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Bench Talk Wildcat Wednesday; The OG Wildcatter Super 6mm Hotrod, The 6mm-284 with Cache Carlson!

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0:00 | 1:19:21

Good Morning Guys!

We are back with Cache Carlson from the Varminter Magazine crew and Cache has a very fun caliber to discuss! The 6mm-284 is a variant or wildcat off of the late  284Win and is the predecessor to the now popular 6PRC and 6UM or 6mm short mag variants. After knowing Cache's great success on a standard short action with AICS mags at 2.950" you'll absolutely see me getting a barrel spun up soon and I hope others follow! The 284Win and its wildcat children are very fun and very useful cartridges even in todays modern era of "precision rifle cartridges". 

Best quote I've seen in awhile courtesy of "lr.noob",  "In a world full of 6 Dashers, be a 243AI"  He's 100% correct ;) 

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SPEAKER_01

All right, guys, welcome back to the Bench Talk Podcast. Um, with me again for the second time recording this is Cash Carlson with uh the Barmiter magazine. Cash, I really appreciate you coming on. And lo and behold, the podcast is related to the six millimeter 284, which you're sporting a great shirt for.

SPEAKER_00

I'm wearing wearing my shirt that Eric made me. So this is actually my license plate on my pickup.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, no, I love that. That's that's hilarious. So yeah. Anna, you said uh you've actually been stopped at a gas station before, and someone actually recognized the license plate and asked, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, this guy chased me down in the grocery store. Um and and he saw my license plate, which is 6 mm 284, and uh he asked me, he says, uh, is that what I think it is? And and I said, Well, yeah, it's a that's what it is. And and he said, Well, his father-in-law shot one in the early 90s, and he hadn't thought of one in 30 years. And uh, he's a boy that brought up a lot of memories. And he said, So, yeah, it's kind of cool to to to have that experience with somebody and bring back something that you know, an old memory of theirs. And that's really kind of what we like to do when it comes to these old wildcats and these old cartridges is is to spark that memory of people that maybe used to have them or know somebody that used to have one, and or maybe they that's what they shoot now. So you know, it's that's that's kind of the fun, nostalgic part of it.

SPEAKER_01

And would you mind kind of elaborating on your upbringing that got you kind of connected into varmint hunting? Uh starting as a kid on the uh, was it the Snake River in Idaho?

SPEAKER_00

Yep, Snake River Canyon here in Idaho. So um I grew up in the small town of Hanson, Idaho, um, which I think population of 440 people. Uh we don't even have a blinking light, uh, real small, you know, agricultural farming community. Um yeah, so I grew up about a half mile from the canyon edge, which from there it's about 480 feet straight down. Um, so it was rock chuck heaven. Um, and so I grew up shooting rock chucks on the family farm and and on the Snake River Canyon, and you know, started off with 1022s and then went to 22 Magnum and and that kind of stuff. And then um my dad, his 22 Hornet is the first center fire cartridge I ever shot a rock chuck with. And and just watching what it did to a rock chuck just sparked that love of varmint cartridges and um right then and there. And I was probably what 10, 10 years old, something like that when I did that the first time, maybe 11. And uh so yeah, that was uh that was the beginning of it. Really was the beginning of this obsession and this addiction to varmint hunting and varmint cartridges and building rifles and doing things that a lot of people don't know exist. And and it's it's just a passion. It really is.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, I appreciate you giving that backstory. And uh talking about your dad's 22 Hornet, right? We had recorded this podcast and talked about it the other day, so I I don't want to leave out tidbits that I thought were super cool. Uh, that 22 Hornet of your dad's, can you kind of explain the story on how he got it?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so it's a Savage Model 219. And for those of you that have no idea what a Savage 219 is, it's a single shot break open platform, and the 219 came with different barrels, and there's a 22 Hornet barrel, and I think a 386, maybe a 3030, and like a 12 gauge, and you could get all of those barrels and put on it. Was kind of the beginning, kind of your first encore, Thompson Encore, if you will. Um, but this rifle was probably built back in the 30s. Um, and anyway, dad acquired that rifle in about 1962, 63. I think dad said he was 14, uh, from the neighbor down the road, and he was going to Vietnam. And dad bought that rifle from him for $15. And so unfortunately, the neighbor did not come home from Vietnam. Like a lot of neighbors down the road on every corner of every inch of the United States. That was just and it was in the 60s. So uh anyway, then dad bought that rifle in 1963. I think dad was 14, yeah, 63. Uh, and dad shot that for years, um, and all the way through college, and he had it, and we still have it. And I shot my first rock chuck with a center fire with that rifle, and and uh it's just kind of a cool old rifle. And um, yeah, that was that was the one sitting in my safe right now. And it's we still take it out and shoot rock chucks and ground squirrels with it a few times a year. And uh yeah, it's just it's really cool.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I love hearing stories about that. And I remember when we were previously talking about it, you said that that was like the most valuable rifle that you guys have, and uh based off all the nostalgia nostalgia behind behind it, and uh, you know, that means a lot. And uh I think it's super cool. I think it's super cool the history you have with rifle, being the you know, first varmint you took was with that at first fire fire rifle. But you know, on the exact same token, right? I'm sure that young gentleman thought that uh he was gonna come home and he maybe was gonna buy that rifle back and he was gonna go out and do the exact same thing your father did. So it's great that you guys are carrying that on. And I'm sure a small amount of his spirit sticks with you guys. And uh yeah, I would like to think so, you know.

SPEAKER_00

And we did talk about you know the value of that rifle and and monetarily, oh it's probably worth a couple hundred bucks, 300 tops. Um, but I don't think you could have put a price tag on it for me to let go. Um, it's just got way too many memories behind it. Um, and yeah, it's just one of those almost an heirloom rifle at this point, you know, uh at least for my family, anyway.

SPEAKER_01

And uh going kind of back into a segue based off that, right? That was a rifle your dad used to get you into varmint hunting. And now talking about the 6284, which is a wildcat that I love. Um, it was one that I had planned on doing a build for years and years and years ago, and ended up backing out because I'm indecisive. And uh it's cool now that right you built that rifle and now it's kind of a favorite rifle for Wyatt to use, your son to use when you guys are out varmit hunting. So it's kind of cool to hear about the 22 Hornet story, and now it's the six two six or six millimeter 284 for Wyatt, and you know, along with a bunch of other cartridges you shoot. Yeah. Um, so it's cool that it's coming full circle.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you know, and this and this 6284 project, in a lot of ways, is like two years in the making. Um, and I I've been wanting to do a 6284 for a long time, and you know, we always had other projects happening or life happens, and and and it had really been on the back of my mind for quite some time. And then uh yeah, it was like two years ago at SHOS Show, I want to say. Um, we were sitting down. Well, what are we what are we looking at doing? What do you want to do? And and I brought up 6284 again, and I was just it's just one of those cartridges that's cool, and I just really want to do it. And so it kind of started there, and we talked about it quite a bit, and then we started getting parts and pieces and and how am I gonna build it and and and what is the the purpose of it? And is it gonna be a a calling rifle? Are we gonna, you know, are you gonna is it something you're gonna pack around? Is it gonna be more of a bench rest environment gun? Is it you know, we we tossed all these things around and uh ended up getting that Warwick 715 short action, um awesome action, freaking love it. Um and kind of started with the action, and then we went moved into a barrel and Criterion. We got a barrel from Criterion, and I think it's uh and I could be wrong on it, it's freaking massive. Um I think it's a heavy varmint profile. Um I think at the muzzle, it's like 0.98 or something like that in diameter, 26-inch tube.

