Ep 030: Why Even Top Leaders Fear Public Speaking—and What Devin Sarno Teaches to Fix It

What do a teenage debate champion, a C-suite executive, and a karaoke-dodging jazz singer all have in common? Yep—public speaking anxiety.

In this episode of She Takes The Lead, I sit down with the fantastic and fun Devin Sarno—founder of Parlay Communicators, keynote speaker, and public speaking coach—to unpack why so many of us freeze up when it’s time to speak in front of others... even if we’re literally pros.

Devin shares how her theater background and coaching competitive speech and debate for teens shaped her unique, empathy-first approach to helping people use their voice without fear (or fake pep talks). From awkward boardroom requests to "just sing something" conference room horror stories, we talk about why even the most seasoned professionals can feel like total frauds with a mic in hand.

You’ll learn:

• Why imposter syndrome and stage fright are basically evil twins
• How to build trust when you only have 60 seconds and a shaky voice
• The key to sounding like a leader—even when you’re internally screaming
• What to do when a performance becomes about proving people wrong (hint: don’t do it)
• How introverts can connect authentically without oversharing or trauma-dumping (yep, we said it)

Whether you’re pitching, presenting, or just trying to talk to another parent at the school bake sale without breaking into a flop sweat—this one’s for you.

Listen now and learn how to stop white-knuckling your way through every conversation. Your voice deserves to be heard—without the panic.

Want more?  Click follow, subscribe, leave a review and 5 stars always helps!

Sign up for The TRIBE newsletter for real-time updates, freebies, and favorite finds at www.carolepodell.com

Watch like and subscribe to She Takes The Lead podcast on YouTube.

Say hi to Carole, @carolepodell on Instagram, LinkedIn, or Facebook.

Like free stuff? Get it here!

Disclaimer

Transcript

00:00.17

three. And we're on. Hi, Devin. How are you?

00:07.95

Devin Sarno

I'm doing great. Thank you so much for having me here today. I can't wait to chat and drink some tea together.

00:13.08

Amazing. Cheers. Cheers to that. Although I like your mug more than mine by far.

00:17.33

Devin Sarno

Thank you.

00:18.21

Yeah.

00:18.63

Devin Sarno

These are a gift. They were handmade, I think, in Tennessee. I feel bad.

00:22.03

Oh,

00:22.36

Devin Sarno

i can't I can't pitch the artisan because it was a gift.

00:24.68

All right.

00:25.43

Devin Sarno

Beautiful.

00:25.82

Well, you'll pitch the the friend who gave you the gift and the artist and energetically will have gotten something from it.

00:30.95

Devin Sarno

Yes.

00:32.78

um So tell me a little about yourself. Introduce yourself a little bit to to our listeners.

00:38.59

Devin Sarno

Sure. um So I am a public speaking and presentation strategist and a keynote speaker. um And what I do when I'm not doing that is I coach competitive speech and debate here in Denver, Colorado for the George Washington speech and debate program. And I absolutely love it. I love working with teens. I spend every day with them. I travel all over the country with them and They make me so happy.

01:05.24

Devin Sarno

at they're They're so wonderful. If you don't have teens in your life that you're investing in and talking to, I highly recommend it. um And then, I know.

01:11.69

You don't hear that that much, you know.

01:14.51

Devin Sarno

I'm always so shocked by it because that's what people say. Like, you work with teens. Ooh, you work with in high school. And I am so blessed to say, not only as a teacher, but as just a human being, that I actually love my job.

01:26.37

Devin Sarno

Like, it's amazing.

01:26.72

Oh wow. I mean, that's, that's a statement in and of itself, but yeah.

01:30.06

Devin Sarno

Yeah. And I mean, I'm working a lot of hours. like I work all day in a classroom. And then some evenings, I'm going to work after with specific kids. But then have we have tournaments basically starting in September all the way through June, essentially every weekend.

01:46.96

Devin Sarno

um So we're not necessarily going every Saturday.

01:47.09

Oh my gosh. Okay.

01:49.84

Devin Sarno

But I would say one to two Saturdays a month I'm working. And then we travel ah to another part of the country about once a month on average. so

01:59.60

Wow. That's, what that's a lot. the and You have a family, right?

02:03.33

Devin Sarno

I do. I have i a husband and two kids, six and three. and It's a team effort. you know he He's great.

02:09.16

That is a team effort. Yeah.

02:11.09

Devin Sarno

he loved He loves hanging out with the kids. you know i I married somebody whose goal in life was to be a dad and he's in his sweet spot right now. so He's super great.

02:18.25

Uh, I mean, that sounds real.

02:19.97

Devin Sarno

He hangs out with them and I i go stay in a hotel in New York, San Francisco, Texas, somewhere and hang out with a bunch of teens.

02:28.62

The hotel part certainly sounds really fun. I have to say I do like, I do like teens when they're cool, but I don't know when, you know, I'm not sure I would like all teens.

02:33.94

Devin Sarno

yeah

02:36.91

Devin Sarno

I don't even know if I would like all teams either because these teams I get to know like so so well and so closely with this type of environment you know we're talking about real issues and you know we're really discussing things and

02:37.63

So we'll just leave it at that.

02:44.19

Yeah.

02:47.67

Yeah.

02:51.23

Devin Sarno

I have kids that I'm very close to now that have graduated and gone on. And when two of them graduated, I think they graduated in 2019, in their Brad cards, I had added it up because they were very competitive and they really loved to travel.

03:04.49

Devin Sarno

um And we had stayed 72 nights together in a hotel over the whole career.

03:08.72

Oh my gosh. Wow.

03:11.37

Devin Sarno

yeah We get to know each other really well.

03:12.15

That is a lot of, yeah, that's,

03:15.19

Devin Sarno

It's a little bit different than like your English teacher that you had four years.

03:17.53

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

03:19.11

Devin Sarno

No, it's not quite true. Yeah.

03:21.13

So actually that's a good question. When you're working with someone like that, I mean, obviously teenagers, it doesn't really matter the age. I would think like knowing them probably is is is a big deal in terms of how you're helping them to communicate or everything.

03:27.21

Devin Sarno

Thanks.

03:34.50

Devin Sarno

Yeah, so true, because I'm a big believer that you should be being yourself on stage. You should be being your authentic self. So while I'm trying to draw kids out of their shell, because I think a lot time a lot of times when you go on stage, you make your box and your personality this big, um I'm here to open up that box.

03:51.35

Right.

