Episode 25: Transformative Speech Therapy: The AAC Approach with Corinne Schmidt

Hosts Niki Lampi and Tamara Pogin interview Masonic Children’s Clinic SLP Corinne Schmidt about the clinic’s AAC consultation and outreach work, including device trials for families, training other SLPs, and lessons from the Closing the Gap conference. Corinne emphasizes that there are no prerequisites for AAC and describes supporting minimally speaking autistic children by accounting for analytic and gestalt language processing. She outlines key considerations for children with medical complexities plus the funding process through trials with possible grants when coverage is limited. She also shares parent-coaching priorities. 

Transcript

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Hello and welcome to Hear Me Out, the official podcast of the Masonic Children's Clinic for Communication Disorders. This is the place where we dive into all things related to communication disorders and how we can best support the kids and families affected by them. We will be talking with speech language pathologists, clinic staff, families and donors to share stories, insights, and the impact of providing free speech, language and hearing services to children across our community. I'm Niki Lampi speech language pathologist and director of the clinic, And I'm Tamara Pogin, also a speech language pathologist with a focus on working with autistic children and their families. And we are your hosts. We're so glad you're here. Hello. Today we have Corinne Schmidt, a speech language pathologist and AAC enthusiast from Masonic Children's Clinic. Corin has been an SLP since 2022. She enjoys supporting children as they develop language skills, whether that is through AAC, which is. Augmentative and alternative communication, traditional language facilitation approaches or strategies to support Gestalt language processors, making meaningful and autonomous communication a goal for all her clients. Hello, Corrine. Hi guys. Hey Corrine. Welcome. So nice to have you here. Yeah, thanks for having me. So you are, um, been hired here at the clinic in 2024. Is that, is that correct? Yes, I think so. I think I just hit a year in the fall in October. Okay. Yeah. Right. It was, well, so it was great to welcome you into our program. You just found a spot right away. Yeah, no, and it feels like you've always been here, you know, like when you say only a year. I'm like, really? It's only been a year. It feels like. I feel so lucky to be at this job. I just, I'm always reminded of like, just what a blessing this place is and it feels so good to be a part of this team too. Oh, good. Glad to here. You like that you're here too. And, and what was your path to get here? Like we all have different paths. Like how did you know that this was the career for you? Speech, language, pathology. Yeah, I, always had an interest in special education. but being an introvert, I'm not really someone who likes to stand in front of a class and teach a bunch of students. And so I was interested in more of a role that would be one-on-one, building those close relationships. And then in my high school, I had a really cool class where, we got to go over to. An education center that was attached to my high school and that center service students that were in ninth through 12th grade and they had autism around the autism spectrum, or had cognitive disabilities. And so I got to go over to that school a couple times a week for a whole semester, and I got to shadow the speech therapist there. and it was so fun. And that was the first time I had seen AAC before too, really used in a classroom. I mean, I had a few kids in my classes growing up that used AAC, um, but that was the first time I had seen, I mean, almost all the students in those classes had some form of AAC, whether that was a device or visuals that they were using. Um, I just totally fell in love with the field. That's cool. And it was a good fit for you and I'm so glad it led you here. And it's funny because the day we interviewed you, Jillian had just been in my office saying the AAC program's really picking up, I really, I can't do this on my own. I need some help. Mm-hmm. And then I think an hour later you came in and I asked kind of what your passion area was and you're like, oh, I really love AAC. I was like, that's perfect. What's so funny too, is I. You know, I've been outta grad school for a handful of years now, but as I was interviewing for jobs over the last few years, that was actually an idea that I pitched to different jobs. Really. I was like, there's nowhere in Duluth that specializes in AAC. It seems like a huge need in our community to have a clinic or a, um, some sort of program that feels like that could be the place you go to, to get your devices and trial devices. And so it's so. Incredible. And I didn't even really know when I got hired that that's what I would be doing. Mm-hmm. It's incredible. That, that's what my role gets to be. I feel just so lucky. And it's almost like I spoke that into the universe. Right. You manifested. I know. It's so cool. So can you explain a little bit how you work with Jillian and what our AAC outreach program is at the clinic? Yes. Yeah. So I have a few hours in my schedule that our dedicated to AAC consultation. And so that looks like consulting with families that are at our clinic and maybe see a different speech therapist at our clinic. And Jillian and I can help. That family trial, different devices maybe, um, set up software differently, find ways that it's gonna make it functional for them to use at home and at school. And then I also have time in my schedule to meet with kids that don't come to