Two Taps and Friends

Schweiker, Dye & Rosenberg | Stand Your Ground To Open Carry: Legal Firearm Frontlines #70

• Daniel Rosenberg • Episode 70

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In this gripping episode of Two Taps and Friends, host Daniel Rosenberg reunites with trial partners Larry Schweiker and Michael Dye to unpack the realities of preparing for a high-stakes murder trial. Drawing from decades of courtroom battles, they explore core defenses like "I didn't do it," affirmative claims such as self-defense, and the game-changing impact of Florida's Stand Your Ground law. With authentic insights into jury dynamics, hearsay pitfalls, and the human elements that sway verdicts, this conversation empowers listeners to see beyond media headlines and grasp the constitutional safeguards that define justice. A must-listen for anyone fascinated by the strategy, ethics, and emotional weight of criminal defense.

⏰ Timestamps ⏰
00:00:00 👋 Welcoming the Trial Team – Daniel introduces Larry Schweiker and Michael Dye
01:32 ⚖️ What are the three foundational defenses ("didn't do it," no intent, or legally justified), and why is "I wasn't there" often the strongest starting point?
04:02 🕵️‍♂️ When evidence places your client at the scene, how do you pivot to self-defense without admitting guilt upfront?
05:06 ✅ Why does proving self-defense flip the script, requiring the defense to build a justifiable excuse before the state rebuts?
06:42 🔄 Can lawyers ethically present conflicting theories (e.g., "wasn't him" or self-defense), and how does this play with juries seeking a clear story?
09:20 💼 Why can jurors believe guilt but must acquit if the state falls short, and how do lawyers hammer this during selection?
11:50 🌴 No duty to retreat if in a lawful place and fearing death—how did this evolve from castle doctrine, and what makes it fact-specific?
14:37 🏃‍♂️ Real Stand Your Ground Success Story – A teen evades gang pressure, shoots while fleeing repeated assaults—why did the judge dismiss despite no equal force?
17:16 🔓 With Florida's new laws, how do everyday carry rules create risks, and why might concealed still be strategically smarter?
20:14 🔒 Concealed Carry Practicalities – From "printing" arrests to interstate conflicts, what hidden pitfalls do gun owners face?
25:49 🗣️ Hearsay Demystified – Why is it inadmissible in court, and how do exceptions (or lack thereof) expose unreliable narratives?
28:26 💬 In high-profile controversies, when does a group chat become hearsay, and why can't friends "interpret" intent without testifying?
36:54 👥 With guns or death involved, how do biases taint pools in sensitive cases?
44:38 🎤 Wrapping up with legal wisdom.

What's the biggest myth you've heard about self-defense in murder cases—share your thoughts below!

#FloridaLaw #CriminalDefense #TrialLawyers #JurySelection #ConstitutionalCarry #LegalStrategy #JusticeSystem #TrialPreparation #DefenseAttorney #MurderCases #LegalPodcast #TrueCrimeCommunity #LawAndOrder #ReasonableDoubt #CriminalJustice #PodcastDiscussion #LegalJourney #AttorneyLife #EmotionalStorytelling #TrueCrimePodcast #LegalInsights #LawAndJustice #CourtroomStories #LegalAdvocacy #RealTalk #PodcastCommunity #Stories #ViralVideo #Talk #FYP

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SPEAKER_03

Well, he was gonna come in my yard. Like, oh, did he come in your yard? No, then you can't pull a rifle on somebody.

SPEAKER_01

There's three defenses to any criminal charges, didn't do it, didn't mean to do it, and crazy.

SPEAKER_02

Innocent till proven guilty. Exactly. And if they can't prove it, then you're innocent. Right. Came downstairs, sure as hell, they're there, they're chasing him. And he literally was shooting back at them. He was shooting this way. You can believe that he's did it, he's gotta be guilty. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. But if the state doesn't prove that he did it, you still have to find him not guilty.

SPEAKER_03

The burden on the state, we've talked about this many times, and the government is they have to prove everything beyond the exclusion of every reasonable doubt. Every element. He's back here with us in full force, attorney and my trial partner, Larry Schweiker. Welcome back, Larry. How are you? I have my other trial partner, Michael Dye.

SPEAKER_00

Welcome to Two Taps and Friends. Grab your favorite drink, get comfy, and let's dive into another episode of Two Taps and Friends.

SPEAKER_03

Welcome back to Two Taps and Friends. I'm Danny Rosenberg, Hearst of the Show, and today I brought my esteemed trial panel on. I have back for a while, hasn't been back in a while, has had some stuff going on, but he's back here with us in full force attorney, my trial partner, Larry Schweiker. Welcome back, Larry. Danny, how are you? I have my another trial partner, Michael Dye here. He's been on very frequently. He's pretty much a co-host on the show. How are we doing?

SPEAKER_01

Doing fantabulous.

SPEAKER_03

He's here with the famous rubber ducky shirt. He's got a Jeep.

SPEAKER_01

They're the one.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, the one. Well, I brought you guys on because I thought, you know, Larry and I have a murder trial coming up and we're preparing for it.

SPEAKER_02

No, no. We're doing a podcast. We're not preparing for it.

SPEAKER_03

Well, you know, in the off time, we're preparing for it. No, I'm joking. Um, we clearly are preparing for it. Um, but I wanted to talk murders with you guys and trials and and the different preparation that goes along and the different defenses that go along because, you know, in the media, what we see more than anything are are murder cases. It's it's it's what's juicy, it's what's uh, you know, what's what everybody's covering, what the podcasts are covering, and all that kind of stuff. So and the number one thing I, you know, want to talk about are defenses, first of all, starting with there, you know, because people throw around self-defense uh always for everything. That's what the non-experts become experts when it comes to self-defense, right? With gunshots and shooting, and we see this a lot, right, with like gun charges, right? Oh, I was defending this, I was defending that. I'm like, okay, well, you you can't pull a rifle on somebody, you know, yeah because you're, you know, well, he was gonna come in my yard. Like, oh, did he come in your yard? No, then you can't pull a rifle on somebody, right?

