How Cruise Sustainability Affects Your Vacation with Joel Balsam

We sit down with travel journalist Joel Balsam to explore what sustainability really looks like in cruising today. From Norway’s electric-first mindset to Havila’s hybrid ships powered by biogas and massive battery systems, we unpack how innovation is reshaping the industry.

We share how this directly impacts your experience—quieter, near-silent sailing through pristine landscapes, more intentional dining that reduces waste, and protecting the wildlife and destinations you came to see.

We also get honest about the pros, limits, and future of greener travel. If you want to cruise more consciously without sacrificing the experience, this episode shows why it matters—for your trip now and the future of travel.

Follow Joel’s travels and read his fantastic articles on Instagram and his website: 

• Joel’s website: https://joelbalsam.com/
• Instagram @joelbalsam: https://www.instagram.com/joelbalsam/ 

Transcript

Mikkel (00:00)

Hello and welcome. We have a special guest today. We're super excited to have Joel Balsam on today talking about a very, very topic.

Dan (00:10)

Welcome, Joel. Thank you for taking time to be with us today. Tell everybody a little bit about yourself.

Joel Balsam (00:16)

Sure, yeah, hi everyone. I'm a Canadian freelance journalist. live in Rio Janeiro, Brazil. I decided to move here two years ago. was traveling around the world for a long time doing stories. I write for Lonely Planet, National Geographic, BBC, a lot of the places as a freelancer and I just decided to base myself here and yeah, I often go on small ship cruises so happy to be here and talk about it.

Mikkel (00:41)

I love it. You can feel and see— if anybody's watching us on YouTube— you can see the joy and radiant happiness in your face. So I love that. And I know you're so passionate about travel. So we're so happy to have you here as the expert on today's topic of sustainability.

Dan (00:41)

That's awesome. Right. So it's interesting.

Joel Balsam (01:00)

Yeah, I’ll do my best.

Mikkel (01:02)

Yeah, thank you. Thanks.

Dan (01:04)

So Joel, you went on Havila Voyages. So we've never been on that cruise line. Tell our listeners a little bit of your opinion and what you thought of the cruise line and kind of a brief overview.

Joel Balsam (01:17)

Well, it was my first time in Scandinavia. It's a Norwegian cruise line and super refined as you expect, I guess. You know, clean lines and the furniture... and the whole experience was extremely smooth, professional,

Dan (01:25)

Right.

Joel Balsam (01:32)

about this topic that we're talking about. I felt like they gave us a lot of the pros and cons, and they generally sail the coastline of Norway.

Dan (01:40)

And approximately how big is the ship?

Joel Balsam (01:42)

So the ship I went on was the Polaris ship, which was made in 2023. It can handle about 600 passengers, so a lot bigger than some of the other small ones, and it's 400 feet long.

Mikkel (01:57)

Before we get into the technical details of everything and, most importantly, why it's affecting everybody listening and why sustainability matters and how it affects your cruise experience and your travel experience, because you said it was your first time in Scandinavia, and I absolutely love Scandinavia. What were your impressions of Norway in general from this trip?

Joel Balsam (02:20)

I'm glad you asked that because as soon as I got off the plane, I'm picked up in a NIO electric car; never tried this. And then the lady's like, "Watch this!," or something and then I get a massage in the back of the car. The point of me bringing this up is that you know 30 percent of all the cars are already electric in Norway, and

Mikkel (02:34)

Whoa. Okay, so good. Yeah.

Joel Balsam (02:43)

97% of the new ones are electric. So they really are putting in the effort with the sustainability. They do that because they produce a lot of oil as a matter of fact. So they have money to spend on their people, but they are hoping they know that the oil is not gonna last forever. So they're trying to come up with some other backup plans.

Mikkel (03:06)

Yeah, that's interesting. And I recall Norway struck gold, so to speak, when they did find oil. Before that, they were not as rich of a nation. And it is interesting— I know they give tax breaks on electric vehicles too, like major tax breaks, because we have friends that live in Norway. So we talk about the finances of living there often.

Dan (03:06)

Interesting.

Joel Balsam (03:26)

Yeah, and guess in the US you wouldn't have certain electric cars because they have the ban on Chinese-made cars, but they wouldn't have that same problem.

