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Office Hours with SIU System President Dan Mahony
The Office Hours podcast highlights some of what is going on in the world of higher education, including some of the major issues and challenges. We explore some the great work being done on our Southern Illinois University campuses in Carbondale, Edwardsville and Springfield. In each episode, SIU System President Dan Mahony will talk with expert guests to discuss these higher education issues and their experiences addressing them.
Office Hours with SIU System President Dan Mahony
A Fairer Formula: Rethinking Higher Ed Funding | Office Hours Podcast
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As Illinois lawmakers work toward a May 31 budget deadline, conversations surrounding how the state funds public universities have taken on renewed importance. In this episode, A Fairer Formula: Rethinking Higher Ed Funding, SIU System President Dan Mahony discusses with experts about how higher education funding models operate across the nation and the efforts underway at the Capitol to modernize the way Illinois distributes funding to public universities.
Joining the conversation are national higher education funding expert, Denisa Gandara from the University of Texas at Austin and Robin Steans from Advance Illinois. Together, they discuss why many states are rethinking university funding formulas, and what these changes could mean for students, affordability, workforce development and the future of public higher education in Illinois.
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- This is Office Hours
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with SIU System President Dan
Mahony, a monthly podcast
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that explores what's happening in
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and around American Higher Education.
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And now your host SIU System
President Dan Mahony.
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- So thank you for
turning into Office Hours.
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I'm your host, SIU System
President Dan Mahony.
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Public universities have
long relied on state funding
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to support their operations.
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The rationale for the
support has been that society
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and the state specifically
benefits from having an
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educated populace.
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The high levels of state support
had kept costs for students
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and families low and provided more access
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to students from all backgrounds.
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In fact, I often hear from alumni about
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how inexpensive tuition
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and fees were when they were students.
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However, over time, the portion
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of funding coming from the
states has generally declined,
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which has cost for
students to increase
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and the resources to support
those students to decline.
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This occurred because when
state budgets were tight,
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they often looked at higher
education appropriations
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as a top place to reduce costs.
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So whenever the economy was poor,
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and that was particularly
true during the nine,
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2008 financial crisis,
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higher education absorbed
large budget reductions.
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And frankly, they never
recovered to the previous levels.
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Not surprisingly, tuition
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and fees also increased pretty
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dramatically during these times.
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In addition to reduction in
support, most states decided
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to take a closer look at how
they distribute state funding
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among universities
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and started developing
higher education funding
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models in Illinois.
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Over the past 50 plus years,
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we used the base adjusted model
in which all universities go
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up or down by the same
percentage every year.
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Over the last several years,
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I've been participating in the development
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of a new funding model for Illinois
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that would change the way that
fund funding is distributed
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across higher education institutions.
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The proposed adequate
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and equitable public university
funding act advances a new
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evidence-based model designed
to bring greater transparency,
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stability, and fairness to
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how state resources are distributed.
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At its core, the proposal aims
to better align funding with,
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with the students who
are being served in order
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to better understand public
universities in general.
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And the proposed model here in Illinois,
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we've we're grateful to be joined
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by two experts today on
funding in public universities.
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First, we start with Dr.
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Denisa Gandara, a associate
professor in education,
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leadership and policy at the
University of Texas of Austin.
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She has studied funding
models across the nation,
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and that's a big part of her research.
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So Denisa, thank you for joining us today.
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- Thank you for having
me. Happy to be here.
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- So if we could start, could
you provide our audience
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with an overview of general
trends in state funding
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for higher education in recent decades?
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- Sure thing. So I can just start, pick up
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where you left off.
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I'll start at sort of a higher
level in thinking about the
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two primary ways in which
states fund higher education
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institutions, which is both
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through appropriations which
go directly to institutions
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and through student financial aid,
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which support students more directly.
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Of course, both of those sources
help support institutions,
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but they, they're typically
distinct in state budgets.
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I'll focus here on state
appropriation since the focus
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of the podcast is on state funding models
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for higher education.
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And in my view, the best data
on this topic come from the
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state Higher Education Executive Officers
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Association or SHEEO.
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And according to SHEEO, as you
mentioned, president Mahony,
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in recent decades,
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there's been significant
volatility in state funding
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for higher education.
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After the Great Recession, funding
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for higher education really plummeted,
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but it has slowly recovered.
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And according to SHEEO,
in half of the states,
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it exceeds pre-recession levels,
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but for half of the states,
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it still hasn't reached those levels
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that state funding was at in 2008.
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And in recent years,
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we have actually seen consistent
increases in state funding
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for higher education, partly
as the economy has recovered.
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2025 was actually the first
year when funding per student
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decreased for the first time in 12 years.
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So for 12 years consecutively
on average across the states,
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we saw increases in state funding
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for higher education institutions.
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But just in this last
year, we saw the first dip
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a 1% decrease from 2024 levels.
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- Yeah, and it's helpful to talk about
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those two different things.
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And I, and I will say, I
don't know your perspective,
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but I often find talking
with legislators, the support
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that goes directly to students
is far more popular than the
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support that goes to
institutions because taxpayers
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and families see that as well.
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That's helping my student go
to college, not really thinking
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that the money going to the
college is also gonna benefit
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them as well, but so they
focus more on that one.
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So I don't know if you've
seen some of that. Yeah,
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- I I wrote a paper about that.
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Yeah, it's called Great, one
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of the Weakest Budget
Players in the States,
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and it's about how state policy
makers make decisions about
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funding higher education.
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One of our key findings, I wrote the paper
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with two colleagues, Meredith
Billings and Paul Rubin,
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and one of our key
findings is exactly that,
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that there's much more
political support for funding
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that goes directly to students
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and for funding that goes to institutions.
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- Well, I will definitely be
reading that and well, and,
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and I will say one of the other things
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that we should point out to
our audience, again, this is
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where Illinois is different.
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During that 12 year
period, you talked about
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with funding going up, we
actually had a budget impasse
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for a year and a half where
we got no funding from the
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state, which many of our institutions are
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still recovering from.
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So we were kind of an
outlier during that period
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of time when funding was
going up at, at other places
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and places that I was at.
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So I can see, you know,
several potential downsides
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to universities relying
so much on state support.
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And one of those is
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that there's wide variations
in the levels of support
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provided, and it's fluctuates from
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from year to year as well.
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Can you share with the audience
how much variance you've
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seen across states and,
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and what impact that's had on
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institutions in different states?
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- Absolutely. I, so I think
you just gave a really great
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example of that variance
in thinking about Illinois
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and Illinois having a very
different pattern from
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what we observe when we
look at national averages.
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But in fact, there is wide
variance in levels of support.
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And I would say there's variance
both across space and time.
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So across states there's
significant variability in state
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funding for higher education institutions.
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So on one hand you have
states like New Hampshire
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or Vermont that fund higher
education institutions at
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around $4,500 per student.
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And on the other end you
have states like New Mexico
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that's really on the high end with
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around $23,000 per student.
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So there's significant
variability across the states.
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And then as we've been talking
about a little bit already
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over time, there's also
significant volatility and,
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and variability in funding.
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And I'll just e echo what you
mentioned earlier on this idea
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that higher education serves as
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what we call the balance wheel for state.
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So it serves as the balance
wheel of, of state budgets
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as a budget category.
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And that's because it's usually
used to balance the budget
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during economic downturns
because there are no federal
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or constitutional mandates
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that states must fund higher
education the way there are
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for, for example, K 12 or Medicaid.
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And there's some research that suggests
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that Medicaid spending is
actually the single biggest
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contributor to declines in
higher education spending, which,
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- Which - Is a little bit
concerning for what we're,
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what we're about to see
with, with the massive gaps
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that will be left for states
to fill when it comes to,
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to Medicaid funding.
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So this leads to substantial
declines in funding
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for higher ed during economic downturns.
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And it's important to note
too, that at the same time,
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during economic downturns,
enrollments tend to increase.
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So there's even greater or
financial challenges, right,
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for higher education institutions.
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But the flip side of that
is with some exceptions,
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that usually when the economy is healthy,
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when state budgets are
healthy, more specifically,
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that higher education enjoys
a lot of support on average.
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Of course, there are
exceptions, but generally
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speaking, that's what we see.
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So overall, again, significant volatility
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and a lack of stability
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or predictability for higher
education institutions.
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So what does this mean for
institutions and for students?
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And you, you alluded to this
already, president Mahony,
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but when state support drops,
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the costs are shifted
onto students in the form
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of tuition increases.
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And we do have some good
rigorous research on this.
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So there's one causal study by
Doug Weber that suggests that
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for every a thousand dollars
decrease in state funding per
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student, there's roughly a
$300 increase in, in tuition
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and fee pricing.
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So that's like the, what
they call the pass rate.
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So according to SHEEO in 1980,
the student share of revenues
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for public higher ed
institutions was about 20%.
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And in 2025,
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and the most recent data
available, that share
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of higher education revenues
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that comes from students has
nearly doubled from roughly 20%
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to 38.4%.
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So, so we really do see
this shift in costs from,
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from the state onto students.
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So what that means, on average, 38%
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of revenues at public
institutions come from tuition
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and fees now compared to 20% in, in 1980.
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So there's that shift in cost to students,
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but also there are
significant implications
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for student success when
state funding declines.
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And we also have good research on this.
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So research by bound
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and colleagues show that
resources per student explain
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of substantial portion of the changes
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that we've seen in
completion rates over time.
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And there's other research by monez
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and colleagues that shows
very clearly that spending
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for higher education leads
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to increases in both college
enrollment and degree awards.
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So there, there really are
these clear causal connections
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between state spending on higher education
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and actual student outcomes,
not just enrollment,
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but also degrees or other
credentials awarded.
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- Yeah, and, and I will
say it's one of the things
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as I'm always obviously
as a president advocating
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for funding for higher education,
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and I always feel like I'm
asking you for something,
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but I also know that there'll
be the benefits there.
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Right? I I'm not asking you just
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because, you know, I, I want it, it's
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because we think we can
actually do a better job with
247
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that funding and, and I
feel good about making those
248
00:10:31,050 --> 00:10:33,030
asks for that reason.
249
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I will say too, you talked
about the variability on
250
00:10:35,430 --> 00:10:37,110
unpredictability
251
00:10:37,110 --> 00:10:39,360
and in my previous state
when I was a president,
252
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they wanted us to put
together a three year plan.
253
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So I was like, well, can you tell us
254
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what the appropriations will
be for the next three years?
255
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Because without that, I can't really
256
00:10:45,750 --> 00:10:47,850
develop a three year plan.
257
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So we're almost always, we, we try
258
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to do long range planning, but it, a lot
259
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of it ends up being year to year
260
00:10:52,500 --> 00:10:55,080
because we we're missing
one of the key variables
261
00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:56,850
to, to do any of that planning.
262
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- Absolutely.
- You know,
263
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and another way that states vary
264
00:11:02,130 --> 00:11:04,470
and how to distribute money
is not just in the amount,
265
00:11:04,470 --> 00:11:06,030
but in the funding formulas.
266
00:11:06,030 --> 00:11:08,400
And can you discuss some of
the models that exist and,
267
00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:09,840
and maybe the philosophies behind them?
268
00:11:11,340 --> 00:11:13,260
- Sure. So there,
269
00:11:14,460 --> 00:11:16,350
the most extreme cases are those states
270
00:11:16,350 --> 00:11:18,160
that don't have a funding model.
271
00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:20,910
And there are certainly examples of that.
272
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So when states don't have
a funding model, they,
273
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they use a base plus type of approach.
274
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So they just make decisions based on prior
275
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year's funding levels.
276
00:11:31,140 --> 00:11:33,480
So that might be kind of an
across the board increase,
277
00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:37,380
like you mentioned earlier,
or just minor adjustments.
278
00:11:37,380 --> 00:11:39,780
Sometimes it's inflation
related adjustments
279
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or other kinds of
adjustments based on prior
280
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year funding levels.
281
00:11:44,820 --> 00:11:47,280
In other, in other states
they don't even do that.
282
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It's, it's more just based
on political influence
283
00:11:49,530 --> 00:11:51,060
and there's always political influence.
284
00:11:51,060 --> 00:11:53,530
That's what a lot of my research
on higher ed funding has
285
00:11:53,530 --> 00:11:57,370
focused on is the politics
of higher education funding.
286
00:11:57,370 --> 00:12:00,580
But, but those are sort of the, the more
287
00:12:00,580 --> 00:12:01,840
what I call extreme cases,
288
00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,180
but they're not, they're not too uncommon
289
00:12:04,180 --> 00:12:06,280
where there isn't actually a formula
290
00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:07,840
that states use to fund.
291
00:12:08,860 --> 00:12:12,010
There're public higher education
institutions, other states
292
00:12:12,010 --> 00:12:13,150
that do use models
293
00:12:13,150 --> 00:12:17,020
or formulas, some of them tie
their funding to some measure
294
00:12:17,020 --> 00:12:18,490
of enrollment or volume.
295
00:12:18,490 --> 00:12:20,230
So the volume could be contact hours,
296
00:12:20,230 --> 00:12:22,060
it could be credit hours.
297
00:12:22,060 --> 00:12:25,120
So institutions with more
students get more funding
298
00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,190
commensurate with their
size, roughly speaking.
299
00:12:28,330 --> 00:12:31,480
Others which have become more
popular in recent decades tie
300
00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:33,760
funding to outcomes.
301
00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:37,690
So these are predetermined metrics such
302
00:12:37,690 --> 00:12:42,610
as transfer rates, completion
rates, the students
303
00:12:42,610 --> 00:12:45,130
who complete 15 credit
hours, 30 credit hours,
304
00:12:45,130 --> 00:12:47,020
or these kind of progression metrics.
305
00:12:47,020 --> 00:12:49,690
So these funding models
that tie state level funding
306
00:12:49,690 --> 00:12:52,780
to these outcome metrics
have become more popular
307
00:12:52,780 --> 00:12:53,830
in recent decades.
308
00:12:53,830 --> 00:12:57,520
But truly a lot of states use
a combination, a combination
309
00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,910
of base plus enrollment
based and outcomes funding.
310
00:13:00,910 --> 00:13:03,280
And I'll just say here, another source,
311
00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:05,890
some good data on these state
funding models come from a
312
00:13:05,890 --> 00:13:07,300
group called Informed States.
313
00:13:07,300 --> 00:13:08,320
So they do a really good job
314
00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:11,230
of tracking the different
funding models across the states.
315
00:13:12,670 --> 00:13:15,070
There is one, one other
point I think it's important
316
00:13:15,070 --> 00:13:16,540
to make here, because a lot
317
00:13:16,540 --> 00:13:18,640
of times we focus on
the models themselves,
318
00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:20,650
but as I, as I mentioned
earlier, there are
319
00:13:20,650 --> 00:13:22,990
so many different ways in
which states fund higher
320
00:13:22,990 --> 00:13:24,130
education institutions.
321
00:13:24,130 --> 00:13:26,680
I mentioned appropriations
and financial aid,
322
00:13:26,680 --> 00:13:29,440
but there are also these other mechanisms.
323
00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:33,610
So funding for special
projects, earmark, earmarks,
324
00:13:33,610 --> 00:13:35,950
and a lot of times we don't
pay attention to those.
325
00:13:35,950 --> 00:13:38,860
And that's actually where the
in inequities get baked in.
326
00:13:38,860 --> 00:13:40,960
So even when states have funding models
327
00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:42,790
that have been developed thoughtfully,
328
00:13:42,790 --> 00:13:45,610
Inequities can show up in
these other funding methods
329
00:13:45,610 --> 00:13:47,440
outside the formula.
330
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:48,850
And even when there's a funding model,
331
00:13:48,850 --> 00:13:52,150
usually in the process of
negotiating what kind of,
332
00:13:52,150 --> 00:13:53,830
what the model will look like in the end,
333
00:13:53,830 --> 00:13:55,570
there are these carve outs.
334
00:13:55,570 --> 00:13:57,040
So these big chunks of money
335
00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,590
that get pulled out of the model.
336
00:13:59,590 --> 00:14:02,500
And sometimes those
make a lot of sense why,
337
00:14:02,500 --> 00:14:04,150
why they would not be
incorporated in the formula,
338
00:14:04,150 --> 00:14:06,130
for example, for medical schools.
339
00:14:06,130 --> 00:14:07,930
In some cases that can be justified
340
00:14:07,930 --> 00:14:10,030
or for, for veterinary schools.
341
00:14:10,030 --> 00:14:12,640
But other times I think
they warrant attention
342
00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:17,290
because pulling out
these significant sources
343
00:14:17,290 --> 00:14:20,620
of funding can actually help
maintain an inequities even
344
00:14:20,620 --> 00:14:23,320
when you have a really thoughtfully
designed funding model.
345
00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,890
- Okay. That's, that's helpful.
And I, it is interesting.
346
00:14:26,890 --> 00:14:28,810
I think I've been part of,
347
00:14:28,810 --> 00:14:30,520
when I was in Ohio when
they developed their funding
348
00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:32,020
formula, I was a dean there
349
00:14:32,020 --> 00:14:34,510
and so I kind of watched
that process play out,
350
00:14:34,510 --> 00:14:36,520
but I was also in the state
when you talked about the,
351
00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:38,500
there was no model that was South Carolina
352
00:14:38,500 --> 00:14:39,550
when I was a president there.
353
00:14:39,550 --> 00:14:41,650
It's like we just got
a number, had no idea
354
00:14:41,650 --> 00:14:43,390
where it came from, and it was very
355
00:14:43,390 --> 00:14:45,430
political who got more money.
356
00:14:45,430 --> 00:14:49,420
So the, the university that was in the
357
00:14:49,420 --> 00:14:52,190
who the most powerful legislator
the state lived in their
358
00:14:52,190 --> 00:14:54,320
district always got the most money.
359
00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,050
And so there was clearly a
lot of politics with that one.
360
00:14:57,050 --> 00:14:59,420
- Mm.
- Is there anything you would suggest
361
00:14:59,420 --> 00:15:01,970
or you think are kind of better
models or better approaches?
362
00:15:01,970 --> 00:15:02,970
Mm,
363
00:15:05,030 --> 00:15:07,675
- So I, I would point to
my state actually Texas.
364
00:15:07,675 --> 00:15:12,080
Okay. And, and I, my state
gets a lot of attention for,
365
00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,960
for a lot of bad things
that we're doing, a lot
366
00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:16,430
of the ways in which
we're actually hurting
367
00:15:16,430 --> 00:15:17,840
higher education.
368
00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:19,010
But, but I,
369
00:15:19,010 --> 00:15:21,560
I think Texas is also actually
doing some things, right?
370
00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,860
And in particular, I'm
thinking of a funding model
371
00:15:24,860 --> 00:15:27,770
that was adopted in 2023
372
00:15:27,770 --> 00:15:30,170
for community colleges specifically.
373
00:15:30,170 --> 00:15:32,300
So it's an outcomes based funding model
374
00:15:32,300 --> 00:15:34,520
for the public two year institutions.