SPEAKER_02

You see it, yeah, we see a lot of murder trials. As lawyers, we've gotta be like, what's the bike version, like one percenters. Right. I was I was in law when I was in law school, we had a whatever discussion was going on. We had this discussion, and one of my professors, she was a trial lawyer or a litigator or something, which is really rare, right? Very, very rare, apparently. And we're having a discussion, she said something, and her comment was, I'm a person who represents murderers and rapists, and whatever she was talking about. And everyone's just like, oh my god, she represents murder and rapists. This is all we do now. I remember that phrase, I'm thinking, yeah. Why was everyone so shocked about that? We are a very rare breed that gets into in the big picture of lawyers. Right. I mean corporate lawyers, government lawyers. You have criminal lawyer law is a narrow focused thing. Trial lawyers are much more narrow. Right. And even more narrow is the actual homicide stuff. Right. You're getting it, you know, do that death penalty, you gotta be certified for that. You can't just wing it and do it.

SPEAKER_03

100%. First of all, accused of, not always did it, right? Like it's to differentiate alleged murders. You said murderers are rapists, but yeah. No, we represent them. We represent them. We're going back in circles.

SPEAKER_02

You may allegedly represent people.

SPEAKER_03

No, no, no, we definitely represent them, but you know, we represent alleged murderers or rapists, is what I was joking about. But it doesn't matter. But either way, what are you gonna say? You're gonna add something on it. Oh, I thought you were gonna say something. No, so um, but first of all, talking about some of the defenses, you know, what what the best defense for any trial is in in my opinion, in experience, is ID. You guys agree? Meaning wasn't there, wasn't me, wasn't there. Do you agree with that?

SPEAKER_01

Well, if it's true, um, yeah, that's well, but first of all, it adds another step for them to prove, right? Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03

It clearly, if you were there, that's not a defense, right?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I mean, they there's I think that's all you there's three char there's three defenses to any criminal charge, just didn't do it, didn't mean to do it in crazy. Right. And so every defense is one of those.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_01

Uh so when you're saying didn't do it, now you're talking about an alibi defense. If the alibi defense holds up, yeah, it's great.

SPEAKER_03

Um Yeah, but didn't do it could also mean uh didn't mold elements of the crime, right? Like of a self-defense, right? Self-defense. They're saying like the the issue that with self-defense that people don't understand, especially in trials, like you put yourself there. You know what I mean? Like if the state is able to establish that the person or the government is able to establish the person who's actually on the scene, you know, clearly self-defense is something that you need to go, especially affirmative defenses.

SPEAKER_02

If you have an affirmative defense, we'll talk about that a little bit. Right. That's exactly what it is. Yes, I did do it, but I have a defense toward it. That's it. And that gives you uh that's what defense is, not as opposed to I didn't do it. Your defense isn't I didn't do it, it just wasn't.

SPEAKER_01

Right. The problem with the affirmative defense, I mean affirmative defense is what you you can start it off with I did it, but right and then you have to have a legally justifiable excuse after the butt. Which I turn into one of your three things, uh so and it goes into I didn't do it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that's what we're saying. You're categorized into I didn't do it.

SPEAKER_02

I didn't I did do it, but I'm allowed to have done it.

SPEAKER_01

That's that that's not really so uh you know, it it's not murder because I was allowed to kill him. Right.

SPEAKER_03

So but I I but there's been situations and cases before, we're not gonna name names, where in the middle of trial, I think you were part of one with me, where we this is a previous podcast, I think. Yeah, we had to shift, we had to shift uh focus, like uh you know, all of a sudden we saw it first of all, not knowing whether our guy is guilty or not, because a lot of times we don't ask that question, right? That's a question you try to avoid asking because it's not about whether they are it sounds crazy to say that, but it's about whether it can be proven, right?

SPEAKER_02

It's not really crazy to say that. It's kind of a constitutional law. I agree.

SPEAKER_03

But to a layman hearing that, they say, What do you mean you said about that? Saying it's about what the state of the federal government can prove, right?

SPEAKER_02

Well you're innocent till proven guilty. Exactly. And if they can't prove it, then you're innocent.

SPEAKER_03

Right. But sometimes mid-trial, all of a sudden you're realizing they're able to prove that the person was actually there. So you have to now, you know, and and and now you start to question the client a little bit, right? And they're like, well, you know, then they start to give you separate affirmative defenses, and you got to shift in trial.

SPEAKER_02

You could technically argue that in front of a jury. You can I would never do this, I don't think. I'll not. They say it wasn't him, it wasn't him. But if you think it's him, he had a defense, he was so it was self-defense.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well, if he defense that, but you can can you can present conflicting theories of defense. Right where if well, if there's this, if there's this, if there's this, but the state's not allowed to have conflicting versions of prosecution, right?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, but you can't say five guys identified him. Well, if you you would believe all those five guys, then he actually shot him in self-defense. You because you're you hit out you hit the nail on the head. Most people don't understand that. And that's who our jury is. Most people. Uh jury of your peers, no, not people that would shoot somebody possibly or defend themselves. It's rare. So you have to go with one or the other in reality.

SPEAKER_03

Like Larry say, what he's what he's pointing out to like Michael's like, as lawyers, yes, you can present that. But as a juror that's not a lawyer hearing, they want to know what happened, right? They want to dumb it down. Did what they say happen, or is what you're saying happened. It's almost like we're forced to now paint a picture where we're not supposed to.

SPEAKER_02

So the the best example, I guess, is what we use like a domestic violence battery. And a battery you have the harmful or offensive touching of another without their consent. And you have to have that element without their consent.

SPEAKER_03

Meaning they have to come and testify with live testimony that it wasn't it was against their consent.

