Episode 21: Clutter Is Not a Tidying Problem — It's a Healing Problem

The Psychology of Clutter: How 33 Cubic Meters of Stuff Became a Healing Journey | ft. Sharlene Lindt

In this episode of Happy Healthy Homes, I speak with Sharlene Lindt — business strategist, keynote speaker, and creator of the MindShift process — about the deep connection between clutter, grief, identity, and the nervous system.

Sharlene once lived with 33 cubic meters of possessions across 16 rooms. She was the self-described "queen of the hidden mess." After losing her baby boy in 2011, her home became a physical reflection of everything she hadn't yet processed. Through her journey of grief, alcoholism recovery, and managing OCD and ADHD, she developed the SHiFT framework — a five-step process to clear clutter and reclaim your energy, decisions, and power.

What you'll learn in this episode: 

• Why clutter is "the physical evidence of what we haven't processed" 

• How your home environment directly affects your nervous system and physical health 

• What "attention hooks" are — and why every object in your home occupies brain space 

• The SHiFT process: See the big picture → Hone in on reality → Implement quick wins → Focus on patterns → Take imperfect action 

• The difference between hoarding and "collecting" — and its links to neurodivergence (OCD, ADHD) 

• Why gratitude and self-compassion are the foundations of lasting change 

• How to take imperfect action and start with just one tiny shelf

Whether you're dealing with a cluttered room, a cluttered mind, or a life that feels heavy — this episode will shift how you see your home and yourself.

"You don't clear clutter to tidy your life. You clear clutter to reclaim your energy, your decisions, and your power." — Sharlene Lindt

 And if this episode opened your eyes to why your home keeps you on edge, I would love to guide you deeper:

Etienny Trindade Webinar: Why your home is keeping you on edge

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🔗 Connect with Sharlene: Link Tree 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello beautiful and welcome to Happy Healthy Homes. Let me ask you something. Have you ever looked around your home and felt your body tense before your mind could explain why? The piles, the corners you avoid, the things you keep meaning to deal with, and somehow the weight of it all feels bigger than the objects themselves. Because if the clutter is not just clutter, what if your home has been quietly holding stress, memory, identity, and even protection from your nervous system? Today's conversation is a very powerful one. I'm joining by Brilliant Charlene Lynch, business strategist, keynote speaker, and creator of the mind shift process. What makes this conversation so special is that before becoming the woman who now helps other create clarity and structure, she moved through her own season of emotional overwhelm, where her space became a reflection of everything she wants to she was carrying internally. Today we explore the deep connection between clutter, emotional safety, identity, and the nervous system. If you're new here, I'm Etienne and I help women create homes that support calm, health, and emotional well-being through science-backed design, non-toxic choices, and nature connection. And before we begin, think of one woman in your life whose home feels heavier than it should right now. A mom, a friend, a sister caring too much. Send this episode to her because sometimes one conversation can become the permission she needs to breathe again. Welcome, Charlene.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Thank you so much for being here, Winfo. I'm excited to be here. This is a topic that is so close to my heart. What I do know is clutter is the physical evidence of what we haven't processed. And I am living proof of that, that out the other side of processing, you get to live the life of your dreams. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

I'm so excited when I really resonate with you when you say that. Because most people do not understand how the environment environment really impacted. So can you take me back to the exact moment? You looked around your space and you thought, this is doing something to me.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Okay, so yeah, the reality of it is that it doesn't happen at once. It happens in it happens quietly, it happens slowly, it happens to the point until it is out of control. You don't, you might have a little bit of mess here, a little bit of mess there, but you don't really identify it that way because there's too many other things to deal with. It's not until you have a situation that wakes you up that you have a change of thought about your environment. So I was always very careful about which rooms people were allowed to go in. And I was a bit of a queen of the hid and mess. So what you've hidden behind doors. There were there were rooms in my house people were just not allowed to go into that asked. I just the doors locked. Uh and at that stage I was living in a house that had 16 rooms, so I had a lot of space to hide the stuff. Plus the carport, plus an at plus a garage, which held two cars. Um, well, that's the size of it, but you can imagine the stuff that was in there. And what was under the veranda and what was in the cellar. So it's actually was 33 cubic meters of stuff. So that's a lot of stuff. Yeah. But there was no one particular time it grew on me, and it wasn't until that fateful night in September 2011 when I lost my baby boy. That's when I decided life was going to be different. I didn't know what different looked like. I just knew it didn't look like the piles that I saw bes everywhere. I'm sorry to hear that.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

I could not even imagine. Um and you said you hidden the rooms so you didn't have to deal with it. What would I have seen? What would we have seen on your house? Is there any examples you would like to tell us?

