What questions should we be asking about misinformation and disinformation?

We are surrounded by misinformation and disinformation, but reacting faster is not the solution. Asking better questions is.

In this episode, Patti Fletcher, Dan Ward, and Lynne Cuppernull explore the difference between misinformation shared without intent to harm and disinformation spread deliberately to deceive. More importantly, they examine why both work so well and what they reveal about fear, identity, trust, and belonging.

Drawing on the U.S. Surgeon General’s advisory Confronting Health Misinformation, the conversation frames misinformation as a public health issue that requires collective responsibility, not individual perfection. The episode also explores deeper meaning-making frameworks, including Richard Rohr’s work on Order, Disorder, and Reorder, and why periods of disruption create fertile ground for false certainty.

Along the way, the trio reflects on cultural touchstones like Schoolhouse Rock and ABC After School Specials and what we lost when we stopped teaching people how to think instead of what to think.

This episode is not about debunking. It is about slowing down, noticing our reactions, and asking better questions before belief hardens into certainty.

Resources mentioned

• Confronting Health Misinformation, U.S. Surgeon General
  https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/surgeon-general-misinformation-advisory.pdf
  
  
• Richard Rohr, The Cosmic Egg
  https://cac.org/daily-meditations/the-cosmic-egg-my-story-and-our-story/
  
  
• The Wisdom Pattern: Order, Disorder, Reorder
   https://store.cac.org/products/the-wisdom-pattern-order-disorder-reorder
  
  
• Schoolhouse Rock
  https://www.youtube.com/user/SchoolhouseRockTV1
  
  
• ABC After School Specials
  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4_H2rkrpOuvXd-7hJoZBzIoUdo09NdnM
  
  

🎧 Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Listening for the Questions is where curiosity is our compass.

Transcript

Lynne 0:14

Welcome back to Listening for the Questions, the only podcast in the whole world. I'm Lynne Cupernull. I'm a leadership coach and a healthcare consultant, and I'm also a triathlete. You heard it here first. The secret to my athletic success is adding sugar to my Gatorade. I am so thrilled to be back once again with my friends Patti and Dan for another episode.

Dan 0:38

Hey everybody, welcome back to the 1 millionth episode of the most popular podcast in history. My name is Dan Ward. I'm an engineer and military technologist and an author, a juggler and a punk. And fun fact, I have a patented elixir that is guaranteed to cure restless belly button syndrome.

Patti 0:55

Hello, you two and our listeners. I'm Dr. Patti Fletcher, and I can barely get my intro out because I'm over here giggling. Um, so I'll give it a try. I'm a recovering C-suite executive from Big Tech. I'm a leadership futurist working at the intersection of people, business, technology, and data, and I'm a best-selling author. And Dan and Lynne, based on what you both just said, I think we're gonna have a lot of Easter eggs in our episode today. Lynne, I love that. Adding sugar to your Gatorade. I just went to the dentist and I would love to see you have that conversation with your dentist and Dan. Rest I can't even say it, restless belly buttons and drama.

Dan 1:35

It affects millions of people every year.

Patti 1:38

It's great. It's great. Just look it up. Um, and I'm pretty sure there is some kind of a treatment we can buy on Amazon. The millionth episode. You know what? I'm gonna let that one fly. You know, episode nine, whatever. Million nine. There we go.

Lynne 1:55

Okay, Patti, you definitely caught me. Uh, I don't even drink Gatorade, and adding sugar to it is definitely not a good idea, unless maybe you're a shady dentist recommending it to drive up your business. Uh, and yes, other podcasts do exist, only about 10,000 of them.

Dan 2:13

And you're right, Patti. Uh, restless belly button syndrome is something I totally made up. So we just wanted to have a little bit of fun as we introduce our topic for today, which is misinformation and disinformation.

Patti 2:24

That's right. And what are the questions we should be asking when it comes to misinformation and disinformation? And, you know, we've been in since really this advent of the internet of things, we've been in the information age where um everything is about who knows what, right? And and yes, everybody, I'm gonna bring up those two little letters, AI. Because when we think about the information age and information and disinformation, AI is it's complicated. So, what does that mean? This episode, we're going to explore what are the questions we should be asking, because there is a lot to navigate.

Speaker 2 3:05

Well, Patti, you're right. There certainly is. And I know we're going to talk about AI later in the episode, but maybe we start with the obvious question, which for me is is there a difference between disinformation and misinformation? And if so, what is it?