our clinic yet and maybe reach out to our clinic and they're interested in trialing devices. And then we also have time to, work with other SLPs in the community too. We've done a few trainings around the Duluth area, which has been really fun to collaborate with other SLPs too. That's great. It's such a great way to help other SLPs learn more about that part of our practice. Mm-hmm. And that's something I was. I never super interested in and so never really good at it. So I love, I would've loved to have someone like you and Jillian be able to mentor me mm-hmm. And really guide me so that when I'm learning about it, I know that I'm learning the right way, the right steps. And part of that is you went to Closing the Gap, which is a yearly conference about AAC You and Jillian went to that last year. Tell us a little bit about that and what, how that supports what you. How you grow the program here. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that, um, conference was so much fun to be a part of and I've always wanted to go to it. So I was so excited to get to go with Jillian this year. It was just a really cool opportunity to have a, a. I mean, it was a three day conference, I think full of courses and courses upon courses on assistive technology and then professionals from all over the country that came in who are also really interested in assistive technology or are new to it and wanna explore it more. So it was fun to just be somewhere where everyone has knowledge or interest and is, and is excited about that area of our field. But yeah. One thing I took away, kind of a specific takeaway that I learned, from one of the classes was how. Sometimes our kids in classes in their school might be learning about, a word that's really specific. Like the example they gave was pollination. They might be learning that in class and how we might not wanna program the word pollination into their. Device because it's not a word that you're gonna use that often. Like I don't say pollination ever. And so the course I took talked about how we can use descriptive teaching to teach those words that maybe are used in the classroom. So maybe we're teaching that child with an AAC device. The words be and move or flower grow and using more of those core words and words that are, Are used more often in conversation and language to describe that new vocabulary term. But maybe we don't need a program, an AAC device to have every single term there is in the world. Right? Because that would be endless. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Would be endless and not functional like. Right. I don't think that child probably needs to say pollination super often. Right. You know? Right. And of course it depends on their, their age and their education level. Absolutely. 'cause maybe as they become more typing on the keyboard, that was something that I found really interesting that, Jillian has. You know, recommended to me, like if the child's interested in typing or to find things, that's still another way to, even if they're kind of babbling. Mm-hmm. You can be, you can show them that cool cause and effect of well we type in balloon and then you're helping the parent and yourself find where balloon is. Yeah. And, but they're also like getting that text to speech like connection and they're like, and then they're like, Ooh, I like it. 'cause I actually just like saying. You know, typing in B, you know, whatever. Absolutely. A, B, C. But you're like, well, what else you can do with it? Yeah, it's fun. Rather than saying, oh, we gotta keep, get rid of the keyboard. 'cause all they're doing is ABCs. Absolutely. Oh no, not at all. Yeah. A lot of the older kids that I've worked at in previous jobs too were at a point where they were able to use core words, make sentences and phrases, and then they started doing some more creative spelling on their keyboard. And some of the goals that I would work on was learning how to write words like literacy, like how can we spell basic? Words with different vowels and things. So, yeah, I love, I love the use of the keyboard. Well, as you know, I have a lot of autistic children on my caseload, and some parents have heard from others. We're just gonna call them others, that their child needs to be ready. For AAC Can you talk about some of those myths or what that means and how you address those concerns? Yes. I've also heard that from others. Our motto here at the clinic, and then I feel like also in our program is there's no prerequisites to AAC c. And so that means that there's no age requirement, there's no cognitive requirement, there's no language requirement. For a child to not benefit from AAC, all kids can benefit from some form of AAC. And so maybe that looks like trialing a high tech device. Maybe that looks like looking at picture cards. Maybe that thing looks like switches. AAC encompasses all assistive and augmentative technology that can support children. As they develop language, and then to those parents specifically when I have them say that to me, I am always under the impression of, give it a whirl and let's see how it goes. And I feel like nine outta 10 times. It unlocks a part of their child that they've never seen before and gives them a new way to communicate some words or things and thoughts that they weren't able to previously. Gosh, that's so powerful. Yeah. That must be really emotional for the families too. Oh my gosh, yes. Yes. And I think it's really cool too that that's what the trial basis is. That's what was so, um. And parted to me was that we don't just like we work on single pictures and then see if they use that, and then three pictures and then, right. And then maybe a voice output that you program, and then we can get to the high tech. You're like, let's bring it all in and see what they gravitate towards and what they're successful with. What, oh, well maybe that's a good idea. Yeah. We presume competence and we start our kids off with. All of it and see what happens. And we can always pare it down to be some more supportive. But the worst case scenario is we limit our kids by assuming they can only use four words and four pictures to communicate all their needs. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Not functional to think in that way. Yeah. And so, What are some challenges or considerations? Maybe you can even talk about a case mm-hmm. About setting up an AAC for, let's say a three-year-old, minimally speaking autistic child. Obviously we're not getting into all the details. There's so much more about mm-hmm. What this child needs. But what's your thought process about going that, if you like, saw that come across your mm-hmm. Your caseload? Yeah. A lot of considerations are needed. We want that AAC. Device to be dynamic. So not set into one way a software is working. We want it to be able to be modified and changed so that it can ebb and flow with how that child is developing language. And when children are minimally speaking, we're not sure. How exactly they might be developing language. So there's two main ways of developing language. There's analytic processing and gestalt language processing. So analytic processing, is when kids start off by learning single words, and then they develop those into phrases and then into sentences. And then gestalt language processing is where our kids learn in whole chunks. They might start by learning the words to an entire book or a song, and then learn how to pair those down into phrases and then into single words. But they might not understand initially how to utilize those single words to form novel utterances. And so when I'm thinking about working with a child that's minimally speaking, I'm probably gonna think that. I wanna support both ways of development. 'cause we're not sure exactly how they might be developing language yet. So I, most softwares for devices are set up to support analytic language processing. So they have a lot of single words. It promotes sentence building. And so that's already set up to support that way. And so then we might also support gestalt language processing by adding in pages that have. Meaningful phrases to that child that might be supportive to them. And for example, I've had my own kids on my caseload that have, that have been presenting in that way. And when I'm not sure exactly what way they might be developing language, I'm just modeling both on there and. My kids are using both, so that's awesome. Yeah. Or it might give you a better idea too, of what, what, what way are they developing language? If maybe you put a bunch of phrases in on one page, what lights them up? Yeah. But also use single words what Yeah. Makes their eyes sparkle all of a sudden. Yeah. What makes sense to them? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, so that's really cool. That kind of leads us to, what we were trying to think about is that there are different ways to support the d different kids. The way they're developing languages is like, so you said that. Mm-hmm. Kids that may end up being gestalt language processors or they, use maybe some delayed echo on their own, like verbally, but we still wanna give them some more access to language. That would be something that you could use a C to support them that way by programming some more meaningful phrases. I like how you say that. Mm-hmm. Um, but then also mod, helping them learn how to break it down. Mm-hmm. By then taking the core word from in their meaningful phrase and just modeling that as you're doing the whole phrase, you might say like, You might do, like, let's go to the park, they say, and so then you always, you might model go. Mm-hmm. Even as you're saying, let's go to the park so that they're like, oh, go, let's go to the table. Let's go to the car. You know? Mm-hmm. And so then they can learn how to like start to break those phrases down and learn those individual phrases so they can have their own autonomous, new, spontaneous language. Mm-hmm. So that's cool. Yeah. And when those kids are in the later stages of language development, they both look the same. They're able to use single words and not. Create novel utterances off of those. And so AAC is already set up to support that. It's just kind of figuring out how can we support 'em in that initial stage when they're still minimally speaking or we're not sure exactly what way they might be best supported. Having both options is kind of my route that I go with. Mm-hmm. Some of the things that I am super excited that the clinic is doing here that I haven't seen as much as in the past is that. Specifically with the work that you and Jillian are doing, is that we are attracting clients that have multiple medical challenges. I think about the podcast that we did with, about, with Leo's parents, and they came with confidence. The first time Jillian saw them and she put this whole. System in front of them and in front of him and just meant he can do this. Let's try this out and or with other clients that she said has these stories about. What are some of the maybe different considerations when a child is a wheelchair user or they have some. Physical disabilities where they are still children, they wanna be on the floor, or they wanna be mm-hmm. Or they have a standard or things like that. What are some of those considerations that you have to think through with parents? Mm-hmm. Yeah. One area that's tricky in AAC and