Two Taps and Friends

Dye & Golburgh | 3 Criminal Defense Lawyers Analyze: Nancy Guthrie Disappearance #61

• Daniel Rosenberg • Episode 61

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Host Daniel Rosenberg and attorneys Michael Dye and Lloyd Golburgh unpack the early stages of the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, the 84-year-old mother of Today show co-anchor Savannah Guthrie. Recorded amid breaking developments in February 2026, this conversation examines ring camera evidence, ransom communications, forensic challenges, terrain difficulties, inter-agency dynamics, and the human impact—offering measured perspectives on what the facts suggest and why closure remains elusive.

⏰ Timestamps ⏰  
00:00 🎬 Teaser 
01:38 🕰️ Full timeline – from late-night disconnect to confirmed abduction and family pleas
03:04 🩸 Scene evidence – blood, unknown DNA, press conference, and initial searches
04:08 💰 Ransom details – legitimate indicators, deadlines, and communication challenges
05:18 🔍 Footage deep dive – hesitant approach, gun holster, shrubbery attempt, and visible errors
06:39 🗺️ Terrain realities – desert isolation, dark properties, and search complications
08:08 👮‍♂️ Sheriff controversies – information tensions, FBI friction, and public statements
09:09 🤔 Lloyd’s grounded view – forensic tools, AI triangulation, lack of proof of life
12:58 🧠 Michael’s analysis – intruder’s apparent inexperience, odd decisions, and sophistication gaps
19:27 💊 Health factors – pacemaker signal, vital medications, IMSI catchers, and urgency
23:14 🕵️‍♂️ Private vs. public investigation – utility, limitations, and liaison roles
32:22 ❓ Core questions – target selection, opportunism vs. planning, border theories
40:25 🙏 Closing reflections – family empathy, hope amid uncertainty, and ongoing watch

Looking back at the ring camera details and early evidence shared here, what element of the intruder’s actions still stands out to you as most puzzling—and how might it influence the investigation’s direction today?

#NancyGuthrie #Disappearance #missing #missingperson #truecrimestories #kidnapping #fbi #tracking #ransom #truecrimepodcast #unsolvedmystery #attorney #investigations #news #podcastcommunity #lawyer #cops #legalanalysis #politicalnews #LawyerLife #RealTalk #CourtCase #CourtroomDrama #JusticeSystem #LawAndOrder #CriminalLaw #CriminalDefense #debate #podcast #law

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SPEAKER_03

Nancy Guthrie kidnapping, it's all over the news. First thing they find is a small blood trail from what I saw in the front doorstep, small blood trail. They demanded$4 million in Bitcoin for her return by February 5th. And they said that the amount would increase to$6 million if they hadn't received the money by February 9th. These are the different shots the ring camera got. And it looks like, you know, the guy's standing, it looks like the guy's trying to put shrubbery there saying over to cover it.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, they're using AI to, for example, when he when he comes close to the camera, you see he has a pinky ring on. Right. So they're literally using AI to try to triangulate, you know, what that design is, where it may have came from, where it was purchased, you know, that they're able to do that now.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, they've been flying over the city using, I think they're I think the device they're using are called MZ Catchers, and trying to uh lock on to the signal of the pacemaker. But so far, nothing yet.

SPEAKER_02

Welcome back, attorney Michael Dye.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, Danny.

SPEAKER_02

And attorney Lloyd Goldberg.

SPEAKER_00

Welcome to Two Taps and Friends.

SPEAKER_02

Grab your favorite drink.

SPEAKER_00

Get comfy, and let's dive into another episode of Two Taps and Friends.