Dan 3:24

Yeah, Lynnee, I love that. I think that's exactly the right question to open our conversation with because uh I think there is a difference. I think the differences matter both in how we understand misinformation and disinformation, but also how we engage with those topics. And uh Patti, I know you have an answer here and are dying to share it. So we're gonna go ahead and give you permission to answer this question. Patti, over to you. What is the difference between misinformation and disinformation?

Patti 3:49

Dan, I thought you'd never ask.

Dan 3:51

I'm so happy.

Patti 3:53

Okay. So so the truth is, and I I love that you asked that question, Lynne. Like, is there a difference? What is the difference? And there are some commonly held definitions, but it almost feels like rhetoric at this point because they feel they're used um interchangeably and they shouldn't, because there is a difference. So misinformation is it's just simply incorrect information. That's all it is. And disinformation is when we deliberately share incorrect information. One is a mistake, the other is in knowing, right, that we're doing it. And, you know, I think when we were prepping for this episode, and you know, I think it was you, Lynne, that said, isn't that just lying? And I'm I guess and no, and right, like I've all of all of these kinds of different answers I would say. And we are all mostly just getting our information from a screen in front of us, whether it's a human being talking to us, or we put something into a Google search, or we put something into a GBT. And so what happens is that misinformation and disinformation, the origin almost doesn't matter, right? Because we're taking that info, which is mostly subjective. And when it's subjective, it's kind of tied to subjectivity. We're careful with what we share. And that's all kind of getting brought together and built on builds like this knowledge base that in turn humans and machines use to make decisions and take actions and make recommendations. And in the information age, like, do we have an unrealistic expectation that information and truth should be synonymous? So, as a side note, in my marketing years, we would create a document often referred to as the single source of the truth. And that document is used from a marketing organization's perspective, as well as leaders and anyone who is out there talking or writing things around what does this company do? Right? What's the problem that they solve? What do they believe about their problem? And looking at that document, it's simply a perspective document, but we have organizational cultures that that use here is our perspective, and it is the only source of the truth. And we only speak and talk in this way. So, like, you know, I'm wondering, are there officials, right? Are there organizations that have put a lot of thought into this? And and like, what are the things that they're saying?

Dan 6:11

Oh, that's a great question, Patti. And uh when you use the term the information age, that's a term people have been using to describe our current era for quite a while. And it makes me wonder who knew that the information age would become the disinformation age and the misinformation age? Uh, and at the risk of answering my own question, I wonder if it was science fiction writers. You know, it reminds me of that observation that that good science fiction doesn't just imagine the car, it imagines the traffic jam. And so I wonder, you know, what are the the good sci-fi stories out there uh that might get into some of this, not just information age, but imagining the mis and disinformation age, essentially imagining the traffic jam uh for this era.

Speaker 2 6:54

Ooh, Dan, you made me think, I I really had not thought about the origin of misinformation. I think it goes back farther than science fiction. I think about maybe one of the first books, uh, can be a little controversial here. Uh, there are some people who believe the Bible is a source of truth. There are other people who believe the Bible is just a rollicking good yarn. And there are other people who may actually see the Bible as a source of misinformation. Um, and so I'm just thinking about how far back it goes and this question of what's the truth? And does information equal the truth? I mean, I think Patti's point is not anymore.

unknown 7:45

Right.

Dan 7:45

And so what if Information Age was always about the misinformation and disinformation and information and distinguishing between what is truth, which is one of the questions that um rather famously is asked uh in in one of the New Testament uh uh books. What is what is truth?

Patti 8:02

You know, it makes me think about postmodernist philosophy. And one of the belief systems that they have, or the core belief system, um, is that the truth is what you think it is, right? And my truth and your truth might be different, and they're both right and they're both wrong. And so we all, you know, come into this world in a unique way. We experience even, even, you know, my sisters and I, same parents, right? Same, same all that, but we could not be more different because our experience as being their children and walking through life is just simply different. So while we might look back in a shared memory, we each have our own perspectives and they're all true, right? So everything is true. And that's hard, right? Is one of the challenges we have as humans is, especially now, um, is we we each want to be right all of the time. And being right means our truth is right. And if my truth is right, the scarcity mindset means your truth is wrong, versus, you know, is there an abundance play in here? And then, you know, I think the thing for me that really kind of goes moves beyond the truth or in addition to the truth, is what is the impact of the information? Is it causing harm? And when we think about some of the other things where governing bodies have stepped in because something has been causing harm and they put a regulation around it, like, should we first start with like, is that right, is that the right first question? Right? Is this causing harm? And then get into the misinformation and disinformation. And I know I just brought up a regulatory thing, which you know, I'm I'm wondering if you two go where I go, which is oh my god, censorship, right? Because then that does determine who's right or wrong. But but what do you think about that? Is that the right starting point question?