375
00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:36,680
The state is currently considering
an outcomes based funding
376
00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:40,250
model for four years, but
currently it's only for two year
377
00:15:40,250 --> 00:15:41,660
for the public two year colleges,
378
00:15:41,660 --> 00:15:43,280
which are our community colleges.
379
00:15:44,210 --> 00:15:46,580
And I, it's really thoughtfully designed.
380
00:15:46,580 --> 00:15:49,070
It was, it was the product of a commission
381
00:15:49,070 --> 00:15:51,950
that brought together some,
some really smart people
382
00:15:51,950 --> 00:15:56,480
and they designed a formula
that incorporated both adequacy
383
00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,190
and equity based components.
384
00:15:58,190 --> 00:16:01,790
And I can say a little
bit more about that and,
385
00:16:01,790 --> 00:16:03,830
and I, something that I think is,
386
00:16:03,830 --> 00:16:07,250
is somewhat unique in
the state is that a lot
387
00:16:07,250 --> 00:16:08,900
of times there's a commission that
388
00:16:08,900 --> 00:16:10,520
that develops funding models,
389
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,380
but then the state doesn't
actually take up the
390
00:16:12,380 --> 00:16:15,020
recommendations or they
significantly modify them.
391
00:16:15,950 --> 00:16:18,140
I, I just completed a policy scan of
392
00:16:18,140 --> 00:16:20,960
how states fund community colleges and,
393
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,300
and we found just so many discrepancies
394
00:16:23,300 --> 00:16:24,440
between what's in the law
395
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:26,600
and then what actually gets
implemented in practice.
396
00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:28,700
And, and I think there's
even another layer to that
397
00:16:28,700 --> 00:16:30,680
where there's the commission,
then there's the law,
398
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:32,600
then there's the actual
funding distribution.
399
00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:34,610
So there can be a gap
between those three phases.
400
00:16:34,610 --> 00:16:37,670
But in Texas so far
there's been alignment with
401
00:16:37,670 --> 00:16:38,900
what the commission recommended,
402
00:16:38,900 --> 00:16:41,450
what the state put into
law, which is very close
403
00:16:41,450 --> 00:16:42,800
to the commission's recommendation,
404
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,950
and then what they're
actually doing in, in terms
405
00:16:45,950 --> 00:16:47,330
of distributing funds based on
406
00:16:47,330 --> 00:16:48,440
the model that was recommended.
407
00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:52,490
And there are a few features I
think, that make Texas unique
408
00:16:52,490 --> 00:16:56,090
that, and not unique in the
sense that no one has done this
409
00:16:56,090 --> 00:16:59,060
before, but I just think
together they, they,
410
00:16:59,060 --> 00:17:00,140
they make a lot of sense and,
411
00:17:00,140 --> 00:17:05,030
and they, it it is just very,
very thoughtful in my view.
412
00:17:05,030 --> 00:17:07,520
So first it, the funding model here
413
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:11,540
for community colleges adds
weights to focus populations,
414
00:17:11,540 --> 00:17:14,120
but those weights are
based on cost studies.
415
00:17:14,120 --> 00:17:18,320
So they contracted with
some researchers and they,
416
00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:20,360
and they try to quantify
417
00:17:20,360 --> 00:17:22,250
how much additional
funding would be needed
418
00:17:22,250 --> 00:17:25,280
for certain populations to
achieve certain desired outcomes.
419
00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:27,380
So that's sort of the adequacy based piece
420
00:17:27,380 --> 00:17:29,600
that's incorporated in the model here.
421
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,320
And the focus populations
here in Texas are economically
422
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,440
disadvantaged students,
academically disadvantaged students
423
00:17:37,820 --> 00:17:39,980
and student and adult learners.
424
00:17:39,980 --> 00:17:44,450
Those are the three groups. The
formula here also has a type
425
00:17:44,450 --> 00:17:48,440
of equalization component
similar to K 12 equalization aid.
426
00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,090
So here, under this new model,
427
00:17:51,090 --> 00:17:54,990
community colleges get extra
funding if their local tax
428
00:17:54,990 --> 00:17:58,050
and tuition rev fee revenue is less than
429
00:17:58,050 --> 00:17:59,100
what the college needs for
430
00:17:59,100 --> 00:18:01,110
what they call basic
instruction and operation.
431
00:18:01,110 --> 00:18:04,650
So what it does is it takes
into account the various sources
432
00:18:04,650 --> 00:18:06,720
of revenue that colleges have access to.
433
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,540
So it acknowledges that
some colleges have access
434
00:18:09,540 --> 00:18:12,420
to more revenue than others
and it, it accounts for that
435
00:18:12,420 --> 00:18:15,900
and makes up for that gap that
remains in college's ability
436
00:18:15,900 --> 00:18:17,940
to raise revenue because
they're community colleges,
437
00:18:17,940 --> 00:18:20,130
in this case they're
looking at local tax revenue
438
00:18:20,130 --> 00:18:22,110
and tuition and fee revenue.
439
00:18:22,110 --> 00:18:23,640
But in the four year sector, there's also
440
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:25,830
so much variability in the revenue sources
441
00:18:25,830 --> 00:18:27,720
that institutions have access to.
442
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:28,770
And I think something that,
443
00:18:28,770 --> 00:18:31,110
that is really nice about
Texas is that they account for
444
00:18:31,110 --> 00:18:32,970
that in their state funding model
445
00:18:34,020 --> 00:18:36,240
and they also include an
adjustment for smaller colleges
446
00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:38,070
to account for dis economies of scale.
447
00:18:38,070 --> 00:18:40,530
So just acknowledging that
smaller colleges also have those
448
00:18:40,530 --> 00:18:43,410
fixed costs regardless of
their enrollment levels.
449
00:18:44,610 --> 00:18:47,010
- Yeah. A few things I'll
pick up on what you said.
450
00:18:47,010 --> 00:18:50,310
I think it, if I'm hearing you
correctly, some of the things
451
00:18:50,310 --> 00:18:52,290
that you think went well with
Texas is you brought together
452
00:18:52,290 --> 00:18:53,670
a group of experts.
453
00:18:53,670 --> 00:18:57,390
They developed a formula
that had some good concepts
454
00:18:57,390 --> 00:18:59,760
behind it and good values behind it.
455
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:02,340
And then they actually
implemented what they recommended
456
00:19:02,340 --> 00:19:04,050
as opposed to ignoring those experts,
457
00:19:04,050 --> 00:19:05,370
which I think is, is interesting.
458
00:19:05,370 --> 00:19:09,390
I will say Ohio, we got to
the point of implementation
459
00:19:09,390 --> 00:19:11,580
and then it, one university wasn't happy
460
00:19:11,580 --> 00:19:13,230
with their distribution,
so we threw it out
461
00:19:13,230 --> 00:19:14,610
and started over again.
462
00:19:14,610 --> 00:19:16,800
That would not be the
model I would recommend
463
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:18,000
or the approach I would recommend.
464
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:19,560
So that, that's really helpful.
465
00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:21,840
And last question, you know,
we've shared a little bit
466
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:23,550
with you about the Illinois model.
467
00:19:23,550 --> 00:19:27,180
Any things that you can say about that
468
00:19:27,180 --> 00:19:28,770
or what, what you're seeing in that
469
00:19:28,770 --> 00:19:30,840
that is either interesting or,
470
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:32,490
or you would've questions about?
471
00:19:32,490 --> 00:19:35,880
- Mm, so I
472
00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:42,120
I, what struck me about the
proposed model in Illinois is
473
00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:45,990
that it has both an adequacy
focus and an equity focus.
474
00:19:47,310 --> 00:19:49,680
So just to, to provide
sort of the definitions
475
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:51,900
that I'm working with here.
476
00:19:51,900 --> 00:19:54,900
Funding adequacy generally
focus on whether students
477
00:19:54,900 --> 00:19:58,650
or institutions receive a
certain level of funding required
478
00:19:58,650 --> 00:20:01,350
to reach some specified outcome or goal.
479
00:20:01,350 --> 00:20:03,810
And usually that's determined by policy
480
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:06,960
in the higher ed sector,
481
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,620
but you can have adequacy
without equity, right?
482
00:20:09,620 --> 00:20:11,670
So you can have a minimum
level of funding achieved
483
00:20:11,670 --> 00:20:12,720
for all colleges, but it,
484
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,330
but there could be wide
disparities across the colleges
485
00:20:15,330 --> 00:20:16,650
and that's where equity comes in.
486
00:20:16,650 --> 00:20:19,800
So funding equity focuses
more on the distribution
487
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,320
of resources across institutions
488
00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:26,100
and how resources vary from
institution to institution.
489
00:20:26,100 --> 00:20:29,040
And there's also an additional
component to it, which is
490
00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,160
how funding levels for
institutions correlate
491
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:33,780
with student demographics, right?
492
00:20:33,780 --> 00:20:36,450
So student institutions
that serve higher shares
493
00:20:36,450 --> 00:20:38,730
of Pell grant recipients for
example, you would want those
494
00:20:38,730 --> 00:20:40,950
to have more funding under a,
495
00:20:40,950 --> 00:20:43,200
what we call a vertical equity lens.
496
00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:47,860
And I view the proposed funding
model as incorporating both
497
00:20:47,860 --> 00:20:49,810
of those, both of those elements.
498
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,800
And what I've seen is that
most state fund first,
499
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:55,090
some states don't have funding models.
500
00:20:55,090 --> 00:20:57,910
The ones that do Don't account for equity
501
00:20:57,910 --> 00:20:59,980
or adequacy, a lot of them don't.
502
00:21:00,970 --> 00:21:04,780
Instead many of them now
focus on performance funding
503
00:21:04,780 --> 00:21:07,750
or prior year funding levels.
504
00:21:07,750 --> 00:21:10,930
Some states have either
an equity component
505
00:21:10,930 --> 00:21:12,130
or an adequacy component.
506
00:21:12,130 --> 00:21:14,980
But what really strikes me
about Illinois's model is that
507
00:21:14,980 --> 00:21:16,990
as I see it, it's really
incorporating both
508
00:21:16,990 --> 00:21:18,910
adequacy and equity.
509
00:21:18,910 --> 00:21:20,800
- Okay, that's really helpful.
Well Denisa, we've thank you
510
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,040
so much for joining us
and giving us your insight
511
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:25,270
and expertise on this.
512
00:21:25,270 --> 00:21:27,820
And we're gonna now
turn it to Robin Stains,
513
00:21:27,820 --> 00:21:29,860
who is leads Advanced Illinois,
514
00:21:30,790 --> 00:21:32,890
a well-respected organization
here that believes
515
00:21:32,890 --> 00:21:35,050
that all students deserve equitable access
516
00:21:35,050 --> 00:21:36,820
to high quality education.
517
00:21:36,820 --> 00:21:39,550
I served on the commission
with her with Robin
518
00:21:39,550 --> 00:21:40,840
and we were charged
519
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,230
with developing the new funding
formula here in Illinois.
520
00:21:44,230 --> 00:21:45,610
So Robin, start with
521
00:21:45,610 --> 00:21:47,500
how did you become involved
in the commission Tar
522
00:21:47,500 --> 00:21:48,700
Commissioners, what kind
523
00:21:48,700 --> 00:21:50,860
of prior experience you had before this?
524
00:21:50,860 --> 00:21:52,360
- Delighted to be here and Denisa,
525
00:21:52,360 --> 00:21:53,680
it was really such a pleasure to,
526
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,260
to listen in on the first
part of the conversation.
527
00:21:57,130 --> 00:21:58,990
So you should just dive
in whatever you want to.
528
00:21:58,990 --> 00:22:03,190
But the way I got involved,
Dan, as I think you know, is
529
00:22:03,190 --> 00:22:06,070
that we advance Illinois
works on educational issues
530
00:22:06,070 --> 00:22:07,090
and systemic
531
00:22:07,090 --> 00:22:08,620
and structural issues from early childhood
532
00:22:08,620 --> 00:22:10,210
through higher education.
533
00:22:10,210 --> 00:22:12,970
We had spent many years
534
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,840
working on the funding
formula that we used
535
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:18,040
for our K 12 schools.
536
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,040
And because the way we did
that was deeply inequitable
537
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:22,630
and was leading to very
inequitable outcomes
538
00:22:22,630 --> 00:22:25,180
and we came up with the
evidence-based formula,
539
00:22:25,180 --> 00:22:27,520
took us a few years to
develop it, we got it passed,
540
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,940
it's been in place now
for going on 10 years.
541
00:22:30,940 --> 00:22:32,950
We're gonna celebrate the
10th anniversary next year.
542
00:22:32,950 --> 00:22:36,220
And it has increased the overall.
543
00:22:36,220 --> 00:22:39,160
And part of it was to
understand what every,
544
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,100
the premise was, what should
every district be spending
545
00:22:42,100 --> 00:22:44,590
understanding that the districts
have different demographics
546
00:22:44,590 --> 00:22:47,920
and different resources
available to them in the form
547
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:49,150
of property taxes.
548
00:22:49,150 --> 00:22:51,550
And so that the state should
really be directing dollars
549
00:22:51,550 --> 00:22:53,830
most heavily to the districts
550
00:22:53,830 --> 00:22:55,840
that have had the highest
need in the fewest resources.
551
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:57,430
And that's exactly what the formula did.
552
00:22:57,430 --> 00:22:58,900
We've been doing that for 10 years.
553
00:22:58,900 --> 00:23:03,550
We are watching in real time gaps
554
00:23:03,550 --> 00:23:07,540
across districts go down 2.4
billion new dollars are flowing
555
00:23:07,540 --> 00:23:09,970
every year to schools
and it's following need.
556
00:23:09,970 --> 00:23:13,780
So we got involved in
this because that was huge
557
00:23:13,780 --> 00:23:17,800
and it was, I think we and legislators
558
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:19,960
and others said, you know,
that's such powerful if you get
559
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,320
the formula right, so much else follows.
560
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,980
Is there work to be done in
other areas in early childhood
561
00:23:26,980 --> 00:23:28,180
in higher education?
562
00:23:28,180 --> 00:23:30,100
And for all the reasons
that Denisa suspect,
563
00:23:30,100 --> 00:23:32,290
we don't have a formula,
we're calling it base plus
564
00:23:32,290 --> 00:23:34,540
that is not a formula that is
really just saying we're just
565
00:23:34,540 --> 00:23:36,850
gonna spread the peanut butter
and if there were inequities
566
00:23:36,850 --> 00:23:37,780
coming in, there's gonna be
567
00:23:37,780 --> 00:23:38,980
inequities at the back end of that.
568
00:23:38,980 --> 00:23:40,570
And how much peanut butter, it's gonna be
569
00:23:40,570 --> 00:23:41,650
that balance wheel problem.
570
00:23:41,650 --> 00:23:43,810
It's, it's more, if we've got
more, it's less if we don't,
571
00:23:43,810 --> 00:23:46,610
it's not really pegged any priorities.
572
00:23:46,610 --> 00:23:48,950
Not around student groups,
not around state objectives
573
00:23:48,950 --> 00:23:51,080
and not even around
institutional missions.
574
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:55,070
And so when in about 2020 we and partners
575
00:23:55,070 --> 00:23:58,550
and legislators were having
a variety of conversations
576
00:23:58,550 --> 00:24:01,790
and you know, exacerbated
by COVID, exacerbated
577
00:24:01,790 --> 00:24:04,790
by George Floyd that it is time for us
578
00:24:04,790 --> 00:24:06,200
to do significantly better.
579
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,030
We are not adequate. We are not equitable.
580
00:24:08,030 --> 00:24:10,220
And more importantly, the
final piece that you spoke
581
00:24:10,220 --> 00:24:13,160
to Denisa, and I know you
live Dan, is we're not,
582
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,800
we're not predictable and and sustainable.
583
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,200
And so institutions do
not know year to year
584
00:24:19,130 --> 00:24:20,510
what they're going to have to work with.
585
00:24:20,510 --> 00:24:23,120
I don't know how you run a
multimillion dollar in the case
586
00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:24,230
sometimes it's hundreds of millions
587
00:24:24,230 --> 00:24:26,480
of dollar organization without that.
588
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,340
And that was the other
benefit in the K 12 is
589
00:24:28,340 --> 00:24:30,440
that there was predictability
590
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,300
that districts the first
time had a sense of
591
00:24:32,300 --> 00:24:34,880
what was coming, what they could count on
592
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:35,990
and what the growth was gonna be.
593
00:24:35,990 --> 00:24:38,960
So the idea was could we
take that, it would have
594
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,780
to be applied differently
obviously in higher education
595
00:24:41,780 --> 00:24:45,410
and could we do better in
four years, legislators agreed
596
00:24:45,410 --> 00:24:46,910
and they called for a commission
597
00:24:46,910 --> 00:24:48,710
and that's when you and I met.
598
00:24:50,805 --> 00:24:54,290
- Yeah. And the focus of
the commission really was on
599
00:24:54,290 --> 00:24:57,140
that kind of adequate and
equitable funding formula
600
00:24:57,140 --> 00:24:58,340
and that's what we were charged
601
00:24:58,340 --> 00:25:01,130
to do clearly from the
beginning, similar to
602
00:25:01,130 --> 00:25:02,630
what you had done in K 12,
603
00:25:02,630 --> 00:25:05,120
but it's not exactly the same model
604
00:25:05,120 --> 00:25:06,950
as you developed in K 12.
605
00:25:06,950 --> 00:25:08,750
And so can you talk a little
bit about the differences
606
00:25:08,750 --> 00:25:11,300
between higher education
and K 12 in your mind
607
00:25:11,300 --> 00:25:13,460
and how some of those
differences played out
608
00:25:13,460 --> 00:25:14,540
in developing this model?
609
00:25:15,530 --> 00:25:16,670
- I mean, first of all, I wanna start
610
00:25:16,670 --> 00:25:18,680
with similarities like the, the the,
611
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,080
there are some really important
similarities that starting
612
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,930
with the premise of, and we, you know,
613
00:25:23,930 --> 00:25:25,220
you maybe we're gonna
talk about this later,
614
00:25:25,220 --> 00:25:26,630
but I gotta talk about
it first if that's okay.
615
00:25:26,630 --> 00:25:30,290
I'm just gonna, you know,
go rogue, which is we, one
616
00:25:30,290 --> 00:25:32,420
of the first things the commission
did was look to say like
617
00:25:32,420 --> 00:25:33,500
what have other states done
618
00:25:33,500 --> 00:25:35,930
and performance based funding was,
619
00:25:35,930 --> 00:25:38,570
has really been a trend
over the last 15, 20 years,
620
00:25:38,570 --> 00:25:40,790
but it's now been around long
enough that we can look at it
621
00:25:40,790 --> 00:25:43,340
and see how it's working
622
00:25:43,340 --> 00:25:45,680
and it leads to a lot of
unintended consequences.
623
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,240
People game it, it can tend
624
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,470
to reward you if you are
bringing in more affluent or
625
00:25:51,470 --> 00:25:54,590
or better academically prepared students.
