From Shame to Freedom: Nate Larkin’s Redemption Story

What happens when a preacher’s kid with a secret becomes a voice for thousands of men seeking freedom from addiction and shame?

In this episode of Who Gave Jeff Allen a Podcast?, Jeff and Carollynn sit down with Nate Larkin — speaker, author, and founder of the Samson Society. Nate shares the raw, redemptive, and even humorous story of how his double life as a pastor and sex addict came crashing down… and how that wreckage became the foundation of a worldwide brotherhood.

You’ll hear about:

✅The turning point that led Nate to confess everything to his wife

✅How he went from isolation to deep male friendship

✅Why churches often struggle to talk about the things that matter most

✅And how the Samson Society is helping thousands of men find hope and healing

It’s a vulnerable and powerful conversation about faith, addiction, marriage, and the messy, beautiful path to redemption.

🛑 Warning: This episode contains frank discussions about sex addiction and pornography. It’s not graphic, but it is honest. Listener discretion advised.

🎧 Subscribe, rate, and share if this hits home—or if you know someone who needs to hear it.

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:13:05
Speaker 3
We're so excited to have you on this episode. Just so you know, there is some grown up, some juice. There's some juice that you don't want children to probably hear if you're driving them to school. Also, you're late and stop sipping coffee and put on real pants.

00:00:13:05 - 00:00:14:24
Speaker 3
You're a mom. Get it together.

00:00:14:27 - 00:00:18:07
Speaker 2
Get it together. Okay?

00:00:18:10 - 00:00:43:19
Speaker 1
I also would like to say to the to the men out there, gosh, I hope you're wearing pants. But this is an adult, an adult topic. Today we are going to discuss, sex and, sex addiction. And we use the word yeah, addict sex addiction. So this, all about today is about recovering from, a scourge that is just burning its way through our society.

00:00:43:21 - 00:00:51:14
Speaker 1
And we thought it was an important topic, so. But we wanted to give you this warning. As Carolyn said, if you've got young ears in the room, you might want to,

00:00:51:17 - 00:01:05:02
Speaker 3
We use so many grown up words. Baptist or dancing. Watch out, it is wild. And also, I shouldn't have said what I said about the moms. You guys, you're killing it. You're doing a great job. I believe in you.

00:01:05:04 - 00:01:07:29
Speaker 1
I think that covers it all.

00:01:07:29 - 00:01:09:22
Speaker 1
Hey, everybody, this is Jeff Allen

00:01:09:22 - 00:01:10:27
Speaker 2
Well, today.

00:01:11:00 - 00:01:33:27
Speaker 1
We have a wonderful guest, a dear friend of mine, from, many, many years. Mr., Nate Larkin and, the founder, of the organization Samson Society and, the author of the book Samson and the Pirate Monks. So there's no. Yeah. That's your personal story. We'll get into that. Okay. As well. And,

00:01:33:29 - 00:01:38:06
Speaker 1
Well, let's get on it, man. So, tell me your whole life story.

00:01:38:09 - 00:01:40:12
Speaker 2
You got a minute and a half, if you could condense it down...

00:01:40:14 - 00:01:41:08
Speaker 1
That's it.

00:01:41:11 - 00:01:42:02
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:01:42:05 - 00:01:45:02
Speaker 3
And I don't know what Sam..son?

00:01:45:05 - 00:01:49:10
Speaker 1
Well, Samson of the Pirate monks. Again, you can explain all of that, you know.

00:01:49:12 - 00:01:51:25
Speaker 2
Yeah, we'll get there. We'll get there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:01:51:26 - 00:01:54:15
Speaker 1
But, you were, a preacher's.

00:01:54:15 - 00:02:16:23
Speaker 4
Kid. I was a preacher's kid. Yeah, in a home that didn't have a television. Didn't have, you know, we kept ourselves very much apart from the world. Right? So, but we did have family devotions every day, and I distinctly remember the story of Samson and my dad reading from the, you know, the...

00:02:16:25 - 00:02:19:23
Speaker 1
How thick was the Bible?

00:02:19:25 - 00:02:46:18
Speaker 4
Well, this was the Edgar Meyers Family Bible story book with illustrations, so I could see it depicted right there, drawn this, this, superhero. But my father, we also were not allowed to have comic book. So there was no Superman. There was no Batman. None of that was allowed in our house, right? So this was my superhero Samson, this guy with, you know, this fabulous physique, you know, and gray hair.

00:02:46:23 - 00:03:07:26
Speaker 4
Yeah. This guy who was irresistible to women and, you know, unbeatable in battle. And I was always small for my age. Not very athletic, nearsighted. I was the kind of kid who, you know, got pushed around on the playground by bullies. Yeah, a girl bullies.

00:03:07:28 - 00:03:10:06
Speaker 2
So,

00:03:10:08 - 00:03:11:10
Speaker 1
I just got this image of you

00:03:11:10 - 00:03:15:10
Speaker 2
in a headlock, you know? I want your lunch money, Nate, you know?

00:03:15:12 - 00:03:23:14
Speaker 4
Yeah. So sometimes when, you know, when dad closed the book and we bowed our heads in prayer, I would imagine that I was Samson.

00:03:23:16 - 00:03:25:17
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:03:25:19 - 00:03:48:22
Speaker 4
So, obviously we never talked about sex in our home, right? And nobody warned me that porn even existed. So when I first encountered it, it took me completely by surprise. But the fact that we'd never talked about it sent a very powerful message. This is not something we can talk about. I was almost ten years old.

00:03:48:23 - 00:04:19:23
Speaker 4
It was shortly after my mother died. I was in a very vulnerable, emotional state, anyway. And on the brink of puberty. So naturally, I was fascinated. And and also, I mean, porn depicts at least some porn. Something that we're a wired by God to want. I think every boy. And these days, most girls eventually encounter porn and instinctively likes porn.

00:04:19:23 - 00:04:30:23
Speaker 4
Because, again, it depicts something we're wired by God to want, but in a perverted way. All I knew was there was something about this was wrong and I couldn't tell anybody.

00:04:31:23 - 00:04:33:05
Speaker 3
Am I allowed to ask how old you are?

00:04:33:09 - 00:04:33:27
Speaker 4
Ten.

00:04:33:29 - 00:04:35:18
Speaker 3
Ten. Yeah. No I mean now.

00:04:35:19 - 00:04:38:20
Speaker 4
Now I am 67 years old.

00:04:38:23 - 00:04:42:24
Speaker 3
So you had to work to get it. You had to like go rummage sale.

00:04:43:01 - 00:04:43:28
Speaker 2
This was a

00:04:44:00 - 00:05:03:02
Speaker 4
long, long time ago. So this was I got hooked on porn long before the internet. Yeah, I got I got hooked on still images, right? Yeah. So the first thing I saw was a Playboy magazine. And through adolescence, you know, I learned to use any kind of material that I could find, you know, including.

00:05:03:02 - 00:05:11:21
Speaker 1
Were you, like me when you encountered a real in life flesh woman with no clothes on? And did you look for the staple?

00:05:11:23 - 00:05:11:28
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:05:12:02 - 00:05:12:25
Speaker 1
Something missing.

00:05:13:02 - 00:05:14:27
Speaker 2
I don't.

00:05:14:29 - 00:05:15:29
Speaker 3
Catalog.

00:05:16:01 - 00:05:16:15
Speaker 2
Panties.

00:05:16:16 - 00:05:18:02
Speaker 3
Are on.

00:05:18:05 - 00:05:19:13
Speaker 2
Me.

00:05:19:15 - 00:05:40:07
Speaker 4
So I, I battled it all through adolescence. Secretly, of course, because I was on track to follow in my father's footsteps. So I was marked for the ministry from an early age. But because I was good in front of a crowd and I could sing and I could talk, and I had a good memory. And I liked being up front.

00:05:40:09 - 00:06:08:16
Speaker 4
And, of course, if word had ever leaked out of what my obsessions were, I would have, you know, my my career ambitions would have been derailed. So I kept it very, very much on the down low. So secretly battled it. Lots of secret trips to the altar without ever leaving my seat. When I got to college, I decided to stop feeling guilty.

00:06:08:19 - 00:06:25:16
Speaker 4
Decided, you know, I needed to join the modern world. I desperately needed sex education. And I thought, what better place to go to than porn actually rationalize my porn use during my college years as preparation for marriage.

00:06:25:18 - 00:06:26:02
Speaker 2
Right.

00:06:26:10 - 00:06:57:27
Speaker 4
Unaware that I was already poisoning my marriage. But I was certain that as soon as I met the perfect girl and got married, naturally, my interest in porn would disappear. Yeah, and I did meet the perfect girl. And I felt deeply in love. And we got married the day I graduated from college. What I didn't understand was that by this time, porn and if I can use the word masturbation, had become my default distress management strategy.

00:06:58:03 - 00:07:09:18
Speaker 4
Right. So whenever I was in distress of any kind, that's what I went to for emotional regulation, for comfort. Well, as it turns out, marriage is stressful.

00:07:09:20 - 00:07:13:08
Speaker 2
Yeah. That's right.

00:07:13:10 - 00:07:19:23
Speaker 4
So not too long after the honeymoon, the problem resurfaced, which was very discouraging.

00:07:19:25 - 00:07:28:11
Speaker 3
Especially with all that preparation. You had to deliver a pizza every night and the whole thing. She never had cash on her.

00:07:28:14 - 00:07:36:01
Speaker 2
So. So,

00:07:36:03 - 00:08:02:07
Speaker 4
You crack me up. Well, what I told myself then was, I said, Nate, you know what? Porn is probably your best defense against infidelity, right? I don't ever want to cheat on Ali. I meant it when I said I'm going to be faithful to, you know, long as we both shall Live, as long as we both shall live. And so, come to think of it, I'm really being considerate, not burdening her with all my sexual needs.

00:08:02:11 - 00:08:06:12
Speaker 4
Right? She just doesn't need to know how considerate I'm being right.

00:08:06:15 - 00:08:07:15
Speaker 2
Right. Absolutely.

00:08:07:15 - 00:08:15:06
Speaker 3
Funny how Satan likes swings that in our brain. I do that kind of stuff all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, yeah, I'm being considered a virtual good person.

00:08:15:08 - 00:08:17:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely.

00:08:17:08 - 00:08:26:17
Speaker 4
What I didn't understand was that porn was now programing me, grooming me, setting me up for the next stage.

00:08:26:20 - 00:08:35:02
Speaker 3
So at this point, you for the the younger people. Yeah. In their 30s. So you've gone from Playboy to porn and then porn. You had to like Playboy.

00:08:35:09 - 00:08:44:19
Speaker 4
The porn at this. At this point, porn is still Playboy and Penthouse. Okay, it's all print, right? We're still in the 70s.

00:08:44:21 - 00:08:48:03
Speaker 3
So you're not at VHS rental place? Not yet. Yeah, okay.