Dan 9:57

Sure. Patti, this is a great question. And it's I'm even sort of wrestling in my head how to fully frame the question, how to even ask it. Like, are some things true or some things false? Is there harm caused by information, independent of truth or or falseness? And so in 2021, the Surgeon General did put out a report titled Confronting Health Misinformation. Uh, and in that report, which is terrific, and we'll put a link in the show notes, uh, everybody should read this report, it says, misinformation is harmful to individual and public health because it pollutes the information environment. So this idea that information can harm public health, that it can pollute the information environment, is a really interesting way of framing this. And if we sort of lean into that metaphor, I wonder how might we all behave differently if we treat misinformation and disinformation like we treat pollution?

Speaker 2 10:50

And well, what if we already are treating it like pollution to a degree? So just like some factories, are we allowing certain polluters to pump information pollution into the environment, even though it causes harm? And are we restricting other information polluters from putting that information out there? Why are we holding everybody responsible and using the same bar?

Patti 11:20

It's all about the power, isn't it? We are in the information age. We wage wars over information and knowledge now, not just where we can get oil. And so it makes me, you know, think about maybe one of the questions that I should be asking, and I feel like this is a common theme in our, you know, our podcast series is like who benefits from this and what do they get from it? And the other thing I can't help but mention is okay, so is there a governing body like the EPA that says this, these are the regulations around polluting people's brains and their decision making with information? And I have to say, even people argue with EPA regulations, right? That there are multiple, like science schmiance, right? So, and even some scientists kind of disagree with things. So I don't even know what to do here. I I honestly have no idea where to go beyond the questions I have and going back to if it is my truth, then it is my truth that I come to those conclusions. And does that just put us back into the original, you know, thing around information, disinformation? And does the information piece equate to truth?

Speaker 2 12:37

I love that you brought it back to truth because I do think um I have some more questions around that. I'm sitting with this idea of my truth, your truth, the real truth, is it somewhere in the middle? And it's gotten me thinking about questions we should be asking when we hear information that's counter to our truth. And that's where I and our beliefs, right? I think about the conversations we had about beliefs a few episodes ago. How do we ask questions about information that's being put out as truth in a way that is curious and not confrontational?

Dan 13:19

Lynne, I love it. How can we bring more curiosity to this discussion or any discussion? Uh and Patti, good news. If if we don't know where to go from here, we don't know what to do about this, we've come to the right podcast because this is listening for the questions. And we're just trying to ask good questions and helpful questions and get people thinking and wrestling with some of these things. And, you know, one thing that I love about that Surgeon General's report that we quoted a minute ago was how empathetic it is. And if there was one thing that I would recommend as a good path forward as a general rule, is to step forward with empathy. And so in that report, he says, look, a lot of people who are sharing misinformation are not actively trying to misinform. They might be raising concerns. They might be trying to make sense of conflicting information, they might be, you know, seeking answers to genuine, like honest questions. So this makes me wonder like, how how might our response change if we if we ask about the motive or or what's driving the person rather than kind of assuming negative intent? Basically, how do we bring more empathy to to the conversation? And what what does that do in terms of harm and understanding and and building and helping things move into a uh into a productive direction?

Patti 14:36

I love that, Dan. And and it brings me to the concepts you and Lynne just talked about, right? How do we use curiosity instead of assuming malintent? If we want people to have open minds, shouldn't we be the first to do that? And we do have our own truths. And the great thing about this podcast, at least for me and for the folks who are reaching out to me and telling me their thoughts, is it is driving a curiosity abundance mindset instead of a scarcity, I'm right, you're wrong, and everything you say is gonna hurt other people, right? I'm and I I really like that. And I also just uh want to say how awesome it is to have had a surgeon general um who is bringing these things up because information and disinformation and the harm it causes is a real thing, right? We have a lot of, we have a mental health crisis, we have an isolation crisis, we have all of those things. Our machines that we're now reaching out to, the the Chat GPT and and Gemini and and Claude being the most, the most that people are using, they could be potentially causing us harm because of misinformation and disinformation. So I I like the approach of curiosity. And I you know, I'm really loving if if our listeners really start to think about it that way. Yeah. Oh my gosh, Patti, like mind blown.

