Episode 24: Heather Brockman, SLP and Parenting: When Behavior Is a Signal

Hosts Niki Lampi and Tamara Pogin from the Masonic Children’s Clinic for Communication Disorders interview Heather Brockman, a pediatric SLP at Essentia Health for 22 years who helped establish the Fetal Alcohol Diagnostic Clinic, works with teens at Northwood Children’s Services, and consults with ToivoTek on Speech Sense Pro. Heather shares her own history of having a speech disorder and explains how adults’ expectations shape children’s self-view. She discusses adolescent language, mental health, and reframing “behavior” as communication tied to unmet skills, drawing on DIR/Floortime, regulation strategies, and Ross Greene’s ideas. As a parent of a neurodiverse child, she describes challenges with typical discipline and schooling and the importance of advocacy. She outlines Speech Sense Pro’s development, including speech-to-text transcription that preserves errors and tools to streamline SLP workflow and improve home-program communication.

Transcript

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Hello and welcome to Hear Me Out, the official podcast of the Masonic Children's Clinic for Communication Disorders. This is the place where we dive into all things related to communication disorders and how we can best support the kids and families affected by them. We will be talking with speech language pathologists, clinic staff, families and donors to share stories, insights, and the impact of providing free speech, language and hearing services to children across our community. I'm Niki Lampi speech language pathologist and director of the clinic, And I'm Tamara Pogin, also a speech language pathologist with a focus on working with autistic children and their families. And we are your hosts. We're so glad you're here. hello and welcome to Hear Me Out Today. We are excited to welcome Heather Brockman to the podcast. Heather has been a pediatric speech language pathologist at Essentia Health for 22 years. She has done many great things for the community during this time, including helping to establish the Fetal Alcohol Diagnostic Clinic where she has remained an active team member for more than two decades. Heather also provides services at an Essentia Health satellite clinic located at Northwood Children's Services. In addition, she's a senior product specialist with ToivoTek, contributing clinical expertise to the development of a speech Sense pro, an evidence-informed platform designed to support SLPs in assessment and treatment. Welcome Heather. Welcome Heather. Hello, so glad you're here today. And full disclosure, Heather and I have known each other for about 18 years and we've worked together for I think, like 12 years or something. So yeah. So we're good friends. And Heather, you really do have such a rich work history, so it was hard to fit all of that into the intro. So we have lots to talk about today, but let's start with a little bit about your background. We'd like to ask our SLP guests what brought them to the field. So interesting enough, like I actually was a non-speaking child and so around two years of age, my grandmother was like, this isn't okay. She was a kindergarten teacher and she recognized that even in the eighties that you should. Be speaking by two years of age. And so, my parents were like, no, she's fine. She's a second child, and she'll speak when she wants to speak. She's just not interested in speaking. And my grandma's like. Maybe, but we're gonna figure this out. So she, so did your older brother speak for you a lot? Because we know that sometimes older siblings will do that, but was that the case in your family? Um, no. I think I had a really severe articulation delay and so they just assumed it was because he was speaking for me. But in reality, I think I actually had a pretty significant speech and language delay and so they signed me up for. Speech lessons at Morehead State University, which is where I eventually went to college for speech therapy and within a year, then I started within the school district and I actually went to speech therapy until I was about 12 years of age. And so I still remember working on s and s, sh, and r and t, h and ch. So I'm pretty sure almost all my speech sounds had to be taught to me. And so looking back, I must have had a pretty severe phonological disorder. And so it was your grandma that kind of got you into it, but then you were then exposed to the field of speech language pathology for your whole childhood basically. So your speech pathologist that you worked with through your elementary school, you were very close to, right? I was. She was a very wonderful, compassionate person who was just such a joy to be around. She was so much fun. And really is like a very stable person that I had throughout my childhood. Mm-hmm. So made an impression. So when we think that kids are too young to really remember us or remember what we're doing, I think it's important to know that, when we're working with children, we do have a huge impact on their lives. Mm-hmm. And it is important work in those foundations and relationships are part of their development. Yeah. And, and I think kids must know and understand that we are. They're a person when we are trying to advocate for them. And if we're in their corner, even if we're asking 'em to do hard things, changes happen. Yeah, for