Dan (03:34)

Correct.

Mikkel (03:34)

Yeah. So that was an interesting introduction to Norway as soon as you hit the ground. And where were you traveling to from the airport? And was that to start your Havila cruise?

Joel Balsam (03:46)

I traveled to Bergen from Brazil and I just got a taste of this cruise. So I was just there for a few days and I went to Trondheim. But the ship actually goes for 12 days all the way to Kirkenes, where it kind of, it goes around the curve of the country.

Mikkel (04:03)

It is interesting with Havila—and I know Hurtigruten works in a similar way, because Norwegian ships have an agreement with the government, not to get too into it, but—they're also passenger ships. So you could have like day cruisers on, but it is interesting because we are cruising with Havila over the summer. And I know we talked to you about this we met a couple of months ago and you were so helpful with your insights for how the trip went and more about the itinerary.

But the interesting thing that is kind of beneficial for cruisers is that they can mix and match the amount of days. can go three days, six days, 12 days, and kind of hop on and off when you want. So you did three days, and you started in Bergen, and you got off in Trondheim, you said? 

OK, so this might be a good segue into the ship you went on and talk to us a little bit about why you were focused on the carbon neutrality of it and why sustainability is at the forefront of the cruise lines' minds, as you saw it.

Joel Balsam (05:02)

Sure. Yeah, I mean, I understand cruising—I think of the big cruises especially—you know, they've never been more popular, but also they are quite damaging to the environment. Per person, it is more damaging than take a flight in terms of carbon emissions and not here to guilt, you know, but these are things that we could... and I was excited actually, it was at a conference that I met you at few years ago when I went to the conference and the keynote speaker was talking about how cruise companies are coming up with new technologies to make it more sustainable, and I know I think we can do that in everything that we do. We can still enjoy our travels and also come up with some cool technology. So this ship in particular, I was on the first-ever carbon-neutral voyage, as they call it. And impressed— I've been impressed learning about it. It did seem

Dan (05:48)

Yeah

Joel Balsam (05:50)

fueled with biogas and batteries. So for 30 minutes of the voyage, we were completely on batteries. So there was no smoke coming out of the top. There was just quiet. I mean, if you're in the machine room, there's like compressors, but up in the top is remarkably quiet. 

And, you know, that's a major breakthrough in terms of technology because the fuel that these ships use, as you can imagine, to move creates a lot of carbon emissions. So this was a first for that.

Mikkel (06:19)

I pictured like... when you said "battery"... and I know about batteries on cruise ships, of course. It's a hot topic over the years... But I pictured somebody opening the back of a remote control and you see AAA batteries and like was it was it big F batteries or yeah did they take you to see the batteries?

Dan (06:32)

Great. 

Joel Balsam (06:39)

They did, yeah, I went into the bottom and that was one of my favorite parts actually. They're just, they're blocks. They're not like little batteries in the back of the remote. But they're kind of like, if you ever been to like a Catholic cemetery where they have the bodies in the drawers kind of thing, so there's a lot of...

Dan (06:55)

Yeah.

Joel Balsam (06:56)

but a huge, in a full room of, and it was, I think, 68 tons is the weight of the battery that they have. So it's pretty amazing, and amazing how Norway in general is using it. I learned that they already have electric ferries that run on batteries that they just use. They can't use that for these because

Mikkel (06:56)

Yeah. Wow. Oh my gosh. Okay.

Joel Balsam (07:15)

they go away, they go off the coast. The ferries kind of stay as close as possible to coast and they also recharge with magnets on the coast. This one can't do that. They're thinking about all the the battery that they have, they needed to run and they don't run it to like, to the end. They don't want it to break, just think, you know? they only want...

Mikkel (07:23)

Wow. Right, right, right. 

Dan (07:33)

Right. Right.

Mikkel (07:39)

We're on empty like that Seinfeld episode that Kramer's like, "How far can we take this vehicle?" So you said something interesting that I think is going to matter to everybody listening that you thought it was quiet. It was quieter from usual cruise ships you've been on. Can you say more about that?

Joel Balsam (07:41)

Ha!

