Belizean Roots, American Dreams: A Conversation with Dr. John Masson

Transcript

Ernestine 0:00

Welcome to Bon Vivant Chic Life Well Lived the podcast. For anyone who wants to cut through today's noise and just listen for a few minutes. To meaningful conversations on the human experience and the power of connectedness. I'm your host, Ernestine Morgan, an advocate for kindness with a passion for showcasing human interest stories that matter. Today I'm delighted to sit with Dr. John Masson. Dr. Masson is board certified in internal medicine, pulmonary medicine, and critical care medicine. He served as president of the medical staff at Morton Plant Hospital here in Clearwater, Florida. During the initial phases of the COVID-19 pandemic, John and I met through my work at Morton Plant Meese Healthcare Foundation, and he currently serves on their board of directors. John has a very interesting background and I have invited him to sit down with me for a friendly non-clinical. Chat, although we really should include a little look back at the pandemic. John played a critical role for us in our community. So let's get started. John, thanks for sitting down with me today.

John 1:08

Thanks for having me.

Ernestine 1:09

Can you please share a little bit about where you grew up and what life was like?

John 1:14

I grew up in, ex British Colony in Central America. It's frequently on jeopardy. It's the only English speaking country in Central America. It used to be called British Honduras. And then it became Belize, and I believe it became Belize, before it became an independent country in 1981. So Belize, there's a lot of debate as to where the name Belize came from. But at one point I was a British citizen and then I became. Ian in 1981, and then in, 1992 I became a naturalized, American, a proud American citizen.

Ernestine 1:48

Wonderful. So what was life like back then?

John 1:51

We were cattle farmers.

Ernestine 1:53

Oh.

John 1:53

My dad and my grandfather had. Bought, a lot of land and a lot of it was un farmed and jungle and it was mostly used for logging. Everything that was taken out. But it was mostly logging and back then, the environment was not the considered thing, but that's what the family did. Then, my Uncle Herb, started a farm.

Ernestine 2:12

Mm-hmm.

John 2:13

And they took a small portion of the land about four or 5,000 acres 'cause the whole thing was about 40.

Ernestine 2:18

Oh, wow.

John 2:19

And, they, basically raised cattle I did that till I was about 10.

Ernestine 2:25

Oh.

John 2:25

And then we moved separately.

Ernestine 2:28

Mm-hmm.

John 2:28

My dad became part of a, British, sugar company. And so we moved to there. He took a job with them and so the formative years, the beginning part of my life was on a farm. And then to explain to my kids, especially the kinds of high school that I went to, no air conditioning and, just how, rudimentary it was, but we never knew that.

Ernestine 2:49

Mm-hmm.

John 2:49

It was just fantastic. That's where I grew up my family's basically West Indian. So grandma's family were Jamaican. Our family was from Belize, but I think the family was Scotch English at some point. And I'm, Heinz 57.

Ernestine 3:01

I think

John 3:01

there's many of us total, my mother's side of the family are more, that's why I'm bilingual.

Ernestine 3:05

Mm-hmm.

John 3:06

Mom's family are. I guess the best way to describe them as real southern Mexican. The border between Belize and Southern Mexico was very fluid

Ernestine 3:14

ah,

John 3:15

for a long time. And the British, I think in the late 18th century took over, started, they were given logging rights, but then eventually just squatted. And that's how Belize became. British and not, Spanish speaking like the rest of Central America.

Ernestine 3:27

What were some of your fondest memories?

John 3:29

The islands. We never had, vacations abroad we went to the islands a lot. There were, I think there are hundreds, but there were larger ones. There was GH Ski, which I've actually never been to. And that's the one that all the movie Stars and Uhhuh, all this but there was a period of time in Belize where no one knew belize you would be walking along and you could see anyone. The people that knew, I think when, Barbara Streisand and Pelle at Trudeau were, an item,

Ernestine 3:53

a thing,

John 3:54

a thing, that's where they would go, oh,

Ernestine 3:55

you

John 3:55

know, no, it's

Ernestine 3:57

it's not as private now.