sure. And then I think sometimes in the speech pathology world, like when we think about like teachers often they're only there for like a year. And so, like really my speech language pathologist was there for several years. I really think I had her from like three all the way to 12, which is a long time to have a speech pathologist. And, you know, in the school district, you don't get to give breaks either if you're on an IEP. Mm-hmm. I really, and I was in a small town, so she was my one and only speech therapist. That's really cool. Yeah. So the other thing that I really remember from being like in elementary school is just, I still remember because I was on an IEP that often people, like, they put me in the lower reading group and I still remember being really bitter that all my friends were in the upper reading group. And it wasn't that I couldn't read at third level, it was that I was on an IEP. And I still remember reflecting on that and still I'm still kind of angry, right? Because I'm kind of a perfectionist. And I always wanted to be on the top level and I never really understood like why I couldn't be. So that was interesting when I was growing up and reflecting on that. Yeah. And I remember you sharing once that. When you were in one school, they had one perspective of the kids on an IEP and then when you went to a different school, it was a, a different kind of outlook. Can you share that? Yeah. So what I think happened, 'cause it's, it's looking back and you know, like when you're a kid, sometimes perspective is just really off. But I remember I was on an IEP in my first town that I lived in my hometown and. I went to speech until I was 12, and I just remember like, they just kind of had this like outlook on me that I think that they just had thought of me as like maybe an average student or like a lower than average student. And I think that I really reflected that. I didn't try very hard and I didn't feel like, like I could be really a good student. And so then when I transitioned to this other school, like they didn't. View me like that they viewed me as a smart student and because I was viewed as a smart student, I think that I rose to the challenge. And I think that that's just like a really important thing when we work with kids, is to recognize that the way that we treat them can directly impact how. They view themselves. Mm-hmm. That's so profound, and I think, you know what a great example, I mean, you have your master's degree, you've accomplished so much throughout your career and mm-hmm. You know, you, you had an IEP growing up and. And look at you now. Yeah. So yeah, it's, and our kids that we work with, it's they, they are smart and they are good kids and they wanna work hard. They wanna try and it's just finding that way to motivate them so that they believe it too. Mm-hmm. So you said that you went and got your master's degree for Moorhead. I did. Okay. Yeah. Minnesota State University. Moorhead now, yes. But when I graduated the first time with my undergrad, it was Morehead State, and then it changed midway through. Oh, I didn't know that you were there for the transition. I was. And then when you were doing your clinical experiences and stuff like that, is that when you, decided that pediatrics was your way to go? Or did that just happen? You know, that just kind of happened. I come from a family like my grandma who was a kindergarten teacher, and I have three aunts who are also teachers. And so they all love children and I think we kind of naturally just kind of push away from what. We, you know, I'm not like them. I'm gonna do something different. And so I tried adults for a while, maybe about three or four months. And then, Essentia Health had an opening and I, I took that. And you know, to be honest, Nikki knows this about me. I, I gravitate towards the teens. I love people who are in elementary school and teenage, I love young adult. So really the six to 21-year-old range is the. The kids that I really, really enjoy being with. I, I like the occasional two, three, 4-year-old. They're just not. Um I, I really love the challenge is that teenagers bring Well, and I wanna talk a little bit about the work that you do with teenagers, because I think it's very rare to have a provider that's so passionate about that. Age group because it is a difficult age. It's a difficult age to be, and it's a difficult age to work with because there's so much change, so many emotions going on. And on top of that, you work with a lot of children in that range with mental health issues. And I know you're very passionate about that. Can you tell us a little bit more about that and your work at Northwood Children's Home? Yeah, so I, I love adolescent language 'cause it's complex, right? And I love the challenge of, of figuring out how we can best serve children. A lot of the times, by the time they get to Northwood Children's Services, they've just had so many. Experiences that haven't been great. they come in with, just so many behavioral challenges and so a lot of those behavioral challenges stem from some underlying issue that they need to figure out and solve. whether it's anxiety or a learning disability or sensory integration challenges. And so they come in with. With all of these experiences across space and time that haven't been positive. And I love being able to be there and help them figure out how to