SPEAKER_03

Welcome back to Two Taps and Friends. I'm the host of your show, Danny Rosenberg, and today I have my co-host panel on. Uh, very happy to have them back, but talking about current events again. Welcome back, attorney Michael Dye. Yeah, Danny. And attorney Lloyd Goldberg. How are you doing? These are pretty much my co-hosts at this point. Um, I bring you guys on anytime we have some uh issues going on that I want to talk about. And uh this episode I want to talk about, you know, the the Nancy Guthrie. Am I saying her name right? Guthrie? I think so. Guthrie. Nancy Guthrie Kidnapping. It's all over the news. Um I'll start off with a little bit of a kind of timeline on what we are, and then we'll all chime in on this, you know. So this Nancy Guthrie, her, uh, as most people know, her daughter is Savannah Guthrie. She's the one of the co-hosts on the Today Show, right? In the morning. Uh big, big analyst, big um uh personality. I I don't watch the show, but I I know she's very, very big. And this was in, I think the whole thing went down February, I think it was February 1st or February 2nd. And uh the mother, Nancy Guthrie, lives in Tucson, Arizona. And uh around two, I think, I think it they the next one morning at 11 in the morning, she normally would come on to this church stream show, and the people that knew her saw that she wasn't there, they got concerned about her, and they started, they called family. Family couldn't get a hold of her, and about a noon, about noon uh on I believe it was February 1st, uh, I could be getting the date wrong, they immediately notified law enforcement. Law enforcement starts to try to figure out where she is. They go back and they see that around you know, at midnight, uh at midnight they don't stop hearing from her, and about 2.28, they see her pacemaker, pacemaker disconnects. They go and they investigate the house and she's gone. Obviously, she's gone, and and uh nobody knows where she is. As far as age, I think she was 84 years old or saying, so she's an elderly woman. She disappeared. Uh it immediately, you know, gets all over the media site because of um who it is, right? Uh they the first thing they find is a small blood trail from what I saw in the front doorstep, small blood trail. I I don't know if they linked that to her or him. I think they linked that to her, so they knew it was her blood. Yes. They also found DNA in the house that they couldn't rule. They had no family member matched, so they're investigating that as well. Um the February 2nd, they come out and they give a press conference. The law enforcement come out and give a press conference, and that's, you know, the the they confirm that she's taken against her will. That's what confirmed the actual kidnapping, as opposed to her just being missing. Um, then they start getting then Savannah Guthrie comes out with her siblings and goes on Instagram and goes live and makes a plea to everybody to for any help that they can give in any way. Um, ransom notes start coming in. Uh, February 2nd, they get an email to a local Arizona network that had some detailed and sensitive information in it, so that they think it's um legit. And in the ransom note, they require, I think it the it meant it mentioned the specific information manager, was it said damaged floodlights, uh the location of an Apple Watch, things that they pretty much knew had to be coming from the kidnapper. They demanded$4 million in Bitcoin for her return by February 5th, and they said that the amount would increase to$6 million if they hadn't received the money by February 9th. That's what the that's what that's the timeline on that. They then the law enforcement is kind of being quiet about what they're doing, but the news are sitting on the house, and the house is here, you see it in the background. Um, they start searching the septic tank. At some point, they search the septic tank, which is obviously, yeah, I can assume they're trying to see if they can find a body somewhere. Um the family comes on again. Savannah and her sisters and brother come on, and they make another appeal to the media. Um, then Tuesday, February 10th, something interesting happens. Um, they go and they pull the ring camera footage. They're able to extract ring camera footage and they have footage of an intruder, right? And and Dan, could you put up the photo of uh put the force shot up first if you could? So here we see the uh here we see this is the four shot. These are the different shots the ring camera got. And it looks like, you know, the guy's standing, it looks like the guy's trying to put shrubbery they're saying over to cover it. The guy looks like he's wearing two masks. Um, it's very hard to get an identity. Can you go individually on the single shots, Dan? In whatever order I'll tell you. So this is the full image of the guy. And it looks, if you see there, he has a gun in his waistbelt. So we know this is you know, you assume this is the kidnapper, right? What's the next image? Show me the next image. This is him trying to put shrubbery. If you look, you see, he looks like he looks like he has two masks on, right? They're thinking he has two masks on. I don't know if they can do eye recognition or whatever they can do now with technology. What's the next image, Dan? Oh. And all right, so we can keep that up for a minute. So that's the image that they find, okay? Um, so then they start getting all these leads coming at them left and right. They start investigating him. They they go to a house, they go to a house a couple miles down, they do a search warrant on there. Turns out they were searching the home of a driver that made deliveries that they suspected. That was all over the news. They cleared that guy. Um, and here actually, this map that's up right now that the viewers and listeners can watch, this is a map of the area. And the terrain specifically is an issue for when we talk when law enforcement reports, the terrain's an issue because it's all desert. This is in Arizona, it's all desert. And apparently, like, you know, these ring cameras can capture what's in front, but literally, from what I see from some of the testimony and and testimony interviews from law enforcement, that you could literally be in the yard or in the front and not be seen because it's so dark. It's just a desert, it's dark and it's rough terrain. These properties are they're almost like estates. They're set off from each other, they're not very close to each other. So neighbors know each other, but they don't interact as much. Um, and this map up here shows the Guthrie home. And then it shows, if you can see where the home was rated, that's about two miles down. This is where her sister lives, Annie, over there. Apparently, she would go there frequently. I think she was coming from there that night. But then they find a black glove mysteriously in the side of a road about a mile away from her house, that I am assuming they think has something to do with the with the kidnapper. Um, and uh, and then there's all this other elements coming out, you know, about the sheriff, the sheriff that's in charge, his name is Chris Nanos, and um he apparently was part of the Kathy Griffin shooting and all these other things. So he's known, and he's kind of known to stumble on its comments. He's been making sloppy comments. Uh, at one point in a press conference, he said something about her being taken from bed, and then he had to backtrack and say, no, she didn't get taken from bed. Um, and then apparently there's some allegations of the FBI, the FBI's on this, and they're saying that he's not been forthcoming with them and that he's withholding information. So I'll turn to the panel. First of all, this is all over the place, right? Um, I'm gonna I'm gonna turn to uh probably Lloyd first to get his take on this. What is your take on this situation? I I just gave a lot of information, but give me your take on this and what you found in looking at this.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I I my gut tells me that she's not living. Um obviously I have no evidence of that, but that's what I you know I feel like from the start. Um I'm thinking that whoever these people are, they might be in Mexico. Um I am more interested in the way that they're conducting the forensic investigation. Um so, for example, what they're doing with respect to the guy on video and what they're doing with respect to the gloves. For example, you know, at that time when they found that black glove and they thought it might have been related to the kidnapper, right? It turns out there's a bunch of black gloves laying all over the place from people that were helping with the initial search that discarded their rubber gloves.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_01