John 3:58

It's

Ernestine 3:58

not. No. Yeah,

John 3:59

no,

Ernestine 4:00

I would love to see it. I've never been to Belize.

John 4:03

Belize is very different than when I grew up there. It's almost unrecognizable. Because it's become,

Ernestine 4:09

touristy,

John 4:09

touristy. It's become more essential americany, where the British sort of rules and governance has changed. They're more part of Central America now than they're part of, jamaica and the Western East.

Ernestine 4:19

What were some of your favorite things to do when you were a kid living on Belize?

John 4:23

A lot of it had to do with the farm. So was riding. We had great luck that Belize is basically covered in Mayan ruins and it's basically a one big Mayan city and our farm it turned out to be the largest flint toolmaking factory in the entire Mayan civilization. All the tools.

Ernestine 4:41

Wow.

John 4:42

Because they never had, metal.

Ernestine 4:43

Mm-hmm.

John 4:44

There was a little bit of gold but there was no wheels and everything was obsidian. So the sharpest, tools that they had was made from obsidian. Obsidian, not. Natives to Belize. So you had to be brought from Mexico down to Belize and worked on and these tools made. And I would say from the time I was between the age of six to about 10 or probably longer, we had every year different universities. That would set up camp that would stay for several months. We had Harvard, we had Yale, we had University of Texas, San Antonio, we had Brown, we had all these people were down there. And then at night the Diggs whatever they found that day

Ernestine 5:18

Oh

John 5:19

yeah. Would be found. Wow. And they'd set up an auditorium, and it was teaching and we would go on a Saturday when we came out from school and help excavate. And when I graduated from high school, I was given a rubbing

Ernestine 5:32

mm-hmm.

John 5:32

You know what a steel is? It's basically the hieroglyphics of the Maya but carved into limestone and then, so it's got a relief to it. And they put a cloth on top of it. And they just made basically a, like, you moved a penny riding horses, we saw everything to do with cattle. Life, death, but it was not the life that I lead now. It was a very different life. My first car. Was a cross between two VW bugs that my dad and I put together. You know the round ones? So the engine came from one and then was transferred into the shell of the other one? And it just learning to think outside the box

Ernestine 6:04

get, you had to get creative.

John 6:06

You had to get creative. 'cause once the gas pedal. Cable broke.

Ernestine 6:09

Oh, geez.

John 6:09

And I had a piece of string that I tied on the,

Ernestine 6:11

the

John 6:12

carburetor but I got home.

Ernestine 6:14

Who had the biggest influence, for you when you were young?

John 6:17

As it turns out, a lot of women figure in my life, I would say my mother. But my paternal grandmother was probably the largest influence of my life. She wasn't a sort of a lovey-dovey kind of a grandma, but she instilled first principles. It was all about, there were two ways of doing things the right way and the wrong way. That there were things that you did because that was the correct thing to do. It might not have been the thing you really, really, really wanted to do at the time, but you did the correct thing. She also adored her eldest son my uncle was bookish my dad. Who was the youngest was into fishing and hunting and cattle and the British would give back then in the, during the colonial time the British would give one scholarship. To go back to study, whatever you chose in England.

Ernestine 6:57

Mm-hmm.

John 6:57

And it was at the end of World War II that he won the scholarship. My uncle Andrew wanted to be a doctor, and he left Belize at 17. Found out later Belize had no airport. So you had to leave Belize in a boat.

Ernestine 7:11

Wow.

John 7:11

And guess where he stops? First place

Ernestine 7:14

where?

John 7:14

Tampa.

Ernestine 7:15

Oh my gosh.

John 7:16

We went back and looked and then he gets on a train from Tampa to New Orleans where we had family. And then he gets on another train and he goes to Grand Central Station in New York City. He's 17. He has a piece of paper that says. This kid won the scholarship make way for him, Baba, and he gets on a troop carrier that we're bringing troops back from Europe.

Ernestine 7:36

Mm-hmm.