626
00:25:54,590 --> 00:25:56,570
Even what what you
really want is to sup is
627
00:25:56,570 --> 00:25:58,370
to provide more support institutions
628
00:25:58,370 --> 00:25:59,630
that maybe have students
629
00:25:59,630 --> 00:26:01,220
that are gonna need
that additional support.
630
00:26:01,220 --> 00:26:03,800
And so you end up with some
perverse, so we were seeing
631
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:05,210
that a number of those
states were going back
632
00:26:05,210 --> 00:26:07,280
to the drawing board and
633
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,980
what we could draw on from
K 12 is K 12 looked at it
634
00:26:09,980 --> 00:26:12,920
and said, what do districts
need in order to do the job
635
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:14,270
that we're asking to do?
636
00:26:14,270 --> 00:26:15,920
What are the outcomes
that we want them to get?
637
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:17,150
Sort of to Denisa's point.
638
00:26:17,150 --> 00:26:19,010
And we sort of anchored on that
639
00:26:19,010 --> 00:26:20,990
and what does it cost to do that?
640
00:26:20,990 --> 00:26:23,630
And that's gonna be what
made it more complicated
641
00:26:23,630 --> 00:26:26,060
among other things in higher ed is that
642
00:26:26,060 --> 00:26:27,440
not all institutions are the same.
643
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,570
You've got research one universities,
644
00:26:29,570 --> 00:26:32,360
you've got research two,
you've got research three
645
00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:33,590
students travel, right?
646
00:26:33,590 --> 00:26:35,660
This isn't, it's harder
to predict year over year
647
00:26:35,660 --> 00:26:36,920
what students are you gonna have.
648
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,100
You've got more, there
are more things you can do
649
00:26:40,100 --> 00:26:42,560
to attract students.
650
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,000
You've gotta deal with the tuition factor.
651
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,660
You know, poverty taxes are a
lot more stable than tuition
652
00:26:48,660 --> 00:26:50,550
and a lot, you know, they are reactive
653
00:26:50,550 --> 00:26:52,290
to what's happening in state funding
654
00:26:52,290 --> 00:26:53,430
but in a very different way.
655
00:26:53,430 --> 00:26:55,770
So there's just dramatically
different dynamics
656
00:26:55,770 --> 00:26:57,060
that you have to understand
657
00:26:57,060 --> 00:27:01,110
and bring into bear,
including the costing out.
658
00:27:01,110 --> 00:27:02,880
And so Denisa said, so
what hearsay, we had
659
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,370
to do the same thing you
have to cost out, you know,
660
00:27:05,370 --> 00:27:07,200
you've got engineering,
we're not thinking so much
661
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:08,940
as does it cost different
to teach math than it does
662
00:27:08,940 --> 00:27:10,140
English than it does history.
663
00:27:10,140 --> 00:27:12,330
We didn't have to know that. But you do,
664
00:27:12,330 --> 00:27:14,340
an engineering program is
gonna cost something different
665
00:27:14,340 --> 00:27:16,800
than a, than an English program.
666
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:18,000
Medical schools
667
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,870
and all mindful effect to
Denisa's point, anything
668
00:27:21,870 --> 00:27:23,760
that you pull outta the
formula now you've just,
669
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:25,620
you've just allowed inequity
to come right back in.
670
00:27:25,620 --> 00:27:28,200
So you want as much as
possible to be in there,
671
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,590
which means you really
gotta tackle a lot of,
672
00:27:31,590 --> 00:27:33,060
you've gotta do a lot of costing
673
00:27:33,060 --> 00:27:34,890
and analytics that we are not used
674
00:27:34,890 --> 00:27:36,840
to doing in the higher education space.
675
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,770
But the an but knowing that
you could think about in terms
676
00:27:40,770 --> 00:27:42,210
of what should we be spending
677
00:27:42,210 --> 00:27:44,370
to get the outcomes we want
rather than we're only gonna
678
00:27:44,370 --> 00:27:45,990
give you money if you
already get the outcomes.
679
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,130
And that was a real, that was a real,
680
00:27:50,130 --> 00:27:51,360
we looked at the first we
681
00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:52,620
said that's probably not gonna work.
682
00:27:52,620 --> 00:27:53,730
Let's at least explore this
683
00:27:53,730 --> 00:27:55,380
and see if there's a,
there there and there was,
684
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,620
- Yeah, no there's some good points and
685
00:27:58,620 --> 00:27:59,730
and I think it was interesting even
686
00:27:59,730 --> 00:28:02,060
as you were talking about, you know,
687
00:28:02,060 --> 00:28:03,420
we did look at the performance base
688
00:28:03,420 --> 00:28:04,560
and I think my concern
689
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,540
with it having looked
at at other places was
690
00:28:06,540 --> 00:28:08,100
that the rich tended to get richer
691
00:28:08,100 --> 00:28:10,020
and the institutions that
were serving the more
692
00:28:10,020 --> 00:28:13,260
socioeconomically diverse
populations got poor.
693
00:28:13,260 --> 00:28:14,790
And you, but you also talked about one
694
00:28:14,790 --> 00:28:16,050
of the differences we see
695
00:28:16,050 --> 00:28:18,990
with higher ed versus K 12 is
not only is our state funding
696
00:28:18,990 --> 00:28:22,350
unpredictable, but our
tuition dollar funding is
697
00:28:22,350 --> 00:28:26,250
unpredictable because enrollment
can go up or down by 10%
698
00:28:26,250 --> 00:28:29,610
or more in a year, which
can cause a dramatic change
699
00:28:29,610 --> 00:28:31,830
for an institution which
is less likely to happen
700
00:28:31,830 --> 00:28:34,620
with say property tax
revenue and much less and,
701
00:28:34,620 --> 00:28:35,910
and you're much more likely to know
702
00:28:35,910 --> 00:28:38,760
how many eighth graders you
have seven or eight years before
703
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:40,530
because you can see them
going through the system.
704
00:28:40,530 --> 00:28:41,910
It may vary some in a community
705
00:28:41,910 --> 00:28:45,270
but it's less likely to vary
The way ours is is much more
706
00:28:45,270 --> 00:28:47,790
so, and and I know some of
the performance funding,
707
00:28:47,790 --> 00:28:49,410
it doesn't have what we have in ours,
708
00:28:49,410 --> 00:28:51,360
which is the hold harmless.
709
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:52,560
So some of those that go through
710
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,080
that decline not only have
a huge decline in tuition
711
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,240
revenue, they have a huge
decline in state funding at the
712
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:58,650
same time which kind
713
00:28:58,650 --> 00:29:00,810
of leads the public institution
into a death spiral.
714
00:29:00,810 --> 00:29:02,640
And we certainly wanted to avoid some
715
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,620
of those issues when we're
developing this model.
716
00:29:06,150 --> 00:29:08,970
- And I will say one of the
things that made K 12 work
717
00:29:08,970 --> 00:29:11,340
that I think we've also
stolen the page is that
718
00:29:11,340 --> 00:29:15,150
the whole harmless for both
for K 12 that we've now sort
719
00:29:15,150 --> 00:29:18,000
of stolen that playbook is
nobody's gonna get any less than
720
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:19,650
they got the prior year.
721
00:29:19,650 --> 00:29:22,380
And so your base funding
minimum continues to grow.
722
00:29:22,380 --> 00:29:24,120
So we give you more money, you know,
723
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,570
year one now year two it's
what you got in year one plus.
724
00:29:27,570 --> 00:29:29,370
So, and we build that in
725
00:29:29,370 --> 00:29:31,200
and that leads to that predictability
726
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,590
that I was talking about that
allows districts to plan.
727
00:29:34,590 --> 00:29:36,360
So by having it, it's
more than just a hold
728
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:37,770
harmless for one year.
729
00:29:37,770 --> 00:29:41,080
We're not going to get
drop you below 2025,
730
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:42,850
whatever you get 26, we're
not gonna drop you below
731
00:29:42,850 --> 00:29:46,180
that when we go to 27 when
you, when we move from 27 to,
732
00:29:46,180 --> 00:29:48,730
and that allows you to
make longer term plans
733
00:29:48,730 --> 00:29:51,340
because maybe then we, maybe
there'll be a year we can't.
734
00:29:51,340 --> 00:29:53,590
And we agree upfront on a 10 year plan of
735
00:29:53,590 --> 00:29:54,880
what those increases are gonna be.
736
00:29:55,870 --> 00:29:58,450
And because everybody understood
737
00:29:58,450 --> 00:30:00,010
that if you're gonna
distribute money equitable,
738
00:30:00,010 --> 00:30:01,060
if you're gonna get new dollars more
739
00:30:01,060 --> 00:30:03,250
and hold harmless, it's all the good,
740
00:30:03,250 --> 00:30:05,440
all the equitable good is
gonna be in the new dollars
741
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:06,970
and how they get distributed.
742
00:30:06,970 --> 00:30:08,650
'cause you're not stealing,
you're not robbing Peter
743
00:30:08,650 --> 00:30:10,570
to pay Paul, I'm not taking
away from university A
744
00:30:10,570 --> 00:30:11,980
to give you university B,
745
00:30:11,980 --> 00:30:15,190
I've gotta put enough new dollars
in to keep everybody whole
746
00:30:15,190 --> 00:30:18,640
and to make sure that I can
catch up the universities.
747
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,320
The other big thing that happened in K 12
748
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,110
that is happening now is for
the first time we know we've
749
00:30:23,110 --> 00:30:26,590
got universities that have
50% of what they need.
750
00:30:26,590 --> 00:30:28,060
We could never calculate that before.
751
00:30:28,060 --> 00:30:30,820
We didn't have an agreed
upon way of understanding
752
00:30:30,820 --> 00:30:32,680
what different campuses
ought to be spending
753
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,880
to meet their missions and
their student demographics.
754
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:41,080
And once you hear that, oh
my god, they've got 50% all
755
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:42,820
of a sudden too that whole
performance conversation like,
756
00:30:42,820 --> 00:30:43,630
well of course they're not
757
00:30:43,630 --> 00:30:44,770
getting all the outcomes we want, right?
758
00:30:44,770 --> 00:30:48,130
They've got 50% of what they need
759
00:30:48,130 --> 00:30:49,720
and yes, we wanna have expectations
760
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:50,860
and there has to be accountability
761
00:30:50,860 --> 00:30:52,330
and we have to care about outcomes.
762
00:30:52,330 --> 00:30:54,310
Nobody wants to let down on that.
763
00:30:54,310 --> 00:30:55,750
But surely that conversation has
764
00:30:55,750 --> 00:30:58,805
to be different when you're at
50% than when you're at 90%.
765
00:30:58,805 --> 00:31:01,990
And, and and we are trying
to take that into account.
766
00:31:01,990 --> 00:31:04,600
- Yeah, absolutely. That's
part of the accountability
767
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:06,790
that we've, we've talked
about within the model.
768
00:31:06,790 --> 00:31:08,920
And can you provide just
a real brief overview of
769
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:10,145
how the model works? I
770
00:31:10,145 --> 00:31:12,520
- Know I I zoomed right by that part.
771
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,975
I've completely ruined the,
I'm so sorry. No, no it's fine.
772
00:31:14,975 --> 00:31:18,940
Okay. The formula works if
your very savvy listeners have
773
00:31:18,940 --> 00:31:21,820
not already figured this
out just implicitly,
774
00:31:21,820 --> 00:31:22,990
you wanna figure out
775
00:31:22,990 --> 00:31:24,850
what should every university be spending.
776
00:31:24,850 --> 00:31:27,160
And that means you've
gotta understand their,
777
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,440
you gotta understand operationally
what their mission is
778
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,450
and the students that they're serving,
779
00:31:31,450 --> 00:31:33,190
how many students do they have?
780
00:31:33,190 --> 00:31:35,260
But also as Denisa was saying,
781
00:31:35,260 --> 00:31:36,970
different students walk in the door.
782
00:31:36,970 --> 00:31:38,800
You can ex with different needs.
783
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,050
And so if you've got students
who are walking in with sort
784
00:31:41,050 --> 00:31:42,700
of wobbly or GPAs,
785
00:31:42,700 --> 00:31:44,530
they're gonna maybe need
more academic support,
786
00:31:44,530 --> 00:31:47,620
we can actually cost out
what that's gonna cost.
787
00:31:47,620 --> 00:31:49,900
We can see what successful
programs look like, what it costs
788
00:31:49,900 --> 00:31:52,570
to put them in place and
we can price that out.
789
00:31:52,570 --> 00:31:54,160
So we can look at every university
790
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:55,600
and say here's your mission here,
791
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:56,740
your here are the features we need
792
00:31:56,740 --> 00:31:57,730
to know are you research one,
793
00:31:57,730 --> 00:31:58,630
do you have an engineering program?
794
00:31:58,630 --> 00:32:01,090
Do you have a medical school?
How many students do you have?
795
00:32:01,090 --> 00:32:03,010
What's the, what are the
demographics of the students?
796
00:32:03,010 --> 00:32:05,410
How many of those students
fall into these categories
797
00:32:05,410 --> 00:32:08,920
where we could expect they need
other support factor that in
798
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:10,060
put all that into an algorithm
799
00:32:10,060 --> 00:32:11,500
that is super savvy, super wonderful.
800
00:32:11,500 --> 00:32:13,060
Denisa would understand all of it, some
801
00:32:13,060 --> 00:32:15,790
of your listeners wouldn't
but just trust us it's there
802
00:32:15,790 --> 00:32:18,370
and we can spit out a number
that changes year to year
803
00:32:18,370 --> 00:32:20,530
because all those dynamics
change every year to year, right?
804
00:32:20,530 --> 00:32:22,540
You may get more engineering
students next year,
805
00:32:22,540 --> 00:32:26,410
you may cut your engineering
program, et cetera, et cetera.
806
00:32:26,410 --> 00:32:28,510
So every year you're recalculating,
807
00:32:28,510 --> 00:32:29,890
you're doing rolling three your averages
808
00:32:29,890 --> 00:32:32,380
and you can identify an adequacy target.
809
00:32:32,380 --> 00:32:35,410
This is the target amount
of funding you ought to have
810
00:32:35,410 --> 00:32:38,860
to do your work well and to
get the outcomes we want.
811
00:32:38,860 --> 00:32:41,870
The next thing you want to
know is, well, okay fine, what,
812
00:32:41,870 --> 00:32:44,210
what resources do you
have to bring to bear?
813
00:32:44,210 --> 00:32:47,300
The big one there is tuition,
which is really tricky
814
00:32:47,300 --> 00:32:49,070
because some people are
paying full tuition,
815
00:32:49,070 --> 00:32:50,150
some people are getting scholarship
816
00:32:50,150 --> 00:32:51,620
support, some people are getting a map.
817
00:32:51,620 --> 00:32:55,100
So we had to figure out a
way of understanding how to,
818
00:32:55,100 --> 00:32:57,500
in a smooth, predictable way,
819
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:00,170
how much money you could reasonably expect
820
00:33:00,170 --> 00:33:01,460
to bring in I tuition revenue.
821
00:33:01,460 --> 00:33:04,010
And we came up with a concept
that the net tuition revenue,
822
00:33:04,010 --> 00:33:07,040
which is a concept people
understand, can we calculate what
823
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,440
that is and can we sort of
freeze it in place for a minute?
824
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,330
'cause we don't wanna,
again, you don't want weird
825
00:33:11,330 --> 00:33:15,170
and quirky incentives so
we can calculate, again,
826
00:33:15,170 --> 00:33:16,370
there's a base for understanding
827
00:33:16,370 --> 00:33:18,680
what the net tuition revenue is at every
828
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:20,390
institution you subtract.
829
00:33:20,390 --> 00:33:21,800
And then there are a few other,
830
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:23,900
there are a few other resource
things that we look at.
831
00:33:23,900 --> 00:33:24,890
You don't need to worry about those grant
832
00:33:24,890 --> 00:33:25,670
dollars, things like that.
833
00:33:25,670 --> 00:33:28,310
We, we wrestled through
all of that some specialty
834
00:33:28,310 --> 00:33:30,920
that these carve outs
that Denisa mentioned
835
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,850
that are directly bare on your
cost, we'll factor those in,
836
00:33:34,850 --> 00:33:36,980
some don't, those are
for different reasons.
837
00:33:36,980 --> 00:33:38,480
We can factor those out. So anyway,
838
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:39,740
we develop a resource profile.
839
00:33:39,740 --> 00:33:42,830
So adequacy target is here, we know
840
00:33:42,830 --> 00:33:44,840
what your resource profile
is, how much you can expect
841
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,170
to bring in the gap between those two is
842
00:33:48,170 --> 00:33:49,340
how underfunded you are.
843
00:33:49,340 --> 00:33:51,560
That's your adequacy gap.
844
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,240
And again, we've got some institutions
845
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,460
with a 12% adequacy gap.
846
00:33:55,460 --> 00:33:59,180
We've got some institutions
with a 50% adequacy gap.
847
00:33:59,180 --> 00:34:00,535
So the, the last piece
848
00:34:00,535 --> 00:34:04,100
and the final piece of the
puzzle is when new dollars come
849
00:34:04,100 --> 00:34:06,440
in and part of the whole grand bargain is
850
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,110
that we should be putting
in $135 million here.
851
00:34:09,110 --> 00:34:11,360
We now what? You know, we
know when the global gap is
852
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:12,620
what all of our universities need.
853
00:34:12,620 --> 00:34:14,510
If we were to be fully funded tomorrow
854
00:34:15,380 --> 00:34:17,330
and we're like, we're not
gonna get there overnight,
855
00:34:17,330 --> 00:34:20,030
so let's map it out, how
much should we be putting in
856
00:34:20,030 --> 00:34:21,800
for each of the next 10 years?
857
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:23,120
The same thing we went through with K 12.
858
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:24,860
People bought it, they,
and they stayed true to it.
859
00:34:26,150 --> 00:34:29,060
We we're asking for 135 million
a year to put us on pace
860
00:34:29,060 --> 00:34:31,430
and let's distribute those dollars.
861
00:34:31,430 --> 00:34:34,250
Not peanut butter across the board,
862
00:34:34,250 --> 00:34:36,080
but based on how far
from adequacy you are.
863
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:37,730
So if you are further from adequacy,
864
00:34:37,730 --> 00:34:40,340
you are gonna get a bigger
share of those new dollars.
865
00:34:40,340 --> 00:34:42,830
As you catch up, your share may decrease.
866
00:34:42,830 --> 00:34:44,540
And those, you know what I mean, it starts
867
00:34:44,540 --> 00:34:46,280
to level out over time.
868
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:47,660
So you're taking equity into account
869
00:34:47,660 --> 00:34:49,760
by looking at your
mission and your students.
870
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:51,680
And those are differential needs
871
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:53,810
and in how we distribute
the dollars to make sure
872
00:34:53,810 --> 00:34:57,380
that we are catching up those
furthest away more quickly
873
00:34:57,380 --> 00:34:59,210
without doing harm to
those that are closer.
874
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,620
- Yeah, no that's a good
explanation of of how we got to it.