Sure, certainly when it was running, when the captain said, "Now we're about to go battery," I went up to the top and I heard it. Nothing, I heard nothing. I saw snow-dusted mountains in Norway, but it was very quiet, which would be cool to have all the time. I mean, certainly been on a lot of boats and kind of get loud at nighttime too, so,

Dan (08:15)

Right.

Joel Balsam (08:16)

when you're trying to sleep. So that was a cool factor just for a general experience and also good to know that it was doing a little better for the environment than normal.

Mikkel (08:25)

We have a Prius for many years, and it is amazing. It kind of reminds me what you were saying of the switch when it goes from gas to the battery power. And you really can hear it. I mean, sometimes you get out of the car and you forget it's on. The car will tell you it's on, that you left it on, but you forget it's on because it's so quiet. So it sounds like a similar experience.

Joel Balsam (08:43)

It is. They said actually that the ship is a hybrid ship. So it runs either biogas, or what’s interesting is they have a big tank and they put rotten fish or cow manure or whatever, and they capture all of the carbon dioxide and all of the methane, which methane is a big problem when the cows fart, they talk about it, they capture that and then they turn it into fuel, which I think is amazing. 

So they can use either biogas in this one or Liquid Natural Gas, which is becoming more popular in a lot of other ships as well as something that reduces up to 20, 30% the carbon emissions. So they can kind of use them in the same tank. But this one was on the biogas as well as the batteries.

Mikkel (09:05)

Yes. Exactly.

Dan (09:08)

Right, right.

Mikkel (09:21)

Right?

Right, or people will say "LNG" a lot, abbreviated too for the kind of fuel. Yeah.

Dan (09:33)

No, they...

Yeah, they don't make the biogas on board. That's... No, but I'm thinking like not the cafeteria waste or anything like that. Yeah.

Mikkel (09:42)

I'm thinking like cows on the top, on the Lido deck.

Joel Balsam (09:51)

I mean, no. No. It has to go with these special tanks and actually, there's not enough biogas in the world to just willy nilly use them and they have to kind of they have to get it on there. Norway makes also some in South America, but then you'd have the cost of bringing it from South America. So that actually is a problem why the ship that I went on was the only one that's going to be doing that battery and biogas for a little while.

They aren’t going to be able confidently do it until 2028. That's what they say. Mainly because they don't have enough of the biogas.

Mikkel (10:27)

It is interesting that just coincidentally you live in South America and they are getting some of this from South America. So I like that you're really threading the needle here.

Joel Balsam (10:32)

Hmm.

My ears perk up, but actually Brazil just made a big deal with the European Union. Norway's not part of the European Union, but, anyway, that could be a viable thing. But yes, I learned whenever you talk about different gases or fuels, you have to factor in many different things to say if this one's better for the environment or not. So, for example, if you have to ship it really far, it creates other… you took gas to get there, right? So you have to factor that in holistically. And that's why they were also saying, you know, you can use different things to try and figure it out. Because at this point there's no magic potion but the biogas is a major improvement on the LNG. And the LNG was a major improvement on the other guy. So it was cool to see that they're trying.

Dan (11:00)

Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Mikkel (11:02)

Hmm.

Dan (11:21)

Hmm. Are they planning to roll this out to the rest of the fleet? Or was this like a test?

Joel Balsam (11:26)

Yeah, all of their ships they're planning to do this and they will be running the LNG and the batteries in the meantime, but 2028 was the biogas and the batteries. But in fact, they're forced to. Norway is making it that anyone who sails on the fjords will have to have zero-emission vessels. There's different years, but Havila, because of their size has until 2032 to make it this way. they're trying to be a bit ahead of. Yeah, they're a bit ahead of schedule with the 2028, but there's also Hurtigruten. 

Mikkel (11:50)

Not too far off. Yeah.

Joel Balsam (11:55)

They're doing other things. They have biodiesel and batteries. They're hoping to make something that puts solar panels on the sails— which I thought would be pretty cool— by 2030 as well. So these Norwegians are really forcing it. But also the government is saying you have to. It's such a delicate area of the world that we want to preserve. It's so beautiful, the fjords of Norway. Same could be said about Alaska. And that's especially a place where we should say, you know what, maybe we should really not try and blow too much black smoke into these areas.

Dan (12:28)

Yeah.