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Yeah, so you wouldn't want to open a cupboard in the rooms you were allowed in, you wouldn't have wanted to open a cupboard, number one. Um, and the rooms that you weren't allowed into, think a goat track. So things were at least waist high in some places chest tight, and you would just struggle to actually just walk one foot in front of the other through those rooms. So yeah, if you've got a messy uh spare room, you're probably doing okay. But if you if it's chest high, even waist high, and you can only put one foot in front of the other, then you know that you have a challenge. So, so formally called a hoarder, but we don't like to call ourselves hoarders. We like to call ourselves collectors. It's just a little bit more polite. And that's how we refer to each other as well. And I have to say that it is a complex disorder. It's not straightforward, it's not just one layer, it's multiple layers. It's not just about being neurospicy, which I am. It's also about not processing the challenges in my life, it's about shoving them down and putting another layer on top of it. So at the same time as uh having the challenge with hoarding, collecting, uh, I was also well and truly an alcoholic. By the time I'd shifted, I was I had been an alcoholic for more than 30 years. So when you layer that neurospicy, so that's neurodivergent, yeah, for the Yes, everyone else. So OCD, ADHD, dyslexic as well. So all the a trifecta, that, alcoholism, and the hoarding, and uh you layer all together and you get a physical body that's not working, a mental body that's not working, you get a physic physicality around you that's not working, and relationships weren't working. Pretty much everything wasn't working.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

Yeah. I really, I'm really glad you touched on that point because I suspect I am near I am neurodivergent. I don't know what I am. That's when these space affects them even more. And with so much happening in your life, I'm sure that that wasn't contributing. It was just making things uh worse for you as well. And where did you feel all of that in your body? Like where you were clenching shallow breath, avoiding certain rules, like because our body is the first one to tell us what's happening, especially when we're dealing with so much. I always felt a lot on my jaw and until I started understanding lots of things I had to process, like you telling your story about trauma, childhood, and accepting. And I think after I discovered I was neurodivergent, it wasn't until I was trying to have children and we had lots of issues, and I did a genetic test, and they showed that I have some genetic issues that I said, wow. So then I started to be more compassion with myself as well. Because sometimes I feel like we're too hard on ourselves. And when we understand what's going on, I don't know if that helped you after you started understanding a few things to become a bit more compassionate. It's like you said, it's so many layers to deal with.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Yes. And and and your question has so many layers as well. So where do we feel it in the body? So out the side, I'm now coming out the other side of the shift process and now standing in my own power. Through those years, I was helping other collectors uh shift as well. And what I noticed, and this is an unfortunate truth, is heart attacks. So what I noticed with many of my clients, they had already had at least one heart attack. Uh and now we're um it's 2026, um, and my challenge started in 2011, is that now um I can see in hindsight, actually clients have passed since then and they died of heart-related disorders. So it definitely if we're looking at the body as a whole, definitely there's something happening with the heart space. But as far as where you can feel it in your body, well, it's heavy everywhere. And it's not just one place. Yes, you get a tightening in the stomach and a tightening in the chest and a tightening in the throat. Yes, and you've also got edema as well. So you've got swelling throughout the body in mysterious places because you just they don't know what it is, but it's definitely, it's definitely not letting go. So at the very, very base of all of this is a place of indecision. So the bottom line for collectors is a decision space. And yes, you have to have a level of awareness and truth and small actions and patterns and choices and all the other layers in between, but it starts with having that level of awareness. And we can, as collectors, stand right in front of something and we might not even be able to see that. And I noticed that when I was helping clients, and I would say, you can see, say, the data projector, right? Like that's that wide, so it's not small, right in front of them, arm's length, still couldn't see it. We we develop a type of blindness, a type of numbness to the stuff. So yeah, it's just absolutely fascinating. It collecting is a complicated issue, but where do we feel it? Hmm, pretty much everywhere. And uh and if it's left unchecked, I've got to say, from what I've seen, it definitely ends up in the heart space.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

