EP 2 Winnie Mandela - Warrior, Women Warrior I Women And Resistance 🌍

In this episode, Adesoji Iginla and Aya Fubara Eneli discuss Winnie Mandela's life and legacy, exploring her role in the anti-apartheid struggle, her personal history, and her relationship with Nelson Mandela. 

Aya shared Winnie's experiences of love, struggle, and resilience, highlighting the importance of cultural identity and the collective fight against oppression. 

The conversation delves into the emotional toll of political activism, the impact of systemic injustice, and the enduring spirit of resistance embodied in the cry of 'Amandla.' 

Aya detailed Winnie's struggles with incarceration, banishment, and the psychological warfare employed against her and her husband, Nelson Mandela. 

She went into the complexities of their relationship, the impact of their political struggles on their family, and the ongoing fight for justice and equality in post-apartheid South Africa. 

Takeaways

*Winnie Mandela's legacy is often marginalised.
*Cultural identity plays a crucial role in resistance.
*Winnie's personal history is intertwined with the anti-apartheid movement.
*The emotional toll of political activism is profound.
*Women in history are often erased or distorted.
*The importance of remembering one's roots and history.
*Political freedom does not equate to economic freedom.
*The impact of systemic injustice on families is devastating.
*Psychological warfare was a tactic used against Nelson Mandela and his family.
*Banishment to Branford was a strategic move to silence Nelson.
*Winnie played a crucial role in keeping Mandela's name alive during his imprisonment.
*The conditions of solitary confinement were brutal and isolating.
*Women must recognise their power and agency in the fight for liberation.
*Collective action and empathy are essential for effective resistance.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Winnie Mandela's Legacy
02:54 The Historical Context of Apartheid
06:07 Aya's Personal History and Connection to the Struggle
09:14 Meeting Nelson Mandela: A Love Story
12:00 Marriage and the Reality of Struggle
14:57 The Impact of Nelson's Arrests
18:14 Cultural Identity in the Struggle
21:02 The Power of Amandla: A Call to Action
24:02 Life After Nelson's Sentencing
26:57 Aya's Arrest and the Mental Toll
29:55 The Nature of Torture and Injustice
33:36 Life Behind Bars: The Struggles of Incarceration
36:02 Psychological Warfare: The Impact of Detention
38:13 Banishment and Isolation: The Fight for Freedom
44:12 Post-Apartheid Reflections: The Journey to 1994
46:22 The Complexity of Relationships: Love and Politics
49:14 Controversies and Convictions: The Struggle for Justice
51:12 The Evolution of Nelson Mandela: A Shift in Ideology
55:26 The Aftermath of Apartheid: Rights vs. Reality
56:40 Building Networks: Lessons from the Past
58:45 Empowering Wome

Welcome  to Women and Resistance, a powerful podcast where we honour the courage, resilience, and revolutionary spirit of women across the globe. Hosted by Aya Fubara Eneli Esq and Adesoji Iginla...

You're listening to Women and Resistance with Aya Fubara Eneli Esq and Adesoji Iginla—where we honour the voices of women who have shaped history through courage and defiance...Now, back to the conversation.

That’s it for this episode of Women and Resistance. Thank you for joining us in amplifying the voices of women who challenge injustice and change the course of history. Be sure to subscribe, share, and continue the conversation. Together We Honour the past, act in the present, and shape the future. Until next time, stay inspired and stay in resistance!

Transcript

Adesoji Iginla (00:02.454)
Yes, greetings and welcome back to another episode of Women and Resistance. As usual, I'm your host, Adesuji Igaila, and with me is Sister Aya Fubera Enelie Squire. apologies for the breaking transmission last week. It was due to

The weather, thunderstorm, beyond our capacity. But this week, we've returned and we are going to be looking at the lives and times of Winnie Mandela.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (00:29.403)
Thunderstorm.

Adesoji Iginla (00:51.47)
And so Winnie Mandela, for those who don't know, was born in 1936 in Eastern Cape, South Africa, educated in social work and sociology. But beyond that, most people did not know what her role was during the apartheid struggle. So the question is, can you introduce Winnie Mandela to us?

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (01:22.929)
Absolutely, it would be my pleasure. I'm very grateful for the opportunity to set the record straight. Because one of the things the world is very good at is one either marginalizing and erasing women, black women in particular, or distorting our story so much.

Men are allowed to be multi-dimensional. Men are allowed to be layered on complex people. But a woman is supposed to be one-dimensional. And if she does not fit exactly what we think she is, then she is to be torn apart and discarded and written out of history or made out to be something that she's not. My name is Nomsamo Winifred Zanyiwe Madikazella.

That is what I was born. That's how I was named. My grandmother, Gogo, she made sure that even though her son and my mother had been given these European names, can you imagine that my father was named Columbus? That she wanted to make sure that we knew our history. My grandmother remembered the times

of the struggle when the white men came and not only wanted our land, they also wanted our cattle. They wanted to completely decimate us. And my grandmother was a tall, dark, black African woman who carried herself with such dignity.