Mikkel (12:30)

To your point, Viking Cruises is also Norwegian, and they have solar panels on even the river cruise ships, on top of them to help with the energy. So it is an interesting point and a benefit of cruising in Norway. I mean, you can feel better about what your choices are as a traveler and a resident of the Earth.

Joel Balsam (12:52)

Yeah, and when you see these beautiful landscapes, I think part of the idea is people are gonna wanna make more of a change in their life when they see these. I did another cruise—I went through the Northwest Passage with Adventure Canada years ago, and you're seeing polar bears, and you're seeing this super extremely delicate area, and that was their idea. They say, you were bringing people here, and they wanna, yeah, w’ere gonna want to go home and maybe protect this beautiful area of the planet.

Dan (13:00)

Mm-hmm. As far as you're talking about Norway, are there any other countries that are out there that are really pushing sustainability specifically in the cruise industry?

Joel Balsam (13:24)

Not as much. As far as I know, I think is leading it. Everyone is trying to do something from the biggest cruises from Carnival and Royal Caribbean, they have said they're putting the LNG. But at the same time, they're making bigger and bigger ships, which needs more fuel.

Also, there's other factors. There's, you know, noise pollution under the water that with these big ships, especially can harm fish or waste that gets, you know, from using the toilets on the cruises. just went on a small cruise in the Galapagos and I learned that they treated the human waste on board to a point like 90% before it goes back in the water, which is amazing. So they are starting to really come up with this technology. 

Also, desalinating the water from the ocean and then you can drink on board, which is pretty cool. So I'm impressed that they're trying. So I think it is more a worldwide thing that they're conscious that it does pollute more than flying and they want to get everybody on board, so we can all be doing this years into the future.

Dan (14:21)

Right.

Mikkel (14:23)

I think it's an interesting thing with the cruise industry because many people are diehard cruisers and they will die on that sword. And obviously we love it too. We love small ships. Part of it is sustainability. Part of it is just obviously a preference of the way of travel. But with the cruise industry, what people don't see and is kind of a silent killer of all of this is the maritime industry as a whole and shipping and just like the Wild West out there for laws across the board. 

Like there aren't any, you know, it's international waters. And I think a really positive thing about the cruise industry is that they are pumping research dollars into helping the industry as a whole. And hopefully, that will help all shipping, all vessels on the water, not only cruise ships. 

So I think people, you know, shouldn’t feel bad about wanting to cruise. Obviously, it's gonna happen. People are gonna fly. People are gonna run their cars and everything. But the importance of this conversation is making good choices and also just being informed so you can speak intelligently to other people, even if it's your family at the Thanksgiving dinner table, who's going to give you crap about going on a cruise because it's not good for the environment. And then you can say, well, that's not true. It's not the best thing for the environment, but eating beef isn't really either. So you can speak to it because of what you're sharing with us. So I'm grateful for that.

Joel Balsam (15:48)

Yeah, thanks for, I didn't know that about how the research dollars is going to help the industry as a whole. That's very important, you're right. Yeah, we get everything by shipping and now with events in the world that maybe hopefully will be over by the time we have this gets posted, but the oil and gas has become more expensive. So one of the reasons that biogas isn't as widespread as they'd like is because they're just like, you know what, I can just use normal fossil fuels, it's cheaper. 

But if it becomes more expensive, say, hey, you know what, we actually should start burning some cow manure and some raw fish. So fish, because that's going to save us money. That's going to really convince people. And it doesn't have to be the more expensive way. Even solar panels have gotten cheaper over the years. It doesn't have to just doing it just out of guilt. It can actually hopefully save you money, especially if gas goes up. It seems like Norway really is leading the charge on that too. I'd like to see that.

Mikkel (16:21)

Yeah.

Dan (16:21)

Right.

You talked about solar panels. You talked about the different types of fuels. Is there anything else out there like any other sustainability measures, that you know of?

Mikkel (16:41)

Yeah.

Joel Balsam (16:54)

We have to be careful I think with a lot of the stuff for the famous green washing sometimes they say "Oh, sure, recycling." Okay, it's better or not using plastic cups also should be standard. But, yes, those are things that they did on the ship that they tried. They also talked about really reducing people's waste by not having that like 24-hour buffet. So they're trying to keep food waste

Mikkel (16:58)

Mm-hmm.