So, but there's other things too where they're using AI. You you you sort of off the cuff said, you know, I don't know, can they use you know facial recognition or or whatever to identify this guy? So the tools that they're using are super interesting. For example, um, yes, they're using AI to, for example, when he when when he comes close to the camera, you see he has a pinky ring on.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_01

So they're literally using AI to try to triangulate, you know, what that design is, where it may have came from, where it was purchased, you know, that they're able to do that now. Um and that's they're they're actually doing that with the internet search. I don't know if you've seen this where they're where through the algorithm and through AI, they start going into the internet to try to find out how many times Nancy Guthrie's name was searched prior to the kidnapping, how many times her address was searched, you know, things like that where they can start to use AI to triangulate triangulate what someone may have searched up. And they you you know, it's it's all amazed that part is the the part that's most amazing to me. So I I mean my my gut reaction based on the little that we actually know um is that she was killed probably either in the house or close to it, and she's her body is has been disposed of somewhere. Um, because with all of this you know, requesting of first Bitcoin and then six million dollars in cash, they're still in 20, we're at 23 days now, there's been no proof of life.

SPEAKER_03

Right. And it's interesting to me, like I mean, you talked about I wonder about the glove. Like, it is it the feds that are looking at that glove? Is it local law enforcement? Because all of us know local law enforcement and the feds are two different entities. Well, I know that they were well much more advanced.

SPEAKER_01

Well, that was one of the initial conflicts from my understanding was that they were fighting over which lab, you know, the evidence should be sent to, whether it should be the local law enforcement or whether it should have been the FBI.

SPEAKER_03

Right. I think people don't realize how convoluted that gets. People think as people assume that law enforcement agencies, feds, and state just cooperate and they don't realize the tension is there, right? They don't understand that the law enforcement, this is their case of the century, right? They don't want to give this up. Right. Right? This sheriff's probably holding everything close to the belt, which is ridiculous. In the fact that we want to find this woman, right? Like, what do you what are you doing, right? It doesn't make any sense. Um, and then it's interesting to me that this guy was clearly careful enough. I don't know about careful, but they're not finding prints. I don't know if they found fit prints. He's wearing double masked, he's geared up pretty well. Uh he walked right into a ring camera, but why would he toss one glove out the window and the other one not? It just a lot of this doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_01

Um and there's a lot of misinformation. You know, there's there was information that there were gloves found inside the house. Right, right. Um incidentally, I think that the septic tank search was probably less for a body and more for evidence, something that got flushed down a toilet.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, right, right, right.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, inside it. Oh, right.

SPEAKER_03

I wasn't even thinking. I was thinking, I don't know, if they're looking at a tank, yeah. I don't even know. I didn't even think that out. But yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00

Dig it up, open it, put them in.

SPEAKER_03

Right. What do what are your thoughts on this, Mike?

SPEAKER_00

Um, okay. Editing thoughts. All right.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, edit good, good. Edit your thoughts. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

The person who did this, at least the person who they sent, is an absolute moron.

SPEAKER_03

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

All right. So maybe he did drop a glove out the window. But it's entirely possible. Okay. All right. First off, you you know that he's not particularly familiar, or you'd assume that he's not particularly familiar with the house. So you're probably ruling out delivery drivers who'd been there before, uh, family members who've got a couple of years. Well, clearly not.

SPEAKER_03

They went and searched the delivery guy's house.

SPEAKER_00

Uh yeah, I'm just thinking that you'd rule that out because anybody who's been there before would know that there's a ring camera. Right. All right. And uh so they would uh they sell jammers on uh Amazon where you can just walk up and you can scramble the signal and it you would take precautions.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_00

All right. So walking up, being seen by the ring camera, trying to hold it up with your hand, and then taking branches and going like this while looking directly into the ring camera tells you that this guy probably is not too skilled, hasn't done this before, and is likely an idiot. All right. Um, so you're and also when you you look at the gun, I mean, I don't even know what kind of gun that is.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_00

All right, and I'm I'm kind of a gun person.

SPEAKER_03

Is it holstered? Yeah, it's holstered. It looks like it's like a white, white holster. I don't know if it's white, I mean it's a holster.

SPEAKER_00

I can't tell it's why because of the camera and the light, but it looks like a semi-automatic. It's got a long, long barrel. Yeah, it's got it's got a really long barrel, and it might be a revolver, but I've never seen it in the city. He's wearing it on his crotch. Yeah, yeah. Why is he covering his dick with uh you know it's just I don't know.

SPEAKER_03

I think it's maybe he knows he's on camera, is all I can think of.

SPEAKER_00

That's just not a a good place to have your gun. Um, so then we moving on and touching on a couple of things that Lloyd said. Well, let me back up one more second, too. Just using common sense, you can go ahead and say, okay, probably not somebody who's been there before because he walked right into the ring camera. All right. And then so also probably not family because they walked right into the ring camera. Doesn't mean that somebody who's been there before or family didn't send them.