Um, what I would like you to explain answer as well, it's because when you're talking about how you develop this numbness and you cannot actually see it, it does look like it the clutter help them help collectors to feel safer. Because I feel like nobody would hold into so many things. It's just that layout of protection, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Yes. And it's also the inability to make a decision. So we don't make a decision, and part of it is it's safer not to make a decision. And also it's values-based as well. We don't have collectors, don't have the same value base as other people. We'll see something broken or otherwise, and we won't know how to value it. So there's so and that's a decision-making process. So, yes, about safety. If I've got more stuff, then I am more. So we put our ego, we put our self-esteem into our stuff, and if we've got more, then we are more. Uh, so it there's that. There is a degree of safety, yes, and it falls down in and around the decision-making process. So the inability to make decisions, and that's based on value as well. So, what I noticed when I started to go through the process of decluttering and moving out the other side is that if I had something and I had a value on that, so one of the processes I get my clients to do is I get them to put it on either eBay or Amazon or Gumtree or one of those places or marketplace. And then what they'll see, yes, it's helping them get rid of things, but it's also helping them see how things are valued, because value proposition is one of the biggest challenges in and around collectors because we value things differently than the rest of the human race does. And once we're this face to face to face with the reality that it's not that valuable, then it helps us shift the way that we see and we value those things. But we have to, we have to remove ourselves from the things. And that's one of the challenges because we it our self-esteem, our self-worth is woven into the you know, the 33 cubic meters of stuff. Yeah?

SPEAKER_01 12:26

Yeah. It's it's deeper, it's much deeper than just the object. And that's what I see. I love watching that is some shows even in Australia that they go through and talk to people and do a bit of a renovation. And it's always attached with a lot of emotions. It's not as easy. And I noticed that as well with some of my clients. Some people have more difficult to detach from objects than others. And they're like, I'm going to need it, I'm going to need it. I in six and and then and that's the conversation I had even in my home sometimes with myself as well. Like, if you didn't use that for more than six months, I don't think you're going to ever use it.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

It's so true. But if we have a look at how long we spend trying to find things, so when we've got more stuff, it takes us longer to find things. Did you know that we spend an average of two and a half days a year, that's all humans, looking for items? That's that's a normal person. Wow. People that people that are near diverse, it's longer. And people that are collectors, it's even longer than that. So it actually can save you time. Um and when what I noticed out the other side is that you feel lighter. So I did notice when I was in that space, is that I was coming from a scarcity mentality. I I felt that if I had more, I was more. And it was a it was not poverty driven, it was a scarcity driven. So even when I was earning good money, it still I still I held on to more stuff because I was able to begin the cycle, which is accumulation. So, in order to be a person who has a lot of clutter around you, you need to be an accumulator as well. So we have all sorts of very interesting behaviors around accumulation. I mean, we'll drive down the road, and I'm laughing, but I shouldn't be because this is not okay. Drive down the road and we'll see people have put rubbish out on the side of the road and we'll stop and we'll pick it up because there's a use for it. Yes? Like, if we're we'll go to garage sales, we'll buy things that we don't need. Like the list is endless to the behaviors, and but in order for it to get to that bad 33 cubic meters of stuff, you need to actually acquire, which is part of the challenge, part of the cycle. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

I'm very curious now because you went through a major process. You're going through so much into your life that must be really difficult for you to realize what you need to do. Mental things going on in your life and emotions. And what did you do first? Was your mindset or you started with your space? Because I always say we need somehow to break this cycle.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

Yeah, so you know, momentum is one of the key aspects of shifting through one of these challenges. And once I became to some point aware from either feedback from other people or just the inability to find things, that I did have a problem, even though I wasn't able to say it out loud, just like I wasn't able to say to everyone I was an alcoholic until well after out the other side, yeah. That's part of the 12 steps, but we won't go there. That's a different conversation for another podcast. Is that for me, it happened that night in September 2011, the night that my son passed, because that night I made a decision that I was going to thrive uh rather than just survive through the process. And um, and so that was a decision. So a decision is to cut off and kill. So the word decision means cut and kill. So that was my very first hardcore decision was to thrive, even though I didn't understand what thriving would look like. Yeah. The very next thing after I'd done that, I was able to lean into gratitude. So I was always doing gratitude, not religiously, not all the time, but spasmodically. But this time I was gonna do it every day. So I grabbed a spiral down and I just started writing out all the things I was grateful for. And what I didn't understand until hindsight was that what I was doing is I was shifting the frequency. I was shifting my frequency to gratitude. Gratitude's up there with love and joy. It's 540 hertz. So that gave me a different level of frequency to turn up at. And so that made all the difference in the world. So now, fresh heart, because I'd forgiven my son for his choice, made the decision, you know, cut off and killed all other choices, and then sat in that space where I'm now in a space of gratitude. I can now go, all right, where am I going to start? So it was a mind shift first, and then the physicality started. So that was one tiny spot at a time. And part of the shift process is to implement quick wins. And that that particular step in the prospect of shift came directly from being in a space to move out of the hoarding, out of the collecting. Yeah. So where did it start? It started on one tiny section of one tiny shelf in one tiny cupboard. And that was it. That was the beginning. And I just, I was kind to myself and I just did one thing at a time. One of the challenges with collectors is we do have movement, but it's moving things from one pile to the other. We moved them around. It's the discarding of them that's the challenge. So what I implemented fairly, fairly quickly after I'd had a couple of goes and things had just moved from one spot to the other, is I just had a couple of boxes and I just used filer boxes because they were dirt cheap, got them from cheapest chips, have them on the ground, and then everything that I picked up, it would either be a keep, and so that would go into a box for keep, or it'd go discard, which is another box, or it would go to goodwill, you know, it would be repurposed. Yeah. Um, and sometimes that box, some things out of there were sold, some things were just given away. But I just separated into those three things. They were easy for me to do. I'd just make a decision. And because I'm neurospicy, everything had to be colored. So the boxes were different colours, the labels were different.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