00:08:48:10 - 00:09:24:11
Speaker 4
Not yet. I didn't get my first look at modern moving porn until, ironically, I was in seminary. Oh, okay. Okay, so I'm going to Princeton Seminary. I come out of class one day, and I see a poster on the wall advertising a field trip that's co-sponsored by the seminary and a group called Women Against Pornography. What they propose to do is to take seminaries as seminarians, and spouses of spouses want to come into the heart of New York City, into Times Square on a tour of all the sex businesses.

00:09:24:11 - 00:09:25:05
Speaker 1
In the 70s.

00:09:25:12 - 00:09:27:11
Speaker 4
Yeah. Yeah, it was a toilet.

00:09:27:13 - 00:09:27:18
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:09:27:26 - 00:09:47:16
Speaker 4
Just so that we can see firsthand how women are exploited by the sex business. And I think this is exactly what I need. I'm a good person, right? I don't want anybody to get hurt if I can see behind the curtain. I can see how bad it is. I'll stop. I brought Ali.

00:09:47:16 - 00:09:50:08
Speaker 2
Along. I got my.

00:09:50:08 - 00:09:56:26
Speaker 4
First look at hardcore porn in a peep show booth with my wife beside me. She put the quarter in.

00:09:56:29 - 00:09:58:12
Speaker 1
Wow.

00:09:58:14 - 00:10:06:28
Speaker 4
Now she was disgusted by what she saw. And in that moment, I was too. In that moment, I could see it was all a sham.

00:10:07:00 - 00:10:08:03
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:10:08:05 - 00:10:31:27
Speaker 4
But at the same time, man, it's like somewhere deep inside me, a door swung open. And it wasn't too many days after that that I started slipping away from school and home, driving down into Trenton, new Jersey. Oh, yeah. To search for a source for my new drug. Because, baby, I had found my drug. I've never been a drinker.

00:10:31:28 - 00:10:53:02
Speaker 4
Never been a drug user. But I had found. But now we now know the porn actually stimulates the same pleasure centers in the brain that cocaine does. We know that over time, it actually changes the brain in the same way the cocaine. We can see it now on brain scans, right? Allie couldn't see that, but she could see me drifting away from her emotionally.

00:10:54:04 - 00:11:03:29
Speaker 4
She didn't know what was going wrong. She thought it was her right. That sounded like a good explanation to me. Yeah I went with that.

00:11:04:01 - 00:11:06:03
Speaker 1
Okay.

00:11:06:06 - 00:11:14:05
Speaker 4
And now I felt terribly guilty for what I was doing. And, you know, I would make a valiant efforts to stop, but, and.

00:11:14:05 - 00:11:40:24
Speaker 4
So fast forward a few years now, we're in South Florida. In one of those periods where I'd managed to quit what I thought was, sobriety was actually just, I was just white knuckle abstinence. But I had enough courage and enough folly at that point of pride to think I was now ready to start a church. So I planted a church in South Florida.

00:11:40:26 - 00:11:42:25
Speaker 3
Oh, I thought you were going to say in Trenton, new Jersey.

00:11:42:27 - 00:11:43:26
Speaker 2
No, no.

00:11:43:28 - 00:11:53:29
Speaker 4
No, in South Florida. Well, as it turns out, church can be stressful.

00:11:54:01 - 00:11:57:07
Speaker 1
Less. I I think.

00:11:57:09 - 00:11:57:28
Speaker 2
So.

00:11:58:05 - 00:12:14:15
Speaker 4
Before long, the problem reappeared. Now, I was very, very careful. I was never caught. But I was daily at. Back then, it was adult bookstores. I didn't want to bring it home. So it was. It was peep shows in bookstores.

00:12:14:21 - 00:12:17:15
Speaker 3
Compartmentalize it. Absolutely. Men are so good at that.

00:12:17:17 - 00:12:17:26
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:12:17:27 - 00:12:19:14
Speaker 3
Yeah. It's a gift.

00:12:19:21 - 00:12:20:12
Speaker 1
It's a gift.

00:12:20:13 - 00:12:23:08
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

00:12:23:17 - 00:12:38:26
Speaker 4
What I didn't understand was now I'm essentially sitting in a simulator. Day after day after day. Right. And it takes a while. But about three and a half years, four years into, pastoring.

00:12:38:26 - 00:12:56:17
Speaker 4
So it's a Christmas Eve. I'm heading into downtown Fort Lauderdale to get things set up for a candlelight service for our little church. We. We didn't have our own building, but we were borrowing a beautiful little Lutheran sanctuary, and my wife and kids would. We had three kids by now. They would follow later.

00:12:56:17 - 00:13:03:08
Speaker 4
So just coming off of I-95, heading east on Broward Boulevard, it starts to rain.

00:13:03:11 - 00:13:14:25
Speaker 4
I see a lone female figure ahead of me on the sidewalk. I do what I think is the, chivalrous thing to do, and I pull over to offer her a ride out of the rain.

00:13:15:29 - 00:13:19:13
Speaker 4
I don't know what she's doing until she's in the car and propositioning me.

00:13:20:15 - 00:13:28:29
Speaker 4
And that's when the programing kicked in. I went full automatic.

00:13:29:01 - 00:13:37:10
Speaker 4
So that was absolutely off. Coming back to consciousness. Really? Sexual acting out is dissociative behavior. You have to go away from yourself.

00:13:37:15 - 00:13:51:05
Speaker 1
It is. It's it's it's an out of body thing. Oh, it. People that don't understand that look at you because you're you're not there, right? You're literally not there through the process. And the second you ejaculate.

00:13:51:06 - 00:13:52:05
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:13:52:08 - 00:13:54:19
Speaker 1
You're back. Yeah. And then now the guilt hits.

00:13:54:20 - 00:14:04:13
Speaker 4
Oh, the guilt. Shame. The regret. Oh, yeah. The self-hatred. All that stuff. And I still got to lead a candlelight service. That was an awful night.

00:14:04:20 - 00:14:06:19
Speaker 1
Oh, I can imagine.

00:14:06:21 - 00:14:28:26
Speaker 4
And I just. I promised God and that. God. You know, I will not do it again. You know, I said, okay, this is it. I finally hit bottom. Yeah. This never happened again. And it didn't right away. But then it did. And I did it again and again and again. I'm always very careful, but, developed a new ritual.

00:14:28:28 - 00:15:01:08
Speaker 4
I was never caught. But the desperation, the self-hatred, the despair. Just the disgust with myself. I despised my own hypocrisy. And I was terrified of getting caught. It was by now we're in the 80s. We're in the mid 80s when famous preachers are all over the news with sex scandals of one kind or another. I wasn't famous, but I was building a good reputation in South Florida, and I knew the story was juicy enough that when I got caught, I'd make the paper, and that just seemed

00:15:01:08 - 00:15:01:24
Speaker 4
just.

00:15:01:27 - 00:15:04:10
Speaker 1
Well, the media loves any Christian who falls.

00:15:04:11 - 00:15:04:28
Speaker 2
Oh yeah.

00:15:04:29 - 00:15:07:18
Speaker 1
That that has a that has a platform.

00:15:07:21 - 00:15:31:22
Speaker 4
So on my 30th birthday, I woke up knowing, this couldn't go on. I had to either quit the behavior or quit the ministry. And at that point, there was only one I could quit. So, I quit. The only thing I'd ever planned to do. The only thing I'd ever trained to do at 30, Alli actually was relieved, as scary as it was.

00:15:31:24 - 00:15:32:28
Speaker 3
Did she know at this point?

00:15:32:29 - 00:15:40:28
Speaker 4
No, but she thought maybe it was just the stress of the ministry that had come between us. She really wanted her best friend back.

00:15:41:01 - 00:15:42:02
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:15:42:05 - 00:16:10:05
Speaker 4
And so she was, you know, she was okay with it. And it was it was a little rough in transition, but turns out I have a few transferable skills. And, within a year and a half, I was a partner in an engineering firm. I've never had an engineering course in my life, but I can understand and interpret for engineers to non-technical audiences.

00:16:10:08 - 00:16:17:28
Speaker 4
So that's what I wound up doing. I still do it to this day. So now, I'm making money.

00:16:18:00 - 00:16:18:18
Speaker 1
Right?

00:16:18:20 - 00:16:26:05
Speaker 4
And I've got no accountability. And what followed was a very dark dozen years.

00:16:26:08 - 00:16:31:02
Speaker 3
But they went from fours to, like, eights. Hundred percent.

00:16:31:03 - 00:16:36:12
Speaker 4
Well, you know. Well, exactly. I didn't have to pick up on girls and women on the street anymore.

00:16:36:13 - 00:16:38:01
Speaker 3
They had all their teeth.

00:16:38:04 - 00:16:40:23
Speaker 2
They had waffle House.

00:16:40:25 - 00:16:44:07
Speaker 3
I didn't touch cigaret breath. It was amazing. I mean.

00:16:44:10 - 00:16:50:14
Speaker 2
I shouldn't have to tell you a joke. I'm sorry. Yeah. Oh.

00:16:50:17 - 00:16:59:23
Speaker 4
And of course, the self-hatred. And here's the thing. I never left church the Sunday after I left the ministry. We joined a church. I love church.

00:16:59:25 - 00:17:02:13
Speaker 1
And I.

00:17:02:16 - 00:17:02:24
Speaker 2
The.

00:17:02:24 - 00:17:18:20
Speaker 4
Me I wanted to be this saint named that I this persona that I had developed and cultivated and. And that people loved. That I loved the guy I wanted to be all the time. I could be that guy in church. I just couldn't get that guy to breathe on his own for very long.

00:17:18:26 - 00:17:33:27
Speaker 1
How big a stake is it in the heart when people come over to you and tell you that's who you are? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, you're the way you treat your wife, the compassionate. Oh, I'm all of this stuff. And then you're back of your head. You're thinking I just acted out.

00:17:33:29 - 00:17:36:26
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. And Ali was wonderful.

00:17:36:26 - 00:17:43:21
Speaker 1
But that's how God uses the that stake. I mean, it's just. Yeah. You know. Yeah, it's.

00:17:43:23 - 00:17:54:00
Speaker 4
Yeah. You know, a woman would say, you know, say to my wife, you know, you're so lucky to be married, that guy. And she would. God bless her, she would play along, you know? Yeah. Yeah, I sure am. He's just a great listener of.

00:17:54:03 - 00:18:04:12
Speaker 1
Her and Tami. I must be a joy to live with you. Comedian laughs. Oh, it's a laugh a minute. Yeah, especially when he's in the bathroom on the floor in the fetal position.

00:18:04:15 - 00:18:05:05
Speaker 2
You know.

00:18:05:08 - 00:18:10:03
Speaker 1
Those are those joyous times that I remember.

00:18:10:05 - 00:18:29:06
Speaker 3
You said Saint Nate, which reminded me of Saint Mary of Egypt. Who had sex addiction issues from the time she was like, I want to say 14 years. This was a bajillion years ago, but she was like 14. And she would sleep with men. She wouldn't even charge them. She just enjoyed taking them away from their spouses.

00:18:29:08 - 00:18:50:16
Speaker 3
Oh yeah. And then she had this come to Jesus moment, outside of a church. And anyways, she wandered in her life story. She wandered the desert for 17 years and couldn't. Wandered the desert alone for 17 years and couldn't get the impulse. Like you're talking about that just to turn off? Yeah. She was like, I don't understand.