SPEAKER_03

But he walked up to the front door, too, by the way.

SPEAKER_00

There was like no sneakiness about this at all.

SPEAKER_03

Except for the mask.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, just the mask and noble mask. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

His approach was a little hesitant. He it's not like he walked up confident.

SPEAKER_00

No, yeah, he walked back and forth.

SPEAKER_01

It was like a little hesitant. They I believe they've since cleared the family officially.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Now you look at you know the ransom demands. The the problem with the ransom demands is you don't even know who they're coming from. It could be coming from somebody who has no connection with the case, but writes uh uh Well, they they had it multiple ones, so that's funny.

SPEAKER_03

You say that one of them gave them a Bitcoin wallet and they put like$300 in there.

SPEAKER_01

So that there would be an account.

SPEAKER_03

Or or that to see if he would pull it out and maybe make a mistake or something somehow. Well, all you have Bitcoin but put three thousand in, it's 300 gonna do this. Somebody's gonna go risk that, you know?

SPEAKER_00

Well, Bitcoin's not as untraceable as people like to think. I agree, I agree. And I when people for when they first started tracking Bitcoin, the the premise that they went on is sooner or later, real money has to change hands. Right. All right, so that's it. But now they they've gotten into like exit nodes and all sorts of stuff. So when they went ahead and said, give me a Bitcoin wallet, they just by the wallet address, they can tell where, you know, what like is it a ledger address? Is it a crack and account address? Is it uh buying Binance? I mean, they can tell right away where this one came from. And so then they go ahead and put money into it to see the activity in the wallet. Right. So, you know, then because there's a chance that it could have been an address for what's called a crypto tumbler, which would break apart the transaction and send it on to other people and to other places. However, I mean, just judging by the the complete lack of sophistication um for how this all went down to begin with, it's I don't think the whoever is behind it was sophisticated. Well, first off, if they were sophisticated, they would have used Monero, all right, because Monero is uh encrypted. That's a better cryptocurrency for criminals. Um it it it's it just looks I look at it and I think this is completely unsophisticated. The thing that would I would be looking at if I were the police is why was this person selected? All right, right. And you know that that's the big issue is why was this person selected? There are a lot of rich old people. All right, why this one?

SPEAKER_03

With the most publicity that you could probably ask for exactly.

SPEAKER_00

So when when you figure, you know, and it that's that's a tough question to ask, right? Why this one? But at the same time, that's the that's what they've got to figure out. Um whether now, whether it was, and again, these are all just hypotheticals, whether it was a a family member who sent somebody, or whether it was a delivery driver who tipped off a friend saying, hey, there's this rich old lady here. We don't know. But at the same time, I'd like to think that they're going ahead and searching everybody who they suspect, searching all their cell phone records and things like that. Um, the other thing that they can do, and we we've seen it in cases, and one that we've been working on right now, is where people go ahead and take their cell phones with them on crimes and they do the geofence location. Oh, yeah. And where they triangulate the person's location. Hopefully, the person was not stupid enough to bring his cell phone with him. However, judging by the rest of it, it's a good possibility that the person did.

SPEAKER_03

Well, hopefully he was stupid enough. Yeah. Um, but let me ask you this: both of you, like, was it anything taken from the house? Was there money taken? No, from what I heard. So, what's the so why wouldn't what leads you? I mean, I understand why you would say I think that she's passed on, right? Because we're not supposed to say that the the D word on alive. Um, I think that just logistically, you have an 80, 80, something-year-old woman with a pacemaker, it's turned off, like it's not looking good.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and she she was she was on all kinds of well, we lost signal.

SPEAKER_03

Lost signal.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, lost her pacemaker was connected to pacemaker, was connected to her cell phone. Okay, and uh the pacemaker lost connection with their cell phone. Doesn't mean the pacemaker is not working, right?

SPEAKER_03

Doesn't mean she's not she doesn't have the phone.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it just means that the pacemaker is out of range from her cell phone. Okay, and and from what I understand, they haven't been able to lock in on that pacemaker either on its signal, wherever it may be Yeah, they've been flying over the city using I think they're I think the device they're using are called MZ catchers and trying to uh lock on to the signal of the pacemaker, but so far nothing yet has well we and she was on a lot of medication that was necessary medication, medication that kept her alive and healthy.

SPEAKER_01

So did they take the medication? No, okay. That's the problem she's short of her medication. So what but we have to agree and somebody would have to be caring for her, right?

SPEAKER_03

Which is not easy, and so just inconceivable. If there's no robbery, there's maybe they're withholding from us that it was a robbery, but if we don't know that it's a mob, that the intent we all agree would have been to take her. That's the intent of this break-in, right? It seems so for ransom, right? It's as simple as that. So whether some of them were knucklehead or not, they there's there's ransom here. How many? It's been two, three weeks almost now, which is not a good sign.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I mean, it could be that it was uh an attempt at a burglary and they didn't expect that there would be anybody home, or they got inside and it turned out there was no cash anywhere, and then they said, Let's take the old lady. I I don't I don't know. And there's so many possibilities. I just don't it's hard for me to believe that there's a connection between whoever took her and this ransom bullshit. Because it would be proof of life. We it would it would be it would be more urgent, and it doesn't seem like that that there is. So also if you send proof of life, you're opening yourself up.