And she never forgot our history. She never forgot who we were. And she taught that to me. She told me about the wars that had happened. Wars in which, according to the white man, they killed an estimated 4,000 kosha and stole more than 50,000 herd of cattle. Now understand that cattle was one of the ways that we

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (03:48.997)
kept ourselves. So when you strip a people of their land and of their cattle, are basically, yes, you're basically trying to kill them off. It's a form of genocide. And you know, it's very important when we have these conversations to continue to connect them across the globe, to understand how these same tactics were

Adesoji Iginla (04:13.568)
Hmm

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (04:18.639)
were used elsewhere. So what did these same white devils do in what is now called the United States of America with the Native Americans? They too were systematically stripped of their land but then because they understood the importance of the buffalo to the Native Americans, they killed the buffalo for no reason. In fact if you read their own history books because let me tell you about these people.

They would tell on themselves. They keep the evidence of their own crimes. I don't have to make up anything. And so you will see in their own history books, mounds of the bones of the buffalo slaughtered for no reason other than that they understood that the Native Americans used every part of the buffalo for survival. And they did the same thing to us.

Adesoji Iginla (04:51.938)
Very much so. Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (05:15.675)
Today, they will tell you that I was born in a place called Bizana in South Africa. Don't listen to them. Bizana, we called it Mbizana, an before the B. But these white people, can't twist their tongues to call our names the proper way. So they just make it whatever they want to make it. And then we have continued. You know that place that they call Durban in South Africa?

Can you imagine that we are a free and sovereign nation and we are still having cities and places named after the people who colonized and terrorized us and who never for one day had to face any repercussions for their war crimes and beyond, for their genocide?

I know you asked me simple question, my answers will come out however they come out, including the ridiculousness of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

Adesoji Iginla (06:22.156)
Hmm

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (06:24.473)
It shows the naivete of my people. It shows how, as your people will say today, how we snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. You fought this long, you've sacrificed so much, the ground is saturated with the blood of your people. And then while you're at the cusp of victory, you get scared.

Adesoji Iginla (06:36.426)
from the jaws of victory.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (06:53.295)
and you make all kinds of concessions and you think that political freedom equals economic freedom. It does not. So you know that these people, starting with, have you heard of King Hintza? H-I-N-T-S-A. My grandmother Gogo taught me about King Hintza. This was a man, a king who did not want to fight. He was trying to stay neutral.

even as these settlers, these colonizers were encroaching. He thought he could stay neutral. This is a lesson for those of you who think that when you see injustice happening, that it's okay not to take a position. And they came to him and he says, oh, I don't have anything to do with this, I'm neutral. And they said, well, you have to give us 20,000 heads of cattle. And then you have to tell the other kings,

Adesoji Iginla (07:38.69)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (07:52.171)
that all of this other land now belongs to us. He knew that was an impossibility. They took him with them and he tried to make it run for it and they killed him. He was killed by one of them who had actually been serving as an interpreter, who had learned the language of our people. Don't get confused when they come and wear your clothes and learn your language. It is not for your freedom.

It is for them to better understand how to destroy you. Some of you might be concerned or maybe she sounds angry. You will only make that statement if you don't know the history because there is such a thing as righteous anger. And let me tell you, I have many reasons to be angry. I was born the fourth of eight children. Both my parents were educated.

Adesoji Iginla (08:31.278)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (08:43.917)
in the ways of the white man. They were school teachers. In fact, my father was the principal of the school I went to. He built. My father was called Columbus Maddy Kizela. He was a history teacher and later a minister of the Trans-Sky government. My mother too was educated, but my mother died when I was young, leaving behind my three-month-old brother, and I subsequently left school.

to go and do basically become the mother of my family, taking care of my siblings. But I eventually returned to school, yes.

Adesoji Iginla (09:20.494)
Okay. So what...

Okay, so which brings us to how you enter the world frame? By that, the question is how did you meet Nelson Mandela?

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (09:36.337)
Well, you know, I was incredibly smart. And so when I finished my schooling in my hometown of Ibizana, I was one of the students who was selected to go to the Jan Hoffmeyer School of Social Work in Johannesburg. Only the smartest kids went to that school. In fact, there were students from other parts of Africa that would also come to that school. I was only 17, but I knew I understood.

that I could not limit myself to what was happening in my village with the few opportunities that women had. so I, even though I knew that it was going to be a sacrifice to my family because I had been doing a lot of the work my mother would have done had she lived, I made that decision to go to Johannesburg and to see what I could make of my life.