SPEAKER_02

Now there's a couple for all those lawyers watching this, there are a couple of strenuous things that can happen. Right. The the 9-11, whatever, uh hearsay. Yeah. So but barring that, they have to have the element of without their consent. Right. It probably resolves back from football or something like that, where we all agree to hit each other. It's not a battery, that type of thing. Now, on an aggravated battery, where you either use a weapon or you commit serious bodily injury, you don't have to have the element of without their defense. So if I have a witness that's not a good thing, without their consent, sorry. Well, yeah, without you consent, yeah. So if a witness sees you stab somebody and the victim's not around or they don't want to come in, they still can go forward with that case. Right. So that's why you have it's an affirmative defense. You have to the burden shift to you, and you have to go ahead and prove that it was a self-defense at that point. Right. And the problem is on an aggravated battery going one step further, without the witness, hey, an eyewitness said that it was uh I saw you stab him from afar, and then he said, Well, now it's self-defense. It's the whole thing we're just talking about. It's the burden shifts, but he said he's gonna kill me. He had a look like he had a gun in his pocket. The witness wasn't there to that, all that stuff. So now you put on an affirmative defense, and if it's not rebutted, that defense stands.

SPEAKER_03

Right. So affirmative defense, or layman or people listening, not lawyers. You know, the the burden on the state, we've talked about this many times, and the government is they have to prove everything beyond the exclusion of every reasonable doubt. Every element, it's on them. Like nothing for defense. Like we literally we joke around we in jurisdiction, we talk about, you know, I could be sitting here reading the funny papers when the fun we still use that joke as if the funny papers are still around.

SPEAKER_02

I say play tic-tac-toe.

SPEAKER_03

Whatever it is, right? Angry birds. You they have to do everything. Are you okay with that? We do that to kind of make sure and hammer away that concept that the burden is all on the state and federal government. Do you think it's fair? Do you think it's not fair? That's what we ask them. When it comes to an affirmative defense like self-defense, that burden, for the only time in trials, that burden shifts to now the defense has to prove uh that that that at least allege or prove or allege that this is a self-defense case, and then the government then has to go back and rebut that it was, you know. But if we don't do that, then you know you can't really do it.

SPEAKER_02

You hit on a really interesting thing. How many people they always in a broad deal when we pick juries, they always say, Yes, we can follow the law, we can follow the law. I always want to say to a jury, you can truly believe my client's guilty. I can tell you well, not tell you he did it, but you can think he did. You can believe that he's did it, he's gotta be guilty. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. But if the state doesn't prove that that he did it, you still have to find him not guilty. And you can't say that to somebody to be like, no, he's if we believe he's guilty, he's guilty. And that's the reality of it. Unfortunately, they don't follow the law because the state barely proves their case. We always bring up what reasonable doubt is, a lack of evidence, you know, conflict in evidence. You always bring that out, but they're no, we believe he's did it, and that's it. It doesn't matter. So the state doesn't it's really weighted the other way, even though the burden's all on them, back to the human element factor, doesn't matter. At some point we can have artificial intelligence decide the state didn't do their kit prove enough of their case, guilty or not guilty.

SPEAKER_03

I think that's why they stack it against the standard.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I was gonna say the problem with Department of Defenses is that you have to admit half of it. Exactly. That's my point, right? You gotta go ahead and say, but you have the best idea.

SPEAKER_02

You're there already. The five guys that said you did it already. Right. At that point, you have no choice.

SPEAKER_03

But if you you don't have that, to come out the gate saying that you're you're I think you're doing half the Florida to get even further with the stand your ground statute. Right.

SPEAKER_01

But everybody's got the stand your ground statute messed up.

SPEAKER_03

Let's explain a stand your ground statute, because I know lawyers are confused about talk about it a little bit. Easy boy wonder give a feeling.

SPEAKER_01

If you are legally where you are allowed to be, and somebody is going to physically harm you, and you are in fear of great bodily harm or death, you can use uh you can use deadly force deadly force before you don't have to retreat. All I mean under common law, you had to attempt to retreat from the situation before using deadly force. In Florida, the only thing is now is you don't have to try to retreat.

SPEAKER_03

Right, right. That but that needs to be played out, right?

SPEAKER_02

So like well, there's more to it than that. The state loses jurisdiction to prosecute you because you don't have a duty to retreat. That's the idea of it. It's a motion to dismiss based on the fact of uh no jurisdiction. So that that's the whole thing. It basically took our old school castle doctrine where your house is your home, you could kill anybody. The old saying for the people at our age, or my age, oh, if you shoot somebody, make sure you drag them into your house first. That was the whole thing you used to say. Now it doesn't matter. Now you don't have to drag the body into the house anymore. If you're it applies everywhere. And it's they took the ball and ran with that.

SPEAKER_03

Well, but they it it leaves the the the part of it up to a lot of interpretation, though, right? So like you're in reasonable fear for your for your of death, right? So like if I'm sitting on my front lawn and I get into a shouting argument with somebody and I put a gun on my lap, and that person, you know, and and and then that person shoots me, like who's in the right there, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, because it's it's very fact-specific. Right, you get what I'm saying? No, is it is it a reasonable person standard or is it a subjective standard?

SPEAKER_02

Well, it's they apply a reasonable person standard to it, but the bottom line is it's and it well, it used to be force with force, the meat force with force.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But that's not the situation anymore, right? Right. And the old adage it taught you in law school, you know, if uh someone sh comes up to you with a knife and a blowtorch, you know, oh wait, what do I have here? I got a knife, I got a gun, wait, I don't have one of those, let me know. You don't have to meet equal force, but that doesn't apply as as it is said, but you know, it can be a karate person, but you know, that whole theory that you have. If he knows jujitsu, I can shoot him because if he knows jujitsu, I'm just gonna kick his ass.

SPEAKER_01

I mean God.

SPEAKER_03

You're gonna say a lot of jujitsu guys watch this podcast. Be careful what you say, you know. He's not with us. Yeah, got the duck shirt.