That's a good thing. Because I think you need to make whatever make you feel good. How to make it fun. That is no right and wrong. And I tell this all the time here, it's not about perfection, it's about one conscious choice at the time. And I always talk about that as well, about not trying to do everything that is not perfect. So it's just one shelf. I call the five minutes rule. Sometimes I have to deal with a draw or something I really want to tackle. And I just say, I'll just do it for five minutes. And then after you shift and you go and do it, sometimes it's really quick to deal with, or sometimes you just get into the momentum and then you just do it.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

Yeah, on every level. The average home has more than 300,000 items in it. So that's just an average home. So like it's even if you're just a normal family, that you've still got more than half a million items in there. That's a lot of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Wow. Half a million. It's a lot when you think about it.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

300,000 items in an average household. So that's a lot of things to remember where are they? And and to have a stasel. So every single thing that we have occupies an attention hook in our brain. So even broken things that aren't fixed, they occupy an attention hook in your brain. You think that you have broken promises, everything occupies an attention hook. So if you've got all of these things, physical things, and then you've got all of these mental things, it's exhausting. It's exhausting just just existing, yeah?

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Yeah, because then you cannot ever think clear, can you? Because what I feel like, and I I'm so uh happy that you touched into that. Because when we're working with the nervous system and our brain, just trying to sit in a space to relax. And if you see all these other things happening, it's unsolved tasks and you cannot relax. So you just need to create a structure into your home in a way that you don't keep your nervous system in alert 24-7.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

You don't clear it to tie to your life, you clear clutter to reclaim your energy, your decisions and your power. So for me, the act of decluttering, for me, the act of moving forward and shifting was about taking back my power. It was about taking back my energy, it was about shifting to a new way of turning up. Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, I I agree 100%.

SPEAKER_01 21:13

Yes, I really like how you say that because it's not about declutter, it's not about having too much. It's just how that is affecting you, not just mentally, but health-wise as well. Because when your brain and your nervous system is not working proper, you are on the fight fight all the time. Unfortunately, your body just starts getting sick as well. So it's just that cycle all the time. And what I talk about here as l a lot as well is that we have so many overstimulating spaces outside our homes because we live in an overstimulating world. You being neurodivergent, I'm sure you feel that much more. Your nervous system's a bit more sensitive to death, like me. So the only place we can control is actually our home.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

Well, yes, and even if you've got a family or even a partner or even a pet, sometimes you can't necessarily even control that. And think if nowadays we live in tiny little boxes right next door to our neighbors, so that you can't even control the noise and the extra stimulus from the people around you. And you certainly can't control road traffic if you live that close to the road. So there's lots of things that are outside of our control. But the things that we can control is our breath. We can control, you know, even some grounding, like standing on the ground, getting our feet in the dirt. We can control hugging a tree, or if you don't have one, hug your neighbor's tree. But there are things that we can control. So for me, it was about starting healthier patterns. For me, it was about making better choices. It was about being kind to myself, not expecting it to all shift in one day, giving myself a timeline for things, and giving myself positive feedback as well.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

Yes. And it's something we don't learn. I loved how you brought gratitude. Unfortunately, depending on your background, you never learn about gratitude. It's something I had to start learning on the past few years because I got into mindset work. And the science behind gratitude, the benefits for the brain, it's incredible. And then we talk about being kind to yourself as well. How important is that? Because we're all going through a difficult time. We're all having things in life that are happening to us as well. So just being a bit more gentle on ourselves. And we tend to be very hard to ourselves all the time.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