better communicate. Right. So, I love social pragmatic language, like teaching them the nonverbals of, of language. I love thinking about how they can advocate for themselves though, like, read what happened or occurred and how do we fix that or change that, or how can we ask for it in a way that's going to have a positive impact versus, you know, I always talk about the way that you ask for something can either trigger like. An empathetic response or an angry response. And so when you ask for it in a way that is kind, it usually will occur. Or even if you say Heather, I'm having a really hard day today. I have a home visit this weekend, and I'm just really feeling anxious about that. That's gonna cause an empathetic response from me versus. You know, you come in and you just refuse to do speech work that causes more of an angry response. So how can they, do a body scan, figure out where their emotions are, and then explain that. And that's a really complex process that takes a lot of things to happen. Sure. And, I love helping kids try to figure that out. And then the words that kind of go with that so that they can. Advocate for themselves better so that they're not getting so angry. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, and I think you're so skilled at that, and one thing I've always said about you is, maybe I shouldn't say it this way, but you bring out the weird in people, and I mean that in a, in a good way. In, in that you connect really easily with people. And so whether it's parents or teenagers or little kids, they. They just bond with you really quickly and they share things with you and are very open with you about, where they're at, which I think is, is one reason that you're so skilled in that area. Mm-hmm. I always think, like when I was really new in my career. Like 22 years ago. Right? Yeah. I remember thinking that. I, I don't think I really understood what mental health was. You know, I was like, knew out, but I really did think I knew, but I, I really didn't know. And it wasn't until later in my career that I realized that like, kids don't come out angry, right? They come out, they come out these beautiful creatures it sounds like, you prioritize connecting with people. Yeah. Whether it's your clients or just people on the street or people that you've met and they see that gen, you know, that genuineness, I think. And so, and then what. And then when you have that, positive regard where you're like, I see you, you might be showing me this, but I know underneath there's more that we can connect and, and get to. I think, working with slightly younger kids, here at the clinic we work with, um, you know, usually like. Really young to, to nine years old, that still sometimes some kids come in with some strong behavioral challenges that, and it's like, you're right. Like where's that layer? Where do we get to where we can then help them express themselves in a different way? Right. I just remember this once when this kid was just not being very nice to me and like I took a deep breath and I paused and I said, what's going on? What's wrong? And the child was like. I am moving away and I'm never gonna see you again. Oh, how sad is that? Mm-hmm. Yeah. they have such big feelings and emotions and sometimes we assume on the outside that they're being rude and disrespectful and having these behavioral moments when in reality they're having huge feelings that they have very little ability to describe. Mm-hmm. There's a reason for every behavior there is. Yeah. For sure. And it's taking the time to figure that out, which is hard. We're not always given the time to figure things out. like today I had a discussion with someone about we get, there's a mountain and sometimes we're, we're able to catch the child prior to getting over that mountain, and sometimes we get to the other side of the mountain and then they've flossed, you know, we just have to ride out that storm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So it's, it's seeing those signals leading up to, to that. That mountain, and how can we preemptively help with some sensory strategies, you know? So going into a room, turning on the music. Maybe we need to go on a swing or maybe we just let you have a break for five minutes using the iPad and I remove all the words because my voice is driving you crazy. Right? So you have to think about what can we do. So you're reading that the child is starting to ramp up, what can we do to preemptively. Help change so that they don't end up having those huge behaviors. And I think the older I get, the better I am at reading that. Mm-hmm. You know, and one of the trainings that I did do was the DIR floor time. And I think that that was a really good tool for my toolbox is just how do I look at children and their individual differences and how do I help them build up those individual differences so that, so that we have. A better, therapy session. Sure, yeah. And, describe what DIR it is. What DIR floor time is for people who dunno. So it, it's really, it looks at the whole child. So it's looking at like the OT perspective, the psychology perspective, the PT perspective, the speech perspective. And so you're looking at each of the pieces. So Are they under-regulated or are they overregulated? are they able to hold themselves up or are they kind of flopped over on the ground? So like you're just looking