SPEAKER_02

I think um go ahead. So that's the whole idea of it. They they lose jurisdiction. Governor Bush is the one that put it out there, and uh he said, you don't have anything. Now they took the ball and ran with it. I mean, I I had several stand your ground motions I did. I won two of them that were in Dade County, and if you I could the facts were really relevant because it applies. I have a client who was um lived in a really bad neighborhood, gangs were all around there, and they wanted him to join the gang. Okay, they were selling drugs, they were doing all this, and and um he tried avoiding them. So he tried avoiding them, they beat the hell out of him a couple times. He has an older brother who's kind of a thug himself, and the brother would tell him he's 13, 14 years old, right, and they beat the shit out of him like three or four times, okay? Moved out of the city, couldn't stay out of the city anymore, went to Miami Beach, had to move back to uh little Havana area, and um the day he came back, they uh they chased him, chased him home and his brother. And the we the month before they beat the hell out of his brother uh as well. So he had a uh his mother had a 38 revolver, he took it with him when he left the house. He's trying to get back out of the city, and when he came downstairs, sure as hell, they're there, they're chasing him, and he literally was shooting back at them. He was shooting this way. Oh my god. Um he was running from them and uh hit one guy in the chest, one guy in the in the leg. Shooting back.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, they would impressive some John Wick shit right there. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I I don't know who else he shot around him. A few other people do. Who else was there? A couple dead dogs with other uh four bullets went, but still. Uh anyway, and it was uh Judge Anderson, he was really um not happy with the case because the one guy had to have his chest cracked open, it was really bad, he's in serious problems. But when I got him in deposition, he was not the brightest guy in the world. He was telling me about his gang. We were literally on video because uh doing the and he was showing me his gang signals and everything. So he put all that in the motion, and he's he this guy tried three or four times to get away from them, moved out of the city. It wasn't happening. So at this point, he now they didn't have guns. It wasn't force with force. They didn't have guns, but they beat the hell out of him and his brother a few times before, and they're chasing him again because he wouldn't join the gang, right? They admitted to that, fortunately. So that was the whole thing. That is a really good perfect example of how that law should apply. Right. Okay, so he's gonna sit in his house, and if they come in the house, I can shoot you, but I can't leave my house because I I can't shoot you. That's the law is perfect. But in doing the research for that, the cases that you come across are I I found one case, I don't know if it's held up or not, guys stealing cars, he's breaking into a car, and owner comes down, starts chasing him, and he pulls out his owner's like, pulls out, he's gonna get the hell away from my car, and this guy turns around and shoots him. And they said, Stand your ground applies to the guy stealing the car at that point. Right. That case might not have held up, but still, you get as in any law, you get crazy with it. We have the open carrying that's coming out now. It's gonna be a shit show, really. I mean, it's already out.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it's already here. Right. So that is a shit show. I mean, I can't I can't even imagine where that's gonna go. I mean, they have the exceptions like in a school building near a school disc, you're not gonna be able to get it.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, they're not exceptions, they were they were the same rule that you had before. You couldn't carry a gun whether it was concealed or not in those areas. Right. But now you just can't open carry. Although publics just came out of it in the paper yesterday, we're allowing open carrying. Oh, really?

SPEAKER_03

So you can walk into publics now with a gun.

SPEAKER_02

You could do it before, and unless you put up a sign that says no no guns allowed here, which elevates the um trespass now to a felony because it's armed trespass if if you walk into the gun and you don't leave. So if publics or 7-Eleven says, Hey, get out of my store and you don't get out, it's trespass. Now you have a gun on you and you don't leave, it's felony trespass. So that's uh gonna be a whole thing. And you have a lot more phone calls. Hey, this guy's walking down the block with an AR.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you can't do anything. It used to be the um it was uh fishing or hunting or camping were the three exceptions. So you'd have those jackasses that would go out there and bait cops by going out on the Dania pier with their AR-15 strapped across their back, and then you know, of course, the BSO who I mean if not gonna say anything. You know, the police officers who did not know that the law existed for open carry while you're fishing would show up with their guns drawn, and these people would be like, What you're gonna get a lawsuit, bro, because they're just baiting them to how you're gonna get a lawsuit, bro. It's not like a Miami, like there's any these people that go out there and just bait cops into situations that's so stupid.

SPEAKER_02

And as a kid, everyone in Davy had a gun rack in the back of their truck, and the guns were and the shotguns were on there. People went to school that way in the 80s. Right. So uh you always carry shotguns, uh hunting guns in your back of your pickup truck. Now you can do it again. That's all.

SPEAKER_01

But you know, the thing is with the open carry, anybody who open carries um is kind of stupid because I mean if you're if your objective is you're creating stand your ground for half the people you run into.

SPEAKER_03

Well, no, it's if if you're if you walk up and you have a gun on your waistband, you say, Hey, screw you, the guy shoots you. Yeah, he could say you were provoking him. You had a gun on you. I don't know, he could kill me. Think about that. I'm obviously I'm exaggerating a little bit, but you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_01

Is if you're if you're using it for self-defense, somebody walks in with the intent to commit a crime and looks around and sees you open carrying, that's a big sign that's a shoot me first.

SPEAKER_03

Right. It's dangerous.

SPEAKER_01

I just you know it's not a bright idea. You'd prefer for nobody to know you have.

SPEAKER_02

I know a guy that if if you're in the military and I'm speaking out of school here, this is just what I heard. The guys on the top of the uh Humvees that that that have the uh 50 cows, whatever, those guys had a four percent uh chance of living going through the area because they're the first ones that would take out. That was the idea of that.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, you're the most exposed, and you're you're obviously the problem. Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_02

And those are the ones the first ones to take out. You're right. So, but still carrying a weapon concealed is still pretty uh this is a whole other podcast. It's useless. It's a useless weapon.

SPEAKER_03

No, it isn't. I'd argue with you that it's actually better. Like it's better. I think open carry, like I how I would use it is just to be able to walk around with a concealed forearm without worrying about the little fucking minutiae. You know, you don't have to worry about package and is it secure and all that dumb.

SPEAKER_02

I saw the butt of his gun coming out, or he reached up to get something on the shelf and his his gun was exposed. That's it. You're open carry, and I can arrest you. And you may think it doesn't happen if you're not in the world that we're in, but we see many cases all the time. And it's usually probable cause to go stop somebody. I saw the butt of his gun. And if you're printing, which means you just can see the outline behind your shirt, then it's a cop can say, I saw it. Okay. Now, yes, I know not every cop's gonna say that, but listen, if you're a cop and you see a guy with a gun, you really should be looking at him. You should be watching what he's doing. That's another thing.

SPEAKER_03

I was gonna say law enforcement encounters are gonna get way more heightened. Can you imagine?

