, including a period of serious depression and suicidal ideation that Laila speaks about with characteristic clarity and courage.

Key practical information mentioned in this episode:

• HSC Pathways: In NSW, students can complete HSC over five years with fewer subjects; https://www.nsw.gov.au/education-and-training/nesa/hsc/rules-and-procedures/2026-guide/students-atypical-circumstances
• Open Foundation programs — available at universities including Newcastle; no ATAR or HSC required, more information on the university websites.
• TAFE - often recommended as a supportive environment for School Can’t young people, flexible entry, valuable credential pathways

Transcript

Leisa Reichelt 0:05

Hello, and welcome to the School Can't Experience podcast. I'm Leisa Reichelt, and this podcast is brought to you by the School Can't Australia community. Caring for a young person who's struggling to attend school can be a lonely and isolating experience, but you are not alone. Thousands of parents across Australia, and many more around the world, share similar struggles and experiences every day. I have such a special episode for you today. We love to have the opportunity to hear our young people share their experiences of School Can't with us. And today, we are joined by an extraordinary duo, mum Alex and her amazing daughter, Laila, who are going to share their experiences with us. A content warning. In this episode, Laila does describe a period in her life when she experienced suicidal ideation. In typical Laila fashion, she does an amazing job of bringing us inside that experience. If that's not something you feel able to hear right now, perhaps listen to this one another time. Fortunately though, this is a story with a very happy ending, and so with that in mind, I hope you enjoy our conversation. Alex and Laila, thank you so much for joining us for our podcast today. It's a delight to have you both here

Alex 1:17

Thanks for having us

Laila 1:19

Thank you

Leisa Reichelt 1:20

We are going to talk about your lived experience with School Can't today. So I wonder if you think about the earliest, earliest signs,

Laila 1:31

Mm-hmm

Leisa Reichelt 1:31

when do you look back now and go, "I think it might have been starting then. That's the first sign that there was something going to happen"?

Alex 1:40

You go first, Laila

Laila 1:42

Um, oh, like I honestly think for me, like, from birth it was kind of probably starting to show. I was always quite an anxious kid, I feel from memory for me, and just wanted to be with mum all the time. But I think yeah, school when I started kindergarten, was like tears. That was tears every day. then it kind of, that wore off I think halfway through year one, and then it wasn't until the end of year six it started to come back around. I was getting really, really bad migraines at the time, which then started fear of what if this happens when I'm school? What if this happens when I'm at dance? What if this happens when I'm at training kind of thing. And then that I think is what started it to come back around. But I think as well, like I really liked school. In primary school, I was... I loved it, I feel, you know? And I always had lots of friends and I was always really... Academically, I was really great. Super high achiever. Caused myself way too much stress. Then I think at the end of year six, that's when it started, and then holidays and then year seven I went to school for one day and then not again for six months. But yeah, I'm interested to what mum thinks about

Leisa Reichelt 3:26

Yeah, Alex, what do you think about that?

Alex 3:29

I would agree 100%. I have the exact same story. As a, sort of baby toddler, you were quite clingy to me or your dad. Preschool was never easy but we sort of persevered and you got through it, and you enjoyed so much about it which is why we persevered, I think. And also, Laila was the middle of three children. She has a brother either side. So for my sanity, I kind of needed a break and, you know, all that kind of stuff. And then starting kindergarten, that took half a year to settle in for her. It was tears and trauma every day for half the year, and then something clicked and, I think you had a supportive kindy teacher, beautiful friends. Something clicked, and then the rest of the year was, was fine. And then year one, new teacher, not so understanding. We started back at square one all over again. That took less time, maybe one term. And then she pretty much sailed through the rest of primary school with sort of tinges of separation anxiety at times. But like Laila said, she was a super high achiever. She was doing way too much in hindsight. We should have pulled the plug on some of the stuff she was doing. And, ADHD diagnosis didn't come until many years later, but that made a whole lot of sense when that came because she ticked so many boxes of, you know, how ADHD presents in girls all through primary

Laila 5:22

I think also the reason why I got high marks in a lot of my primary school work was because I was very creative. Everything was always done to, like, the highest extent on presentation.

Alex 5:40

That's so true. Like, If she had to write a poem, she wouldn't just write the poem. She'd write the poem like, create, a miniseries and make her brothers dress up in costume and film it somewhere and then present it to the whole year. It was kinda like putting all this pressure on herself, overachieving. And everyone would be going, "You don't have to do that." And her older brother would be going, "they don't care about that in high school. You've just gotta do what they ask you to do." But she was always trying to people-please and push herself. which inevitably would result in probably burnout by the end of year six.

Laila 6:25

I also was school captain in year six as well. And with that came a lot of pressure for a 12-year-old. Like a lot, a lot of expectation and pressure, which I just find is crazy because I like now being 23, like 10, you know, 10, 11 years older than that, I'm like, oh my God, I was a tiny child. And yeah, a lot of, you know, these adults were expecting massive major things from me

Leisa Reichelt 7:00

What kinds of things were they expecting?

Laila 7:01

Like, my behavior had to be perfect all the time. I had to be public speaking in front of the whole school like multiple times a week.