at the whole child and you're figuring out where they're at, and then you try to figure out how to best regulate them based on that. And then we follow their lead, but you're following their lead and you're scaffolding that information, Mm-hmm. But it's starting to. It's starting to be able to read them and mm-hmm. Look at them and observe and interact with them so that you can meet them where they're at. So like you connect at that moment. And what's interesting, I've been some had some DIR floor time training too, especially through the play project. And I think what's so interesting for parents or other professionals. Is to remind them that the child you see on Monday might not be the child you see on Tuesday. Yeah. And so to have to do that work every time and every day to see, because maybe what, what did they experience, the hour before they saw you or like how you said like the different um, and emotions and things that were coming up with that one child who was going through gonna have a big transition. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I always think about The bucket analogy with that, right? So like the person I saw on Monday might have had a full bucket, but by the time I saw them on like Thursday, now they've maybe, had five pink slips come home from school and the. Kids are really loud and they accidentally grab the wrong T-shirt that has itchy all day. And then they didn't get to eat lunch. And so when you see the behavioral outburst, like you're seeing that behavioral outburst, but in over, like their bucket's empty, right? They just don't have the ability to tolerate all of those things. So that's causing that. Mm-hmm. Right? You don't get like that sometimes. So, um, we shouldn't expect children to be able to. Tolerate that. When we as adults have a hard time some days too. Well, and the other thing that I love about the DIR floor time is that I'm a big advocate for working on the foundation. And so what happens a lot of the time with speech and language is parents come in and they want their kids to speak. Mm-hmm. And they want them to say words and they want them to say sentences. But if you're saying sentences without purpose. It's not really communication, right? Like I love building that foundation. And, and the DRR floor time really talks about the opening, the circles of communication and figuring out like they looked at me and that was a, an engagement, that was an opening. That communication of, or that circle of communication. And then I can expand on that and then I can help with those communication moments. And I love that. So maybe the child will be in speech for six months and they haven't. Set a word yet, but they've increased their circles and their openings of circles of communication from zero to 50. And that's amazing. It's amazing when they learn the power of a laugh and then you're sharing that, that that moment together, like it's a magical moment. Right? And they learn the power of true interactions. And that to me is the foundation of communication that actually really needs to be worked on. Not the words themselves. Mm-hmm. The words come, of course. Mm-hmm. Um, but you need that con again, it goes back to connection. You need that connection first. You do. Mm-hmm. Yeah. For sure. so when we talk about behaviors too, I think as a parent it's been really interesting for me to navigate that. And when I think about I have two very different children and so like my daughter, I mean, she was very easy to navigate with, how do I discipline her? Right? So you did something wrong and I'm gonna make you take a time out in the corner. And with my son, that didn't work, right? It just kind of seemed to escalate him. And so I think as a parent it's really hard to figure out how to manage behaviors. So along the course of parenting, my two very different children, at some point I recognized that my son was very much like me trying to fit a triangle into the circle shape sorter. And that's when we talk about NeuroD diversities and Like neurotypical, and we talk about when someone is neurotypical, typically the behavior strategies work, right? Mm-hmm. But with my son, who's more on the neurodiverse spectrum. It didn't work because his brain is just different. And so, so you try these strategies Yeah. That should have worked and maybe worked with your daughter and then Yeah. Found out that, wait a second, this is not going how it's supposed to go. Right. And I really felt like I was prepared for behaviors. I mean, I've worked with behaviors for years and until those moments as a parent when my son was having trouble with, just. Behavior challenges. I didn't really understand that. For some people, you just have to do it differently, right? Mm-hmm. And the neurodiversity movement, I would say. I mean, what do you think, Tamara? About six years, it's been kind of pushed, or was it sooner? Well, what the, the first aha that I kinda have mm-hmm. Is like, yeah. That idea of from 2000, 2005, that was like the transition between we are gonna find a cure for people being different mm-hmm. To then everybody has a different way of being human. And then when, I, and then I definitely think of like that, um, NeuroTribes by, Silberman, was the big aha for me. And that was around 2008. So I think, yeah, I think you're right. But for everyone to start to catch on, like not this little