Two Taps and Friends

The Truth About the Nolan Wells Investigation #83 | Dye & Rosenberg

• Daniel Rosenberg • Episode 83

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The Nolan Wells case on Horn Island is more than meets the eye. Join Danniel Rosenberg and Michael Dye on Two Taps & Friends as they dismantle the public narrative using legal forensics. We’re revealing the discrepancies between what was said and what the photographic evidence actually proves.

Why was the narrative of him being "fully clothed" pushed so hard when the photos show something else? We examine the role of the Cajun Navy, the legal strategies at play, and why "lawyering up" is the most important advice you'll ever hear, regardless of the facts.

⏰ Timestamps ⏰
00:00:00 👋 Intro
1:17 🎙️ Danny Rosenberg and Michael Dye break down the case details.
4:12 💼 The role of the Wells family and attorney Ben Crump.
6:53 🏝️ Analyzing Horn Island: Logistics and the "left phone" theory.
9:20 👕 The "Fully Clothed" discrepancy: Cajun Navy vs. Public Narrative.
11:35 📑 Autopsy results: Inconclusive findings and the independent review.
14:26 📹 Video evidence: Examining the docks and boat departures.
15:50 📞 Analyzing the 911 call: "Wake Nolan up" and background audio.
19:50 👥 Witnesses and inconsistencies: The girl on the beach and friend group accounts.
21:18 🩺 Legal forensics: Strangulation signs vs. the medical examiner's report.
24:00 🏛️ The "Mississippi History" factor and racial justice narratives.
26:50 🤐 Legal advice: Why "lawyering up" is the right move regardless of innocence.
31:40 🌊 The Horn Island current: Environmental factors and rip currents.
34:45 💧 "Dry Drowning" explained: How a person can drown with no water in the lungs.
39:21 🎥 Witness interviews: Analyzing Tresan Shepherd’s media statements.
41:50 📱 The cell phone mistake: Chain of custody and forensic admissibility.
45:30 🔚 Closing Thoughts: Real evidence vs. social media conjecture.

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SPEAKER_02

They went out on the boat there. They went, they were partying, and at some point Nolan gets separated from the rest of his guys, end up leaving without him. They find him two days later floating. They suspect that there's some kind of foul play. In the background, you hear kids saying, Give me my phone back, the allegation is. Apparently, there's hundreds of people on that island. So where would this have had to happen? No water in the lungs.

SPEAKER_04

No water in the lungs, but it it's inconclusive. It doesn't mean he didn't drown.

SPEAKER_02

So it's called dry drowning. Questions should be asked in a situation like this. This is not normal. This kid's an athlete. Apparently he could swim, right? So it it there's a lot of questions to be had here. I don't lean one way or the other here. I mean, it could very well be that these kids got in a fight with him, accidentally killed him, freaked out, threw him over the boat, and are covering all this up and have lawyered up. It could be very well but that, or it could have been this kid was drunk and he tried to swim back, couldn't catch a boat and drowned. I don't know. Today I have my esteemed colleague, attorney Michael Dye, back on to talk uh mystery cases again.

SPEAKER_04

Welcome to Two Taps and Friends. What are your favorite drink? Let's dive into another episode of Two Taps and Friends.

SPEAKER_02

Welcome back to Two Taps and Friends. I'm host of the show, Danny Rosenberg. Today I have my esteemed colleague, Attorney Michael Dye, back on to talk uh mystery cases again. Welcome back, Michael.

SPEAKER_04

Glad to be back, Danny.

SPEAKER_02

So glad to have you back on. We wanted to talk about, you know, we always talk about some of the cases that are, you know, out there and in the media and in your face. And the biggest case out there right now that we're seeing, uh, amongst others, uh, is the Nolan Wells case. Um, for the listers and viewers that aren't familiar with this case, Nolan Wells is an 18-year-old um freshman at uh Southern Miss Community College. He's a football player. He went out on the 4th of July with a bunch of his friends. Uh they're in Mississippi, and they went to a place called Horn Island, Mississippi, which is like an island. It I think it shows it here, but we have a couple photos we can put up in a minute, but we'll put them up in a minute. But it's an island where all these kids go, they take boats and they ride out. Um, they ride out to this island and they're partying, and there's a bunch of kids, apparently hundreds of kids go there, park their boats. And he went with a boatload full of people. He's with his best friend, Warren Hudson, who is this gentleman up here, the top one. That's Nolan Wells right there in the middle. And then on top with the camo hat is his best friend Warren Hudson. He's his boat. And the bottom. It was his boat, and we could put up a photo of them. Um can they can they see it on the back wall? They see it here, it's fine. So they went out and uh it was on his boat, and apparently there's new uh news. Some people are saying there was only three people with them in the group or four people. Other people say there was more, but um they went out on the boat there, they went, they were partying, and at some point Nolan gets separated from the rest of his guys, and yeah, and then we'll talk more about the details of that. But get separated, they end up leaving without him, and they get back to the wherever they're going back in Mississippi to the mainland, and an hour later or later in the evening, they realize he hasn't gotten back, they haven't heard from him. Um, they then you know call the mother of Nolan Wells, the mother of Nolan Wells calls the police, they start looking, they find him two days later floating in on Horn Island, somewhere off Horn Island, and appeared to be drowned. That's the basic facts. We'll get into the details of it, but you know, so the the a lot of questions come up. Um, first questions that come up, first of all, is you know, why did he get separated? What happened there? What were the circumstances? Um, because apparently he got separated and he didn't have his phone, he had nowhere there. And they say, his friends say that he was with a girl that he'd met and he wanted to stay back with a girl. The girl apparently says that it wasn't that. She saw him, said hello and bye. You're getting conflicting statements there. Um second thing that's come up is the the attorney, the attorneys, not the attorneys, the family. Uh, can we put up a picture of the the Wells family, Dan? The Wells family have come out and they've obviously they're devastated. Their 18-year-old is found dead. They have a lot of questions. They have made allegations that the Mississippi law enforcement over there, Jackson County law enforcement, hasn't been investigating it uh the proper way. I I don't know where that comes from, but they hired, you know, this prominent attorney, attorney Ben Crump, who is known for, you know, to tell the audience what attorney Ben Crump's known for.