Alex 7:13

You did love that, in fairness

Laila 7:15

I did love that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but the way I had to present myself, yeah, I remember I got in trouble once for like getting wet in the rain because like I was the, had to be the example. You know, stuff like that. And I think, yeah, we just had a bit more like work to do, which would have been fine, but I think it was on top of I was doing 10 hours of dance a week, and I was doing like two three-hour touch footy trainings a week, and my only real day off was Sunday I think, if I remember. Um, 'cause I would dance on Saturdays. And I loved all of that stuff as well. It's not like I was forcing myself to do it, because I loved it and I wanted to do all of that stuff, and it's not like mum and dad were like, "You need to be the best at everything and da da da da

Alex 8:13

We were trying to talk you out of it, if I remember

Laila 8:15

but I was like, "No, no, no. Like I want to do all of this." And I had friends that did all of that as well, but I think just me that on top of just like how my brain worked, yeah, it just ended up being a bit too much for me

Alex 8:30

And the friends thing is notable too because y- you know, you had friends and you wanted to be doing all of this to be part of everything that everyone was doing Fear of missing out

Laila 8:42

Yeah FOMO, massive FOMO problems, when I was younger.

Leisa Reichelt 8:48

The thing your mum was saying about like instead of just writing a poem, you do like a whole theatrical production. Where was that coming from, do you think? Did you do that 'cause you really enjoyed it and you got excited by it? Or

Laila 8:58

Like, the main part of it was probably because I wanted to do that. But I think, yeah, there's definitely parts of it that were also, like, I need to be the best at everything. I need my teacher's validation, and I need to, yeah, just be the best and do the best. I think, that was my whole thing, and, that was a very ADHD trait of mine that wasn't seen because I was just like, "I wanna be the best at my sport, and I need to be the best at dance, and I need to be the best at the saxophone and the this and the that." And it's like, yeah, it was just unattainable really

Leisa Reichelt 9:48

And did you feel pretty good about yourself at that time in your life? You felt like you were doing well, yeah?

Laila 9:53

I did, I did. I was really, really... I was quite confident. I remember in primary school I would get quite anxious talking to adults. I remember I'd go and talk to like a teacher and kind of tears would well up in my eyes. I don't really know why. It would just scare me. But other than that, I was extremely confident and yeah, but still with a really anxious undertone to it all

Alex 10:28

And I think that's why a lot of stuff went unnoticed. Because the things that would make a normal person anxious, like a stage and a microphone, she would be all over and loving that side of things. So it was really hard to sort of reconcile the, the anxious side of her with this side of her that was just so confident in, in so many ways and doing things that would scare adults. It just sort of was hard to understand

Leisa Reichelt 11:03

So, did really well through most of primary school, feeling good.

Alex 11:08

Last maybe month of year six that you started having panic attacks, days off school and things were getting really difficult. You couldn't go to dance and stuff like that.

Leisa Reichelt 11:21

That must have been really scary, Laila

Laila 11:23

Yeah. It, it was terrifying. I mean, I think, yeah, panic attacks are, are not fun at all. And yeah you kind of like you're dying and you don't know what to do. And I think as a young person, I just, I didn't have any idea what to do really

Leisa Reichelt 11:48

And would they happen at school?

Laila 11:50

No. they would happen before.

Leisa Reichelt 11:55

Yeah

Alex 11:55

Trying to go into school

Laila 11:57

Trying to go. Because I really really, really, wanted to be there. it was like a fight between me myself, and then this other, this just like anxious part of myself, and constantly in a battle with that part of like, I want to be there, but I can't. And I'm confused and I don't know what's going on, and I don't feel very in control of my brain at all. It was just weird and yeah, massive, scary panic attacks and stuff were happening a lot. And that was school and dance and touch footy at the time as well. That was all happening. And like, I remember mum would be like, "Okay, well, let's just go home." And then I would be like, "No." But then like, the only place I wanted to be was at home, but then going home meant that I wouldn't be at school, which is where I wanted to be. So, we'd just end up sitting in the car outside for ages. Mum trying to calm me down or just be like, "Okay, well, we'll just go in for like this amount of time," and then like, da-da, or like, You can always go in and then you can always come home." Just no, and it just, yeah, it was hard

Leisa Reichelt 13:28

Alex, how are you making sense of what was going on at the time?

Alex 13:31

I wasn't. I had no idea what was going on, and that was sort of our first introduction really to, properly to anxiety and panic attacks and panic disorder, that sort of thing. I had no idea what to do, and probably did a lot of the wrong things. I don't even know what I did really when I think back, but, I felt sad for her because after all those years of putting in all this massive effort, I remember sitting in the car, in the car park while the Year Six clap out was happening And

Laila 14:14

Oh no

Alex 14:17

That still gets me. You can

Leisa Reichelt 14:19

Yeah I think there are plenty of people who are there with you, Alex. My son missed his as well

Laila 14:27

Yeah. And I had been waiting, I had been waiting, like, the whole time. I remember, like, you know, seeing the year sixes graduate when I was in kindergarten, seeing them do that, and I wanted... I was so excited for that moment, and then I couldn't.

Leisa Reichelt 14:44

Did you get to do it or No. It's devastating, isn't it? I know that a lot of people will, will have been through the same thing and have a lot of the same feelings. You are absolutely not alone in, in any of these things, unfortunately. It's so sad though, but I think you're doing a really amazing job of really illustrating that horrible tension between the fact that you desperately wanted to be there, and yet you were not able to be. It's, so the antithesis of what people often think, you know, when they call it school refusal. It's like, it's just so wrong

Laila 15:25

I know. I know. And like, just people thinking that I was just lazy and like, just didn't wanna do it, but it was just literally couldn't have been more opposite to that. I wanted to be there probably more than most of the people there, you know? I just couldn't, like-

Alex 15:47

Yeah. Yeah, and like was nothing we could say to take the pressure off. It w- it was frustrating

Leisa Reichelt 15:57

Laila was putting the pressure on herself, right?

