EP 5 Queen Idia - Matriarch Of Might I Women And Resistance

In this conversation, Aya Fubara Eneli. Esq and Adesoji Iginla delve into the life and legacy of Queen Idia of Benin, exploring her significance in African history, the cultural heritage of the Benin Kingdom, and the role of women in leadership. 

They discuss the impact of colonialism on African artefacts and the importance of repatriation. 

The conversation emphasises the need for empowerment, spiritual connection, and the reclamation of cultural identity.

Takeaways

*Queen Idia was a significant figure in the Benin Kingdom, known for her leadership and influence.
*Cultural heritage and spirituality play a crucial role in understanding one's identity.
*Women have historically held essential roles in leadership and decision-making.
*The impact of colonialism has led to the loss of cultural artefacts and identity.
*Repatriation of stolen artefacts is essential for cultural reclamation.
*Empowerment of women is vital for community growth and development.
*Spiritual connection and communion with ancestors are essential for guidance.
*Education and knowledge are key to understanding history and culture.
*Unity among people is necessary for progress and healing.
*The legacy of Queen Idia continues to inspire women today.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Queen Idia of Benin
01:32 Cultural Heritage and Spirituality
08:15 The Role of Women in Leadership
13:02 War and Succession in the Kingdom
18:56 Colonialism and Its Impact
25:55 Art, Legacy, and Repatriation
34:20 Empowerment and Spiritual Connection
44:58 The Fight for Cultural Reclamation

Welcome  to Women and Resistance, a powerful podcast where we honour the courage, resilience, and revolutionary spirit of women across the globe. Hosted by Aya Fubara Eneli Esq and Adesoji Iginla...

You're listening to Women and Resistance with Aya Fubara Eneli Esq and Adesoji Iginla—where we honour the voices of women who have shaped history through courage and defiance...Now, back to the conversation.

That’s it for this episode of Women and Resistance. Thank you for joining us in amplifying the voices of women who challenge injustice and change the course of history. Be sure to subscribe, share, and continue the conversation. Together We Honour the past, act in the present, and shape the future. Until next time, stay inspired and stay in resistance!

Transcript

Adesoji Iginla (00:10.272)
Yes, greetings, greetings. Welcome to another episode of Women and Resistance. And I am one of your hosts, Ade Soji Iginla. And with me as usual is, before she goes into character, Aya Fubara, NLA Squire.

Are you my sister?

Aya Fubara Eneli (00:31.522)
You know what? I am good. I am, yes, very good.

Adesoji Iginla (00:39.029)
Yes,

Tonight, as usual, we'll be looking at the lives and time of a spectacular woman by all accounts and none other than Queen Idia of Benin. So I suppose for those who probably first come in contact with who she is, could you just give us a brief introduction of an overview of her life and significance to

Afrocentric women's stories.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:18.862)
I don't think we had that term when I was living.

Adesoji Iginla (01:25.44)
Yeah, you might not have it, but you're talking to a more seasoned, well, even that word is problematic, a more eclectic audience.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:44.716)
Yes, well.

Thank you, my son, for this great honor to be with you and with all of your viewers. They can see us. You know, what you people are doing nowadays, we had our ways before without.

Adesoji Iginla (02:04.018)
You see us far and beyond.

Aya Fubara Eneli (02:15.368)
your form of technology. We had a different form of technology. I was born in the late 15th century and my father was a warrior and my mother again the words are different from my language but I guess to make it understandable to those of you watching would have been considered like a medicine woman. But you know

People as a whole understood their relationship with the environment, with nature. But then there were some people who had additional skills. So you might be, you know, everybody could hunt, but you would have the master hunters. Everybody could drum.

but you would have the traumas and when you need to send messages, they're very specific people. And my mother was one of those, again, for lack of a better term at this time, medicine women, and she came from a long line of women, mothers, grandmothers, who understood the power in our herbs, the power in our medicine, the power.

in connecting with our ancestors. And so this is the environment in which I grew up. And let me tell you as a child, my goodness, when we would have our festivals and the drums and the music and the food, I loved to dance.