00:18:50:18 - 00:19:16:10
Speaker 3
I've left everything. Yeah, I'm out here completely away from everyone. Why is this still happening to me? So what? I just have a question. What is your, How do you explain what happens on the inside when it's like. For me, it's those two people that battle. It's like, this is the person that's trying to get dragged into the pit, and there's this good, joyous, kind, loving person in here, and they're constantly in conflict.

00:19:16:11 - 00:19:17:19
Speaker 3
Yeah. So how did you.

00:19:17:25 - 00:19:48:22
Speaker 4
Well, I've come to believe that addiction is a maladaptive response to trauma. Have we find a way when when when life is overwhelming and I have plenty of trauma in my life. Things that should not have happened did happen, and things that should have happened didn't. So, so, so, I came through a child with parents who loved me, having survived both abuse and neglect.

00:19:48:24 - 00:20:17:17
Speaker 4
Those are over. Can be overwhelming, overwhelming emotions. And, if we can find a workaround, something that will give us, bring us some sense of peace. Comfort has transitory as it might be. Man, we get hooked early on and the brain never forgets. I can find relief this way. Yeah. Right. That becomes a very strong neural pathway, and it becomes habituated.

00:20:17:19 - 00:20:44:14
Speaker 4
And that's why recovery takes some time. We learn addiction. We don't have to study to do it. I have to go to school to do it. We learn it implicitly. Right. And so we can't unlearn it explicitly. We have to unlearn it implicitly. Right. Right. And that takes some time. But, I was so, solely focused on the behavior.

00:20:44:17 - 00:21:16:07
Speaker 4
Living in tons of shame made successfully maintaining a good reputation. I was active in church. I sang in the worship team. I taught Sunday school. I helped lead the youth group. I filled in for the preacher Sometimes. Love church! And then just knowing what a fraud I was. Well, in 1998, we moved from, South Florida to Middle Tennessee for the sole purpose of being close to our first grandchild, who was due to be born that fall.

00:21:16:10 - 00:21:43:11
Speaker 4
I took what the alcoholics called the geographic cure. Right. Right. And it worked for a few weeks. But then we started running out of money, and I started to get scared. And then I reached for the only fear medication I'd ever use. So, so late one night after Ali had fallen asleep, I slipped out of bed, went back to the office, fired up the computer, started downloading porn because now I had broadband.

00:21:43:13 - 00:22:06:24
Speaker 4
Right now I have. I don't have to go. I don't have take any risk to find it. I've got an endless supply, an endless variety of virtual sex partners in full motion video there in the privacy and anonymity of my own home. I don't know how long I was there that night. Time disappeared, as it always does.

00:22:06:24 - 00:22:15:02
Speaker 4
We're. When we're in a dissociated state. All I know is the one point I looked up and my wife was standing there.

00:22:15:05 - 00:22:16:09
Speaker 1
Oh, really?

00:22:16:12 - 00:22:43:21
Speaker 4
I hadn't even heard her come in. And she had this look of kind of shocked incomprehension on her face. She didn't say anything. She turned and laughed. I quickly shut everything down, followed her back into the bedroom, apologizing and explaining. Promising. Begging. Yeah. You know, it was a long night. We got through it, but a couple of weeks later she found a condom on the floor in the bathroom.

00:22:43:21 - 00:23:12:20
Speaker 4
That I couldn't quite explain. Because my behavior quickly escalated from porn. And that's when, she sat me down on the edge of our bed, and she said the words that saved my life. She said, I'm done. She said, I still love you, but I don't like you. I don't trust you. I don't respect you. And I don't think you can ever change.

00:23:12:23 - 00:23:36:26
Speaker 4
Those are the words that gave me the gift of desperation, right? That's what made me finally willing to go for help. I didn't go to the church. Scared to go to the church. Church hadn’t proven in my experience to be very kind to, Those, engaged in sexual sin. I didn't go to a therapist.

00:23:36:26 - 00:23:59:10
Speaker 4
I was out of money. I found help for the first time in a 12 step for sex act. And the ironic thing is, it wasn't a Christian group. We never talked about Jesus. We didn't read from the Bible. There was no singing.

00:23:59:12 - 00:24:02:09
Speaker 4
And somehow, in those rooms, I met God in a whole new way.

00:24:02:11 - 00:24:04:00
Speaker 1
Right.

00:24:04:03 - 00:24:19:12
Speaker 4
He. He got a whole lot bigger. He got a whole lot closer. He got a whole lot kinder. And, but I remember coming out of that first meeting mad, furious that I'd spent a

00:24:19:12 - 00:24:20:14
Speaker 2
Lifetime

00:24:20:14 - 00:24:32:11
Speaker 4
In church, and I had never been in a room that safe. I'd never heard honesty like that in my life. I never felt that level of empathy, kindness, acceptance.

00:24:32:14 - 00:24:33:21
Speaker 1
Right.

00:24:33:24 - 00:24:43:14
Speaker 4
I've never really heard Jesus like I heard him in that room from a bunch of Samaritans who didn't even seem to know his proper name. They kept referring to him as a higher power.

00:24:43:17 - 00:24:48:08
Speaker 2
Right. Yeah. Yeah. But,

00:24:48:10 - 00:24:58:13
Speaker 4
But that was wonderful. I did not, however, have any plan to join the group. I went to that first meeting for research purposes. Right. Right, right.

00:24:58:18 - 00:25:06:22
Speaker 1
And one of the things you shared with me, I mean, we've known each other for years. Yeah. And, Was that you were still acting out on your way to the.

00:25:06:24 - 00:25:07:09
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah.

00:25:07:09 - 00:25:08:09
Speaker 1
Yeah, to the meetings.

00:25:08:09 - 00:25:10:20
Speaker 4
Yeah. So I started attending the meetings.

00:25:10:22 - 00:25:12:15
Speaker 1
Right. Because you were researching, right?

00:25:12:15 - 00:25:17:20
Speaker 4
Research? Exactly. I'm on an independent study.

00:25:17:22 - 00:25:21:18
Speaker 2
No grant, no grants. No, no, no.

00:25:21:20 - 00:25:29:28
Speaker 4
And I would sometimes act out, on my way to meetings. And I because I learned that if I go to the meeting first, then I probably wouldn't act out.

00:25:29:29 - 00:25:31:04
Speaker 1
Well, that's the point. And I.

00:25:31:04 - 00:25:31:28
Speaker 2
Think.

00:25:32:00 - 00:25:35:02
Speaker 1
Some people listening to this that have. If they've stuck this far.

00:25:35:02 - 00:25:35:12
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.

00:25:35:18 - 00:25:46:12
Speaker 1
They're probably interested in the recovery side of all of us. So they have to understand that it's not as okay, I go into the meeting and all of a sudden I don't boom through this anymore. Yeah. No. You know.

00:25:46:15 - 00:25:47:02
Speaker 2
No.

00:25:47:04 - 00:26:01:06
Speaker 1
Yeah. I think I quit drinking 87 times before it finally stuck and. Yeah. So, yeah, I would just remember that part of your story was, you know, that you'd go into the meeting after, after hitting the powder or whatever.

00:26:01:11 - 00:26:07:06
Speaker 2
Yeah. Those. Right. Oh, it’s I got a problem. It's problem. But I was.

00:26:07:07 - 00:26:08:10
Speaker 3
Confession after the murder.

00:26:08:15 - 00:26:08:26
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:26:09:03 - 00:26:10:28
Speaker 2
So I really.

00:26:11:00 - 00:26:14:15
Speaker 4
Thought at that point that I had an information problem.

00:26:14:18 - 00:26:15:09
Speaker 1
Right.

00:26:15:12 - 00:26:32:25
Speaker 4
Okay. I'd spent years searching for the final piece of the puzzle. You know, this key insight. The magic ritual, the silver bullet, whatever it would take for me, finally, to be able to overcome this compulsion on my own. I thought maybe I'd found the people who had the secret information.

00:26:32:27 - 00:26:53:25
Speaker 4
But as it turns out, there really isn't any secret information. There's a lot to learn, but it's not secret. And I didn't have an information problem. What I had was a relationship problem thing. I was well known, but nobody knew me. And at that point, I didn't even know myself. But my plan was to set the land speed record for recovery.

00:26:53:27 - 00:26:59:28
Speaker 4
I'm a fairly smart guy. I'm going to listen closely. I'm going to master the material quickly. I'm going to pass the exam.

00:26:59:28 - 00:27:06:00
Speaker 1
I'm done with this crap. Oh, yeah. That's I had that same issue. Yeah, I got about three weeks in AA I think I'll be done.

00:27:06:03 - 00:27:10:12
Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Which is why I relapsed.

00:27:10:12 - 00:27:13:05
Speaker 4
And when I slept like a champ for almost three years.

00:27:14:13 - 00:27:37:04
Speaker 4
Enough face plants back into that old behavior, though. And I finally surrendered. Finally decided to join the human race. Become just another bozo on the bus, right? Become as willing to take advice as I was to give advice, as willing to ask for help as I was to get help. And that's when I started to find my feet.

00:27:37:06 - 00:27:41:20
Speaker 1
In Recovery. Yeah. So is what year?

00:27:41:24 - 00:28:08:17
Speaker 4
So I entered, recovery in 1998. So really start to get sober around 2001. By 2004. I'd lost my shame. I could now talk about it. My wife knew everything. My grown kids knew everything. I talked freely in meetings. I even told my pastor and gave him my phone number and permission to give it to anybody.

00:28:08:17 - 00:28:17:10
Speaker 4
He thought I might be able to help. And my phone immediately started to ring because it turns out I'm far from unique.

00:28:17:12 - 00:28:20:06
Speaker 2
And I thought I was the only guy in the church.

00:28:20:06 - 00:28:53:15
Speaker 4
Was failing like this. No no no no no. So before I know it, I'm walking with a dozen guys and doing with them and my sponsors done with me and and, and all of us are Christians, and we start to really see the fruits of recovery that what it's like to walk in this level of vulnerability and honesty and mutual dependance and, and that's when, at my wife's suggestion, we decided to start the Samson Society.

00:28:53:18 - 00:29:03:18
Speaker 4
As a, we, we called it, a mutual aid society for Christian men, not a group for porn and sex addicts. Exclusively.

00:29:03:21 - 00:29:05:03
Speaker 1
Right.

00:29:05:06 - 00:29:29:19
Speaker 4
So it's open to anybody who wants to deal with anything. So we got guys in Samson who come for all kinds of reasons. It might be a battle with drugs or alcohol. It might be gambling. It might be gaming or food or work or rage or even anxiety and depression. The one thing we all have in common is that we have all been, to some degree, isolated.

00:29:29:21 - 00:29:53:14
Speaker 4
Well, Samson grew very quickly. We got very excited, so excited that in 2007 we put out a book, Samson and the Pirate Monks, which is still more or less the Handbook of the Samson Society until somebody writes a better one. Published by Thomas Nelson. We were hoping to inspire other guys to do something like what we were doing.