Alex 15:59

Yeah. We didn't care about any of that, and it was, was her putting that pressure on herself. I mean, it comes from somewhere. I d- I don't know. Is it the... know

Leisa Reichelt 16:12

Did you bring a psychologist in or a GP or anything like that at this point or

Alex 16:16

I think we might have started looking at psychology, knowing that high school was coming up and wanting to sort of put in a bit of groundwork for that.

Leisa Reichelt 16:28

I think you also, you kind of just hope that it's just a little phase and it'll resolve itself as well, don't you? Like, I don't know whether you thought that, but I certainly at, at points I'm just like, "Well, maybe it's just like this point in time, and then something will shift and it'll all be fine."

Alex 16:41

Yeah. That's always the hope, isn't it?

Leisa Reichelt 16:43

So what happened? Talk us through year seven

Laila 16:45

Well, just quickly to add, I also think, yeah, if I had been seeing a psychologist through that six-week period, it would've probably been CBT therapy, which doesn't really work, hasn't worked for me. It probably would've made me more anxious throughout that whole time, and ev- it would've happened

Alex 17:03

Yeah

Laila 17:03

Um yeah, so I went to school for a day the first day, and it was good as first days go, like, it was pretty good. Yeah, I got really lucky, like my year group were all super keen to be friends and to meet new people 'cause they had been with the same people for six years, And they were lovely. So yeah, I think it was a pretty good day. And then I came home that evening, and I can't really remember what happened. I think I had a panic attack that evening and just completely... And then got in the car the next day, and got to school, and then just couldn't leave the car. Couldn't get out. Yeah. And then for six months after that, I was not at school much.

Leisa Reichelt 18:15

Did you keep trying to go to school every day or is, did it get to a point you're just like, "We're just going to take a break"?

Laila 18:20

No, I think, uh, we tried, I think

Alex 18:25

We, we were pretty relentlessly trying. There were a lot of days that she couldn't get in the car at all. But there were a lot of days, you know, it was that whole just get in your uniform, you know? At least, let's just try and desensitize a bit to even that.

Laila 18:43

Yeah

Alex 18:45

and let's just get to the gate and, we'd be dropping her brother there anyway, so... And it was pretty much six months of just, like little steps, and I think at one point she was saying that she wanted to homeschool, and I was, like, really resistant to that. Knowing what I know about it now, I would've just whipped her out for the year, you know, and calmed that little nervous system and, seen where, where it took us. But at the time, I didn't know anything about it, and I was very resistant to it, unfortunately. So we kept trying. There was a beautiful school counselor who was just amazing. And I spent a lot of time sitting in the office. There was an office next to the counselor. Spent a lot of that year sitting in there with my laptop just researching while she maybe was able to go to the library or just, like, little one class or go to, I don't know, cooking or sport or whatever they were letting her choose

Laila 20:00

But I think it was like, it, I remember it being a like starting off as like, we were just trying to get there, get there, get there, and then realized that was not going to work. And then it was like a put my uniform on for ten minutes because at times it was like I couldn't even look at it without just completely being so cripplingly anxious. And then, yeah, it was like, put my uniform on for 10 minutes and then for half an hour, and then wear it at home for the whole day, and then get in the car and then just drive to the front. And then, and it-

Leisa Reichelt 20:44

so this is like an exposure therapy type approach, right?

Laila 20:47

a, a build on things. And I think as well it took me a bit to trust that I wasn't going to be dragged in there. Because I think there was probably a lot of trauma carried over from when I was in kindergarten, where they literally would rip me from my mum. And so there wasn't that trust really of adults and what they were saying, which is no one's fault. It's like literally, like I've said to Mum so many times, like none of this is her fault. It's literally, and no one knew what on earth to do other than to just drag you in there. And so I think, it took me a bit to trust, like, "Okay, well, if Mum's driving me to the gate, are there going to be people there waiting for me to like, force me to go in there?" kind of thing. So then to kind of build that trust with Mum and that she was going to protect me from these people, no matter what, and that I could then trust these people to listen to me and what I wanted took a bit of time.

Leisa Reichelt 22:20

It's really interesting because, on the one hand you've got this kind of exposure therapy approach which would imply that you had this kind of irrational anxiety about school.

Laila 22:32

Yeah

Leisa Reichelt 22:33

But then, on the other hand, you're talking about, you know, that importance of rebuilding that relationship, rebuilding that trust, and that trust and that relationship actually being the foundation. And they're kind of like two quite different things really, aren't they?

Laila 22:50

I was extremely lucky that Mum didn't have a full-time job and could be with me all day, every day, and come to school with me and sit there in a school counselor's office every day. You know? It just took time, like building trust and meeting teachers, and it was really important that everyone knew what was going on. That was really important to me. Because then, yeah, you bump into teachers and they're like, "What are you doing outside of class?" 'Cause this, this school was quite strict. Everyone had a school diary. You had to get it signed to be able to leave class to go to the bathroom. So Then if a teacher saw you outside of class, they'd go, "Where's your diary? let you out of class?" So it's also that fear of like, what if there's going to be a teacher that'll come up to me and they'll drag me into my classroom because, you know.

Leisa Reichelt 23:57

Yeah

Laila 23:58

it was important for me that everyone knew.

Leisa Reichelt 24:03

So that you could feel safe there

Laila 24:05

totally. And I think that's also what taught me to start building the confidence to be able to also advocate for myself as well, which is scary a 13, freshly 13-year-old, like saying to adults, like, "Actually, no." Like

Leisa Reichelt 24:29

you were saying before when you were talking to teachers in primary school that even then when you were feeling at your best, that would still often cause you to get like tears welling up from anxiety. So that's pretty intense

Laila 24:40

and I would even, like, in primary school, like, probably in high school, like, I'd get too, like, anxious to ask to go to sickbay. I'd want to go... I never went to sickbay, like, not once because I was too scared to be like, "I feel sick," like, "I want to go home." Yeah, to then have to kind of, just have to advocate for myself, yeah, in front of authority figures

Leisa Reichelt 25:07

How did you manage to get to that point where you felt like you could do that?