SPEAKER_01

Uh it's gonna be one of those heavier contours, regardless which one it is.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it it's it's it's a fence post. Um, but it's awesome. Um, and criterion barrels are phenomenal. I I just love it. It's a 26-inch eight twist, um sticking on that Warwick action. Um, I did not seracode it, I did not do anything to the barrel. It is stainless steel as it came. Um, I just I I thought it looked better that way. Um and yeah, so going back to the short action and kind of the reasoning behind, and you and I talked about this before, and we can get more into it. I'll talk about it before I talk about the parts this time. Um, so a lot of the time a 284 is a law on a long action. Um, most people build them all long action so that you have more than enough mag length for seating depth, all of that. Well, I knew I wanted to shoot a 105 grid burger. So, in order to do that and not have so much bullet stuffed in the case, I needed to go with a 150-tal freeboard reamer. Because I went with a 150-tal freeboard, that means my bullet seated longer. So, in order to do that in a short action, I had to go with uh a notched feed ramp to get that extra length, and that's all fine and dandy, you can do all that, but now you're limited on mag length. So if you get a standard magazine at two point whatever it is, eight two point eight six or whatever the standard length is, um now you're limited there. But MDT has, and I think other companies do it too, they do their mags without the binder plate. So now you can load just a little bit longer.

SPEAKER_01

2.950 550 to kind of six.

SPEAKER_00

I've got my notes here because I have to have my notes. Um, so in a lot of sense, what I did is I took that short action with the notch feed ramp, and I took the NDT mag without the binder plate. Um, and I can load it longer than your standard short action, but it's not a long action, but it's kind of not really a medium action, but it kind of is. So that was the only way I could do that. So for example, without the binder plate, um mag length is 2.962 inches. Um and I'm basically loading it to mag length, which gives me 11,000 jump at like barely you're almost scraping them the mag. And that was with an 105 grand Berger VLD Hunter. Um and uh so I'm getting a lot further out, and which worked out really well with the 150-tal Free War because now and I didn't know what I was doing. This was a theory, and it was almost like, well, I'm I'm I'm kind of taking a gamble, and we're not sure if it's gonna work until it's put together. So, and that was kind of a fun thing. It's not like I couldn't have changed something, but this was kind of putting all my eggs in one basket and hoping for the best, and it worked. Did I get lucky? Yeah, we're not gonna say it was smart and knew exactly what I was doing. It was it was a shot in the dark, but it worked. Um and so yeah, I'm loading the the the 105 Burgers. Um, and they're that's a phenomenal bullet. Um absolute screamer out of that cartridge and the 26-inch barrel. Um so they're coming out at 3325. The last I chronoed them, checked them, um, which is kind of getting with it in a short action six millimeter. Um and so, and then I'm I'm running doing some load development with 80 grain nozzle or ballistic tips, uh, which I can actually load to um 2.870, which again is is about 20,000 off the lands. Um, and so that really because of the OGive of the of the environment bullet versus the the sleekness of it. I always get these confused. Is a tangent the the the burger is a tangent O jive, if I'm remembering correctly.

SPEAKER_01

Um I don't remember which it is. I know Sierra's is much steeper, so like you would see bullets much more normal off the length. And then it's that that hybrid design, you're getting that that real long O jive where you can bullet out a lot further.

SPEAKER_00

And and that's what you really more find in the environment bullets like the nozzle or ballistic tips, for example. Um, that O jive sits much further out on the on the bullet, not more towards the center. And so, but that also with that with that extra free bore, I can also seat those out a bit further because my O jive is closer to the tip of the bullet rather than the center of the bullet. Um, and and I kind of had that that idea as well. And they're they're coming out at 36 and change, and I'm not really even stepping on it. Um, because that's still flat out cruising for an 80. Um so to kind of get back to we kind of got off on a tangent, but to kind of get back on the rifle build itself. Um so like I said, it's a Warwick 715 short action, um, a criterion barrel, and then it's sitting in an MDT core stock, their new core stock, which is unbelievably awesome. I love that stock. Um, and then I went with a trigger tech diamond trigger. Um, and that that trigger tech's kind of hard to beat, not gonna lie. Um they're just they are what everyone says they are. They're good. They're good.

SPEAKER_01

They're amazing triggers.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, they're good. And I think I've got it down to about a I think it's an eight-ounce pole. It's really, it's really light, but I'm a big fan of light triggers. That's really light. Yeah, really light. All you gotta do is think about it, and she fly and she'll fly. So um, I I'm just a big fan of light triggers, always have been. I don't like this two and a half, three pound crap that people do. I I I I then they wonder why they can't hit anything. Oh, because you're jerking it. Um but that's that's just my opinion. Don't choke. Please don't don't try to die on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01

That's not that was that was hilarious. Because I'm running a two and a half pound trigger. Uh that's hilarious. Yeah, no, that's super funny.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So anyway, I I see people and and they're like, Oh, I'm always pulling to the left. Well, you know, I have revolvers with lighter trigger than that thing, you know, and and I always make fun of Ruger triggers because they're horrible. Factory Ruger triggers. So Timney is it ruger keeps Timney in business, right? Yeah. Um, love Ruger, don't get me wrong, I've got a pile of them. I love Rugers, but man, they're their stock triggers are awful. Um, and I'm kind of a trigger snob in some sense as well. Gotten that be that way later in life. Um, had the luxury of you know having, you know, being financially where I could be a trigger snob. Um, but yeah, so but uh yeah, so the trigger tech diamond trigger uh sitting in the in the uh Grayboat core stock, which their chassis system on their new stocks is uh unbelievably awesome. And I don't know if you're familiar with the chassis or if it you know if anybody is. So what it is is an aluminum billet block that is uh that sits inside the chassis, and that's that's what you actually bolt your action to, and then that block fits down into that stock and then it bolts in. And so the beauty of that is if I want to change stocks, I just unbolt the stock, just put a new one on, and they claim, or I'm not not gonna say that they claim, but um POI should not change because you're not uh disrupting your action from the block.

SPEAKER_01

So, like the actual aluminum betting block actually comes out of the stock completely out of the action, and yeah, and then it just I haven't even seen that all the look off the look when we get off the punk.

SPEAKER_00

Phenomenal system. Um, you know Ryan McMellan with with Graybo have done an amazing job with what they do. Um they're they're innovators, they're they think outside the box, they they just do amazing work. Um and I'm just happy to be involved with with those guys because they're just yeah, uh just let them let let their minds run and see what pops out. And and it they they always are doing some really neat stuff. So, but yeah, the chassis system is great. I love it. Um, the stock itself is amazing. Um and uh the rifle itself is awesome. And then I put a on top of it, we put an Arkin. It's an EP EP5 Gen 2 7 to 35 by 56. Um, great optic, unbelievable optic. And it's not one that's gonna cost you three grand. Uh I think retail they're like six, seven hundred bucks. And uh it it does the job. I mean, it's you know, exposed turrets, zero stop, anything and everything you want on it. Reticles are nice. Um bit nice solid clicks on your on your turrets, not not spongy, not too crisp where you're pop up, you know, you're going one too far because they it it it's got that grip to it. Um, and you know what I'm talking about. I don't know how to explain it, but uh yeah, it's tactile, yeah. So you know they're so tight, and then when it does let go, instead of going one, you go three, right? Um they just do a really nice job of it, and the glass is good, you know. Is it Soroski? Is it Zeiss? No, it's not, but it's 600 bucks, right?