when you're funding a device and mounts for kids that have more medical complexities, an amount is, some, is the, is the. Equipment that makes the AAC stick to where get, be within reach of the child. Mm-hmm. Yep. So it can be attached to a wheelchair so that they can access their device while they're in their wheelchair. Moving around mounts can also be, um, a table mount or floor mount so they can,, use it up when they're at the table eating, you know, one of their meals. Floor mounts can also be, they can be really big and large and so then they can access their device while they're on the couch maybe, or laying down in a medical bed. Um, but yeah, one consideration that you have to think about for those kiddos is these devices and mounts are funded for the next five years, three to five years of their childhood. And so that's a long time. Yeah. It's really tricky. And so when you're working with a 2-year-old, you have to be thinking. What, what am I funding right now? And is that gonna be functional for them when they're a 7-year-old? Right. We have to They grow. Grow with you. Yeah. So we have to think through all the mounts that they might need in that timeframe and make sure that it's gonna be a device that's gonna support them both in their language that they have currently, and, and make sure it's dynamic to allow them to grow with it. But also with considering the size of the device, is it gonna be transportable maybe? Is it. Transportable for them, or maybe it's not transportable for them now at their current size, but maybe it will be as they continue to grow and gain more skills. There's a lot. Yeah. So need some flexibility with each device that you mm-hmm. You get. Mm-hmm. So they get them for five years. Can you talk a little bit about the funding, because these. Are expensive pieces of equipment. Mm-hmm. Um, so tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, yeah. So, there's quite a few different companies and softwares that you can look into. And that's ever changing in our field it seems like. Right. But usually that starts by initiating a trial process. So you'll contact a device rep for whatever company or software that you're looking into and get some trial devices to look at. They can also send trial mounts to try out different things on wheelchairs. Usually you'll work with, I think it's an assistive technology, I guess. I don't know the name of that, but the person that can help with mounting. Okay. Um, through the company can also. Get pictures of wheelchairs to make sure that Mount would fit specifically on there. Get pictures of a medical bed. Figure out what height and size of a table mount might work the best or floor mount. So they're the experts in all of these accessories? Yeah, kind of like a whole team approach. We're getting all of our little pieces in here and there, and speech therapists are the expert in the language realm, so thinking through how that software is set up as kind of our role. But once you work through that trial process, then it just is writing a big old funding report and then they usually that gets submitted off to the child's physician who signs off on that and writes a durable medical equipment. Referral. What's that called? Prescription order? Yeah. Durable medical equipment order or that makes sense. Or, or prescription. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so then that goes to insurance companies or MA and gets typically, is a hundred percent of that covered? Is it part of Partially, yeah. Kind of depending on the insurance. Um, MA typically will fully cover that. Yeah, it really depends. Insurance, insurance what, how much is covered? Yeah. Okay. And then things get complicated too, where it's that that's kind of outta your hands at a point where if a child has multiple insurances mm-hmm. Then you know, it, it has to bounce between the two and they duke it out. I don't know Yes. How that all works, but Right. And there's some programs that we've looked into too that can help, with grants to help fund devices. Like the Orange Theory is one that can mm-hmm. Provide grants to fund communication devices for kids that don't have their, um, insurance fully covering a device. And then also when we talk about like, this AAC c's durable medical equipment, but we, and you think about, things like for people that are in wheelchairs and things like that, but we've also seen a lot of help that in the trial process we talk about, Whether or not a key guard is useful or not. So a key guard is just a simple overlay that goes over a, usually an iPad based device that creates just like a little bit of a raised boundary so that kids can start to learn just like the word boundaries or the ways or, or making that a little more successful. Or maybe, I had a client that, liked to rest their palm mm-hmm. To support. And so you think about an iPad, well, it's a touch-based system, so if you, wherever you touch first is what's gonna get activated. And that can be really frustrating. But then if you have just slightly raised, then if they're trying to use their pointer finger, but they rest on it, it's gonna be more errorless this learning that way. Mm-hmm. So even something similar like that. 30 cent piece of plastic. I mean, they have to, they usually 3D print it. So it's a little bit more than that. But yeah, we almost call those like training wheels for an AAC device. It kind of helps support learning that motor plan of selecting buttons and things like that. And it's, it can be kind of amazing because some of our kids maybe can, maybe initially. It's assumed that they can only access X amount of buttons and then you add a key guard on there, boom. Now they can access the