875
00:35:03,620 --> 00:35:07,850
And I think again, there's a
lot that's similar with EBF
876
00:35:07,850 --> 00:35:11,120
and how you all did that with
K 12 of doing it over kind
877
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:12,260
of multiple years.
878
00:35:12,260 --> 00:35:14,810
But I think it was important
you talked about the,
879
00:35:14,810 --> 00:35:16,160
what each institution needs.
880
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,740
One of the things we had to
think about was not only is
881
00:35:18,740 --> 00:35:21,465
what's the profile of the
student body look like, but what,
882
00:35:21,465 --> 00:35:22,970
and you mentioned this really is the
883
00:35:22,970 --> 00:35:24,230
different types of students you have.
884
00:35:25,100 --> 00:35:26,360
And I think that's one of the things
885
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,400
that makes this very
different than K 12 is,
886
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,830
as I mentioned more times
than you all wanted to hear,
887
00:35:30,830 --> 00:35:33,980
the cost of educating a medical
school student is vastly
888
00:35:33,980 --> 00:35:36,740
greater than an undergraduate
student in English.
889
00:35:36,740 --> 00:35:39,240
It just, and so we had to
figure out how do you factor
890
00:35:39,240 --> 00:35:41,160
that into the model, which wasn't easy
891
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,380
because I don't think anybody
else had done that before.
892
00:35:43,380 --> 00:35:45,150
So we had to kind of
figure that piece out.
893
00:35:45,150 --> 00:35:47,970
So it did take a lot of work.
894
00:35:47,970 --> 00:35:48,990
Talk just a little bit about
895
00:35:48,990 --> 00:35:52,230
what you think the impact
will be, both on families
896
00:35:52,230 --> 00:35:55,530
but on kind of outcomes
and, and state performance.
897
00:35:57,030 --> 00:36:01,860
- I mean the, if we can do,
if we can pass this formula,
898
00:36:01,860 --> 00:36:03,990
I think what it does is it also
takes some of the politics.
899
00:36:03,990 --> 00:36:05,430
You were, you were
talking in the first part
900
00:36:05,430 --> 00:36:07,710
of the program about the
role that politics plays
901
00:36:07,710 --> 00:36:09,330
and there's, we're not immune
to that here in Illinois.
902
00:36:09,330 --> 00:36:12,150
We are Illinois after
all. And politics does.
903
00:36:13,500 --> 00:36:16,170
And what you wanna do
is, is minimize that.
904
00:36:16,170 --> 00:36:18,630
And when you've got a
formula, you minimize that
905
00:36:18,630 --> 00:36:20,730
and particularly the more that
you can keep in the formula
906
00:36:20,730 --> 00:36:22,170
and not carve out.
907
00:36:22,170 --> 00:36:24,300
So we've worked really
hard not to do carve outs.
908
00:36:24,300 --> 00:36:25,530
We're gonna have to remain vigilant
909
00:36:25,530 --> 00:36:27,990
to make sure we don't have
carve outs in the future.
910
00:36:27,990 --> 00:36:29,880
And so one of the things
that Bill does is it puts an
911
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:31,860
oversight panel in place
to keep minding the store,
912
00:36:31,860 --> 00:36:33,900
minding the store, minding the store.
913
00:36:33,900 --> 00:36:36,570
But if we can do that and if
we stay true to the bargain,
914
00:36:36,570 --> 00:36:39,690
we can, we will start putting in a hundred
915
00:36:39,690 --> 00:36:44,370
to $135 million a year and
catching up institutions.
916
00:36:44,370 --> 00:36:48,960
And I am, I am really impressed
by some of the outcomes
917
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:50,130
that our institutions are getting that are
918
00:36:50,130 --> 00:36:51,720
so deeply underfunded.
919
00:36:51,720 --> 00:36:53,190
And I think what we can expect
920
00:36:53,190 --> 00:36:55,440
to see is one tuition is going
921
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,780
to stabilize and or come down.
922
00:36:57,780 --> 00:37:00,090
We have been just like
Denisa mentioned nationally,
923
00:37:00,090 --> 00:37:02,370
Illinois two has been
putting more money in.
924
00:37:02,370 --> 00:37:03,780
We've been doing about between one
925
00:37:03,780 --> 00:37:05,610
to 3% over the last few years.
926
00:37:05,610 --> 00:37:07,500
And what you see is that our tuition,
927
00:37:07,500 --> 00:37:08,880
which had been climbing,
climbing, climbing
928
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,370
because we were so underfunded,
had in fact started
929
00:37:11,370 --> 00:37:13,740
to stabilize and in a few,
in a few places even started
930
00:37:13,740 --> 00:37:16,290
to come down if you
ought see that continue
931
00:37:16,290 --> 00:37:17,850
and be even more so.
932
00:37:17,850 --> 00:37:20,790
So I think that it will make,
the affordability will be
933
00:37:20,790 --> 00:37:24,150
so much greater as a result of this.
934
00:37:24,150 --> 00:37:25,620
So that's huge in number one.
935
00:37:25,620 --> 00:37:28,290
And I think the single biggest
reason why people either
936
00:37:28,290 --> 00:37:29,460
don't go in the first instance
937
00:37:29,460 --> 00:37:32,490
or stop out is money,
money, money, money, money.
938
00:37:32,490 --> 00:37:35,340
And at a time when I think
universities, we know
939
00:37:35,340 --> 00:37:37,980
that most jobs require
some higher education.
940
00:37:37,980 --> 00:37:40,080
The idea that we're pricing
people out is insane.
941
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:43,350
But you guys are seeing that too.
942
00:37:43,350 --> 00:37:46,590
That, you know, often it's,
so I think number one,
943
00:37:46,590 --> 00:37:49,710
the affordability, we need
more people to be able
944
00:37:49,710 --> 00:37:51,600
to come to universities.
945
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:53,370
It benefits them, it
benefits their communities,
946
00:37:53,370 --> 00:37:54,750
it benefits our state
947
00:37:54,750 --> 00:37:58,020
and we are making it so much
harder than it needs to be.
948
00:37:58,020 --> 00:37:59,160
So I think the biggest is just
949
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:00,510
affordability is gonna come down.
950
00:38:00,510 --> 00:38:02,190
But the second you said
951
00:38:02,190 --> 00:38:03,360
that you're kind of the stepchild, right?
952
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:04,500
Nobody would rather give money
953
00:38:04,500 --> 00:38:07,350
to scholarship dollars
than to institutions.
954
00:38:07,350 --> 00:38:10,140
And I think what people
miss when they do that,
955
00:38:10,140 --> 00:38:11,370
when you give money to the institutions,
956
00:38:11,370 --> 00:38:12,900
it allows 'em to keep the tuition low.
957
00:38:12,900 --> 00:38:14,580
Huge affordability benefit.
958
00:38:14,580 --> 00:38:17,340
But the other thing that allows
them to do is to be ready
959
00:38:17,340 --> 00:38:21,300
to, to serve their students
well if we can get the money
960
00:38:21,300 --> 00:38:24,000
to the universities that we
know have student populations
961
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,460
that need those additional
supports, be they social,
962
00:38:26,460 --> 00:38:27,660
be they academic, be they,
963
00:38:27,660 --> 00:38:31,530
otherwise they will in fact be
able to build those programs.
964
00:38:31,530 --> 00:38:33,990
So not only will it be more
affordable for people to come,
965
00:38:33,990 --> 00:38:36,100
which is half the battle,
but it's only half.
966
00:38:36,100 --> 00:38:38,830
The second is they've
gotta have what they need
967
00:38:38,830 --> 00:38:40,270
to be successful once they're there.
968
00:38:40,270 --> 00:38:42,790
Because if they come and they
don't complete, nobody wins.
969
00:38:42,790 --> 00:38:44,890
So we need both hands clapping.
970
00:38:44,890 --> 00:38:47,830
So I think those are the
two things, more affordable,
971
00:38:47,830 --> 00:38:49,210
better supports when kids get there.
972
00:38:49,210 --> 00:38:52,180
And as a result, more
persistence, more completion.
973
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:55,870
- Yeah, no, I think that's
both the affordability
974
00:38:55,870 --> 00:38:59,050
but also the ability to us for
us to support the students.
975
00:38:59,050 --> 00:39:00,940
I always say, I think in higher education,
976
00:39:00,940 --> 00:39:02,380
I've been doing this for a long time
977
00:39:02,380 --> 00:39:04,330
and been involved with a lot of programs
978
00:39:04,330 --> 00:39:07,870
that have been highly, highly
successful in increasing
979
00:39:07,870 --> 00:39:10,090
student success rates, both retention,
980
00:39:10,090 --> 00:39:12,040
graduation rates and things like that.
981
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,070
But some of them are
very resource intensive
982
00:39:15,070 --> 00:39:16,450
and are very difficult
983
00:39:16,450 --> 00:39:18,610
and I still have to pay the electricity
984
00:39:18,610 --> 00:39:21,100
and I still have to make sure
our building's operational.
985
00:39:21,100 --> 00:39:23,170
And so sometimes there
simply isn't enough money
986
00:39:23,170 --> 00:39:25,120
to invest into all the
programs I would like to,
987
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,520
and I think this would allow
us to expand those programs,
988
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,460
which increases the success
rate, which is great not only
989
00:39:30,460 --> 00:39:31,750
for the families but for the state.
990
00:39:31,750 --> 00:39:34,330
You now have more college graduates and,
991
00:39:34,330 --> 00:39:37,865
and a more successful e economy.
992
00:39:37,865 --> 00:39:40,900
- And, and if I could just
add like the, the, the, the,
993
00:39:40,900 --> 00:39:44,860
the bill also calls for the,
the, the model calls for a lot
994
00:39:44,860 --> 00:39:45,940
of transparency around that.
995
00:39:45,940 --> 00:39:47,260
How are you actually
spending those dollars?
996
00:39:47,260 --> 00:39:49,840
Are you using those dollars in those ways?
997
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:51,460
That is what we're hoping you will do
998
00:39:51,460 --> 00:39:53,170
and that we think will lead
to those better support.
999
00:39:53,170 --> 00:39:55,180
So we, we will be taking close attention
1000
00:39:55,180 --> 00:39:57,160
and if you don't, there
will be consequences.
1001
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,640
But I will also say when federal
esser dollars came during
1002
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,010
COVID, we did pay attention to
1003
00:40:03,010 --> 00:40:04,330
how those dollars were spent up
1004
00:40:04,330 --> 00:40:06,820
and down, you know, early
childhood were higher ed
1005
00:40:06,820 --> 00:40:09,405
and that is in fact how
universities spent them.
1006
00:40:09,405 --> 00:40:11,110
And so I think there is
some mistrust out there.
1007
00:40:11,110 --> 00:40:12,730
Are they just, you know,
are they gonna spend a lot
1008
00:40:12,730 --> 00:40:14,860
of money on administrators
like build swing pools
1009
00:40:14,860 --> 00:40:17,080
and things like what we
saw when we looked at
1010
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,300
that is you guys were really
spending the dollars exactly
1011
00:40:19,300 --> 00:40:21,400
how the public would've
expected and wanted you to.
1012
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,150
So, but also just in
case we'll be monitoring.
1013
00:40:25,150 --> 00:40:26,440
- Yeah, absolutely. And, and I,
1014
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:27,640
but I will say it was interesting,
1015
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,130
we were testifying on
the funding formula and,
1016
00:40:30,130 --> 00:40:31,600
and we did get that question of
1017
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,490
how do we know this will just go to paying
1018
00:40:33,490 --> 00:40:34,960
for administrative salaries
and things like that.
1019
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,450
And then that's like, I always
remember the best predictor
1020
00:40:37,450 --> 00:40:39,220
of future behavior is past behavior.
1021
00:40:39,220 --> 00:40:41,080
And if you looked at what we've
done in the past when we had
1022
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:42,700
additional resources, we tend
1023
00:40:42,700 --> 00:40:44,980
to put it into students
into affordability.
1024
00:40:44,980 --> 00:40:46,780
That's exactly what
we've consistently done.
1025
00:40:46,780 --> 00:40:48,940
So there's no reason to suspect we will,
1026
00:40:48,940 --> 00:40:50,200
we won't do that going forward.
1027
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,000
But to your point, we'll still monitor it.
1028
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:53,410
We'll make sure that we actually are doing
1029
00:40:53,410 --> 00:40:54,910
what we say we we're
going to do. Trust the
1030
00:40:54,910 --> 00:40:55,780
- Verify. Trust
1031
00:40:55,780 --> 00:40:56,780
- The verify.
1032
00:40:56,780 --> 00:40:57,400
Exactly. Yeah. But, but I,
1033
00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,710
but I have faith that,
you know, our university,
1034
00:40:59,710 --> 00:41:01,240
other universities will do the same.
1035
00:41:01,240 --> 00:41:04,120
Anything else you want to add
Robin, before we finish up?
1036
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,400
- No, just that I think this is,
1037
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,100
and Denisa can correct me if I'm wrong,
1038
00:41:09,100 --> 00:41:10,930
I think we would be the first state in the
1039
00:41:10,930 --> 00:41:12,130
nation to do something like this.
1040
00:41:12,130 --> 00:41:13,510
I don't think there is another state
1041
00:41:13,510 --> 00:41:16,600
that has an adequacy based
model quite like this
1042
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:17,890
that is really anchoring first
1043
00:41:17,890 --> 00:41:20,650
and foremost on what should you
be spending then is layering
1044
00:41:20,650 --> 00:41:23,950
equity both at the front end
on the accuracy construction
1045
00:41:23,950 --> 00:41:25,900
and on the distribution side.
1046
00:41:25,900 --> 00:41:28,660
So I think it would be huge
for us to do this, not only
1047
00:41:28,660 --> 00:41:30,940
'cause it's the right thing
for our state and our students
1048
00:41:30,940 --> 00:41:33,830
and our future, but I think
there's a lot to learn
1049
00:41:33,830 --> 00:41:36,230
and I would be really
interested, I mean, my hope is
1050
00:41:36,230 --> 00:41:38,090
that this will, this will catch on
1051
00:41:38,090 --> 00:41:40,100
because I think, I think
we're onto something
1052
00:41:41,210 --> 00:41:43,790
and so, which is luck.
1053
00:41:43,790 --> 00:41:45,980
- Yeah, and I think it's been
part of the exciting part
1054
00:41:45,980 --> 00:41:48,170
of this, but also the challenge is that
1055
00:41:48,170 --> 00:41:51,020
because it is new, no one's done it
1056
00:41:51,020 --> 00:41:52,430
before, you're, you're really creating
1057
00:41:52,430 --> 00:41:53,690
something entirely different.
1058
00:41:53,690 --> 00:41:56,330
And, and that took a lot
of work in several years
1059
00:41:56,330 --> 00:41:58,040
to get us to this point.
1060
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:00,290
But at the same time it can
be transformational not just
1061
00:42:00,290 --> 00:42:02,630
for Illinois, but other
states may follow that model
1062
00:42:02,630 --> 00:42:05,630
and that could help higher
education in general. So can I
1063
00:42:05,630 --> 00:42:06,716
- Then briefly hear, sorry, sorry.
1064
00:42:06,716 --> 00:42:09,560
Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, so
I, i I just want to affirm
1065
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,110
what Robin said, that I
haven't seen anything like this
1066
00:42:12,110 --> 00:42:13,340
anywhere else in the country
1067
00:42:13,340 --> 00:42:16,490
and I I also hope that the
state will actually commit
1068
00:42:16,490 --> 00:42:19,280
to the model, even if there
are implementation challenges,
1069
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,540
I hope that you'll monitor
it, tweak it as needed, but,
1070
00:42:23,540 --> 00:42:26,720
but commit to it is the important part
1071
00:42:26,720 --> 00:42:29,360
because that provides that consistency
1072
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:30,740
and stability that's so important
1073
00:42:30,740 --> 00:42:32,300
for higher education institutions.
1074
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:34,430
- Thank you. And that's what, that's what
1075
00:42:34,430 --> 00:42:35,570
we're hoping for as well.
1076
00:42:35,570 --> 00:42:38,120
So again, I want to thank
both of you for being
1077
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,580
with us today and helping us talk through
1078
00:42:40,580 --> 00:42:43,070
what this funding formula
could look like in Illinois,
1079
00:42:43,070 --> 00:42:44,990
but also kind of how it compares
1080
00:42:44,990 --> 00:42:46,400
to what's going on across the country.
1081
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:48,320
So that's where Denisa's experience and,
1082
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:49,640
and expertise really played in.
1083
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:51,710
So as we wrap up this episode,
1084
00:42:51,710 --> 00:42:54,140
I wanna acknowledge our production
team on the Office hours
1085
00:42:54,140 --> 00:42:58,340
podcast, SIU Edwardsville,
graduate student Solomon Ammond
1086
00:42:58,340 --> 00:43:01,610
and Jason Church at WSIE radio on the SIUE
1087
00:43:01,610 --> 00:43:03,530
campus for their guidance.
1088
00:43:03,530 --> 00:43:05,390
And last but not least, thank you
1089
00:43:05,390 --> 00:43:06,905
to our listeners for tuning in.
1090
00:43:06,905 --> 00:43:07,905
So thank you very much.
1091
00:43:09,650 --> 00:43:11,960
- Be sure to join us
next time on Office Hours
1092
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,390
for further conversation
with the people who work in
1093
00:43:14,390 --> 00:43:16,250
and study higher education.
1094
00:43:16,250 --> 00:43:18,140
Special thanks to Kara Baldus Merman
1095
00:43:18,140 --> 00:43:19,760
and Daniel Merman for the use
1096
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:21,320
of their Composition Writers Block
1097
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:23,270
as the office hours theme song.
1098
00:43:23,270 --> 00:43:25,760
And thank you for
listening to Office Hours
1099
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,160
with SIU System President Dan Mahony.1
00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:03,480
- This is Office Hours
2
00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:07,440
with SIU System President Dan
Mahony, a monthly podcast
3
00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:09,000
that explores what's happening in
4
00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,550
and around American Higher Education.
5
00:00:11,550 --> 00:00:14,670
And now your host SIU System
President Dan Mahony.
6
00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:26,460
- So thank you for
turning into Office Hours.
7
00:00:26,460 --> 00:00:29,700
I'm your host, SIU System
President Dan Mahony.
8
00:00:29,700 --> 00:00:32,310
Public universities have
long relied on state funding
9
00:00:32,310 --> 00:00:34,200
to support their operations.
10
00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:36,630
The rationale for the
support has been that society
11
00:00:36,630 --> 00:00:39,120
and the state specifically
benefits from having an
12
00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:40,920
educated populace.
13
00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,370
The high levels of state support
had kept costs for students
14
00:00:44,370 --> 00:00:46,380
and families low and provided more access
15
00:00:46,380 --> 00:00:48,300
to students from all backgrounds.
16
00:00:48,300 --> 00:00:50,160
In fact, I often hear from alumni about
17
00:00:50,160 --> 00:00:51,300
how inexpensive tuition
18
00:00:51,300 --> 00:00:53,610
and fees were when they were students.