niche, like, oh, that sounds good, but wow. You know, and for like, for different systems like school systems and, and, accommodations being made at the level of the government and at the different levels. That is definitely, like you said, like in the last five, 10 years for sure, where people are starting to take. Listen to autistic voices, listen to neurodiverse voices to heart. Well, and that's been really challenging to navigate. What I was sharing with Nikki is just, I feel like you have all these well. Intentioned people who give you advice. And those well-intentioned people might be a psychologist or a therapist or a school teacher or school administrators where they have this really great advice that fits for a neurotypical person. Mm-hmm. But when you have someone on the neuro, diverse spectrum, it just doesn't work the same. And I have been given a lot of not great advice across the space and time, and. That's hard. It is hard. And, and I know you've, you've feel judged, and that's not, that's not what any professional wants, but Yeah. But they feel like they need to have the answers. And I think that's one thing that I appreciate here, but also working with anyone else is that. The parent knows what's going on, right? Yeah. It's like, who, who's the real expert here? Right? Trust your gut, ask the questions, do your research, right. If something doesn't seem to be working, find out the why. Mm-hmm. Well, and it's really hard to go against the social norms, right? Mm-hmm. So like the social norm tells you, your child has to go to school because that's the social norm. And, and they do have to learn, and they do have to go to school. But sometimes public school just isn't the right setting. And it's really hard to go against The social norm of that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And just be like, no, that's not a good setting for you right now. So maybe you homeschool or maybe you do online schooling, or maybe you do a private school. You know, there's so many options out there. And I think that as a parent, I always just assume my children. Would go to public school. That was something I just never even questioned until I needed to question if it was the right space for my child, Mm-hmm. So, yeah, it's hard. And in your case, you made those modifications and followed that path that your son mm-hmm. Needed to be on and now you know, he's doing really well and in college. Yeah. And yeah, he's in his first year and has straight A's and, and I really do think it's because of the, the path we chose, which was. it wasn't the path that I would've thought I would've chosen. So it wasn't the typical mm-hmm. Go to public school everyday path. Yeah. And that's okay. Mm-hmm. And it was something that, you know, he had asked to not go to public school starting when, actually, it's interesting. When he was in kindergarten, he, he found out within the first couple of weeks, and he's. He's incredibly brilliant. He, he's a genius. Truly. He figured out within the first couple of weeks that if he could make himself throw up, they would let him out of class. And, so after about 10 times of me having to leave work and go pick him up from class, we finally, I was like, I really don't think he's sick. And, about 10 years after that happened, he actually told me he, he admitted that he was making himself. I do that to get outta class. And so he started as soon as he could, kind of trying to advocate for himself that that just wasn't a good spot for him. Like it was just too chaotic and too loud and too, too much. I love how you said that, where, some people might look at it and be like, oh, that's a NA naughty behavior. That's a bad behavior he's making himself. Mm-hmm. You know, throw up. But you said it just perfectly. He's advocating for himself. That's his way of letting. Grownups know that this isn't working for me, I'm not, okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I still remember one time when he was in elementary school, he, almost threw down a smart board. Oof. And that's interesting. Right. And what happened prior to that, because that's of course the behavior that was seen was that. But what happened prior to that is there was a tornado drill. Oh, and he was told by his dad that in Duluth we don't actually have tornadoes. And so the anxiety of why would we be practicing for something that never happens here doesn't even make sense. And so what we see in the outside is this huge behavior, but you don't see the internal turmoil that comes from. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. You're such a good mom. They're so lucky to have you. That was another interesting thing that, um,, like you said, Tamara, about how you feel blamed you do. And at some point I realized that he's doing well because of me. Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. He is who he is. Right. So he's doing well, not because of the bad choices. Like I, I don't know how to phrase that, but it's really hard being a parent. It's hard. Mm-hmm. It's hard not to blame yourself and it's hard. Yeah. I mean, he wouldn't be as successful as he is today if it weren't for you. Yes, he's yes. And however, there was moments where I feel like there was providers that made me feel like he was having these behaviors because of me. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it's hard too, and when you're, you're not sure what to do, and yet you're placed in this. In this position where you need to advocate for your son. Yeah. And so you get better at it because you have to, but then some people look at, then start to look at you. Uh oh. That way too, because of your advocacy. Mm-hmm. Because you've done the research. and so that's another thing where, again, I just feel so blessed to be able to work here, where if a parent comes and and says, can we try this? You know. Nine times outta 10. Yeah, sure. Yeah. You know, like to try different things or to, or to find those, or to find those right level of supports. That's what we always talk about. It's like, what's, when something goes wrong? It's like, what's the right level? What's the level of support that we need? Then it's like we were missing some level of support to make this successful because obviously no one wants a child to, go through an emotional distress pattern or to make a choice where they're running away or doing something in the classroom. And so instead of talking about, like what happened, it was like, hmm, what happened before? Mm-hmm. Right? Or what can happen next time. And I think that's something that. I'm hoping that that cultural shift continues to happen. I, I know it's happening in pockets. Yeah. But, that's, I think that's really what we can mm-hmm. We can really take away from today, I think. And I think the biggest thing for me, and has been a huge shift in me and in terms of my treatment is rather than looking in and thinking about how, the child who's having a behavior, I, I blame them. Right. Like before where now I think about it more like I reflect what did I do or what could have I done to preemptively make it so that this child didn't get so dysregulated? Mm-hmm. You know, and shifting that in my brain, rather than blaming the child. 'cause children don't, they're not behavioral. there's often lots of reasons why a child presents with behaviors on the outside. Mm-hmm. So what can we do to help support that child so that that doesn't occur? Mm-hmm. Six years ago, right before COVID hit, I went to Ross Green. Mm. Lucky. And I love Ross Green. So it's Dr. Ross Green. He's, he wrote the Explosive child and mm-hmm. Many other, he's a psychiatrist. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And he just talks about like behavioral children, are just unlucky signal givers. So we all have signals, and one of my signals is I cry. So when the demands exceed the skillset, we have a signal and. Everyone's signals in a different way. And what happens with behavioral children is that their signals are just undesirable. We don't like it when kids get really upset. But it's a signal that something has happened that they just don't have the skills for yet. And that's the most important key word there is that they don't have the skills for yet. Mm-hmm. And in that moment, that's when I, I just think of that. Staircase analogy. I read this, this. This thing on Facebook about this lady who said, just don't allow the shark music to overtake you. And so what happens a lot of the time, as a parent, you, you see the end of the staircase. And if we just keep focusing on that end of the staircase, we won't get there because we have, it's, it's incremental, right? We have to break it down and we have to work on it step by step by step. And what happens with the shark music is you just fear that It's not gonna be okay. Like you fear what's gonna be at the end of this nce. Like they're never gonna go to college and they're not gonna have a job and you know they're gonna end up in jail. Like you have all these worries and these fears when in reality you just have to focus on today. You just have to focus on today, you have to focus on this week, you have to focus on this semester. Like what do we need to do to get. Get to the next level or the next, the next step. Mm-hmm. And yeah, so I lo I love Ross Green. I love that analogy of like, when someone is having a behavior, it's just, it's just a signal. It's a signal that something has happened that they just don't have the skills for yet. Mm-hmm. That's a good one. Mm-hmm. And the other thing that really stood out to me when I went to his conference is he discusses that at any given time. A person can only really work on three things. And we expect a lot. Mm-hmm. Of little people. Mm-hmm. Like, just think about ourselves. Like I constantly am setting goals for myself, and when I set goals for myself, you really can only focus on, you know, I'm going to drink more water this week and I'm going to work out this week. Right? I'm going to not eat sugar this week. You can really only focus on so much at any given time. And so really thinking about that with these little people is that we're expecting them to do a lot. And sometimes we just have to break it down to the smallest component but another thing is, is that sometimes we see something as small, like teeth brushing. We feel like. That is a goal. They're gonna, or it should be reasonable that that word reasonable, you know, um, it should be a reasonable goal. Yeah. Right. Like that's a normal, normal thing. But like with someone who has sensory challenges or they maybe have OCD or maybe. We don't know. Mm-hmm. You know, we don't know what it is. And so when you break it down, really toothbrushing could be about 20 lagging skills that actually need to be addressed prior