03:53.84

Devin Sarno

But I'm not here to transform it into like a replica of me or a replica of some other super competitive kid, because You'll never have fun and really at some point you'll hit a ceiling and you won't be as competitive.

04:07.05

Right.

04:07.17

Devin Sarno

So get to know these kids and knowing their comedy styles, knowing their passions, knowing Just the little idiosyncrasies about them allows me to then help them, especially if they're speech writing or maybe they're in an event that has a lot of humor in it, help them to become themselves on stage and not version of somebody else.

04:16.16

Yeah.

04:26.98

Yeah.

04:28.81

Devin Sarno

And then hopefully, authentically be themselves more in life, right? Like, you can be yourself on stage.

04:32.93

Right.

04:35.06

Devin Sarno

And I'm here saying like, that's the person you should be. That's how you should act. That's what you should say.

04:38.75

Yeah.

04:39.93

Devin Sarno

And then you win an award for it.

04:40.09

Yeah. Right.

04:42.76

Devin Sarno

What a like amazing resonating thing for a kid to realize like, oh, I should just be myself all the time.

04:47.87

Yeah. Yeah.

04:51.39

Yeah.

04:51.55

Devin Sarno

So find that version of themselves that is true and authentic, but like awesome.

04:51.75

Yeah. Yeah. Like a confidence builder. Right.

05:00.55

That's so cool, that's so cool. ah Do you, um how did you start doing this? Like where this is a, you know, specific line of, yeah, this is a specific trajectory.

05:07.29

Devin Sarno

Yeah, you don't fall into like speech and debate every day, yeah.

05:10.82

Yeah, how'd you start doing this?

05:11.54

Devin Sarno

Actually, I'm one of the rare ones in the community, because speech and debate is kind of, I don't know why that I'd call it a hidden secret, but it is the largest academic activity in the United States.

05:21.37

Hmm.

05:22.12

Devin Sarno

There's some stats and research out there that it's the number one extracurricular activity that colleges look for. um At my school, it happens to be an honors level elected, and we're super blessed in that way.

05:32.51

Devin Sarno

But at most schools, it's an after-school activity.

05:34.88

Right.

05:35.17

Devin Sarno

so um it's It's a huge community but it's kind of one of those insular ones that if you don't know about it, you don't think about it.

05:41.67

Yeah.

05:41.88

Devin Sarno

So ah most coaches did it in high school. most coaches kind of like fell in love with it in high school and neither knew they were going to coach or knew they were going to teach and now they're coaching.

05:48.33

Yeah.

05:52.37

Devin Sarno

I did, I grew up doing theater.

05:52.84

Hmm.

05:54.39

Devin Sarno

um Like I came out of the womb looking for a movie.

05:56.41

Yay, theater kicks.

05:57.33

Devin Sarno

Like I was like their center. And so I did that my whole life and didn't know that speech and debate, what it was. And then I got formally trained, college was theater, lived in l LA ah for a while doing theater. And then when my life kind of directed me back to Denver, I was, my goal in life was never to be famous or like a celebrity. My goal was always to use my degree without having to have a second job. So like, I was hoping to someday make it in l LA that I didn't have to be a bartender or a waitress or a something that I could live on

06:35.00

Devin Sarno

things that were acting related or whatever, whether that be acting, directing, whatever.

06:40.36

Yeah.

06:40.78

Devin Sarno

And so when I came to Denver, I was seeking out opportunities um and I was directing theater at the time and came across someone who saw something in me and said, you know, do you You do theater, yeah.

06:57.80

Devin Sarno

You work with kids, yeah. And so um there is this side of speech and debate that kind of looks a lot like competitive acting. So that's where they saw the connection. So they put me in contact with the woman, Mary Rose Cohen, who runs our program in late January of 2012.

07:08.51

Oh.

07:15.22

Devin Sarno

And I walked in the door and

07:15.75

OK. Mm hmm.

07:20.29

Devin Sarno

met a few kids, just a few kids and I knew immediately that I was hooked and I was volunteering at the time. I was just like, this is cool.

07:28.28

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

07:29.26

Devin Sarno

I just never walked back out and now I've been there since then and paid now and falling in love with the world of speech and debate and working with teens and

07:34.47

OK, it's fine.

07:41.00

Devin Sarno

ah But a few years ago, um I realized I have been so kind of almost like echo chamberry. I spent my whole life on stage with actors.

07:51.05

Devin Sarno

I went to college with actors. And then I left LA, who I mean, everybody in LA is performing in some way.

07:57.56

yeah Yeah, they're all in show business mostly.

07:59.27

Devin Sarno

um Yeah, and then I headed to Denver and started immediately with this you know super high level speech and debate program where kids are maybe coming to me at 14 scared to speak, but they're leaving at 18 powerhouses.

08:15.44

Wow.

08:15.66

Devin Sarno

And so in my mind, everybody gets this training somewhere because I really hadn't spent a lot of time with people, even though I heard that statistic, even though you always hear public speaking is the number one fear or number two fear or whatever.

08:30.52

Yeah, yeah.

08:30.76

Devin Sarno

ah I really didn't know those people.

08:33.84

Yeah.

08:34.38

Devin Sarno

And so I started to hear from more and more friends that were in the corporate world or different spaces how how true that was and so I realized adults need this too ah and I can offer that to them and I really like doing it and I like speaking and so i I branched out and I have my own company and and I'm offering training to adults and I keynote speak for companies that can bring me in for their employees and stuff because not everybody gets this education and they should and

08:47.16

Yeah.

09:04.28

For sure, for sure. And you coach adults also. like you you get That's awesome.

09:07.62

Devin Sarno

and

09:08.95

do you can they like Do you do it online or does it have to be live?

09:13.21

Devin Sarno

Both. So especially with the, I mean, obviously being in person is just a wonderful space to be in and in allows for a lot. But yeah, since the pandemic, I have coached online repeatedly.

09:25.17

Devin Sarno

I mean, I taught speech and debate online for a year. um but And then once we went to school and we were in person, we were still competing online for a year.

09:29.91

Oh, wow.

09:34.08

Devin Sarno

So I am well versed in coaching public speaking

09:34.50

Right.

09:38.54

Devin Sarno

through Zoom. Yeah.

09:39.60

Oh, fantastic. Oh, that's very cool.

09:40.94

Devin Sarno

yeah

09:41.56

So and they're all like Devin Sarno is where we find you and all the ways and sets.

09:45.14

Devin Sarno

Yeah, on all my LinkedIn and all my social media, it's Devin Sarno.