SPEAKER_04

Uh racially motivated cases. Let's put it that way.

SPEAKER_02

He was uh modern-day Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton, right?

SPEAKER_04

Well, he works with Al Sharpton, too. But uh yeah, you'd say uh he I guess he would call it racial justice or something to that effect.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_04

But whenever there's a prominent case where there's a black individual involved, and uh there's been allegations of racial misconduct, he's gonna show up.

SPEAKER_02

Right. So, you know, he's come up and he's he's he's saying that he thinks it's racially motivated. He also made an allegation that Jackson County's not investigating the same way because Nolan Wells um is is uh it was is black, and his and I think the rest of the friends were all white, and it was a lot of white kids, and apparently it's not there's not that many black kids that go to the school. Well, we find out, yeah, that we find out later. But the the way it's being portrayed by the family is he's one of the only black kids there, and that this was racially motivated. They make the allegation of Jackson County. If this was for black kids that came back without their white friend, that they would have investigated it much more aggressively. I don't know if that's unfounded or not. We don't know much. We're hearing excerpts of it. Um, come to find out he's not the only black kid here. There's another witness there, uh, one of his friends, it's hard to say his name, Trasiston Shepard, is also he's he's um he's mixed. Uh, he was also there. And and so now this allegation has come out, and we're not sure what the allegation is. The allegation by the family is that this is some kind of foul play, right? Correct.

SPEAKER_04

They suspect that there's some kind of foul play and that it's not being properly investigated.

SPEAKER_02

Right. So when it comes to the foul, first of all, a lot of the things that I've heard in that when we're doing the investigating is you know, the the family's saying, why would he stay back without his phone? It's not like him to not stay with his friends to not have his phone. But when you dig in deeper, you find out, can you put up Horn Island? Can you put up, let's see, what do we have? Let's see if you could put up, let's see a photo of it first. So this is Horn Island. Can you put here you go? This is Horn Island. And apparently the boats, when they pull up, they don't pull up on shore. They pull up right there, and you have to jump out and you have to, and you jump out into waist high, waist to chest high water, and they get they make their way to the sand. And apparently everybody leaves their phones on in the boat. And apparently, in this situation, according to Warren Hudson, his friend, everybody left their boat on the console, not their boat, their phone on the console. And that would explain why he wouldn't have his phone. So the parents are saying it doesn't make sense um that he wouldn't have his phone. What's the pushback on that? Well, I mean the obvious pushback on the phone thing. What do you think?

SPEAKER_04

Here's the thing. When you when you look at it, I mean, obviously you're not gonna jump with your phone into water, uh, but I think his parents were concerned because he uh didn't think he would allow his friends to leave without giving him his phone back. I mean, like teenage kids, uh, who's gonna you know try to take your phone away from your kid?

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_04

And it's just, you know, it doesn't happen that much. So they thought it was interesting, I guess you could say they he would allow his friends to leave without uh taking his phone back.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_04

However, the opposite side of that, they're drinking.

SPEAKER_02

They're drinking. I was just gonna say that, right? And if he's with a girl, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

You know, everybody's drinking. It's not like he doesn't have means of communicating. There are apparently the friend group went out in three separate boats. So the when the one boat left, they were just figured he'd get a ride back with the other two. Right. Um, you know, it's just something that kids lose their phones all the time. Uh I don't really think it's that big of a deal. Right.

SPEAKER_02

Well, to listen to yours, let's be clear. We're not saying that that did not happen, that it's not strange. But as defense attorneys or as attorneys in general, we are conditioned to and trained to see both sides of arguments and to see what arguments can be made. So the minute you're saying something like it's not racially motivated, we look at what makes it racially motivated. Or we look at like somebody say it's accidental, which the police have come out and said that they think it's an accidental drowning. We look at what could not have made an accidental drowning. So whenever you hear us say what's the pushback, that's what we're talking about. That's what we would push back on, right? So what so there's an explanation for why he would leave it wouldn't go back with the phone. And then go ahead.

SPEAKER_04

I think that part of the problem that we're uh that the public is running into in this case is that Ben Crump has put out information that he thought was true at the time that later turned out not to be true, and he hasn't made any corrections. What is that? Okay, for example, um, they said that uh Nolan Wells was found uh on the shore at the north part of the island, I think it was, and that he was fully clothed. All right. Yeah. So when you look at him in the picture that they they took on their way over to the island, he just had a bathing suit on. So Ben Crump made a big issue about, you know, he was fully clothed. He that means he obviously wasn't swimming.