Dan (16:58)

Hmm.

Joel Balsam (17:14)

to 75 grams per guest per day and they actually are down even lower than that. So the food was quite good but it was on a small little plate. You could get more if you want but rather than just like having it out there, throwing it out. So that is something that they're also trying to think about, which I thought was cool.

Mikkel (17:30)

Can you talk a little bit more about the dining experience on board? Because know that there's a group we're a part of on Facebook about Havila Voyages. And there was like an uproar that a waiter was misinformed and told them can only get one dish. And I think the miscommunication was like, well, one to start, because they are trying to reduce the food waste.

Were there a lot of Norwegians on board? Was there a lot of Americans? It's a cultural thing, like the portion control and how much you eat and the food waste. I think, I don't know, nobody come at me, but it's a wasteful society we live in, as Americans. You're Canadian... as North Americans, right?

Joel Balsam (18:04)

Thank you.

Well, I mean, I think you also eat more. Like it's not necessarily wasting it, but the, yeah, I honestly did notice that the first meal we had, it was like a fish with caviar and sauce. No, was, it was nice, but it was like,

Mikkel (18:13)

Totally.

Joel Balsam (18:25)

small and there was not like bread or whatever and I was like, "Huh, it is kind of small." I think you could ask for more, the portions were smaller. It's the Scandinavian style. But certainly, yeah, with breakfast, it's like, you know, I want this one, this one. The little ones, like the little

bacon, little eggs, but then you can get as much as you want. You just bring it to your table, which is fine. And a lot of smoked salmon, which is very Norwegian. At least I think of going to Costco growing up.

Mikkel (18:51)

Norwegian raised salmon, yeah.

Joel Balsam (18:54)

So this ship had the normal restaurant. They had a bar upstairs where you could kind of just view out the glass windows and a they had a very nice restaurant as I was fortunate enough to try one night with a sommelier and we tried king crab, which I had never had was a gigantic crab. Like it's a real king and it, you know, it's a real king and it was like so much meat on it. Like I, you know, normally you have to

Mikkel (19:15)

Wow.

Dan (19:17)

Ha

Joel Balsam (19:22)

work hard but no, it was great. So I liked the dining at that restaurant.

Mikkel (19:27)

So in the dining, are there straws? Speaking of sustainability. I doubt it too. But sometimes they have the agave straws, paper straws, which are the worst because they just dissolve in your mouth. But, yeah, well, it was funny when you were saying other practices they have like on board reducing plastic cups or not having single-use plastic at all. It's funny. You have to be aware of things like, well, maybe they don't have straws or plastic cups. But then you go to the

Joel Balsam (19:30)

I doubt it, I doubt it.

Mikkel (19:52)

souvenir shop on board and then they give you a plastic bag. So like, hopefully there's a paper bag, like talking about that kind of greenwashing just for the PR aspect of it, you know? 

Joel Balsam (20:02)

I think a cool thing maybe about it is we don't have to pick. You know? We don't have to choose. I generally believe that we can, as societies just, you know, we don't need the plastic, like we can make better paper cups. Maybe they do invest more in paper straws, but to make them better. But...

Dan (20:16)

Yeah

Joel Balsam (20:18)

You know, it's nice that on the ship you don't have to think about, I didn't think about the straws, I was just getting it. I'm not super insanely picky about these things. But I was impressed at the more macro level with the technology that they're really trying to, because that, know, but of course the little plastic straws are important.

I also want to mention was no entertainment–no disco or no circus. They were trying to be, I guess in the level of expedition style, but they're really like your views out the windows. And then you can do activities when you go on land. I did some winter kayaking and did a sauna and jumped in the water. That was cool. But yeah, on board. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was cool. I had really got the sauna that jumped in the really cold water and then came back out.

Mikkel (20:56)

Oh, that's very Scandinavian.

Dan (20:58)

Yeah.

Mikkel (21:00)

Yeah.

Joel Balsam (21:06)

But all in the dark because it was also only five hours of sunlight in the day.

Dan (21:11)

That's a great, yeah.