09:48.05

Yeah.

09:48.26

Devin Sarno

like My company is Parlay Communicators. But yeah, i I just want to help kids, adults, whoever stand on stage and feel in their power. Yeah, because it it can be and it doesn't have to be a stage.

09:57.10

That's awesome.

09:58.79

Devin Sarno

It can be like inside a room. But wherever you have anxiety, speaking out and using your voice, and want I want to help change that.

10:00.76

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

10:07.46

It's funny that you say that because I, um you know, I'm, ah I was also a theater kid. I was a performer. I was in a rock band when I was in my twenties. I was also, you know, I was on on the stage. I did TV and film, not a ton, but an off.

10:20.48

Devin Sarno

right

10:20.50

And then I was behind the camera for years, like so certainly for like 15 years. So certainly that shouldn't be um I shouldn't in any area have like any kind of um, fear of that kind of thing.

10:32.25

But I'll tell you whenever I was, once I was sort of more in the corporate universe, whenever someone would find out I was a singer or like in that environment, they'd be like, Oh, can you sing something?

10:42.49

Now, first of all, singing in a conference room is insane, but, uh, for me is insane. But at the same time, I'm terrified of it.

10:48.48

Devin Sarno

say

10:50.79

And I'm, I can, I'm a public speaker.

10:52.45

Devin Sarno

you

10:52.63

I can, I, like I said, I've sung in front of like tons and tons of people I've done it my whole life. Um, and but if you put me just in a conference room with a bunch of people doing that, it's it's genuinely like I get nervous and I'm like, this feels terrible.

11:07.31

It doesn't feel anything like it should say almost same with karaoke, almost same karaoke.

11:10.21

Devin Sarno

It

11:11.25

Devin Sarno

Oh, I want karaoke.

11:12.67

Yeah.

11:13.33

Devin Sarno

I have held the lead in full-scale three-hour musicals.

11:16.74

her

11:16.98

Devin Sarno

And they were like, oh, will you karaoke? And I was like, no, no.

11:19.95

No, no, it's very different.

11:20.98

Devin Sarno

No, no, no.

11:22.79

Very, very different.

11:22.97

Devin Sarno

Yeah, very decent.

11:23.73

Yeah. Uh-huh.

11:24.82

Devin Sarno

And so I was like, do they have song time? Because otherwise, I can't.

11:28.63

Right. Right. Right. Right. Right.

11:30.19

Devin Sarno

Like, no.

11:30.41

I haven't rehearsed. I don't know the key.

11:31.89

Devin Sarno

Yeah.

11:32.29

I haven't talked to the music. Right. Exactly. Exactly.

11:34.92

Devin Sarno

Who's the antagonist? I can't. Do they know me?

11:36.64

Right. Exactly.

11:37.37

Devin Sarno

No. I can't do it.

11:39.51

That's amazing. Yeah, it's it's it's it's just to all different muscles and I guess that was leading me to um you know, I have now that I've been you know, I transitioned from television production to um Corporate finance financial services. So I it's a big jump and I have now I actually coached um um Sorry, I've actually coached um like c-suite uh leaders presenting their work you know like in if they're speaking at an engagement etc etc or they're on a panel i've actually coached that but what i find is that they're

12:20.09

they don't like it. Like these senior people who speak in front of a lot of people all the time and in certain environments really do not like it. That's not why they're there, but they have this fear of public speaking.

12:29.63

Devin Sarno

Mm hmm.

12:32.17

Devin Sarno

Yep.

12:32.79

I mean, that's the how many people have this fear of public speaking.

12:35.99

Devin Sarno

Hey.

12:35.99

And now I have several friends, I guess, as I've kind of gone up that ladder that are in spaces that they're great communicators.

12:44.63

Devin Sarno

Yeah.

12:45.85

They're great communicators, one-on-one, even 10-on-one like in a meeting. But when it's time to present an idea, it's very, very different.

12:56.41

Devin Sarno

yeah

12:56.45

Can you tell me a little bit about like how you would talk through somebody who is trying to, to who is a leader, and but but you know afraid that way?

13:03.92

Devin Sarno

Yeah.

13:06.53

Devin Sarno

You know, it's so interesting you bring that up because I just, this past, you know, couple of months, I've been working with a CEO in their space.

13:17.04

Devin Sarno

They needed to get up and address at a town hall. So it was going to be the entire company. And I want to say at that point, the company, 600 people maybe, and some were going to be online and some in person.

13:22.73

Mmhmm. Mmhmm.

13:29.20

Devin Sarno

And it was supposed to be, I guess they do two town halls a year. One was going to, this one is sort of like wrapping up the year. It's the end of the fiscal season or whatever. And they're going to do a lot of, it's supposed to be celebratory and a little bit of launching the next season, but still.

13:41.10

Yeah. Mmhmm.

13:45.69

Devin Sarno

And this um CEO was had brought me in specifically because they it's not that they weren't capable of speaking on stage or not um super comfortable.

13:57.85

Devin Sarno

They found some stages were more intimidating than others, but it was because they knew that they needed to get up on stage and be celebratory and empowering.

14:02.34

Right. Yes.

14:12.75

Devin Sarno

its event was one going to be two days before the election and the the election outcomes would drastically shape the direction their company would go in one way or the other.

14:26.78

Wow. Right.

14:29.52

Devin Sarno

They also where they have some some relationship with the the government of the state and they were in deals with them and while they were supposed to be celebrating a certain thing going through, it didn't go through as as well as it should have.

14:36.25

Mm-hmm.

14:43.77

Uh, yep.

14:45.70

Devin Sarno

So then there was tension there. And then the biggest factor was in three weeks time, they knew that they were going to have to lay off people.

14:54.68

Oh, wow.

14:55.47

Devin Sarno

And so this CEO was going to have to get up on stage and present to their business, their company, and try to uplift people.

14:58.09

Okay.

15:03.70

but

15:07.56

Devin Sarno

But what they didn't want to do was lie. But of course, you can't get up there and just say all of that.

15:12.33

Yeah. Yeah.

15:12.38

Devin Sarno

You know, you say authentic, whatever. but there Also, there's time and place. You can't get up as the CEO and just say, well, Hey guys, I'm so excited about this year. Just want to give you a heads up. We're going to lay half of you off and, you know, you know, we're going to lay some of you off in a couple of weeks, but I didn't want to lie.

15:23.26

Yeah. Yeah.

15:27.09

Devin Sarno

So it's more common because it's entirely an an inappropriate thing to do.