SPEAKER_01

You know, yeah, no, no, it's impressive. I have uh I have one of my 223 Ackley, and I bought their gen their first generation, the five to twenty-five by fifty-six, shot it, didn't like it, compared it to a vortex. Uh oh, I can't remember the name of it. It's one of the one of the base, I think it's a Viper, Viper. Uh but it's one of their base models that's a five to twenty five by fifty six. Both were kind of on that same realm of like giving you you wanted more. Yeah. And then I picked up the 7 to 35 by 56 because everyone was claiming how much better it was. And the glass, like you said, amazing. Um, I consistently shoot on with mine on my 223 at I don't know, on 16 to 20 power, no we period issues of right getting like the apparition on the outside of the optic. Glass is clear, reticle is solid. Um, I really, really like it. So for like anyone who's looking at getting into something long range for uh a budget optic for five or six hundred bucks, which it 100% bangs above that tier. Yeah, EP2 Gen 2 7 to 35 by 56, I have no problem recommending to people.

SPEAKER_00

I I'm I'm I'm the same way. Amazing optic, really budget friendly. You know, um they they're doing it, whatever they're doing, they're doing it right. And and uh, you know, they're hitting that price point where you don't have to spend an extra thousand bucks on top of that. Um and the the results are the the results are there, you know. They're just really nice clear glass. Um, like I said, is it a Swarovski? No, it is not. I've got Swarovski's, I've got Zeiss. Um, it is not, but those were multiples. In price, you know, and and um I've had zero problem with it. Um it's just been a great optic, and I just I I I enjoy shooting it. And on that rifle, because it's already ridiculously heavy, let's put a great big let's put a great big optic on it, you know, and let's just let's just have some fun with it. And so that's what we did.

SPEAKER_01

What's the uh total weight coming in for that rifle with or without a can?

SPEAKER_00

Uh 17 and a half pounds is what it comes in at. Uh and that is uh without a magazine, unloaded mag. Um the can they were pretty light, they're only adding like what 10 ounces or something, right? So um call it a half a pound. Um and so yeah, but it all all in without without a mag, it's 17 and a half pounds. Um the nice thing about it is there's virtually zero recoil. You can actually watch your impact with a high-powered six millimeter. That's yeah, it's pretty awesome. I love it. I love it. So um, yeah, it's heavy, but it was built that way. It really is a bench rest varmint rifle, if you will. Um, you know, it's designed to shoot varmints at longer distance. Um, it's definitely not a coyote calling rifle. You'd really get tired of packing that thing around.

SPEAKER_01

Um I mean the rifles that I'm packing around are like 15 pounds. I mean, yeah, you can make it.

SPEAKER_00

I used to do that. I used to do that um and a lot. Um, and now I've gotten to where I'm kind of liking these nice, nice little short for especially for calling coyotes, nice short, lighter rifles. Uh, but of course I'm not shooting anything huge either. Uh, you know, 224 Grendel 22 Nozzler, those bolt rifles, by the way, not ARs, because I I kind of love my bolt rifles. Um, and so, you know, I'm not I'm not packing heavy rifles anymore. Um, I think my heaviest is a CZ550 Barmott and 22250 that is a factory rifle, and it weighs somewhere in that 15-pound range. And I pack that thing hundreds of miles on coyote stands. Um, I'm also fatter than I used to be too, so there's that. Um, but you know, I kill I've killed a lot of kill a lot of coyotes with that rifle, but it's heavy and it's big. But yes, it's awesome, right? Um, but I guess I just kind of grew out of or my taste have changed when it came to calling coyotes. Um now varmints, 17-pound rifle. Yeah, let's do that. Absolutely. You know, um, we took that rifle to Nevada, northern Nevada last fall for the varmiter hunter varmiter magazine uh calf killers hunt. Um, and that's was really the first time it was ever out because by the time I finally got it put together, I had literally two weeks to get some sort of a load put together that was on a brand new barrel and um get it out in the field. And so literally two weeks of really quick crude load development. Um and it's it was shooting ridiculously tight, and I don't know why, but it was liked everything. And uh yeah, my furthest shot on a on a badger was 772 yards. My son Wyatt, who was 13 at the time, he just turned 14. Uh 533 on a badger, and then he had several others in that 480, 500 um range with that rifle. Um, and yeah, he's gotten to where he really likes that rifle a lot. So yeah, he kind of stole it, but yeah, whatever. I get a little bit of it.

SPEAKER_01

Now you're just gonna have to you're gonna have to build another one now.

SPEAKER_00

I'm gonna have to build another one. So uh yeah, he he's figured out how much fun that that rifle is and that cartridges, and and yeah, he really, really enjoys it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I'm super glad it's worked out, especially, you know, selfishly me uh looking at you and kind of what you guys have done, right? I want to duplicate it.

SPEAKER_00

Uh well, because I bought your dies.

SPEAKER_01

I know, that's what I was gonna hit on.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah, I bought your 6284 dice that you bought. Yeah, so they're getting they're they're getting they're getting well used.

SPEAKER_01

I know I'm happy. The funny part, I'm probably gonna go buy a new set sometime soon.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. You should. These are reading, so you have to replace them with reading type S. Oh, I'm 100% well. That's all I use.

SPEAKER_01

It's uh the the only thing that seems to for some reason my Lee die does as good or like a better job is my 223 Ackley dies. I have really nice reading type S dies, and my uh my Lee, my stupid Lee dies that I have do great. So that's just that's all I use. But for the majority of it, everything's reading besides that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you know, it's funny because a buddy of mine, he just built a 223 Accley. Oh, I guess maybe it was last summer. Um, and he was looking for dies, he couldn't find any without actually ordering them. His barrel was here, everything was ready, and he ended up buying Lee dies. And I yeah, and he and they do a phenomenal job on a 223 Accley, and he loves them. And he's like, you know, I've been a I've been a reading guy my whole life, and reading was 12 weeks out or something, and he's like, I needed these in a pinch. And he said, Yeah, I don't think I'm gonna order the reading dies because these are doing such a great job. So they make good, they make dies, they make good dies. I don't usually run them, but mostly RCBS. Um reading, of course. Um Widdens, but uh mainly RCBS and Reading.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I ran RCBS a lot, and then Reading's kind of the move now, but kind of to give some backstory and context, and I guess why I'm so interested in this cartridge. Like eight or nine years ago, when I started doing my first Wildcat build, I went with a 243 Ackley and a straight 284 Winchester, which I did a build off of a short action How a 1500. Um, and that was like kind of like right when I was getting into long-range shooting, I filmed a video which is on YouTube of that rifle. Um, I didn't completely know what I was doing, but I did a short action build off of a uh How a 1500 short action, which worked and it did well. But when that or when that barrel got ordered, it was ordered originally from Shillin as a six millimeter 284. I wanted a 243 Ackley and I wanted a six millimeter 284 to hunt with as like basically right, it's basically the predecessor to the 6PRC, which is currently out. Um, right, everyone now is trying to run the 6 PRC, right? You're grabbing the 6.5 PRC case, guys are necking it up to 7mm for the 7 PRCW, or they're necking it down to the 6mm PRC, the 25 PRC, all kinds of stuff in between. Um, but prior to that, right, we had the six millimeter 284, we had the 6.5284 Norma, right? Which was actually uh it's technically the 284 is one of the weird parent cases where all the wildcats are actually more popular than the actual parent case.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's correct.