Yeah, absolutely. Did you know that cluttered spaces can actually increase your cortisol, so your stress levels? So, especially in women, particularly. So if you're already stressed and then you're in an environment which is cluttered, then it's only just adding fuel to the fire. And uh, and you know, that's possibly the heart space because if you stay in that cortisol, the increased cortisol for any length of time, where it puts the most pressure is your heart. Absolutely. So if I look back to have a look at the whole process, it is the shift process. So mind shift, the future of mindset. So not mindset, mind shift. And it's really five simple steps. I'd love to if if we've got time just to take you through the five steps that got me from that woman who had all of those challenges to the woman that I am today.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

Yeah, that would be great because that's one thing we always bring here is if you could give them one R device and just like one thing they could do, uh, would be amazing.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

Yes. Yeah. Well, really quickly, I'll take you through all five steps of the mind shift process. So it starts with S, and S is to see the big picture. So when you have got too much stuff, can you take a step back? Can you have a look at it? In fact, can you take a picture? Can you have a look at it? Can you see it? For me, I actually had to take photos to see, and uh, I've still got the photos, but I don't even show anybody. And uh, and also, you know, looking at the big picture of what's possible. So for me, I had visions, I created a vision board of living in a beautiful place, and I still have this beautiful vision board. In fact, it's actually still on my phone as my backdrop on my phone of all the things that I wanted uh to have in life. So, and so that was nice, clear open spaces, a clear, clear benches in the kitchen. I can laugh now, but back then I didn't know what that looked like. Nothing on the table except maybe a pot plant and having green everywhere around when I look outside. So, can you see the big picture? Can you look at a picture of what's possible for your life and aim towards that?

SPEAKER_01 26:01

Because what we know is throughout this whole process, did you move houses or you transformed your house you're living on?

SPEAKER_00 26:10

Yeah, so I had to move out of that house. That was the house my son was born in, and it's the house that he died in. So uh it I had to move out because I was just it was too challenging to move forward. I was able to take tiny steps forward, and I did try for for nearly three years, four years even. I took, well, three years and a half. I took tiny steps forward, but then I fell back and tiny steps forward and still back. So it's about proximity. So and because I wasn't in very good patterns of behavior, what I needed to do was move. But I did manage to declutter before I moved, so that when I did move, I got rid of the 33 cubic meters. So when I did move to another house, I was only traveling with the things that I needed. I mean, a few extra things that I needed, you know, that took me a little while after that to declutter. But I was a normal person when I moved. Yes? But that's a that's a great question. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

Um, I understand completely because there'll be so many memories on the house. That's why I I was suspecting you did move from the house.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

Yeah, yeah. Um, especially because he passed away in his bedroom. So it was like anyway, it was very challenging to it was like a shrine. The house was becoming a shrine. Yeah, and that's that wasn't a pl that wasn't now some people can shift through that. I was just not able to shift through that. So the next step in the shift process, so number two is H, and H is to hone in on reality. And what is the reality? So for me, the reality was the layers of stuff, the rooms I couldn't walk into, the drawers that I couldn't open, the cupboards that had to be locked because things would fall out. Underneath the bed, you couldn't put anything more under the bed because the bed was completely filled. Now there's nothing under my bed. And that just you sleep differently when there's not compounded of all of that stuff, all of that pressure underneath your bed. Yeah. So honing in on reality, what's really happening, and you really, this is where you need to get assistance. So this is where you need to reach out to people like yourself to get that level of assistance to move forward because you might not have the skill sets that you need. And this isn't something you can ask ChatGPT. You're going to need compassion, you're going to need guidance, you're literally going to need your hands held to be able to move forward. So that's the second step, honing on reality. The third step, and this is this is my collecting, my hoarding aspect, was I. And I is implement quick wins. So it was just the tiny little wins one after the other, that 1%, that one foot in front of the other, over and over again. That's all that's required. You don't have to go from zero to hero in one go. You can just do tiny, tiny steps. And I'm just an accumulation of tiny, tiny steps.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

Yeah? I really like when you say that because that again is proven by science. Every single person I hear in business, in life, in anything we do, we do need to give our brain dopamine. So if you complete a task, if it's small or not, just give you a high five. Oh yes, yes, I did it. And be proud of yourself. Because if we just keep looking that long road, and sometimes so many steps to get to that final step, you just need to enjoy the process a little bit. And this is a way to help uh ourselves because I'm doing that to myself now as well. Whatever I get done and I feel good about, I just say, yes, well done. I really enjoy you talking about the little wings because this is really important to this process, not just about our homes, but business, life, at work. It's okay to be the crazy ones who keep talking to the computer.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