15:27.92

Right. It's poor form in either direction, really.

15:33.73

Yeah.

15:34.32

Devin Sarno

But they also didn't want to get up and make it sunshine, rainbows and sparkles and have in three weeks, people turn around and say, you.

15:42.45

Right.

15:43.38

Devin Sarno

you hoodwinked us.

15:44.91

Right.

15:44.97

Devin Sarno

And so they had, yeah.

15:45.90

Also for form, right? fit

15:48.75

Devin Sarno

And so they had a lot of anxiety about what should they say? How should they say it? And so we worked together to not only craft the address they were going to give that acknowledged things like the unknown situation of the country but also the unknown situation of the company but like what will they do together to overcome these challenges and how will they meet this and there will be barriers but together you know like finding that right middle ground of not ignoring that there are obstacles coming but not making them

16:25.56

Yes.

16:28.24

Devin Sarno

the rest of the employees sit in like just a state of fear for the rest of the day.

16:31.62

Yeah.

16:32.98

Devin Sarno

And so after we crafted that as authentic as it possibly could without, you know, being too revealing talk, we then worked through how that should sound and how that should come across.

16:46.44

Devin Sarno

um Because just because you mean it doesn't mean that you'll get up and say it exactly the way it should sound. That takes practice.

16:53.04

Right.

16:54.19

Devin Sarno

um and And within that context there was also like a personal story they were using and that was the first time that they will have talked from the stage using their own personal life.

17:03.40

oh

17:04.06

Devin Sarno

Um, and so that was a new challenge for them. So we work together. So the biggest thing that I think is, is finding those moments where you can start to narrow in on what's really bothering you.

17:15.74

Devin Sarno

Because I think for CEOs, you have so much going on.

17:18.44

Yeah.

17:18.55

Devin Sarno

You know, it's easy to just say, oh, it's anxiety about public speaking. But kind of, especially when you just said like, they're finding one on one, they're finding a boardroom full of 10.

17:27.67

Yeah.

17:27.76

Devin Sarno

what What is the audience that you're speaking to and what about that audience is giving you anxiety?

17:34.36

Mm.

17:34.82

Devin Sarno

Because is it that you're speaking to your employees and you needing to come across as a certain type of leader is weighing you down? Or is it that you're speaking to somebody completely outside your organization and the idea that you're not the authority in that space is weighing you down?

17:50.84

Right.

17:51.44

Devin Sarno

Then as you work through those conversations, then you can start to really actually get into improving what's happening for you in that moment.

18:01.55

Devin Sarno

But first you got to figure out first, what's actually giving you anxiety?

18:05.13

Oh, interesting. That is an interesting perspective on it. You really need to go deep into sort of their psyche as well as not just the content of of what they're saying as it is presented, but the content of what they're saying as the content as it's related to themselves.

18:18.74

Devin Sarno

Yeah, I mean it's just really easy to think that we are nervous because it's on stage and we've just called that stage fright and we've just given a big label and I think that's fine, but when you want to overcome it.

18:26.38

Right.

18:28.97

Sure.

18:31.61

Yeah.

18:32.08

Devin Sarno

You got to figure out what you're actually afraid of before you ever.

18:34.47

Right.

18:35.35

Devin Sarno

And usually it's judgment. but judge Being judged as what?

18:37.57

Yeah.

18:39.34

Devin Sarno

What are you afraid to be judged as or for?

18:40.13

Yes. Yeah. yeah

18:42.90

Devin Sarno

And then you can start to similar for that.

18:47.45

Isn't that why, I mean, that's sort of, I think a through line in most people's lives in general, a lot of people's lives certainly is like, how am I going to be judged for dot, da dot, dot, like whatever, you know?

18:54.09

Devin Sarno

Mm-hmm. Exactly.

18:59.51

you put yourself out into the world or you put yourself out of your comfort zone of what you're doing. And I i mean, maybe it's just me and that's, my you know, my assumption is that everybody, but I feel pretty confident in saying like that it's judgment. most of Often there is always a component of like, I'm out of my comfort zone and what is so somebody going to say about that?

19:22.99

whether that's you don't belong here, you don't deserve this, who the hell do you think you are, to you don't know enough, I don't think you know enough, I should have had that job, I should have done, you know, there's a, but it's always, there's a component of that a lot.

19:41.68

Devin Sarno

And I think it's all just another form of imposter syndrome, right? Because

19:44.73

Yes.

19:46.19

Devin Sarno

If you're scared you're being judged, it's usually that you're scared they're right.

19:50.75

Yes, yes.

19:51.62

Devin Sarno

And so you're you're you're not scared, you know, because I heard you say, I should have had that job. And so, yeah, it's like you get up on stage and you're worried that you're being judged because you know other people wanted that job and you're fearful that you're proving them right.

19:56.83

Yes. Well.

20:02.63

Right.

20:05.84

That's right.

20:06.15

Devin Sarno

council

20:06.48

That's right.

20:07.17

Devin Sarno

and so it yeah

20:07.35

That's right.

20:08.30

Devin Sarno

and

20:08.70

Right.

20:08.88

Devin Sarno

Imposter syndrome and stage fright, I think, go really hand in hand.

20:10.28

Let go hand in hand.

20:12.39

Devin Sarno

We're good friends.

20:13.57

Yeah, it's funny. I haven't had this. I haven't had this memory in ages, but I was at a I was it was amazing. I was at the Eugene O'Neill Theater up in Connecticut years ago. Um, I was singing jazz and I was, um, there was a woman there, beautiful singer, like really good. And, um, I don't actually even remember what happened. Um, but she somehow, she was very confident and a great singer, but somewhere along the lines, like.

20:43.83

had a change of a relationship with the other people who were in in the show that also we were each other's audience a lot or a large part of each other's audience a lot. And she had made this very bold decision to sing a song that was outside of her type. And, you know, over that week or whatever had gotten so built up and so, you know, ah and I want to say toxic because I'm not sure that was it, but it it got so overblown in terms of she's going to overcome and their and they're like, who the hell are you? And the relationship between that. And she started singing it and just, and I'd heard her sing it it several times and she was great. And she's a lovely person. I mean, that's the thing, but it just like landed here and she didn't do it the way I know she could and had from that um embellishment that obviously I permeated for whatever reason, but, and yes, and then the like, well,

21:42.37

You know, it was the, I'm going to prove you wrong as motivation, which I don't personally ever, that doesn't work for me.

21:46.99

Devin Sarno

see

21:50.87

Devin Sarno

It doesn't work for me either.