I ended up earning a bachelor's degree in social work in 1955. But during that time when I moved to Johannesburg, there were a lot of people whispering and talking about this man named Nelson Mandela. He was a boxer, he was a lawyer, was leading some initiatives with the ANC, and so many people revered him. And I would always hear his name.

but I had not yet seen him. And then one day I was with Oliver Tambo and his wife and they introduced me to Nelson Mandela. And the people today will say it was love at first sight. We were very taken with each other. I was dating another young man at the time, but Nelson would definitely caught my eye. He was very impressive. I had actually seen him.

in court at one time. He had not seen me, but this was the time that we both met. And so we met and his life then was pretty busy and he was under attack, under surveillance. And so sometimes our meetings had to be quite clandestine. But one day when he was very attentive, very romantic. Now, Nelson had been previously married.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (12:00.977)
and he had four children with his first wife, Evelyn. But he showered me with a lot of attention, and even when he could not personally be there, he would send a car to pick me up. He would send gifts for me. He made it very clear that I was important to him, and he was very much interested in me. And one day, when he picked me up, he said, I know a dressmaker.

who can make your wedding dress. And that was pretty much how I guess we decided that we would become husband and wife.

Adesoji Iginla (12:37.486)
Okay, so you were married, had two kids in 50 and 59 and 60. The natural progression was when did you know you were married to a struggle?

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (13:00.943)
That happened almost immediately because even for the wedding ceremony, Nelson had to get permission from the government to be able to travel out of Johannesburg to come to my village. And he was only given a few days. So we were not even able to carry out all of the aspects of the traditional wedding. The last part, which is the gift exchange part, we couldn't even do that because he had to be back.

in Johannesburg at a certain time per the permit that they had given them. And at that time, when I introduced him to my father, my father, yes, was happy for me, proud of who I had chosen, but at the same time also cautioned me that in bringing this man and in choosing to marry this man, I was choosing to marry into a life of struggle. Of course, I had no real understanding of what that would end up meaning for me.

So we got married in, we met in 1957. We got married in 1958. I had our first child in 59 and our second child in 1960. And I'm telling you that my children never really knew living with a father. Even during those first couple of years, he was in and out being detained. He was fighting for his life in court. He was acquitted, but

Adesoji Iginla (14:19.981)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (14:31.097)
shortly after that had to go underground. So my children, for all intents and purposes, grew up without that embrace, that presence of a father. But you know what? That was not unique to me as a South African woman, black woman, because for over 100 years, you had black men who were taken from their families.

that were mining the gold and you know South Africa has some of the deepest mines. Sometimes these men might only be allowed to go back home once every year, sometimes twice a year. Their wives a lot of times were not allowed to go and visit them. This caused a lot of problems with families. Sometimes they are working on farms for the white men but again do not have access to their families so they were

more often than not, children growing up without the presence of their fathers in the home.

Adesoji Iginla (15:35.072)
father's home. okay so we fast forward to his first arrest. i mean he had multiple arrests but the first prominent one that came to the world's consciousness when he was arrested for traveling overseas without the permit and that was in august of 1962.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (15:58.469)
Yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (16:03.589)
Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (16:05.976)
There was something that happened in that court that would...

make yourself very important to the struggle which was he was arrested and he was supposed to be arraigned before and magistrate but somehow you snuck in traditional attire for him to wear

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (16:31.995)
Yes. Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (16:35.426)
for him to appear in court. So the description goes that he came into the court and he was wearing a carouse, which was like a skin thrown over his shoulder and beads. And the appearance was quite imposing. What suggests, what made you think that picture? And I hasten to add

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (16:37.478)
Yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (16:47.888)
Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (17:05.6)
you know, bringing culture into it, into the struggle, why was that important for you to impress upon him?

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (17:16.027)
I'm really glad you asked that question. When you first started to ask the question, I was starting to get a little bit annoyed because people tell me they want to interview me and then they want to talk about Nelson. But I'm glad you took the turn that you did with it. When I say this, some people might not appreciate me saying it, but without my efforts, the Nelson Mandela that is known and revered and loved today may have just

Adesoji Iginla (17:30.84)
You

Adesoji Iginla (17:37.826)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (17:45.019)
faded into obscurity. So yes, I was in the streets. I understood the psyche of the white man. And I also understood the need to stir up the pride in our culture and who we are as a people. And so it was important to me that whatever they do to my husband,

that he show up in his whole African-ness, if you will, embracing the culture. He wasn't just a lawyer who could speak their language and all of that, and he did that, and he did that with excellence, but he was a man connected to the soil, connected to the culture, a man of the people. And what better way to make that so clear?

that this struggle was not his alone. This was not just a simple political protest. This was a man of the people. This was a man stating claim that this land is ours and we collectively will fight for it and that whatever is done to him is not to him as an individual but to us as a collective.

We are a collective. There's no I, always a we.

Adesoji Iginla (19:18.764)
Another important aspect of that case, I mean, we're now focusing on you, was the moment the judgment was passed in that case that they were given in the Revona trial, the subsequent trial. And I should also add the only reason why it was captured for the Revona trial was because the CIA tapped his phone and shared his location with

South African authorities. And that is chronicled in a book written by Susan Williams, titled White Malice.

Now, when

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (20:00.507)
Well, they definitely were surveilling him and sharing information, yes.