to getting them to brush their teeth. Mm-hmm. Maybe they don't have, the strength in their hand. You, you just don't know. Mm-hmm. What, what's going on with it, And so that, that to me was mind blowing. Um, is just thinking about one simple thing like. Toothbrushing toothbrushing or taking a shower. That seems like a very simple thing when you really break it down. It could be like 30 Yeah. Legging skills. Yeah. Heather, we just had Tahirih Bushey on the podcast. Yeah. And, and we just. Definitely thought of her as a mentor. And the things that she told us was always, there's always more things that you can break it down. Mm-hmm. Like you think that this is the lowest you can go and there's still more scaffolding opportunities and the child will tell you how much they need. Because it's like, obviously if you, if you're saying Let's do this, and they're like, uh, and they're stuck. There's more supports we can do. Yeah. And you can see with children with any kinda behavioral challenges that their go-to then is just to have a meltdown because people are expecting them to just write their name, you know? Mm-hmm. When really writing their name might maybe it's, it's the scratching. They can't stand, or maybe they just don't have the hand strength or they can't sit still, or maybe they are perfect, perfect, like perfectionist perfection and they can't write. It th the way that they wanna write it. Yeah. It's not the way they look at, see it in their head. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so we don't know. What we see is the huge behavior. We don't see what all of the stuff, the incremental changes that need to occur prior to that huge behavior. Mm-hmm. So, Heather, thank you for all that input about behaviors. I think as your perspective as a speech therapist and then also as a parent, I think a lot of people are gonna get, a lot of help from that and a lot of comfort from that. Mm-hmm. So, thank you for that. One other thing we wanted to highlight today was you are making an app. Yeah. Yeah. And you just spoke with me. Yes. So, um, so yeah. So you're working with, Toivo Tech and you guys were approached, as the experts, right? Yeah, because, how to make a speech language pathologist, life easier, but yet still being evidence-based. So, yes. Do you wanna talk about either how you're approached or the steps that you've gone through to make this. System come into existence. It's been a two year process, right? Not so far. Um, about a year and a half. Okay. It's actually gone pretty quickly when you think of it that way. Yeah. So yeah, I was contacted initially by the CEO of this tech company and he has a son with autism and he wanted a way to have better connection with the therapist during therapy, and more. More confidence in what to do outside of therapy and like home planning. So more home programming. Yeah. so I started exploring some different options with him. And then over some time I, I asked Heather if she wanted to join in on this, this crazy adventure and, and she said yes. And I was self-reflecting on that, on, on the way in today. It is just like, I love that Ram saw a problem. Mm-hmm. Um, and rather than just like. Allow it to happen. He saw that like he, he brought his son to speech and he just thought, this could be better, this could be easier. And, and then he actively sought out a solution and kudos to him. Right. Like, that's amazing. I feel like as a parent, it's not always easy to stand up against, specialists and we just are like, that's just the way it is. Mm-hmm. But he's like. It could be different. It could be better. Like I would love to know more about my child's speech or how I can help them within the home. And you know, the speech pathologist is only with them for 45 minutes and I'm with them all day and like. I want to empower my child and, and myself and my family, and that's, that's incredible. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's a, yeah, a really wonderful story. so what you guys did he's like, okay, I have the technological knowhow. Yeah. But what do you need? To be able to communicate with parents better, to be able to do things and for convenience for the speech pathologist so that all the information can be in one place. Is that kind of how you were working on it? Yeah. He really didn't tell us much. We really started, we really had to come up with a lot on our own and. It's been great. Yeah. It's, it's been really, it's been a fun journey. Yeah. You know, he, part of his story was he knew his son was saying things that he was missing. Mm-hmm. And he wanted a way to capture that throughout the day when he was at work. So we started by building this speech to text, language transcription and analysis part of the program, which really there's nothing out there for speech disordered children or adults that will accurately transcribe. As they're speaking, you know, everything is set to auto correct. So we had to go to developers and say, no, no, no more auto correct. We, we wanted all the errors in there. And they looked at us like we were crazy, but, but really that's where it started. It was kind of like if you give a most a cookie, where we started with language transcription and then we kept saying, well, and then we're gonna want this, and then we're gonna want this, and then we're gonna want this. So now we have a whole platform that kind of