SPEAKER_06

Right.

SPEAKER_04

All right. Because who who's gonna get all their clothes on to go swimming?

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_04

All right.

SPEAKER_02

Well, when they if you could put up a photo of that, there's a photo of him going with two friends to the island. I believe it's from that day, but I hear conflicting things there. Yeah, right there. Okay, and that's Horn Island there on the side. Okay.

SPEAKER_04

And so they said he was uh when he was found, he was fully clothed. There's a group, I believe they call it the Cajun Navy, which is just a group of people that uh patrol the area, their civilians. Okay. Um, but anyway, the the Cajun Navy had said that he was fully clothed when uh he was found. However, later on, uh I believe it was Nancy Grace and Megan Kelly. Uh uh, yeah, two wonderful people.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And I'll I'll give Megan Kelly a pass because she's hot.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Um, but they uh asked the people from the Cajun Navy, when you say fully clothed, what did you mean by fully clothed? And they said, well, he wasn't undressed. He had his bathing suit on. So he wasn't fully clothed, as you might think he would be like with a shirt, shoes, pants. He was just he was found in his bathing suit. However, Ben Crump hasn't gone back and corrected any of that information.

SPEAKER_02

Right. Now, was he found in was he found in the water, or was he found like was he found like waiting in the water, or was he in the I think he was found on shore on the surf?

SPEAKER_04

Oh god.

SPEAKER_02

Do we have an obvious and what's the autopsy situation? Last I saw was pending. What do you think?

SPEAKER_04

Okay, there's there were two autopsies. All right.

SPEAKER_02

They have I know the family didn't so the families ordered an independent autopsy. I know that. But I think they're both pending, or is there something that's come back?

SPEAKER_04

No, no, they're they've both come back as inconclusive.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

You have the the uh medical examiner or the coroner, I don't know which it is in uh Mississippi, who did the autopsy and uh came back as inconclusive. Then they went ahead, the family decided that they were gonna do an independent autopsy, uh, paid for by Colin Kaepernick. Okay. Yes. And uh this uh the individual who did the autopsy was a uh doctor from Howard University in Washington, D.C. And he came back as inconclusive as well. Now there was a little bit of again unnecessary scandal added to that one, because when you when they do an autopsy, they have to take out the organs in the body. Right. And one of the things that they did down in Mississippi is they removed his his throat area, the larynx and uh esophagus. Right. So they the doctor in Mississippi still has the throat area. And the reason they're gonna remove that is they're gonna look for is there any damage to the hyoid bone? Is there anything that suggests that he was strangled? Right. The doctor in Mississippi didn't find anything, but they did not ship the throat section to the uh doctor at Howard University. And so the doctor at Howard University said, Well, uh, it's inconclusive, but I also need to, I haven't been able to examine the throat. And so uh from what I heard is that Ben Crump was making a big deal out of the fact that they didn't send the throat, therefore they're trying to hide something. However, they're not going to let that go. Uh, you know, that's gonna be something that if the doctor from Howard wants to view it, he's gonna have to go down there to Mississippi to check it out. There, I don't think you can send that in UPS or anything.

SPEAKER_02

Right. Um well back to your point. So one of the other fan the things that's that's one. So there's it looks like this attorney Crump is kind of known for stirring up controversy, though, right? He stirs the pot. Right. And then listen, he is what he is, it is what it is, but yeah, we have people have to keep that in mind, I think. So the the big thing is that the family, the other thing that they're harping on would mention earlier is why he was left behind. And there's multiple well, well, the the friends are pretty consistent with it, except for a couple other witnesses. But first off, there's a video of them at the dock. Can we play a dock video? This was by the officer Tatum, who's got a podcast. He he went there on site to kind of show the area, and there's a video of the boys getting on the boats. And you can play that, Dan. The boys this video right here, it shows them. He's showing right now Horn Island, right?

SPEAKER_05

They have audio on it, and they took three boats out. It wasn't the boat.

SPEAKER_02

But these are the see right there, that's the docks.

SPEAKER_05

If you could see the boats, it was a multitude of the boat.

SPEAKER_02

And see how many kids are there? You got one, two, three, four, five. You got people walking up there. There's some females were actually out there. So it looks to me that there's the the the account that there was three people that left is not accurate. I don't know how many people are on that boat. Going out here. And then it cuts to the the Horn Island. And the boys were yeah. So already you're kind of getting the idea of what what you're saying that it was a group of people going with multiple boats, and that and that you know, people leave at different times. I'll get a ride back with these guys, I'll get a ride back with these guys. With the way with the way the media's reporting is that he just said, I'll get a ride back with someone, right? So they say the parents saying he's not like that, he wouldn't do that, right? What's your thought on that?

SPEAKER_04

There was another uh issue about the phone. Um in the press conference again with Ben Crump, uh, there was an audio clip where somebody was saying, Give me my effing phone back. And right, let's play that. We have that clip.