Adesoji Iginla (20:05.682)
Mm-hmm. Yes. And the reason why they did that was because they wanted a deep sea port in Port Elizabeth in order to bring in and to have a military listening post and military base. But all of that is part and parcel of how Empire works. But more importantly,

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (20:24.677)
Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (20:33.122)
You came out of that courtroom and you screamed, Amandla, to suggest that the battle continues. Yes. And that battle cry you also did at each of the funerals you attended during the Soweto uprising. Why was that important for you to do that and for the people to...

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (20:42.705)
I'll wait till... yes.

Adesoji Iginla (21:02.036)
Embrace that as part of your persona.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (21:05.422)
Because when you are prosecute, persecuted every in every way, every aspect of your life, police, when you have been pushed off your fertile lines, lands and pushed into places where you cannot even eke out a living, when even the, the, the, the, the very language that your children are going to be taught to everything is controlled by someone else. is important, important to remind the people.

that they are not powerless and therefore they should not be popeless. It was important to remind people that regardless of how horrible things seemed and looked and were, no matter how oppressed we were, no matter how many of our men were being killed, our young women misused and our children slaughtered in the streets, we still had the power and people had to remember that you must say the thing.

remind them and also remind your enemies that you will never give up you will never submit you will never acquiesce so the fight is on yes

Adesoji Iginla (22:20.75)
Okay, so on June 12, 1964 at 12.15 pm exactly, your husband was sentenced to life imprisonment and he will subsequently spend the better part of 27 odd years on Robbin Island. How was it as a young wife to have a sentence like that passed on her husband and for you to have to share that with your kids?

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (22:53.137)
you

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (22:57.551)
Of course, you know that was the second major trial that Nelson had been a part of.

Most of our, the few years that we did spend together, he was underground. I never knew where I would see him. There were times when he would send a car and then we would move from one car to another, to another, just trying to make sure that I wasn't followed. I could change cars 10 times just to see him for a few hours. When I was five months pregnant with our first child, I was detained.

Of course it was to become a pattern in my life of being detained, being banned, of being imprisoned, of being assaulted. So we knew that it was a possibility, even though we held out hope.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (23:54.979)
but nothing prepared me for that sentence.

I can't begin to explain.

the fear and the sorrow that gripped me. Already we were in financial straits because when Nelson had to go underground and Oliver Tambo was exiled, that effectively closed their law firm. They had a law firm together and so there was no resources coming from there. And

Although I was the first black social worker in the entire country, I could not get a job. Everywhere I went, and they knew my name, knew who I was married to, it didn't matter my qualifications. So, it was, there were a lot of emotions. I was scared for my husband and a life sentence.

A life sentence.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (25:10.755)
I was terrified as a young mother with two young children.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (25:19.537)
in 64 when he was sentenced. My children were who were born in 59 and 60 were five and four years old.

I didn't know what they would do to me. I knew what they had already done. So it was a terrifying time, but at the same time.

We understood that all of South Africa was a prison for Black people. You could be inside the walls of a prison or you could be outside and imprisoned. Similarly to the Palestinians in Gaza today. And similarly to many of my brothers and sisters in the so-called inner cities in the United States of America. Over policed, no resources.

I knew that I had to be strong for my children. I did not know I have to tell you how I would do it. But I knew that I had to fight. And that's what I did.

Adesoji Iginla (26:28.308)
Which brings me to when you yourself were eventually arrested and that happened on the wee hours of the 12th of May 1969 when the police came into your home in the early hours of that day and arrested you with only yourself and an eight-year-old and a ten-year-old in the

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (26:34.129)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (26:57.73)
You were taken? No one was put in charge of the kids? What sort of mental torture was that for you?

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (27:10.001)
When you ask me that question, I want, because we never truly address this issue, I want to talk about...

the barbaric nature of these people. Before they came to my house, was between 2.30 and 3 a.m. For months and months, in the middle of the night, you hear knock on the door, you hear knock on the window, they were terrorizing us. They are the ultimate terrorists. See, the thing that they are is what they accuse other people of being.

Adesoji Iginla (27:49.838)
Projection.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (27:51.267)
So unfortunately, to the extent that one can get used to it, we had gotten used to this terror. Just loud knocks on the door in the middle of the night. But this night was different. Imagine a mother with her two young children.

And when they came, I always had a suitcase packed, a bag of clothes, because my children were so young that I knew that if I get arrested, detained, I cannot now ask my children to pack clothes. They were too young. So I always had a bag because there was always the possibility that I would be arrested. They did it to so many of us. We lived in the state of terror.

Adesoji Iginla (28:39.63)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (28:40.337)
And so I grabbed my bag and I asked, you know, I'm trying to arrange for my children with someone that they did not care. And of course you have to ask yourself, why do they do these things in the middle of the night? Today, with the government in the United States of America, I see these people, they call them ICE and they're wearing ski masks. Why?

If you're doing the right thing under the law, are you either undercover in the night or in the daytime you're covering your face? I'm telling you this because I want you, my children, to see the patterns.