full 60 buttons that we're hoping for or shooting for. Mm-hmm. That's amazing. Yeah. It can help stretch the button so it changes the grid size a little bit. It might change the accuracy because the whole point, and I know that Jillian talked about this in her interview on our podcast, was that you want to establish like, what's the most abundant Smallest button. Yeah, the smallest button possibles that you the most access, the most vocabulary on a page. So that mm-hmm. It, it, um, helps motor planning so that they don't have to look for, they don't have to go like three pages deep to say, I want cookies. Yeah. What's the smallest button they can access with support? So usually with a key guard maybe, or maybe they don't need one and they can already access a really big grid size. Yeah. And so that makes me think of when you talk about presumed competence. So you start out with a child and. You're presuming competence that they can get to a certain level or function at a certain level, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you're gonna have a whole page full of symbols right away, right? Mm-hmm. It might be you figure out the smallest size that they can access and then build from there. Is that right? Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. You'd start at a big grid size usually, and then maybe you might start off by hiding some buttons. So it's just a little bit simpler. But the goal being that you're promoting that motor planning and allowing it to be a dynamic system as they continue to grow mm-hmm. With the device and grow their language skills that they already are learning the motor plan of where those buttons are on the device and what you wanna avoid. Is changing their grid size a bunch of times. You don't wanna start at four buttons and then go to 15 and then go to 20 and move with their language skills in that way. They'll have to relearn it each time. Yeah. 'cause then they can't find where those buttons are anymore. And we want it to be an automatic sequence for them. So maybe start with 15 buttons, but only four symbols. Sure. Hiding them. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And this might be putting you on the spot, so feel free to take some time to think about it, but mm-hmm. You, you and Jillian both said that you do a lot of parent trainings and things like that. So like, what are some of the, the main takeaways that you really want parents to go home with? Like a say you're gonna focus with a parent for for one session or three sessions, and it might not be your client. So it's not like that you're modeling it, you know, constantly. I think a huge part I emphasize with parents is. Simplifying our language that we're avoiding asking our kids questions and making AAC. Um. I don't know what the word would be. Not making it a test. Yes. Not making a to test what color is it? Yes. What is this? What is that? Yeah. Yes. Why don't we talk about that just with reg, you know, regular language development. Don't quiz your kids. Talk about what you're looking at. Not ask them questions that immediately makes kids not wanna interact with the device because then it becomes a test. Like you said, it just becomes them labeling things and answering questions and that's not functional. And so then to piggyback off of that, we. Or I really emphasize modeling without expectations. So just like you do with verbal communication with our kids that are developing verbal communication, you're modeling words in the environment and modeling words from their perspective. And so same thing as just as important with a a C, they have to see someone else use it before they understand that it's a functional tool that they can use in their own environment. So I just encourage parents to model, model, model as much as they can, model those buttons and make it fun to think about how can we make fun of our kiddos, siblings, you know, that would be something maybe they'd want to say, or how can I tease my sister? Yeah. How can they tell mom, go away, or something like that. Make it fun. And give them a. Yeah, a function of their communication that maybe they aren't able to do verbally or with gestures yet. And so you're talking about the communication functions, so not just labeling. Mm-hmm. But, Directing. Um, complaining. Yeah. Yeah. Stinky. Oh my gosh. Those description words are so fun. Yeah. Yeah. And that makes me think of, what do you tell parents when they say. Well, they're just, they're getting stuck on one phrase and I, I wanna take the device away because all they're doing is wanting to talk about this one thing. How do you respond to that? Yeah, I get that a lot. And that's such a tricky one to, to chat about because we really need to view AAC as that child's voice that is part of their communication system. They might be using verbal speech too, and gestures and signs and things like that, but it's also a component of their voice. And so. It's not functional or appropriate for us to take away buttons that they wanna talk about because that's their voice. And we say too, if it's, you know, if a child is saying a word or saying something that we don't like hearing, we would never put tape over their mouth. Mm-hmm. Same thing with AAC. We don't wanna limit their voice to not be able to talk about things they like to talk about. It doesn't mean we can say, we can't say give it a rest or we're, we're talking about this now. I mean, just like you would do a regular case, just try to redirect, can't set boundaries and Yeah. Redirect. Mm-hmm. And redirect and Yep. I hear what you're saying, but nope, this is what we're doing right now. Yeah. And maybe even modeling for them new things on their device. Maybe