Yes, I did it. Love it, I love it. Now that leads us to the fourth step, and the fourth step is focus on the patterns because these just weren't my patterns of behavior. My father was a collector, his father was a collector. So this it goes back generations. So these so I grew up in an environment where this stuff was normal. So we've got the patterns of behavior, but I do believe it's sort of DNA as well. But you know, people argue that. But I didn't know my grandfather, but I did know my father. And hello, I ended up to be that way. Now, and it's not just me, my brother was a hoarder as well. So it's not, yes. So it's so I think we can safely say there's a there's a degree of this that is genetic, yeah. So focus on the patterns, whether they're your patterns of behavior, whether they're your family patterns of behavior. And for those of you who are a little bit on the woo side, they might not be in this life pattern of behavior. They could be a past life pattern of behavior, but we're not going to discuss that today. That's another podcast.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

Yes, that's right. Yeah. But I agree. This is really interesting when you bring that. Because um, I'm the opposite. Because my mom, we lived in a really small house. I did grow up on a house with two bedrooms. I shared the room with my two sisters and my grandma. And my mom was always um really organized because we had such a small space. If we got clothes or something, she was always saying, Let's donate something to the kids that doesn't have because we don't have space on your wardrobe. And that makes a lot of sense. So since childhood, my mom was going through this process with us. And you were the opposite. So you lived in a house that for you were normal just to collect things.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Absolutely, absolutely. And the the final step, the the the final step, the final letter in shift is T, and that is take imperfect action. So I'm a recovering perfectionist as well as everything else, and I needed to just take some type of imperfect action. So what I did know is some action is better than nothing. These things to declutter to get better, it needs movement. You can't just do it from a seated position. Yeah. You actually need movement, you need momentum. And so even if it's a step in the wrong direction, even if I was picking up stuff and moving it to another pile, I was actually still doing something. And you can only do that for so long as well. That's another story. But you just need to take that action. So those five steps, see the big picture, hone in on reality, implement quick wins, focus on the patterns, and take massive, imperfect action. Those steps, those steps got me from where I was as a hoarder, 33 cubic meters, also helped me recover from as well as the 12 steps, helped me move the other side of being an alcoholic for more than 30 years. Those five steps helped me manage my OCD, which was at its worst point self-harm. It also helped me manage my ADHD and my OCD, and also helped me get my health and my weight under control. So, like I know those those steps, those five steps are universal and can be laid over the top of any of the challenges that you have. It's not about mindset, it's about mind shift.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

Yes, I completely agree. The days you're not feeling like doing anything, how would you pick up yourself? Because there are days that we are on the go, and there are days that you just feel I'm done. So, how would you with this technique?

SPEAKER_00 33:30

How would you just pick up yourself? Yep. Yeah, and I hear you. So it's about self-compassion on every level. So you need to have a degree of self-compassion, you need to complete the success cycle by rewarding yourself when you do something good, even if it's really little. So layered on top of all of this, I was also had deep depression. So even just getting out of bed sometimes was even a challenge. So when even just getting out of bed, I would celebrate the fact that I got out of bed. Having a shower, I would celebrate the fact having a shower. So just the tiny little things, having a cup of tea, going for a walk outside, calling a friend when I was scared to call someone to ask for help, the little tiny things, that's that was really, that's really what helped me stay okay. And I didn't get it all done at once. And in fact, I didn't do it by myself. I had to call a selection of my best, best, best friends and ask them to come and help me. So that was a big thing because that meant I was really, for people who thought I was sort of normal, my friends, there was really there, they were seeing the inside of what was not okay, which was the my internal collapse was showing outwardly because they're actually seeing my clutter and my junk. Yeah. And uh, and that was happening emotionally as well as obviously the physicality of stuff. So yeah, not not being afraid to ask for help and definitely being kind to yourself and giving yourself time and space. The other thing was setting a time. It I would set a okay, Charlene, you're not having a good day. You can have a not good day till 10 o'clock. Yeah. And then at 10 o'clock, we need to have a cup of tea and we need to rethink the next couple of hours after that. So, like giving myself a timeline, um, or if it was a really, really bad day, because let's face it, grief can just come in waves. Yes. And sometimes you're just out for the count and there's no getting up for the day, and that's okay. But I would say, okay, you know what? Sit in it for today, and then tomorrow's gonna be a new day, but you're gonna wake up at this time tomorrow and move forward. So giving myself those boundaries, those borders that I could lean into, but they were done with compassion.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