SPEAKER_01

Like, you know, I don't know. Everybody was everybody was going nuts about how Florida's gonna turn into the Wild West when we when we got constitutional carry, when we did away with the uh need to have a concealed carry permit. A lot of people were freaking out about that, saying, Oh, it's only like six months ago, wasn't it? Yeah, oh, there's gonna be so many drive-bys and deaths and all. Hasn't happened. Um, so I I mean I think that most people with common sense are not going to open carry. And I mean, unless I can't I can't think of a reason other than like hunting or fishing, well, not even fishing. You don't fish with a gun. Um, but I I think most people who do carry a gun have a little bit of common sense, and I think that they're not yeah.

SPEAKER_03

You think that yeah, I mean I think the more honestly I think the conservatives that are carrying guns usually are are

SPEAKER_02

Usually more controlled with them, you know, then you know I don't think most people have common sense in general. That I agree with.

SPEAKER_03

That I agree with. I mean, yeah, it's it's just a it's a dangerous recipe. So we'll we'll see.

SPEAKER_02

We're we're kind of falling behind it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well, it seems like a physical carry is the norm in most states, but I just I just went up to New Jersey. And if uh I didn't take my gun with me when I went to New Jersey, even though it was Newark, so I should have. Um but when you go up to New Jersey, uh, you know, once you get in the car, it has to be in a locked container. Uh and I think you have to put it in the trunk or something. A locked container in the trunk, but then you get over to Pennsylvania, and which is only about 30 miles away, and you can conceal carry.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, because 30 miles the other way in New York, you still have to do it.

SPEAKER_03

The feds are gonna have to kibosh some of this stuff because it's getting too inconsistent. Right, there's too many conflicts. I know I'm in New York, I can pick up a life felony or whatever, like and I'm here, and it's completely okay. It's just too confused. That's the whole point of the listers of the Commerce Clause. Like if it if it affects too many states and it becomes too inconsistent to be from one state to the other, they can get involved and they can make a uniform law, you know, especially if it affects it. Like Jersey, what's Jersey's law?

SPEAKER_01

Jersey, uh, you have to well, they don't have every state has to have uh the ability for you to get a concealed carry permit, but they're very restrictive on who they give the concealed carry permits to. And I think only two were issued in one year. And so it's impossible to get one there. And so there's no reciprocity with Florida's concealed carry. So when I was up in New Jersey, I would have had to uh keep my uh handgun in a locked case and put it in the trunk of the car. Right.

SPEAKER_02

I was seeing a lot more uh protective orders coming in for uh BSO taking guns. People have mental health issues.

SPEAKER_03

Well, it's not even they do it for everything now. Well The risk protection order, that's a new thing. I see it all the time. Every time anytime a car now it's enforced.

SPEAKER_02

They're doing a lot more of them, that's what I'm saying. It's and that's and that's gonna be kind of the balancing act here, you know. We'll give you the gun rights, but they give us something and they'll act on it.

SPEAKER_03

But they're you know how they're enforcing it's so ridiculous. I I we need to take the firearm for a year, but you could hold on to it, dude. Well, like I can hold on to his firearm, the lawyer, yeah, as long as you have it for safekeeping. I'm like, okay, great. Now I have to fifty firearms in my office, you know, like the Sheriff's Department has a lot of guns there now, too.

SPEAKER_02

So some of these guns are worth a lot of people.

SPEAKER_03

You're hoping some people won't pick them up, you know. Like we have a fire sale after a year, you know.

SPEAKER_02

Well, that's the idea of it, I guess. There's used to be a law that cops, you know, can see can take a gun and have a judge sign off on you know confiscating it or something like that. You get a nice chrome-plated Colt 45 or something like that. Exactly. Yeah, they would want that one.

SPEAKER_03

So like the cop car, the Corvette that goes by the cop car.

SPEAKER_01

A lot of states take the guns that go into um what's it called, into evidence. And once the once there's no longer any use for use form, a lot of states auction those off. So that's uh there's a website called Evidence Room where they the I mean you you pick up like the little ghetto blasters, or you know, like the uh 25 caliber ravens and stuff.

SPEAKER_02

We used to go down to the evidence room. We are a lot, I don't know if you still can or not, I haven't done it in a while. And you have a gun case, you go down, they'll you the idea is that you when you go to trial, you don't want to be holding the gun and looking at it for the first time. Right. Even though you know what a nine millimeter beretta looks like, you still go see that one and you have and you have it, you can hold it, they'll show it to you. It's obviously safe. When you go went down there, not one gun was worth a damn right? It's like all the ones they see is like so someone were trying to this blow up in your face or something. Yeah, exactly. They were like really and you walked out stone because all the marijuana is sitting on the one side of the evidence room. It's like, whoa, how do you guys have to go?

SPEAKER_03

The cops in there just giggling at you. I'm like, oh my god, you guys gotta take a lunch.

SPEAKER_02

Bags of chips everywhere. I don't know why.

SPEAKER_03

But listen, I wanted to move on to a topic that I think is important that most people don't understand. And hearsay. I want to just flush this out a little bit, you know, because I know that we we have a pretty good understanding of what hearsay is, okay? I heard you say it. It bothers me. It bothers me that nowadays I had a guy argue with me today about like the Charlie Kirk thing. I don't know if you've been followed, Larry. Like there's a text message where he said he was leaving the Israel cause, and he put out a tech, this Candace Owens idiot put it out there, right? So then his friends commented she's a fucking idiot. She's hot, she's disgusting. So then his friend, his friend came out and said, Hey, this is bullshit. This is my friend. He didn't mean anything, he was just blowing off steam. So I had a person arguing me to my face today saying, That's so ridiculous that he would put that text out. I'm like, who, the friend? He's like, Yeah, it's the same value as the guy that's known him all of his life, commenting on what the text means. It's all hearsay, right? I tried to explain to him that none of it would be admitted in a court of law, right? Guy looked at me like I fell off a I mean, the text is getting in under dying declaration. Yeah, what's the exception? If he got shot while he was texting it.