19
00:00:53,610 --> 00:00:55,680
However, over time, the portion
20
00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,410
of funding coming from the
states has generally declined,
21
00:00:58,410 --> 00:01:00,600
which has cost for
students to increase
22
00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,600
and the resources to support
those students to decline.
23
00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:06,030
This occurred because when
state budgets were tight,
24
00:01:06,030 --> 00:01:08,340
they often looked at higher
education appropriations
25
00:01:08,340 --> 00:01:10,800
as a top place to reduce costs.
26
00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:12,420
So whenever the economy was poor,
27
00:01:12,420 --> 00:01:14,700
and that was particularly
true during the nine,
28
00:01:14,700 --> 00:01:16,770
2008 financial crisis,
29
00:01:16,770 --> 00:01:19,440
higher education absorbed
large budget reductions.
30
00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,620
And frankly, they never
recovered to the previous levels.
31
00:01:22,620 --> 00:01:23,880
Not surprisingly, tuition
32
00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:25,620
and fees also increased pretty
33
00:01:25,620 --> 00:01:27,030
dramatically during these times.
34
00:01:28,110 --> 00:01:30,900
In addition to reduction in
support, most states decided
35
00:01:30,900 --> 00:01:33,750
to take a closer look at how
they distribute state funding
36
00:01:33,750 --> 00:01:35,010
among universities
37
00:01:35,010 --> 00:01:37,680
and started developing
higher education funding
38
00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:39,600
models in Illinois.
39
00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:41,250
Over the past 50 plus years,
40
00:01:41,250 --> 00:01:44,190
we used the base adjusted model
in which all universities go
41
00:01:44,190 --> 00:01:47,040
up or down by the same
percentage every year.
42
00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:48,210
Over the last several years,
43
00:01:48,210 --> 00:01:49,710
I've been participating in the development
44
00:01:49,710 --> 00:01:51,570
of a new funding model for Illinois
45
00:01:51,570 --> 00:01:55,260
that would change the way that
fund funding is distributed
46
00:01:55,260 --> 00:01:57,690
across higher education institutions.
47
00:01:57,690 --> 00:01:58,920
The proposed adequate
48
00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,950
and equitable public university
funding act advances a new
49
00:02:01,950 --> 00:02:05,490
evidence-based model designed
to bring greater transparency,
50
00:02:05,490 --> 00:02:06,900
stability, and fairness to
51
00:02:06,900 --> 00:02:09,210
how state resources are distributed.
52
00:02:09,210 --> 00:02:12,270
At its core, the proposal aims
to better align funding with,
53
00:02:12,270 --> 00:02:15,180
with the students who
are being served in order
54
00:02:15,180 --> 00:02:19,020
to better understand public
universities in general.
55
00:02:19,020 --> 00:02:21,990
And the proposed model here in Illinois,
56
00:02:21,990 --> 00:02:23,700
we've we're grateful to be joined
57
00:02:23,700 --> 00:02:27,090
by two experts today on
funding in public universities.
58
00:02:28,290 --> 00:02:29,580
First, we start with Dr.
59
00:02:29,580 --> 00:02:33,570
Denisa Gandara, a associate
professor in education,
60
00:02:33,570 --> 00:02:37,830
leadership and policy at the
University of Texas of Austin.
61
00:02:37,830 --> 00:02:40,080
She has studied funding
models across the nation,
62
00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:41,520
and that's a big part of her research.
63
00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:43,320
So Denisa, thank you for joining us today.
64
00:02:44,430 --> 00:02:46,830
- Thank you for having
me. Happy to be here.
65
00:02:46,830 --> 00:02:48,690
- So if we could start, could
you provide our audience
66
00:02:48,690 --> 00:02:51,180
with an overview of general
trends in state funding
67
00:02:51,180 --> 00:02:52,950
for higher education in recent decades?
68
00:02:54,030 --> 00:02:56,970
- Sure thing. So I can just start, pick up
69
00:02:56,970 --> 00:02:58,140
where you left off.
70
00:02:59,410 --> 00:03:02,200
I'll start at sort of a higher
level in thinking about the
71
00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:06,070
two primary ways in which
states fund higher education
72
00:03:06,070 --> 00:03:07,840
institutions, which is both
73
00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,110
through appropriations which
go directly to institutions
74
00:03:11,110 --> 00:03:12,790
and through student financial aid,
75
00:03:12,790 --> 00:03:14,740
which support students more directly.
76
00:03:14,740 --> 00:03:18,760
Of course, both of those sources
help support institutions,
77
00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,040
but they, they're typically
distinct in state budgets.
78
00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,770
I'll focus here on state
appropriation since the focus
79
00:03:23,770 --> 00:03:26,530
of the podcast is on state funding models
80
00:03:26,530 --> 00:03:28,330
for higher education.
81
00:03:28,330 --> 00:03:31,120
And in my view, the best data
on this topic come from the
82
00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:33,310
state Higher Education Executive Officers
83
00:03:33,310 --> 00:03:35,290
Association or SHEEO.
84
00:03:35,290 --> 00:03:38,080
And according to SHEEO, as you
mentioned, president Mahony,
85
00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:39,220
in recent decades,
86
00:03:39,220 --> 00:03:42,310
there's been significant
volatility in state funding
87
00:03:42,310 --> 00:03:44,200
for higher education.
88
00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:46,120
After the Great Recession, funding
89
00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,310
for higher education really plummeted,
90
00:03:48,310 --> 00:03:50,770
but it has slowly recovered.
91
00:03:50,770 --> 00:03:53,050
And according to SHEEO,
in half of the states,
92
00:03:53,050 --> 00:03:54,850
it exceeds pre-recession levels,
93
00:03:54,850 --> 00:03:56,590
but for half of the states,
94
00:03:56,590 --> 00:03:59,380
it still hasn't reached those levels
95
00:03:59,380 --> 00:04:02,770
that state funding was at in 2008.
96
00:04:02,770 --> 00:04:04,120
And in recent years,
97
00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,630
we have actually seen consistent
increases in state funding
98
00:04:07,630 --> 00:04:11,170
for higher education, partly
as the economy has recovered.
99
00:04:12,070 --> 00:04:15,550
2025 was actually the first
year when funding per student
100
00:04:15,550 --> 00:04:18,640
decreased for the first time in 12 years.
101
00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:21,880
So for 12 years consecutively
on average across the states,
102
00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:24,070
we saw increases in state funding
103
00:04:24,070 --> 00:04:25,930
for higher education institutions.
104
00:04:25,930 --> 00:04:29,035
But just in this last
year, we saw the first dip
105
00:04:29,035 --> 00:04:31,480
a 1% decrease from 2024 levels.
106
00:04:32,410 --> 00:04:33,850
- Yeah, and it's helpful to talk about
107
00:04:33,850 --> 00:04:34,870
those two different things.
108
00:04:34,870 --> 00:04:36,850
And I, and I will say, I
don't know your perspective,
109
00:04:36,850 --> 00:04:39,700
but I often find talking
with legislators, the support
110
00:04:39,700 --> 00:04:42,250
that goes directly to students
is far more popular than the
111
00:04:42,250 --> 00:04:45,640
support that goes to
institutions because taxpayers
112
00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:47,050
and families see that as well.
113
00:04:47,050 --> 00:04:50,500
That's helping my student go
to college, not really thinking
114
00:04:50,500 --> 00:04:52,960
that the money going to the
college is also gonna benefit
115
00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,900
them as well, but so they
focus more on that one.
116
00:04:55,900 --> 00:04:58,195
So I don't know if you've
seen some of that. Yeah,
117
00:04:58,195 --> 00:04:59,410
- I I wrote a paper about that.
118
00:04:59,410 --> 00:05:00,940
Yeah, it's called Great, one
119
00:05:00,940 --> 00:05:02,800
of the Weakest Budget
Players in the States,
120
00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:06,430
and it's about how state policy
makers make decisions about
121
00:05:06,430 --> 00:05:07,630
funding higher education.
122
00:05:07,630 --> 00:05:10,150
One of our key findings, I wrote the paper
123
00:05:10,150 --> 00:05:12,850
with two colleagues, Meredith
Billings and Paul Rubin,
124
00:05:12,850 --> 00:05:14,770
and one of our key
findings is exactly that,
125
00:05:14,770 --> 00:05:17,950
that there's much more
political support for funding
126
00:05:17,950 --> 00:05:19,210
that goes directly to students
127
00:05:19,210 --> 00:05:21,820
and for funding that goes to institutions.
128
00:05:21,820 --> 00:05:24,250
- Well, I will definitely be
reading that and well, and,
129
00:05:24,250 --> 00:05:25,690
and I will say one of the other things
130
00:05:25,690 --> 00:05:27,970
that we should point out to
our audience, again, this is
131
00:05:27,970 --> 00:05:29,980
where Illinois is different.
132
00:05:29,980 --> 00:05:31,930
During that 12 year
period, you talked about
133
00:05:31,930 --> 00:05:35,500
with funding going up, we
actually had a budget impasse
134
00:05:35,500 --> 00:05:37,720
for a year and a half where
we got no funding from the
135
00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:39,550
state, which many of our institutions are
136
00:05:39,550 --> 00:05:40,630
still recovering from.
137
00:05:40,630 --> 00:05:43,660
So we were kind of an
outlier during that period
138
00:05:43,660 --> 00:05:46,630
of time when funding was
going up at, at other places
139
00:05:46,630 --> 00:05:47,860
and places that I was at.
140
00:05:47,860 --> 00:05:52,210
So I can see, you know,
several potential downsides
141
00:05:52,210 --> 00:05:54,580
to universities relying
so much on state support.
142
00:05:54,580 --> 00:05:55,960
And one of those is
143
00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,030
that there's wide variations
in the levels of support
144
00:05:59,030 --> 00:06:01,820
provided, and it's fluctuates from
145
00:06:01,820 --> 00:06:03,800
from year to year as well.
146
00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:05,840
Can you share with the audience
how much variance you've
147
00:06:05,840 --> 00:06:07,315
seen across states and,
148
00:06:07,315 --> 00:06:08,420
and what impact that's had on
149
00:06:08,420 --> 00:06:09,830
institutions in different states?
150
00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:13,850
- Absolutely. I, so I think
you just gave a really great
151
00:06:13,850 --> 00:06:17,300
example of that variance
in thinking about Illinois
152
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and Illinois having a very
different pattern from
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what we observe when we
look at national averages.
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But in fact, there is wide
variance in levels of support.
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And I would say there's variance
both across space and time.
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So across states there's
significant variability in state
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funding for higher education institutions.
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So on one hand you have
states like New Hampshire
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or Vermont that fund higher
education institutions at
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around $4,500 per student.
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And on the other end you
have states like New Mexico
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that's really on the high end with
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around $23,000 per student.
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So there's significant
variability across the states.
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And then as we've been talking
about a little bit already
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over time, there's also
significant volatility and,
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and variability in funding.
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And I'll just e echo what you
mentioned earlier on this idea
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that higher education serves as
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what we call the balance wheel for state.
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So it serves as the balance
wheel of, of state budgets
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as a budget category.
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And that's because it's usually
used to balance the budget
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during economic downturns
because there are no federal
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or constitutional mandates
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that states must fund higher
education the way there are
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for, for example, K 12 or Medicaid.
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And there's some research that suggests
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that Medicaid spending is
actually the single biggest
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contributor to declines in
higher education spending, which,
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- Which - Is a little bit
concerning for what we're,
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what we're about to see
with, with the massive gaps
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that will be left for states
to fill when it comes to,
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to Medicaid funding.
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So this leads to substantial
declines in funding
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for higher ed during economic downturns.
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And it's important to note
too, that at the same time,
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during economic downturns,
enrollments tend to increase.
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So there's even greater or
financial challenges, right,
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for higher education institutions.
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But the flip side of that
is with some exceptions,
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that usually when the economy is healthy,
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when state budgets are
healthy, more specifically,
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that higher education enjoys
a lot of support on average.
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Of course, there are
exceptions, but generally
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speaking, that's what we see.
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So overall, again, significant volatility
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and a lack of stability
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or predictability for higher
education institutions.
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So what does this mean for
institutions and for students?
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And you, you alluded to this
already, president Mahony,
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but when state support drops,
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the costs are shifted
onto students in the form
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of tuition increases.
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And we do have some good
rigorous research on this.
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So there's one causal study by
Doug Weber that suggests that
207
00:08:44,870 --> 00:08:47,450
for every a thousand dollars
decrease in state funding per
208
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student, there's roughly a
$300 increase in, in tuition
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and fee pricing.
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So that's like the, what
they call the pass rate.
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So according to SHEEO in 1980,
the student share of revenues
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for public higher ed
institutions was about 20%.
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And in 2025,
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and the most recent data
available, that share
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of higher education revenues
216
00:09:10,830 --> 00:09:15,030
that comes from students has
nearly doubled from roughly 20%
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00:09:15,030 --> 00:09:16,560
to 38.4%.
218
00:09:16,560 --> 00:09:20,070
So, so we really do see
this shift in costs from,
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from the state onto students.
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So what that means, on average, 38%
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of revenues at public
institutions come from tuition
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and fees now compared to 20% in, in 1980.
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So there's that shift in cost to students,
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but also there are
significant implications
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for student success when
state funding declines.
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And we also have good research on this.
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So research by bound
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and colleagues show that
resources per student explain
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of substantial portion of the changes
230
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that we've seen in
completion rates over time.
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And there's other research by monez
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and colleagues that shows
very clearly that spending
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for higher education leads
234
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to increases in both college
enrollment and degree awards.
235
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So there, there really are
these clear causal connections
236
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between state spending on higher education
237
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and actual student outcomes,
not just enrollment,
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but also degrees or other
credentials awarded.
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- Yeah, and, and I will
say it's one of the things
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as I'm always obviously
as a president advocating
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for funding for higher education,
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and I always feel like I'm
asking you for something,
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but I also know that there'll
be the benefits there.
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Right? I I'm not asking you just
245
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because, you know, I, I want it, it's
246
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because we think we can
actually do a better job with
247
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that funding and, and I
feel good about making those
248
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asks for that reason.
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I will say too, you talked
about the variability on
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unpredictability
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and in my previous state
when I was a president,
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they wanted us to put
together a three year plan.
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So I was like, well, can you tell us
254
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what the appropriations will
be for the next three years?
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Because without that, I can't really
256
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develop a three year plan.
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So we're almost always, we, we try
258
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to do long range planning, but it, a lot
259
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of it ends up being year to year
260
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because we we're missing
one of the key variables
261
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to, to do any of that planning.
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- Absolutely.
- You know,
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and another way that states vary
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and how to distribute money
is not just in the amount,
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but in the funding formulas.
266
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And can you discuss some of
the models that exist and,
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and maybe the philosophies behind them?
268
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- Sure. So there,
269
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the most extreme cases are those states
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that don't have a funding model.
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And there are certainly examples of that.
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So when states don't have
a funding model, they,
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they use a base plus type of approach.
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So they just make decisions based on prior
275
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year's funding levels.
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So that might be kind of an
across the board increase,
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like you mentioned earlier,
or just minor adjustments.
278
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Sometimes it's inflation
related adjustments
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or other kinds of
adjustments based on prior
280
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year funding levels.
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In other, in other states
they don't even do that.
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It's, it's more just based
on political influence
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and there's always political influence.
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That's what a lot of my research
on higher ed funding has
285
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focused on is the politics
of higher education funding.
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But, but those are sort of the, the more
287
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what I call extreme cases,
288
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but they're not, they're not too uncommon
289
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where there isn't actually a formula
290
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that states use to fund.
291
00:12:08,860 --> 00:12:12,010
There're public higher education
institutions, other states
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that do use models
293
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or formulas, some of them tie
their funding to some measure
294
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of enrollment or volume.
295
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So the volume could be contact hours,
296
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it could be credit hours.
297
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So institutions with more
students get more funding
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commensurate with their
size, roughly speaking.
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Others which have become more
popular in recent decades tie
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funding to outcomes.
301
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So these are predetermined metrics such
302
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as transfer rates, completion
rates, the students
303
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who complete 15 credit
hours, 30 credit hours,
304
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or these kind of progression metrics.
305
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So these funding models
that tie state level funding
306
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to these outcome metrics
have become more popular
307
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in recent decades.
308
00:12:53,830 --> 00:12:57,520
But truly a lot of states use
a combination, a combination
309
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of base plus enrollment
based and outcomes funding.
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And I'll just say here, another source,
311
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some good data on these state
funding models come from a
312
00:13:05,890 --> 00:13:07,300
group called Informed States.
313
00:13:07,300 --> 00:13:08,320
So they do a really good job
314
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of tracking the different
funding models across the states.
315
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There is one, one other
point I think it's important
316
00:13:15,070 --> 00:13:16,540
to make here, because a lot
317
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of times we focus on
the models themselves,
318
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but as I, as I mentioned
earlier, there are
319
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so many different ways in
which states fund higher
320
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education institutions.
321
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I mentioned appropriations
and financial aid,
322
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but there are also these other mechanisms.
323
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So funding for special
projects, earmark, earmarks,
324
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and a lot of times we don't
pay attention to those.
325
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And that's actually where the
in inequities get baked in.
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So even when states have funding models
327
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that have been developed thoughtfully,
328
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Inequities can show up in
these other funding methods
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outside the formula.
330
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And even when there's a funding model,
331
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usually in the process of
negotiating what kind of,
332
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what the model will look like in the end,
333
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there are these carve outs.
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So these big chunks of money
335
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that get pulled out of the model.
336
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And sometimes those
make a lot of sense why,
337
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why they would not be
incorporated in the formula,
338
00:14:04,150 --> 00:14:06,130
for example, for medical schools.
339
00:14:06,130 --> 00:14:07,930
In some cases that can be justified
340
00:14:07,930 --> 00:14:10,030
or for, for veterinary schools.
341
00:14:10,030 --> 00:14:12,640
But other times I think
they warrant attention
342
00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:17,290
because pulling out
these significant sources
343
00:14:17,290 --> 00:14:20,620
of funding can actually help
maintain an inequities even
344
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when you have a really thoughtfully
designed funding model.
345
00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,890
- Okay. That's, that's helpful.
And I, it is interesting.
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00:14:26,890 --> 00:14:28,810
I think I've been part of,
347
00:14:28,810 --> 00:14:30,520
when I was in Ohio when
they developed their funding
348
00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:32,020
formula, I was a dean there
349
00:14:32,020 --> 00:14:34,510
and so I kind of watched
that process play out,
350
00:14:34,510 --> 00:14:36,520
but I was also in the state
when you talked about the,
351
00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:38,500
there was no model that was South Carolina
352
00:14:38,500 --> 00:14:39,550
when I was a president there.
353
00:14:39,550 --> 00:14:41,650
It's like we just got
a number, had no idea
354
00:14:41,650 --> 00:14:43,390
where it came from, and it was very
355
00:14:43,390 --> 00:14:45,430
political who got more money.
356
00:14:45,430 --> 00:14:49,420
So the, the university that was in the
357
00:14:49,420 --> 00:14:52,190
who the most powerful legislator
the state lived in their
358
00:14:52,190 --> 00:14:54,320
district always got the most money.