SPEAKER_01

Right? The 6.5 by 284 Norma, Norma was the one who actually went out and got a Sammy Specked uh for the 6.5 variant. Um, and then right the other portion of it is the straight 284 case where everyone in F class is super, super into that, or they were now a lot of guys are switching to the 7PRCW uh due to brass availability because Lapula has not been making 284 brass. But basically, I bought these dies, got ready to do a six millimeter 284. I had brass, I had everything. I ended up going, screw it, I'm gonna go with a straight 284, which at the time worked amazing for me. I shot the absolute crap out of that. I grabbed all my 284 stuff, sold it off, which I now actually really wish that I would have kept all that stuff. Um but one of the things that you mentioned, um, which I did, I've actually looked at the actions now. So uh, and I I took measurements to actually so we could talk about it. But basically, Cash is you know talking to me, and we've I've talked with him and Eric for years about builds where I'm getting advice from them or running things by them on what's going on. And Cash hits me up and is like, hey, I'm gonna do the six millimeter 284. And I was like, I've been sitting on dies for six years, they've just been sitting in my cabinet, and so uh he bought the dies for me, and over the two-year process, I was constantly getting updates on what was going on. And in the meantime, I did a six PRC build. So when Cash did his six point or six millimeter 284, I did a six PRC build, hated it, took it apart, sold the barrel, turned it into a 223 Ackley, and got a new bolt. And that's what I'm sitting on with that. But uh hearing all the success that Cash has had has gotten me wildly interested in doing a new 284, hopefully some type of switch barrel, where I can have a six millimeter 284 barrel, and I'm gonna try taking it the same concept, but potentially a little further. So the Warwick actions that Cash was talking about, Cash gets the action, hits me up, and it's like, dude, you gotta buy one of these things. So I bought two immediately.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I bought a short action 715 action, and I bought a uh Magnum long action 715 action. So their uh original actions, that's all they had at the time, was just a 715. At least for the short action, uh, the short action ones, the uh I guess it would be the uh like right the uh the magazine lips, I guess, or the bottom of the receiver is opened up, and so it's a notched uh technically it's a notched feed ramp, but it's it's the whole bottom of the receiver, and so technically you can fit into overall cartridge length from basically the back of the bottom of the receiver to the notch, the tip of the notch, is like 3.275. Uh yeah, it's it's I measured it this morning. It's big. So I was looking at the chassis that I have my current short action lightweight 715 action in, and I think there's a chance I might be able to widen the magazine well to take XM mags so that I could potentially run 3.2 inch overall cartridge length. So basically a true XM action.

SPEAKER_00

And see, and you could go a little bit further if you really wanted to for a hunting rifle and do a uh hench forep plate with a follower and get all of that length with the correct potentially, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Like the wide spot of medals, but the bad part, I'm running it. Uh I have it in a chassis system to run for NLR uh the NR NRL like Hunter competitions.

SPEAKER_00

Yep.

SPEAKER_01

But funny enough, I have it all, I have it set up right now as my 708, and I had a I'm having issues with it right now, and I'm trying to figure out what's going on, but I had to miss a competition yesterday. I was gonna go shoot my first match for the year yesterday, and not having good, not having good luck with my current little setup. So that also now is making me like, man, if I could widen that out, I could just I could buy that 284 barrel, have it on order, and yeah. So I'm constantly just scheming. That's it.

SPEAKER_00

Yep. Yep, no, and and that's what we do. We think and we scheme and we yeah, that's we tinker, and that's just what we do. That's not what, right? Especially in the Wildcat world. Um, and and I know Wildcat's not with the internet, um, they're they're becoming more and more popular and more mainstream, and more companies are kind of picking, not major manufacturers, but smaller manufacturers, uh, and they're offering some of this group and stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, like Sherman, great example.

SPEAKER_00

Sherman's great example. Um, you know, the six PRC you mentioned, uh, there's quite a few custom rifle builders that are doing six PRCs. Um, and you can pick up the phone and order one. Yeah, it's gonna it's gonna cost you, but custom rifles do. Uh, but you know, in years past, it was like, okay, well, I need to, I need to buy my own Reamer and I need to find a gunsmith, and I need to source all my stuff. And and so a lot of the Wildcats are really kind of hitting that mainstream, and more people are talking about it. And I think a lot of people uh nowadays are more interested in some of these obscure Wildcats, older cartridges, because let's face it, some of the new stuff is just kind of getting boring, you know. Um and people want something different, you know, in a in a jar full of red MMs, you just want a green one, you know. Um and a lot of people are they're seeing the potential of these cartridges that uh that they've never seen before because of because of social media, because of the internet. And then forcing parts is so much easier and and it's more available now. And it's like, well, you have your choice from how many action makers now? It's endless. Barrel manufacturers, there's lots of them.

SPEAKER_01

Um, you know, there's a lot of good ones.

SPEAKER_00

That's like a lot that was coming out. Um, you know, and so and this and stocks. Um there the world is your oyster. What do you want? And how do you want it to look? And how do you want it to function? Somebody makes it, and they're if they don't now, they're going to. Um, and so it's you know, there's a the whole custom rifle world has just exploded. And then especially on the wildcat side, and and we're seeing people getting really excited about some of these old cartridges that we we we run, you know, 225 Winchester. Um, now it's been you know, it's a cool old cartridge. And Eric started doing more stuff with it, and and now it's starting, people are starting talking about it more. And and the 218Bs and the 22 Hornets really gotten the surgeons in the last fight.

SPEAKER_01

I was literally just at the range the other day and ran into a guy who had a uh martini action original 218B that someone had reamed out to an Ackley, and he was at the range sitting next to me, and he was fire forming it, and he saw me shooting my 223 Ackley, and he was like, Hey, what are you doing? And I explained it to him, and he he had said he had just brought it off Gunbroker, it was his very first wild cat. He thought the whole Ackley thing was so cool. Yeah, uh I thought that was awesome. The guy's retired, he was like 60 years old, he had bought it to tinker around with, and that that's fine. And like I love seeing older people, right? Like old dogs learn a new trick. Yeah, the cooler movement though is seeing the younger generation being like, ah man, like the stuff from Hornady or the stuff from whatever other manufacturers. Uh I want to do something different, yeah. And I want to I want to get peak, I want to get peak for performance out of it. I want to tinker with it like I would a cot rod. Um, yep. I love that. It's it's fun, and you're seeing stuff, you're seeing stuff come out of the woodworks that you never would have. Like I I remember when I was first looking at like crazy six millimeter wildcats, the seven millimeter or sorry, six millimeter Mark IV uh was one I looked at like 10 years ago, and Pacnor had a reamer for it. I was buying a barrel from Pacnor, and they were like, hey, we could do a short, basically a short-throated barrel for you. And I was like, Man, I can't, I don't know where I'm gonna find this this reamer to finish off you know the barrel job. And the six millimeter Mark IV was a seven mag neck down to six millimeter. Yep, and uh that was a big thing, and now seven PRC comes out, you've the six seven power stroke. Immediately, guys went wildcatted it, and now they're they're shooting you know one tens at 35, 3600 feet a second out of a seven PRC case.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's it's it's crazy.

SPEAKER_01

I love it. It's like one of the best times to be uh into shooting right now. Bad for components availability, but uh we're seeing right high BC, high uh grain bullets coming out in every caliber. We're seeing uh people come out like Sierra, love them to death, and they're coming out with now the varmint king line. Yep. Uh so you're seeing bullet manufacturers not only favor the uh realm for precision rifle shooting or for competition stuff, but also putting focus on uh like the recreational shooting, specifically varmint-related stuff and predator hunting, which is awesome.