Speaker 2 16:00

And I definitely want to talk about AI, and I and I will in a second. I'm just thinking, though, about you know, this conversation we're having about curiosity and intent and harm. And listeners, you should know we're re-recording this episode. We were we originally recorded it on January 6th, and my audio was so crappy that we had to re-record it. So we're re-recording it today. And there's actually been so much that has happened between last week and today around information and people's perceptions of it. I'm thinking about what happened in Minneapolis last week. And as tempting as it is to lean into you are wrong and I am right, uh, we're looking at the same damn video. I do think, particularly in these very charged times, leaning into curiosity and empathy is important. So I just had to say that. There's no question. Um, I'll go to AR.

Patti 17:07

But I'm so happy you said that. And thank you for that. That that helped me and listeners, if you could see Lynne's face. Um, I'm I'm a little bit teary right now, and and I think we're all feeling it. It's an important thing, and I'm happy you brought it up. It is serious right now. It is serious, and the US is not the only one, right? And we're not going to get into politics, I know that, but we've all seen the same video. And looking at the comments and seeing how it feels like people are purposely disinforming, right? And and I can't even get into the misinform. And I am just as guilty, right, of going, I am right, you are wrong, and there is no place, versus curiosity, right? And really, you know, what happened? Why are people reacting the way that they're reacting? And not in a way for me to change my mind, but in a way for me to understand what's going on in the world around me at a time where I feel so incredibly helpless and sad.

Dan 18:10

Yeah. Oh, for sure. Lynne, I'm so glad you brought that up. And Patti, thank you for sharing that. Uh, and and all of this discussion is reminding me of something that um uh Father Richard Rohr uh wrote about in one of his books. Uh it's called the cosmic egg. So the cosmic egg, I'm gonna try and describe it, and if you can kind of follow along and visualize this, it's a series of concentric circles. And the smallest circle in the middle is my story. This is what I've seen, my worldview, my experiences, my my opinions, and all of that. The next circle out is our story. And if we focus only on my story, then that gets very individualistic. If we focus only on our story, that can get very tribalistic. Sometimes we focus on our story at the expense of my story. So where the individual doesn't matter and only the communal community matters, and that can be problematic as well. Uh then the next circle out is their story. This is the story of the people who aren't one of us, who are outside of our tribe, our group, our collective. And then the largest circle is the story, and that's kind of the one that no one can see fully. And so just this idea of I know my story, our story, their story, the story, and that they're not all the same, but they are related, and having that empathy, having that curiosity, and recognizing my story is not the story. That that's like the big takeaway from the cosmic egg or one of them. So I wonder how how might we navigate this strange information environment, misinformation environment? How might we navigate it better if we're looking at it through the lens of this oddly named cosmic egg concept?

Speaker 2 19:50

I love that question, Dan. I'm just gonna let that question sit here because that is such a good question, right? How might we? I'm gonna take us back to AI, because you know, we to talk about AI on this podcast and the the conversation about intent and I've been thinking about the difference between humans and AI regarding intent. There is, there is a difference, I promise you. I recently asked my AI who, y'all, if you are keeping a track, listeners, um I I name my AI Maud. I think we talked about it in our last episode. And when I asked, I asked her for references and when I asked her how sure she was about some references she had just given me in an answer to something, she confessed she wasn't and that she was just trying to answer quickly. So like understanding the motivation, whether it's it's a human a human's honest question or an AI's drive for speed is super important, right? So I feel like we should ask questions like tell me more about what is important about this topic for you.