I'm really glad you mentioned that because we've been teached since childhood, we're not allowed to feel. And I think this is one of the biggest mistakes. We have to feel. There is no way, because if we don't feel, we do other things to ourselves. And the space is one of them. So I'm really glad you brought that up, that you allowed yourself to feel. Because what you were going through, it must be really, really hard. And I really like that about giving yourself a day or giving yourself two days in a way that you have compassion for yourself and you don't feel guilty about it as well. You just like, I took this day, I'm giving myself time to deal with those feelings, and tomorrow is a new day. I love that. Thank you for that. This is such a good advice. And let's talk a little bit about your clients. How do you even start with their conversation when they are stuck on that loop? Mindset, environment, environment, mindset. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

Okay, um, I think the challenge, so right so now I don't take on collector clients. I haven't done for uh nearly 10 years. Yeah. So most of the clients that I work with now are entrepreneurs like yourself, um, speakers, coaches, those sorts of things. And I work with my skill set differently to create their intellectual property. So that's what I do now as a business. But um, thinking back 10 years ago, uh, how I would start with a client is it all started with a cup of tea and a sit-down because we needed to make sure that we had some safe words too, because they were going to need to make some decisions about things that I needed to know it was not okay to push. And so, you know, we used the three boxes. Yes, uh, we did all of the things that I did to get to move forward, but we also needed to make sure that we were taking care of them. So it always started with a cup of tea, usually a pot of tea, actually. Um, and conversations in and around, you know, what did they really want to do? How I know what was the big scope of work that they wanted to do, and and then and then it's always having a reality check because we were had a tone in on reality because they wanted the entire house done. That was not going to happen. But what we could do is maybe start at the at the entranceway, you know, or we could start at a room that was really impacting the rest of the family. So the kitchen, for instance, yeah?

SPEAKER_01 38:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 38:16

So, and usually the laundries were a a big place of challenge as well. So, where do they want to start? And then discussing those safe words, what's gonna what's gonna be a word that I know that you can repeat that's gonna let me know that I need to stop pushing. And also agreements, too, because we weren't gonna do all the work together. We were gonna do some of the work together, and then they were going to continue. So I used a lot of test board management. We worked together, and then I went away and they had to continue. If they didn't continue, they didn't get their next session. Yeah. So, so that that way I knew that they would get that done eventually. And they were not huge things. Sometimes it was just a draw, sometimes it was just a box. So they weren't big asks, but they were still asking to do things outside of having me in that space to help cheer them on. But great. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

And okay, um, I wanna touch, connect a little bit your history, what you've done, and what you do now, that I think it's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 39:17

So, so when I was working with collectors, absolutely, I was helping them make better decisions, understand the decision process, just checking in with themselves, helping them with their own self-compassion, helping them with their boundaries, helping them with all the things that I went through in the shift process. But today, what I do is mostly work with people that have got some runs on the board, like they've got clients and they're doing really well. The challenge is now they need to look at what does it look like for me to work instead of just one-to-one, what does it look like for me to work to one-to-many? And so what we yeah, so what we notice is that when we work one-to-one, we can we've got that language, we've got that check-in, we can test where they are, we can say something and we can ask them a question to make sure they understood. But the challenge is when you've got more than one person in the room, when everybody speaks, what happens? When I speak, you see images in your mind. When you speak to me, I see images in my mind. Now, if I've got more than one person in the room, I need a constant image. I need an image that everybody's looking at. And so this is what we do. We create visual models that hold that frequency, they hold that pattern of thought, they explain it to the people as you're going through. So that's what I do. I work with people and unpack their genius. And they usually they're brilliant at what they do, but it's really challenging for them to explain it. So then they know that I I'm the right person for them. And we craft their genius into visual frameworks that make it easier for everyone else to understand what it is that they do. So these frameworks become the backbone of them working one to many. And for many of my clients who are already working one to one, you know, one to many, but now they're ready to go to the next level, and that is they need to teach someone else to do the delivery. So now it's all this genius they've got in their mind, they've been doing for quite some time. Now I need someone else to do that delivery.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

Okay. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

Yeah, so that makes all the difference because when you can free yourself up and have other people doing your delivery, it means that you can move on to other things, like being the CEO of your own company and doing the things that you need to do to train your staff and build your business. So yeah, I I basically unpack people's brilliance and create visual frameworks that make it easy for them to explain the genius that they bring. And you know, being a collector has helped me with this process. So one thing that collectors are good at, if you back in the day, mostly, if you asked me where something was, I could mostly find it. Yeah. Probably more. Yeah, mostly, mostly, because we store things visually in our minds. So I know it's in the spare room under the window, probably halfway down. So mostly we know where things are. I know, but you think about it, when you're trying to hold 33 cubic meters of stuff in your mind where everything is, that's mentally exhausting.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

Yeah, yeah, that's right. And it's like you explaining about your bed, I was thinking about how your nervous system was never resting because it was just all night uh finding things to do. And when I go to bed, I don't even like anything on the floors, on the out of the drawers, and really messy. Even like I tell my clients, don't bring the laundry to your bedroom if you're not going to deal with it. Just leave the laundry on the laundry. Because then you can just sleep and relax and recharge. And then the next day you bring the laundry. Something on the beginning, my husband always would bring to our bedroom. And I was like, no, I'm not, I don't have the time now to do that. So let's leave it on the laundry. And then when I can really do the laundry, I'll bring it here.