SPEAKER_00

And when it comes to the bullets itself, you're seeing you know higher BC varmint bullets now than you've never seen before. And and I'll be the first one to say it, yes, Sierra did it first. Sierra's the one that did it first with the six 69 Blitz King. Um, everyone's you know, Hornady came out years later um with a 69 V match or whatever they call it. Um, uh the 62 grain v match. Well, Sierra 64 tip game king was right there. Um, years prior. I've been shooting them for years.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and I know a lot of people don't like them, but the 60 grain tip game kings were also great. I know you guys shoot the 60 games. Yeah, they're great. I should be the 60s and the 60s are awesome.

SPEAKER_00

The 60s are awesome. Um, and you know, like the the 69 uh SBKs. Oh gosh, I think I'm the very first person that ever shot one in a 22 Creedmark. And I you couldn't get it as a component, and I went down and I bought their Sierra Prairie Enemy 223, I think it was, because it was offered in 223 and 224 Valkyrie. And I went and bought 223 ammo and I pulled every bullet out, and that bullet was not even in quick load. I had to build it in in quick design and then it so I could actually use it. I had no BC, I had no, there was a little bit of data out there uh as far as ballistic coefficients and that kind of stuff, but I built it and um I shot it out of a 22 Creedmore. I think I was the very first one to ever do that. Uh, and now everyone's talking, oh, the 69 SBK is the greatest bullet, you know, and it is, it's the greatest bullet. I love it. Um, and now they have the tip game king 69 grain. Um, and so you know, I built my 22 Creedmoor specifically for the 64 tip game king.

SPEAKER_01

All you keep talking, Eric. I'm just gonna I'm gonna walk off for just a second. You keep talking.

SPEAKER_00

You're you're good. So I built my 22 Creedmore for the 64 Tip Game King. That was the bullet that I built that rifle around uh for multiple reasons. It was the right weight. Um and I felt that that would would complement that eight twist and the cartridge itself quite well. Um and then the design of it, um uh the tipped game king basically is just a what it says is a tipped game king, um, and ridiculously accurate, ridiculously explosive, especially at the velocities that I was throwing it at. Um and well, I have a I have a dead 22 Creedmoor in the safe because of it. Um, and it was the funnest 800 rounds I think I've ever shot, not gonna lie.

SPEAKER_01

Um, but you know what was the velocity you guys were getting the the 64s at?

SPEAKER_00

I was shooting them at 3,700 feet per second. Um and I I did that because I knew my action would hold up where others would fail. Um, I used a CZ550 action, uh, which is a a Mauser action that was developed in the 1800s with some improvements, obviously. A controlled feed action, and I knew that that action would take the abuse that a lot of these newer actions just flat wouldn't do. You'd be breaking extractors, you'd be breaking um ejectors, you'd be breaking parts, you'd be locking it up because I was pushing it at 64, 65,000 psi consistently, not every once in a while. I mean every single shot was 64 or 65,000 psi. And you're not gonna do that in some of these some actions, you're just not. You're gonna have a pile of parts with a lock-up action. Um and I pushed it. Everyone talked about how much of a hot rod it was. So I built one. I think that was in 2019, I think, when I built mine. So I built it before most people had ever even heard of such a thing. Um, and and uh I had a lot of fun doing it, you know, and it it's been I haven't fired it in three or four years now. It's just but it was a lot of fun. Uh, but wildcats are a lot of fun, um, you know, and it kind of gets to that point too. Can really dive down the rabbit hole, and it depends on how far you want to dive. How much brass prep do you want to do? You know, some of these are the easy button. 22 Creedmore, that's as easy as a 22 or as a 22k hornet. It really is. You take six Creed brass, you throw it through your die, you neck it down. You don't trim, you camper, you burr, it's done, right? 6284 in a lot of sense is kind of the same way. You neck it down. You might trim depending on the brass, but not much. You camper de burr load. Um, you know, now you start getting into some of these other ones, like 219 zipper. You start with 3030 brass and you have form dies, and you have to bring it down, and you have to do it in steps, and you have to do it in meal. And you know, so how deep down this rabbit hole do you really want to go? Um, there's some wildcats out there uh right now uh that are the easy buttons. The PRC line is another easy button. There's some other ones, and these guys are talking about, oh, you need six or eight thousand dollars worth of custom carbide dice. This is bullshit. I can I can call a few companies I won't name, and I can have them built right now, today, and they'll be on my doorstep in six weeks. So, but do I want to go down that rabbit hole? No, not really. Do I really want to spend all that time building brass for something that already exists in a commercial cartridge? Probably not. Um, you know, uh we have the 24 varmiter, uh, which we've talked about before, which is a 6'8 SPC neck down to six millimeter, uh with a blown blown 30-degree shoulder. It's kind of the easy button. Uh, there is some trimming involved. Uh that's pretty much it. Neck down, trim, load, done. Uh basically one step minus trimming. Um, but you know, it's kind of it's it's pretty easy to do. Uh the Accles are so easy to do. Um, and you just get that extra performance out of it. And really, when it came down to the wildcatting world, uh, it was a bunch of crazy old guys that decided they wanted to, you know, like the 6284, for example. The 284 Winchester came out in like 1962, something like that. Um, you're on mute.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, sorry, something like that.

SPEAKER_00

Uh and so, but then all of a sudden somebody's like, hey, you know, I could take that and eck it down the six millimeter, and we can really have some fun. And that came out in about 1963. Um, and then later on is where the 6'5 came in. Um, because the 6'5 millimeter stuff was European, it really wasn't a US deal. Um, Americans like 30 calibers, that's what they wanted. That's all they wanted. Uh, if it wasn't a 30 cal, it wasn't crap, right? And that lasted forever. Um, you know, all the way up into probably the 70s. Um, a great example of a an amazing cartridge that was a commercial flop is the 6284 Winchester. And why? Because it was a 6.5 millimeter, and no one wanted that, even though it's an unbelievable performer and it's hung on and it's still got a huge following. But the 6.5 millimeter was just not popular at all. Um, and so times have changed, bullet technology's gotten better, we have better bullets now than we've ever had. Um, and and that brings on more innovation and and more ideas of I can take this and I can take that and I can turn it into this or turn it into that. And I have the right barrel technology, I have the right twist rate, I have the right bullet to achieve that. We have the right powders now. Uh unbelievable selection of powders that talking talking about all the components and stuff, Cash.

SPEAKER_01

What uh what are the components that you guys are using right now for the 6284? You guys are what brass are you sourcing? Uh, and then uh what powders are you messing with?

SPEAKER_00

I'm using Peterson brass, Peterson uh 65284 brass that I necked down. Um Peterson is great brass. I absolutely love it. Um and then I'm using Retumbo for the 105s, and then I've been playing around a little bit with RL 155 with the 80 grain, and that's showing really good promise. Um I think I could get a little bit more out of it by changing powders, so I'm really thinking about going H1000 on it just to try it out. Um, but that that that class of powder is really where I need to be on that. But Peterson Brass, um, I just I love Peterson Brass. Um there are differences in it, obviously. I I've always found that Peterson was uh had a little bit less case capacity than some of the other out there.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, like runs thicker.