I love to death. The drums are just, it feels like they would just take over me and the drums can talk to you and I'm tempted to get up now and even show some of my skills. But you could, you could actually use your body and talk back to the drummer.

Aya Fubara Eneli (04:21.61)
as they are beating your moving specific muscles and parts of your body. It's a thing to behold. And I loved to dance. And I became one of the most amazing dancers in our area. your people might need to know, when we talk about, because we're talking about the Kingdom of Vinay, do they know where that is? Do you want to explain that to them?

Adesoji Iginla (04:49.246)
Okay, yes, to give people a sense of Benin. Benin would be the heart of Nigeria, technically actually the heart of Nigeria. It's found in Midwestern Nigeria. It used to be part of what was then known as, know, prior to colonial era, Midwestern Nigeria, post-colonial era.

was first part of Bendel State, eventually became Edo State. But the kingdom itself was one of the most powerful kingdoms in the Nigerian, what will now become known as the Nigerian territory.

Aya Fubara Eneli (05:33.966)
So important for people to be able to locate this. And if you're watching, it's a good thing to go get a map so that you understand the location, you understand where, yes, yes, yes. So we were a great people, a great people. And...

Adesoji Iginla (05:47.06)
and the historical...

Aya Fubara Eneli (06:00.406)
I was, again, in your language, I think I'll be considered a precocious child. I used to dream dreams and I would see things. And as a child, I didn't always understand them. But there were some dreams that I knew I needed to just kind of keep to myself to like get a better understanding. I know in your Bible,

There's a story about, what did you people call that woman? Mary. And it says when the angel came and visited her and told her some things, I think the way your Bible says is that she, she, she, she pondered them in her heart. So she didn't just go and open her mouth and talk all over the place. Some of you, I know this is not what you asked me, but I'm going to teach.

Adesoji Iginla (06:49.391)
huh, yep.

Aya Fubara Eneli (06:59.832)
from my heart. Some of you, God gives you something, your ancestors give you something. Hey, you have just scattered the thing everywhere. You have just told everybody. It's like, let me tell you, okay, it's like a farmer has seeds.

The way seeds grow, you don't just go to the farm and just throw it on top of the earth. If you do that, the birds are going to come and eat it. Nothing will germinate or very few. What you must do, even if it's a small shallow hole, you still have to bury that seed and give it time. It's not just you put it to date tomorrow. Some of you God has given you dreams.

Ancestors have given you dreams and you the reason you have not seen it come to fruition is how you treated it. So as a child I had this dream. I had this dream of being a warrior didn't make any sense. mean woman now we know that in a kingdom not too far from us the homey we know that they had women who were warriors. We didn't call them women. They were warriors. We know

If you go further to the north from where I was, you might one day learn about Queen Amina of Zaria. So it's not like women didn't fight. It's not like we didn't engage in things, but in terms of really having a woman who went to war. And that time too, war was not as common as it is now either. But I had this dream. And I just kept it in my heart. I just covered it and held onto it.

Adesoji Iginla (08:36.288)
Of course.

Aya Fubara Eneli (08:46.846)
But because of what I saw in that dream, made me move in certain ways. I love to dance. And at all these festivals, come and see me with my age mates. I was leading the dancers and my father noticed what a good dancer I was and he would encourage me. And so I said to my father, said,

because my father was a great warrior, said, but can you teach me how to be a warrior? And he said, no, you're going to grow up, you're going to marry, you're going to have children, that's not for you. But I bought that, my father bought it because of this dream I had. And so my father started to show me some little techniques here and there. At the same time, I went to my mother and my grandmother, as I said.

I want to know how do you, you see, you look at a woman's stomach, you touch it somehow and you know, is it girl, is it boy? You know if there are problems. Do you know back then we used to have people when you break your bone, not this one you people do now. When you break your bone, they will use herbs and everything. They have set the bone. When the white people came, they call them bones set as

But then they say, oh, evil this, evil that. Across the continent now, I don't even know whether we still have those evil. But I'm telling you the technology we had. Your technology, oh, something so new. No, no, no, no. We had one where anybody could access it. You didn't even have to go and buy all the things that we are buying now. OK. So they would use those herbs and set your work. So I'm watching my mothers. I'm watching my grandmothers. I'm watching some of these women.