SPEAKER_02

So before, damn, right before you play it, one second, let me give context. So the biggest uh thing that's come out is that there was some kind of the family's insinuating there was some kind of altercation with Nolan Wells, and that somehow he was killed in an altercation. And now this video has come out of an audio, actually, of a 911 call where they're calling about the so the owner of the boat, Warren Hudson, says that his bilge pump stopped working, right? So they were taking on water quickly, and that's the reason why they left so quickly. While he left quickly, he called also for assistance. He called 911, right? Because he was thought the boat was going down and he wasn't talking about anything but the boat pump, right? And and the boat going down. In the background, you hear kids saying, Give me my phone back, the allegation is. Yeah, and something about Nolan as well. Or did he say something about it? Wait, wake Nolan up, or somebody, wake Nolan up. You they say you hear it. Now, I can't hear it. Dan, you gotta have to play this with volume to see if the viewers can hear it, but let's play that real quick.

SPEAKER_03

The emergency call of Nolan's friends calling to have their boat towed has been released. And you can hear in the background they're saying, Wake up, Nolan, Izzy dead. It's fascinating, it is interesting, and I think it's starting to ramp up this investigation what really might have happened. So listen to this audio and then leave a comment. Tell me what you think about what is developing.

SPEAKER_00

We're going, we're thinking. Can you all please come? We have another shit. How far is the word coming up, sir?

SPEAKER_06

How far is the word coming up, sir?

SPEAKER_02

All right, so I couldn't hear much.

SPEAKER_04

I heard his name.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, so yeah, I heard yeah, his name, but I so they're saying that on the video they say somebody says, shut the fuck up. Is is wake Nolan up? Is he dead? Um, I can't get a clear hearing on that. I don't know if you did. Did you hear?

SPEAKER_04

You know how bad my hearing is.

SPEAKER_02

All right, right. So, but apparently people can hear that. So if that's the case, that makes it very interesting. So let's play that out for a second. Let's say a fight happens, right? A fight happens, somehow he gets killed in a fight, they rush to get off the island, and what they they leave the body there and they just ditch it, and then if that were the case, why would they call 911 about the bilge pump?

SPEAKER_04

That but also, you know, if somebody gets killed by uh a punch, all right, or a kick, or even choked, the autopsy is going to show that. Um, they did say that on the autopsy that there was a uh like a red mark on the back of his head, but uh it was just a red mark. It wasn't like swollen, black and blue, anything like that. And if you've seen, um I'm sure you had you've had cases where somebody died from uh from an altercation, and there's almost always a massive blow to the head, which results in uh uh brain hemorrhages, uh just in internal bleeding. Um anything that would be that severe to kill someone would be obvious in the autopsy.

SPEAKER_02

Right. Well, I will say that if something like that did happen, because the big thing is that one of the uh the girls, so they all say that he was with a girl. That's what the friends have maintained, all of them consistently, that he was with some girl and that he was cradling the girl and like whatever. He was like cuddling with a girl, and and he was like, No, I'm gonna stay and go back with her. And they actually talked to the girl, I don't know the girl's name. I I don't have that, but the girl's name, and she says something differently. She says that it was like a very brief encounter, that they didn't stay, they weren't together, and that you know, he went with his friends, and like he was saying that he was going back with his friends. So if something, I think theoretically, if something did happen and there was a rumble and somebody choked him, right, and they freaked out and all lied about it, then I I could see where the friends would uh you know stick to their story about leaving him there, but there's so many witnesses on that island, right? Apparently there's hundreds of people on that island. So where would this have had to happen? I guess maybe on the boat, and then they went back and dropped the body off. I mean, we're trying to just theorize how this could have been.

SPEAKER_04

But at the same time, if somebody People would have seen him leaving with him, right? Somebody would have seen the fight on the boat.

SPEAKER_02

Or somebody would have seen him leaving with them on the boat. That's more important.

SPEAKER_04

And also if somebody's choked to death, uh, you know, even if it if it's if it's a manual strangulation with hands, the hyoid bone is usually cracked. There's damage done to the throat area, which is one of the reasons the medical examiner. Yeah, if it's a rear naked choke, it's a blood choke, all right, you're not gonna have the the same damage, but you will have the uh blood vessels that burst in the eyes. And so that's a another telltale sign of strangulation, is when there's microscopic blood vessels bursting in the eyes. Again, they didn't find out there those.

SPEAKER_02

So none of that came up in the autopsy. So we're still uh and the Howard University autopsy, we have that yet, or we don't know.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it was it reached the same conclusion, uh, just inconclusive, can't tell the cause of death. And uh the guy from Howard wanted to examine the throat, uh the the the throat structure that was removed, uh, but hasn't been able to yet.

SPEAKER_02

And the big thing is that the mom is saying, why did they take so long to report him? But when I look at it, if they think so that they report him at 7.19 p.m., the group gets back. Uh they call his mom saying that they haven't heard from him at 11 p.m. At that point, she goes out and and freaks out and uh and calls. Now what was the timeline there again? 7.19 p.m. From what I found, they returned. Okay. And they call the mom at 11 o'clock and tell the mom, we haven't heard from Nolan. Is he home? Has he been home? He's not answering text, I guess, or whatever it is. So she says, why do they wait that long? But to push back is if they left him on the island and he says he's coming back with someone else, I mean, maybe a couple hours, like, hey, did you ever get back? What's going on? You know, I don't think that that's unusual. What's your thought on that?