John 7:37

They would repurpose these, cruise ships that were like the Queen Mary and made them troop carriers, and he met up with all these other kids. Kids from Trinidad and Tobago, Jamaica, wherever. And he went to England and he did his degree in biology, became a doctor, became a general surgeon, and his mom never visited him once, she couldn't

Ernestine 7:56

Oh.

John 7:56

But she just knew he was there, he lived larger than life. And he eventually, went on to great things. He was one of the founding members of the University of the West Indies in Jamaica. He opened a department of neurosurgery, cause he became a neurosurgeon. But that's my grandmother. She just loved. The fact that he had done what he did, he made her proud. And my dad probably said this was a little sacrilegious, but he said that when I graduated from med school that grandma had died many years before. And he said, your grandma would be so proud of you now because if Jesus Christ had not been. A carpenter, his alternative job would've been a doctor. So my grandmother was a huge influence.

Ernestine 8:31

That's terrific.

John 8:32

Huge influence.

Ernestine 8:32

And what about your uncle? Did you get to know him?

John 8:35

Got to know him well, he was a real Renaissance man. He was a great chef. He loved classical music. Back then, when I was able to start visiting him in Canada, 'cause he had moved up to Canada. He actually taught at the university where Dr. Jamin.

Ernestine 8:49

Oh

John 8:49

Small world. Right. Whole Canadian. I know, I know. It's crazy. It's a very, very small world. And, he moved up to Canada. And so I would visit him there.

Ernestine 8:55

Mm-hmm.

John 8:56

And he died well, he was 85 but I was able to talk to him a lot and get his life story down and he would tell me a lot of stuff, when I graduated, he gave me a book and it was, William Osler Equitas. Osler was a Canadian. And he, was at McGill University and then when he came to Johns Hopkins, he's the one that set up the entire, way American medicine is done four years. He put, universities with medical schools. He made them academic because there was a period of time where a med school weren't associated, with universities.

Ernestine 9:25

Mm-hmm.

John 9:26

And he said, four years you have to have a first degree, residency programs, all that stuff. But anyhow, that book, he had a first edition that he had given to his son, my cousin Edward, who was a orthopedic surgeon. And so he said, I can't give you that one, but he says, I have a very fine, copy and he wrote in it. He very nice. And my son Dominick wants to be a physician as well.

Ernestine 9:49

Oh, wonderful.

John 9:50

And so I've said to him, I said, you do it, I'll turn the page. And it'll be your book.

Ernestine 9:54

Beautiful.

John 9:55

So that was my grandmother.

Ernestine 9:57

Inspired you.

John 9:58

Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Ernestine 9:59

That's really wonderful. What was your first job and how do you think it shaped you?

John 10:03

I remember exactly what it was. It was my grandmother's friend, her name was Mrs. Row, and she used to do her Christmas cards every year, and instead of putting them in the mail. I hand delivered them on my bicycle. She'd paid me, like five bucks or whatever it was. I don't remember exactly what it was, but that was my first job. My first job was working for Mrs. Rowe, doing, her,, Christmas card delivery. And I did that every year. That probably was, my whole bicycle and around town.

Ernestine 10:25

It's funny how some of these questions trigger some old memories that you might not have thought about for a long time what are some of the most rewarding moments through this journey?

John 10:35

I would say, collaborating with and I have to say the group of guys that I have, because we would love to have a female partner, and we've really, really tried, but it just seems we kind of batting zero right now. But the guys that I work with and not only the doctors, but the extended staff, everybody are just a wonderful group of people. When I got here in 2002, I was the baby dog and No, I'm the old guy.

Ernestine 10:57

Are you?

John 10:58

Yeah. Then they're,

Ernestine 10:59

and you're not that old.

John 11:00

High water raises all boats. We try to make the water high for everyone. And i'm considered the elder statesman.

Ernestine 11:06

Yeah, the mature one.

John 11:07

Yes,

Ernestine 11:07

I'm sure you've had many pivotal moments or decisions that really change the course of your life. Is there any that really stand out to you?