encompasses all of our speech therapy workflow. And honestly, about six months ago, Ram said to us, he's like, what would make your life easier? Mm-hmm. Like, I want to make your life easier and. Every possible way. And I've honestly, that's a very empowering thing. Like I've never once been asked in 22 years how my life could be easier. I've been given lots of ideas and techniques and strategies and you know, different, different systems, but no one's ever said, Heather, how could we make your life easier? And so I went with it. And you know Nikki too, right? So we figured it out. and it's been amazing to see our visions come to life. Mm-hmm. And right now the app is, at least in beta testing, correct? Well be, we're releasing the beta testing form in. Hopefully a week. About a week. Yeah. Okay. So, so by the time that this is, this podcast comes out, I'm pretty sure the the beta testing will be available. Mm-hmm. Yes, for sure. It'll be available and, and we're not, the parent app won't be available probably for another three or four months, but I love the idea of the seamless. Ability to share activities and ideas to families and that they'll be able to request information and then we'll be able to come back with that information. So that's Ram's passion and vision, and I'm excited to share that with families. That'll be a wonderful addition. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I always joke, like they don't really understand how busy it is to be a speech pathologist, so Rahm recognized that, like he wanted more correspondence with the speech pathologist, but what he didn't realize was all of the stuff that kind of goes with that, like the reasons why SLPs. Are rushing or the limitations that we have, the limitations that we have. Mm-hmm. Any, depending from, from, from county to county. Mm-hmm. State to state, country to country. Mm-hmm. Those demands can be put upon you by governments or by the hospitals that you work in, or schools that you, that you work in. And so it becomes somebody who. Who as a speech pathologist, you have this desire. Mm-hmm. But your one hand is tied behind your back by these things that you have to do first. For me, it's just time, you know? And then I just think that like. I'll go to do home programming exercises, so I'll go to print 'em off and then the, the, the printer isn't working or there isn't paper in there and Right. I don't have time to go back. Yeah. So not only do I not have time, and you know, if you have a 3-year-old child, you're not able to log onto a computer during your session Right. And print out that thing. And so it's not about. Not wanting mm-hmm. To provide home programming or ideas. Like, we all love to do that. We're here to help people. Mm-hmm. Like, that's why we chose this field. We just don't have the time in order to make that happen. So I love the idea of pushing a button and, and parents seamlessly being able to receive that information that they need. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh yeah. And, and that's one thing we really wanted to solve is, how can we make sure that SLPs are providing the type of service and the intensity of service and information and connection with parents as we want to, and. Because like you said, you barely have time to go to the bathroom during the day. You know, some days you're just client after client after client and it's really busy. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And we're fortunate at the clinic here, because we are a free clinic, we don't have to worry about the billing requirements and, and restrictions. So we have more freedom here. Been interesting for me to see that difference of a facility where you can provide therapy in the way you want to versus a billing model where you have constraints. Because I, because you have to make money. It's a business. Mm-hmm. I mean, I get that, so that part will never go away. So what can we do in our field to adapt mm-hmm. To make our services better. So you're hoping that, we're all hoping that Speech Sense Pro can be a part of that. Yes. So it's a good goal to have. I'm glad that you ladies took it on and, and that Ram had that idea and, you know, we'll see what comes in the future. And, and I love that even as you're like seeing what technology can do for you and it'll be, um. Things will continue to change. And so that's what's interesting about an app too, where you're like saying like, well, maybe it'll start with this language transcription, which is enough even for some SLPs to be like, oh, you were recently at Asha, and you said somebody was like, give it to me now. And you're like, wait a couple months, it's gonna be ready. It's. So that's really exciting from that perspective. But then to see, like you said, like the, if you give a mouse a cookie analogy that things will start to happen from there. And, and thank you so much for coming and sharing your experiences and your connection. And we just hear about your passions and how empathetic you are towards your caseload and the people that are benefiting from your services. And we just are. Thankful for your 22 years of service and we know that you have a few more years in you, so thank you so much. Thanks so much, Heather. Well thanks for having me. That wraps up this episode of Hear Me Out. Thanks so much for listening. 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