that's all they know on their device. Maybe they need a, a few more models of different things too. So some of my client's parents, when they've done some trainings with you, they really appreciated. They know this is an expensive device. They're worried about messing it up. So just having someone walk through them, like mm-hmm. This is how you back it up. This is how you, um, copy a button. It never delete a button. You can move it, but don't delete it. These just little things that we do all the, all the time and we can change it. So instead of having them to wait one whole week to come in and be like, Tamara, can you add popsicles to the list? Yes. You know, or where are popsicles? And you're like, well, first you find, you'll find a word and. See if they have it already. And so then they're like, oh yeah, see if they have it already. And those are the things I think they really appreciated. Just kinda like these like. Quick go-to guides. Even if they have access and we've sent into, we've, they've seen us do it, or they can watch a YouTube video. It's just nice to have them have one more thing. Like, yes, you're doing it right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's one of the greatest things of this program is being able to train parents without the child in the room. Like, just sit down with the parents, talk 'em through the whole device, show 'em all the different features, and then give them some encouragement and some tips, so that they have some confidence on how to use that at home. I feel like that is just so beneficial because it can be really hard when the kiddo's in the room and they're zooming around doing their thing or, or they need the device. Or they need the device and they don't want anyone playing with it. Yeah. Why does mom have it now? Absolutely. Yeah, so it's, so a lot, lot of times the kids will be in with childcare. Yes. And then you're with a parent. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's fun to see those parents get more confident after just one sit down chat with them. It's like, oh, I can do this. I can do this at home. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. And then what's been really exciting is just naturally sometimes has happened where there's like one hour where all the kids have an AAC device. This happened this summer and we're like, story time group. It's gonna run group. Yeah. And, and so it's not something that we've done, but that's always something that, you know, as we're looking at developing the, to the program, we've talked about like having some sort of a, a c. Time. Mm-hmm. We're not exactly sure how that's gonna look, but you know. Well that was one takeaway from Closing the Gap too. Jillian and I got really excited after, one. Um, breakout session that was talking about a, a c groups and parent groups and things like that. And, they would have like a monthly night where families could come that had kids that used a, a c and they would teach 'em some nude tips and tricks. Or they would do a night where the parents got to communicate to each other only using a a C. And so they learned from their child's perspective of how hard that is. Yeah, so that sounded really fun to Jillian and Nice. That's brilliant. I know, or, oh, they also did, they would send each family home with a toy, like a balloon or, you know, something kind of cheap bubbles, and then they would show on that child's device, what, what would you model with this toy? Mm-hmm. How could you do this at home? And then have those parents trained and learn in the room, you know, use the device. Model it with the toy and then can bring that skill home with the toy. Very cool. Kinda like our pack program. Yeah, exactly. But AAC c. Yep. Mm-hmm. That's really neat. Maybe in the works, it sounds like. That would be pretty fun. That would be really fun. I know. So do you have anything else AAC wise, that you wanted to add that we didn't let you get on your list? I don't think so. Okay. Because usually how we like to end these things is we like to ask if there's, it's if there's a therapist, especially a pediatric therapist that's in our group, that's in our podcast. Um, what is like a favorite toy or activity that you just love to bring into your sessions and why? Yeah. I feel like the cop out answer is bubbles, so I'm not gonna say that. Yeah. I know Right. I was gonna say, one of my favorite toys is the little windup toys. Oh yeah. I got like. $20 worth of windup toys on Amazon. I think there's probably 30 of them. And I keep 'em in this clear plastic bag. And they're so fun. Kids can request 'em, they can make predictions on what they're gonna do. We can compare and contrast them, we can describe them. And pretty much they always make our kids laugh. I mean, they're funny 'cause they do flips and then they fall off the table or they. Walk on their hands or something funny. So I feel like pretty much any age child loves windup toys, so, and they're very simple. They are fun. Yeah. I love windup toys and no one's said that yet. Oh yes. Perfect. Well thanks Corinne. Yeah, thank you. It was so nice having you here. Yeah, thanks guys. That wraps up this episode of Hear Me Out. Thanks so much for listening. Be sure to subscribe, share the podcast with others, and join us next time as we continue learning from the professionals, parents and donors who make this work possible and celebrate the amazing kids we serve. To learn more about the Masonic Children's Clinic or to support our mission of providing free speech, language and hearing services, visit our website and consider making a donation. Every gift helps us give children the voice they deserve. Visit us at masonic children's clinic.org.