21:52.02

Yeah.

21:52.54

Devin Sarno

No. I know there there are people who like really like can dig down deep and like, that's where they find their like fire and not know my.

21:53.28

and

21:57.14

Yeah.

22:01.08

Yeah.

22:02.49

Devin Sarno

Yeah,

22:02.59

Yeah. Yeah. It's.

22:05.43

Devin Sarno

yeah I think the other thing about that is. within that idea that you have to prove you're wrong, you know, with the jazz singing and stuff, it's this, it becomes about the wrong thing then when you're performing and that's when your body is going to start to betray you in that way because you're not singing from this place of joy and release and instead you were singing from a place emotionally that I can't quite identify but like

22:16.96

yeah yeah

22:33.65

Devin Sarno

it was never going to be the same. And she probably could have sang it great had she never told anyone and just got up there and had

22:39.96

Exactly exactly and I think there is an element of like you're giving it away and once you stop giving it away It's like I I had an act introduced to say don't steal their cry like if you're crying cry But if you're not crying or something emotions not coming if it has to come then we need to discuss what's going on But don't steal their cry because if you suddenly cry Because you've kind of pushed something that has nothing to do with what you're doing.

23:04.89

You've now completely taken Them out of the experience that you've promised them and it was very regulatory and as we're talking about public speaking I feel like that's very much you really can tell especially in a corporate environment um When somebody is telling you like they're reading it or they're telling you what you think you want to hear as you said, you know And it changes the dynamic tremendously

23:08.59

Devin Sarno

and Yeah.

23:29.43

Devin Sarno

Yeah, um I was with some women this week as and we were talking about public speaking. um All of them are very similar, you know, top level in their careers, but their careers are not public speaking.

23:39.05

Mm hmm.

23:41.58

Devin Sarno

And I was discussing with them

23:41.58

Right.

23:44.78

Devin Sarno

some elements that they were going to give up very sure they were each going to give up get up and maybe speak for like three minutes you know not not major keynotes but it really doesn't matter how long you speak and one piece of advice I offered them is it's very similar to a work piece of advice that I think people hear all the time you know the idea this this meeting could be an email yeah think about that with public speaking yes if

24:01.49

Yeah.

24:09.58

Hmm.

24:12.23

Devin Sarno

You are not telling me how to feel using your tone and your language and your body and your face.

24:19.09

huh

24:20.31

Devin Sarno

It could have been an email. And I think that's where most people don't really understand because they'll spend all this time writing this beautiful language. And you know, there are very intelligent people out there and they they craft these really thoughtful things, but then they stand up and they read it and they assume that you will hear the words and you will have the feelings that they had when they wrote it.

24:43.52

Mm-hmm.

24:43.73

Devin Sarno

And the truth is we don't.

24:45.92

Mm-hmm.

24:46.34

Devin Sarno

You may have feelings maybe if you have connections with those words or or thoughts, but

24:51.40

Okay.

24:52.49

Devin Sarno

if he ah a speaking event should be guiding us on how to feel, and then we can decide if we agree or disagree with that. That's all within our own power. We don't have to agree with everything somebody that comes out of somebody's mouth, but that's what a public speaking should offer is another element of understanding.

25:01.70

Yeah.

25:10.96

Devin Sarno

That's why we vocalize it rather than just send an email.

25:14.39

Right. That's very powerful. And actually that's a ah good lead to what I want to ask you because, you know, I have some friends who are super eloquent and intelligent and quite successful in their own right that, um you know, are terrified of speaking.

25:33.47

Devin Sarno

Mm.

25:34.29

And I don't mean publicly speaking on a stage. I mean, they're introverted. And they don't really like to go out and talk to people, but they have to, whether that's because their profession requires it or they're trying to change their profession and go out and frankly talk themselves up to do another profession, which is, you know, what who I deal with a lot are people who are like, you know, I want to, I'm in this, I'm a stay at home mom and now I want to get back in the workforce or I'm, you know, professionally, I'm not happy and I want to change or I'm divorced and now I'm going to do something else.

26:08.33

Um, and they don't really know how to do it because they don't know how to, um, like authentically connect with someone they just meant, sorry, met. Um, and at while, you know, I guess, quote unquote selling.

26:24.13

Devin Sarno

Yeah.

26:24.66

They're not selling, but it's hard to permeate that a lot of times because they don't have your piece, which is that you are there.

26:25.24

Devin Sarno

Right.

26:32.03

So so tell me a little bit about in those kind of case situations, like what what what would be, how would you handle it and advice you'd give them maybe?

26:41.13

Devin Sarno

Sure. um So but anecdotally, I work with um engineers in the expert witness industry. So this is something new I've learned in the past couple of years that expert witnesses, it takes a long time to be an expert witness. You have to spend a lot of time figuring out the cases and figuring out what happens. So there are firms, just like law firms, that host expert witnesses of, for example, in engineering, because it takes a long time to do all that math and all that science to

27:11.25

Right.

27:11.34

Devin Sarno

come up with what happened. um And so I was brought in.

27:14.28

Interesting.

27:15.81

Devin Sarno

I know it's very interesting. I actually love with working with them because I love them so much.

27:19.02

Yeah. Wow.

27:22.13

Devin Sarno

So I work with this one firm, it's called Xplico, and ah they have brought me and and my coworker that I work with on the speech and debate team in, and we work with their engineers because These men and women are so brilliant and they are, I mean, some of them have PhDs, but they have spent their entire lives becoming brilliant at a very, I want to say niche in the idea of like you know this particular form of engineering.

27:51.66

Devin Sarno

Most of them have many other areas of of knowledge and and are very vastly intelligent. But what when you go to these schools and these post-grad programs for engineering, you are with your peers the whole time.

28:03.20

Yeah.

28:05.46

Right.

28:05.58

Devin Sarno

So you are in this space where they only care about content.

28:09.76

Yeah.

28:10.30

Devin Sarno

your professors, your peers, they'll sit there and all they want to hear about is the data. And all they want to hear about is what happened, the impact or whatever.

28:14.63

Right.

28:18.88

Devin Sarno

And you you can use a shorthand and you don't they're not really paying attention to you. And so they're not learning how to sell it because they never had to.

28:26.64

Interesting, right, of course.

28:27.79

Devin Sarno

So what we come in and kind of open up to them is one, I think there's a lot of empowerment there because I think a lot of people forget when they get up in these moments, like you're saying, whether it be a stage or they're in a room and there's imposter syndrome and feeling is you are the expert in the room. You are the ah the authority because I always work on like you need to establish right away credibility, authority and trust. And so most of the time when these people come in, they're already the authority. They have a PhD in this.

