Bench Talk; The Good Die Young, 284 Winchester

Good Morning Guys, I apologize for not having a wildcat for wildcat Wednesday! 

We are discussing my personal experience with the late 284 Winchester. Amazing case design that was ahead of its time and unfortunately did not grow with mainstream popularity but was resurrected and kept alive by its wild stepchildren 22-284win up to 375-284win. This cartridge is a wildcatters playground, with the only only boundaries being the cartridges case walls and your imagination. Please be safe out there, and have fun planning 2026s hunting season! Please tell us in the comments about your new rifle builds/trips/learned knowledge shooting/reloading/etc! Subscribe and leave a review! thank you for all of the support!

https://youtu.be/SaeAlxIDf7c?si=kn_7x1L0eW5eB9ZC

https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.nz/f53/284-winchester-super-bushpig-build-19738/

https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/18%E2%80%9D-284-win-bolt-gun-info.293910/

https://www.gunsite.co.za/forums/showthread.php?63713-The-quot-Bush-Pig-quot-rifle

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Good morning guys, welcome back to another episode of Bench Talk. I do apologize that this Wednesday morning is not a Wildcat Wednesday. It's just a normal Wednesday, it's a normal hump day for you guys. Um we did have a podcast recorded. Um we had a podcast recorded with Cash Carlson from the Varmitor magazine. Um right, we just had Eric on. Cash is a writer and editor for the Varmitor magazine. And Cash happens to be running a very, very, very fun caliber, um, which I'm a huge fan of, which is the uh kind of the original OG King of 6mm, which is the 6mm 284. Um, I'm sure there are some guys who are gonna say, hey, no, no, no, there's some other OG Wildcat 6mm cartridge. Uh the 7mm, or I guess the 6mm Mach 3, if I remember right. It's either Mach 3 or Mach 4, which is an older version of the 7mm REM mag, neck down to a 6mm. That may beat out the uh 6284 on timelines, but uh, anyways, super cool six millimeter that uh cash has brought back to life, which there are there are definitely guys who are still uh varmiters who are still out there shooting 6284. Um, I mean I've heard of uh uh the uh sorry uh the podcast I'm thinking of right now is the uh I want to say West Texas, but I know that's wrong. The Texas Predator Hunting Podcast, um, TPH podcast. They uh they occasionally talk about uh guys, right, you know, for night hunting, uh, which a lot of those guys do. Um right, they're looking for like max point blank range, max point blank velocity, right? Point and shoot out to a couple hundred yards. And uh the uh main podcast host uh has brought up multiple times that you know some of the some of the guys out there in uh West Texas still shoot the uh 6284 because it's such a good long-range caliber for varmint hunting. Um and that's basically what we talked about with uh uh Cash and uh his rifle build and kind of his experiences growing up and how he got into varmint hunting, which is all amazing information, and I'm not gonna go into too much detail because most likely I'm gonna have to call Cash and rebug him and we're gonna have to refilm the episode. Um basically we sat down, we had an hour and a half conversation, and we uh had a great episode. Um, bad part when I went to edit the uh recordings, um, one of the files was corrupted and it was the recording of Cash's phone call. Um I record myself my audio separately, and so that file had been corrupted, so we have no Wildcat Wednesday this morning. I do apologize, and Cash, I apologize for wasting your time. Um cool part uh along with this whole thing is that uh Cash has kind of reignited my interest in the 284 Winchester case, um, right, because that's the parent case for the uh 6284, is the 284 Winchester, um, which was originally launched by Winchester in 1963. Um it was originally offered in the Winchester Model 100, which basically would shoot a 100 to 120 grain uh you know copper jacketed lead core, soft nose, lead bullet. Um, and it was shooting it out of a semi-automatic Winchester Model 100 platform, and that was the original intent for that cartridge, uh, which is super funny. Um, I want to say that the trim length for the 284 brass is like 2.1. Um, maybe it's a little less, maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's a maybe it's a you know 40 or 50 thousandths greater. Um somewhere in that ballpark range, it's only about a hundred thousandths greater than uh a normal 308 trim to length, which is 2.040, if I remember correctly. And so uh funny enough, when I was a when I was younger, I don't know, maybe eight years ago. Um, so I was like 22, 20 years old, something like that. Our uh my gunsmith I was using at the time, which was uh Aaron from Tyranny Arms, um, Aaron had brought up to me that I think someone wanted to do a 284 Winchester build or something like that. And he had vaguely mentioned it to me uh about hey, you know, if you want a really high performance cartridge, you know, 284 Winchester would be really cool because we talked about a 708 Ackley, and you know, I wanted more performance, and he was like, basically the 708 uh or sorry, basically the 284 is you know basically a short mag because it is a rebated rim. So uh it is a very, very fat case for being off of 308 bolt face, but uh it has a rebated rim. So the rim of the case is much smaller uh than the actual overall diameter of the cartridge itself. Um so it's a rebated rim. In theory, it could probably have a magnum rim uh for that, uh, or it could have like a magnum bolt face for the case head. It probably could. Um I don't know what the actual dimensions are, but it looks like it's big enough. Um but the rebated rim design is very cool. It gives guys options who are running a standard bolt face, uh, the ability to basically run a cartridge that in theory is very, very, very close to having the exact same case capacity as the more modern 6.5 PRC. Um so when and basically right, the only modern people who are shooting the 284 Winchester case, which I have experienced shooting myself, and since we were going to talk