SPEAKER_00

Yep, yep. And and uh and that's okay, right? You're building the same pressure with less powder, but you need to understand the the difference between brass, that they're not all created equal. You could have three brands of brass, the exact same cartridge, and they're gonna be three completely different water weight averages. Um, and and you need to understand that just because the book says, well, this is your max charge, and you load that in brass with slightly less case capacity, and you're wondering why you're hitting pressure, it's because your case volume is not the same, right? Uh it reloading books doesn't tell you what brass they used, they tell you what test barrel, but they didn't say we use norma brass in a packnor barrel. Um and so you know there's a there's a lot more to it. And then changing the volume of that parent case by going to a a wildcat, whether you're necking it down or you or you're bringing it up, you're changing the shoulder. Your fire form loads may not be the same as your as your your your post-fireform loads because you had to create a false shoulder, which slightly less. Um, and so it's important to understand your brass prep and and and and know all the components and and all the volumes and every in and out of all of your brass. Brass is the most important part piece of the puzzle, uh the way I look at it. But brass press for me is some of the most tedious, boring work that there is, but it's very important to to go through the process, understand what you're doing, measure, remeasure, and and that will solve so many problems. It's just brass. And I I I do, I don't enjoy brass prep. I don't. But and because it's the longest process, um, I'd rather I'd rather seek bullets. I love seeking bullets. Um but brass prep is probably the most important step.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I definitely agree. And uh with with brass prep, I'm kind of a brass prep uh focuser as well. Um are you guys annealing? Yes. And are you doing uh amp or are you doing uh anneal easy?

SPEAKER_00

AMP, yep. Yep. Uh I love the amp annealer. It's actually sitting at Eric's right now. We all kind of went together on it uh because it was ridiculously expensive. Um bad. But it's slow because it's one cartridge at a time. Now they've got some components. I think the newer models, I I forget how old ours is, but um, I think there's some new models that sped it up and have case feeders or something.

SPEAKER_01

Um yeah, the case feeder is kind of like a weird claw design. Uh yeah, the one I the one I have is one of the newer ones, but I mean I can sit and just pluck cases and yeah, I mean I can do a I can do a hundred cases pretty quick.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it goes pretty quick. Once you get everything set right, you know, it's breeze. But I always tell everybody with it with an amp, just be prepared to fry a couple pieces of brass before you get it right. Um, and but once you get it set right, it's it's a breeze, it really is. Uh great annealers. Um, but yeah, we're we yeah, we use an amp annealer. Uh some of these other ones, like the the the annealies, I'd love to have one just because I think it would be so easy and not take up so much space, and they're not very expensive, right?

SPEAKER_01

And uh yeah, I had one, but the consistency was the issue I was finding. And uh guys brought great points that uh basically you can write you can technically heat the exterior of the brass to seven, eight hundred degrees, right? The point it needs to anneal, but there's no real check to make sure you're actually getting that heat all the way through the piece of brass. So, like for me, uh I did I don't know, you know, a handful of firings on 243 Ackley brass, and I was using the anneal easy, and it it got to a point my accuracy went like really bad. Like a gun that shoots normal half-inch groups was shooting two inch groups in 100 yards, and I was like, ooh, like that's really odd. You know, nothing changed, and I I did a bunch of research and I convinced myself it was the annealing, and I went and spent two grand and I got anneal easy or I got an amp annealer. I grabbed that exact same batch of brass that had been, you know, basically really shitty for accuracy. I annealed it, full length sized it, did everything, took the exact same load, it shot a quarter inch again. Yeah, and I was just like, well, you know, if you have a cartridge you're basically just stomping on, you need to take the brass prep extra, extra serious.

SPEAKER_00

And that's the big difference between like the amp annealer using induction versus a flame, where induction, like on the amp annealer, it is even heat all the way around that. There is not a spot that is really hotter or colder than the other. Where a flame and it rolls, um you're gonna get hot spots, you're gonna get cold spots. And one one one side might, you know, one section might be 600 degrees, and the other sections at 700 degrees where it is, and then when it cools, it contracts funky, right? Because one side cools faster than the other. Or it and and there's there's all those, and it's metallurgy, and I'm not a metallurgist, um, but there's all those crazy things that can happen. And uh, like I said, brass prep, brass prep is the most important piece of the puzzle. It doesn't matter how great a bullets you have, it doesn't matter how what how great of primers you have, it doesn't matter how uh expensive of a build you have. If your brass prep sucks, it's the whole thing's gonna suck. That's just kind of the way it is, you know. Um, it doesn't matter, like in football, and you're a football player, you could have the best line in the entire nation, and your quarterback just can't throw the same's ass.

SPEAKER_01

Congratulations on that line. Yeah, you can definitely uh I've had it at least, I don't know, four or five different rifles that I've noticed that some issue with brass prep. Uh when I was figuring out, you know, over the years of how I do my my brass prep, my reloading, uh, where I'd change something and brass prep, and it would have a massive correlation to accuracy downrange, which is it's odd. It's not it's not harped on enough. It's it's really not.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And I'm weird. Maybe I'm weird. When I have a new set of diesel, it has its own shell holder. That's the shell holder that goes with that set of dies. I don't use another shell holder, even though it's still a say an RCBS number 10 for 223 or 221 fireball or whatever it might be. That's the only shell holder that that set of brass or that that set of dies uses. Because the difference in your shell holder makes a difference. And and if you set your dies to a specific shell holder, it needs to stay with that set of dies.

SPEAKER_01

So, and that's and that's a great point. Uh and normally they say that you should use the shell holder from the die manufacturer. Um, because I had a bunch of issues where I was using uh I was using RCBS dies with uh, and I believe it was an RCBS 243 Ackley die, if I'm remembering right. And I was using a Hornity uh shell holder for right normal 308. And uh I sized some brass and I I want to say I had some case head separations, which I immediately was like, wow, that's a big issue. Yeah, and I ended up finding out that basically that shell holder that I had that was the Hornity one was like potentially, I want to say it was like five or ten thousandths shorter in the rim. So basically I was able to size my case that much more. Um so now I just have the uh the coax press. So right the coax press, the right it's it's that same threshold every time.

SPEAKER_00

Yep, yep. But you know, that for me that was always important. So when I get a new set of dies, it gets its own shell holder, and that's that's all it will ever use. Um for the life of that set of dies, um, which life of uh uh the life of dies is pretty pretty strong, yeah. You know, forever. Yeah, yeah, you don't really wear them out. Um at least I've never worn some, I've never worn them out. I I guess it would be possible, but you'd have to do a hell of a lot more than I do on a single stage press. Um, but uh yeah, that's just kind of the way I I've always operated with it when it came to that kind of stuff and brass prepping. And uh even though, like I said, it's not exactly like my most enjoyable job, but it's the most important job. So yeah, and kind of reverting back to you know, wildcatting because we're taking one thing and making it something else, and how far down that rabbit hole you really want to go because the sky's the limit. Um it's all brass prep, it all comes down to brass prep. And it doesn't matter if you're necking something down, you're you're you're necking something up, if you're changing a changing a shoulder, it doesn't really matter what you're doing, you're doing that process, and it needs to be done correctly, or your results are gonna show it. And uh, but that kind of goes for an even commercial cartridges, you know. Um, I'm not saying that wildcats are special because they aren't. I think they are, but they really aren't. But brass prep for a 308 win should be the same process as a six millimeter 284. Keep the consistency and do what works for you and and but make it work and and take the time, spend the time and do it correctly, and you'll see it at the range. I guarantee you'll see it at the range.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it'd be interesting. Maybe at some point, uh you, Eric, and I can do a podcast and talk about kind of how we uh go about doing the reloading stuff. I don't think we have enough time to talk about it right now. We're about at an hour. Uh, but that'd be a cool one. But uh I did want to take note and say uh I saw Eric put a post on Instagram, so it's not a secret anymore. Uh Eric, uh I hope you're listening to this Wednesday morning and just know uh we're both very glad that everything's going great and you're uh having a speedy recovery. Uh hopefully you guys will be out uh varmit hunting in October and uh everything is a speedy recovery. So please, everyone, if you guys haven't already, go check out the varmiter page. And uh, if you guys go on their page, either on Instagram or Facebook, and you guys see the post that Eric just talked about. Uh he had a heart attack the other night and went and had open heart surgery and had a triple bypass, and he's in uh recovery, he's doing great. Uh, he put a real funny photo up of uh basically a coyote doing open heart surgery on someone that looks like him.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So give him a comment, uh send some positive thoughts or prayers his way. And uh again, Eric, uh, we're glad that you were doing uh doing okay. And I hope you enjoyed the podcast.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, definitely. And and you know, Eric's been a big part of uh really my later in my life, my my varminting, um varmant hunting, environment addiction, and and getting hooked up with Eric. And you know, we're we're roughly 10 years apart in age, uh, but we kind of we kind of think the same and we kind of have the same passions and kind of started in the same in a in it kind of the same way, and and and fell in love with varmint hunting as as youth. And it's again, it's followed me my the rest of my entire life, and and I met great people through the varmint world, the predator world, and and uh it's a great community to be a part of uh and a world of information and people willing to help out. And I don't know how many questions I answer constantly on instant messenger or text message, and and and I enjoy doing it because this is what I love to talk about. Um you want to talk about you want to talk about rifles? Hell yeah, let's talk about rifles for an hour. I I can work and wait, right? Um, and it's just one of those things when you're passionate about it and you love what you do. Um that's all you want to talk about. I'm sure I'm sure some people are gonna get tired of me talking about it.