John 11:16

A hundred percent. Two. They're both involved teachers. One was a teacher in Belize. We didn't have a university. We had, something that called, it was called a sixth form, so it was two years past high school. And then if you wanted to do something more than that, you'd have to leave, go to England, Canada, or United States. And I had a biology test that I did. It was like my final. I think I got like a 75 or something on it. I wouldn't say she was my professor, she, my instructor. Cause it was, much more rudimentary than it would be now. She couldn't have been much older than I was. She had gone to school and gotten a bachelor's degree and had come back to Belize and was teaching, biology. And she could definitely say I was not performing. And she wrote this on the top of my paper. Best of luck when you move to the United States. Hope you're successful, whatever it is. But she wrote, just remember the little adage. Always let your reach exceed your grasp.

Ernestine 12:03

Oh, beautiful.

John 12:04

It just spoke to me. 'cause the story goes on for about 20 years because that one thing was my kick in the butt. And that's when I started dreaming and thinking, okay, I can do whatever it is that I want. And so I did, then, I think I was in my first year I'd gotten into medical school. I don't think I was in residency yet. I think I was still in med school and we connected and I said, Nadine, I am where I am because of what you wrote. At the top of my paper. And she then was in a PhD program at Berkeley and then we lost touch again. And about maybe three or so years later, we connected. And she said to me. I went to med school 'cause of you.

Ernestine 12:39

Oh wow.

John 12:40

Because she finished up I think she got her PhD or whatever it was. And then she went to med school. She said, I talked to you and I felt like I wanted to do it now. And so we still talk every now and again. She's slightly older than I am. I think she works at Kaiser but it was kind of a ping pong kinda thing.

Ernestine 12:54

Oh, that's terrific.

John 12:55

The other person in my life was another professor. And she said to me, show me your syllabus what are you doing? And I showed her what I was doing. She said, what do you wanna do? I said, I want to be a dentist. And she said, so you wanna go to dental school? That's really excellent. That's wonderful. And she said,, so why do you wanna be a dentist? I said, 'cause I don't think I'm smart enough to be a doctor. And she's like, no, no. Wow. And she looked at my schedule and she saw that I had Spanish. 'cause I was trying to get an easy A, she said, no, no, you're doing Italian. And so I did, ended up doing, I don't remember any of it, but she came to my graduation from med school.

Ernestine 13:24

Oh, that's awesome.

John 13:25

Yeah.

Ernestine 13:26

That's awesome. Had you always wanted this career, medicine

John 13:30

yes. I wanted to be like my uncle.

Ernestine 13:32

Mm-hmm.

John 13:32

That was thing goal. Cause Yes, because it wasn't just the medical party, he was just this renaissance man. He was widely respected, widely known, and just knowledgeable in many things other than medicine he said his first, attempts at Suturing was from his grandmother who used to make him sew on buttons. And darn socks.

Ernestine 13:51

Yeah.

John 13:51

And stuff like that, you know what I mean? That's what he would always tell me.

Ernestine 13:54

Yeah.

John 13:55

Gong they call her, her name was, Mary, but they call her Gong and she used to make him darn socks and do all, that kind of stuff.

Ernestine 14:02

That's terrific. The early years of COVID-19 were catastrophic in many ways. Can you share a little about that experience with us?

John 14:12

It was, at the beginning, was the great unknown. We really thought we were on a slow death march. We thought we were weak as our group. Was right in the center of everything we were gonna be hit. And the reason we thought that was because three of my colleagues got sick, one after the other one very sick. And so, we thought it was just a matter of time, but as it turns out, we were probably the best protected 'cause we were masked and, we were, because

Ernestine 14:34

I remember seeing you, you were in that spacesuit

John 14:37

As it turns out, hindsight's 2020 we're probably in the safest place. Because you're thinking about it all the time. But the unknown is worse. The fear of leaving, not so much for yourself, but you had young kids. I remember seeing kids come home from school. I take my clothes off in the garage and run in, the crazy stuff we did. But it was all fear and that was a thing that just. Drove you the whole time and it was, I think the hardest thing that I did was to ask my colleague who had just had a young child a month old, that he had to do what the rest of us were doing. And we were all taking care of one of our partners in the ICU. It was not good. I think that's probably the hardest thing that I had to do. But you have to do it sometimes.