SPEAKER_02

Well, the funny thing, you hit on a really interesting point. The funny thing is, and I remember this from law school, whenever we we had the exam on evidence on hearsay, like nine out of ten questions, the answer was it's not hearsay. Right? Everyone's looking for the exception to it, but it wasn't hearsay in the first place. Right.

SPEAKER_03

Well, let's define hearsay.

SPEAKER_02

Out of court statement offered, testify to in court.

SPEAKER_03

Out of court statement offered for the truth of the matter asserted.

SPEAKER_02

Testified to in court.

SPEAKER_01

For the truth of the matter asserted.

SPEAKER_02

So it has to be testified to in court. If I'm sitting there making statements to the cop outside, it doesn't make a difference. Right. It's testified to in court.

SPEAKER_03

That's where it becomes that's where it becomes that's where it becomes direct evidence.

SPEAKER_02

That's where it's liability. Liability is weak.

SPEAKER_01

You know, a lot of people think that you know, hearsay it is very broad, but it's actually pretty narrow because there's a lot of exceptions. Uh, what are the like 23 separate obsessions? My my ex-wife's attorney always used to say stuff like uh not for the truth of the matter asserted effect on the listener. That's the only exception she had.

SPEAKER_02

That's all you want to do.

SPEAKER_01

And I was just like, for God's sake, there's 21 others, lady. Can you fucking think of one?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and then usually she was wrong.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, and she I mean she was just dumb. Right. And yes, it's you.

SPEAKER_03

So uh Right, but like the a text message that that's sent to another friend without that person testifying to the text or receiving the text is your sick.

SPEAKER_02

Listen, those those exceptions kind of make everything come in. Okay, that doesn't affect on the listener. That doesn't come in when I just message I just sang.

SPEAKER_03

Which one is it? It's a text message by a dying person. Charlie Kirk allegedly sent a text in his group chat of turning point people. Okay, just lost money from a Jewish donor. These Jewish donors play the same state, play under the stereotypes. I might they're gonna force me to turn away from the pro-Israel cause, right? They took that text and she's using that now, this Candace Owens, to show that he was turning away from Israel and that Israel assassinated him. So the truth of the matter asserted is that this is proof that he was turning away from Israel and and that Israel has probably killed him. No, there's nobody testifying to this. This is just a text message from him, right?

SPEAKER_01

Back up on that for a second. The only truth of the matter is. The only truth of the matter asserted was that he would be turning away from Israel. Okay. Exactly what it says. Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Well, that's what she's offering it for, right?

SPEAKER_01

Well, you could go ahead and you could offer it for his state of mind that he was becoming increasingly agitated with the Israeli donors. Uh, you could offer it for that, but you couldn't offer it for the fact that he that he intended to turn away from uh Israel.

SPEAKER_03

She was offering it to show that he was turning away from Israel.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, but you also got to remember that hearsay is only in court.

SPEAKER_03

This is a all I was saying is that if it was in a court, there's a reason why. There's a reason why in court it's not in. You know why? Because it's bullshit. Thank you. That's all I was trying to make a point of, right? I know we're not in court. Because of that. That's what he kept saying to me, but we're not in court. Like, I know we're not in court. I'm trying to make a point to you. If it wouldn't even be admitted there, because you're trying to judge whether something happened or not, real really judge with critical thinking. What the fuck are you taking it so seriously for on fucking social media for? You get what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00

No, I understand. Let's say people always say, but we're not in court, you kept saying to me.

SPEAKER_02

I'm like, people say stupid shit like if you're studying for the ball exam, don't use what we learned here for on hearsay. Okay.

SPEAKER_03

At least not when Larry talks. But not when Larry talks, okay? Stops of friends on MC.

SPEAKER_01

When when people say, like, oh you know, oh, somebody's innocent until proven guilty, that's in court. That's what the that's the instructions juries have to follow. That's not what I have to feel as a person. Right. All right. I can go ahead and look at a case and be like, that dude's pretty fucking guilty. Right. All right. And that's not a violation of anybody's constitutional. Not at all.

SPEAKER_03

Not at all. But if you're trying to convince me and showing it to me as if it's this amazing airtight case, I'm gonna take you apart. You get what I'm saying? Well, yeah, because people think You're allowed to fucking follow whatever theory you want. You could sit here, you could believe that aliens created unicorns and the unicorns make cheesecakes. I couldn't say a fucking thing. I don't need you to prove it to me, but if you tried to prove to me that, I would take you apart, right? I would take you apart, especially with a text message.

SPEAKER_01

You lost my cheesecake. Yeah, so yeah, it's a good thing. Doesn't take much to lose you. Uh huh. Aliens and cheesecake. Um, but at the same time, you know, anybody, you know, we're not in court, you know. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Whatever I want to say, dude.

SPEAKER_01

Like all these people say stupid shit, like, oh, innocent till proven guilty. Oh, that's in court. All right. I can go ahead and feel anywhere that I want to.

SPEAKER_03

There is no innocence until proven guilty outside of court. You're guilty until proven innocent anywhere else.

SPEAKER_02

You know, the most famous line I heard is a juvenile judge. He was great. I won't mention his name.

SPEAKER_03

Does he hold an unlit cigar? Uh no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02

Before him. And uh, we're in the middle of a trial, a juvenile trial, and I object. I said, Judge, it's his hearsay. I know it's hearsay, but I want to hear it.

SPEAKER_01

I think you know exactly what you're saying. It's getting in because I want to hear it. Did he handle one high-profile case? Uh exactly one high-profile case.

SPEAKER_03

No, I know exactly who you're talking about now, right? Right?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, he was a great guy, though. He was amazing.

SPEAKER_03

He really was.

SPEAKER_02

But uh then we had the other one.

SPEAKER_03

Did he pass away? He's still around. No, he didn't. You already killed the guy?

SPEAKER_02

I didn't kill him. No. Okay. But um we had that trial, we had a trial, remember? Um his name. We had a 20-minute argument that this is hearsay. It's hearsay, it's gotta be hearsay. Fortunately, we gotta knock guilty on it. The next day we're in that division. Same judge, he's like, Mr. Schweiker, Mr. Rosenberg, you know, that argument we had, I go, yeah. Uh Judge, you're not well. If you would have argued Crawford case, I would have agreed that it's hearsay. I was hearsay before Crawford, dude.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02

Whatever you want, Judge. Okay, that's that's all that's we already had that one argument with uh but the point is that no one they want everything once people want to hear everything. They want it to come in. You have 23 exceptions to it. It's can come in probably, okay.