29:05.68

Devin Sarno

They're credible, most likely, because they're going to bring a bunch of data and information to the table.

29:10.66

Hmm.

29:12.21

Devin Sarno

So the part that they're missing right now is the trust. And we don't trust innately people who put up big walls. And what's crazy about that is it's backwards in our heads.

29:24.36

Devin Sarno

We oftentimes think we need to like be even more buttoned up and professional. We never can make a mistake. We don't want to want to let them see any part of our humanity or cracks because then they'll think we're not the authority and we're not vulnerable.

29:36.73

Right. Right.

29:38.22

Devin Sarno

And so trust is such a key

29:41.31

Right.

29:41.35

Devin Sarno

Element because it actually is what makes you the most Likely to get the sale to get the buy-in to get people to then respect your accredibility and authority Because the you know throughout life we have tons of people who are in positions of authority that we don't respect And there are tons of people who are probably credible, but we don't respect them and we certainly don't trust them so

30:01.55

right

30:07.52

Right, for sure.

30:10.64

Devin Sarno

start to understand that if you can be yourself and not worry about little flubs, little um's in those situations, they actually will go away.

30:22.76

Mm-hmm.

30:23.10

Devin Sarno

And then my little like tips and tricks are do some research.

30:26.64

Yeah.

30:28.47

Devin Sarno

So like if you are headed into an interview and you know who's interviewing you, kind of scan the company website, but also kind of see if they have social media out there or not or whatever for this purpose.

30:41.39

Mm hmm.

30:42.68

Devin Sarno

It's not that you're stalking them. You're not going to come in and be like, hey, I looked at you on social media.

30:44.25

Oh, of course.

30:47.30

Devin Sarno

It's not that. You're seeing what information this person is comfortable putting out in a public setting.

30:51.53

Oh,

30:56.68

oh interesting.

30:58.95

Devin Sarno

So let's say they put out that they have a dog and they like to go to the mountains for the weekend and they went to this particular college so they're super into that team. You now know they don't think talking about your pet, your alma mater, and where you like to vacation is super out there.

31:21.49

Devin Sarno

they are comfortable with that being a public space so those are topics that you could use as you introduce yourself to them to like start to make a connection and especially if you like I love going to the mountains bring that up it that's why is like just do a little bit of research

31:25.30

Interesting. Yep.

31:38.69

Yeah.

31:42.51

Yeah.

31:43.19

Devin Sarno

um And a lot of times people have like a bio on their company website that has a couple little nuggets.

31:46.75

Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

31:48.04

Devin Sarno

And it's also cute to them if it's their company bio that you took the time to read it.

31:52.70

Yes, for sure.

31:52.99

Devin Sarno

um um bye But in most cases it's more like, okay, that's that it doesn't have to go further than that because that's what they're comfortable with and I'll see more human.

32:02.57

Interesting. That's so, you it's funny that you said that um because a part of what i I'm very, very interested in general is authentic connection.

32:12.83

We were talking about it before we even started recording about both living in LA and like the piece that felt bad was um like having to connect without, and it felt inauthentic, you know?

32:13.30

Devin Sarno

Yeah.

32:22.66

Devin Sarno

It could definitely.

32:26.91

And that felt icky, right? And I, you know, i same same I did a different version.

32:29.22

Devin Sarno

Yeah.

32:32.47

I work with with women who who are trying to do this as well. And I love chat GPT. Like I love chat GPT. I'm a big fan of it to help you do things, not to do it for you, but to help you do things.

32:45.67

And I started, you know, because I also dated a lot. Like I dated half of Manhattan at some point, right? Like I got divorced and just was like, I want to i want to find out what different men are and how they function and everything else. And I was, spy I enjoyed it because I like talking to people and I like asking questions, but not everybody does. So at some point I was like, you know what? I, so I created these three different chat GPT scripts that are based on what you just said, which are based on what little information you have, but I never, you know, like what little information you have, who you are now, like you write who you are now, and then

33:27.46

um You have chat GPT figure out how to link them so that you can find that common ground But what I didn't realize was which I think is brilliant It's like those are the things that people are comfortable with putting out in public and that is such an important piece of it I think because you're right that is the you know, but that's the piece that people are are Then you're actually asking them what they want to talk about

33:40.61

Devin Sarno

Yes. Yeah.

33:54.45

Devin Sarno

And what they're comfortable to, you know, on the women's thrive community that you and I are both a part of, and we're having that seen it in March.

34:00.62

Sure.

34:02.36

Devin Sarno

um What I'll actually be talking about is this idea of how to use your story in business, because I'm, I'm so

34:02.44

Yes.

34:10.25

Devin Sarno

I don't know if sick's the right word. I'm heart sick for a lot of people who haven't had training, but keep hearing, use your story, use your story, use your story. And I agree because what I keep asking is like, let's bring it down to humanity.

34:24.33

Devin Sarno

But no, you're not supposed to walk into a business meeting the first time you meet somebody and like spew your backstory on the table and expect that it it will just be well received.

34:36.19

Oh, wow. Yes. Yes.

34:38.42

Devin Sarno

And so, you know there's It should be, what are we learning from these experiences? What did I gain from these experiences that allows me to be the best business partner for you, the best client for you, the best um you know whatever it is you're trying to sell or be with.

34:57.51

Yes.

34:57.59

Devin Sarno

You should be using it to position you into your power. But just going up and just trauma dumping on the table, isn't positioning you into your power.

35:07.88

Devin Sarno

and And by no means am I saying lie. I'm just saying you, there's no reason you have to go in and just fully overshare these situations.

35:16.44

Yeah.

35:18.40

Devin Sarno

They also don't want you to either because it's a business meeting.

35:23.14

Right. right

35:23.53

Devin Sarno

So it's finding that that window of I'm human.

35:28.53

Right.

35:28.67

Devin Sarno

If you saw me outside of this situation, I wouldn't be a robot. We'd have fun, but to the point.

35:32.63

Right. Right, which goes back to what you said about trust.

35:37.02

Devin Sarno

Yes.

35:37.40

and I want you to talk a little more about it, actually, because is it trust in yourself? Is it trust in the other person? is or And I think I know the answer, but I'm not sure. Is it trust in the um creating the trust between each other?

35:50.43

What what is it? um if Maybe it's all three, probably all three.