Ernestine 15:15

If you look back, is there anything that you really think we learned through that I mean, we learned a lot.

John 15:21

Know,

Ernestine 15:22

Is there anything that sort of stands out that we learned, from that experience

John 15:26

that we could do it? Even when the walls are crashing down or seemingly crashing down around you, we could do it. We put it together. I keep saying this, but it's the guys in our hospital converted those ICUs into negative pressure by knowledge of how to splice and cut, and they would come by with, their little smoke guns. The door to make sure that when they opened that door it was going in. You know what I mean? And that was, I think, as a result of that, when the other hospital was built.

Ernestine 15:51

Mm-hmm.

John 15:52

That was a built in.

Ernestine 15:53

Oh,

John 15:53

so that was a lesson learned.

Ernestine 15:54

Right.

John 15:55

So that they can do it with a button. It was a scary time.

Ernestine 15:57

I remember the streets. We would go for walks and there wasn't anyone out. We were talking about that the other day.

John 16:03

You remember that? It was something else. I think that's where crazy Uber Eats came.

Ernestine 16:06

Yeah. And if you'd walk by somebody, they wouldn't say hello or anything. 'cause there was like this fear that you

John 16:13

catch,

Ernestine 16:13

you might get sick.

John 16:14

And then devising the first treatments, one of the things, there was a period of time where they said steroids would prolong the viremia. And that you shouldn't use steroids. Independent of what was eventually proven to be the complete opposite. We independently sat down and as a group said, okay, our patients are getting sicker. Okay. And no one should die without a dose of steroids. That's what we have left in the toolbox and we did it and we're ahead of our time. Before any of the drugs, before any vaccination, before anything.

Ernestine 16:42

Thank you for helping us get through that. Our community is blessed to have you here.

John 16:47

I think it was fortuitous that I became president it could have been any other subspecialty, but as it turned out it was a respiratory related illness. And so we could move things faster.

Ernestine 16:57

Yeah.

John 16:57

The Critical Care collaborative came out of that because we started doing Zoom calls and talking and it morphed.

Ernestine 17:02

Absolutely. What lessons about family and relationships would you pass along to younger generation?

John 17:09

Family's, everything. One of my favorite movies my wife and I love the same movie, but separately,

Ernestine 17:14

Uhhuh

John 17:14

Moon struck.

Ernestine 17:15

Oh yeah,

John 17:15

We've seen it a hundred times. For me everything is about family, all familia. If I had to tell kids when you marry someone, you don't just marry them, you marry their entire family. I have the best in-laws that. I could ever ask for my wife's parents. They're like my own, they're my parents. And I have wonderful brother-in-laws. That's how I met my wife. Total accident. Her brother and I were in. Residency together at LSU. And I knew him for about three years before I met her. And he kept bugging me cause he was married,

Ernestine 17:42

Uhhuh

John 17:43

and his wife was from Tampa and she was an OB GYN. And all three of us were in residency together. I knew him forever.

Ernestine 17:50

Mm-hmm.

John 17:50

And he kept telling me, you gotta check out Tampa. I'm like, i'm not coming to Tampa. I thought I was going to North Carolina, Bowman Gray. And I, just kept putting him off. So January 7th, 1999 I finally break down. I was like, I'm coming. So I came, my wife was here and she was working for a drug company. And she was at Innisbrook. And it was instant.

Ernestine 18:09

Oh, that's great.

John 18:10

And so,

Ernestine 18:10

and she's lovely by the way. She is.

John 18:12

So it was a total happenstance. It was unplanned,

Ernestine 18:16

aw.

John 18:16

He was my best man. And then he became my brother-in-law.

Ernestine 18:18

Oh, that's great. Are there any lessons that you have learned that you wish you knew earlier?

John 18:24

I wish I knew more about finances. I think that, I'm learning and I've pushed myself too, medicine is a business and I've learned a heck of a lot and I'm not, afraid of asking. I'm not one of those people who thinks they, because I'm good at one thing, I'm good at everything.