SPEAKER_04

I don't think that's very unusual. Uh, you know, you leaving them behind at a party, and you just kind of, you know, wait a couple hours, then you text somebody, hey, did you make it back?

SPEAKER_02

Right. And another thing that makes it interesting, like I said, this guy, Trasitan Shepherd, who's his friend, I'm probably butchering the first name because it's a little bit weirder for the first name, who's the who's mixed, half black. And the only reason why I'm saying that is because they keep making reference to them being maybe the only black kid out there or whatever. He says he was in a fight for somehow. He was in a fight and he was angry and he was mad, and that he said goodbye to Nolan before he left. He said something quick, he saw him, but he was angry, and they got out of the boat. So that makes it interesting because now you're bringing a fight into it, right? That's uh you're you're painting it into a fight.

SPEAKER_04

So honestly, it just sounds like a bunch of teenagers behaving like teenagers.

SPEAKER_02

And being drunk, yeah, right?

SPEAKER_04

And drinking with young people. Right.

SPEAKER_02

Now, look, the elephant in the room is we're in Mississippi, right? And Mississippi has a clear history, and I'm not saying this is happening, but you can't ignore it. So if you get a civil rights activist lawyer, right, you tell a Mississippi his ears are gonna work up, right? Because we all know the long, ugly history that Mississippi had with racism a long time ago, though. Yeah, right. I that there's I don't know that this is still happening. I'm sure there's always underlying racism, and this that's never gonna go away. Nobody's denying that. But the systematic racism of uh of law enforcement, that's also there, but to just ignore and investigate, I don't know, right? I don't know.

SPEAKER_04

Here's the way I kind of look at that. All right, that this happened, you know, Mississippi's really horrendous past with racism that was 60, 70 years ago. All right. And I mean you ever date a girl whose ex cheated on them, and so everything that you do, she she always accuses you of cheating. She's holding you responsible for the guys that she dated before.

SPEAKER_02

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04

All right. And kind of look at it like that. You know, it's like you these kids uh yes, they're in Mississippi, but these are a bunch of kids who are friends with a black eye. And it's kind of being held against them that you know they that they're friends with a black eye. Right. And it's not being held against them by their peers, it's being held against them by uh the racial justice warriors.

SPEAKER_02

Right. So, you know, it's aren't from that area.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, that had their press conference in New York City. Right. So you know, it it just seems to me like it's trying to hold these kids responsible for the behaviors of their great-grandparents.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_04

It doesn't seem right to me.

SPEAKER_02

Well, look, that's always going to be there. And look, there's arguments, there's pushback on that too, right? That there's systematic racism, it's very hard to kill, especially in areas like that. Um but from what I hear, this is a pretty tight-knit group. Yeah. And uh it's a tight-knit community. Um, and look, another thing is being a lot's being made out of this, which irks me. And look, to a to a non-lawyer or what you call a layman, someone that doesn't practice in all, which are pretty much these people that are commenting on some of our episodes, telling us we don't know what we're talking about. I love that. I get some of the comments about you guys clearly don't know how to look at evidence. I'm like, okay, really? We don't know how to look at evidence. But you on your couch in Arkansas, you know how to look at all the evidence, right? Your degree of Facebook University. Oh, that was AI. That's your big allegation for everything. That was AI. That was it. We did the Charlie Kirk video, they were just all over us. Like, oh, you guys clearly you're just being fooled by everything. But the big they make light make reference to the fact that these kids have how have all hired lawyers. Oh, they lawyered up, they lawyered up. But look, like I tell listeners and viewers, if law enforcement's contacting you, especially in a situation like this, my advice would be to lawyer up. Oh, yes. Because if you're the last people that were with this individual, okay, it's nobody's to say that you can't help the investigation, but if you're a suspect, law enforcement could have many ways, not saying law enforcement's bad, but uh you have a detective that has a hunch his way and he's trying to sometimes they make the case the way they want to make the case. And that's why when when she makes, when the parents, the family makes an allegation in Jackson County. I listen, I don't just say just because you question investigators, but what are you questioning them on? Is it just the general you're not investigating because my son's black? Could that be part of it? Probably. I mean, not probably. I would say maybe. I don't want to say probably, but maybe. Um, but in the situation where they get lawyers, this is the prime situation where you need a lawyer because you need to know what situation, if you're not a lawyer, you don't know. What I tell people is law enforcement and the state or the federal government, they have to connect all the dots. The duties on them, not you at all, right? The problem is that when you speak to law enforcement, and many people are intelligent or know how to talk, and they think they could speak and be civil, and that's great, but you don't know what dot they're missing or what dot they're trying to make happen, right? So you answer a question innocently, like, yeah, I was with them on the boat. I said bye. I was the last person, boom, you're the last person that saw him on the boat, right? Yeah. And whether you did it or not, now you're the prime suspect in a case. So you have to have an expert that's with you that can navigate and say to you, let's be careful here, or at least, you know, vet out law enforcement and say, what are you guys looking at? Is he a prime suspect? And if he is, it's in his best interest to not talk at all and let them connect the dots, right? Why are you gonna help out anything, right? What's your thought on that?