SPEAKER_01

I'm in the exact same boat. That's like I'm sure you're the same way as me, right? We get it any any family function or friend function or something. You connect with someone who's another hunter or they're into shooting and you're just like, we're gonna talk for the next hour.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you know, and and and it's kind of it's it's just really kind of a fun thing. And you know, like my dad got me really started in in environment hunting when I was uh really uh young. Um my grandpa was in World War II and had to pack a rifle with him everywhere he went. And as soon as he got off that boat in Portland, Oregon, he never looked at another rifle and could care less if you ever saw one, another one. Um, and but my dad picked it up from his uncle, who was really good friends with with um Steve Harrett of the 30 Harriet, um, who was just a machinist that liked to shoot rock chucks and decided that hey, I can take a contender and build a barrel and and do a wildcat and have fun and shoot stuff. And so my dad really got really into the varmint world because of his uncle Wayne Wyatt. Um, not reason why I would name Wyatt Wyatt, but there's this that there is that coincidence. Um, and and so I grew up shooting varmints and having a really good time. And one of the things we didn't talk about this one, but we will, because I think it's important. Um, and the difference why I'm a varmint hunter and not a big game hunter.

SPEAKER_01

Um so funny enough, I just talked I just a second ago, I was just like, damn, we didn't hit on that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, uh and so we're gonna hit on that real quick. And and let's just be honest, I don't know how to hunt big game because I've never done it. And the reason why is growing up farming, when everybody else was gonna go to deer camp or elk camp or whatever, I was sitting in a tractor digging sugar beets or potatoes or thrashing grain or beans or plowing fields, whatever. Our work didn't our our work didn't stop. And harvest was the most important. You just didn't take off and go elk elk hunting. But in the spring and in the summer, and it was spring varmints, and I lived right on the Snake River Canyon, and I could get my water done, whatever we needed to do, and I could go shoot rock chucks and I could go shoot ground squirrels, and in the winter, feeding cows, you know, kind of started with with shooting a random coyote out of the pickup out of the window of an old Fort pickup to learning to call coyotes. And so my whole journey, and the reason why I'm a varmint hunter, is because the way I was brought up and the way I was raised, and because of farming and that, because that took precedence. Spring varmints and winter coyotes, that's what I did. That was my recreation, and so I don't know how to hunt big game, and I don't think I'm a lesser person because of it. Um, I always had a freezer full of beef, pork, and lamb. Why the hell would I need an elk? You know, um, and so and I don't have to I don't have to eat coyotes and rock chucks and stuff, and you know, I don't have to do that. You know, pred other predators and birds of prey, they need a free male. So that, you know, it's my charity work.

SPEAKER_01

No, it's good. Glad you touched on that because it was uh it was funny. Cash said it the other day, and I immediately thought about it and then thought about myself. And when I was right or 12 or 13, I went to high school at 13. Uh basically that's the legal age in the state of California. You can start hunting big game is the age of 12. So I got basically one year of eighth grade where I was able to go big game hunting, and then I immediately went into high school football, college football career, and for like seven years, eight years, I really didn't big game hunt, but I crushed it with calling coyotes and going out and going predator hunting. And then in California we have hogs. So for me, hog hunting was a huge deal. Um, but it is not the same as like, and granted, I prior to me saying this, because uh a good buddy of mine will probably listen to this and he's gonna say that's bullshit. Uh, some guys do hunt hogs the same way that people hunt, you know, elk and deer and shit in western states. It's normally from a guiding standpoint, right? Guys set up, you know, spotting scopes, big glass, they're trying to find hogs long distance, and they're picking them up at brush canyons where basically they'll take you know uh almost beds, they cut beds into like the side of the hills and stuff. That's not the normal thing for like the average pig hunter in the Central Valley in California. Normally it's you're either on public or private property, you're cruising around at daybreak or uh sunset, hogs are moving at that time, you're shooting them out of the truck, you're hopping out, proning out, right? It's it's kind of a shit show. It always turns into a cowboy thing. So that for me at a young age, that was like the adrenaline, finding guys for running hog dogs. And uh, I really didn't get into big game hunting until now. And then still every rifle I build and you know, guys that I'm focusing on talking to, right, are all wildcats that uh for the most part fall back on varmint hunting, coyote hunting, stuff like that. So when you mentioned it, uh I remember stopping you and being like, damn, I didn't realize how I grew up really dictated how uh you know, as an adult my hunting focus is uh now. So it it's a cool concept. Uh right, if you're uh if you see some local guy who's into varmint hunting, pick his brain. Maybe it's a maybe it's a similar setup, right? Where uh like for you it was a livelihood thing. For me, it was just right convenience of sports growing up as a kid. Um, but super cool story, regardless.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yep. And you know, we all have our story and how we got started. And and I know good friends of mine that I mean they're they they live for for hunting the game, whether it be with a uh a bow or a rifle. I mean, they they live for it. And and and I absolutely 100% support them and whatever they they needed me to help them haul out a deer, call me, I'll be there, right? I'm not afraid of that. Uh, but uh, you know, it's it's the whole difference of how we were we I was brought up versus other people, uh and my lifestyle. This is where how it molded me, and uh our livelihood molded me to be become a varmint and predator hunter. Um, and I love it. Uh I wouldn't I wouldn't change it for the world.

SPEAKER_01

Awesome. Well, Cash, I really do appreciate you coming on and talking to us about the six millimeter 284. Hopefully, uh at some point this year we can all meet up, right? When none of us were kind of expecting that crazy news with Eric. But again, very excited to hear that you're having a great recovery, Eric. Um, and uh maybe we'll make something happen later this year if you guys are going to be in southern Idaho for some reason.

SPEAKER_00

I think we need a I think we need a good badger hunt. I think that'd be super fun. Uh I love hunting badgers, it is lots of fun. Spot and stock stuff. I love it. It's it's it's a rush. It really is a rush.