If you understand the patterns, you can figure out how you're going to fight and face your enemy in a way that will assure victory that we did not quite get. Even with the overthrow of so-called apartheid, which I believe we really did not. So the fear of a mother. What will happen to my daughters? Will they kill them? Will they rape them? Will they

Adesoji Iginla (29:39.98)
Hmm

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (29:55.845)
disappear them. You know how many South African, Black South Africans would just disappear. Which is similar again to what your ICE people are doing. People just disappearing. You see the patterns? Are you seeing the patterns? So I was very scared, but you know what? Since she was my oldest daughter, she was so smart. She remembered the name of my sister-in-law. And when they broke

Adesoji Iginla (30:06.478)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (30:10.817)
Very much so.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (30:24.805)
she was able to tell people who that was. But I did not find out for a whole month that my children were with my sister-in-law. Imagine the mental and psychological anguish. These people would not give me any word about my children while they kept me up.

Every day and night they did not let me sleep for five full days torturing me.

Adesoji Iginla (31:06.792)
So you mentioned torture. There was a series of letters that was going back and forth between a lawyer named Jay Carson and Nelson Mandela. But in those letters, there was one line that kept being repeated over and over again. And I'll read this line to you. And you can tell us why that line.

is often included. I have my thoughts but I want to hear what it said. Security police has also allowed Mrs Mandela to receive a change of clothing. It's now repeated once, not twice, but three times in three separate letters.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (31:53.935)
What do you think that is? What do you make of it?

Adesoji Iginla (31:58.446)
I'm thinking is that supposed to be some sort of privilege or an entitlement or a right?

Adesoji Iginla (32:13.034)
I'm sure that you even think what it was but just reading your notes and seeing that they're on a recurrent basis.

That jumped out at me as like, why is this important to make your husband be aware that you have a change of.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (32:41.359)
Not everything will be exposed in certain places.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (32:53.873)
You know when they arrested me? They had these prison matrons. White women. Some heartless people.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (33:10.457)
and they stripped me naked outside of myself.

and they searched my naked body.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (33:26.735)
and then they threw my clothes on the ground in the cell.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (33:36.388)
and put me in the cell.

And I asked, what am I supposed to wear? Look at these clothes. You've stepped on them. They're dirty. what is it?

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (33:50.805)
in sharing that with my husband Nelson. It was very difficult for him as a proud man who wanted to protect his white grandchildren to be behind bars.

to not have access to newspapers. Initially, they only allowed him one 30-minute visit a year.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (34:23.599)
He wanted somehow.

to know that we were okay.

and I would sometimes send those kind of messages to let him know we were holding up because I also knew that we needed to keep

his spirits up with whatever he was dealing with where he was as well.

But I have to say this for the record.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (35:03.631)
You know, and Nelson wrote about this too. When you're locked up in jail at Robbins Island initially like he was, yes, it was a lot of hard work that they hard labor that they put them to do. The food was, of course, horrible. You're sleeping on the ground with mats and so on. But what you did not have was the terror that many of us who were on the outside

experienced on a daily basis.

of knowing you can be killed at any time, snatched up, and you know, caught in a hail of bullets at any time. There was a distinction. But anyway, I did my best to keep my husband somewhat uplifted in the sense of we are doing as well as we can under the circumstances.

Adesoji Iginla (36:01.326)
And the reason I pose the question is, and I wrote in my notes that I can't help but notice her arrest and constant harassment was meant to break him, referring to Nelson Mandela. And you get, you.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (36:18.477)
Yes, it's all psychological warfare. Do you know that between

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (36:28.632)
1959 and 1980 that I was detained over 16 times I lost track of it.

not to mention my banishment. Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (36:43.328)
I'm actually coming to that. is an interesting piece with regards to the banishment. When you were banished to Branford and initially...

as your notes shows was that no one paid you heed. But the moment the foreign media came to Branford, even the people of Branford who themselves were avowed racist screamed that they wanted you out of there because you were exposing the world to what they were like. So sometimes

Even your act of resistance, of being there, of being banished to a place where you'd rather not be, was actually helping the cause. Because what that meant was the likes of New York Times, AFP, Reuters, Times of London, BBC came there and interviewed an

the constant stream of them coming back and forth, unsettled the local population that they even proposed they were going to take you and toss you out in the middle of the night. What was it like?

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (38:13.393)
Well, you have to understand that before Branford, I was detained in 1969 for 491 days in solitary confinement without a trial under the Terrorism Act. I think that the United States of America, their government has been taking notes from the apartheid government in South Africa. Terrorism Act.

Adesoji Iginla (38:16.846)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (38:40.345)
At that time, was the longest time a woman had been held in solitary confinement. I wrote a book. It's called 491 Days. And the foreword is by a friend of us, Ahmed Kathrada, who was also imprisoned with my husband, Nelson.