SPEAKER_04

That's right. I don't think that bringing in uh a guy like Ben Crump helps the family. Now, if they wanted to get attention to the situation, which I understand because they just lost their child, that's you know w one thing, all right? They they got the attention to the situation. However, the the next issue becomes that you brought in somebody who stirs the pot, like st and accuses a lot of people of wrongdoing, and he he's pushing this narrative as foul play. So whereas the police might have just been investigating it as uh, you know, hey, kid got drunk and drowned, let's just, you know, to see if we can connect the dots and you know, move on. Now he's injecting possible homicide, manslaughter, all sorts of other things involved in it. Uh and maybe maybe he's right, but uh it seems like that, well, the intelligent person is a lot less likely to cooperate when they're being investigated for uh homicide or manslaughter.

SPEAKER_02

Right. So one of the first questions we ask is my guy, is my guy a potential witness or a suspect? Well, at this point, I haven't ruled him out as a suspect. Okay, well, it makes it very difficult to talk, then, right? Because I'm gonna might give, even if people don't understand that even if you're innocent and you say something that they are looking for, they're gonna use that against you. Now, here's the question I do have. If he was to stay and he stayed, right? Like they say he stayed, where are all the witnesses saying that he was there with them after the fact? I saw him. What's the timeline? I'm not hearing about this timeline. Like if they left at 7.19, are there people that saw him between 719 and 11 o'clock? That's what I'm not hearing in the media. That's something that law enforcement might be holding close, right? Close, I mean, right? Right. That would be the primal thing, right? Can you put him there after those kids have left? And if you can, the kids are, you know, either exonerated or it changes a lot of uh the suspicion. What's your thought on that? Have you heard anything, first of all, about people putting him there on the beach afterwards?

SPEAKER_04

No. I mean, the the only thing that I know is his body was found there afterwards. Did, you know, was this a case where if he was thrown overboard, would he, you know, were the currents such that he would float back there? Don't know.

SPEAKER_02

Um That's interesting.

SPEAKER_04

But at the same time, you know, he he was found on the beach. So it seems that he uh he he was still there after they left, obviously. Well pretty obviously. I mean, there are some there are some scenarios where he could wash ashore. Let's put it that way.

SPEAKER_02

Well, for what I hear, which another thing we didn't we need to add in for context, there's a really strong current right around that island. A rip current. A rip current, a real bad one. And apparently the locals will say that many strong swimmers have actually drowned there that have been there a hundred times. Yeah. So it is not out of the question that maybe he he tried to swim to a boat and he got caught in a current. Mind you, all these kids are heavily intoxicated, I would assume. At the I I don't know all of them, but they're drinking, right? There's a lot of drinking involved July 4th. They're there. I mean, we're talking now, you're getting into close to evening hours. A lot of them probably stayed there till really late to watch fireworks. I don't know what the whole thing is there. So there's just a lot of ingredients in there.

SPEAKER_04

Drinking, and you've also got to assume that there is drugs.

SPEAKER_02

Right. Add that in, right? These kids are 18, 19 years old. They're probably smoking pots, some of them are probably on hallucinogens, uh, pills, who knows?

SPEAKER_04

Anything, a plethora, especially any any type of drug that there is was probably there. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02

Especially in a town like Mississippi, those towns, they get down because there's not much to go, right?

SPEAKER_04

There's not much to do. Yeah, and it's time to let loose.

SPEAKER_02

You really kind of get crazy, probably, you know. This is just me making an assumption. But I know in the small towns, sometimes they're crazier, you know. But look, either way, it's a tragedy. It's a it's a shame this young man's lost his life. It's horrible. And um, but I think that some point they are going to get to the bottom of it. Um when you bring the race card into it, though, it really, really it changes a lot here. And I don't know. And if they have they presented any evidence of, I mean, besides the history of Mississippi, but any local racist evidence, that'd be, I'd be interested. Ben Crump wanted maybe some of these investigators being racist, some of these kids being racist, because these kids they all sound pretty well spoken, intelligent. They don't seem eminently can't you can't really spot a racist by talking to them, right? That's something that's in people's hearts or minds. Yeah. But um I, you know, I'd have to hear a lot more to just immediately go that route.

SPEAKER_04

Ben Crump is a lot like Al Sharpton in the fact that he sees a racial boogeyman behind everything.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_04

So um his whole, I mean, that that's his whole shtick, is, you know, everything's racist. Like uh who's that um Congresswoman, uh Jasmine Crockett. You know, everybody cheered for Spain because they were racist. All right. Uh, you know, everything, everything is through a a racial lens. Um, I don't think it helps the situation that much when you're you're planting that in people's minds.

SPEAKER_02

Um if you would choose if you cheered for Spain, you you're cheered for Argentina if you're racist there. It was Argentina has no black people on the team.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02

Uh yeah, at all. That's the whole thing. Argentina's response is we don't have a lot of black people in Argentina. Yeah, we all there, but that has its own history. We're not even gonna go there.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, well, at the same time, you can be like France and import them from Africa to play for your team. Right.

SPEAKER_02

Well, here's the thing it's gonna rely heavily on the autopsy. Did autopsy say drowning?

unknown

No.

SPEAKER_04

There were no, there wasn't any water in the lungs.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. That's important.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, you'd think you would have brought that up a little bit earlier.

SPEAKER_04

I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02

No water in the lungs.

SPEAKER_04

No water in the lungs, but it it's inconclusive. It doesn't mean he didn't drown.

SPEAKER_02

How is that?