about the 6284, um I've had a couple guys actually reach out to me on Instagram recently asking about, hey, are there any good, you know, short action 7mm cartridges that we should consider? And I have mentioned to them the 284 Winchester. So, uh since we don't have Cash's uh recording tonight or this morning, um I'm gonna re-basically record an episode and I'm just gonna talk about the 284 Winchester and my personal experiences of it. I built one years ago. Um I put, you know, I don't know, anywhere between 1500 rounds to 2,000 rounds through that rifle. Um and it basically was primarily just target shooting. I really didn't hunt with a rifle. Um and I'm gonna talk about that because I think it's an amazing case, and uh talking to Cash about his experience with the 6284 has really re-uh ignited my interest in this case. And I think there's probably a pretty good chance later this year or next year uh I'll have a barrel on order for a 6284 um and potentially another straight 284. Um I really really love that case design. Um it doesn't have uh it is a longer case, right? Just like the 308 case, so it is uh it's a much more pushy recoil than like snappy recoil, which I really really appreciate. Um I kind of know you know like a 7 mag, 7 mags recoil is pretty pushy rather than being snappy. 284, I'd I'd put it on that same realm. Um cool part, um, not a lot of guys besides F-Class shooters actually shoot the 284 Winchester case. And so for basically the modern 2000s, the 284 Winchester case has basically solely been known in F-Class shooting, right? 1 and 8 twist, you know, 30 inch long barrels, guys are shooting 180 grain burgers, and they're shooting for groups in a thousand yards. And I think, and I may be wrong, right? It it depends on how these guys are running their rifles, but kind of a normal load for those 180 180s out of a 30-inch uh tube is kind of like 2850, 2900 feet a second. And uh what I will say is that you know when I was doing my research on the 284 Winchester, everyone in the United States was basically primarily running it for F-Class. There aren't many people running it as a hunting rifle or a rifle, a hunting cartridge. And uh all I was reading online was guys are like, if you're gonna do a 284 Winchester build, you have to go with a long action. You have to go with a long action because if you're gonna basically take, you're gonna try to maximize the case capacity inside the case, you should you can probably load it at like 3.2 inches overall cartridge length, which would be perfect for like an XM action from uh Defiance. Um, and right there are tons of uh awesome manufacturers that are making XM uh or medium length action, which is basically your max cartridge overall length, is 3.2 inches. Um, there are a bunch of great companies making XM stuff now, right? We have XLR, you have MDT, you have MDT running the the their uh AIC mags for the medium length actions. Um it's very nice to see people supported in that, right? You can get a medium length action in whatever bolt face you would like. Um there are some great options for that medium length action out there, but for you know, guys like me at the time when I originally was looking at doing a uh more of a short action type uh more of a short action magnum type of build, and I was looking at 284 Winchester. One of the massive benefits was that it was a standard bolt face, and I thought that I could run it off of a normal 308 length uh action, which normally write uh your overall cartridge length out of a box mag is probably gonna be like 2.90. Uh with AIC mags, right, you're up somewhere around like 2.960, 2.950, somewhere in that ballpark range for AIC mag length with no binder plate. Um, some guys would argue that that's kind of that is lengthening, uh, get or trying to get more length out of a normal, like you know, just a standard short action, um, versus going with a true medium length action that would open you up basically an extra 200 thou. It would give you up to 3.2 inches, which is the interior length you're held to with the you know XM AIC mags. Um maybe you get a little more if you're using a Yatt's bottom metal, but that's not something I've done personally. Um, so basically, I'm at this point in my journey where I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna do this 284 Winchester build. I know nothing about the case. Uh I went and got uh a handful of 6.5 by 284 uh Norma brass. It was the brand was Lapua, but it was the 6.5 by 284 Norma. Um, kind of I guess more backstory on the 284 case, it is uh one of the only calibers where the wildcat cartridge basically became more popular than the parent cartridge. So when it came out in 1963, right, it was at the time uh targeted towards hunters, and immediately guys started wildcatting it. So they started wildcatting it from a 22-284, 6-284, 25-284, uh 27 by 284, uh 308 by 284, um, 375 by 284, um, which is super impressive. So basically all the way from 22 caliber all the way up to 375. Um on the 284 case, is there an improved version of this case? Yes, it's called the Sheehan. Um and it's if I remember correctly, it's S-H-E H A N E Shehan or Shehane, however you want to pronounce it. Um, and basically you can find uh the improved cartridge for the Wildcats, uh, like the 6284 Shehane, uh the 284 Shehane, the 22284 or 25284 Shahane. Um now, granted, you don't get a huge improvement in case capacity with the Shahane. Um, I believe it does bump the shoulder up to a 40 degree shoulder, so you gain a little bit of case capacity because naturally, basically the 284 Winchester case, basically straight walled. Um, it is basically a straight walled case with a 35 degree shoulder. And so you get 66 grains of H2O capacity, right? Give or take, probably a couple grains either direction, depending on uh which manufacturer you you're using for brass. Primarily, uh, you can get Norma, Lapua, uh Peterson, and I want to say that uh sorry. For brass manufacturers, you're looking at Lapua, and Lapua's gonna be making straight 284 brass or the 6.5 by 284 brass. And funny enough, before I go any further, I guess, uh the 6.5x284 was actually probably one of the most notable wildcats