Laila 25:10

I think it just took time and it also was just like, "I'm either going to have to do this or they're going to force me to do something that I don't wanna do." And then by the time I was in year 10, I was like a weapon at telling teachers off. being like, "You don't know what is going on. And I would just refer them to my year coordinator or something to a chat to.

Leisa Reichelt 25:37

You've managed to get a, a sense of self-confidence and self-awareness around it, obviously

Laila 25:42

did, I did, definitely.

Leisa Reichelt 25:43

What's your take on this, Alex?

Alex 25:47

Yeah, I don't know. It's, it's hard not to have regrets in hindsight as a parent. I think everyone in this community, all 17 and a half thousand of us would have some regrets and, you know, in hindsight, would've done things differently. We were lucky. The counselor was amazing. Actually, when you were saying, Laila, like when we're sitting in the car, in the car park and that sort of thing, the counselor, I might walk in and go, "I can't get her out of the car." You know, and I'm feeling all this pressure as a parent. Again, in hindsight, I'd be like, "Who cares?" You know? But I, I was still in that compliant mode and can't get her out of the car, and she would say, "Well, I'm not coming to the car." Because she's like, the car is her safe place and I'm not coming anywhere near it. And I was like, "Can you come and just talk to her?" "No." Like, if she can't come in. No, but in a good way,

Leisa Reichelt 26:54

Mm. Respecting Laila's boundaries

Alex 26:57

Respecting her boundaries, respecting that's her safe place. I'm not going to ruin that. So she was amazing and some of the teachers were amazing. By the end of year seven she was almost full-time attending. Then she went, "I wanna change schools." And we just went "what?"

Leisa Reichelt 27:22

What was going on, Laila? Why did you wanna change schools?

Laila 27:25

I don't know, I just didn't like, I just didn't like that school. I had great friends there. But they were very rigid, and just very strict. And one of my friends from primary school, she's still one of my best friends now, she, was at this other school, and I just decided I wanted to go there.

Alex 27:52

My memory, I, I think there was just more going on socially at the second school, and you were sort of at that age. You were 14 nearly, and you were just wanting a bit more in that, think

Leisa Reichelt 28:09

Interesting. So like you reflected before on the fact that your mum didn't have to do full-time work and could be there for you all the time and how lucky that was. Alex, I wonder how lucky you felt at the time?

Alex 28:25

That's a really good question.

Laila 28:27

But You're probably so envious of dad.

Alex 28:33

I was like, "You get to go to work every day." I was sort of going from fulltime stay-at-home mum mode to retraining and going into something different. So I finished that course, but then I had to just drop everything for the next six years because as we all know, it's really hard to commit to anything. I'm just in awe of how parents both work full-time through this situation. I, I don't know how I would've done it. I couldn't even commit to coffee with a friend unless that friend was okay with me canceling last minute because you never know what the next day will bring. I did feel a bit frustrated, like my life was on hold for, for a while there. But at the same time so grateful, so grateful that I was able to do that. And it's not lost on me how fortunate a position we were in where I wasn't under pressure with work as well because, yeah, total respect for people juggling all of that.

Leisa Reichelt 29:56

Absolutely. So year eight, new school. Did that solve all the problems?

Laila 30:05

No. Definitely not. Um, no, it didn't. But

Alex 30:11

It did for a few weeks

Laila 30:12

Yeah, for a few weeks it did. And then, yeah, for the rest of my schooling journey, it was like that up and down and up and down, and some years were probably worse than others, and some months were worse than others. But, yeah, the whole thing is they're like, "Okay, let's build up to,like, get you back." But realistically, it's like that just didn't work for me. The system, the way that it was, the hours that it was, how long the days were just didn't work for me. I would go, sometimes... I would go for a day, and then I would burn out after one day because I was so exhausted. And my sleep especially high school was terrible because I would stay up as late as I possibly could so the next day wouldn't come as quickly. I just was like, if I go to sleep, then I'm going to click and I'm going to wake up and I'm going to have to go to school, and I don't, I don't wanna do that. So I'd stay up to, God knows how long in the morning, that was also my, like, peaceful time as well because was like, "Everyone's asleep. The world is asleep. No one's pressuring me

Leisa Reichelt 31:33

Yeah I, I feel you. I love that time of night as well for exactly the same reason.

Laila 31:37

Yeah. Yeah. No, and I still do. It's still, like, my time. Like, I go to bed definitely earlier than that, but, like, when I get into bed that's my chill time. Whereas some people love the mornings and, like, that's their chill time. Nighttime is me. But-

Leisa Reichelt 31:53

you, what were you doing late at night by yourself then?

Laila 31:56

Um, I would've just been on my phone for... Until I was about 15, Mum would take my phone at, like, 9:30 PM. But yeah, I had, I had my ways around that. Um,

Alex 32:14

Did you?

Leisa Reichelt 32:15

Best not get into that right now,

Alex 32:16

had a banner

Laila 32:17

um, but yeah, I would just be like, yeah, just on my phone or watching YouTube and stuff. At the time, I loved terrifying crime documentaries. That was kind of my thing because I think it would take watching something so awful, would kind of take me out of what was going on with

Alex 32:44

It's interesting that, isn't it?