Mikkel (21:11)

Right, and that's the other unique thing. They're in Norway year-round, from what I understand. It's not just seasonally when it's warm out. And I'm guessing the Northern Lights is a big thing. Were you able to catch a glimmer?

Joel Balsam (21:22)

I didn't, it was cloudy, but they had a phone that's always ready if, you know, if they ever want to see the Northern Lights and then they announced it on the phone right to your room. So that would have been cool. It was just there for a few nights. I didn't get a chance to see that, but it was cool. It was very calm and with seeing the snow, I didn't feel like I needed a party on board. was, and they, it was not depressing even though it's dark. Like when you go to the towns, they have these little twinkly, glowy,

Mikkel (21:24)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Balsam (21:51)

They all have good lighting. Everyone's house is yellow, glowy. There's like star paper lanterns. So it wasn't depressing even though it dark.

Mikkel (21:53)

Yeah.

Dan (21:53)

Hahaha.

Mikkel (22:01)

It forms that hygge— H Y G G E. That word that's like coziness. They've made shows and books about this. It was very trendy a couple of years ago in the United States, but like it's a very Norwegian, like warm feeling. There's no direct translation for it in English, but it sounds like you were feeling that during, during the winter.

Dan (22:22)

Right.

Joel Balsam (22:24)

Yeah, I liked how you avoided the pronunciation. I also don't know the pronunciation. But yes, hi-gee, hi-gee? I don't know. like that. 

Mikkel (22:27)

I'm pretty sure it's something like hoog. Yeah, it's something like that. Also, what is the official pronunciation? Is it Havila?

Joel Balsam (22:39)

I also don't know. I think so, that didn't sound, it didn't sound. What was interesting was when I did the excursion, I went to a place called Ålesund, and it's spelled by an A, it's spelled with an A, but it's pronounced like an O.

Mikkel (22:39)

We don't know. Okay, we don't know. The way you say it, I don't know. I can like picture it in my head.

Yeah, yeah, the spelling. Also, we learned, we've been to Norway a few times by land, that anything that ends in the— it has a name— the ø with the line through it, is an island.

Dan (22:54)

Yeah, yeah.

Joel Balsam (23:05)

Yeah, like Tromsø.

Mikkel (23:07)

Exactly. So do you have any other thoughts before we wrap up here about not just sustainability, but being on the cruise? I mean, it sounds like one might feel very good about themselves as a traveler choosing to travel in Norway, that really puts sustainability at the forefront of its 

travel industry and not just that but lifestyle. I mean, talk about a country that's not greenwashing the situation just for PR or to get people there. It sounds like Norway is it in a really great way.

Joel Balsam (23:41)

Yeah, and something I definitely wanted to add is that we can't expect the batteries to work if we're going to go across the Atlantic Ocean, for example. already really heavy. They're already really heavy. And they can only last so much when they're really pushing this big thing. They said that, you know, they could last like three to five years, all those batteries in that giant room that I was And they wouldn't even try that in the Atlantic Ocean. So really, Norway is the spot because if you're trying to go somewhere really far off land where they can't

Mikkel (23:50)

Okay, that's fair.

Dan (23:50)

Hmm. Yeah.

Joel Balsam (24:11)

Plug in and do their hybrid plug-in then it makes it more difficult so that is probably the place to go. And maybe yeah you talk about those river cruises or other places like they said they're hoping in the next few years that stops

on the coast of Norway— because it's a ferry and also a cargo —they're all hopefully going to have biogas fuel up stations too. These are their hopes if they can end up creating more of this stuff. It is a place to go to feel inspired also about, yeah, that technology will hopefully save us. Maybe go to nowhere to get some hope.

Dan (24:42)

Yeah.

Mikkel (24:42)

They save us all. Do they have a research and development team for this and engineers and such that are specifically focused on this internally?

Joel Balsam (24:54)

Yeah, they really were very professional and they had a talk and three guys, all named Gunner.

Dan (25:01)

Yes.

Mikkel (25:02)

Amazing.

Joel Balsam (25:04)

Yeah, and then there was different ones with energy and, you know, as well. Havila is actually a large company that doesn't just do cruises. It also, for example, does oil extraction, which I learned in that talk as well. Interesting. Interesting. So, but they're they're saying, you know, we know that this that can't be the future. We have to try and also be figuring out these other things. But yeah, interesting. ⁓ But yeah, they're And that is also money that they can use for research.