359
00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,050
And so there was clearly a
lot of politics with that one.
360
00:14:57,050 --> 00:14:59,420
- Mm.
- Is there anything you would suggest
361
00:14:59,420 --> 00:15:01,970
or you think are kind of better
models or better approaches?
362
00:15:01,970 --> 00:15:02,970
Mm,
363
00:15:05,030 --> 00:15:07,675
- So I, I would point to
my state actually Texas.
364
00:15:07,675 --> 00:15:12,080
Okay. And, and I, my state
gets a lot of attention for,
365
00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,960
for a lot of bad things
that we're doing, a lot
366
00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:16,430
of the ways in which
we're actually hurting
367
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higher education.
368
00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:19,010
But, but I,
369
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I think Texas is also actually
doing some things, right?
370
00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,860
And in particular, I'm
thinking of a funding model
371
00:15:24,860 --> 00:15:27,770
that was adopted in 2023
372
00:15:27,770 --> 00:15:30,170
for community colleges specifically.
373
00:15:30,170 --> 00:15:32,300
So it's an outcomes based funding model
374
00:15:32,300 --> 00:15:34,520
for the public two year institutions.
375
00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:36,680
The state is currently considering
an outcomes based funding
376
00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:40,250
model for four years, but
currently it's only for two year
377
00:15:40,250 --> 00:15:41,660
for the public two year colleges,
378
00:15:41,660 --> 00:15:43,280
which are our community colleges.
379
00:15:44,210 --> 00:15:46,580
And I, it's really thoughtfully designed.
380
00:15:46,580 --> 00:15:49,070
It was, it was the product of a commission
381
00:15:49,070 --> 00:15:51,950
that brought together some,
some really smart people
382
00:15:51,950 --> 00:15:56,480
and they designed a formula
that incorporated both adequacy
383
00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,190
and equity based components.
384
00:15:58,190 --> 00:16:01,790
And I can say a little
bit more about that and,
385
00:16:01,790 --> 00:16:03,830
and I, something that I think is,
386
00:16:03,830 --> 00:16:07,250
is somewhat unique in
the state is that a lot
387
00:16:07,250 --> 00:16:08,900
of times there's a commission that
388
00:16:08,900 --> 00:16:10,520
that develops funding models,
389
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,380
but then the state doesn't
actually take up the
390
00:16:12,380 --> 00:16:15,020
recommendations or they
significantly modify them.
391
00:16:15,950 --> 00:16:18,140
I, I just completed a policy scan of
392
00:16:18,140 --> 00:16:20,960
how states fund community colleges and,
393
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,300
and we found just so many discrepancies
394
00:16:23,300 --> 00:16:24,440
between what's in the law
395
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:26,600
and then what actually gets
implemented in practice.
396
00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:28,700
And, and I think there's
even another layer to that
397
00:16:28,700 --> 00:16:30,680
where there's the commission,
then there's the law,
398
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:32,600
then there's the actual
funding distribution.
399
00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:34,610
So there can be a gap
between those three phases.
400
00:16:34,610 --> 00:16:37,670
But in Texas so far
there's been alignment with
401
00:16:37,670 --> 00:16:38,900
what the commission recommended,
402
00:16:38,900 --> 00:16:41,450
what the state put into
law, which is very close
403
00:16:41,450 --> 00:16:42,800
to the commission's recommendation,
404
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,950
and then what they're
actually doing in, in terms
405
00:16:45,950 --> 00:16:47,330
of distributing funds based on
406
00:16:47,330 --> 00:16:48,440
the model that was recommended.
407
00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:52,490
And there are a few features I
think, that make Texas unique
408
00:16:52,490 --> 00:16:56,090
that, and not unique in the
sense that no one has done this
409
00:16:56,090 --> 00:16:59,060
before, but I just think
together they, they,
410
00:16:59,060 --> 00:17:00,140
they make a lot of sense and,
411
00:17:00,140 --> 00:17:05,030
and they, it it is just very,
very thoughtful in my view.
412
00:17:05,030 --> 00:17:07,520
So first it, the funding model here
413
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:11,540
for community colleges adds
weights to focus populations,
414
00:17:11,540 --> 00:17:14,120
but those weights are
based on cost studies.
415
00:17:14,120 --> 00:17:18,320
So they contracted with
some researchers and they,
416
00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:20,360
and they try to quantify
417
00:17:20,360 --> 00:17:22,250
how much additional
funding would be needed
418
00:17:22,250 --> 00:17:25,280
for certain populations to
achieve certain desired outcomes.
419
00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:27,380
So that's sort of the adequacy based piece
420
00:17:27,380 --> 00:17:29,600
that's incorporated in the model here.
421
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,320
And the focus populations
here in Texas are economically
422
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,440
disadvantaged students,
academically disadvantaged students
423
00:17:37,820 --> 00:17:39,980
and student and adult learners.
424
00:17:39,980 --> 00:17:44,450
Those are the three groups. The
formula here also has a type
425
00:17:44,450 --> 00:17:48,440
of equalization component
similar to K 12 equalization aid.
426
00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,090
So here, under this new model,
427
00:17:51,090 --> 00:17:54,990
community colleges get extra
funding if their local tax
428
00:17:54,990 --> 00:17:58,050
and tuition rev fee revenue is less than
429
00:17:58,050 --> 00:17:59,100
what the college needs for
430
00:17:59,100 --> 00:18:01,110
what they call basic
instruction and operation.
431
00:18:01,110 --> 00:18:04,650
So what it does is it takes
into account the various sources
432
00:18:04,650 --> 00:18:06,720
of revenue that colleges have access to.
433
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,540
So it acknowledges that
some colleges have access
434
00:18:09,540 --> 00:18:12,420
to more revenue than others
and it, it accounts for that
435
00:18:12,420 --> 00:18:15,900
and makes up for that gap that
remains in college's ability
436
00:18:15,900 --> 00:18:17,940
to raise revenue because
they're community colleges,
437
00:18:17,940 --> 00:18:20,130
in this case they're
looking at local tax revenue
438
00:18:20,130 --> 00:18:22,110
and tuition and fee revenue.
439
00:18:22,110 --> 00:18:23,640
But in the four year sector, there's also
440
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:25,830
so much variability in the revenue sources
441
00:18:25,830 --> 00:18:27,720
that institutions have access to.
442
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:28,770
And I think something that,
443
00:18:28,770 --> 00:18:31,110
that is really nice about
Texas is that they account for
444
00:18:31,110 --> 00:18:32,970
that in their state funding model
445
00:18:34,020 --> 00:18:36,240
and they also include an
adjustment for smaller colleges
446
00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:38,070
to account for dis economies of scale.
447
00:18:38,070 --> 00:18:40,530
So just acknowledging that
smaller colleges also have those
448
00:18:40,530 --> 00:18:43,410
fixed costs regardless of
their enrollment levels.
449
00:18:44,610 --> 00:18:47,010
- Yeah. A few things I'll
pick up on what you said.
450
00:18:47,010 --> 00:18:50,310
I think it, if I'm hearing you
correctly, some of the things
451
00:18:50,310 --> 00:18:52,290
that you think went well with
Texas is you brought together
452
00:18:52,290 --> 00:18:53,670
a group of experts.
453
00:18:53,670 --> 00:18:57,390
They developed a formula
that had some good concepts
454
00:18:57,390 --> 00:18:59,760
behind it and good values behind it.
455
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:02,340
And then they actually
implemented what they recommended
456
00:19:02,340 --> 00:19:04,050
as opposed to ignoring those experts,
457
00:19:04,050 --> 00:19:05,370
which I think is, is interesting.
458
00:19:05,370 --> 00:19:09,390
I will say Ohio, we got to
the point of implementation
459
00:19:09,390 --> 00:19:11,580
and then it, one university wasn't happy
460
00:19:11,580 --> 00:19:13,230
with their distribution,
so we threw it out
461
00:19:13,230 --> 00:19:14,610
and started over again.
462
00:19:14,610 --> 00:19:16,800
That would not be the
model I would recommend
463
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:18,000
or the approach I would recommend.
464
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:19,560
So that, that's really helpful.
465
00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:21,840
And last question, you know,
we've shared a little bit
466
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:23,550
with you about the Illinois model.
467
00:19:23,550 --> 00:19:27,180
Any things that you can say about that
468
00:19:27,180 --> 00:19:28,770
or what, what you're seeing in that
469
00:19:28,770 --> 00:19:30,840
that is either interesting or,
470
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:32,490
or you would've questions about?
471
00:19:32,490 --> 00:19:35,880
- Mm, so I
472
00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:42,120
I, what struck me about the
proposed model in Illinois is
473
00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:45,990
that it has both an adequacy
focus and an equity focus.
474
00:19:47,310 --> 00:19:49,680
So just to, to provide
sort of the definitions
475
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:51,900
that I'm working with here.
476
00:19:51,900 --> 00:19:54,900
Funding adequacy generally
focus on whether students
477
00:19:54,900 --> 00:19:58,650
or institutions receive a
certain level of funding required
478
00:19:58,650 --> 00:20:01,350
to reach some specified outcome or goal.
479
00:20:01,350 --> 00:20:03,810
And usually that's determined by policy
480
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:06,960
in the higher ed sector,
481
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,620
but you can have adequacy
without equity, right?
482
00:20:09,620 --> 00:20:11,670
So you can have a minimum
level of funding achieved
483
00:20:11,670 --> 00:20:12,720
for all colleges, but it,
484
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,330
but there could be wide
disparities across the colleges
485
00:20:15,330 --> 00:20:16,650
and that's where equity comes in.
486
00:20:16,650 --> 00:20:19,800
So funding equity focuses
more on the distribution
487
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,320
of resources across institutions
488
00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:26,100
and how resources vary from
institution to institution.
489
00:20:26,100 --> 00:20:29,040
And there's also an additional
component to it, which is
490
00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,160
how funding levels for
institutions correlate
491
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:33,780
with student demographics, right?
492
00:20:33,780 --> 00:20:36,450
So student institutions
that serve higher shares
493
00:20:36,450 --> 00:20:38,730
of Pell grant recipients for
example, you would want those
494
00:20:38,730 --> 00:20:40,950
to have more funding under a,
495
00:20:40,950 --> 00:20:43,200
what we call a vertical equity lens.
496
00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:47,860
And I view the proposed funding
model as incorporating both
497
00:20:47,860 --> 00:20:49,810
of those, both of those elements.
498
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,800
And what I've seen is that
most state fund first,
499
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:55,090
some states don't have funding models.
500
00:20:55,090 --> 00:20:57,910
The ones that do Don't account for equity
501
00:20:57,910 --> 00:20:59,980
or adequacy, a lot of them don't.
502
00:21:00,970 --> 00:21:04,780
Instead many of them now
focus on performance funding
503
00:21:04,780 --> 00:21:07,750
or prior year funding levels.
504
00:21:07,750 --> 00:21:10,930
Some states have either
an equity component
505
00:21:10,930 --> 00:21:12,130
or an adequacy component.
506
00:21:12,130 --> 00:21:14,980
But what really strikes me
about Illinois's model is that
507
00:21:14,980 --> 00:21:16,990
as I see it, it's really
incorporating both
508
00:21:16,990 --> 00:21:18,910
adequacy and equity.
509
00:21:18,910 --> 00:21:20,800
- Okay, that's really helpful.
Well Denisa, we've thank you
510
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,040
so much for joining us
and giving us your insight
511
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:25,270
and expertise on this.
512
00:21:25,270 --> 00:21:27,820
And we're gonna now
turn it to Robin Stains,
513
00:21:27,820 --> 00:21:29,860
who is leads Advanced Illinois,
514
00:21:30,790 --> 00:21:32,890
a well-respected organization
here that believes
515
00:21:32,890 --> 00:21:35,050
that all students deserve equitable access
516
00:21:35,050 --> 00:21:36,820
to high quality education.
517
00:21:36,820 --> 00:21:39,550
I served on the commission
with her with Robin
518
00:21:39,550 --> 00:21:40,840
and we were charged
519
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,230
with developing the new funding
formula here in Illinois.
520
00:21:44,230 --> 00:21:45,610
So Robin, start with
521
00:21:45,610 --> 00:21:47,500
how did you become involved
in the commission Tar
522
00:21:47,500 --> 00:21:48,700
Commissioners, what kind
523
00:21:48,700 --> 00:21:50,860
of prior experience you had before this?
524
00:21:50,860 --> 00:21:52,360
- Delighted to be here and Denisa,
525
00:21:52,360 --> 00:21:53,680
it was really such a pleasure to,
526
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,260
to listen in on the first
part of the conversation.
527
00:21:57,130 --> 00:21:58,990
So you should just dive
in whatever you want to.
528
00:21:58,990 --> 00:22:03,190
But the way I got involved,
Dan, as I think you know, is
529
00:22:03,190 --> 00:22:06,070
that we advance Illinois
works on educational issues
530
00:22:06,070 --> 00:22:07,090
and systemic
531
00:22:07,090 --> 00:22:08,620
and structural issues from early childhood
532
00:22:08,620 --> 00:22:10,210
through higher education.
533
00:22:10,210 --> 00:22:12,970
We had spent many years
534
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,840
working on the funding
formula that we used
535
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:18,040
for our K 12 schools.
536
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,040
And because the way we did
that was deeply inequitable
537
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:22,630
and was leading to very
inequitable outcomes
538
00:22:22,630 --> 00:22:25,180
and we came up with the
evidence-based formula,
539
00:22:25,180 --> 00:22:27,520
took us a few years to
develop it, we got it passed,
540
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,940
it's been in place now
for going on 10 years.
541
00:22:30,940 --> 00:22:32,950
We're gonna celebrate the
10th anniversary next year.
542
00:22:32,950 --> 00:22:36,220
And it has increased the overall.
543
00:22:36,220 --> 00:22:39,160
And part of it was to
understand what every,
544
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,100
the premise was, what should
every district be spending
545
00:22:42,100 --> 00:22:44,590
understanding that the districts
have different demographics
546
00:22:44,590 --> 00:22:47,920
and different resources
available to them in the form
547
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:49,150
of property taxes.
548
00:22:49,150 --> 00:22:51,550
And so that the state should
really be directing dollars
549
00:22:51,550 --> 00:22:53,830
most heavily to the districts
550
00:22:53,830 --> 00:22:55,840
that have had the highest
need in the fewest resources.
551
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:57,430
And that's exactly what the formula did.
552
00:22:57,430 --> 00:22:58,900
We've been doing that for 10 years.
553
00:22:58,900 --> 00:23:03,550
We are watching in real time gaps
554
00:23:03,550 --> 00:23:07,540
across districts go down 2.4
billion new dollars are flowing
555
00:23:07,540 --> 00:23:09,970
every year to schools
and it's following need.
556
00:23:09,970 --> 00:23:13,780
So we got involved in
this because that was huge
557
00:23:13,780 --> 00:23:17,800
and it was, I think we and legislators
558
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:19,960
and others said, you know,
that's such powerful if you get
559
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,320
the formula right, so much else follows.
560
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,980
Is there work to be done in
other areas in early childhood
561
00:23:26,980 --> 00:23:28,180
in higher education?
562
00:23:28,180 --> 00:23:30,100
And for all the reasons
that Denisa suspect,
563
00:23:30,100 --> 00:23:32,290
we don't have a formula,
we're calling it base plus
564
00:23:32,290 --> 00:23:34,540
that is not a formula that is
really just saying we're just
565
00:23:34,540 --> 00:23:36,850
gonna spread the peanut butter
and if there were inequities
566
00:23:36,850 --> 00:23:37,780
coming in, there's gonna be
567
00:23:37,780 --> 00:23:38,980
inequities at the back end of that.
568
00:23:38,980 --> 00:23:40,570
And how much peanut butter, it's gonna be
569
00:23:40,570 --> 00:23:41,650
that balance wheel problem.
570
00:23:41,650 --> 00:23:43,810
It's, it's more, if we've got
more, it's less if we don't,
571
00:23:43,810 --> 00:23:46,610
it's not really pegged any priorities.
572
00:23:46,610 --> 00:23:48,950
Not around student groups,
not around state objectives
573
00:23:48,950 --> 00:23:51,080
and not even around
institutional missions.
574
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:55,070
And so when in about 2020 we and partners
575
00:23:55,070 --> 00:23:58,550
and legislators were having
a variety of conversations
576
00:23:58,550 --> 00:24:01,790
and you know, exacerbated
by COVID, exacerbated
577
00:24:01,790 --> 00:24:04,790
by George Floyd that it is time for us
578
00:24:04,790 --> 00:24:06,200
to do significantly better.
579
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,030
We are not adequate. We are not equitable.
580
00:24:08,030 --> 00:24:10,220
And more importantly, the
final piece that you spoke
581
00:24:10,220 --> 00:24:13,160
to Denisa, and I know you
live Dan, is we're not,
582
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,800
we're not predictable and and sustainable.
583
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,200
And so institutions do
not know year to year
584
00:24:19,130 --> 00:24:20,510
what they're going to have to work with.
585
00:24:20,510 --> 00:24:23,120
I don't know how you run a
multimillion dollar in the case
586
00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:24,230
sometimes it's hundreds of millions
587
00:24:24,230 --> 00:24:26,480
of dollar organization without that.
588
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,340
And that was the other
benefit in the K 12 is
589
00:24:28,340 --> 00:24:30,440
that there was predictability
590
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,300
that districts the first
time had a sense of
591
00:24:32,300 --> 00:24:34,880
what was coming, what they could count on
592
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:35,990
and what the growth was gonna be.
593
00:24:35,990 --> 00:24:38,960
So the idea was could we
take that, it would have
594
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,780
to be applied differently
obviously in higher education
595
00:24:41,780 --> 00:24:45,410
and could we do better in
four years, legislators agreed
596
00:24:45,410 --> 00:24:46,910
and they called for a commission
597
00:24:46,910 --> 00:24:48,710
and that's when you and I met.
598
00:24:50,805 --> 00:24:54,290
- Yeah. And the focus of
the commission really was on
599
00:24:54,290 --> 00:24:57,140
that kind of adequate and
equitable funding formula
600
00:24:57,140 --> 00:24:58,340
and that's what we were charged
601
00:24:58,340 --> 00:25:01,130
to do clearly from the
beginning, similar to
602
00:25:01,130 --> 00:25:02,630
what you had done in K 12,
603
00:25:02,630 --> 00:25:05,120
but it's not exactly the same model
604
00:25:05,120 --> 00:25:06,950
as you developed in K 12.
605
00:25:06,950 --> 00:25:08,750
And so can you talk a little
bit about the differences
606
00:25:08,750 --> 00:25:11,300
between higher education
and K 12 in your mind
607
00:25:11,300 --> 00:25:13,460
and how some of those
differences played out
608
00:25:13,460 --> 00:25:14,540
in developing this model?