491 days confinement, solitary confinement. And for the first five months, I had no communication with anybody except my terrorizers.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (39:20.209)
Five months, no communication with the outside world, no communication with my children, no communication. I had no information on what was going on. 491 days without trial. So by the time in 1977, when I was forcibly relocated to Bramford, which was a remote town in the Orange Free State State,

where they banished me for almost nine years.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (39:57.049)
They had to keep raising the bar in terms of what they could do to me to break me and what they could do to me to break Nelson. Because now they had already imprisoned him. So their leverage was now his family. We were able to get our children over to Swaziland. And so here I'm now my children not being parented by their father.

all by their mother. Now by the time I was banished to Branford, my younger daughter came and stayed with me. Zinzi stayed with me from time to time in Branford. But in Branford, how they set it up is I could not talk to more than one person, being the company of more than one other person, except for my family. So they wanted to keep me isolated. They put me in this

little two bedroom, not even two room, not two bedroom, two room home, very rudimentary facilities, very sparsely furnished. And it was, I think they thought they were going to break my spirit because in taking me away from Soweto, they felt that I would now languish and that the people would eventually forget me.

Adesoji Iginla (41:17.23)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (41:23.074)
forget you.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (41:24.451)
And if they forget me, they forget Nelson because you have to understand I was the one on the outside constantly keeping Nelson Mandela's name in the news, talking to the foreign press, getting even musicians to sing songs with his name. I kept that name alive. And so in their minds, we get her out of Soweto. She's not, you know, been influencing the ANC.

or any of the youth or anybody else, we isolate her here and nobody knows where she is and we silence her. We kill her through that silence. And at the same time that diminishes who Nelson Mandela is. And as you rightly pointed out, it completely backfired on them. In fact, it was during that time that one of the journalists who came to interview me was able to take some notes.

Adesoji Iginla (42:20.29)
notes yeah

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (42:20.369)
from our interviews and she was able to smuggle the book the notes out and That is how this book part of my soul went with him was published and I don't know if you can see this picture but this was a picture of me in 1977 in Brantford And this is a picture of me and my daughter

Adesoji Iginla (42:36.791)
Mmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (42:49.849)
as a 16 year old at the time, because she went with me to, to Bradford. And if you can see the picture down here, these are the homes that we lived in. What does that remind you of those of you who live in the United States of America? Have you seen these kind of, of little, it's like the sharecropper homes? Yes. Yes. Yes. But you know what? I was a social worker and I was a woman of the people. And even in Bradford, what I decided to do was to

Adesoji Iginla (43:00.818)
the root

Adesoji Iginla (43:06.318)
sharecroppers, yeah yeah yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (43:19.279)
Remind the people of their power and one of the things I did was I started a nursery school for the black kids Here's a picture in this book of the nursery school. You see those kids sitting on the ground. That was the nursery school And so I did what I could To to help to help the people even there. Yes

Adesoji Iginla (43:40.782)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (43:44.344)
So.

You've underscored one point there. So regardless of your circumstances, you're still reaching out to the people. You're sharing whatever it is you have with them. Which brings me to this. What then happened after 1994 when apartheid?

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (44:12.433)
Well, I can jump to 1994, but because there are people who ask, but there are some other rumors, there was a trial, there's some other things that, did you skip over those things? There's so much to cover, there's very little time to cover it. You know, like I said, when I was in Bradford, I helped build clinics, schools, a community center.

Adesoji Iginla (44:33.291)
Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (44:42.957)
Initially, my banishment was for four years. They came back. They extended it again for no reason, except that they are fearful. They are very afraid of us. That is why they have to do everything to oppress us and to silence us. And I got to a point where after the second banishment, I said, no, I'm going back to Soweto.

Adesoji Iginla (44:58.627)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (45:11.857)
and you do whatever you want to and they were all these, cars following me and things like that. Of course, we know that there was a Soweto uprising in 1976 and there was a formation of the Mandela United Football Club, which was both like a security force and a youth mobilization group. In 1993, I was elected as the president of the ANC Women's League.

My commitment has always been to the people and the ANC at that time was fighting for the people. And with you fast forward to 1994, at that point I did become a member of parliament. I was in parliament until 2003. And again, I was in parliament from 2009 to 2013.

Adesoji Iginla (46:06.936)
So, I mean, it's part and parcel of your story. So what happened prior to the divorce between you and Nelson Mandela?

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (46:22.893)
Anyone who has been married under the best of circumstances there it's it's There there's work to be done right and So you can imagine a couple who never really had a chance To really build together. We had hopes and dreams, but they were snatched very early in our marriage and Now he is under the attacks that I'm that he was under I'm under the

the constant harassment that I'm under. Our children are displaced. He was very concerned about, know, Zinzi, she had had some, you know, children out of wedlock. He was very concerned about that. So, and, you know, if the rules had been reversed and I had been sent to jail for life, nobody, and I say it again, nobody will expect Nelson.

to be celibate and to never have any intimate relations with a woman again in his life because his wife was in jail. But again, women, are certain expectations of us. so, yes, did I seek some comfort? Yes, I did. Was I under terrible harassment? You know, the...