00:29:53:17 - 00:30:23:03
Speaker 4
But since then, more than 600 local groups of the Samson Society have started. The now, those groups did have a high mortality rate, especially during Covid. But fortunately, in 2000... 2018, we took the step of starting online meetings. Yeah. Which I initially I resisted for years because if there's one thing I know for sure, it's this recovery that requires relationship, right?

00:30:23:05 - 00:30:34:28
Speaker 4
The opposite of addiction is connection. And I've made real connection in rooms where I could see and touch people. And at that point, I didn't think that real relationships could possibly form outside of a shared vision boundaries.

00:30:35:00 - 00:30:39:21
Speaker 1
Initially it was just men? Yeah, yeah. And then you've since gone coed.

00:30:39:24 - 00:30:53:27
Speaker 4
So we don't have coed meetings yet for Samson, although I have been to an all female Samson meeting. I know of one in Florida. But our wives have gotten together and started the Sarah Society.

00:30:54:00 - 00:30:57:14
Speaker 2
Oh. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:30:57:16 - 00:31:13:00
Speaker 4
So, so the women who love idiots like us, but need to deal with the betrayal trauma that comes, so they they started the Sarah Society just a few years ago. It's actually growing faster than Samson, though.

00:31:13:03 - 00:31:20:02
Speaker 1
And what's the line that we have? Healthy relationships with men.

00:31:20:04 - 00:31:22:07
Speaker 2
And so. Yeah. Yeah, we.

00:31:22:07 - 00:31:29:22
Speaker 4
Get that from rock. We have healthy relationships with men so that we don't have to to avoid unhealthy relationships with women.

00:31:29:25 - 00:31:30:04
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:31:30:04 - 00:31:34:23
Speaker 1
That's. Yeah. Healthy relationships with men to avoid unhealthy relationships. Okay.

00:31:34:24 - 00:31:35:10
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:31:35:12 - 00:31:58:26
Speaker 1
That's powerful. Yeah. And, we've done a lot of work. You and I, we meet on Mondays, on zoom, and, a lot of that, the Pure Desire book. Yeah, I use as well. Has dealing with the brain mapping. You have a podcast on your, Ssamson Society page where I just listen to one of them, the brain mapping.

00:31:58:28 - 00:31:59:12
Speaker 4
Oh, yeah.

00:31:59:12 - 00:32:03:25
Speaker 1
From the mechanic. This woman was an auto mechanic, and then she decides to get into neuroscience.

00:32:03:25 - 00:32:07:19
Speaker 2
It's. Yeah. Yeah. You meet all kinds? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:32:07:21 - 00:32:15:07
Speaker 1
The rooms. So share a little bit about that. The, the the brain mapping I because that was fascinating to me because as a cocaine addict.

00:32:15:15 - 00:32:15:24
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:32:16:01 - 00:32:23:10
Speaker 1
That, whose porn addiction escalated. Yeah. You bring up cocaine, and I thought I actually gave up cocaine.

00:32:23:10 - 00:32:23:29
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:32:24:00 - 00:32:26:24
Speaker 1
Yeah, because I said I didn't have a problem with cocaine giving it.

00:32:26:24 - 00:32:27:20
Speaker 2
Up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:32:27:20 - 00:32:30:06
Speaker 1
Because I the same mapping.

00:32:30:08 - 00:32:31:06
Speaker 4
Exactly.

00:32:31:06 - 00:32:32:00
Speaker 1
Through the porn.

00:32:32:00 - 00:32:32:23
Speaker 2
Yeah. And.

00:32:32:25 - 00:32:36:11
Speaker 1
Yeah. So I really did not give up cocaine. I just.

00:32:36:14 - 00:32:37:15
Speaker 2
Trained.

00:32:37:18 - 00:32:40:03
Speaker 3
You picked a more financially responsible choice

00:32:40:10 - 00:32:42:00
Speaker 2
Well actually yes. Yeah.

00:32:42:02 - 00:32:45:09
Speaker 1
And easier to to to to access. I didn't have to know.

00:32:45:09 - 00:32:47:20
Speaker 3
Dark alleys. Yeah.

00:32:47:22 - 00:32:48:08
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:32:48:10 - 00:32:50:27
Speaker 3
You heard fentanyl was on the rise. Like I'm getting out.

00:32:50:29 - 00:33:06:08
Speaker 1
But I'll tell. I'll tell the listener, who's watching this? If you really want to have some fun, go in and Google brain mapping from, from addicts. It looks like Swiss cheese. Oh, yeah. And then it takes about two years, you know, and Paul talks about it, which is I want to get into the silence aspect.

00:33:06:09 - 00:33:06:19
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.

00:33:06:25 - 00:33:21:16
Speaker 1
Of your. Yeah, The Samson society. But Paul talks about the renewing of the mind. And it's interesting, written thousands of years ago, our minds can be renewed. Yeah. But it takes at least two years. Yeah. Because what I've heard and I've got two years to kind of.

00:33:21:18 - 00:33:23:09
Speaker 4
It takes time. Yeah, yeah.

00:33:23:09 - 00:33:26:07
Speaker 1
And so silence is, Paul's.

00:33:26:09 - 00:33:49:06
Speaker 4
Yeah. So, so what we believe in Samson is that Christianity, properly understood, is actually a team sport, not an individual event. But so all of us are colossal failures as solo disciples for a simple reason. Jesus doesn't have any solo disciples. Never did. That's never been the plan he first said, follow me to two guys, not just one.

00:33:49:06 - 00:34:17:16
Speaker 4
Quickly added ten more to them. He came to reconstitute the family of God, to reconcile us to God and to each other. And as believers, we haven't joined an organization. We've been made part of an organism, right? None of us are self-sufficient. All of us depended on each other. So, when somebody joined Sampson and they started coming to meetings and they meet some of the greatest guys in the world, and before a guy knows it, he's got a team.

00:34:17:16 - 00:34:51:09
Speaker 4
He's got guys who know him. Guys, you can go to guys who give them input. Guys will shoot them straight. Guys will support them. Now there really always needs to be a lead guy on that team. We call that guy a Silas in some ways not unlike a sponsor and AA, but it's very much a peer relationship. So this is the guy that he is in regular contact with, ideally daily contact and just reaching out to make that contact to tell the truth to another person is a spiritual exercise.

00:34:51:12 - 00:34:52:02
Speaker 1
Absolutely.

00:34:52:02 - 00:34:52:28
Speaker 4
It's an active story.

00:34:52:28 - 00:34:54:00
Speaker 1
It breaks the grip.

00:34:54:00 - 00:34:54:16
Speaker 4
Oh yeah.

00:34:54:23 - 00:34:59:18
Speaker 1
Of the cycle. Right. The second you reach out and ask for help.

00:34:59:21 - 00:35:00:12
Speaker 2
Yep.

00:35:00:15 - 00:35:03:29
Speaker 1
That grip is gone. Yep. Yeah. It's a powerful tool.

00:35:04:02 - 00:35:10:23
Speaker 4
And it's and it's mutually helpful to both partners. So.

00:35:10:25 - 00:35:15:21
Speaker 1
Because one of the pitfalls and yeah, I'm sure you'll attest, I'm not going to put words in your mouth.

00:35:15:21 - 00:35:16:06
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.

00:35:16:09 - 00:35:20:09
Speaker 1
But the isolationism. Oh, yeah, it's the real disease.

00:35:20:13 - 00:35:20:24
Speaker 4
Yes.

00:35:20:24 - 00:35:36:15
Speaker 1
Absolute isolate. And then to convince yourself, because I remember doing that early in recovery where I can handle this, I can get through this day. I don't need to bother them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the only thing I did, right, in early sobriety was I bothered the snot out of my sponsor.

00:35:36:18 - 00:35:37:20
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.

00:35:37:22 - 00:35:45:15
Speaker 1
Yeah, I called him, like, eight times a day. Yeah. You know. Yeah, it's me again. It's me again. It's me again, you know? Yeah. I'm breathing. My eyes are open.

00:35:45:16 - 00:35:51:28
Speaker 2
I want well, I want a drink. Yeah, yeah, my eyes are open. Yeah, yeah.

00:35:52:01 - 00:35:56:21
Speaker 1
So the silence part of it is an important part. And it's hard to get addicts.

00:35:56:21 - 00:35:57:19
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:35:57:22 - 00:35:59:08
Speaker 1
To to be vulnerable.

00:35:59:08 - 00:36:00:18
Speaker 2
Oh, we don't want to do it.

00:36:00:21 - 00:36:04:07
Speaker 4
We don't want to do it and has a ton to do with shame.

00:36:04:10 - 00:36:06:24
Speaker 1
Right.

00:36:06:26 - 00:36:28:22
Speaker 4
So it's wonderful shame reduction activity to go to then listen to other people say things that aren't normally said to step out of the shadow and into the sun, and then you find the courage to do the same. And then, you know, although your instinct and program and experience tells you that people will pull away, they'll lean back, they'll recoil, and they see who you really are.

00:36:28:22 - 00:36:34:06
Speaker 4
That's the shame message. And you find that just the opposite happens. You know.

00:36:34:08 - 00:36:37:25
Speaker 1
There's a sort of bond in the misery, you know.

00:36:37:28 - 00:36:38:16
Speaker 4
There.

00:36:38:18 - 00:36:41:17
Speaker 1
But, you know, you realize you're not. They call it terminal uniqueness.

00:36:41:17 - 00:36:42:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:36:42:10 - 00:36:47:02
Speaker 1
I used to love that phrase. The early newcomers would come in and go, you don't understand me.

00:36:47:02 - 00:36:47:26
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:36:47:26 - 00:36:50:02
Speaker 1
You know. Yeah, this is my story. You don't know mine.

00:36:50:09 - 00:36:52:13
Speaker 2
And you know like.

00:36:52:14 - 00:37:00:01
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's right. You're unique. Nobody in this room understands the depths that you have gone, you know.

00:37:00:04 - 00:37:22:10
Speaker 4
And what amazes me is that, you know, for a few years, Ali was okay with me saying publicly that I was an addict. I actually at one point started, teaching an adult Bible, Sunday school class. I originally told the pastor I couldn't do it because I'm a sex addict in recovery, and I can't guarantee I'll never slip.

00:37:22:10 - 00:37:32:07
Speaker 4
And so therefore I'm disqualified. Right. And he was a great pastor who said, For God's sake, teach the class. Right.

00:37:32:09 - 00:37:34:00
Speaker 1
Adulterers and the tax cheats.

00:37:34:07 - 00:37:35:01
Speaker 2
Right?

00:37:35:03 - 00:37:46:27
Speaker 4
So I did and talked and I only I said, I'm an addict. By and I but I was very general about it and that because Ali was afraid that if I said sex addict, right, everybody would run.

00:37:47:00 - 00:37:47:08
Speaker 1
At.

00:37:47:08 - 00:37:48:27
Speaker 4
Someone and we'd lose friends, right.

00:37:48:29 - 00:37:54:21
Speaker 1
Do you think the stigma with sex addiction today is what the stigma was with alcoholism in the 40s?

00:37:54:21 - 00:37:55:10
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.