Adesoji Iginla (10:23.308)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (10:45.356)
And I said, I want to learn. I want to understand. want to know. And at this time, my age meets were just playing, you know, doing their chores, just playing. But I wanted to know. I sat with the elders. So my mother said, if you do your chores, if you do what is expected of you, then you can come. We have a saying that if a child washes their hand well, they will eat. Yes, that's what I did as a child.

Adesoji Iginla (11:09.066)
Well, yeah, well, it's with the elders.

Aya Fubara Eneli (11:15.466)
So for you with your dreams, are you washing your hand well? Or are you coming with dirty hands, mouth, everything dirty and you say, hey, give me, I want to be this, I want to know this, I want to be in this position. Have you done your part? So I would do my chores. I will wake up in the morning, I will fetch my water, will do my chores very well with excellence. Because you know, how you do one thing is how you do all the other things in your life.

And my parents were watching and they saw the zeal in me and they taught me. So many years passed. I was now an adolescent woman, you know, coming into my womanhood and we had another festival and I went, the way I can hear the drums in my ear right now. The way the drums, do you know there's a spirit to things? Everything has a spirit. I'm telling you.

If you sit down, watch water long enough, you will understand the spirit of that particular body of water. If you're talking about a tree, plant, you sit down, you will understand the spirit. The drums have spirit. And so this spirit, and I would dance. And this particular festival. Who was watching as we were dancing? It was the oba.

So now the Abba now sent people to my parents and was expressing interest. I really, I mean, I knew that women were supposed to marry, but at that time that wasn't really what was on my heart. And I was still thinking of my dream. So finally I did talk to my father and I said, Papa, but this is

what is in my heart and my father, he advised me, he said, I'm ready. He said, go to your husband's house. Take him as your husband, go to your husband's house. You take everything with you. You don't stop dancing. You don't stop what you know about healing and medicine. And you don't stop what I've taught you about being a warrior.

Aya Fubara Eneli (13:38.594)
And you know, because I had been sitting, paying attention to my father and to all the warriors, when the men will come and gather and drink and I will always volunteer to go and serve them. Because then I will be within earshot and I could be hearing, understanding their strategy. And so it was about the late 1490s. That is when I married the Oba.

Adesoji Iginla (13:59.148)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (14:08.126)
Oba Ozoluwa. He was a good man, many wives though, and he had already had a child, a son with another of his wives. But when he married me in 1504, I had my son who was a Sigye.

So when you talk about succession in a kingdom, nobody can live forever. My husband, husband knew that. Succession is not always, you are the first child. There are places that do it that way, like you're the first son. Sometimes it's also that they look at the child, they look at the would-be king, the prince, and they look at what are all the skills that this king has.

What is the person that the would be king? the prince, what is the personality? What do they have? do they do they? Yes. Yes. Will they be able to really lead? And I'm telling you, I took being a mother very seriously, very seriously. I trained my son in everything that I knew that was appropriate.

Adesoji Iginla (15:12.076)
and diplomatic skills.

Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (15:30.936)
but I also put him and his father too, put him under people that he could learn from. Are you listening to me? So those of you who are having children now, what are you doing with your children? What is your plan for your children?

Adesoji Iginla (15:39.904)
Very much so.

Aya Fubara Eneli (15:48.662)
And even if you don't have children that came from your own loins, how are you assisting other children that you can see have a particular, yes, that's the word, the potential. So my son very well trained. As a reveal, my husband, the other, passed away.

Adesoji Iginla (16:00.972)
potential.

Aya Fubara Eneli (16:18.292)
And in the midst of all the festivities, all the rituals to bury Anoba, of which there are many, of course now the undercurrent was who is going to replace him? Who is going to be the next king? So the child of my husband's wife. You people, now you call it step son, what did you?

Adesoji Iginla (16:47.628)
Steps on.