off of the 284 Winchester case. It was liked so much in Europe that Norma actually grabbed the case and had it Sami spec'd. So that's why you end up with the 6.5 by 284 Norma. Um, granted, it is just a 6.5 by 284 Winchester that Norma went and got Sami spec'd. So you have Norma Brass, you have Lapua brass, you have Peterson brass, and um uh I believe that's it from my understanding. There was a small stint where Lapua stopped making 6.5 by 284 and 284 Winchester brass. So Peterson was the only ones, which that was a huge negative, only having one brass manufacturer. I'm a huge, huge uh uh proponent or I guess uh supporter of Lapua brass. I think Lapua brass is great, and specifically their 284 Winchester brass is amazing. Um so I'm a young kid, I want this 7mm, uh, I want something that's gonna start pumping stuff up at higher velocities, bigger bullets, better BC, longer distance shooting, stuff like that. So basically, I started doing a ton of research on the 284 Winchester case, and what I find is that in Eastern Europe, um, specifically New Zealand, a lot of these guys are buying 708, uh 708s by Tika. And what I didn't know and I learned, right, is that Tika's are technically all the exact same action length. They basically just have a uh bolt stop that stops the bolt throw from basically if you're running a short action cartridge, uh, it stops your bolt throw very short, um, right, for like a 6.5 Creedmore case, 308 case. If you're running like a long action magnum, like a 7 mag, you have the extended bolt stop so your bolt can go further backwards, right? Basically giving you the actual full length of pull for a long action cartridge versus the more shallow throw that they try to do with a short action cartridge, but it's just swapping on a bolt stop. Um, so guys are buying these 708s and they're having them reamed out to 284, they're swapping out the bolt stop, so the long action bolt stop, and then they're running these things in a factory rechambered Tika uh at 3.2 inches, and they're running 162 grain ELDMs, they're chopping the barrels down to 18 inches, and they're running 162 grain ELDMs with reloader 17 at 2900 feet a second, and they call them the Super Pig. Loved the name. So the 284 win super pig. Uh, Google it, it's super fun. There's like vaguely some videos on it. There's a handful of uh conversations in different forums online, that's kind of where you you'll read the most about the super pig. Um and right, these guys in New Zealand, they are mountain hunting motherfuckers. Like they are they are on some of the steepest, craziest shit. And right, these guys are going and they're calling goats, they're shooting red deer or stags, they're shooting uh hogs, and a lot of it's high-angle shots, so these guys want a packable rifle, and they want something with really good BC for long-range shooting, and that 162-grain ELDM by Hornady has a G1 BC of 0.67. It has a very, very sharp O jive, and so it's kind of a short, fat bullet with a very, very aggressive O jive at the front, but it's very sharp and abrupt, so you can seat that bullet into the neck of the case, and basically your boat tail junction's kind of like right at the uh shoulder body junction of the case. And so, I mean, you're running anywhere between 48 grains of H4350 all the way up to 52, 53 and a half grains of H4350 is kind of a standard load. Um, anywhere in that range for the 160 grain class bullets, right? You need to start low for your rifle. For me, I normally started around 47, 48 grains of H4350, and I just slowly increase half a grain and monitor pressures, monitor velocity. Out of a out of a 24-inch barrel, uh a one and eight and a half twist, I was running 162 grain ELDMs with H4350 and 6.5 by 284 Norma Lapua brand brass that was just necked up, um, and the 162-grain ELDMs, and I was running them, you know, depending on the load, anywhere between 2900 and 2950, and that was at the overall cartridge length of 2.950. And so basically what I did was I had a short action, How a 1500. I had sent it off to Aaron at the time, and Aaron uh blueprinted it. Um, I later had the action sent off to a completely separate gunsmith, had them bush the bolt, bush the firing pin, had them cut off the bolt knob and thread on a tactical bolt knob, which was great. Um, and then when I was looking for getting a 284 Winchester barrel, um, I particularly love Shillin barrels. I really, really like them. I've had great luck with Shillin barrels. Well, Shillin, you can go and order uh prefit barrels from them. They call them Ultra Nut. They're basically a remage barrel. Uh they don't use a Savage Large small shank barrel nut, they use a savage large shank barrel nut. So basically it'll be right your threads going into your receiver, and then the threads step up to the exact same size as the savage large shank barrel nut, and then that's how you use that barrel nut system to headspace uh that barrel to your receiver, which is great. And so I've had good luck with those barrels. Um, you can get them in select match, which I always do. Um they run five or six hundred bucks depending on uh you know what dimensions you get them in. Again, I got their heavy contour originally, it was stainless select match. I think it was a one and eight and a half twist barrel, and I had it threaded five eighths by twenty-four and chopped off at twenty four inches. Um that barrel was super, super good to me. And the 284 Winchester case, honestly, very easy to load for. Um, I remember at the time, right, this was kind of like you know, part way through the pandemic, and so like I had found like accurate H4350, which if you don't know and you've never played around with accurate 4350, it is a very bulky ass powder. Um, so like I could I could only fit in enough uh accurate 4350 into a 284 Winchester case at 2.950 uh overall cartridge length. I could only fit in enough accurate 4350 to get 162s at like 2028. So I wasn't maxing out on pressure, I was maxing out on case capacity, just luckily, uh, you know, using reloader 17, reloader 15.5, h4350, h4350 was the big winner. Uh for me, I loved it. I used reloader 26 a little bit, and reloader 26 in that case