609
00:25:15,530 --> 00:25:16,670
- I mean, first of all, I wanna start
610
00:25:16,670 --> 00:25:18,680
with similarities like the, the the,
611
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,080
there are some really important
similarities that starting
612
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,930
with the premise of, and we, you know,
613
00:25:23,930 --> 00:25:25,220
you maybe we're gonna
talk about this later,
614
00:25:25,220 --> 00:25:26,630
but I gotta talk about
it first if that's okay.
615
00:25:26,630 --> 00:25:30,290
I'm just gonna, you know,
go rogue, which is we, one
616
00:25:30,290 --> 00:25:32,420
of the first things the commission
did was look to say like
617
00:25:32,420 --> 00:25:33,500
what have other states done
618
00:25:33,500 --> 00:25:35,930
and performance based funding was,
619
00:25:35,930 --> 00:25:38,570
has really been a trend
over the last 15, 20 years,
620
00:25:38,570 --> 00:25:40,790
but it's now been around long
enough that we can look at it
621
00:25:40,790 --> 00:25:43,340
and see how it's working
622
00:25:43,340 --> 00:25:45,680
and it leads to a lot of
unintended consequences.
623
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,240
People game it, it can tend
624
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,470
to reward you if you are
bringing in more affluent or
625
00:25:51,470 --> 00:25:54,590
or better academically prepared students.
626
00:25:54,590 --> 00:25:56,570
Even what what you
really want is to sup is
627
00:25:56,570 --> 00:25:58,370
to provide more support institutions
628
00:25:58,370 --> 00:25:59,630
that maybe have students
629
00:25:59,630 --> 00:26:01,220
that are gonna need
that additional support.
630
00:26:01,220 --> 00:26:03,800
And so you end up with some
perverse, so we were seeing
631
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:05,210
that a number of those
states were going back
632
00:26:05,210 --> 00:26:07,280
to the drawing board and
633
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,980
what we could draw on from
K 12 is K 12 looked at it
634
00:26:09,980 --> 00:26:12,920
and said, what do districts
need in order to do the job
635
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:14,270
that we're asking to do?
636
00:26:14,270 --> 00:26:15,920
What are the outcomes
that we want them to get?
637
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:17,150
Sort of to Denisa's point.
638
00:26:17,150 --> 00:26:19,010
And we sort of anchored on that
639
00:26:19,010 --> 00:26:20,990
and what does it cost to do that?
640
00:26:20,990 --> 00:26:23,630
And that's gonna be what
made it more complicated
641
00:26:23,630 --> 00:26:26,060
among other things in higher ed is that
642
00:26:26,060 --> 00:26:27,440
not all institutions are the same.
643
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,570
You've got research one universities,
644
00:26:29,570 --> 00:26:32,360
you've got research two,
you've got research three
645
00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:33,590
students travel, right?
646
00:26:33,590 --> 00:26:35,660
This isn't, it's harder
to predict year over year
647
00:26:35,660 --> 00:26:36,920
what students are you gonna have.
648
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,100
You've got more, there
are more things you can do
649
00:26:40,100 --> 00:26:42,560
to attract students.
650
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,000
You've gotta deal with the tuition factor.
651
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,660
You know, poverty taxes are a
lot more stable than tuition
652
00:26:48,660 --> 00:26:50,550
and a lot, you know, they are reactive
653
00:26:50,550 --> 00:26:52,290
to what's happening in state funding
654
00:26:52,290 --> 00:26:53,430
but in a very different way.
655
00:26:53,430 --> 00:26:55,770
So there's just dramatically
different dynamics
656
00:26:55,770 --> 00:26:57,060
that you have to understand
657
00:26:57,060 --> 00:27:01,110
and bring into bear,
including the costing out.
658
00:27:01,110 --> 00:27:02,880
And so Denisa said, so
what hearsay, we had
659
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,370
to do the same thing you
have to cost out, you know,
660
00:27:05,370 --> 00:27:07,200
you've got engineering,
we're not thinking so much
661
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:08,940
as does it cost different
to teach math than it does
662
00:27:08,940 --> 00:27:10,140
English than it does history.
663
00:27:10,140 --> 00:27:12,330
We didn't have to know that. But you do,
664
00:27:12,330 --> 00:27:14,340
an engineering program is
gonna cost something different
665
00:27:14,340 --> 00:27:16,800
than a, than an English program.
666
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:18,000
Medical schools
667
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,870
and all mindful effect to
Denisa's point, anything
668
00:27:21,870 --> 00:27:23,760
that you pull outta the
formula now you've just,
669
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:25,620
you've just allowed inequity
to come right back in.
670
00:27:25,620 --> 00:27:28,200
So you want as much as
possible to be in there,
671
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,590
which means you really
gotta tackle a lot of,
672
00:27:31,590 --> 00:27:33,060
you've gotta do a lot of costing
673
00:27:33,060 --> 00:27:34,890
and analytics that we are not used
674
00:27:34,890 --> 00:27:36,840
to doing in the higher education space.
675
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,770
But the an but knowing that
you could think about in terms
676
00:27:40,770 --> 00:27:42,210
of what should we be spending
677
00:27:42,210 --> 00:27:44,370
to get the outcomes we want
rather than we're only gonna
678
00:27:44,370 --> 00:27:45,990
give you money if you
already get the outcomes.
679
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,130
And that was a real, that was a real,
680
00:27:50,130 --> 00:27:51,360
we looked at the first we
681
00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:52,620
said that's probably not gonna work.
682
00:27:52,620 --> 00:27:53,730
Let's at least explore this
683
00:27:53,730 --> 00:27:55,380
and see if there's a,
there there and there was,
684
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,620
- Yeah, no there's some good points and
685
00:27:58,620 --> 00:27:59,730
and I think it was interesting even
686
00:27:59,730 --> 00:28:02,060
as you were talking about, you know,
687
00:28:02,060 --> 00:28:03,420
we did look at the performance base
688
00:28:03,420 --> 00:28:04,560
and I think my concern
689
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,540
with it having looked
at at other places was
690
00:28:06,540 --> 00:28:08,100
that the rich tended to get richer
691
00:28:08,100 --> 00:28:10,020
and the institutions that
were serving the more
692
00:28:10,020 --> 00:28:13,260
socioeconomically diverse
populations got poor.
693
00:28:13,260 --> 00:28:14,790
And you, but you also talked about one
694
00:28:14,790 --> 00:28:16,050
of the differences we see
695
00:28:16,050 --> 00:28:18,990
with higher ed versus K 12 is
not only is our state funding
696
00:28:18,990 --> 00:28:22,350
unpredictable, but our
tuition dollar funding is
697
00:28:22,350 --> 00:28:26,250
unpredictable because enrollment
can go up or down by 10%
698
00:28:26,250 --> 00:28:29,610
or more in a year, which
can cause a dramatic change
699
00:28:29,610 --> 00:28:31,830
for an institution which
is less likely to happen
700
00:28:31,830 --> 00:28:34,620
with say property tax
revenue and much less and,
701
00:28:34,620 --> 00:28:35,910
and you're much more likely to know
702
00:28:35,910 --> 00:28:38,760
how many eighth graders you
have seven or eight years before
703
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:40,530
because you can see them
going through the system.
704
00:28:40,530 --> 00:28:41,910
It may vary some in a community
705
00:28:41,910 --> 00:28:45,270
but it's less likely to vary
The way ours is is much more
706
00:28:45,270 --> 00:28:47,790
so, and and I know some of
the performance funding,
707
00:28:47,790 --> 00:28:49,410
it doesn't have what we have in ours,
708
00:28:49,410 --> 00:28:51,360
which is the hold harmless.
709
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:52,560
So some of those that go through
710
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,080
that decline not only have
a huge decline in tuition
711
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,240
revenue, they have a huge
decline in state funding at the
712
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:58,650
same time which kind
713
00:28:58,650 --> 00:29:00,810
of leads the public institution
into a death spiral.
714
00:29:00,810 --> 00:29:02,640
And we certainly wanted to avoid some
715
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,620
of those issues when we're
developing this model.
716
00:29:06,150 --> 00:29:08,970
- And I will say one of the
things that made K 12 work
717
00:29:08,970 --> 00:29:11,340
that I think we've also
stolen the page is that
718
00:29:11,340 --> 00:29:15,150
the whole harmless for both
for K 12 that we've now sort
719
00:29:15,150 --> 00:29:18,000
of stolen that playbook is
nobody's gonna get any less than
720
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:19,650
they got the prior year.
721
00:29:19,650 --> 00:29:22,380
And so your base funding
minimum continues to grow.
722
00:29:22,380 --> 00:29:24,120
So we give you more money, you know,
723
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,570
year one now year two it's
what you got in year one plus.
724
00:29:27,570 --> 00:29:29,370
So, and we build that in
725
00:29:29,370 --> 00:29:31,200
and that leads to that predictability
726
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,590
that I was talking about that
allows districts to plan.
727
00:29:34,590 --> 00:29:36,360
So by having it, it's
more than just a hold
728
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:37,770
harmless for one year.
729
00:29:37,770 --> 00:29:41,080
We're not going to get
drop you below 2025,
730
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:42,850
whatever you get 26, we're
not gonna drop you below
731
00:29:42,850 --> 00:29:46,180
that when we go to 27 when
you, when we move from 27 to,
732
00:29:46,180 --> 00:29:48,730
and that allows you to
make longer term plans
733
00:29:48,730 --> 00:29:51,340
because maybe then we, maybe
there'll be a year we can't.
734
00:29:51,340 --> 00:29:53,590
And we agree upfront on a 10 year plan of
735
00:29:53,590 --> 00:29:54,880
what those increases are gonna be.
736
00:29:55,870 --> 00:29:58,450
And because everybody understood
737
00:29:58,450 --> 00:30:00,010
that if you're gonna
distribute money equitable,
738
00:30:00,010 --> 00:30:01,060
if you're gonna get new dollars more
739
00:30:01,060 --> 00:30:03,250
and hold harmless, it's all the good,
740
00:30:03,250 --> 00:30:05,440
all the equitable good is
gonna be in the new dollars
741
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:06,970
and how they get distributed.
742
00:30:06,970 --> 00:30:08,650
'cause you're not stealing,
you're not robbing Peter
743
00:30:08,650 --> 00:30:10,570
to pay Paul, I'm not taking
away from university A
744
00:30:10,570 --> 00:30:11,980
to give you university B,
745
00:30:11,980 --> 00:30:15,190
I've gotta put enough new dollars
in to keep everybody whole
746
00:30:15,190 --> 00:30:18,640
and to make sure that I can
catch up the universities.
747
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,320
The other big thing that happened in K 12
748
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,110
that is happening now is for
the first time we know we've
749
00:30:23,110 --> 00:30:26,590
got universities that have
50% of what they need.
750
00:30:26,590 --> 00:30:28,060
We could never calculate that before.
751
00:30:28,060 --> 00:30:30,820
We didn't have an agreed
upon way of understanding
752
00:30:30,820 --> 00:30:32,680
what different campuses
ought to be spending
753
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,880
to meet their missions and
their student demographics.
754
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:41,080
And once you hear that, oh
my god, they've got 50% all
755
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:42,820
of a sudden too that whole
performance conversation like,
756
00:30:42,820 --> 00:30:43,630
well of course they're not
757
00:30:43,630 --> 00:30:44,770
getting all the outcomes we want, right?
758
00:30:44,770 --> 00:30:48,130
They've got 50% of what they need
759
00:30:48,130 --> 00:30:49,720
and yes, we wanna have expectations
760
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:50,860
and there has to be accountability
761
00:30:50,860 --> 00:30:52,330
and we have to care about outcomes.
762
00:30:52,330 --> 00:30:54,310
Nobody wants to let down on that.
763
00:30:54,310 --> 00:30:55,750
But surely that conversation has
764
00:30:55,750 --> 00:30:58,805
to be different when you're at
50% than when you're at 90%.
765
00:30:58,805 --> 00:31:01,990
And, and and we are trying
to take that into account.
766
00:31:01,990 --> 00:31:04,600
- Yeah, absolutely. That's
part of the accountability
767
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:06,790
that we've, we've talked
about within the model.
768
00:31:06,790 --> 00:31:08,920
And can you provide just
a real brief overview of
769
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:10,145
how the model works? I
770
00:31:10,145 --> 00:31:12,520
- Know I I zoomed right by that part.
771
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,975
I've completely ruined the,
I'm so sorry. No, no it's fine.
772
00:31:14,975 --> 00:31:18,940
Okay. The formula works if
your very savvy listeners have
773
00:31:18,940 --> 00:31:21,820
not already figured this
out just implicitly,
774
00:31:21,820 --> 00:31:22,990
you wanna figure out
775
00:31:22,990 --> 00:31:24,850
what should every university be spending.
776
00:31:24,850 --> 00:31:27,160
And that means you've
gotta understand their,
777
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,440
you gotta understand operationally
what their mission is
778
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,450
and the students that they're serving,
779
00:31:31,450 --> 00:31:33,190
how many students do they have?
780
00:31:33,190 --> 00:31:35,260
But also as Denisa was saying,
781
00:31:35,260 --> 00:31:36,970
different students walk in the door.
782
00:31:36,970 --> 00:31:38,800
You can ex with different needs.
783
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,050
And so if you've got students
who are walking in with sort
784
00:31:41,050 --> 00:31:42,700
of wobbly or GPAs,
785
00:31:42,700 --> 00:31:44,530
they're gonna maybe need
more academic support,
786
00:31:44,530 --> 00:31:47,620
we can actually cost out
what that's gonna cost.
787
00:31:47,620 --> 00:31:49,900
We can see what successful
programs look like, what it costs
788
00:31:49,900 --> 00:31:52,570
to put them in place and
we can price that out.
789
00:31:52,570 --> 00:31:54,160
So we can look at every university
790
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:55,600
and say here's your mission here,
791
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:56,740
your here are the features we need
792
00:31:56,740 --> 00:31:57,730
to know are you research one,
793
00:31:57,730 --> 00:31:58,630
do you have an engineering program?
794
00:31:58,630 --> 00:32:01,090
Do you have a medical school?
How many students do you have?
795
00:32:01,090 --> 00:32:03,010
What's the, what are the
demographics of the students?
796
00:32:03,010 --> 00:32:05,410
How many of those students
fall into these categories
797
00:32:05,410 --> 00:32:08,920
where we could expect they need
other support factor that in
798
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:10,060
put all that into an algorithm
799
00:32:10,060 --> 00:32:11,500
that is super savvy, super wonderful.
800
00:32:11,500 --> 00:32:13,060
Denisa would understand all of it, some
801
00:32:13,060 --> 00:32:15,790
of your listeners wouldn't
but just trust us it's there
802
00:32:15,790 --> 00:32:18,370
and we can spit out a number
that changes year to year
803
00:32:18,370 --> 00:32:20,530
because all those dynamics
change every year to year, right?
804
00:32:20,530 --> 00:32:22,540
You may get more engineering
students next year,
805
00:32:22,540 --> 00:32:26,410
you may cut your engineering
program, et cetera, et cetera.
806
00:32:26,410 --> 00:32:28,510
So every year you're recalculating,
807
00:32:28,510 --> 00:32:29,890
you're doing rolling three your averages
808
00:32:29,890 --> 00:32:32,380
and you can identify an adequacy target.
809
00:32:32,380 --> 00:32:35,410
This is the target amount
of funding you ought to have
810
00:32:35,410 --> 00:32:38,860
to do your work well and to
get the outcomes we want.
811
00:32:38,860 --> 00:32:41,870
The next thing you want to
know is, well, okay fine, what,
812
00:32:41,870 --> 00:32:44,210
what resources do you
have to bring to bear?
813
00:32:44,210 --> 00:32:47,300
The big one there is tuition,
which is really tricky
814
00:32:47,300 --> 00:32:49,070
because some people are
paying full tuition,
815
00:32:49,070 --> 00:32:50,150
some people are getting scholarship
816
00:32:50,150 --> 00:32:51,620
support, some people are getting a map.
817
00:32:51,620 --> 00:32:55,100
So we had to figure out a
way of understanding how to,
818
00:32:55,100 --> 00:32:57,500
in a smooth, predictable way,
819
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:00,170
how much money you could reasonably expect
820
00:33:00,170 --> 00:33:01,460
to bring in I tuition revenue.
821
00:33:01,460 --> 00:33:04,010
And we came up with a concept
that the net tuition revenue,
822
00:33:04,010 --> 00:33:07,040
which is a concept people
understand, can we calculate what
823
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,440
that is and can we sort of
freeze it in place for a minute?
824
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,330
'cause we don't wanna,
again, you don't want weird
825
00:33:11,330 --> 00:33:15,170
and quirky incentives so
we can calculate, again,
826
00:33:15,170 --> 00:33:16,370
there's a base for understanding
827
00:33:16,370 --> 00:33:18,680
what the net tuition revenue is at every
828
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:20,390
institution you subtract.
829
00:33:20,390 --> 00:33:21,800
And then there are a few other,
830
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:23,900
there are a few other resource
things that we look at.
831
00:33:23,900 --> 00:33:24,890
You don't need to worry about those grant
832
00:33:24,890 --> 00:33:25,670
dollars, things like that.
833
00:33:25,670 --> 00:33:28,310
We, we wrestled through
all of that some specialty
834
00:33:28,310 --> 00:33:30,920
that these carve outs
that Denisa mentioned
835
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,850
that are directly bare on your
cost, we'll factor those in,
836
00:33:34,850 --> 00:33:36,980
some don't, those are
for different reasons.
837
00:33:36,980 --> 00:33:38,480
We can factor those out. So anyway,
838
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:39,740
we develop a resource profile.
839
00:33:39,740 --> 00:33:42,830
So adequacy target is here, we know
840
00:33:42,830 --> 00:33:44,840
what your resource profile
is, how much you can expect
841
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,170
to bring in the gap between those two is
842
00:33:48,170 --> 00:33:49,340
how underfunded you are.
843
00:33:49,340 --> 00:33:51,560
That's your adequacy gap.
844
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,240
And again, we've got some institutions
845
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,460
with a 12% adequacy gap.
846
00:33:55,460 --> 00:33:59,180
We've got some institutions
with a 50% adequacy gap.
847
00:33:59,180 --> 00:34:00,535
So the, the last piece
848
00:34:00,535 --> 00:34:04,100
and the final piece of the
puzzle is when new dollars come
849
00:34:04,100 --> 00:34:06,440
in and part of the whole grand bargain is
850
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,110
that we should be putting
in $135 million here.
851
00:34:09,110 --> 00:34:11,360
We now what? You know, we
know when the global gap is
852
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:12,620
what all of our universities need.
853
00:34:12,620 --> 00:34:14,510
If we were to be fully funded tomorrow
854
00:34:15,380 --> 00:34:17,330
and we're like, we're not
gonna get there overnight,
855
00:34:17,330 --> 00:34:20,030
so let's map it out, how
much should we be putting in
856
00:34:20,030 --> 00:34:21,800
for each of the next 10 years?
857
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:23,120
The same thing we went through with K 12.
858
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:24,860
People bought it, they,
and they stayed true to it.