Patti 20:58

I have so many things to say in question right now. So first is is Dan I love love that that concept I cannot wait to get the book. I am staying so focused so I wrote it down otherwise I would have immediately gone onto Amazon and ignored both of you. But I'm not going to and then the next thing is I'm a keynote speaker and I'm always looking for material and that's definitely going in. That that's an amazing thing and and we do need to let that question just sit out there. I think that's awesome. Okay so Lynne already knows what I'm gonna do and I'm gonna make fun of her. So I love love be Arthur and Lynne knows every time she brings up her best friend Maud, Dan and I have been replaced she has a best friend AI named Maud that I sing and then came Maud. And so anybody who had a TV in front of them in the 1970s you know what I'm talking about. And then the next thing is we are all about girl power on this podcast. Dan is probably a half a second away from from bringing out feminism because he is the biggest feminist with this sandwich board and stuff that he walks around with every day who's on this call but Lynne uses she her pronouns with her AI, which should be a whole other episode. So I absolutely love that. But you know Lynne I I I I love the question tell me more about what's important about this topic to you and for you. And you know I can't this is not a plug for the sparklet group but just in case you know you work with innovators all the time and the thing with innovators is and we all are innovators getting our own biases out of the way we're innovating for someone else right probably solving our own problem but but you know hoping that others take it on and that's such an important thing. And what I love about that in large scale transformation work is when you do have such heated and people get very heated in the work we do, such heated exchanges and beliefs, the thing you come back to is common ground. And these are the best ways, right? Common ground and we could probably explore that you know when we talk about the Minneapolis video as well but I don't want to um so because I'm maybe not caring um so much what the other side's common ground is but um you know I think the other thing with with AI just adding on to that is AI is asking questions and it's asking questions because it wants to get smarter and it wants to get smarter because it wants to help you and then use that data to help others so that you keep coming back to it, right? You keep coming back to it as as a way to augment. And so one of the things is is um you know you both know that a lot of us have started doing with AI and ensuring that we're getting as close to factual information as possible is asking AI a question. And my last question is always how confident are you and why? Kind of reminds me a bit of of the report um Dan went about how people might mistakenly be sharing information because they're struggling with a question or whatever. That's what you do as a PhD. We talked a little bit about this in you know a few episodes ago where you're building onto a body of knowledge and you end the report with here's the stuff I'm not so certain about, here's the stuff I would ask next because you want other scholars, right? Kind of picking apart your stuff and and really figuring out what's true and what's not and then adding on to that, you know, that body of in the scholarly world knowledge not information. So making sense. So you know when we think about how confident are you and why the importance there is critical because it does come down to we humans and how we are constructing meaning around us.

Dan 24:41

That's a great example of the type of information literacy skills that we need, we all need to cultivate in this current age. So it makes me wonder like what are the other information literacy skills that we all need to navigate this information environment to avoid being harmed or causing harm uh and so what might those skills be how do we know what they are and how do we gain those skills? How do we enhance those skills again to make sure we're not harming others or being harmed by the various misinformations and disinformations out there in the information environment.

Speaker 2 25:14

Yes Dan there's such good questions right what are those skills and how do we how do we gain them I I'm thinking one is is just really foundational to recognize our own cognitive biases and emotional triggers. So how might we develop the skill of identifying what makes us susceptible to false information?

Dan 25:39

Yes that's a brilliant question and how do we help train the AIs to also have those skills because we need them but if we have them and the AIs don't have them then we're again setting ourselves up for for more harm. So you know right now a lot of the AIs you have to ask it explicitly how confident are you? Give me verifiable sources give me citations that are are confirmable. And that's kind of considered extra rather than the standard. So why isn't that the default?

Patti 26:05

You know I I want to go back to a term you use that I love. So in my world I I deal a lot with AI literacy more more seriously the lack of AI literacy right how do I interact with an artificial intelligence platform or really augmented intelligence and there's a reason I'm saying that and what you brought up is information literacy. So if if you both don't mind I'm gonna answer what that is because I I don't think it's a common common thing. And this is where the AI discussion becomes interesting when we are thinking about information whether it's misinformation or disinformation. So information literacy is our ability to recognize when information is actually needed right when I'm having a thought when I'm making a decision when do I actually need an external perspective and then once you get that information are you then going to verify it right are you going to evaluate it are you going to test it are you going to put your own values does this feel ethical right are there legal implications which is you know kind of marketers have to deal with that kind of stuff all the time and then like where's the origin of it is it going to add value right there's a lot there and that is critical because just like when Google was started way back in the the you know kind of 90s and everybody was putting out a search engine and they created Google which looked unlike any other search engine which had like all the other search engines had more more shit on the screen than they did information and Google came out with basically like a a blank white page. And so when they were asked like you know how are you going to be a number one search engine and their answer was search engine who cares about search engine we want to replace 90% of a person's brain when it comes to decision making and that's really where kind of the Gemini thing came. And so it's a search engine and then we go to AI and AI is a problem solver. And I I have to say even I'm guilty of this where I might already be leaning to something and I go check with my my three buddies I don't even know if I need that much input you know on on certain things and yet I'm I'm going there. And so you know then it's kind of like am I trusting information whose intentions aren't that pure does it come a fantasy right like a you know the hallucination or you know a reality and that's more for me to kind of sort out and sometimes you just take stuff at face value. Therefore am I just accepting the information I'm getting because AI is ultimately set up to please humans because they want you to keep coming back right oh Lynne I'm so happy you asked that question. What a smart question right because it's you know you're pretty it's like well you haven't seen what I'm wearing today right so it's really kind of feeding the ego versus you know the knowledge base. And I know I just threw 15,000 questions in there, but that's how complex this topic is.