35:53.33

Devin Sarno

I think it's all three. I do. I think it's all three. And it's so interesting that you would separate them, because I don't know that I've ever had anybody ask me that before. But I think it's all, I'm going to say yes, it's all three.

36:02.83

OK.

36:03.77

Devin Sarno

So I think first, of course, you have money on the table. So you're coming into a business environment. And so in any interaction, you're talking about either one or both parties going to be committing assets to this relationship.

36:18.65

Devin Sarno

And you always want to trust that those assets are going to be either at least well used or even grow. So trust with money is huge.

36:30.53

yes

36:30.61

Devin Sarno

And so you don't bring that trust in A lot of people are already going to have their guard up even more because money is involved. It's kind of like having your heart involved, right? Like in a romantic situation. You know, you're so much more easy to trust a friend who you're like, yeah, well, I could call you every three months and whatever.

36:40.74

Yeah.

36:47.04

Yeah.

36:47.15

Devin Sarno

um Or somebody you're going to like try to spend your life with or somebody you're going to spend money with.

36:47.24

Yeah.

36:52.13

Devin Sarno

So that's why I think trust can first off just not be there initially. But there's so much misinformation. The World Wide Web is out there. It's got all of this stuff.

37:03.17

Devin Sarno

and so It's hard for us to sometimes know when we're like, I'm not an authority on this.

37:08.56

yeah

37:08.69

Devin Sarno

That's why i I brought you. But I do still want to trust that you are going to lead me in the right direction, that you're not going to hoodwink me or shift to this in some way.

37:20.98

Devin Sarno

And so I think that's from the owner standpoint or or the the business standpoint.

37:21.29

Yeah.

37:25.88

Devin Sarno

They're looking for somebody that they can know is using their credibility and authority in the right way that will be beneficial to them.

37:34.49

Right.

37:34.99

Devin Sarno

I think on the other end, you know if you're coming in and you're the speaker, so to speak, it's not really the job of them to to like do anything necessarily, but if you walk in and you don't trust them and it's a bad feeling and you put out things to try to like break down those walls and you're not getting anything, you should maybe red flag that for yourself a little bit.

37:49.62

Hmm. Yeah.

37:55.30

Yeah. Yep.

37:59.74

Mm-hmm.

38:00.36

Devin Sarno

like It's not always about them.

38:00.72

Mm-hmm.

38:02.71

Devin Sarno

You should be like, okay, well, I did my testers. I put my trust testers out there and they gave me nothing back.

38:09.25

Yeah.

38:10.01

Devin Sarno

Maybe they're not who you want to partner with, but that's that maybe you need a little more time or whatever.

38:11.12

Yep. Mm-hmm. Or maybe, you know, i go I very much go by the, if someone tells you who they are, trust them.

38:22.37

Like, listen.

38:22.45

Devin Sarno

Exactly.

38:23.17

so Someone who tells you who they are, listen.

38:23.25

Devin Sarno

Trust them. and Yeah.

38:25.61

Yeah.

38:26.50

Devin Sarno

And so I think the final piece of it bridging is most situations you, the initial meeting means we will go down this road further.

38:39.22

Devin Sarno

And the idea that, especially depending on what it is in terms of like a business relationship, the idea that you guys will always be copacetic about every opportunity going forward is is probably pretty um naive.

38:53.70

Yes. Yes.

38:53.73

Devin Sarno

you know Even in the best of situations, you'll have a disagreement on some execution point.

39:00.16

Yeah.

39:00.62

Devin Sarno

And if you have worked early on to build a level of trust that as the speaker in this situation, I'm coming with authenticity and credibility, and i and I want you to trust that I have your best interests at heart.

39:15.82

Right.

39:15.92

Devin Sarno

And then these people over here are saying, we see your authenticity, we see your credibility, and we trust you to make the right decisions for us, that when you get to these pressure points, you guys can kind of fall back on that trust and work through it.

39:17.84

Mm hmm.

39:28.95

Devin Sarno

But if that trust is really shaky and not there, it's going to implode. And so I think that's why trust is also a big deal is it's never going to be perfect. You're going to have to work through things and and you have to with trust.

39:42.03

Interesting. It's funny. This really is a revelation around relationships in general. I mean, it's really like, this this is the dynamic of any friendship, romantic relationship, um, mentor student relationship.

39:46.28

Devin Sarno

ah yeah later

39:53.49

Like that, that through line is consistent. I think with every relationship that you develop that is solid ultimately.

40:00.89

Devin Sarno

one hit

40:00.97

Right.

40:02.14

Devin Sarno

And I think a lot of this I learned because of studying like, you know, the human condition, so to speak, in acting.

40:02.23

Yeah.

40:08.75

Yeah.

40:08.86

Devin Sarno

And then as I taught for 12 years, the past 12 years of students, I would just be regurgitating stuff without kind of thinking about it from, from like, working on a character, working on the piece, working on the relationships.

40:21.06

Right.

40:23.65

Yeah.

40:23.92

Devin Sarno

And I started to just remember how the reason for all that work was because you wanted to make real humans on stage or real relationships.

40:31.23

Right. oh

40:33.32

Devin Sarno

um And so you were relying on how humans actually behave and how relationships work.

40:38.51

Yeah.

40:38.83

Devin Sarno

And then I finally just realized like, oh yeah, this all it's all the same.

40:43.66

Yeah.

40:43.73

Devin Sarno

It's all the same.

40:44.75

Isn't that wild? Isn't that wild? and you can i i'll for for people who are not on stage, but just trying to network or trying to get out of their comfort zone or trying to meet a like a mom, trying to meet another mom you know at the parent's association, which has its own kind of just its own pressures and stuff.

40:58.39

Devin Sarno

Gosh, yeah.

41:03.47

These are pretty amazing tips. like and and I don't want to call them tips because I feel like that almost demeans what they are, but they are. like they're they're um values, I guess, or they are they're not not really values.

41:15.80

they're They are fundamentally what you're going for every time you walk into a relationship you were trying to develop, regardless of what you need from it. Wow.

41:25.10

Devin Sarno

And I think tips are a good way to put it because the idea is remembering them in the moment, right?

41:27.66

Yeah.

41:29.74

Devin Sarno

You know, these little things to try to keep in mind because it's not something that you can go book learn and then you test on.

41:31.01

the Yeah.

41:39.04

Devin Sarno

The test is actually walking into a room that's super uncomfortable for you and executing and kind of noting to yourself

41:43.99

Right.