Adesoji Iginla (47:31.566)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (47:49.125)
these white colonizers, these devils, one of the things they would do is they will infiltrate our communities. They had informers and spies everywhere. You didn't know who to trust. Everything you you know you were surveilled and it keeps you in this heightened state of, you know, what next is going to happen. And yes, as a human being, I sought some comfort and I surrounded myself with people that I hoped.

cared about me and I brought in kids who were really street kids and no one was taking care of them and they found comfort and a place to eat and sleep in my home. But of course, there were also actions that took place that were not necessarily of my doing or that I invited people to do. All at the time, people want to forget this, but there were conversations about

how we had to deal with the informers within us who looked like us. It wasn't just me, even though I was the one tagged with, oh, she is endorsing necklacing. Many other leaders understood that something had to be done to deter these informers who were making it impossible for us to fight for our liberation. And so I was...

Adesoji Iginla (48:51.022)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (49:14.833)
at one point linked to the kidnapping and murder of a young boy, Stompe Sype, who had a very interesting life. He had, you know, been on the streets and had gotten into some trouble, but then became an activist. But it's not clear even to me today whose side always he was on. But I did not order the beating or the killing of that young boy. How could I as a mother

I am known as the mother of South Africa. How could I then do that? But in 1991, I was convicted of kidnapping and being an accessory to assault. We did, I was sentenced to six years. I did appeal that. And with additional information that was now found out, my sentence was reduced to a fine and a suspended sentence.

But of course, at that point, I had been all over the papers and all over the world. And suddenly I, who had been victimized for at this point, 40 years plus of my life, was now considered the one victimizing. At no point did anyone care about what I had experienced, what I had endured.

and was still enduring, which is why I thank you for the opportunity to share this story and to put myself back in the truth of the life that I lived, the sacrifices I made, my children made, and the legacy of power to the people that I left, the influence I had in helping to bring down the apartheid state and

for Nelson Mandela to step in to the role of president as he did. Now, given some of these issues that we had, and the fact that, I will say it here and I will say it loud, I feel like over the years, there had also been a psychological warfare that was done on Nelson, even the books that he was reading that had reoriented him. And,

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (51:41.281)
There's a book that recently came out, Nelson and Winnie, that talks a lot more about the kind of books, the colonizers, those who imprisoned him, chose what books they gave him to read. He was reading Winston Churchill and did the focusing on wanting to be a statesman. And I think with age, with what he experienced, with how they had isolated him and basically started a brainwashing program.

Adesoji Iginla (51:53.134)
Yeah, Touch you.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (52:11.269)
that by the time Nelson came out, he and I did not quite see eye to eye politically.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (52:21.047)
And perhaps he was expecting to have the return of the wife of his youth. But I was not that same woman as he was not the same man he was when he went in. And all of those issues and my conviction, all of those things contributed to the divorce. He needed to cut himself off from the baggage that I had become.

so that he could become this saintly Madiba, this very docile, smiling old man that they had now created him to be, as opposed to the fighter that I knew in our youth. And so he did what he needed to do. And I'm at peace with that.

Adesoji Iginla (53:13.07)
Okay, so with that, we accept, or at least the picture you create in our mind was Nelson Mandela was a prisoner just not of the mind, but also a prisoner of time. Because once he was captured in 64, and subsequently given that life sentence, his life was in a perpetual hold. And he was trying to recapture that but

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (53:29.041)
you

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (53:39.888)
Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (53:42.55)
Obviously they've reframed another kind of lifestyle for him, one where he will call Queen Elizabeth by her first name, think. That is some sort of flex. But I digress.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (53:54.857)
One where he would accept the Nobel Peace Prize with the clerk. One where he and Desmond Tutu were so focused on not upsetting white people that with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, people could just come

Adesoji Iginla (54:05.752)
Fredrik the clock.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (54:25.069)
say a few things and get amnesty but not even have to admit to the full scope of the atrocities. we're having a truth and reconciliation commission hearings. Mine, just the one on me was nine days. But you had numerous others where it was just a few hours and these were the actual

Adesoji Iginla (54:47.405)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (54:54.555)
perpetrators of the wholesale violence against a whole group of people, starting with the Land Act. The Land Act that determined that Black South Africans only would have what, 7.5 % of our land and 90 % was for white people. There was no, how do you reconcile under those circumstances? Where is the justice?

Adesoji Iginla (55:11.157)
sense.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (55:26.499)
And so today you see in South Africa where our freedom movement was kind of truncated because anytime you have a community and the vast majority of the youth are unemployed, it is a powder keg. It is a powder keg. And so we have the right to vote, but not the right to eat. We have the right to vote, but not the right to the land.

Adesoji Iginla (55:43.202)
Hmm

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (55:55.675)
to take care of ourselves. What is the use of the right to vote then?

Adesoji Iginla (56:04.952)
There is something to be said for the underground networks you created with Albertina Sisulu, the wife of Walter Sisulu.

And with that, saying in our modern day, in terms of in light of what is happening in the United States, how can similar type networks be created? Or do you have some sort of idea of how to go about it?

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (56:40.027)
Well, the first thing I will say is I'm not going to say it here. Yes. Yes. Yes. So I will say this. It is important to make these connections. It's important to know when to say the things that you want to say and in what company. And that is how these informants created so many issues for us.