00:37:55:10 - 00:37:56:15
Speaker 4
Oh I do, I do, yeah.

00:37:56:16 - 00:38:02:24
Speaker 1
You just get ostracized and show side because the mind goes to the worst.

00:38:02:24 - 00:38:03:07
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.

00:38:03:07 - 00:38:22:10
Speaker 1
When you when you say that. Yeah. I mean it was hard for me to say that. Yeah. And I, because of that, I mean, again, the mind goes, the people who don't know. Yeah. Just assume that you should be on a registry somewhere and you're out. Yeah. Cruising the neighborhoods.

00:38:22:12 - 00:38:30:22
Speaker 4
That was, that was our worst imagining. But I will tell you what has happened. Oddly, we didn't lose any friends when I finally said it.

00:38:30:28 - 00:38:32:18
Speaker 1
It's great. Those are good friends.

00:38:32:18 - 00:38:55:04
Speaker 4
And it made us oddly magnetic. Because the odds are now I'm the safest guy a guy is going to meet, right? Right. I, and even though it's amazing, Ali will sometimes we'll be going in a, you know, a party. Someone should go. For Pete's sake. Please, just don't say sex addiction tonight. Let's not talk so much.

00:38:55:07 - 00:38:57:29
Speaker 2
Oh, I'm an addict...

00:38:58:01 - 00:39:05:04
Speaker 3
Oh, okay. Do you want the salad or the soup?

00:39:05:07 - 00:39:07:27
Speaker 2
But. But it's amazing how the kind of the conversation.

00:39:08:00 - 00:39:10:26
Speaker 1
Well, the freedom that comes from that you want to kind of shelf from the room.

00:39:10:27 - 00:39:14:04
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. You know, the conversation will get the care of.

00:39:14:04 - 00:39:19:21
Speaker 1
That secret for so long. Yeah. Shame that connects to it when you finally real, you know, it's like, yeah.

00:39:19:27 - 00:39:22:23
Speaker 2
Hi. I'm I'm an addict. Hey. You know.

00:39:22:25 - 00:39:33:02
Speaker 4
But here's what I see. Time after time again, I say it, and there might be just a little bit of a blink for a minute, but then people lean in because. Oh, you mean the thing nobody will ever talk about.

00:39:33:02 - 00:39:34:13
Speaker 2
You'll talk about.

00:39:34:15 - 00:39:34:28
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:39:35:04 - 00:39:41:03
Speaker 4
And even if they don't, even if they don't say it, then I'll get a phone call, right?

00:39:41:05 - 00:39:52:08
Speaker 3
Yeah. Do you feel like in the last 20 years with the internet. Because I feel like you had to work like you put in a lot of effort. Like you had maps? Oh, yeah. I can find white pages. Like.

00:39:52:11 - 00:39:55:07
Speaker 2
That was a lot of effort, that's all. Exactly. I was.

00:39:55:10 - 00:40:14:08
Speaker 3
Yeah. Good on you for the diligence, really. But now it's like it might be more accepted because I can't. I can't think of a friend who is in a marriage that hasn't come to me and said, I'm really struggling in my marriage because my husband's addicted. Yeah. To porn.

00:40:14:08 - 00:40:14:25
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:40:14:27 - 00:40:17:18
Speaker 3
And so do you think that's why it's like, more comfortable?

00:40:17:18 - 00:40:18:21
Speaker 4
I think so.

00:40:18:24 - 00:40:20:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah.

00:40:20:13 - 00:40:30:18
Speaker 4
I've noticed a real sea change even in the church. When I first started speaking on this in 2 in 2007, I didn't get a lot of invitations.

00:40:30:20 - 00:40:32:21
Speaker 2
Right.

00:40:32:24 - 00:40:36:12
Speaker 1
Well, I spoke on it once, and all the women that all it was.

00:40:36:17 - 00:40:39:19
Speaker 3
I was there tops off as.

00:40:39:22 - 00:40:41:17
Speaker 2
Standard people.

00:40:41:19 - 00:40:57:06
Speaker 1
But they were in the back in and outside in the hall. Yeah, yeah. And I said that a pastor. What are they. I thought this was a men's thing. He goes, can't help. But every time we do one of these particular things, they want to see whose husbands are here. And I go, that's that's wrong on so many levels.

00:40:57:06 - 00:40:58:13
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah.

00:40:58:15 - 00:41:03:19
Speaker 1
And again, the stigma that gets carried with. Yeah. You know, and I think you think it's getting broken.

00:41:03:22 - 00:41:33:07
Speaker 4
Yes. It's there because the desperation is growing, right. There isn't a family that's unaffected. Right. There's rarely a marriage that's unaffected. And also it's no longer a guy thing exclusively. Now, almost all guys I mean, a very high percentage of guys, but a growing percentage of women sucked into this thing. And I can remember when I first started talking, I, I've spoken to a number of colleges.

00:41:33:07 - 00:41:41:05
Speaker 4
I loved speaking in college, but inevitably there'd be 1 or 2 girls that would linger afterwards.

00:41:42:29 - 00:41:44:05
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:41:44:08 - 00:41:45:06
Speaker 4
And I yeah it's weird.

00:41:45:06 - 00:42:09:04
Speaker 3
I've never found another woman that struggles. At least they don't talk about it or what's happened in my life particularly I think because being in entertainment and the way I look is like extremely feminist. We don't need no man, right? Women are generally in my life and our friends and they're like, oh, that makes me a better woman.

00:42:09:06 - 00:42:33:21
Speaker 3
Like there's no there's no shame attached to it. There's no this is a sin. It's like, you know, you've heard it a million times. I don't need no man because I've got this or whatever. And so that's kind of how I got roped in to struggling with sex addiction. Because if you were in a monogamous relationship, especially in the West Coast, and being an atheist and not being in the Christian culture, it was like, oh, well, you're so empowered.

00:42:33:21 - 00:42:40:20
Speaker 3
Yeah. And you can take any man you want because you have that freedom. And yeah, I wish I could be like you because you're a boss

00:42:40:20 - 00:42:56:27
Speaker 3
or like whatever. And it's like, now that I have Christian values, it's not that the shame came later, but the repentance and the understanding like, this is a problem. This is something that especially for a woman, it's so easy.

00:42:56:27 - 00:43:00:03
Speaker 3
I mean, I never had to pick up anyone in a rain, right?

00:43:00:03 - 00:43:00:15
Speaker 4
Sure.

00:43:00:15 - 00:43:04:01
Speaker 2
Ever. I mean, what I'm exactly it was.

00:43:04:01 - 00:43:13:11
Speaker 3
I didn't realize they would pay me. I wasn't on that Ramsey plan. So, like, dang it, no 401K over here.

00:43:14:16 - 00:43:29:21
Speaker 3
But it's just like there was this piece where it was like, you're empowered, you're empowered, you're empowered. And then becoming a Christian much later in life, wanting to then remove this piece from my life. And I didn't realize how big the struggle.

00:43:29:23 - 00:43:30:16
Speaker 4
Was going to be.

00:43:30:16 - 00:43:53:13
Speaker 3
It was, I mean, in the beginning of my walk with Christ to stop meeting men just off apps. Yeah, like just okay, well, what flavor of the week do I whatever. That was a huge step. Sure. Like whatever I do, I'm not going to show up anywhere in person. And then it was like that was step one. And then it was, well, I'm not going to send filthy things anymore.

00:43:53:14 - 00:44:23:22
Speaker 3
And then I took another year and then I met my husband now and it was like, okay, well, I do feel like in the sanctity of marriage that pornography is a type of adultery. And then having that definition of marriage was like a whole new. Sure. Oh my gosh. Because I remember in my last marriage, I got caught one time because my car, he took my car and it was Bluetooth to my phone, and he hadn't even left the driveway.

00:44:23:25 - 00:44:24:20
Speaker 2
He starts my.

00:44:24:20 - 00:44:44:13
Speaker 3
Car and he goes, and he's like, what are you doing? Yeah. And I'm like, oh, I thought you were gone. Sorry. And it was just bad communication in the marriage because. And that's a whole nother thing. But then being like, okay, well, I don't want this issue. And then now dwindling down, dwindling it down, dwindling it down.

00:44:44:18 - 00:45:05:27
Speaker 3
I've gotten to the point where it's like, okay, well, if I'm not looking at anything, but then I know in my heart that going through that spank bank roll of the highlights. Yeah, yeah. Isn't this adulterous as well. And so it's just it's this constant turmoil of, okay, I was here.

00:45:05:29 - 00:45:06:14
Speaker 2
Well, okay.

00:45:06:14 - 00:45:12:15
Speaker 1
So I could tell you that there was something to talk about. The the visual in your head.

00:45:12:15 - 00:45:14:25
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:45:14:27 - 00:45:25:23
Speaker 1
You know who I'm stepping over my bounds as a husband. But there was a time that I. I can remember making love to Tami, and she would. I look at her and she'd be like.

00:45:25:25 - 00:45:26:13
Speaker 3
Checked out.

00:45:26:13 - 00:45:44:14
Speaker 1
Checked out. And I'd look at her and she goes, oh, you're back here. I don't know where you went. Yeah. You know, but you weren't here and you weren't with me. We weren't. Yeah. And I took you out of my hands how many times after making love where she said, that was wonderful. You were here the whole time you're here.

00:45:44:19 - 00:45:53:00
Speaker 1
And that's the another thing you finally get off of looking at it. But all those images. Right, you can dial up inside.

00:45:53:00 - 00:45:53:22
Speaker 3
At any moment.

00:45:53:24 - 00:45:54:02
Speaker 1
And then.

00:45:54:06 - 00:45:55:10
Speaker 2
Yeah, which is, which.

00:45:55:10 - 00:45:57:07
Speaker 4
Is a barrier to real connection.

00:45:57:07 - 00:46:02:00
Speaker 1
Well that's it. And that's the thing we talk about every Monday. Yes, we have an intimacy disorder.

00:46:02:00 - 00:46:02:09
Speaker 4
Right.

00:46:02:09 - 00:46:22:16
Speaker 1
Exactly. That's the that's the thing. Yes. It's yeah. To try to get close and I can remember sharing years ago and on a radio show, somebody was asked me what I thought, you're a Christian. And it was one of those secular. Yeah. You know, they were mocking you guys looking at Playboy. And he says, well, give us your thoughts on pornography.

00:46:22:16 - 00:46:41:10
Speaker 1
I said, well, simply, I said, it just lays a layer of dirt over my soul. And the more I look, the more dirt. But it keeps me from getting close to my wife, you know? And, I just feel like if I don't.

00:46:41:12 - 00:46:51:24
Speaker 1
Then I can. I can get closer to her. And that's that's the goal. You don't realize the distance until you start getting close. Yeah. And also the pull back. Yeah, yeah. Holy cow. That's frightening.

00:46:51:24 - 00:46:53:14
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.

00:46:53:17 - 00:46:59:18
Speaker 1
So when you and Ali, I mean, obviously you had years of sobriety. How long did it take you to where you felt that connection?