Dan (25:17)

That’s interesting. 

Mikkel (25:18)

Okay. That's fantastic.

Joel Balsam (25:33)

Right? If you're making it from the oil, it's the whole Norwegian model having this valuable resource that will eventually run out. So they're trying to save themselves for the future, which is nice for all of us.

Mikkel (25:34)

Right. Yeah. Right.

And great grandkids, you know, could potentially still work at their company because they're making sure that they're able to transition to other forms of energy. I think that's great.

Joel Balsam (25:56)

Yeah, I hope. I hope so. I mean, yeah, I don't work for them. I don't know. it, it, Scott. Not official. Not applying for a job. It sounded pretty cool. I was impressed that they're trying, but yes, I mean, you know, they're still extracting oil. I mean, we can't totally just stop that. So, yeah, hopefully.

Mikkel (26:00)

Unofficial. Not applying for a job, don't work for them.

Dan (26:13)

Yeah, we'll get there. We'll get.

Mikkel (26:15)

Yeah. That is an interesting point though, because people think of MSC Cruises if they're travelers and have been on that cruise line, but MSC, I mean, they're a shipping company, you know?

Dan (26:24)

Right, yeah. You see the shipping containers more than you see the actual cruise ships.

Mikkel (26:30)

Right. And if you haven't, now that we've said it, if you're anywhere that the freight trains go or by the coast of a port, now you'll see it. You'll see the MSC logo that is on the ship, also on the shipping containers.

Dan (26:35)

You'll see it.

Joel Balsam (26:40)

There you go.

Mikkel (26:41)

Yeah, there you go.

Dan (26:43)

Well, great stuff. So, Joel, what a great conversation. So many interesting new things about sustainability and just what Norway and Havila Voyages are doing. Thanks for coming on.

Joel Balsam (26:57)

Thanks for having me. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. It was a cool experience and I'm super happy to share. And yeah, maybe in a few years things will be like, "Wow, I can't believe that we didn't, they weren't all sustainable." We hope so. Hopefully, somebody will figure it out.

Mikkel (27:09)

Yeah. Yeah, it'll be like from an, We're like at the cassette from an eight track. Now we're at cassette and maybe next year we'll be at the CD in the timeline of the technology of this stuff. So, luckily, you enough to share some photos of the ship and the battery-operated room and such. And

We are going to share that on some time selling, let everybody know how to find you and your incredible articles and additional photos.

Joel Balsam (27:38)

Thanks, yeah. I post on Instagram for all my travels. I'm always going somewhere. Just my name, @JoelBalsam. Also, I have website and yeah, I, you know, if you look around the article, the byline, maybe it's mine. You know, I wrote, just wrote a story for the Smithsonian. I write Lonely Planet guidebooks a lot of the time, which you know, you can still, it's a cassette level of technology, the book, but I'm telling you, I'm telling you, it's worth it. Yeah, it's still valid.

Mikkel (27:53)

True. Still valid. Yeah, well, everybody

Mikkel (28:05)

wants analog again, right? Analog, right?

Joel Balsam (28:08)

I think you realize it's very handy dandy to have the book and just turn the page when you want to know the next rather than Google it again, where's that thing? It's not necessarily faster.

Mikkel (28:20)

Right, charge the device. No such thing with a book. So Lonely Planet, yep, yep. And we'll have all of that info in the show notes and how to spell it, but quickly, it's J-O-E-L-B-A-L-S-A-M. I feel like I could make a song about your name. I love it. Where's your next trip to end this wonderful 30 minutes of speaking with you?

Joel Balsam (28:22)

Don't have to do that. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. Let's go. I love it.

I'm going to Guyana, South America. Never been there before. It's just in the northeast corner of South America. There's a few countries there, Guyana, French Guyana, and Suriname. So I'm going there for the first time, getting into some jungle action, so looking forward to that.

Dan (28:48)

Interesting.

Mikkel (28:51)

Amazing. All right, well, safe travels and keep cruising whenever you have the time. Bye.

Joel Balsam (29:11)

Thanks. It was great chatting with you. Thank you.