SPEAKER_03

The feds are just waiting for something like that so they can track something in the background.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I mean, they're sending messages, right? They're still sending uh at least up until the last time anyone's actually made a public statement, which I think was over eight days ago.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_01

Right? At least up until then, they were they were still at least. We were hearing through the media that there were still communications going back and forth between the family and them. Right. So it's just a matter of what are they really doing. One of the other things. I uh one more before I lose this thought. How do I the only other thing I can't account for is that the apparently the ransom requests, one went to the family and one went to TMZ, right? Right. And within a very close proximity of the time of the incident. So that would be the only thing that would lead me to believe that there's some connection between the rant the ransom note being legitimate and the kidnapping, right? Because they came so fast. So that means someone had to know about it. So if it was just an opportunist saying, hey, oh, look what happened. Let's you know see if we can hack them, you know, someone from Nigeria, you know. They were ready to go. Then yeah, but these were already ready to go. Right.

SPEAKER_00

But uh the other thing is, even though they're sending a ransom note, it doesn't even if it is the people who did kidnap her, it doesn't mean she's still alive. They could be like, oh, no, no, of course. You know, she, you know, she's dead, but they don't know that. So let's send it. But one of the things I wanted to talk about.

SPEAKER_01

Or let's, you know, we killed her and let's let's pretend we didn't let's pretend that she's alive gives us cover and time to get, you know, to to cover our tracks. I think that's also possible too. We're really being told very little.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. One of the things that like the pacemaker I'd compare it to is a lot of people have the tile on their uh, you know, so that they can find their keys. Because I always lose my keys. So at any rate, when you go ahead and you download the tile app onto your phone, what happens is it doesn't matter if your phone if it's near your phone or not. Every time somebody with the tile app goes by your phone, your tile connects to their tile app. Whether they're logged into you or not. Yes, correct. And so if you lose your keys, you can look on there. And since enough people have tile apps, it'll say, Oh shit, you left them here. And you can all so you can always tell where your keys are. Um now that also can be not good if you you have somebody stick a tile in your car, um, because I mean it's an easy, simple way to track somebody.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Um, but at the same time, you know, the pacemaker apparently is the the same thing where, at least from what I've heard, is that it will connect with other devices to show the location of the individual. So if that's true, then there should be some sort of trail of where she went. Um, the other thing is not many people have pacemakers, not as many people have pacemakers as they have tiles. So, you know, it depends on what devices it connects to and what devices it doesn't. Right. But it does seem like they are looking at the pacemaker as a way of trying to find where she is.

SPEAKER_03

Well, if we see blood, we do know that she probably got struck at least, right? Or if she's bleeding somehow for something, she is so that's that's not a nice thought either. Um it's interesting I saw something about the about the town voting against red light cameras. So they have that excluded from their repertoire of evidence, too. Um, they are doing like license plate readers. They have the like, but those are I guess are private industry people, they were saying. Have you heard of this? The license plate reader people. Yeah, well, I mean, I would say not just not the technology that the government uses, but I guess there's private people that do that. Oh, no, I haven't heard about that. They're using that in red light cameras. So, but the red light camera thing, that's a big I mean, in fact, you know, I have red light cameras that backfires on you, right? Yeah, I mean, it would be so simple to just see what kind of cars we're leaving there at 12 o'clock, one o'clock in the morning. Like, I can't believe that they have no that's the first thing that these people would look at.

SPEAKER_01

I can't believe that they would well again, we don't know what we're not being told. But that's you know, it's interesting to me because it does seem, you know, like it's unsophisticated, but uh, you know, on the other hand, the evidence is that they don't know anything and they and they're not close to solving this. So maybe it's more sophisticated than we think.

SPEAKER_03

This sheriff looks he does not look like a smart guy. No, he keeps like he loves the attention too. But he keeps blurting out like if she was taken from bed and he gave that information out, like how bad of a bad is that, dude. Like you just gave sensitive. And then he comes, oh that was just bullshit, and I, you know, he said I was just it was loose, it came out, it's not true. I'm like, oh god, dude. Just some.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I think it's it's probably important that people know that when the police are doing an investigation, they hold back certain information from the public. Sure. So that way the individual who comes forward, they can ask them to fill in the blanks. And if the person doesn't get that information right, then they know it's uh a false. Right.

SPEAKER_03

And I would assume where specifically in the house and from where she was, and that's also would be very relevant and very something that you would not bring up, right?

SPEAKER_01

And that's also part of the conflict between the law enforcement agencies, is each mistrusts the other in terms of what information they're going to expose.