Laila 32:47

Because now, like, I don't really like watching that stuff because it makes me not feel good. But back then I think I just was not feeling good, so I would, yeah, I would just watch documentary after documentary and cooking videos and all that, and I'd watch that, yeah, until really late at night. And then obviously getting up in the morning to go to school is hard. And I had great friends. I am so grateful for them and how much they were able to understand and to help me at such a young age. I was so scared to tell people what was going on, and I think in year seven I didn't. I told people that I just had, like, a chronic migraine condition, and that's why I couldn't be there. Because people understand physical things more than they do mental things. It's ridiculous, but that's a thing. Like, and I always was like, "If I had a broken leg, you guys wouldn't make me any

Leisa Reichelt 33:55

And

Laila 33:56

this."

Leisa Reichelt 33:56

what would you have told them? Like, what was it that you were scared to tell them, do you think?

Laila 34:00

I don't know. I just... People didn't understand that at the time, and I was scared that they were going to think that I was weird. And I had confident persona, which was me. It was one side of me, but I had this other side of me that was, that, yeah, it was not that at all, and I wanted people to see this one side of me. I think it wasn't until maybe year 9, year 9, year 10-ish, I just was like, "Oh, I can't, like, keep lying anymore." And I just was really honest with my girlfriends, and they were incredibly understanding. it actually kind of people talking about their own stuff and their own struggles with mental health. But yeah, it was also like even that, I had that and I had friends in all my classes, but it was just like I just couldn't. And I think I would get things, like, um, they would give me these cards that I could show the teacher and, like, it was like red means that I wanna leave, orange means I wanna leave for 15 minutes, whatever. But I was like, "I'm not doing that."

Leisa Reichelt 35:32

This is the girl who wouldn't even go to sick bay

Laila 35:33

Yeah. I'm like, not doing that because everyone's going to see me doing that, and they're going to think I'm weird." You know? It was this whole, like, worrying a lot about what people thought of me and even if I just leave class without even showing a card, people are going to go, "Where's Laila been for the last half hour?" Then they're going to think I'm weird. It was this whole like, oh, well, you can always go and then you can always leave. But it was like, no, no, no, leaving is part of the whole thing. But yeah, I loved recess and lunch. Those were my favorite times of the day. Class is just so... I just, none of it was interesting to me. Even the electives, I found like, I was obviously really creative. and my grandma taught me how to sew when I was, um, like 15, 16. I loved sewing and I still do it. But I didn't wanna do textiles because I did it a year, but then they do the whole portfolio and you have to explain every tiny little thing you do. So they, you've just ruined a really fun thing, you know? Like, for like, yeah. And I was just kind of like, yeah, like this just doesn't interest me doing it. So

Leisa Reichelt 37:08

Yeah. So you've, you have all these, all these feelings about going to school. You've got an incentive to go, which is your friends, but the actual schoolwork is n- not incentivizing 'cause it's not interesting and engaging for you

Laila 37:21

Yeah. exactly. And still I managed to be like, uh, just above average all of everything, which was just crazy because I was never there, um, learning any of this, of the content.

Leisa Reichelt 37:41

Um, you somewhere presumably along this journey got your ADHD diagnosis. How did that come about and, and was that helpful?

Laila 37:54

Yeah, mum, you go,

Alex 37:56

So her, her younger brother was the first one to get his ADHD diagnosis. So by this point, he was in year eight, and being a boy and, you know, he, he ticked more of the obvious ADHD boxes So, you know, the alarm bells were ringing. And then we went to an information evening, and they were talking about ADHD in girls, that was the first time we'd heard that take on it. it, it, it was completely different presentation than her brother. And so we were like, "Oh my God, they're talking about Laila." And

Leisa Reichelt 38:41

What kinds of things were they talking about that, that sort of ticked boxes for you for Laila?

Alex 38:45

The, the high achieving, the perfectionism, the people pleasing, the, the overwhelm, um, the burnout, you know, that sort of thing. Plus, you know, she was creative and she loved moving her body and, you know, all of that stuff, which is really acceptable when you're channeling it into dance or sport, you know? So she flew under the radar because of all the things that were going well for her.

Leisa Reichelt 39:19

She had some really good coping mechanisms, obviously.

Alex 39:22

but the emotional regulation side of things weren't always great for her and... But that's the stuff that doesn't get noticed, right?

Leisa Reichelt 39:31

Well, but it's 'cause it just gets labeled as anxiety, doesn't it?

Alex 39:34

exactly. So that diagnosis came in year 10, and it just made a lot of sense, you know? And it, it enabled a few more supports at school. It meant people were maybe a little more understanding. A little more compassionate But, it didn't fix anything, obviously. It just sort of, brought a bit more understanding to the situation, I think. When I think back to all the people at school that made it okay for her to be there, like, they're the ones that you remember. And it wasn't necessarily the teachers of the subjects that she liked. Like, maths was your worst subject. Am I right?

Laila 40:27

I hated maths

Alex 40:28

Hated maths, loved Mr. Maths Teacher. He was a gem, and was fun and, and real and, It was teachers like him and, and like Miss, Learning Support Teacher

Laila 40:48

She was amazing. and these teachers, I think common theme with my Mr. Maths teacher and my Mrs. Learning Support Teacher um, just treated us like we were their friends. Still in a, I'm your teacher and you're a student, but it was like a, I respect you as well, and therefore we all really respected them. There was a not so amazing Mrs. Director of Curriculum that called a meeting with her and my year co and my PC teacher and mum and dad

Alex 41:33

And the principal

Laila 41:34

And the principal.