SPEAKER_01

What's that? I'm not sure you're gonna get me to do that. I've done it before, but ah like you gotta make you uh you gotta make sure that badger's real dead.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so I got like real quick, I gotta tell you the story. A few years ago, Eric and I were together, and I shot this badger at like 200 yards with my 243 AR-10, and he kind of kind of lurched, and I didn't know if I hit him very well. And then I was getting ready for a second shot and down the hole he went. So we go out there and we can see him kind of down there. And anyway, I could I reached in, I couldn't reach him. So Eric goes back to his forerunner, grabs his shovel, we start digging around. I finally get halfway down in this freaking hole, and I get a hold of him barely, and I'm starting to pull on him, and I get a little bit more, and I start pulling on him. Well, I start feeling resistance like resistance. And I I told I told Eric, I said, listen, I'm I'm gonna basically roll out of this freaking hole. I don't even know if I'll be able to stand up. If this son of a bitch is alive, you just shoot until it falls. It was dead, but um, it's a little nerve-wracking sticking your hand down a freaking badger hole. Um yeah, but I haven't been bit yet. So there's that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's a that's a good story. So uh, right, California badgers are not uh not a normal game animal. Technically, they're a fur bearer, they do have a season, and it's like from like November, I think into January. We're way past uh statute of limitations on this, so I don't mind sharing the story. So uh the first time I ever saw a badger, I was a kid, and we were somewhere in the Central Valley of uh California, and I was like seven years old, eight years old, something like that. But my dad had just gotten me a center fire uh 17 HMR, and it was a Thompson Center, I think it was the encore, it was the smaller, the smaller version. Um, and we were driving down uh a ranch road. I'm like eight years old, sitting in the bed of this pickup, right? We're stopping every time we'd see a little, you know, group of ground squirrels. I'm shooting them off the bed of the truck. And uh we stop and someone's like, Man, what's that up on the hill? And this badger's peeking up out of a hill looking down at us, and it's about 80 yards. And basically my dad's buddy's like, I think it's a badger. And my dad's like, can you shoot it? And I just said, Can I? And my I just I think my dad just said yeah, and I crooked uh you know, cracked a shot off and I hit this thing in 80 yards, like right between the eyes as a little kid. And and just like you were you were explaining the last time we talked, you know, why it's uh why it's a crack shot. At the time as a kid, I was a really good shot for being as young as I was, and I did, I center punched it right between the eyes, and it kind of just slunked back in the hole. And my dad was like, Did you hit it? And I'm like, I'm pretty sure I hit it. So we go walking up there, and this thing was in the hole, basically like face forward, and it was way down in the bottom, basically like right where you're you get an arm down this thing. And uh, I remember my dad being like, My dad's you know, big, muscular, you know, uh at the time retired cop, but like big hardcore dude, ex-SWAT guy. And uh he he at the time was like, dude, are we sure this thing's dead? I don't know. So he has me plug it, like basically point blank from the hole, bang, right? 17 HMR, it's dead.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And he reaches down there and he grabs it, and he was like, dude, I swear I felt resistance. And so he ends up walking up, walking down to the truck, let's go of it, walks back down to the truck, walks back up, grabs a 38 special, shoots it, reaches down the hole, grabs it, and pulls it out. And uh, and we don't badgers aren't a normal thing in California. So my uh I remember my dad and his buddy who were there, right? The ones actually facilitating this whole thing after telling me to shoot this thing. Uh the entire time they were like, these things are so tough, man. They're the they're like the the cousin of the Wolverine and all this stuff. It was hilarious. And as a little kid, I'm watching this whole thing happen and I'm thinking this thing's like, like, are bullets glancing off this thing? Is it bulletproof? And I'm thinking it's the craziest thing ever. Uh so then, you know, fast forward as an adult, you know, getting environment hunting, going into you know, Nevada to go shoot them up by uh Battle Mountain and stuff. Uh, I've reached down a couple holes to go grab them. And yeah, uh every time it's always, you know, someone kicks your boot or something or grabs you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah. Well, you know, badgers have so much extra skin, right? So when you're pulling, and then because they can really elongate, you know, they're in the muscleage family, so they're the same family as a as like the as a weasel and a ferret, you know, because so they they got lots of extra skin. So when they it's amazing to see how big of a badger comes out of such a small hole. So when you're pulling on them and all that extra skin's kind of rolling and you're pulling against it, yeah, it's resistance, but it feels like they're trying to claw themselves further down in the hole, it's freaky. And if you've never done it, you should at least once to experience it. But yeah, it's it's it's kind of nerve-wracking.

SPEAKER_01

And um so after I've stuck my hand down a couple different holes, I saw someone. Uh, and I'm not sure if you guys have ever tried it. You guys have a lot more experience doing this than I do with badgers. Um, have you guys ever tried grabbing like just a length of bobbed wire or barbed wire and uh sticking it down the hole and like twisting it to try to get it? It doesn't work very well.

SPEAKER_00

It doesn't work very well. No, it they're their hide so thick.

SPEAKER_01

You guys are gonna try it for some reason. Now you guys have first hit.

SPEAKER_00

No, I've trust me, I've tried I've tried every which way to get one out without sticking my hand down there. Uh and I end up sticking my hand down there. Um, but no, they're their hide so so so thick, um it's it's ridiculously thick, and you and barbed wire is not gonna even penetrate it. You're not gonna do it. And that that oily musk just kind of makes it roll off.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, like slick as well.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Well, sounds like uh maybe in a few months we'll all get together and there'll be a video of someone sticking their hand down a badger hole.

SPEAKER_00

There should be. There should be. It it should be Wyatt. That's what I that's what I'm gonna. That's that's who I'm electing. Yeah. He hasn't done it yet. He hasn't done it yet. He needs to. And he's a skinny kid, he can fit down the hole, so we'll just send him down there to get it. Yeah, he doesn't know it'll be the surprise.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I'd see that's uh that's a rite of passage.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think it is. I think it is. He needs to quit hitting them so solid to where they just fall over where they stand. He needs to shoot one not very good, so it goes down the hole and is mad and still alive. That's where the fun begins.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's where you need a little terrier. They can start right going down the hole as you're trying to dig it out.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, Mike Corgi's he's laying over there on the couch. He ain't doing that shit. I can I can tell you.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, the dude is mine.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, he's worthless as hell, but we love him.

SPEAKER_01

Again, I appreciate it, Cash. Um, if you seeab, we'll call it. And uh guys, and Cash, correct me if I'm wrong. I just want to make sure I get everything right. Things to check out. Uh Barmiter magazine, yeah. Uh the small caliber uh small caliber forum.

SPEAKER_00

Smallcaliberform.com. Uh and that's where you're gonna find a lot of inform most all information on the 24 Barmiter. Uh, and then you're gonna see a lot more of what we do with Barmitor magazine uh because the social media they love us and they yeah, they decide to strike us. So that stuff you'll you'll be able to see more of the uh the uncensored stuff on small caliber form, uh small caliber shop or smallcaliberstore.com where you can get some awesome t-shirts, wear your cartridge. Eric's got I don't know how many 150, 200 different designs on there now. Um t-shirts of anything and everything you can think of. And then, of course, Barminer Magazine magazine on Facebook, Instagram. I think he's got a Twitter page, but I don't think he really updates it much. I'm not on Twitter, so I have no idea. Um yeah, uh check out the socials.

SPEAKER_01

Awesome. I'll also include them below. And if you guys are watching this on YouTube, uh Barminer Magazine's YouTube page will be tagged in this as well. Um if you guys are listening uh on one of the other platforms like Spotify or Apple Podcast, um, all of it'll be down in the link below or in the description below, and you guys can check the links out. And uh, Cash, if you're good with it, I can link your Instagram uh so people can message you or your Facebook. Um awesome. Thanks, guys. Awesome.

SPEAKER_00

Hey, thank you so much, appreciate it.