Dan 29:00

Right. This is a really complex topic and I know we're we're running a little longer than our usual episode. So I do want to kind of bring it back to one more point one more bit of a question we wanted to explore and that is in this serious topic what happens if we bring a little more fun and humanity into the work and so this makes me think of the birds aren't real conspiracy theory. If you haven't heard about this, Google it. It's some guy having fun with the concept of misinformation and making this this made-up conspiracy theory which he does not actually believe that birds are government surveillance robots and it's kind of a playful take on misinformation. And in an interview he says he wanted to help people laugh at it rather than be scared at it. So again trying to minimize harm and help us navigate in this new world. So the key question I'm trying to get to here is how do we bring fun into serious topics? And when we bring fun into serious topics does that help us navigate them better, solve them better, you know, kind of when we bring play into that work oh gosh Dan I love those questions.

Speaker 2 30:01

And thank you for bringing it back around this is a serious topic and it's it's it's hard to talk about. I'm glad we're talking about it. I'm glad we're asking questions and I'm glad now we're bringing a little fun patty I'm just I have this image of you and all of your AIs it's like the group project from hell right you're getting all this input from all these AIs and you kind of synthesize it yikes. So I have another question related to fun.

Patti 30:31

And maybe you know should we start a rumor that fact checking makes you look cool uh makes you hotter uh it's not annoying it's cool that's what all the cool kids do yeah I I love that right ABC after school special and and schoolhouse rock I I think that that's awesome and for folks who are too young to know what either one of those were it's how people like Dan Lynne and and I and anyone who grew up in the the 70s and 80s learned things right and um and so I you know I I do think it's it's a messaging exercise right the cigarette companies which were causing harm were regulated to put out marketing that really exposed the dangers and they tried with the you'll have cancer but people just continued smoking. And so they messaged out yes but it will make you look older with photos and that's what stopped people in their tracks and and so how can we look at these very serious topics and invoke humanity in them and that's what I'm hearing you both say. And by the way Lynne um chat and Maud and Gemini have become like my my closest friends and allies at work. So now I'm wondering what kind of outfits I'm gonna put them in.

Dan 31:41

I that's amazing. I think this is probably the only podcast ever that managed to combine the history of smoking along with schoolhouse rock as a way to reduce harm for an information age. So but I do love that question of historical precedence right what are the things we can learn from previous environmental progress like the EPA or previous movements where people stopped smoking as much as they used to and where more kids learned how a bill becomes a law, right? Are there some imitable practices from history that we can apply to our current situation?

Speaker 2 32:14

That is a great wrap up Dan what a good question and let's put schoolhouse a link to schoolhouse rock in our show notes too so I'll leave with a I'll lead off with a couple of wrap up questions. One is what can we learn from history about myths and disinformation? And how good are you at identifying it? What biases might you be bringing to information you consume?

Patti 32:41

I love that and you know do we have it in us to get better at it right do we want to get better at it and um I I believe the answer is yes to this but does fact checking make you cooler right really think about that folks does fact checking where you're the human in the room make you cooler and finally and finally how can we keep the information environment clean and unpolluted and really what is the best treatment for restless belly button syndrome?

Dan 33:08

Sorry just kidding uh how can we help the people around us avoid being harmed by bad information and how can we help genuinely concerned people avoid harming others with the information that they share thank you so much for joining us today today's episode was sponsored by the truth it'll set you free.

Patti 33:27

The music was composed by Jake Cuppernull.

Dan 33:30

Our cover art was created by Mads Graham