SPEAKER_03

And they're not as trained. I'm sorry, but let's local law enforcement is not as sophisticated as the feds, you know, and like people get mad. We did a whole segment on ice and all that, and oh, they're all a bunch of Yahoos. Okay, maybe some of them, but as a whole, you know, we know as defense attorneys, when when the feds come at you and they have a they we've had to rent offices just for the goddamn discovery that they sent us, right? So they come heavy.

SPEAKER_01

When you're lucky enough to get discovery, right?

SPEAKER_03

Or yeah, they just and it's a 98% like conviction rate. So they're pretty good at what they do. Uh and it's funny, and that brings me to another issue that I kind of have a problem with. So they're talking about the family either hiring a private investigator or they have hired. I'm not really sure based on the time of the reports I was looking at, but there was talk of it. I don't know if they've done it already. And if you ask me, like if it's my family, well, what I know with private investigators these days, okay? And maybe I can think of one that I could think maybe is a serious. I think no offense to anybody listening. Or two, two. There's two, there's two, two or three. Yeah, two or three. I've got my guy. I think most of them are a joke. I'm sorry. I think that they're utilizable. Listen, and short of the investigator that is willing to go camp out outside a place, take a boat, and go in the back of someone's yard, and we know about if you know there's a specific guy I'm thinking of, he's really good. You know, shout out to Rob Crispin. But, you know, other than those guys that are really willing to get their feet wet or hands dirty, the guys, most of them are just Googling. They're sending me the biggest joke shit. Like, that's not what you need. Stuff we can do ourselves. I don't think it would help. I think if you have the feds and you have the law enforcement, I can understand the thinking of like let we pay somebody money and we could control a little bit more and get more information, have access to it. Well, that was what I was gonna say. Maybe as a liaison, yes, right? As a liaison would be useful, but I think if anything, it would just be counterproductive.

SPEAKER_01

What do you think about it? No, no, I agree with that. I I think that I think that sh surveillance is what we need from our private investigators. Right. But it's also the most tedious and the most expensive. Right. Um, but there's there's no substitute for that, as far as I'm concerned. You know, when you're a private investigator, we're we're are we better investigators than most people I know as defense lawyers or criminal defense lawyers. Right. You know, I don't know anybody that's better investigator than uh than we are. Right. But so what what we don't have is the time to sit and watch, and that's what we need.

SPEAKER_03

Right. When you send me a 20-page background report off of uh a truth finder or whatever, that's not impressive to me. You're sending me the guy how many cars he's owned. Right, and you paid$30 for it, and you're charging me$150. Dude, come on. Yeah, like you know and you know how many times I've had an investigator, I've had one investigator call me one time. He goes, I've been made. I go, come again. I'm like, it's your first day. I've been made. I'm like, what do you mean? You've been made. He goes, they saw me. I'm like, well, where were you sitting? Right in the front. He just parked right in the front, just taking pictures, and they're like, dude, I've been made are you getting arrested, sir? Like, you know, but I've been made idiot.

SPEAKER_00

You know, I mean, also part of the thing, uh private investigators, like in Florida, uh, we have depositions in criminal cases, which they don't have in a lot of other most other jurisdictions. Right. So in North Carolina, we would actually have uh get a private investigator to go out and interview the witnesses. Oh, that's right. So, and so if you had a guy that was like uh had 30 years as a sex crimes detective and you go out and he would interview the the witnesses, that way you could impeach with a prior inconsistent statement. Um so in in Florida, we don't use private investigators that way. Um most of the time it's just uh, you know, people hiring them to see who their wife's grew. Right.

SPEAKER_03

No, but that's it, that's a you I forgot about that. That's useful when they do that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so with those guys, you you want to hire the guy who's had the most experience as a detective or really or worked with the FBI or something like that.

SPEAKER_01

I think there are other motivations too. I think the liaison is probably the biggest one. In other words, you know how it is. You're you're it's like your client, you know, like you you know in your mind what you're doing on your on your daily job, but your client is bothering you with things that you know aren't necessarily relevant for the purposes of defending that client. Right. It's more about emotional and hand holding, right? So it's I think it's also the same way with these big investigations where the Guthrie family is probably not getting a lot of information either, right? Right. So, and they think, well, why aren't you interviewing this person? And why aren't you interviewing that person? Right. And the detectives, of course, they have their methodology, but you might have somebody who has money and who's insistent who thinks that you should be interviewing that guy. So the high that that's why they want a private investigator, somebody that more of a yes man who will say, Okay, I'll interview that guy.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_01

There's a lot of that.

SPEAKER_03

It makes sense. When you're kidnapping, it's just too many things could go wrong. I mean, just as a as a criminal, you this is a monumental task, right?

SPEAKER_01

This is why I don't believe that she's yeah, what do you think? You're saying you think that this is why I don't kidnap doesn't pass the sniff test. Not in any way. So tell me what your thought properly is. Yeah, I think it's either a family member. I thought that from the start. I mean, either that or it's you know, somebody close to the border. Arizona, you know, this isn't that far from the border, right? The Mexican border. Yeah. And I think that like it might have been a burglary that that that went wrong, you know, and they had to get rid of the body, and then they're back in Mexico.