uh got those things screaming. Uh, I on a cold morning out in Nevada, I was testing it. I remember I had 162s at 3100 feet a second with a reloader 26 out of a 24-inch barrel. I'm sure that I was at the top end of velocities, top end of uh uh pressures, but uh it is a very, very, very capable cartridge. Um I mean at 2900, 2950 with 162 grain ELDM, like you're 100% knocking on the velocity of a 7 mag. Um now, granted, right, 7 mag, 7 PRC, you're looking at you know, probably 180s in that ballpark of 2900 to 3,000 feet a second, depending on how fast your barrel is. Uh, most 7 mags and 7 PRCs, right, are gonna do 3,000 feet a second with the 162s kind of all day long. So I will not say that the 284 is like a true uh 7mm rim mag, 7 PRC competitor, but what I will say is that it's getting pretty damn close. It's doing a really good job, um, especially for you know someone like me, which recently, right, I'm going with uh a completely new uh rifle that I want to start shooting in matches, which right, the uh seventh SWIC by Sherman is now out on the market. Uh it's been on the market for probably a year, um, maybe a little longer. I haven't been super paying attention, but they announced it publicly, at least within the past year to 18 months, which is the 7th Swick. So, right, it's a 7mm off of the 6.5 by 47 Lapua case, right? They actly improved the 6.5 by 47 Lapua case, they necked it up to 7mm, put a 190 grain burger in it, and they're shooting those at like 2600 feet a second. Uh, so to basically come up with my own version of that, I did a 708 Actley improved, which I have both rifles here at the house, they're put together. I have basically a 30-pound uh 708 Actly improved, which I'm shooting 180s at 180 grain ELDMs at like 2700 feet a second. Um, out of my 26 inch 108 twist, and then I have a 24 inch one and eight and a half twist that I will be using for basically some of the local NRL hunter matches, but primarily that's going to be my hunting rifle. Um And for that, I'm going to be shooting the 143 grain uh Maguire Ballistics Copper Rose. Uh it's got really close to like a 0.6 G1 BC. I think it's a 0.58. Um, but anyways, they're monolithic copper bullets. They're pretty slick. We're we're hoping I'll have them in the range between 3100 to 30 to 3200 feet a second out of that 708 Ackley. Um, and the big reason why that I went with the 708 Ackley over just going 284 was just overall basis of it is much easier to run the 708 Ackley out of a AIC mag versus the 284 Winchester. So uh at the time, right, how a 1500 short action. Uh I when you order the barrel from Shillin, cool part, you can actually order it their 284 Winchester with a zero free bar, and then you send them in a dummy round, and they will have they can basically throw it to the dummy round. So I was dumb, didn't understand that at the time. Uh, so I did not do that. So I was just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, just chamber my barrel up with whatever the normal free bore is for your guys' 284 Winchester Reamer. And so they threaded it, and I think with uh or they chambered it, and I think with my 162 grain ELDM, I think my jam point was like 3.030. So 3 inches and 30 thousandths was my jam, and I was loading them at 2.950. So I had like 80,000ths of jump. Um not a huge deal, and uh it shot great. I had a I had a I had an amazing time with that rifle. I killed some coyotes with it, never never took it pig hunting. Um, but I just I used that rifle as a way of basically my version of a 308. Uh I used it to get out and just go target shoot. I shot the shit out of that rifle. I took my first long-range shooting course with uh Mark Zorick, West Coast Long Range, uh, Mark, my first course I did with Mark, I think in like 2022 or 2023. That was the exact rifle I brought. I brought a 284 Winchester on a short action, and uh that load that I was shooting was one of the ones with accurate 4350, so it was like I was shooting 162s at 2850 out of a 24-inch barrel, and my ES and standard deviation was fucking everywhere. I think my extreme spread was like 50 or 60 because Mark chronographed it when I was there, and Mark thought it was hilarious. He was like kind of like, what the fuck are you doing showing up with this rifle with this load? And I'll be honest, I I had zero problems making impacts on targets at 750 and in. It got a little hairy past that, but I mean, even Mark was uh seemed pretty surprised with how you know shitty the ammunition was for that rifle. Uh right, not accuracy-wise. I mean, it's still printed easily under an inch at 100 yards, but right with that extreme spread and standard deviation, right, from everything that we have been told, uh, you're right, you're probably not gonna be good. You're probably you know you're gonna be missing targets at five, six, seven hundred yards, right, because of the difference in velocity is gonna translate to a difference in vertical spread. Um, but I actually I I did fine again, you know, up until about you know seven, seven fifty in that range, that's kind of where it was like, right, one shot would be high, next shot would be low, and right, I'm fighting against extreme spread at that point. Um, but within that, man, that got hammered. Uh, I shot the shit out of it. I ended up ordering a uh Carbon 6 uh Carbon Fiber 284 Winchester prefit barrel for that exact rifle. Um now, granted, I tried to call Carbon 6 and ask them, like, hey, what 284 Winchester Reamer do you guys have? Because if they are using an F-Class style reamer, uh, it is going to put you where your jam point is 3.2 inches. And so I think I hit up Carbon 6, and I think they told me they didn't completely know uh what like what the free bar was on the reamer they were using. So I took a chance, ordered a barrel, barrel came back, barrel was throated for basically a long action. It was throated for 3.2 inches, was my jam point. And uh unfortunately I ended up grabbing that barrel. I grabbed my original 284 Winchester barrel, and I sold it to a guy back east, and you know, I talked with him kind of all about my reloading stuff, you know, what my experiences were were with the case, and he bought that stainless