SPEAKER_01

That one argument we had was the uh sex bad case with the the kid, and uh, we were I was arguing, Your Honor, there has to be penetration in order for the and then he's like, I've tried 56 sexual batteries, I know there has to be penetration, and then he goes ahead and he gives us a directed verdict at the close of the state's evidence, all right, not guilty on the sex battery, right? Then I go back and I'm gonna reading over some stuff to prepare for the defense side for the lesser included. And this here's this case that says, penetration means contact. There does not have to mean actual contact. I remember that.

SPEAKER_03

We were there together, and at one point he goes, I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna watch all the videos and see penetration. We're like, oh my god. And we're like, you do whatever the hell you want to do, Your Honor.

SPEAKER_01

He was like, he was like, this folder, he's like, did he touch her outside? Yeah, it was an inside. It was so bad.

SPEAKER_03

I'm like, what the hell are we doing? It was a Friday afternoon, too. I was like, I'm done. He's like, I'm gonna watch all these videos in my chambers.

SPEAKER_01

We're like, you go to and he like he just fists the file, and you're just like the first time in law school, you read a sexual battery uh statue.

SPEAKER_02

You know, it's you watch the people around you squirming. Oral anal or phallica, is touching the vagina, oral anal penetrating. It's like people just like law school. I didn't go to med school.

SPEAKER_03

I got up at one time in a jury selection and I go penis, vagina. I go blowjobs. I start just and everybody's like, what is this guy doing? I'm like, and everybody should go take a shower after my jury selection. Everybody started laughing, you know. Like, you that had the But you had to like get the shock factor out, right? I wanted to see what they would react to.

SPEAKER_02

Finkelstein is famous for that. He had a case with uh where uh sex toys dildos were all about the case. So and he's like, I gotta desensitize this jury. So he had a box full of dildos and threw them into the jury.

SPEAKER_00

Where'd you get the I don't want to know the answer to that question? There is one where he says how many dildo is out of the closet, the public defender's office.

SPEAKER_03

Why does this one have your name on it?

SPEAKER_02

Like there's only 10 coming back.

SPEAKER_03

What's the other 10?

SPEAKER_01

There was that's my shirt, you know? This guy's defense to uh the sex, the rape charge was that his penis was too small to cut into the commandment. I remember that. I remember that. And then it was caused by the aggressive use of uh she self uh aggressively used a dildo.

SPEAKER_00

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01

And I was just like, no, and then he appeals this, right? Because he got found guilty. And it's like, would you really want to go out there and have a judges again? And be like, I'm sorry, my penis is too small to do any damage. Like, first off, after I saw like childbirth, like the the thought that my penis ever hurt anybody, it just went flying out the window. All right, we need to move on to the phone.

SPEAKER_03

Is that on your list of stuff we're talking about? We need to move on real to this. And talking about his personalized dildos. But yeah, so I just wanted to talk about hearsay. I don't know if anyone got a better picture of what that is after all this, but but basically it's an episode.

SPEAKER_02

Two tafs takes it to the next level.

SPEAKER_01

Out of court statement that's only evidentiary values for the truth of the matter asserted.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_01

Boom.

SPEAKER_03

In other words, and there's exceptions, you know, but 19 or something, really being a scholar, too. But the point is that what we hear nowadays is in court, half of it, 90% of it would not be admissible. It's all innuendo and bullshit, and it's hard to get an assessment as to what's real and what's not, you know. The last 10 minutes of the uh podcast, I want to talk about the difference in jury selections at murder trials, right? Larry, you want to take that up a little bit? Talk about the difference. Because we talk about jury trial. I just had Eric Schwarzwreck on here. I just had all these guys that are experts at Johnny and Johnny Weeks, and all these guys talk about it. We've talked about it. Talk about the big differences here.

SPEAKER_02

Well, here, especially if you have number one, if you have guns involved, that's a hot topic. And if there's any kind of it's any case that has a hot topic where people are more sensitive, is where you have a problem. Okay, that's number one. Or it's a problem for two reasons. One, it is affects it does affect people. Some people just can't stand guns, they can't look at them, they can't have them around them. They think that's no one should have a gun. That's their guy-given right to believe that. But you can't sit here and not be focused and focused on my case if you just can't get past the fact that there's a gun here. Like you lost me when you said gun. Right. Same thing with sex cases. Hey, listen, I can't do a sex case, okay? That's all there is to it.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_02

My analogy I use in jury selection is hey, if you're not right for this jury panel, let us know. I'm I'm asthmatic, I have asthma pretty much all my life. If I was a juror on the a case against the tobacco industry, I probably wouldn't be the best candidate for that jury panel. I have a some version of a lung disease, I guess. So that's why it's it's important. And you see when you have these hot topics, you have more jurors come in because you know you're gonna lose more.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_02

And that's that's a big problem. Because now you have instead of 22 people to sit there and talk to, where 22 is a really manageable number. I can memorize their names, I can talk to them individually, I can remember that this guy in the back said this, and he's talking to him about that. When I got 80 people there, or I gotta do this in groups of 40, 40 come, and the next 40 come after we get rid of them. I'm talking like this is the same shtick you had before. What are we talking? Why are we hearing this twice? Right, right, right. So it's r you lose that whole person personal touch with it. So that's a problem number one. Right. And if you have guns or uh dead bodies, someone just lost someone, everyone knows of a death in their family. And if it brings it back to that or that it's too close to home, they can't be on that. So you have more people. That's the number one problem. Right. You know, it's rare that you have a grand theft auto case and says, Hey, you know what? Back in 1985, my car was stolen, but I got over it. Okay, I'm okay with that. You know, it's a piece of shit car anyway. Never started. Air conditioner was broke, radio's broke. I'm glad they stole it. That person's still gonna be on this jury panel. You know, hey, um, I gotta listen to someone getting shot. My nephew got shot and killed in the street. I'm not gonna get over that.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_02

That's all there is to it. So that person can't be, and they probably tainted five other people while they're talking about this.