Leisa Reichelt 41:36

Big meeting

Alex 41:37

Rolling in the big guns

Leisa Reichelt 41:39

no, I feel scared just hearing about it

Laila 41:41

Yep. And in like a conference room in an office sat at a big table, like them on one side, me and mum and dad on the other side saying, "Okay, well, yeah, so your attendance is at like 20%. We realistically don't think that this is going to happen for you, so I think that you should think about leaving." Yeah. Obviously I just burst into tears and I was like, "You guys don't get me. Like, I'm trying so hard to do this and I wanna do this. Like, please, let me do this." And thank God Mum and Dad were there as well because, like, what the hell? Like, so intimidating, such an intimidating thing. But, um, She ended up giving me my graduation certificate in year 12, that woman, and I looked at her and I was like, "Thanks.

Leisa Reichelt 42:43

No thanks to you

Laila 42:44

take that one. I'll take that one from you," and just big middle finger to you for like... I'd also never met her, you know? She didn't know me or, or my story or what I was going through or what I thought. She just came at it from an angle of, "You're lazy teenager and you don't wanna be at school, therefore I think you, that you should leave." Not like a, let's hear from your side, like, what you really want and let's see if we can do this for you. Something that really helped my attendance was COVID online school. That literally, I think, was the thing that it possible for me to continue really

Leisa Reichelt 43:41

And where, what, what year were you in when that hit?

Laila 43:43

I was in year 11

Alex 43:45

Yeah So we- you're in, we're in lockdown for, you know, most of year 11 and 12?,

Laila 43:52

Yeah Parts of 12, yeah

Leisa Reichelt 43:57

Wow. So you basically got your HSC because of lockdown is what I'm hearing. Gosh

Alex 44:03

Yeah Well, technically, well, you finished year 12.

Laila 44:10

I did

Alex 44:11

You didn't actually get the HSC

Laila 44:14

No, I didn't get my HSC, so I, I did Pathways

Leisa Reichelt 44:18

Mm-hmm

Laila 44:19

cut my subjects down to three instead of five. But I still

Leisa Reichelt 44:24

Finish school

Laila 44:25

Finished school and I got my certificate and that's all I wanted. I just wanted

Alex 44:29

Yeah

Laila 44:30

to be there with my friends and, know. Maybe I would have dropped out earlier if I wasn't so terrified of judgment. I think where we live and where I went to school and the area that, yeah, we live in is, is there's a lot of expectation. There's a lot of 'you drop out of school, and you won't achieve anything' and you have to go to university and you have to get a corporate job, and there's just this whole kind of thing around it. So I remember there was talk about, there were a select few people that we knew in our kind of bigger circle of, of friends, like a few people that dropped out and that was just met with so much judgment. And I, me being my people-pleasing and my rejection sensitivity because of my ADHD, I was terrified about what people would think of me.

Alex 45:37

Yeah, because the, the flip side of Laila wanting to be homeschooled in year seven was then by the time we got to year nine and 10, we were saying, "Can we please homeschool?" You don't have to do it this way.

Leisa Reichelt 45:52

yeah

Alex 45:53

It doesn't have to be like this. Especially after year 10, it's like there's so many other ways of getting an education. We don't have to do this one plan A mainstream. But by that time it was her refusing, refusing to drop out of school. But also unable to go a lot of the time. So we were kind of just left in this position of just advocating, advocating, advocating, day after day after day to get them to allow her to stay till the end.

Leisa Reichelt 46:30

And, Laila, a lot of that driven by social shame.

Laila 46:35

Yeah. I don't wanna get left behind, like with my friends. I wanna be with my friends. And I don't want people thinking that I'm weird. Again, it's that, whole thing. I also... another thing that I wanna touch on before we or I forget was the... yeah, I had a lot of anxiety, obviously, around that time, and was extremely exhausted, and very depressed as well at a lot of the time, which I think is very much so why I'm doing things like this, is because, yeah, I also... at times, and at one big time, my depression turned into, like, suicidal ideation. And, you know, it's like the system could have taken my life and that's really sad, you know, for a lot of people that that might be the case for them. And I was really lucky that I had things other than that to, to live for. But I think all I wanted at the time was to just be normal. I remember just saying to Mum and Dad, like, "I just wanna be normal. I just wanna be like everyone else, and I just wanna go to school, and I just wanna be with my friends," and, and all of that. And, and yeah, it really, really took it out of me, and I think after I finished school, still now I'm recovering from that. All of that definitely is still a massive

Leisa Reichelt 48:32

Yeah

Laila 48:33

part. But I think, yeah, just before we make it to year 12, that was kind of the reality of my life in, like, year 10, year

Leisa Reichelt 48:46

okay to talk about it a little bit more?

Laila 48:48

yeah Yeah

Leisa Reichelt 48:50

What was, at those points in your life when you were thinking that, you know, suicide was an option for you W- what, what were the thoughts that were bringing you to think that?

Laila 49:08

Um I don't know. I mean, I think, yeah, it was just that I just I think just all together, like all of the anxiety that I was suffering from and that like brought the depression on as well, and I was just living in a constant state of stress and I just couldn't catch a break from it. And I was just like, "I can't live like this." And, and obviously there was that fear that isn't about school and that I'm, this is how I'm going to be for the rest of my life, I don't wanna live like that, you know? And it was also, one of the major things was that it would be a lot easier for everyone else around me if they didn't have to deal with any of this as well. That was a big one. Um, my friends and mostly my family and, and, and mum and dad and, and my brothers as well obviously, like it's a lot like on, on a family and yeah, for my, my brothers probably didn't get as much attention as they probably deserved when they were young. Um, sorry Um, but yeah, it was, it was hard and it was a really shit time, and I'm so grateful that like I had the, you know, loving support from my parents, like, and that, you know, took all of my mental health like very seriously, you know? And I, yeah, I ended up in, in hospital in emergency because I, I, yeah, came home and I was just like, ooh. Like I still had something in me where I was like, I've just... I, I do wanna, I do wanna be alive, you know? One just small piece to be like, there was still something in me. So yeah, I just basically home and told mum and dad that I needed to go to the hospital, and that's what we did. And a whole nother conversation because that whole system is, is just messed up. Um, and yeah, just again, I was very lucky to have the support from my parents and, and from my friends as well, like during that time to be able to recover and get better from that. Yeah