859
00:34:26,150 --> 00:34:29,060
We we're asking for 135 million
a year to put us on pace
860
00:34:29,060 --> 00:34:31,430
and let's distribute those dollars.
861
00:34:31,430 --> 00:34:34,250
Not peanut butter across the board,
862
00:34:34,250 --> 00:34:36,080
but based on how far
from adequacy you are.
863
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:37,730
So if you are further from adequacy,
864
00:34:37,730 --> 00:34:40,340
you are gonna get a bigger
share of those new dollars.
865
00:34:40,340 --> 00:34:42,830
As you catch up, your share may decrease.
866
00:34:42,830 --> 00:34:44,540
And those, you know what I mean, it starts
867
00:34:44,540 --> 00:34:46,280
to level out over time.
868
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:47,660
So you're taking equity into account
869
00:34:47,660 --> 00:34:49,760
by looking at your
mission and your students.
870
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:51,680
And those are differential needs
871
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:53,810
and in how we distribute
the dollars to make sure
872
00:34:53,810 --> 00:34:57,380
that we are catching up those
furthest away more quickly
873
00:34:57,380 --> 00:34:59,210
without doing harm to
those that are closer.
874
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,620
- Yeah, no that's a good
explanation of of how we got to it.
875
00:35:03,620 --> 00:35:07,850
And I think again, there's a
lot that's similar with EBF
876
00:35:07,850 --> 00:35:11,120
and how you all did that with
K 12 of doing it over kind
877
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:12,260
of multiple years.
878
00:35:12,260 --> 00:35:14,810
But I think it was important
you talked about the,
879
00:35:14,810 --> 00:35:16,160
what each institution needs.
880
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,740
One of the things we had to
think about was not only is
881
00:35:18,740 --> 00:35:21,465
what's the profile of the
student body look like, but what,
882
00:35:21,465 --> 00:35:22,970
and you mentioned this really is the
883
00:35:22,970 --> 00:35:24,230
different types of students you have.
884
00:35:25,100 --> 00:35:26,360
And I think that's one of the things
885
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,400
that makes this very
different than K 12 is,
886
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,830
as I mentioned more times
than you all wanted to hear,
887
00:35:30,830 --> 00:35:33,980
the cost of educating a medical
school student is vastly
888
00:35:33,980 --> 00:35:36,740
greater than an undergraduate
student in English.
889
00:35:36,740 --> 00:35:39,240
It just, and so we had to
figure out how do you factor
890
00:35:39,240 --> 00:35:41,160
that into the model, which wasn't easy
891
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,380
because I don't think anybody
else had done that before.
892
00:35:43,380 --> 00:35:45,150
So we had to kind of
figure that piece out.
893
00:35:45,150 --> 00:35:47,970
So it did take a lot of work.
894
00:35:47,970 --> 00:35:48,990
Talk just a little bit about
895
00:35:48,990 --> 00:35:52,230
what you think the impact
will be, both on families
896
00:35:52,230 --> 00:35:55,530
but on kind of outcomes
and, and state performance.
897
00:35:57,030 --> 00:36:01,860
- I mean the, if we can do,
if we can pass this formula,
898
00:36:01,860 --> 00:36:03,990
I think what it does is it also
takes some of the politics.
899
00:36:03,990 --> 00:36:05,430
You were, you were
talking in the first part
900
00:36:05,430 --> 00:36:07,710
of the program about the
role that politics plays
901
00:36:07,710 --> 00:36:09,330
and there's, we're not immune
to that here in Illinois.
902
00:36:09,330 --> 00:36:12,150
We are Illinois after
all. And politics does.
903
00:36:13,500 --> 00:36:16,170
And what you wanna do
is, is minimize that.
904
00:36:16,170 --> 00:36:18,630
And when you've got a
formula, you minimize that
905
00:36:18,630 --> 00:36:20,730
and particularly the more that
you can keep in the formula
906
00:36:20,730 --> 00:36:22,170
and not carve out.
907
00:36:22,170 --> 00:36:24,300
So we've worked really
hard not to do carve outs.
908
00:36:24,300 --> 00:36:25,530
We're gonna have to remain vigilant
909
00:36:25,530 --> 00:36:27,990
to make sure we don't have
carve outs in the future.
910
00:36:27,990 --> 00:36:29,880
And so one of the things
that Bill does is it puts an
911
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:31,860
oversight panel in place
to keep minding the store,
912
00:36:31,860 --> 00:36:33,900
minding the store, minding the store.
913
00:36:33,900 --> 00:36:36,570
But if we can do that and if
we stay true to the bargain,
914
00:36:36,570 --> 00:36:39,690
we can, we will start putting in a hundred
915
00:36:39,690 --> 00:36:44,370
to $135 million a year and
catching up institutions.
916
00:36:44,370 --> 00:36:48,960
And I am, I am really impressed
by some of the outcomes
917
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:50,130
that our institutions are getting that are
918
00:36:50,130 --> 00:36:51,720
so deeply underfunded.
919
00:36:51,720 --> 00:36:53,190
And I think what we can expect
920
00:36:53,190 --> 00:36:55,440
to see is one tuition is going
921
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,780
to stabilize and or come down.
922
00:36:57,780 --> 00:37:00,090
We have been just like
Denisa mentioned nationally,
923
00:37:00,090 --> 00:37:02,370
Illinois two has been
putting more money in.
924
00:37:02,370 --> 00:37:03,780
We've been doing about between one
925
00:37:03,780 --> 00:37:05,610
to 3% over the last few years.
926
00:37:05,610 --> 00:37:07,500
And what you see is that our tuition,
927
00:37:07,500 --> 00:37:08,880
which had been climbing,
climbing, climbing
928
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,370
because we were so underfunded,
had in fact started
929
00:37:11,370 --> 00:37:13,740
to stabilize and in a few,
in a few places even started
930
00:37:13,740 --> 00:37:16,290
to come down if you
ought see that continue
931
00:37:16,290 --> 00:37:17,850
and be even more so.
932
00:37:17,850 --> 00:37:20,790
So I think that it will make,
the affordability will be
933
00:37:20,790 --> 00:37:24,150
so much greater as a result of this.
934
00:37:24,150 --> 00:37:25,620
So that's huge in number one.
935
00:37:25,620 --> 00:37:28,290
And I think the single biggest
reason why people either
936
00:37:28,290 --> 00:37:29,460
don't go in the first instance
937
00:37:29,460 --> 00:37:32,490
or stop out is money,
money, money, money, money.
938
00:37:32,490 --> 00:37:35,340
And at a time when I think
universities, we know
939
00:37:35,340 --> 00:37:37,980
that most jobs require
some higher education.
940
00:37:37,980 --> 00:37:40,080
The idea that we're pricing
people out is insane.
941
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:43,350
But you guys are seeing that too.
942
00:37:43,350 --> 00:37:46,590
That, you know, often it's,
so I think number one,
943
00:37:46,590 --> 00:37:49,710
the affordability, we need
more people to be able
944
00:37:49,710 --> 00:37:51,600
to come to universities.
945
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:53,370
It benefits them, it
benefits their communities,
946
00:37:53,370 --> 00:37:54,750
it benefits our state
947
00:37:54,750 --> 00:37:58,020
and we are making it so much
harder than it needs to be.
948
00:37:58,020 --> 00:37:59,160
So I think the biggest is just
949
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:00,510
affordability is gonna come down.
950
00:38:00,510 --> 00:38:02,190
But the second you said
951
00:38:02,190 --> 00:38:03,360
that you're kind of the stepchild, right?
952
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:04,500
Nobody would rather give money
953
00:38:04,500 --> 00:38:07,350
to scholarship dollars
than to institutions.
954
00:38:07,350 --> 00:38:10,140
And I think what people
miss when they do that,
955
00:38:10,140 --> 00:38:11,370
when you give money to the institutions,
956
00:38:11,370 --> 00:38:12,900
it allows 'em to keep the tuition low.
957
00:38:12,900 --> 00:38:14,580
Huge affordability benefit.
958
00:38:14,580 --> 00:38:17,340
But the other thing that allows
them to do is to be ready
959
00:38:17,340 --> 00:38:21,300
to, to serve their students
well if we can get the money
960
00:38:21,300 --> 00:38:24,000
to the universities that we
know have student populations
961
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,460
that need those additional
supports, be they social,
962
00:38:26,460 --> 00:38:27,660
be they academic, be they,
963
00:38:27,660 --> 00:38:31,530
otherwise they will in fact be
able to build those programs.
964
00:38:31,530 --> 00:38:33,990
So not only will it be more
affordable for people to come,
965
00:38:33,990 --> 00:38:36,100
which is half the battle,
but it's only half.
966
00:38:36,100 --> 00:38:38,830
The second is they've
gotta have what they need
967
00:38:38,830 --> 00:38:40,270
to be successful once they're there.
968
00:38:40,270 --> 00:38:42,790
Because if they come and they
don't complete, nobody wins.
969
00:38:42,790 --> 00:38:44,890
So we need both hands clapping.
970
00:38:44,890 --> 00:38:47,830
So I think those are the
two things, more affordable,
971
00:38:47,830 --> 00:38:49,210
better supports when kids get there.
972
00:38:49,210 --> 00:38:52,180
And as a result, more
persistence, more completion.
973
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:55,870
- Yeah, no, I think that's
both the affordability
974
00:38:55,870 --> 00:38:59,050
but also the ability to us for
us to support the students.
975
00:38:59,050 --> 00:39:00,940
I always say, I think in higher education,
976
00:39:00,940 --> 00:39:02,380
I've been doing this for a long time
977
00:39:02,380 --> 00:39:04,330
and been involved with a lot of programs
978
00:39:04,330 --> 00:39:07,870
that have been highly, highly
successful in increasing
979
00:39:07,870 --> 00:39:10,090
student success rates, both retention,
980
00:39:10,090 --> 00:39:12,040
graduation rates and things like that.
981
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,070
But some of them are
very resource intensive
982
00:39:15,070 --> 00:39:16,450
and are very difficult
983
00:39:16,450 --> 00:39:18,610
and I still have to pay the electricity
984
00:39:18,610 --> 00:39:21,100
and I still have to make sure
our building's operational.
985
00:39:21,100 --> 00:39:23,170
And so sometimes there
simply isn't enough money
986
00:39:23,170 --> 00:39:25,120
to invest into all the
programs I would like to,
987
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,520
and I think this would allow
us to expand those programs,
988
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,460
which increases the success
rate, which is great not only
989
00:39:30,460 --> 00:39:31,750
for the families but for the state.
990
00:39:31,750 --> 00:39:34,330
You now have more college graduates and,
991
00:39:34,330 --> 00:39:37,865
and a more successful e economy.
992
00:39:37,865 --> 00:39:40,900
- And, and if I could just
add like the, the, the, the,
993
00:39:40,900 --> 00:39:44,860
the bill also calls for the,
the, the model calls for a lot
994
00:39:44,860 --> 00:39:45,940
of transparency around that.
995
00:39:45,940 --> 00:39:47,260
How are you actually
spending those dollars?
996
00:39:47,260 --> 00:39:49,840
Are you using those dollars in those ways?
997
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:51,460
That is what we're hoping you will do
998
00:39:51,460 --> 00:39:53,170
and that we think will lead
to those better support.
999
00:39:53,170 --> 00:39:55,180
So we, we will be taking close attention
1000
00:39:55,180 --> 00:39:57,160
and if you don't, there
will be consequences.
1001
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,640
But I will also say when federal
esser dollars came during
1002
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,010
COVID, we did pay attention to
1003
00:40:03,010 --> 00:40:04,330
how those dollars were spent up
1004
00:40:04,330 --> 00:40:06,820
and down, you know, early
childhood were higher ed
1005
00:40:06,820 --> 00:40:09,405
and that is in fact how
universities spent them.
1006
00:40:09,405 --> 00:40:11,110
And so I think there is
some mistrust out there.
1007
00:40:11,110 --> 00:40:12,730
Are they just, you know,
are they gonna spend a lot
1008
00:40:12,730 --> 00:40:14,860
of money on administrators
like build swing pools
1009
00:40:14,860 --> 00:40:17,080
and things like what we
saw when we looked at
1010
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,300
that is you guys were really
spending the dollars exactly
1011
00:40:19,300 --> 00:40:21,400
how the public would've
expected and wanted you to.
1012
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,150
So, but also just in
case we'll be monitoring.
1013
00:40:25,150 --> 00:40:26,440
- Yeah, absolutely. And, and I,
1014
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:27,640
but I will say it was interesting,
1015
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,130
we were testifying on
the funding formula and,
1016
00:40:30,130 --> 00:40:31,600
and we did get that question of
1017
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,490
how do we know this will just go to paying
1018
00:40:33,490 --> 00:40:34,960
for administrative salaries
and things like that.
1019
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,450
And then that's like, I always
remember the best predictor
1020
00:40:37,450 --> 00:40:39,220
of future behavior is past behavior.
1021
00:40:39,220 --> 00:40:41,080
And if you looked at what we've
done in the past when we had
1022
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:42,700
additional resources, we tend
1023
00:40:42,700 --> 00:40:44,980
to put it into students
into affordability.
1024
00:40:44,980 --> 00:40:46,780
That's exactly what
we've consistently done.
1025
00:40:46,780 --> 00:40:48,940
So there's no reason to suspect we will,
1026
00:40:48,940 --> 00:40:50,200
we won't do that going forward.
1027
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,000
But to your point, we'll still monitor it.
1028
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:53,410
We'll make sure that we actually are doing
1029
00:40:53,410 --> 00:40:54,910
what we say we we're
going to do. Trust the
1030
00:40:54,910 --> 00:40:55,780
- Verify. Trust
1031
00:40:55,780 --> 00:40:56,780
- The verify.
1032
00:40:56,780 --> 00:40:57,400
Exactly. Yeah. But, but I,
1033
00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,710
but I have faith that,
you know, our university,
1034
00:40:59,710 --> 00:41:01,240
other universities will do the same.
1035
00:41:01,240 --> 00:41:04,120
Anything else you want to add
Robin, before we finish up?
1036
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,400
- No, just that I think this is,
1037
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,100
and Denisa can correct me if I'm wrong,
1038
00:41:09,100 --> 00:41:10,930
I think we would be the first state in the
1039
00:41:10,930 --> 00:41:12,130
nation to do something like this.
1040
00:41:12,130 --> 00:41:13,510
I don't think there is another state
1041
00:41:13,510 --> 00:41:16,600
that has an adequacy based
model quite like this
1042
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:17,890
that is really anchoring first
1043
00:41:17,890 --> 00:41:20,650
and foremost on what should you
be spending then is layering
1044
00:41:20,650 --> 00:41:23,950
equity both at the front end
on the accuracy construction
1045
00:41:23,950 --> 00:41:25,900
and on the distribution side.
1046
00:41:25,900 --> 00:41:28,660
So I think it would be huge
for us to do this, not only
1047
00:41:28,660 --> 00:41:30,940
'cause it's the right thing
for our state and our students
1048
00:41:30,940 --> 00:41:33,830
and our future, but I think
there's a lot to learn
1049
00:41:33,830 --> 00:41:36,230
and I would be really
interested, I mean, my hope is
1050
00:41:36,230 --> 00:41:38,090
that this will, this will catch on
1051
00:41:38,090 --> 00:41:40,100
because I think, I think
we're onto something
1052
00:41:41,210 --> 00:41:43,790
and so, which is luck.
1053
00:41:43,790 --> 00:41:45,980
- Yeah, and I think it's been
part of the exciting part
1054
00:41:45,980 --> 00:41:48,170
of this, but also the challenge is that
1055
00:41:48,170 --> 00:41:51,020
because it is new, no one's done it
1056
00:41:51,020 --> 00:41:52,430
before, you're, you're really creating
1057
00:41:52,430 --> 00:41:53,690
something entirely different.
1058
00:41:53,690 --> 00:41:56,330
And, and that took a lot
of work in several years
1059
00:41:56,330 --> 00:41:58,040
to get us to this point.
1060
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:00,290
But at the same time it can
be transformational not just
1061
00:42:00,290 --> 00:42:02,630
for Illinois, but other
states may follow that model
1062
00:42:02,630 --> 00:42:05,630
and that could help higher
education in general. So can I
1063
00:42:05,630 --> 00:42:06,716
- Then briefly hear, sorry, sorry.
1064
00:42:06,716 --> 00:42:09,560
Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, so
I, i I just want to affirm
1065
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,110
what Robin said, that I
haven't seen anything like this
1066
00:42:12,110 --> 00:42:13,340
anywhere else in the country
1067
00:42:13,340 --> 00:42:16,490
and I I also hope that the
state will actually commit
1068
00:42:16,490 --> 00:42:19,280
to the model, even if there
are implementation challenges,
1069
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,540
I hope that you'll monitor
it, tweak it as needed, but,
1070
00:42:23,540 --> 00:42:26,720
but commit to it is the important part
1071
00:42:26,720 --> 00:42:29,360
because that provides that consistency
1072
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:30,740
and stability that's so important
1073
00:42:30,740 --> 00:42:32,300
for higher education institutions.
1074
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:34,430
- Thank you. And that's what, that's what
1075
00:42:34,430 --> 00:42:35,570
we're hoping for as well.
1076
00:42:35,570 --> 00:42:38,120
So again, I want to thank
both of you for being
1077
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,580
with us today and helping us talk through
1078
00:42:40,580 --> 00:42:43,070
what this funding formula
could look like in Illinois,
1079
00:42:43,070 --> 00:42:44,990
but also kind of how it compares
1080
00:42:44,990 --> 00:42:46,400
to what's going on across the country.
1081
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:48,320
So that's where Denisa's experience and,
1082
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:49,640
and expertise really played in.
1083
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:51,710
So as we wrap up this episode,
1084
00:42:51,710 --> 00:42:54,140
I wanna acknowledge our production
team on the Office hours
1085
00:42:54,140 --> 00:42:58,340
podcast, SIU Edwardsville,
graduate student Solomon Ammond
1086
00:42:58,340 --> 00:43:01,610
and Jason Church at WSIE radio on the SIUE
1087
00:43:01,610 --> 00:43:03,530
campus for their guidance.
1088
00:43:03,530 --> 00:43:05,390
And last but not least, thank you
1089
00:43:05,390 --> 00:43:06,905
to our listeners for tuning in.
1090
00:43:06,905 --> 00:43:07,905
So thank you very much.
1091
00:43:09,650 --> 00:43:11,960
- Be sure to join us
next time on Office Hours
1092
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,390
for further conversation
with the people who work in
1093
00:43:14,390 --> 00:43:16,250
and study higher education.
1094
00:43:16,250 --> 00:43:18,140
Special thanks to Kara Baldus Merman
1095
00:43:18,140 --> 00:43:19,760
and Daniel Merman for the use
1096
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:21,320
of their Composition Writers Block
1097
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:23,270
as the office hours theme song.
1098
00:43:23,270 --> 00:43:25,760
And thank you for
listening to Office Hours
1099
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,160
with SIU System President Dan Mahony.