SPEAKER_03

Right, and just being affected by death. I think most everybody's been affected by death and lost somebody, right? Like whether it was killed or whether it was a car accident, whenever there's a death, you know, they have to bring so many more people off because they know we're gonna exclude so many people, or some people are gonna just jump off for costs, right?

SPEAKER_02

Well, you ought to you ought to talk about that. Like you said, like we just talked about the you know desensitizing people with the sex stuff and everything. But I remember us in Martin County doing a murder trial, and you know, it was it was a shooting, it was guns. There's lots of guns involved in this house. It's Martin County. So I asked, we had like 55 people. I asked, you know, how many people here we're gonna talk about guns? Is that a problem for some people? How many people here own guns? All but three people raised their hand. Okay. First of all, we're in Martin County, so like it was different.

SPEAKER_03

Right, right, right. Okay, we're good, I guess. Right, right.

SPEAKER_02

We'll move on to the next thing. I had 20 minutes on on gun stuff, and those three people like we don't own them, but you know, yeah, just in the middle of getting some. That's all.

SPEAKER_03

Right. So that's it.

SPEAKER_02

So it's it's all it's area affected. I mean, you go, um different crimes are are really more you know, you have a drug case in Miami, it's different than having a drug case in Pensacola.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_02

So that's the type of thing. So yeah. So you have to know where you're at. Um I try cases in other counties. I kind of try and hang around. If I go to a status hearing, I'll go and have coffee in there. You can get to five. Yeah, you got you gotta get that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, Schwarzschi was just in your talking. He was just saying he tried a case in the uh one of the things Okeechobee, I think, and he said like he was like my cousin Vinny in there, you know. They were just looking for the show, you know.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, at Okeechobee I went, I made sure I went to this the Brown Cows, really cool place, like great brownies. I sat there for an hour or so after every hearing, just to make sure, just here listen to the people, just see them, just get the vibe.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. What are you saying? I think one of the things that kind of surprised me when I initially moved up to North Carolina, um, you know, I was used to well, uh I'm used to Broward, but I love practicing in Miami. Uh everybody loves practicing in Miami after criminal defense.

SPEAKER_04

Of course.

SPEAKER_01

All right. And so then I I'm doing mostly Broward in Miami, and then I go up to Raleigh, and uh one of my first cases was a guy had, I think it was something like a tenth of a gram of cocaine. It was just like a little bit of dust in the bottom of the bag, and kind of like one of the old where's the beef cases down here that they started dismissing. Right. And so I'm like, oh, this is nothing, you know, and you know, shit. And so we go inside and I'm I'm talking to the prosecutor, and she's like, you know, this is a very serious charge. And you know, I'm being from down here and I'm kind of a smart ass, I'm like, you could vacuum my car and find more than that.

SPEAKER_02

That's typical.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, the but the the attitude when you switch areas, like when you go up to Martin County or uh Okeechobee, places like that, you know, it it's really important to get a lay of the land and the way that people react to uh different different crimes, because I could tell you that drug crimes were taken a lot more seriously in uh North Carolina than they are down here. Um DUIs were taken a whole lot more seriously. You know, down here we could actually, you know, when we take DUI cases to trial, we can win them. Right. All right. There's a lot of cases that a lot of people don't think that, but up there You still have dry counties in Carolina. Uh I don't know about anymore, but you used to. But up there, what happened was um your first trial is a bench trial, and then the Raleigh News and Observer started publishing the different judges and their conviction rates for DUIs, and all of a sudden the conviction rates flew through the roof. Oh, yeah, because the judges didn't want to get the soft on crime look. So the cases that would be easily won down here were guilty, guilty, guilty on everything.

SPEAKER_02

When I was in DC, I was in law school and uh I was internal with the public defender's office, and there was murder trials were every single day. It was the murder capital of the world at the time, and it was not uncommon. Their theory was it's an aggravated battery with one less witness. That's what the idea was, because it's there were there were two or three day trials. Boom, boom, boom. There's so many murder trials. It's just it was murder was like such a second nature. And to hear it, it didn't taint juries. I mean, yes, people were horrified by it, but it didn't, you know, we hear about it every day. Every every day. I saw three people get shot and killed in DC when I was there. Wow. And I lived grew up in South Florida. Different times? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Different times.

SPEAKER_03

How long did you live there?

SPEAKER_02

Four years.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I think it's much better now. I venture to say it's better now.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Well, I don't know. It's maybe not.

SPEAKER_03

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02

I was also we're doing private investigation and stuff. I was in Anacostia, the really bad area.

SPEAKER_03

So you were in you were in the prime areas to see it.

SPEAKER_02

It's not a very small neighborhood. The whole area is a prime area. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I think it's a good place to wrap. I don't want to go too long as we lose people. I think we had enough interesting conversation today. It could probably get us in a little bit of trouble, but it's okay.

SPEAKER_01

I've been saying anything that could get us in trouble.

SPEAKER_03

Not at all. I've been saying stuff that gets me in trouble every every podcast, probably. But thank you guys. Uh we'll we'll give you guys updates on our trials later on and see how they go. We got a long month ahead of us. Larry and I especially go. Yeah. Well, we're not gonna say that. But uh, but uh thank you guys for coming on, Mike. I appreciate you always coming on. Love you. But Larry, thank you, my trial partner, for coming on and making your way up here. I had to convince you to get on here, but thank you for coming. Yeah. And complaining about traffic the whole way up here. But to all our listening and viewers, listeners of viewers, thank you for listening. Uh please like and subscribe to the channel. Like I say, when you like and subscribe to the channel, it gives us more outreach. We get more panels like this on, more guests on. You can follow us everywhere. We're on YouTube, we're on Instagram, we're on Facebook, we're on Spotify, we're on Apple Podcasts, we're everywhere. MySpace. Um, wait, what? MySpace. We're not on MySpace. If it comes back, we'll be on MySpace. But thank you guys for listening. We love you all. Hope to see you guys soon. Thank you so much. Goodbye. Cut, we're good. Thank you, man.