SPEAKER_03

Well, no, huh? Burglary that went wrong, because otherwise, if it was a burglary, you find a person there, you would never take them with you. You would have to kill them.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And then they had to take the body out, maybe.

SPEAKER_01

That's what I think. And they buried her somewhere and they disposed of the body somehow, and then they're using the ransom thing as a as a screen, you know, to provide cover for themselves. It's the only thing I can think of.

SPEAKER_03

The rest of it doesn't make any sense. Something though. Right?

SPEAKER_01

It it doesn't.

SPEAKER_03

You must have jewelry in the house. You must have something. Something. Yep.

SPEAKER_00

I was gonna say the Mexico thing doesn't make too much sense to me. And the reason a couple reasons why. First off, um, the border town took closest to Tucson's code, no galas. Um, yes, I've been there. Um we know that I love the border town.

SPEAKER_03

You actually got deported. That's how deplorable is your father. The quote from his father was Michael, if your actions are so deplorable that Tijuana is deported. Literally got deported from Tijuana if you call it deportation. Exportation. They just kicked him out of Tijuana. They put him in one of those evil Kinever. Like, what the hell is this? They slingshot at him like take your guy back. And we're like, shit. Is that dying?

SPEAKER_00

I wasn't the one who stood.

SPEAKER_03

Let's not go into the city. It's the clean show.

SPEAKER_00

Not Tijuana, uh Tucson. But it's still about 45 minutes, hour and a half um drive to Tucson. So it's not just a hop, skip, and a jump. You'd actually have to take the person down. And then getting the person across the border.

SPEAKER_01

That's what no. I mean, I uh no, no, I don't believe that that I believe that they dispose of the body.

SPEAKER_00

Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I mean they would have had uh you know Yeah, because going over to Mexico, they have some kind of check, right? They're looking through your car and not coming back. They kind of look at you.

SPEAKER_01

Like, are you Michael? Are you Michael Dye? No, go on, you know, like you keep asking him to go on a trip with us. I think we should go on a trip with him. Never.

SPEAKER_03

Never, he needs to go go through Israeli security, they'll better make sure he doesn't have anything weird in his pockets, you know. That's what we need from Michael Dye at all times, you know. We'll probably end up with a full escort 24-7 if he crosses Israeli board. Like we got somebody on him, put an agent. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's up to no good for sure. Assuming he can get it at all.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, the thing, I mean, there is a there is a minimal inspection going down into uh into Mexico. Mexico. Um, so I mean it it's likely that he would he would have been caught with if somebody were kidnapped or like hog tied in the back. And they they do oops sorry, they do x-ray the cars because people, you know, the drugs come this way and the money goes that way. Uh so uh they do x-ray cars that are going down into Mexico.

SPEAKER_03

Right. But the family, here's the thing, we're we're definitely x-rays. We don't we definitely don't know enough because the family keeps putting themselves out there on Instagram making pleas. So it makes me think that they have some kind of signs of life, don't you think? Like, and if they did, would they would they put that out there? Would they tell us? I don't know. It's interesting, right?

SPEAKER_00

I don't I don't think it necessarily means they have any signs of life. It just could be to get and keep the people talking to try to find a location on them. Because the more that the person communicates, the more chosen, yeah, a better chance of finding them.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, but they're they're not moving her right now, right? There's no way if she is alive, hopefully she is, they're not moving her, right? Because there's too many eyes, right? Too many eyes and too many. Um, I was watching just what was a Netflix special. Do you remember the girl in Utah got kidnapped by like that crazy?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know who you're talking about. The girl smart? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I just watched that on Netflix, and that guy kidnapped her, was too he took her into the woods, was like right outside the town and just kept her outside the town. And then it got still ugly and he went a little away. But people are pretty bold. Yeah, but this guy, it doesn't look like he just, I don't know. My opinion is it doesn't look like he just went there to rob. I I don't see it. You just walk up the front door. There's there's hoopla here, and I think I think the spectacle was meant to be created, like you're saying, and it makes me think, and and we know as much as you people all know now from movies and shows, but we know from experience that 99% of these things are usually tied to someone you know, relative or somebody you know. So it's always especially something as intimate as kidnapping, you know? Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00

Right. It might not be a it might not be a super close connection, but it's someone who you know, someone who you've bumped into or something like that. But uh most of the time it is somebody who's a little bit closer than just bumping into somebody.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_03

And Arizona, is Arizona red or a blue state?

SPEAKER_01

Purple. Depends.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yeah, it changes, right? Did it vote for Trump Arizona last time? They did. Well, I'm interested. Who's the and the governor? Do we know if the governor is? It's funny because it all falls on politics, right? Because if you're hearing lack of cooperation, there's some political shit show going on between the two of them, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I didn't even consider that anything.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and the Fed, the head of the federal, you know, what's the guy? There's what's his name? The head of the Fed FBI. Uh Cash Patel. Cash Patel, he he doesn't rub a lot of people the right way. He's just abrasive, you know what I mean? And his, you know, see you in Valhalla, okay, is his quote, you know. So a lot of people don't like him, and I could see that there'd be a pissing contest there, you know. But shit, I wonder if there's any political thing going on there. And he he likes the camera too, though. I'll tell you that. He likes the camera.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you know, so well the the senator in uh Arizona, I think yeah, it's Arizona, Mark Kelly. He's the one who came out with the commercial telling members of the military to not follow orders and things like that.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, I didn't realize that. So there's a lot of that going on, probably.