Adesoji Iginla (56:44.171)
you

Adesoji Iginla (56:48.578)
Well, that's the keyword on the ground network. Yes, that's the keyword.

If you know, know. yes, yes. Secret seat.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (57:10.073)
similarly to all the quote-unquote revolts by enslaved people that were truncated or you know prevented before they could even happen because of the format so What I would say to those who are interested go and read the books or study Talk to some of your elders who have been in the struggle of Mike They will explain to you some of the things that were done and that have to be done again

Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (57:41.762)
So one final point, just to bring it all home.

We've done a series of women and what we've noticed in all of them is the element of resistance has been a collective activity, usually spearheaded by one person, but it's largely been driven by collective effort. So how do you see

Adesoji Iginla (58:16.246)
movements going forward. I know you're going to tell us that obviously you studied books and what have you but in a nutshell especially in terms of women, women constitute a majority of the world population and they are often the most subjugated. How do we go about empowering women as it were?

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (58:45.009)
My son, is such a... That's such a simple and yet complex question all at the same time. You know the bondage starts in the mind.

There are things people on the outside can do to oppress you and keep you subjugated. But they don't win until you buy into what they are saying you are, who they are saying you are. And I look at my young sisters and daughters and the yoke of patriarchy is heavy around our necks.

Adesoji Iginla (59:12.813)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (59:27.331)
I spoke about this as well in previous years, whether it was in our traditions, there was the patriarchy that subjugated women. And even now on the, so-called independence, there are still so many barriers to women truly being empowered. And I say that the first step in terms of any movement is

for each woman to make it up in her mind that she wants to be free. And that is a very difficult thing sometimes when you talk about if you're in a marriage and the marriage is not working for you, if you are a single mother, you know, how do you cultivate your own freedom while you have children that you have to take care of and you have to do whatever you need to do to be able to put food on the table.

But we really have to start in our minds to know that we're not trying to be like anybody else. You know, this whole idea of I want what the white people have, no. They're not the standard. It is I want to be free and what does that look like and mean for me? And then once you have determined in your heart, then it's starting to look around and see who can you connect with?

Adesoji Iginla (01:00:43.159)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (01:00:53.881)
And you're not going to connect with everybody. But who can you connect with? How do you sharpen your mind? How do you sharpen your body? How do you sharpen your spiritual self to be able to operate in that freedom? So for some of you, it's making sure you have skill sets that will allow you to stand on your own two feet. And then it is

not only being concerned about what impacts you, but understanding that what impacts another will ultimately impact you at some point. so caring enough about the issues that impact other people. Because when you show empathy for people, when you come alongside people and help them in their hard times, then they are more likely to now have that connection with you.

that when something happens on your end and you say, come, let's go, they will listen to you. So if you want to be an influencer, if you want to be a leader who is not just taking a walk in the park and nobody's following you, but you actually have followers, the way to do that is to first serve people. Be of service to people. Make yourself useful to people. Make them, help them to see.

Adesoji Iginla (01:02:03.224)
Thank

Adesoji Iginla (01:02:13.13)
Hmm

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (01:02:21.271)
what their issues are and the real direct connection of their issues to white supremacy so that we don't get so caught up in fighting ourselves that we weaken ourselves and are now unable to fight the thing that is really imposing all of these things on us. As I have said before, I am the product of the masses of my country.

Adesoji Iginla (01:02:38.667)
the anime.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (01:02:50.861)
Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on which lens you look through, I am also the product of my enemy. And so as you think of the movement, you have to think of who are you, who are you in connection to your own people? Who are you and how are you seen by the enemy so that it can inform

how you create and sustain the movement. Sustain the movement because this struggle of ours, it is not a sprint. It is a marathon that will have to be passed down from generation to generation just like these demons have passed down their desire to oppress.

Adesoji Iginla (01:03:34.232)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (01:03:48.899)
from generation to generation.

Adesoji Iginla (01:03:53.23)
So with that said, I would say we've come to the end of another episode of Women and Resistance. And this week we've been talking to Winnie Mandela.

And but next week, the conversation continues, but this time it's to be with about Gwendolyn Brooks.

So I would leave the what's going to happen next week. I'll leave you up in the air, but we're talking about Gwendolyn Brooks next week. And

We still have, well, we still have Mrs. Mandela here. What would you like to say as your parting shot?

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (01:04:49.841)
I'm hearing the words of my grandmother, Google. Never forget who you are. Never forget what your struggles have been. Never forget what your strengths are. Never stop fighting. I lived a long life. I died on April 2nd, 2018. I was 81 years old. But until my dying day, even in my weakened state, I will say to you what I would always say. Amandla!

I'll wait. Thank you.

Adesoji Iginla (01:05:22.898)
And you're welcome. And I will leave you with the words of Tomo Sankara, women are the mothers of revolution. And we have been talking about women. And until next week, stay blessed and stay ready. Good night for now. Good night.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (01:05:41.681)
Good night.