00:46:59:18 - 00:47:21:14
Speaker 4
Was it it it took a few years. We actually I slept in a closet for the first couple of years. And one of the things that they told me in, in early recovery that I discounted, I did not believe it. And I found all kinds of Christian support for the opposite view was they told me, you know, here's the definition of sobriety.

00:47:21:14 - 00:47:32:09
Speaker 4
It's no sex with self or partners other than the spouse. They said sex is optional. I want you are crazy.

00:47:32:11 - 00:47:44:15
Speaker 4
I honestly, I classified sex as, more important than food and sleep. I'd forgo those for sex any day at all. As essential as air and water.

00:47:44:15 - 00:47:47:28
Speaker 2
Really? Right. And I really.

00:47:47:28 - 00:48:14:24
Speaker 4
Thought I would die without it. The idea that somebody should could ever live a happy, fulfilled, contented, productive, celibate life that seemed absolutely impossible, right? Ridiculous. Until I met all those people. But I kind of had enforced celibacy early on. I mean, Ali didn't. She had no reason to trust me.

00:48:14:24 - 00:48:15:02
Speaker 1
Right?

00:48:15:02 - 00:48:36:01
Speaker 4
Exactly right. And she she had she was dealing with serious betrayal trauma because I had I had, Gaslighted that woman so successfully for so long, for 20 years that it. I mean, it came out of the blue when she found out what I'd really been doing. It was devastating.

00:48:36:04 - 00:48:39:00
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:48:39:03 - 00:49:03:29
Speaker 4
And and she was, although she didn't leave, you know, we had an in-house separation. She she she was never cruel. She kept her distance emotionally. But she was she was civil. She was kind, and she watched, and she was not going to reengage lightly. Right.

00:49:04:02 - 00:49:05:18
Speaker 3
How many years did you sleep in the closet?

00:49:05:18 - 00:49:06:11
Speaker 2
Two years.

00:49:06:14 - 00:49:08:03
Speaker 3
Two years? Walk in or...?

00:49:08:06 - 00:49:11:14
Speaker 2
Yeah. It was okay, but yeah.

00:49:11:17 - 00:49:14:27
Speaker 4
Once I put the bed in there, you had to step on the bed to get to the closet.

00:49:15:00 - 00:49:17:12
Speaker 3
Okay. Oh, there was a bed. Okay. Yeah, yeah, I wasn't sure about that

00:49:17:13 - 00:49:19:07
Speaker 4
Well. It was air mattresses is what it was.

00:49:19:13 - 00:49:23:24
Speaker 3
Okay. Yeah. I tried like a Harry Potter.

00:49:23:27 - 00:49:25:17
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:49:25:20 - 00:49:49:29
Speaker 4
But we we renewed our vows after five years, but by then, it. See, here's the thing. At to get a little physiological. Biological here. You know, at the moment of climax, it's a there is a release in the brain of a bonding chemical, oxytocin. It's the same one that's released in the brain of an infant and a mother during breastfeeding.

00:49:49:29 - 00:50:20:15
Speaker 4
It's the bonding chemical. Now, I had spent years bonding with phantoms and bonding with strangers. I had, a huge cast of characters. I could go to bed with a cast of thousands. Ali was well aware during those years, and, and and I viewed sex as a performance as the culture does. Right. Right. With goals in mind, intimacy for me was solely sexual intimacy.

00:50:20:18 - 00:50:52:21
Speaker 4
So if I got any signal of encouragement from my wife, I was always swinging for the fences. She knew exactly what I wanted, which was not connection, intimacy. It was sex. I'll tell you what. When I first experienced sexual intimacy and bonding and there was nobody else in the bedroom that was so many orders of magnitude better than anything I ever paid for.

00:50:52:27 - 00:50:54:01
Speaker 3
Like what God intended.

00:50:54:07 - 00:50:55:17
Speaker 1
Yes, right.

00:50:55:20 - 00:51:00:18
Speaker 4
It started dawn on me. I'd spent a few hundred thousand dollars on bad sex.

00:51:00:20 - 00:51:01:14
Speaker 1
Yeah, right.

00:51:01:16 - 00:51:04:23
Speaker 4
Yeah, because there was no connection.

00:51:04:25 - 00:51:05:28
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:51:06:18 - 00:51:07:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. It's just biological.

00:51:08:00 - 00:51:08:28
Speaker 4
Right? Exactly.

00:51:09:01 - 00:51:09:21
Speaker 1
That's it.

00:51:09:21 - 00:51:13:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we're we're we're.

00:51:13:07 - 00:51:23:26
Speaker 4
We're wired for connection. For intimacy. That's where meaning and fulfillment. That's where it is. That's what were made for.

00:51:23:28 - 00:51:35:02
Speaker 3
Well, you were saying how it was an intimacy issue. And then listening to both of you talk about the oxytocin for me. And I don't know if this is a lot of females that struggle with sex addiction or just me, but it was like.

00:51:35:08 - 00:51:36:04
Speaker 1
I was just, you.

00:51:36:06 - 00:51:37:21
Speaker 2
Know, it was to just get there.

00:51:37:21 - 00:51:58:20
Speaker 3
Alone on this island. I was always looking for somebody to not abandon me. Yeah, like, I just didn't want to be abandoned. And so I would have that bonding, and then I would be like, oh, well, maybe I'll just be so great that he'll pick me and he'll love me, and I'll finally have someone that loves me and I won't be alone anymore.

00:51:58:20 - 00:52:19:04
Speaker 3
And then what was so sick about it was I knew subconsciously, that they'd just reject me in some way or another, so I'd either reject them extremely cruelly to hurt them first, or I would allow them to reject me if I wanted, like a second hook up. Or do you actually want to go out and have dinner? And then when they would reject me, it would just solidify everything.

00:52:19:04 - 00:52:23:28
Speaker 3
I thought about myself that I am worthless, that I am not good enough, and all of.

00:52:24:00 - 00:52:28:22
Speaker 1
All of that. I can almost hear the demonic going “See, I told, I told you.”

00:52:28:22 - 00:52:29:20
Speaker 3
Yeah, it's like this.

00:52:29:20 - 00:52:35:19
Speaker 1
Like “you have to keep testing this. Yeah, yeah. You are worthless, you know?” Yeah.

00:52:35:21 - 00:52:56:10
Speaker 4
I am so grateful. I have real sympathy right now. I do, and one of the. We do a newcomer meeting, virtual newcomer meeting every day on Samsonsociety.com. I do one a week. And I've noticed over time we've been doing it now for seven years that the demographic is starting to skew younger. I'm getting more and more younger, folks.

00:52:56:10 - 00:52:56:27
Speaker 1
That's great.

00:52:56:27 - 00:53:01:13
Speaker 3
Yeah, I don't know how to break this to you Nate, but that's because you're getting older.

00:53:01:15 - 00:53:05:22
Speaker 2
Yeah, I know I've asked him. What do you mean?

00:53:05:27 - 00:53:11:05
Speaker 4
Because I entered recovery at 42. I initially thought you had to be at least 40 to get it right.

00:53:11:09 - 00:53:12:06
Speaker 3
Oh my gosh.

00:53:12:06 - 00:53:13:12
Speaker 4
But now I'm.

00:53:13:12 - 00:53:14:19
Speaker 3
Encountering I'm.

00:53:14:19 - 00:53:15:01
Speaker 4
Encountering.

00:53:15:01 - 00:53:17:01
Speaker 1
Well, the digital thing is kids.

00:53:17:03 - 00:53:19:21
Speaker 4
They they've been a hardcore porn since they were eight.

00:53:19:29 - 00:53:29:22
Speaker 1
That's like when I got into AA, they said that, cocaine is speeding up the bottoming out process. Yes. Yeah. You know, they're getting you you just have to wait till you had fatty liver disease. Yes. Before you got it.

00:53:29:23 - 00:53:30:16
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.

00:53:30:22 - 00:53:38:19
Speaker 1
And same now with the digital porn. That's whatever. Starting at eight, nine, ten. And it's rewiring in the brain.

00:53:38:19 - 00:54:01:01
Speaker 4
So I'm in meetings with guys in their early to mid 20s who are ready to quit. I've been trying for years to quit. Don't know how to do it. They feel doomed. They're never going to be able to have a relationship. It may very well. They've tried it. It'll mess up. I'll tell you what the it. It's messing up young men.

00:54:01:03 - 00:54:25:07
Speaker 4
Physiologically, the rates of erectile dysfunction, right, have gone for that. You know, in that age, male males 18 to 30 has gone from a historically stable 2% to 30% since the advent of, tube sites, streaming video and the iPhone.

00:54:25:10 - 00:54:30:06
Speaker 3
What's wild is like I remember do you remember Viagra like, so like, oh, yeah.

00:54:30:06 - 00:54:30:10
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:54:30:10 - 00:54:49:10
Speaker 3
These old ancient men. Yeah. And now it's like every Young Guys podcast. Everything is sponsored by Bluechew just to. Yeah, yeah. It's so wild. And my son, he's 15 and it's so funny how much the world started to pivot, because I remember my parents telling me, like, you know, you don't drink and you don't do drugs and you don't mess with those things.

00:54:49:10 - 00:55:07:13
Speaker 3
I never told my son that I was like, you have an iPhone. You don't touch porn. Like, yeah, eight years old on it was like this really open conversation. Kids might try to show you something. Yeah. And then the once you see it, that brain chemistry starts to change. And he started public school today actually. And I'm like, that's my biggest fear.

00:55:07:19 - 00:55:11:09
Speaker 3
I'm like, vape do coke.

00:55:11:11 - 00:55:12:09
Speaker 2
Please.

00:55:12:12 - 00:55:19:06
Speaker 1
My son came home with a bread fire. Green Bay Baker, Jersey. I said I should just shoot heroin like other kids.

00:55:19:08 - 00:55:21:13
Speaker 2
Are gonna say, get a.

00:55:21:14 - 00:55:24:06
Speaker 3
Girl pregnant in the back of a truck. Be normal.

00:55:24:08 - 00:55:25:17
Speaker 2
You know what's

00:55:25:17 - 00:55:26:10
Speaker 2
But it is

00:55:26:10 - 00:55:28:08
Speaker 1
It's, it's a,

00:55:28:08 - 00:55:42:15
Speaker 1
it's a pistol to the head. And you don't know. I told my sons when they were growing up at the. I don't know if, you know, because I believe alcoholism is genetic. Yeah. Or disposition. Yeah. For it. And I said, you don't know, so don't pick one up.

00:55:42:21 - 00:55:43:21
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.

00:55:43:23 - 00:56:03:02
Speaker 3
I had an SA book in the house because I went to SA meetings for some time, and we were moving just recently, actually, and my son picked it up, and this is the shame, but my son picked it up, and, you know, it's all white. Yeah, he's on it. He opens it up because we're going through books and he opens it up and he reads what it is and he goes, eww gross.

00:56:03:02 - 00:56:24:24
Speaker 3
What's wrong with Brent, who's his stepdad. And then I had too much shame to admit. It's me. It's your mom. Yeah, yeah, like I didn't want him to view me that way. Yeah, yeah. And it's just that shame. And then SA meetings. I wanted to bring this up because as a woman, I tell Jeff all the time, I think it's so hard to go to SA meetings because in two ways.