Ernestine 18:38

Mm-hmm.

John 18:38

So I have the ability to ask people, I think they should teach more nutrition courses in med school. cause I think, that's something that's really, really important That probably teach you maybe two hours. And I think they should teach you how to save. Prepare for your future and build a business and that sort of stuff. 'cause I learned a lot of stuff on the fly.

Ernestine 18:56

And they don't do that.

John 18:57

They don't do any of that.

Ernestine 18:58

Hmm.

John 18:58

They don't do any of that. Everything that we learn is about taking care of patients, but I think that may be changing.

Ernestine 19:03

Yeah. That's good. What kind of advice would you give someone that, is interested in going into medical school or just starting out? You just mentioned learning, accounting or financing, right? What other advice would you give?

John 19:16

I think return on investment is something that you need to be constantly aware of. If you don't have parents that can pay for your entire medical school, try and work on getting, cause some kids come out with horrible debt. And I think you start off with owing a mortgage before you even get a house.

Ernestine 19:33

Yeah,

John 19:33

So I've said to my son, Dominic, I'm like, you know, state school, state school, state school, state school. And I've, I went to a state school

Ernestine 19:41

mm-hmm.

John 19:42

I've never been asked. I've been able to rise, I think, to. If you were asking me, that's what I've said to him. I'm like, you gotta think state school for med school.

Ernestine 19:50

Medicine has changed so much and to be a doctor, it used to be, this perception that doctors. Would do well financially. Yes. Right? Yes. And they probably did back in the day. Yes. But now reimbursements have changed and, tuition keeps going up. It's a very noble profession

John 20:08

if it's about making money, then don't go into medicine. If it's about having a job that challenges you every single day, that you learn something every day, that on my most exhausted day, I'm still happy.

Ernestine 20:21

Oh, it's great

John 20:22

that even though I might be drowning. I'm learning something. I'm excited, I'm happy. The one thing I didn't like was losing my first name.

Ernestine 20:28

Losing your first name.

John 20:29

Yeah. I became Dr. Massen. I'm not John anymore. It was Dr. Massen. Dr. Massen.

Ernestine 20:34

I know some of your patients and they adore you. What does a happy and fulfilling life mean to you?

John 20:41

I've lived a lot of it, I have to say, but I think it's individual, for some people retiring at age 50 and, staying at home and not having to work and that sort of stuff is what they wanna do.

Ernestine 20:51

Mm-hmm.

John 20:51

For me. Being a physician, and healing, and affecting the lives of other people in such an intimate way is what I enjoy doing. And I've had the blessing to do it.

Ernestine 21:01

What keeps you inspired and motivated to do what you're doing? Because your job is really, really hard.

John 21:07

Dominic asked me something every single day that he is at school. Things that I take for granted. Of course that's the way it's, he'll ask me a question. Then I have to explain it to him that, when you look at the heart, the right side is actually on the left. He says, Why is the blood, the pulmonary artery, it's artery supposed to carry oxygen? I'm like, no, that one's different. And so I, it's stuff like that. It's cute to see him learning.

Ernestine 21:29

Yeah

John 21:30

especially. And then we have the residency program at the hospital. I enjoy that.

Ernestine 21:33

Oh, that's great. Being a mentor. to a younger generation.

John 21:37

Correct.

Ernestine 21:37

That's wonderful.

John 21:38

Not just to fellow physicians, I have mentored many nurses, many people going to PA school, many, letters of recommendation. For me, I'm about moving the needle in. That's what philanthropy is, right?

Ernestine 21:49

Yeah.

John 21:50

Being impactful. I don't have any significant hobbies. But I am a big history buff.

Ernestine 21:55

Are you, what kind of history?

John 21:56

I love history in general.

Ernestine 21:57

Mm-hmm.