SPEAKER_04

Um because Explain that a little bit. Uh it's hard to explain because when there's always a scientific possibility of anything, which is why when we go ahead and we get like a blood test back and they didn't find any alcohol in the in the in the person's system, and we say, so the person was not intoxicated by alcohol. They say, no, we we did not find alcohol in his system. They will never say that the person was not into they always say that it was not detected. Okay. They'll never come to the ultimate conclusion that, you know, the the person But uh scientifically, how is that?

SPEAKER_02

And I know you're not an expert.

SPEAKER_04

I on drowning, I do not know. Right. Um the I'm trying to, you know, the way they it was that I understood it is that the water in the lungs is not present. Well, it's present in most drownings, but not 100%. I guess if he was tilted upside down or something and it could drain out, uh I just don't know how it would happen.

SPEAKER_02

I'm literally trying to do research research on it right now. And this is look, this is AI. Okay, so this is either here in Chat GPT, Chat. No, I don't know what I just Googled, right? And this is not where I get my information, but this just to see if this is general, you can tell if it's a generalized thing, right? So I ask can a person drown and not have water in the lungs after autopsy. Yes, a person can drown without having significant water in their lungs in autopsy. This happens in, wow, this happens roughly 10% to 15% of drowning cases when a severe spasm of the larynx, the vocal cord closure, seals the airway during submersion, preventing water from entering the lungs. So it's called dry, so it's called dry drowning. It's called the laryngosm. Water touching the back of the throat triggers a reflex that tightly shuts the vocal cords. Lack of fluid, because the airway remains sealed until cardiac arrest and death due to lack of oxygen, little to no water enters the lungs. Terms like dry drowning are largely outdated in modern medicine, but forensic pathologists recognize that death is caused by oxygen deprivation, not the volume of lug uh of uh liquid in the lungs. There you go. All right, so it doesn't mean he didn't drown. Now, here's a kicker. Like if I'm the defense attorney and I had let's say this kid, um, this kid, what's his name again? Nolan Wells. No, not Nolan. I know him, the the kid, his friend. Warren Hudson. Let's say Warren Hudson, the kid at the top of the photo, let's say he gets charged with murder, jumping out there as a defense attorney. How are you defending this?

SPEAKER_04

Inconclusive cause of death.

SPEAKER_02

Inconclusive cause of death, one, right? If he killed him, there would be signs of trauma, asphyxiation, right? One. Secondly, we what we mentioned, right? What would be the major thing, right? Timeline.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

If my guy's calling, and and look, when he's calling about the bilge pump, right, we don't know where he is, right? He could be right off the island, he could be on his way back. But they'll be able to find that with the GPS. GPS. GPS shows him leaving at time. So you know the timeline. So you find witnesses on that island that had him there. Nolan Wells now, right? Yep. Now, here's the problem. When the cops are out, the media's everywhere, right? All these kids are drinking on drugs, right? I don't want to say all of them, but a lot of them probably.

SPEAKER_04

You can probably go with all.

SPEAKER_02

Well, if you are the one that says, Yeah, I saw him at eight o'clock on the island, you are now the last person that saw him, right? Yeah, now you're you become a prime suspect. You call any lawyer, they're gonna tell you that. Like, so it's probably very difficult for the investigators to get the information that they need in this case, too.

SPEAKER_04

Uh it should be pretty difficult.

SPEAKER_02

Now, where are they? Do they have this? Are they calling it an open investigation still, or are they made some but you but they've made some kind of accidental drowning statement, right?

SPEAKER_04

Aaron Powell That's what that's what they believed it to be. I think the authorities uh believed it to be an accidental drowning. The family is saying that they didn't conduct a full thorough invest thorough investigation that they would have conducted if uh Nola Wells were white, and that's about where it stands. You've had the two autopsies, both have come back inconclusive.

SPEAKER_02

Um, this kid Tressiston Shepherd's interesting. Apparently he was close. I don't know if he went out on a boat with them, I'm not sure, but he was in their friend group and he's the mixed kid, and he's going on Officer Tatum's show, and he's literally given a full interview. So clearly, I don't think he's lawyered up. He's got vital information he's putting out there. He says the last time he saw him, he was like cuddling the girl, but that he'd been in an altercation to this kid, not Nolan. Yeah, and he was angry and he was leaving because he was angry, and he said something sly to him, like about the girl, made a comment about the girl, and then got on the boat and told him he said I told him I loved him. I don't know if this kid's full of shit, but he's very willing to speak to the media. Um, and he did mention being in a fight, so I don't think he's got a lawyer. Because as a lawyer, you'd be like, What the hell are you saying? Yeah, why are you in your mouth? Shut right up. Right. Right. For listeners and viewers, the best advice you'll ever get is to shut the fuck up, right?

SPEAKER_04

And that's legal advice for me. And if you think that you should talk, you're wrong. Shut the fuck up.

SPEAKER_02

You remember it was it was it you or me? I don't even remember anymore where the judge caught us telling the guy to shut the fuck up. That was you, that was you.

SPEAKER_04

What was it? He stood up and he's like, I wanted to say something, but my attorney told me to shut the fuck up. Right. And you were like, and what did Judge say he said? Sounds like some pretty solid advice. So you sure you want to talk?