00:56:24:24 - 00:56:29:04
Speaker 3
One, you walk in and I would dress like a homeless bag lady because I.

00:56:29:04 - 00:56:31:09
Speaker 2
Didn't want to. Not that that doesn't help.

00:56:31:11 - 00:56:57:15
Speaker 3
Not that I'm like a hot stache anyways, but I dress like a homeless bag lady and kind of like, yeah, yeah. I'm like, I don't know what to do, and I don't want to be anybody's stumbling block. And, the dudes would still look at me like, I've seen this movie. I'm ready. I've been waiting for this and then, you know, the after the meeting would be like, oh, we don't have any other females here, but if you want, call me any time or text.

00:56:57:15 - 00:56:57:22
Speaker 2
No.

00:56:57:22 - 00:56:58:10
Speaker 4
Bad idea.

00:56:58:11 - 00:57:15:14
Speaker 3
And then the first meeting I went to, I fell for it because, oh, no, I was sincere. And then all of a sudden they started sending me pictures of, like, his room. And I was like, oh, he's testing boundaries. Yeah. He doesn't realize, like, hey, buddy, I'm. You were the same two peas in a pod. And so he was testing boundaries.

00:57:15:14 - 00:57:30:06
Speaker 3
And so I was like, okay, I can't go back to that meeting. And then on the flip side, I went to a much bigger meeting because I was like, I'll just blend. Same thing. Just the only female in the room. It was all young men. And then it flipped my brain and I was like, I've seen this movie before.

00:57:30:09 - 00:57:32:17
Speaker 2
Hey. Yeah.

00:57:32:19 - 00:57:33:10
Speaker 3
And so.

00:57:33:16 - 00:57:35:18
Speaker 1
The belle of the ball every night I.

00:57:35:18 - 00:57:36:27
Speaker 2
Know I.

00:57:37:00 - 00:57:57:17
Speaker 3
Light them up. Not good. And so I just wondered, for me, it's that personal connection thing. Yeah. Is there do you look for female meetings in person? You said earlier like, oh, no, I really like the zoom meetings now. Yeah. Does, forgive me dyslexia? Samson. Yeah. Help me.

00:57:57:21 - 00:57:59:09
Speaker 4
Samson society.

00:57:59:09 - 00:58:01:11
Speaker 3
I was like “center? society?”

00:58:01:18 - 00:58:01:27
Speaker 2
You get.

00:58:02:01 - 00:58:07:00
Speaker 3
Scholar like dyslexia. Have meetings for women online.

00:58:07:02 - 00:58:14:07
Speaker 4
We do not. I am praying that God will, inspire some women to start one.

00:58:14:09 - 00:58:16:07
Speaker 3
Okay. Can you train me to start a meeting?

00:58:16:12 - 00:58:19:05
Speaker 4
Sure, I absolutely can. Oh, I can absolutely.

00:58:19:05 - 00:58:23:06
Speaker 3
Yeah, because I got some ladies that might want to try to get off the sauce. Maybe.

00:58:23:08 - 00:58:26:18
Speaker 4
Okay. Yeah. Oh, that would be tremendous.

00:58:26:20 - 00:58:27:18
Speaker 2
That's a wonderful.

00:58:27:21 - 00:58:35:13
Speaker 1
Well, you can, mute the video and not say anything, and they wouldn't even know you're a woman. You know, you can listen to them.

00:58:35:14 - 00:58:37:09
Speaker 4
Well, no, she wouldn't be able to.

00:58:37:11 - 00:58:38:06
Speaker 2
Because you she wouldn't.

00:58:38:06 - 00:58:52:18
Speaker 4
Be able to join a meeting. Now, the only way you can get to a virtual meeting is to first attend, a a newcomer meeting. And we've got a. Yeah. Samson is guys only. Oh, so there's no way a woman can get in to.

00:58:52:18 - 00:58:53:08
Speaker 1
He-man. Woman.

00:58:53:09 - 00:58:56:10
Speaker 3
So you have Samson’s society and you have Sarah

00:58:56:11 - 00:59:03:02
Speaker 4
Because we sometimes have wives who want to manage their husbands recovery, and they want to get all up in the middle of it.

00:59:03:04 - 00:59:07:09
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah. Okay, so you have Samson and then the betrayal, the wife.

00:59:07:09 - 00:59:08:22
Speaker 4
That's called the Sarah Society.

00:59:08:24 - 00:59:10:22
Speaker 3
Can I start the Delilah Society? Yeah.

00:59:10:25 - 00:59:15:23
Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

00:59:16:00 - 00:59:20:13
Speaker 4
I did go to one Samson meeting in Florida.

00:59:20:14 - 00:59:21:04
Speaker 3
You told me all.

00:59:21:04 - 00:59:28:13
Speaker 4
Women, it was all women. It was an in-person meeting, and it was stunning. They were doing what we were doing.

00:59:28:16 - 00:59:32:15
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah.

00:59:32:17 - 00:59:48:06
Speaker 3
Because the SA thing for women is just so difficult. And I think for a lot of women, it's more the love addiction, the love and romance addiction piece. Yeah. And so you can go to places like celebrate Recovery that have like codependency issues and stuff.

00:59:48:06 - 00:59:48:21
Speaker 2
Right.

00:59:48:23 - 00:59:53:05
Speaker 3
But when you're sitting at Celebrate Recovery and you're just like, I went through a trail of dudes.

00:59:53:11 - 00:59:53:17
Speaker 2
Like.

00:59:53:24 - 01:00:01:03
Speaker 1
Wow, wow, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It’s too much for them. And being a public figure. Yeah.

01:00:01:05 - 01:00:01:17
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah.

01:00:01:17 - 01:00:05:25
Speaker 1
I like going down to, Nashville. Oh, Jeff Allen, what are you doing?

01:00:05:25 - 01:00:06:09
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah.

01:00:06:09 - 01:00:26:13
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. And, it was awkward because, again, I want to live the perfect. Yeah. Oh. Christian life. And then there's a point where we either either want to live or die. Yeah. And then you just go, the heck with it. I'll take the the hits. But, like, we have a 19 year old in our group on Mondays.

01:00:26:15 - 01:00:30:10
Speaker 1
And we keep telling this young kid, you stick with this.

01:00:30:12 - 01:00:31:01
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01:00:31:03 - 01:00:36:24
Speaker 1
Some woman is going to be so lucky to get you as their husband. Yeah, because you you have no idea.

01:00:36:27 - 01:00:38:00
Speaker 3
Put in the work.

01:00:38:02 - 01:00:49:09
Speaker 1
Put in the work now and then when they. And then it changes. I don't want to say standard, but all of a sudden there'll be triggers of somebody.

01:00:49:10 - 01:00:50:02
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01:00:50:05 - 01:01:12:07
Speaker 1
Who might be abusive. You when you're in it yourself. You think you deserve that kind of person. Yeah. And when you're not in your esteem, by God and and other men. Yeah. Esteem you and tell you, you know, that you're that all of a sudden. God you'll be drawn to a healthy.

01:01:12:07 - 01:01:12:23
Speaker 2
Yes.

01:01:12:24 - 01:01:33:16
Speaker 1
Healthy, healthy woman. Yes. Yeah, yeah. I can't you know, we I think of what Tammy and I have been through just because of me, for all these years. And, she's even said it when we saw the Song of Solomon series and what God wanted from love. Sex. Yeah. Marriage. The ideal. And she just cries for that.

01:01:33:16 - 01:01:57:06
Speaker 1
Yes. You know, that wasn't the life that we. Yeah. That we led, you know. Yeah, yeah. But it can get better. And that's the point I want to make through this whole podcast was that there is help and there is a it is worth the work. Because I've had those days where just sitting in a hotel room the same way I said, I'm tired of you laying on the ground.

01:01:57:06 - 01:02:08:19
Speaker 1
Yeah. And then you go and your brain is go pick up the call pick up the phone, pick up the phone, pick up the phone. I can do this, I can do this. And then finally, I pick up the phone, and then it just goes away. Yeah. You know. Hey, Ron. Hey Nate

01:02:08:19 - 01:02:08:28
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01:02:09:03 - 01:02:10:20
Speaker 1
Yeah, I'm having a hard time.

01:02:10:22 - 01:02:25:00
Speaker 3
You were talking about you and Tami. And my priest told myself and my husband this the other day. And I think you would know the scripture, because I'm going to butcher it. But it's something like everything that's eaten by locust will be.

01:02:25:00 - 01:02:30:25
Speaker 4
Oh, yeah, God will restore, you know what the what the locus have eaten.

01:02:30:25 - 01:02:32:09
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:02:32:12 - 01:02:34:05
Speaker 3
I think there's so much truth in that.

01:02:34:08 - 01:02:58:15
Speaker 4
It's amazing. I remember, you know, doing my first step with my first sponsor, and I tell him this ugly story of my sexual acting out as much as I can remember. And I finish it all up and he goes, he looks and me and he goes Nate do you know what your biggest problem is, he said. Your biggest problem is that you think sex is your problem.

01:02:58:18 - 01:03:12:17
Speaker 4
I didn't get it, you know, because, well, look, it's a it's a problem. It's a big problem. You have to stop and you can't stop on your own. God's going to have to do it. He'll probably use us in the process, but if you think that just stopping that behavior is going to fix you and make you happy, you're crazy.

01:03:12:17 - 01:03:13:21
Speaker 1
It's like whac-a-mole.

01:03:13:24 - 01:03:15:00
Speaker 2
Yeah. He says, yeah.

01:03:15:01 - 01:03:42:13
Speaker 4
In fact, if you do manage somehow to stop this by sheer force of will and nothing else changes, you'll become more miserable and more miserable to be around than you are today. And you'll find something else. Yeah, because you said sex isn't your problem. Sex is your favorite solution. It's the medication that you've been using all these years to numb the pain caused by your deeper problems, he said.

01:03:42:13 - 01:04:01:18
Speaker 4
Nate, you have much more healing and much more repenting to do than you know. Yeah. So as time goes by, we will be talking about wounds and traumas, and we'll be talking about pride and unbelief and fear and anger and resentment, self-pity and self-centeredness. He said, Nate, you're in for a full life makeover

01:04:01:20 - 01:04:02:14
Speaker 2
Wow. Yeah.

01:04:02:14 - 01:04:25:08
Speaker 4
Welcome to the great adventure. Yeah, and he was right. It has been a great adventure. And the changes are which is still underway. I'm far from finished, but, you know, Ali says, you know, as awful as those first 20 years where she'd take him in a heartbeat to get where we are today.

01:04:25:10 - 01:04:25:24
Speaker 2
Oh my God.

01:04:25:24 - 01:04:34:18
Speaker 4
Oh, that's great. And if the only way to the fruit of recovery is so good that if the only way to get there is through addiction, right, addiction is worth it.

01:04:34:24 - 01:04:38:27
Speaker 1
Yeah, I was told you were told probably that someday you'll thank God for this.

01:04:38:27 - 01:04:39:10
Speaker 2
Yes.