John 21:58

I love medical history. There's a author by the name of Dan Jones. He's a British guy and he has written widely. He's written on Magna Carta and he's done the entire plantagenet, story in many different ways. And I've read all his books. I'm a big, huge fan. He has a great podcast called, this is History I love history and I love the guessing at what the disease process might have been. give you an example. Queen Anne was. The last of the stewards. Cause she had no living children. And so that was the end she was the last daughter of James ii who was the King of England. That was booted out. And in his place, his oldest daughter, Mary and William of Orange. Who are the house of oranges is Dutch? Yes. They come to England as king and queen co regions. They had no children. Their sister Ann becomes queen, and she had one child that died very soon, and then about 17 miscarriages.

Ernestine 22:50

Wow.

John 22:51

And based on her symptoms I think she had lupus. I said that to Dan 'cause I corresponded with him a little bit. The author. I said to him, I think that's what she had. I think she had lupus 'cause I think she had a's called an antiphospholipid syndrome cause you infarct the placenta, so you develop clots and then the placenta can't form. And so the baby. Miscarries.

Ernestine 23:09

Interesting.

John 23:10

So I love all that stuff.

Ernestine 23:11

Yeah.

John 23:12

Or the hapsburgs and the jaw and all the stuff with Louis the 14th. I'm a huge history buff and I love that. The medical angle.

Ernestine 23:18

Yeah. That's interesting

John 23:20

i'll give you another one. My Maternal grandmother died of peripheral fever. She died, after having a child. And she got infected and died. This is 1930s in Belize. So there's no antibiotics or anything. And my mom was, I think 10 years old and, It was because there's a story about a physician named Sweiss who had suspected that babies that were delivered by midwives, he'd saw a pattern that babies that were delivered by midwives, the moms were not dying but if they were being delivered by physicians, they had a much higher death rate and he figured out that there was something that was being carried because they, back then, more dirty. Your apron was, they didn't wear gloves. That you were the best surgeon. And as it turns out, he figured this out. But then. His message got lost because when he went to the medical societies and started saying, I've discovered this. I think we should start washing our hands, he added this extra part of, if you don't do it, you're murderers. They just, they threw him out. So his story got, it's amazing how he could have saved more people by treading a little bit. More softly

Ernestine 24:24

yeah.

John 24:25

His story was lost because he was so obnoxious about it.

Ernestine 24:29

Ah.

John 24:29

It was a hierarchical system. They never used the smartest person in the room because if they were of lower rank. That's where we do better.

Ernestine 24:37

interesting.

John 24:38

You had to be taken care of by a senator's wife, but they might have been a smarter person in the room that was of lower rank. So there were people who knew things and I shut up, I'd be quiet. You know what I mean? Yeah. Because, not just the British monarchies across the world did that, you had to have a person of lesser rank. Even though they might not be the smartest guy in the room, taking care of you if I count taking care of a Duke or whatever so if the king, there was the king and then there was a duke, but if they couldn't have a Earl or something taking care of them, they had to go, the peck order had to be the correct way, and they focused on that instead of outcomes

Ernestine 25:08

well, that certainly has changed in medicine I've been involved, as you know, in philanthropy for quite a number of years, and philanthropy means different things to different people. And what does philanthropy mean to you?

John 25:21

For me is having a measurable, impact and moving the needle in such a way that it's fundamentally changes a process or has an impact that changes people's lives, but a much more permanent way, where it changes them systemically so that the process is better so that everything that's being kicked out after that is better. So it's, as opposed to something giving, it's teaching a man Fish. Rather than giving him a fish.

Ernestine 25:44

Mm-hmm.

John 25:45

That's the way I think of it.

Ernestine 25:46

Thank you so much for sitting down with me today. Appreciate it.

John 25:49

I'm glad to be here.

Ernestine 25:50

Oh,

John 25:51

I've always been an admirer.

Ernestine 25:52

Thank you Thanks for listening to Bon Vivant Chic Life Well Lived. I hope you'll tune in for more meaningful stories on the human experience and share with family and friends. A special shout out to Will Cooper, out of Nashville, Tennessee for providing this season's music. All the episodes are available wherever you listen to podcasts, including my website. Bonvivantchic.com Till next time. Remember, every day is a gift. Live it with kindness.