Leisa Reichelt 52:29

I'm so sorry that you went through that, but I am so glad that you were able to

Laila 52:32

Yeah. Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt 52:34

again and that you had, you had your mum and dad there supporting you as well. Yeah,

Laila 52:40

exactly. Um, yeah. Scary times,

Leisa Reichelt 52:45

right

Laila 52:46

extremely grateful

Leisa Reichelt 52:48

But I think that thing as well that you say where like, how do you tell the difference between is this just a school thing or is this a me thing?

Laila 52:55

Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt 52:56

yeah

Laila 52:57

And I, I, I didn't, didn't notice, I didn't realize that it literally was a school thing until I left, and I was just like, "Oh my God, I'm free." Like

Leisa Reichelt 53:14

But free from your own pressure as well by the sounds of it. Like, it feels as though it didn't matter what anybody around you was doing, like, had bought into this pressure and you'd kind of, like, applied it to yourself.

Laila 53:26

Yeah. Yeah. totally. And yeah, like in year 12, yeah, I switched to Pathways I think maybe in year 11. And that was helpful because my sleep was so bad that, you know, sometimes I wouldn't start school till like 11 or 12. so that was helpful. But that's not also saying a lot of mornings I would wake up and vomit and then go to school. Like it was bad. It was bad. And, um, yeah, and just drive to school and sit in the car park and be like, "Ugh, I hate this," but... And then just go and do it and have some fun with my friends and come home and I would just be exhausted when I came home, but, you know, do it all again and,

Leisa Reichelt 54:27

Or stay up late, keep the day going for as long as you can? Yeah. Yeah

Laila 54:31

but, you know, I am so glad that I did it. I-- That proved my, to myself that I can do anything. Like I, I really, I really feel that now whenever I doubt myself or what I'm able to do, like I'm like, "Well, I did that," that was crazy. But also it's like I, I wouldn't... Yeah, I would never put myself in a position that again, I am glad that I did it. I don't know. And in hindsight, I, I'm glad that I did it, yeah, it's-

Leisa Reichelt 55:21

if you had a daughter who was going through what you went through, would you, want her to push herself to do it? Or would you, like, pull her out and get her homeschooling from much earlier on, do you think?

Laila 55:35

Um Yeah, I would, I would probably do the homeschooling option because now there is a lot more stuff around homeschooling. I think when, when homeschooling was kind of like suggested as an option for us, it was just seen as like a, you're sitting at home with your parent and there's nothing and, and you know, you're not, you know, developing those skills.

Leisa Reichelt 56:10

A, a lot, a lot has changed in the last 10 years, hasn't it? It's a lot different, yeah, and our understanding as well

Laila 56:15

I think I've hopefully, you know, by the time I have kids, there'll be a lot of change. Hopefully. Hopefully

Alex 56:27

Fingers crossed

Leisa Reichelt 56:29

Well, I, I think you're helping to make that change by sharing your story, Laila and Alex. Alex, you've been very quiet for a while there. That must have been pretty tough to listen to some of that stuff.

Alex 56:41

It's, it's interesting to hear her take on it. We haven't talked about it for a while.

Laila 56:46

Yeah

Alex 56:47

So yeah, it's interesting to hear Laila's version of how she felt through all of this. But I, I think for anyone listening who's, got a kid who, does want to stay or do some version of finishing, Pathways is a good option. So, like, you can take five years to do your HSC. Schools don't tell you that usually. but you can advocate for that. And so she did three subjects over two years, and then could have finished the other units in the couple of years following that. But that was never going to be the plan. The reason for doing it for her was to graduate with her friends, you know, feel like she's finished, buy the dress, go to the formal, that kind of thing. And that's, that's what she managed to do in her own way.

Leisa Reichelt 57:49

Kind of makes up for year six, right?

Alex 57:51

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you're right.

Laila 57:55

Honestly, yeah, 'cause we, we, you know, we had an online graduation 'cause of bloody COVID

Leisa Reichelt 58:01

gosh.

Alex 58:02

Yeah.

Leisa Reichelt 58:06

Right. yeah

Laila 58:07

we were there but like our parents couldn't be there or

Alex 58:07

So we were at home crying over our champagne.

Laila 58:13

But just that whole thing, like I look back, you know, I had all my like girls at mine and we had a little like mimosa in the morning and a little breakfast and then went into school and like just standing up there in front of everyone and knowing that, yeah, like my best friend was watching at home as well, bawling her eyes out. And like that Mum and Dad were watching as well. It was just like such a proud moment for me, and I think that up for all of the the hard moments and yeah, my year co was so emotional and, and there were a lot of teachers that were just so proud that I had done it. So yeah, that was really nice.

Leisa Reichelt 59:07

Well done

Alex 59:08

I think we need to just touch on the uni thing. I really wanna get this message out to other parents. So Laila had a year off after that, and she worked for six months and then went traveling for six months, and then came back and had a bunch of friends up at Newcastle Uni, so she wanted to go to uni. So we're on the phone to the admissions lady saying this is the situation and are there any options for her? And she talked about their Open Foundation, that's what it's called at Newcastle. It's like every uni has a, it's like a bridging sort of course. Six months, anyone can do it. And Laila said, "Oh, but I don't have an ATAR." And she said, "That's okay, darling, you don't need an ATAR." And I went, "Well, she didn't, she didn't actually finish HSC." Doesn't matter. You don't need an HSC." So next minute she's at Newcastle Uni,

Laila 1:00:14

Living on campus,

Alex 1:00:15

living on campus,

Laila 1:00:16

the best time

Alex 1:00:19

finishing... She finished her open foundation and then went straight into marketing or something

Leisa Reichelt 1:00:25

Um, and what was that like doing that six months of study, having come off the back of those years of really difficult, hard school times?