steel barrel from Shillin that I originally had, which I don't know, had 1500 to 2,000 rounds on it, which the the barrel wear on it looked amazing. It it didn't it barely had any throat erosion at all, um, which again, super cool uh that the barrel life was so well on that cartridge. And for that, you know, original stainless steel barrel, right? I was taking it out and shooting the shit out of it. Um funny enough, the American Rifle Company uh AIC mags, the ones that are basically dual stack and feed into a single feed, uh, those ones actually handled the 284 Winchester case quite well, and you could basically fit, I want to say, eight or nine rounds of 284 in the arc mags. Um, so that's primarily what I ran. I still have like three or four of their mags sitting in my safe because that's all I used it for was 284 Winchester. Um so uh yeah, that was uh that was a really fun time for me for doing that, but uh I grabbed basically I wasn't super happy that I had this barrel that was throated for basically what I would consider a long action. Didn't even want to try to shoot it or mess with it. I grabbed that original stainless steel barrel, I grabbed all the brass that I had, which I had probably four, four, four or five hundred pieces of brass, and that brand new carbon fiber barrel, and I sold it all, sold all my seven millimeter bullets. Um, and I was basically just like dead set I was getting out of the seven millimeter game. And uh then I ended up on a completely separate kick where I ended up building a seven by six point five PRC, which was a shit show. Um I got my original barrel, uh did not shoot well. It was uh basically I got bad, it was a it was a badly rifled barrel. The manufacturer gave me a new barrel blank, which was very nice. Um great customer service, and that was proof research, which I do really, really appreciate them doing that. And uh they were they're a great company to work with. But uh basically I ended up actually uh sending off my uh reamer and headspace gauges to Shillon because Shillon, I was gonna have them spin me up a prefit for a 7x6.5 PRC with all my own stuff, and basically, right, that remar and set ended up getting shipped to like a random ass house in Houston. Um, and basically, I never got notified by the post office. 60 days passed, which is basically the time you can report something missing. It timed out, I lost out on three or four hundred dollars worth of reamers and headspace gauges, and then I was completely out of the 7mm game, and I was super, super disappointed, and I'll be honest, I was I had some regret there. I was like, man, I never should have gotten rid of that 284 Winchester. Um, I really, really, really liked that caliber. Um, you know, there are just some unfortunate things, right? It's kind of unique with having a standard bolt face and kind of a short action cartridge, or you can make it work in a short action. Um like it's a it's a great cartridge. Like, I mean, I I went and basically redid a uh I had a I had my one of my dad's old rifles rebarreled. It was a Winchester Model 70 and it was a post-64. It was one he bought when he was 12 years old. My dad's my dad's like 67 right now. Um so you know he bought that thing 50 plus years ago, and uh I had it rebarreled with a proof Sendero one and eight and a half twist uh barrel, and uh he it was originally in 7 mag, and so we had it put back in 7 mag, but getting ready to rechamber that thing for the 7 mag barrel, uh I almost went and tried to find a standard bolt face bolt to do a long action 284 Winchester on that rifle, and I thought that would be so badass uh because you'd get very, very similar performance, you'd get less recoil, it would it'd be a really fun cartridge. So uh 284 Winchester is a dying cartridge, but it's still very, very, very relevant in this day and age. I think it is so fun. Uh even uh funny enough, I just saw like yesterday uh one of the guys who works for unknown munitions uh had them build him a 25 by 284, and he did it on a long action, and he had it all done up super nice. It was in an XLR 4.0 uh magnesium element or sorry, element 4.0 magnesium chassis. Um super super nice looking rifle, and I was messaging him back and forth. We were bullshitting, and he uh was running a 20-inch barrel, one in seven twist, 25, 284, and he was looking at shooting the 135 or 133 green class bullets at like 3,000 feet a second out of that rifle. Um, which is super cool, right? 25 Creedmore is not gonna give you that velocity. Going 284, you're absolutely gonna get it. Um, and then like when the 257 caliber bullets kind of took over, uh, or kind of got like reignited with heavier for caliber bullets uh a few years ago when blackjack was still around and Sierra was making the 131 grain blackjacks for them. Uh they were also a huge proponent of the 284 case. Uh, and they basically got guys to start rebuilding 25 by 284s due to the fact that right at that time they were the primary ones that were building these or having built these high BC uh 25 cow bullets. And uh, because I actually called them and and chatted with them a bit, and you know, if you want max velocity, go with the 25x284 and blah blah blah, and uh super cool cartridge design, super cool idea. And right, I get into this whole thing and and it goes back to Cash's build. Uh Cash built right his 6284 and he built it off of a short action. So uh funny enough, when I ordered my original 284 Winchester barrel from Shillin, I actually had on order with them a 6mm 284, and basically, right, like when you place an order of a Shillin, it's gonna be five or six months until you get a barrel. Um and so uh basically I had placed an order for a 284 Winchester barrel, I had placed an order for a 24-inch 6284 barrel, and I was reading you know tons of shit online, and I got super nervous that I was gonna run out of uh length for the six millimeter 284, so I ended up phoning Shillon back up and asked them to swap that barrel to a 243 Ackley, which right, I shoot the 243 Ackley to this day, uh, you know, eight, eight, nine years later, and uh I've never looked back. So funny enough, I I had headspace gauges, I had brass, I had