SPEAKER_00 42:59

Because then it's laundry every day. I look, I'm laughing, but it's so true. And and it's things, patterns of behaviors that give us better boundaries, that help us turn up differently, that are kind to our system because clutter is the physical evidence of what we haven't processed. And if we've got stuff even hanging at the end of the bed, that that's stuff we haven't processed. So you want to be in a space that doesn't need processing when it's time to go to sleep, so you can have a better quality sleep. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 43:26

I'm so grateful for you coming here. And you gave us so many beautiful insights, and I'm sure you helped so many people throughout this process. And now you're helping entrepreneurs with this beautiful um framework. Pretty I love your frameworks. The ones you bring on our networking events and when you're doing Kindle speaking, it's just like, wow, how does she come up with that? That's brilliant. It's just amazing.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

I love it because every time someone speaks, I just see pictures. I've got pictures in my mind just from our conversation today. And I just I love clarity. I feel that we need clarity and you need to clear clutter for clarity. You need to guess clutter for clarity. Yes. So in order to have the clarity that I've got now, I needed to clear the clutter. And so I understand the power that comes with that the clutter being clutterless. It's amazing. You can just live at a different frequency. And are you able to keep it now after so many years? So I'm going to say mostly. So my laundry is pretty good. And my my linen press looks like Instagram. So some places are great. My pantry needs a bit of work. Yeah, but it's still amazing. So there are some areas that still need a bit of a refresh, but nothing that I would outsource to someone else or something that I couldn't overease to tidy up. So for the most part, I am I'd say I'm like a normal person. Yeah? And it's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

Well to be honest with you, everyone's house or have a spot that they need to deal with. I don't think it's that is perfection. It's impossible. Even when you really keep on top of everything, and that's something I say. Because people get old on the pantry and then you just need to keep revisiting. And it's something you have always to deal with. So I am glad you're being kind on yourself because there is no way that the house will be completely uncluttered all the time. And I see that with my baby, she grows so fast. So I'm probably going through clothes every three months and donating clothes. Um so yeah, it's just something we need to keep on top of it.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

Absolutely. It is it's about being human, isn't it? And being kind to ourselves. So I've had uh lots of interviews with different media outlets, and they've chosen to come here to have the interviews, and like that would just never happen to before Charlene. Yeah. I just like that wouldn't even let them in the door. And so so it's a completely different uh existence, yeah. As a there's um a level of pride, but not an arrogant pride, just a pride in in taking care of yourself differently.

SPEAKER_01 46:20

Yes, I'm glad glad to doing that. And we can see when you're right on the room, you will definitely have a really good vibe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:28

So when you don't come, we're like, where is Charlene? Through networking. And I really feel that networking is a great safe place too. It's a clutter-free place where we can bring the best of ourselves and we can have conversations and see where each of us fit. So I'm a huge networking fan.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

Yes, yes, I am too as well. And I love just because being a business owner sometimes is really lonely as well. So it's just good to go there and just chat and talk and have a coffee and things like that. Yeah, it's really good. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. When we listen to a conversation like this, it becomes so clear that what we call clutter is rarely just about things, it's about the invisible load your body is carrying every single day. Unfinished decisions, visual noise, channel, residue, and spaces that never truly let your nervous system switch off. Never let your body relax. And this is exactly why I created my live workshop. Why your home keeps you on edge. The simple home reset your nervous system has been crazy. Inside the webinar, I help you identify the hidden triggers in your own home that might be keeping you in a low grade stress seven. And show you the simple science-based shifts that help your body finally exhale. So if today's episode gave you language for something you've been feeling but couldn't explain, this workshop is your next step. Think of it as the practical reset that helps you move from awareness into starting to do some action. In this workshop, you're going to understand what and why. With simple changes to your home, you can reduce your sensory environment and restore clarity, energy, and calm. The link to join the webinar is on the show notes. And I will truly love to guide you through this process. Because remember, it's not about perfection, it's about one conscious choice at a time.