Laila 1:00:33

Well, it was on my own terms, you know? I chose... So you could choose, like, four subjects. I chose, you know, four random different things. and yeah, it was what I wanted to do, and it was on my terms, and it was the subjects that I wanted to do, and it was up to me. I didn't have to go to the class. You had to have attendance, but, it was, you know, if I fail, I fail and I do it again, you know? But I was like, "You know what? I want to do this. I wanna pass it, so I'm going to go." It was like, it was 20, 30% uni and the rest was just most fun year I've ever had, you know? And, and then, I got into visual communications, and then I kind of was like, "Oh, uni's not really for me, actually," "I've decided." I worked for a bit. Work is still a little bit hard for me sometimes because it is still that feeling of like, I'm here and I can't leave, and I'm scared. For the most part it's been really good. I worked in disability support for a while, and now I have found my thing and I'm at TAFE and graduated my Cert IV I'm just about to start my diploma,

Leisa Reichelt 1:02:06

In, in what? What are you doing? Interior design. There you go. Wow

Laila 1:02:12

And yeah, and I just love it. And TAFE is a super supportive environment and, like, it's just the best. and I just am loving what I'm doing. So I think, one of my big things as well is, just because your kid doesn't wanna go to school doesn't mean that they will not be successful. I always knew that I had really a lot of potential. I just wasn't doing things at school that I was able to show that potential. And I also was at work a few months ago, and my old Mrs. Learning Support teacher walked through the door. It's just so crazy. We saw each other, I haven't seen her since, like, year 8 or year 9 And she was like, "Oh my God." "And you work here?" And I was like, "Yes. And I'm at TAFE," she was like, See, there were, there were a lot of teachers that said to me that you probably weren't going to amount to much, and that I was maybe going to become a drug addict and be homeless and of these things because I wasn't able to go to school, and she was just... It was so lovely seeing her. It, like, makes me emotional 'cause it was, like, a huge moment of like, oh, like wow, like, I've, I've come so far and I've proved all of these people wrong, and that, like, I am capable and like, you know? And that's kind of my main message to kids and parents as well is just this, a small part of life and it, it feels like it's everything, and it does go for a crazy amount of years, but before you know it, like, I'm now five years out of school and I'm, I'm so happy, you know, where I am in life now and, grateful for where I am and that, like, education, just because school education didn't work for me doesn't mean that no kind of education works for me. And everyone's on their own path, and you don't need to go straight to uni after school. You don't need to get an ATAR. There other ways to do things, and there's no pressure on how you get there.

Leisa Reichelt 1:04:59

Amazing.

Laila 1:05:00

yeah

Leisa Reichelt 1:05:01

That's super cool. That is a very amazing message. Thank you for sharing that. Alex, if you had a message for kids or parents or professionals who are listening, who are supporting kids through a similar journey to what Laila went through, what, what do you want them to know?

Alex 1:05:19

Oh, so many things. Um, probably to just slow things down and not be in such a panic to, to fix things. As a parent, I think we were always in a hurry to like, "What's the problem? We've, we've gotta fix it, like, so we can move on, and if she has too many days off, that's going to make it even harder to go back. Quick, quick, quick, we need to fix it." And I think it would've been better just to slow everything right down. Like, Laila missed a lot of her high school, like a lot, and she's doing great. It's not the be all and end all. And we had a discussion the other day actually, about success and, you know, what is success? And I, I feel like success for our kids is finding a job that they love, that can pay the bills, that feels right for their nervous system. And Laila might or might not, I don't know, ever work 9:00 to 5:00 Monday to Friday. Like, that might be too much for her. But it, it's finding something that you can do sustainably that's going to make you feel okay, and I think that's the most important thing. Um, I've got lots of messages for professionals supporting kids or teaching kids and like... But I think the main one is just everything boils down to relationship and your relationship with that kid. It doesn't matter if you're their teacher or not, if they do the subject you're teaching, that doesn't matter. Doesn't matter if you're the library teacher or, or the person at the front office. Like, they're often the most important people, it's all about relationship, and nothing else matters more than that

Laila 1:07:42

Yep

Alex 1:07:43

They would be my final words.

Leisa Reichelt 1:07:44

Very, very wise words. Well, Alex and Laila, thank you so much for spending so much time with us and sharing so openly and descriptively and, and honestly. It's, yeah, it's a real gift. Really appreciate it

Laila 1:08:00

Thank you so much

Alex 1:08:01

Thanks Leisa. Appreciate it

Leisa Reichelt 1:08:03

What an amazing pair. It was such a privilege to have the opportunity to hear and to record Alex and Laila's story, and I hope you enjoyed listening to it, too. If you know someone else who needs to hear this, please take a moment and share this episode with them. And don't forget to subscribe or leave us a rating or a review. This really does help us get this podcast in front of more families who haven't found our supportive community yet. If you have some feedback for us or perhaps you'd like to share your own School Can't lived experience, we would love to hear from you. You can email us at schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com And if you are a parent or carer in Australia and you are feeling distressed, please remember you can always call the parent helpline in your state or call Lifeline on 13 11 14. Please do not hesitate to reach out to ask for extra support. Thank you so much for listening. We will talk again soon. Take care