dies, I had everything. And I think I actually are I actually had some rounds loaded up for the 6284, and I was basically just waiting for the barrel to show up. And so uh I had a set of reading full-length sizing dies, and I can't remember if they were type S dies with the uh right replaceable the neck bushing or if it was just the normal full-length sizing die. I can't remember which one it was. Uh, but I had these dies for years and years and years, and basically two years ago, uh Cash hit me up and was like, hey man, I remember like ages ago you were thinking about doing a 6284. You never did it. Like, any chance you still have any of your reloading stuff? And I said, Yeah, in fact, I have these 6284 dies. Cash bought the dies for me, and then those are the dies that he's currently using for his 6284. So for me, super, super, super cool, like kind of chain of events where right I was gonna do a rifle cartridge, didn't decide to do it, uh, and now a uh you know buddy, someone who I bullshit with a lot uh about reloading and you know shooting and hunting stuff, is now doing one of these uh builds. And cool enough, you know, something that runs me down memory lane is something that is in his everyday use for reloading for this cartridge. And so uh I'm pretty sure Cash for his build is using Peterson brass primarily and he's necking it down. Um and uh you know cash is playing around with everything from you know 70-80 grain bullets all the way up to 105 burgers, um, and he's running them at a max cartridge length of 2.950 um for guys who are really interested. Just short, you know, short action, 26-inch barrel, one in eight twist. Uh cash only has 100 or 150 rounds on the barrel, and so he's still doing testing, right? Still breaking in brass, stuff like that. And uh just on just an uh a kind of a whim load, uh, and cash right uses quick loads to basically check pressures on everything. He actually checks his own H2 or H2O capacity for his cases, right? Trying to get basically as accurate information as he can on quick loads. Uh Cash has basically a very mild load worked up right now with the 105 burgers where he's shooting those at 3325, um, which is great. And right, guys who are running the six PRCs right now, which is the the latest and greatest, right? Wildcat or King of the 6mm, um, which I also built a six PRC earlier, uh maybe last year or the year before. Um, right, guys are pushing 105s at like 3,500 feet a second, um, which I have no doubt cash can get very close to, but cash isn't gonna deal with any of the issues that those guys are dealing with. So the 6PRC, uh, I had a barrel spun up. I won't say by who, um, but I had a barrel spun up for one of my Mac Brothers actions. It was a 24-inch barrel, not threaded. Um, I believe it was a one a 1 and 7.5 twist barrel. It was a it was a stainless steel proof barrel, uh, a medium palma, if I remember correctly, and I had it chambered up and I, you know, had uh Peter, I believe it was Peterson 6.5 PRC brass necked it up to 7mm, and it was just that's what it was. Or sorry, my bad. Necked it down to 6mm. Um and uh man, there's a lot of recoil behind that six PRC case. That was something I did not like. Uh I like being able to write shoot comfortably, you know, see impacts, uh, right. My 243 Ackley, I shoot everything with, right? We're bored driving around ranches, I'll shoot crows out of trees at long distance, I'll shoot jackrabbits, I'll kind of shoot anything, including rocks. I don't care, we can get bored and start shooting long-range rocks. Um the 6 PRC was definitely uh noticeably with recoil, was on that Magnum Spectrum. Um which, you know, it it was a 14-14-pound rifle. Um, and I mean it had significant recoil to the point I was like, I'm good, I don't want to sit here and just plink with this thing, I don't. And I also knew that it had significant barrel wear, so you know, uh doing tons of load development with it wasn't super fun. So I put, I don't know, three or four hundred rounds on that barrel, uh, just through load development, and uh nothing nothing that was actually crazy high velocities. Like I think for fireforming brass, I was fireforming brass at like 3200 feet a second with 105s, which was a very mild load. Um but yeah, I pulled that barrel off and sold it to a guy and uh never heard anything since. I'm guessing he's happy with it. Um but yeah, just wasn't uh wasn't a caliber for me. Um what I will say though is you know, Cash Cash loves that 6284, and he loves it so much that I'm really thinking about getting another barrel for it. Um and it's uh it's an enjoyable, enough of an enjoyable cartridge to shoot that Cash's son has actually basically taken over the rifle. Um and that was another very uh fun story that we got into, right? Cash talks about kind of the pivotal moments for uh himself getting into varmint hunting, some of the very important uh things in his childhood, like there was a very specific rifle his father passed down to him, which got him into varmint hunting, and he grew up in uh Idaho next to the Snake River, and so uh basically rock chuck shooting, coyote shooting was a big thing for him. He grew up in a farming family, and uh basically, right, the time of the year for harvest was during big game season, so that wasn't a thing for him. So for right, shits and giggles, fun, uh also crop protection, right? Him and his family primarily did varmint hunting along with coyote hunting in the winter um or in the spring. And uh, right, because they weren't hunting during harvest. So uh cash kind of goes over all that stuff, and then right, he gets to kind of go full circle at the end of the podcast, and he uh gives us kind of a uh a couple stories about him and his son, who's now 14, and how he's getting him into varmint hunting, and he's got you know, he's got the full bug, and he's going out with cash and shooting, and the 6284 is one of his favorite rifles to shoot. Um, which you know, cash said that he's taken multiple things at 500 yards, uh, you know, from badgers to coyotes, um, which is it's super, super cool to hear that, right? Getting kids into the outdoors is great. Um, funny enough, I just didn't I