SPEAKER_00

I I'd like to think that that wouldn't play too much. I can't imagine it would. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I just think basic bureaucracy is happening. I think with personality and and and pissing contests, you know, I think that that's definitely there. What's the t tell listening viewers why the FBI gets involved in kidnapping, if you want to give some of that?

SPEAKER_00

It's interstate commerce. Right.

SPEAKER_03

Explain that a little bit. So if they think that the person it it affects interstate commerce at all.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And I think it's but do they give a a green light even if they don't know where the person is if it just happened?

SPEAKER_00

I think it's within twenty I think it's twenty-four hours. Uh is that it? It depends on the state, I believe. Uh twenty twenty-four hours, they're presumed to have crossed state lines or something. Is that what it is?

SPEAKER_03

There's a presumption.

SPEAKER_00

I I believe there is. I I haven't had to deal with it, but uh remember something and it might have been something on Nancy Grace to take that with a grain of salt on it. God.

SPEAKER_01

Well, but it doesn't matter. It doesn't have to be a transportation of the person out of state. It could be use of interstate commerce to affect the kidnapping. So simply getting on your phone, the Bitcoin wallets. Yeah. Something as simple as that could invite.

SPEAKER_00

Using your cell phone to affect the commission of a felony is a federal crime. So I mean, there's so many ways that they could get involved in it. Exactly. Um, you know, that they don't really have to wait.

SPEAKER_03

Right. The president picks up the call and says, We're on this, you're gonna find a way on it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. And the the commerce clause is uh pretty liberally interpreted.

SPEAKER_03

Well, yeah, it depends. Depending on what side wants to argue, yeah, exactly. Right? Like it could be strict, strict scrutiny or it could be liberal scrutiny, right? It really depends. Right. But it's an unfolding thing, and obviously we wish the best for uh to the Guthrie family, and yes, everybody's pulling for her, and hopefully everything is all right. We'll be develop watching the developments, and hopefully there's a good ending here, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Keep your fingers crossed. Yeah, I can't imagine what they're doing.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, hopefully there's a good ending here. Anybody have any parting thoughts on this?

SPEAKER_00

Uh no, just the the guy who did it's pretty stupid.

SPEAKER_03

I yeah. I mean, I agree. I think he's pretty stupid, right?

SPEAKER_00

Pretty bad.

SPEAKER_03

Just because of what? You still stuck on the ring thing the way you walk up?

SPEAKER_00

Well, yeah, he just walks up and then he's like, oh, I've been discovered, and then puts a bush over it, and you're like But what do you think about him just being comfortable in that area?

SPEAKER_03

Maybe we go to that. Do you think that maybe he's just comfortable with the area and knows the terrain? Mm-mm. No, just stupid.

SPEAKER_00

He's just dumb.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Anything else, Lloyd? No, I just I I feel for the family. I mean, not having closure, not having an answer, it's gotta be the worst thing. Day and night. You wake up to it, you go to bed to it. Uh feel for them.

SPEAKER_03

And if they have the DNA, just last time, if they have DNA there, they yeah, they can go, but they have to run it through their database, right?

SPEAKER_01

I think the feds are the only ones that have access to the full Where the yeah, the genealogy where they can match DNA to a family member of a potential suspect.

SPEAKER_03

Right, but there has to be some pieces come together here. You have to have someone that has their stuff in the system, right?

SPEAKER_00

So anybody who's used 21 and me or any of those kids, that they've got it all.

SPEAKER_03

Right. But but not everybody's used that. You know what I mean? So they have to have that, that has to be a family member, and then what they can just trace it to a family member. That's it.

SPEAKER_01

Who has to be in the system? Someone somewhere.

SPEAKER_00

Someone had because that's how they got the Golden State Killer, was they uh use genetic geneal uh genetic uh or genealogical DNA, whatever they call it, and they were able to identify uncles and stuff like that and trace it.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, so they're able to even say if it's an uncle or an aunt to that degree? Yeah. How do they do that? Based on the amount of DNA or what? I have no idea. Uh-huh. Study this for next time. All right. Well, thank you guys for coming on. I appreciate you coming on. I'm talking about this. So, listen and viewers who are going to be following this. Obviously, um, again, our hearts and uh thoughts are everybody, everything, all the good stuff is to the Guthrie family. We're we're hoping she pulls through. To all our listeners and viewers, thank you for watching. Two taps and friends. Uh please like, subscribe to the channel. If you like and subscribe to the channel, we can have more outreach. We can bring our panels back on, like the one we have on, and we can do more and we can cover more. Uh, please, uh, like I said, we're everywhere on YouTube, we're on iHeartRadio, we're on Spotify, we're on Apple Podcasts. The marketing team is fantastic. So we'll see you guys soon. Love you all. Thanks for watching, thanks for listening. Goodbye. Cut