41:47.79

Devin Sarno

what's working, what's not working, and adjusting in the moment, um and then trying again. And the only way, it's like, you know, the idea that like you can't get more patience without like being frustrated, like you can't learn to be more patient, you can't put yourself in situations that make you want to scream.

41:54.02

Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

42:05.69

Devin Sarno

I think, unfortunately, public speaking, whether it's on a stage or in a room with people that you don't know, The only way to get better at it is because you can stand in your room all day long and practice that speech to perfection.

42:20.30

Yep.

42:20.92

Devin Sarno

But if nobody's hearing it, it's going to be totally different once you walk in.

42:24.70

Yeah.

42:25.60

Devin Sarno

So you have to put yourself in that position.

42:25.84

Interesting. Yep. That's right. That's right. Oh, God, thank you. This is really huge.

42:31.22

Devin Sarno

Of course.

42:32.28

It's a huge dynamic of understanding in general. I mean, you could, you know, You could do it in in any relationship at all, but also really like, it's a big feat. I mean, I had stage fright myself and I was a professional, but it was that I had an acting teacher who was like, it's puke, it's puke, you know, like who was really judgmental and it was not the right place.

42:44.87

Devin Sarno

Yeah.

42:51.41

And my gut didn't tell me that. And well, my gut told me something else and it took a long time to get out of it. But like, if you're stuck in that in general, just from, you know, like a small experience,

43:05.73

Um, even it's, it's very hard. So I feel like you're doing, you are doing good work, my friend.

43:10.89

Devin Sarno

Thank you. Yeah. I really want people to pete feel Empowered to use their voice whether it's on a stage in a room, whatever it is the idea that we would already shut down our voice before we even spoke words and and Thought reactions is just really sad to me.

43:19.79

Yeah.

43:27.11

Yeah. Yeah.

43:30.83

Devin Sarno

I've never I mean, I'm not perfect I probably put my foot in my mouth eight million times but I won't let it stop me from

43:30.82

Okay.

43:36.12

Of course.

43:41.23

Devin Sarno

probably putting my foot in my mouth the next time.

43:43.30

Yes.

43:43.56

Devin Sarno

But with the eye that you have to just keep trying.

43:43.99

Yeah.

43:46.90

Devin Sarno

And I think you just said something that so many people don't understand. You said I was a professional performer and I had stage fright. And that is just so true. The amount of actors that I knew that were puking backstage.

44:00.46

Yeah.

44:00.49

Devin Sarno

I had a student that was on the national stage three years in a row and he puked and and nobody else would know.

44:10.41

Yeah.

44:10.48

Devin Sarno

He didn't even know. He literally would always tell me, well, he would be like, oh, whenever we're out traveling, my stomach always hurts.

44:11.73

Yeah. Aw.

44:20.10

Devin Sarno

It's what I'm eating. And it was until years later, I was like, no, it wasn't you goofballs.

44:24.83

Yeah.

44:25.64

Devin Sarno

You were so nervous.

44:25.73

Right. More nervous.

44:26.96

Devin Sarno

You were puking.

44:28.08

Yeah.

44:28.17

Devin Sarno

And they they were like, oh, Yeah, that probably is it.

44:32.30

Yeah.

44:33.16

Devin Sarno

And I was like, yeah, that was it. But I started carrying Tums for them.

44:35.79

You're like, yeah.

44:38.07

Devin Sarno

I was like, I know it's going to happen. But it's because kind of circling back to what we talked about before, the stage fright isn't about the actual stage.

44:46.78

Yeah.

44:47.21

Devin Sarno

It's not about the act of walking out there.

44:50.38

Yeah.

44:50.43

Devin Sarno

It's about what you're so ah scared is going to happen or you're scared is going to mean about you if you get out there and you flub.

44:57.74

Right, right, right, right.

44:58.65

Devin Sarno

Yeah.

44:59.60

who That's awesome. That's awesome. All right. So where do people find you so that they can meet you and maybe get better at this and help help them get better at this?

45:07.04

Devin Sarno

florida Yeah, I can work one on a one, I can work with groups, I've done all of it, any age, you know, I've worked with kids, adults, anything.

45:13.54

oh

45:15.75

Devin Sarno

um I have a company called Parlay Communicators, um and my website is parlaycommunicators dot.com.

45:20.29

how Great.

45:23.89

Devin Sarno

It's also on LinkedIn. You can find that company or you can find my name, Devin Sarno, on just about every social media platform. And, you know, I have, um if you come, you reach out to me on any of those platforms and ask for it, say memory. um I will send you a little tool on how to reduce some anxiety in the moment ah before you even start really working on your public speaking skills, because sometimes it's even hard to start. So I'd be happy to send you a free resource to Lower Anxiety.

45:52.82

Amazing. I will be sending you something with memory. it's As you said, we all get it.

45:56.29

Devin Sarno

Yeah. Yes.

45:58.37

Yeah.

45:58.99

Devin Sarno

I mean, I'm never not like, there are times when I'm even nervous because maybe I haven't prepared as much or the audience means more to me or something.

46:02.39

yeah

46:07.27

Devin Sarno

I, I married my two friends and I was there in Colorado. We call it a celebrant and I think it's the best.

46:12.73

her I love that.

46:13.70

Devin Sarno

I was there celebrating and that was probably the most nervous I had been on stage in years and years and years.

46:19.48

Oh, of course. Yeah, that's a big, that's a big moment.

46:20.66

Devin Sarno

It mattered to me. I didn't care about the audience.

46:21.91

You don't want to mess up.

46:24.10

Devin Sarno

I cared about those two people and that they felt like their wedding was special and reflected them.

46:26.33

Yeah. Yeah.

46:30.64

Yeah.

46:30.91

Devin Sarno

So yeah, it happens.

46:33.01

Interesting. Yeah. getting that For sure. right For sure. Well, thank you so much for coming on here and talking to me. It really was lovely.

46:37.86

Devin Sarno

Thank you for having me. I love chatting with you.

46:41.32

Yeah, me too. And I'm so excited to be participating in the Women's Thrive Summit in in March.

46:47.23

Devin Sarno

Yes, I cannot wait. You should all join us.

46:48.40

Yes.

46:49.43

Devin Sarno

It'll be the most amazing collection of women.

46:53.05

Absolutely, we've gotten an an incredible preview, so, ha ha.

46:55.75

Devin Sarno

Yes.

46:57.32

All right, um I will thank you so much.

46:59.84

Devin Sarno

Thank you.

47:00.61

Okay, bye.