told Cash this during the podcast. I'm still so so sad that that episode didn't save correctly. Um but you know, funny enough, I've talked with Cash and I always talk with people on the new podcast with prior to the podcast. And so me and Cash were talking, you know, he's telling me about everything that was going on with his son, and within a couple days of that conversation, my son turned six years old, and I was able to take him out to a buddy's ranch, which I really, really appreciate him allowing us to go out there because it meant a lot to my son. And uh basically, right, you know, taking a six-year-old out, right? We're the main premise is just trying to go have fun. This is you know, my son's gone out with us, uh elk hunting, you know, trying to go out, and uh when we don't have a tag, we'll go out in Nevada kind of in December or November and you know, look for deer, stuff like that, you know, go start a fire, go brew some, you know, coffee for the adults, some hot chocolate for the kids, and we sit there behind glass and try to pick out some deer in an area that we uh are hopefully gonna pull a tag at some point. And uh, you know, it's always fun, but he was never in a situation where, like dad, dad's actually hunting. And so uh, you know, we went to the ranch and dad wasn't actually hunting, but uh, you know, he thought we were, and so right, he had his binoculars. I funny enough, I was at my dad's recently and I found an old pair of 10 by 42 Steiners that were uh an older pair that I used to have as a child. And so uh my son got those. Uh he had those when we went hunting out here in California, and uh you know, we're pulling up at the ranch, we get to the gate, he has his binoculars, right? We're all throwing on our our shit, you know, grabbing rifles and stuff, and uh, you know, we pull in the gate, and within, I don't know, a quarter mile of the gate, there's a herd of like 30 pigs off the road. So he got to see some pigs, which was super cool. Neither me or my buddy wanted to fuck with shooting a pig, so we held off on that. We uh we had in mind if we wanted to go target shoot, and uh so you know, Jackson got to see the pigs. There were you know, I think the little lead boar that was kind of the younger boar leading the group was maybe about 200 pounds, and a lot of you know smaller sows, kind of in that 100-pound range. Still really cool to see. They were hanging out under some oak trees, and uh, you know, we're driving through, they take off. You know, my son got to see that, which was cool, right? The pig's taking off through the prairie, desk flying up, he's trying to watch them through binoculars, and uh also they were calving at that time, so he got to see uh a bunch of fresh calves get dropped, which is great. Uh, right, it's super pretty, it's a spring, right? We have like neon green grass everywhere. There's uh the ranch we're on, has uh a couple different types of uh cattle. I can't remember which uh what the names are, but basically black Angus and then the white cows. I can't remember what the name of those are, but uh you know, Jackson was obsessed with it. At one point we pulled over to gloss some stuff up, we were trying to spot some pigs, and we were next to uh basically a a heifer and her calf, and you know, Jackson just couldn't get over how adorable these calves are. I mean, you just want to s you just want to scoop them up and take them home as a puppy. So uh he he thought that was super cool. Uh I had my 223 Ackley with me at the time, and so uh my buddy was shooting shooting uh uh squirrels out of the truck with that. Jackson was watching them blow up, which he literally like we're we we pull up at one point. I think we had some ground squirrels at like 50 yards. My buddy, you know, uh shoots a couple of them, and Jackson just like bails out of the truck with his iPad. He's just sprinting out there, wants to go see these squirrels that just got turned inside out at 50 yards. And uh he he thought that was super cool. He was you know telling mom, oh we're gonna we're gonna see a coyote and I'm gonna I'm gonna pew it. And my uh my buddy luckily brought a uh little chipmunk 22 for my son, and so my son got to mess around with that a little bit. And we uh we had a good day barbecuing, had some hamburgers, and uh took a quick drive around the ranch and uh ended up actually seeing a coyote zipping through one of the cattle fields at like 500 yards. And uh kind of a cool note for myself. Recently got some Revic Binos that are the range finding ones. They do actually give you your dope. Um I haven't actually inputted uh my rifle's you know, ballistic calculator data into their software. So I don't get that, but uh basically, right? Bring it up, you know, bring up the binos, range, uh, it's gonna spit out of range for you, and uh right, you can go from there. And so basically, that's I was just testing the binos when we're out at the ranch, and uh I had at the time, I had one of my how if it's my last how of 1500 that I have, and it's a uh has a chillin 22 inch one in eight twist uh 243 Ackley barrel on it. I have it sitting in an XLR uh element 4.0 magnesium chassis with a folder, um, and then I'm running the uh basically it's the like triple pull PRS stuff uh Dauntless bipod, um which I really really like. It comes in at like 29 ounces, but it's it's cheaper, like on sale, they're 350 bucks. A fantastic bipod. Um love it. So basically, I hopped out of the truck, ranged, uh ranged it at 460 when it first stopped. I knew my dope for 500, so I dialed for five. Uh right, I've practiced proning out with this bipod before. I'm I'm you know familiar with what position. So basically I ranged, stepped out of the truck, proned out on the ground, and had a shot off within 60 seconds. And uh right, dumped the coyote, ran out in the field, grabbed it, brought it back. My son was all about it. He was so happy, got to come home and tell mama that we uh we pewed a coyote. And uh yeah, we ended up going out, doing some uh doing some burgers, and uh then we headed out from there. And uh it was it was great. Was it harder than you know us going out and doing something on our own? Yeah, totally. Uh