01:04:39:16 - 01:05:06:10
Speaker 1
And and I do. I think if it had not been for my proclivities, yeah, I would have never gotten into recovery. And I've never probably one of who knows. I mean, you can't predict, but. Yeah, but through the pain and the suffering, and the willingness to to trudge through all of that, you know, I, I'm ready to go into an intensive to try to get closer to my wife.

01:05:06:12 - 01:05:25:25
Speaker 1
You know, that's the desire for the whatever remaining days God has given us. Yeah. I want to get as close to her as I can. Yeah. To make up for all those years where, whatever it was that kept us that. Yeah, that that veneer, you know, that dirt or whatever, you know, and.

01:05:25:27 - 01:05:28:18
Speaker 4
You were both deprived, right? Right. Yeah.

01:05:28:18 - 01:05:50:21
Speaker 1
You know, and, Yeah. And the fact that she's extended the grace. And again, you can't buy that, to be with someone who knows you and truly knows you and still chooses to. Yeah. To, to express their love for you. I mean, is there anything better than that.

01:05:50:24 - 01:05:51:27
Speaker 2
You know. Yeah.

01:05:52:00 - 01:06:10:18
Speaker 1
And, you know, you sit there, you know, I can remember when I was walking in the shame of this when I was 20 years ago. 15 years ago, really walking in the deep shame of it. And I'd finish a show at a church and they'd come over and they'd say, boy, you just, you know, you and God's got you in, you know, in the back of your head.

01:06:10:18 - 01:06:25:16
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's sitting there. Go. You don't know me. Shut up, shut up. Don't say another word. Just shut up. You don't know me. And I wanted, I don't know how many times just to scream from the pulpit. Yeah, I want to. Yeah. Just tell you what I just did an hour and a half ago.

01:06:25:16 - 01:06:26:11
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:06:26:14 - 01:06:27:29
Speaker 1
And,

01:06:28:01 - 01:06:31:09
Speaker 2
Self-preservation coming for you.

01:06:31:11 - 01:06:50:09
Speaker 1
So then the the enemy would use that. You're coward, you coward. If you were a real man, you'd go up and you tell everybody who you are. Yeah, yeah. You know, so, Nate you have been a dear friend of mine for -- remember meeting at the Frothy Monkey? Those those meetings and, the grace that you've extended me.

01:06:50:09 - 01:07:13:19
Speaker 1
I remember, slipping and falling and stumbling and waiting for the condemnation. Oh, yeah. And it never came. And, again, if you don't have a relationship like this in your life as a man. I highly recommend Samson Society. You can start online. Just go to Samson society.com. You tell them

01:07:13:20 - 01:07:38:09
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah, it's, and it's like 12 step recovery. No dues or fees. And, you know, I I'll tell you what. The virtual meetings defied my expectations. I didn't think that guys could possibly get as close in virtual meetings as they were, or as fast as they do in local meetings. I love local meetings. I'm still a big advocate of local face to face.

01:07:38:10 - 01:07:40:07
Speaker 1
You still go out for a beer afterwards.

01:07:40:09 - 01:07:41:24
Speaker 4
I I've stopped drinking.

01:07:41:24 - 01:07:42:03
Speaker 1
Stopped.

01:07:42:03 - 01:08:04:05
Speaker 4
Drinking, I stopped drinking, but I still go out afterwards for a meeting. After the meeting? Yeah, absolutely. And, strangely, it's in a lot of cases I it now appears that the relationships actually seem to form faster online. Guys get honest quicker. And I think it might have something to do with the, the, the perceived safety of the digital distance.

01:08:04:08 - 01:08:24:05
Speaker 4
This is not a guy who's, you know, my wife's not going to run into his wife, you know, we're miles apart. This is safe. We, we have, we do regional retreats and big national retreat and international retreats every year. And my favorite part of the retreat is always watching guys hug their best friend for the first time.

01:08:24:09 - 01:08:27:21
Speaker 1
Oh, because they've been online. Oh, my gosh, that's so cool.

01:08:27:21 - 01:08:29:06
Speaker 2
Oh that's great.

01:08:29:10 - 01:08:31:02
Speaker 4
And I get to see it over and over again.

01:08:31:09 - 01:08:50:04
Speaker 3
I wonder if the level of intimacy they've had with their relationship with the internet. Is why like that mask is almost gone. Maybe because it's like oh like you were saying how it's trained your brain, like my brain just kicked into what it knows. So it's like, well if I can be this intimate in this.

01:08:50:06 - 01:08:50:27
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01:08:51:00 - 01:08:59:06
Speaker 3
Act out with the computer then it's like, oh well these guys I have this, like safety. Yeah, I don't know.

01:08:59:08 - 01:09:05:14
Speaker 1
Yeah, I don't know I'm doing I'm gonna do my first one. I again I've known you all these years. You've ever bothered to tell me.

01:09:05:16 - 01:09:06:16
Speaker 2
It was the traveling.

01:09:06:16 - 01:09:08:05
Speaker 1
Jeff You could get on the.

01:09:08:05 - 01:09:09:07
Speaker 2
Internet.

01:09:09:10 - 01:09:21:20
Speaker 1
And do these meetings? So I I've just found them. I I'm going to, I think I'm going to Columbus tomorrow. There's one at noon, I think. Okay. I'm not sure if I get in in time. It's noon central or as all time central or.

01:09:21:20 - 01:09:23:15
Speaker 4
Yeah, on the website there. All time central.

01:09:23:15 - 01:09:24:11
Speaker 1
Okay.

01:09:24:13 - 01:09:24:27
Speaker 4
The,

01:09:25:00 - 01:09:26:05
Speaker 3
You mean the Lord's time?

01:09:26:10 - 01:09:34:07
Speaker 4
The Lord, the online guys. Now, we now have guys in over 100 countries.

01:09:34:09 - 01:09:35:20
Speaker 1
Oh, tell this story I want to.

01:09:35:23 - 01:09:36:19
Speaker 2
I'm sorry, but.

01:09:36:19 - 01:09:50:01
Speaker 1
I want to get this in the cool story about that. The, the, the Jesuit, with the, with Lazarus. Oh, okay. This was the coolest thing. Why why we need to be in community. And, he was a first time.

01:09:50:04 - 01:09:50:15
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01:09:50:21 - 01:09:56:12
Speaker 4
First time he'd heard about the Sampson Society a few days before an international retreat in Italy.

01:09:56:15 - 01:09:57:02
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01:09:57:04 - 01:10:21:11
Speaker 4
And, he had, position of great responsibility in Rome. But he came to it, came to the meeting, and, came for the weekend, came to the retreat, wonderful guy. And during the sharing time, at the end, toward the end of the retreat, I had this, you know, he was Irish, got a beautiful Irish brogue, you know, and he said.

01:10:21:13 - 01:10:48:23
Speaker 4
And he said that what we've done here, he says it reminds me of the story of Jesus, and the resurrection of Lazarus. He said there was Lazarus just dead, dead, dead. And Jesus came and and called him fourth called him to life said, Lazarus, come forth. And Lazarus came out of the tomb. But he was all wrapped up in the grave clothes.

01:10:48:25 - 01:10:59:21
Speaker 4
And Jesus didn't take away his grave clothes. He said to his friends, unwrap him and let him go. So I think that's what we've been doing here this weekend. We've been unwrapping each other.

01:10:59:24 - 01:10:59:28
Speaker 2
And.

01:11:00:04 - 01:11:01:19
Speaker 1
And isn't that great?

01:11:01:21 - 01:11:04:15
Speaker 3
It's beautiful and really good, Irish accent...

01:11:04:16 - 01:11:05:21
Speaker 4
Oh, thank you very much

01:11:05:21 - 01:11:06:10
Speaker 1
Very good.

01:11:06:12 - 01:11:07:09
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.

01:11:07:11 - 01:11:11:14
Speaker 3
Well be impressed, Henry.

01:11:11:16 - 01:11:19:09
Speaker 1
Anyway, I heard that today I was listening to one of your podcasts and, Yeah. After you listen to ours, you can go to his. But, not before.

01:11:19:09 - 01:11:19:26
Speaker 2
But that's.

01:11:19:27 - 01:11:20:12
Speaker 4
That the pirate monks

01:11:20:12 - 01:11:21:25
Speaker 3
But first like and subscribe to ours

01:11:21:25 - 01:11:35:12
Speaker 1
Like and subscribe to to ours. And where can people reach you? Outside of just Samson society dot com?. You speak. I know you're headed down to a big convention. Yeah. Yep. Down in Florida to speak. Yeah. Yep. Who's the keynote? I'll be with? Dropping.

01:11:35:12 - 01:11:36:28
Speaker 4
Name dropping for Russell Brandt.

01:11:36:28 - 01:11:40:09
Speaker 1
Yes. Russell Brandt. Yes. The big keynote is really great.

01:11:40:11 - 01:11:40:24
Speaker 2
Thank you.

01:11:40:24 - 01:11:42:02
Speaker 3
That's a pretty big deal.

01:11:42:04 - 01:11:42:24
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01:11:42:27 - 01:11:46:10
Speaker 3
It's weird. You guys are at a boat convention.

01:11:46:13 - 01:11:50:04
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.

01:11:50:06 - 01:11:57:05
Speaker 4
Yeah. You know what? I, my personal email is Nate at Nate Larkin dot com and People can contact me there any time.

01:11:57:08 - 01:12:10:21
Speaker 1
That's great. Yeah. And, believe me, he's a good person to to know. And, if you ever get a chance to see him, speak in public, it's great. But, it's much better to call your friend. Man.

01:12:10:23 - 01:12:13:09
Speaker 4
I feel the same way. Gosh, I really treasure you.

01:12:13:09 - 01:12:16:04
Speaker 1
For everything you've done in my life.

01:12:16:06 - 01:12:18:15
Speaker 4
And thank you for introducing me to this charming woman.

01:12:18:20 - 01:12:19:18
Speaker 1
Oh. She's great.

01:12:19:25 - 01:12:26:04
Speaker 3
Ha, go on All right, all right. I'm growing my hair out.

01:12:26:06 - 01:12:29:15
Speaker 2
Oh. Are you under there? Oh, yeah. What is going.

01:12:29:15 - 01:12:29:23
Speaker 1
On?

01:12:29:27 - 01:12:30:29
Speaker 3
Oh, I got,

01:12:30:29 - 01:12:49:26
Speaker 1
we are here every week. And subscribe somewhere. And we only survive on your sharing. So if you like what you heard, share it. And certainly this one, if you have someone in your life, please, please share this. And once again, I say to the addict, it's watching this.

01:12:49:26 - 01:13:12:06
Speaker 1
You're not alone. There's help out there and you cannot recover alone. You just can't. It's just not the way God didn't set it up that way. So find a brother. Find a group, find a way to go. And, we'd love to hear your stories. So, email us, and send it, to Nate.

01:13:12:06 - 01:13:24:11
Speaker 1
nate at nate larkin.com. I'm sure he would love to hear. I would, if you've been touched by this, it encourages us all in our walk. So thank you. God bless you. And we will see you next week.

01:13:24:18 - 01:13:25:16
Speaker 3
Stay safe