SPEAKER_02

Exactly, exactly. But listen, in all seriousness, it's we're gonna be following this for you guys and trying to, and I'm sure more information will be coming out. Um listen, when a young kid like this dies and nobody has an answer, all these things are gonna come up, especially in Mississippi. I understand it. I understand it. I don't know um what happened with law enforcement that the family felt they needed to get, you know. That that's one more. What's the read you have on the family? I haven't gotten a real read on them. And I I feel bad. They just lost their son.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I I think the family is devastated and they're reeling and they're like just grasping for anything. Right. And so I don't know. It's a stage of grief. Yeah, I I don't I don't say that the family's done anything nefarious. Yeah, we're not gonna knock out the family. We're not gonna do that. Not there. Right. Well, one thing that I do think that the family made a mistake was um they did get his cell phone back, and they said that they wanted they went through it to see what, and they were surprised that he hadn't posted anything on Snapchat because apparently he this kid lived on Snapchat. But he didn't have his phone. Correct. Right. So they thought that was weird. So they decided that instead of giving the phone to the police, that they were gonna have their own forensic evaluation of the phone done, which is a big mistake because you're going to have a difficult now that we know that the phone's been with another person, but passed around.

SPEAKER_02

Chain of custody is a problem.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, well, I mean, the ability to authenticate the phone, uh, the the phone data is going to be very difficult. Uh it might interfere with their ability to get any data from the phone into evidence.

SPEAKER_02

Right. So for listeners and viewers, let's you want to explain that?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, you have to go ahead when you present a piece of evidence, you have to be able to go ahead and say that this is what I proclaim it is. Like this is the state of the phone. Right. Yeah, and this is the this was the state of the phone at the time that I received it.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_04

And so it's like, have you made any additions, deletions, or alterations to the data of the phone since it was since you received it? And the answer should be no. But in this case, they've been through it, which does alter data, and they've handed it over to third parties who, even if it's just to make a forensic copy, it's gonna leave some sort of uh data in the phone, which means that it may not, the data from the phone may not be admissible in court. The best thing that they should have done was to give the police the phone. However, again, uh I think it was Ben Crump who said that the family didn't trust the police so that they weren't gonna do it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so that makes issues. I mean, right there, you want that you want them when I'm authenticating, is this in the same, substantially the same condition? Those are the questions we ask to be able to say, all right, judge, we're asking, you know, that you admit this into evidence and the judge will hear it. Now, if you're saying it went to this person, went to this person, you're muddying the waters up, and it just creates angles for a defense attorney later to attack it. So you just don't want to do it. And and Ben Crump, is he a criminal defense attorney? No, no, right? He's clearly not.

SPEAKER_04

I don't even know if he's tried a case. Um, I haven't heard anything about I've heard his firm has gotten a couple verdicts, but I haven't heard anything about him being a uh trial lawyer or any kind of in-courtroom.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's problematic. I mean, so it's just unfortunately, hopefully that and look, and if it comes out that that they are hiding something, then the guy's a genius. So who knows? I don't know about a genius, but he's asking the right questions. And and questions should be asked in a situation like this. It's just not normal. This kid's an athlete. Apparently, he could swim, right? So it it there's a lot of questions to be had here. Um, but I think you know, mistrusting from the beginning is going to be difficult, makes things difficult, makes things complicated, makes things harder for all people involved, but we'll see. I don't know which way uh I don't lean one way or the other here. I mean, it could very well be that these kids got in a fight with him, accidentally killed him, freaked out, threw him over the boat, and are covering all this up and have lawyered up. It could be very well bad, or it could have been this kid was drunk and he tried to swim back, couldn't catch a boat and drowned. I don't know. Yeah, hard to say. We'll find out, we'll keep it up and we'll bring it to you more as we find out more. We'll come back and we'll bring it to you. But any final thoughts on this? More questions than answers. Exactly, as usual. But you know, what I will say is be wary of social media, right? Even that video, I didn't hear those statements. I I didn't hear so, and there's apparently a lot of doctored photos that have been out there. There's one photo that was timestamped for a week before that people were talking about. Oh, with him in the pool. Yeah, yeah, it was him in the pool, right? And uh so you got to be really careful on this. And and what I will tell listeners and viewers, and it's really fun to go down conspiracy lines. And I'll tell these listeners and people have just been blasting in the comments, especially on the Charlie Kirk thing. Like you can go down these things when it comes to the court of law, you need real evidence. And AI photos are not gonna cut it in court, all right? And none of this conjecture is not gonna cut it in court. So, what we're evaluating is that, okay? And it could be that maybe we've shown a photo that's altered, but before it gets to the court, they will find out. And it won't pass muster and it won't pass the chain of custody authentication test that we talked to you guys about. But thanks for coming on. We'll be back talking about it, I'm sure, Mike. Um, and to all my listens of viewers, thank you for watching. Two taps and friends. Please like, subscribe to the channel. Like we say, if you like, subscribe to the channel, it gives us more outreach, uh, gives us more juice. We can come out and get more people. We'll be bringing more guests and analyze more situations for you. You can follow us everywhere. We're on Instagram, YouTube, we're on uh iHeart. We're on all kinds of podcasts. We're everywhere. Literally, the marketing team does a great job, recording team does a great job. Uh we'll be back with you guys soon. Love you all. See you soon. Goodbye. Cut