because you're right, you're trying to keep a uh keep a six-year-old entertained, but uh that was priceless for me. And you know, I told Cash that story when we were on the podcast, and I told him that uh right the end goal is that when you know my son is you know 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 years old, like he's going through with his son right now, I hope that I have done a good job as a father introducing my son to the outdoors like Cash has, and I hope that my son has uh as much love for the outdoors and shooting and hunting as I do. Right? That's every father's dream. If I can share the outdoors and have a hunting partner that's my son or my daughter, um and go out and enjoy my hobbies with them, that's a huge thing. Um and I think that every parent, every uh sister, brother, father, daughter, aunt, uncle, um, I think that everyone, if you get the opportunity to take a kid out into the outdoors and get them into shooting and the recreational space, I think you should. Um I think it's a huge outlet for kids that they can easily focus on because it's something that they they can find uh entertaining very easily, right? Kids like doing things that they find fun, uh just like adults do, right? We don't like doing shit that's actually hard work. Um so kids will gravitate normally towards uh extracurricular activities that you're putting in front of them versus schoolwork and stuff like that, um, which everyone needs a healthy outlet. So I mean I can tell you when I was in college and I was going through some shit, that was kind of when I got into kind of big hot and heavy in hunting. And I was very, very lucky that that was my outlet at the time versus drinking and partying and everything else. I didn't want that stuff, man. I was I was leaving my college dorm or my college apartment, you know, early in the morning, late at night to, you know, make a last-minute drive to Nevada because someone had a muzzle loader tag, and I was gonna go spend the night uh in the bed of my pickup in a BLM parking lot uh trying to get you know mule deer or going coyote hunting uh up in Mendocino or going pig hunting up in Mendocino. That was that was a huge you know time for me, and uh I was just lucky that I kind of stumbled into it versus having someone really get me into it. Um right, my dad you know had me hunting as a as a child, but it wasn't something I did a ton of due to the fact that I had collegiate sports during normal big game season. So uh varmiting and and coyote hunting and stuff was kind of my primary uh way into it, and I just when I got more time on my hands when I was uh older as an adult, uh, you know, 18, 19 years old in college, that's kind of when it took off with uh me uh making sure that I could actually have a lot of time to go hunting. But uh, anyways, I uh I look forward to us having an actual Wildcat Wednesday, uh maybe next week or the following, whenever cash is available, so we can actually redo this uh podcast over the six millimeter 284. But I hope this gives you a better reference on the 284 Winchester case, you know, what you can do with it in a modern setting, right? It is a very, very valid cartridge still. If you are gonna run it in a short action, um, I would not be fearful of it. And honestly, as a a cheaper option and something where you can customize it very easily, I am a huge proponent of those Shillon alternate barrels. Um, I know some guys might not like it, they might not think they're accurate. Um, you know, I run I run those as 243 Ackley barrels, I run those as 6 GT barrels, I run those as 284 Winchester barrels. Um I've never had any issues getting accuracy. I mean my 243 Winchester barrels are shoot quarter inch groups. Uh you know, my 284 at the time, and granted I wasn't was not at my peak of me getting into reloading and accuracy and all that stuff, but I mean that thing shot half-inch groups all day long. Um I would never be fearful of about getting a prefit barrel. And if you are interested in doing a short action 284 Winchester, having the option to order it through Shillin and order it with a zero freebore and send in whatever dummy round you want, and they'll throw it directly to that is a huge benefit, right? Because if you are gonna run you know 162 grain ELDMs and you throwed it for 2.950, you can then load it in an AIC mag at 2. You know, 930, give yourself 20,000ths a jump, and you're gonna get a lot of room to actually play with the jam point and stuff like that. You're not gonna just be loading at mag length and kind of just dealing with whatever your uh uh freebore is. So if you guys have any questions about it, anything like that, hit me up on Facebook, Instagram. Um, I'm an open book, and then uh also um it's very old. Uh not I guess not super, super old. It's probably three or four years old now, but I have a video of that original rifle uh that I put on YouTube. Now, granted, it's an older video, this is not uh not peak performance for uh for old Joe. So uh take it easy. If you guys watch the video, leave me a comment saying, hey, watched it, liked it, hated it, you look stupid, uh, whatever you guys want, but uh any comment helps the algorithm. And please, if you guys enjoy this stuff, take the time to subscribe, give us a thumbs up. Um if you guys want to leave comments or reviews on Spotify or uh uh Apple Podcast or YouTube, please feel free. Um tell me. Tell me if you think I if I look dumb or uh if I'm you know good host, whatever, whatever you guys think. It does help the algorithm, help helps more information get out there to other people. Um and right, all we're trying to do is just share information with people. That is it. So uh just uh if I could recommend something, there's been a lot of stuff going on recently in my personal life. Grab your family, give them a hug, remind them that you love them because our days are numbered, and unfortunately, you do not know when your clock is up. So uh enjoy every moment with your family, enjoy every moment you guys get in the outdoors, take every single breath uh as a gift from God, and I hope that you guys have a great rest of your week and happy Wednesday.