Aya Fubara Eneli (16:48.598)
don't even understand the people's English, the language. Like they climb the step or, I try to understand, you say half, you say quarter, you say step. It was the child of my husband's wife. We're all family. But you know this thing about power. It moves people in different ways. I understand, I understand that his mother,

Adesoji Iginla (17:13.324)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (17:18.392)
would want her son to be the other. Understand that he would want to be the other. But you don't always just get what you want, especially if you have not taken the time to train for it. So my son, there was no easy diplomatic solution. We were in Benin city proper. We were, we were.

where the palace was. That's where me and my son lived. That's where he grew up. We had certain connections. And so he was ruling in that area. But then his brother was in a different area and he was ruling in that area. But that is division.

Adesoji Iginla (18:04.908)
Sure.

Aya Fubara Eneli (18:05.39)
These divisions don't help us. Today people are still divided. Even now they say, oh, Benin, Benin kingdom, and Bendel state, River state, how many those states is so confusing. We are one people. So we needed to figure out how we going to, division is not good. And of course, you know, at this time the Portuguese had already been there. They had already been trading. Let me tell you something.

This slavery thing that we're talking about now, it's not how it started though. When those red faced people came, as soon as sun shine on them, it is like red like tomato. We will be looking at them like what is happening as their face is just changing color in the middle of us having conversation. We are just observed. But you know, when they first came, they came humble.

Adesoji Iginla (18:42.282)
to.

Aya Fubara Eneli (19:04.674)
They came and they treated us as equals. We treated them as equals. We were all human beings. They had some things we wanted. We had some things they They wanted our ivory. they wanted our ivory. But then they also introduced some things, coppers and things like that, my people now, my goodness, have you seen what my people did with bronze?

Do you understand the science? How we mix things together and what we created? So much so that these people, I'm running around in the story, but do know these people took our things and this even till today they have it in their own places whether they call it a museum. Can you imagine the kind of people?

Adesoji Iginla (19:33.355)
Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (19:53.11)
museums.

Aya Fubara Eneli (20:03.214)
When I was living, if you stole, you did not want to announce that you were a thief.

Adesoji Iginla (20:13.56)
Hahaha!

Aya Fubara Eneli (20:14.35)
You will hide the thing, you will bring it out little so that people won't know. But these people, they came, they stole, and then they built a big building and said, look at me, ole, ole thief. I wonder at, some things I just look at, say.

Aya Fubara Eneli (20:41.258)
What upbringing is that?

You think about it, you... Like, sometimes I want to laugh, like maybe it's a joke, but it's not a joke because they've carried these things for how many centuries now? And then they are making money off the thing. Okay, I know you will tell the story later. You know we were asking for our things back. Later you tell your people what they said, okay. Because by that time, yeah, died. Okay, so...

Adesoji Iginla (21:02.752)
Centuries, yeah, centuries.

Adesoji Iginla (21:07.904)
Of course.

Aya Fubara Eneli (21:18.222)
The war broke out. Division. Brother against brother. These things are not good. But let me tell you, I had the power of herbal medicine. I had the power of divination. I had the ability to communicate with the spirit world. I knew how to prepare rituals for warriors. In fact, the time my husband, entered me.

Adesoji Iginla (21:22.944)
Mm. Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (21:48.374)
I was already protecting my son. He came out already protected. Always he had his amulets on him. Sometimes something like this. I had the knowledge of dreams, omens, and I had the knowledge of reading nature signs. You know you can use nature to understand things. Did you people not one time talk about, hey, was it the maroons?

Adesoji Iginla (21:56.076)
Mmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (22:17.526)
And you talked about when the white people use what we used to use and said, there's going to be the moon is going to come out like this. And because our people had forgotten some of the natural signs, when the white man now said it and it happened, they thought, he's powerful. We used to have that knowledge and we put it into use, but they come, they copy everything from us and then they take it and then we forget who we are, forget our knowledge. And then we're looking at them like, Hey, this is someone I should worship.

We need to do better. Okay, so we had this civil war. It was called the Battle of Udu. And you know what? I led the spiritual warfare. I assisted with the military training and the military strategy. See, it doesn't matter, and we should remember this today. It doesn't matter how strong the opponent is.

If you study them and then you study your own strengths and you study your terrain, you can come up with a strategy that no matter what resources they have, no matter how big or how strong their army is, strategy. But let me ask you people, do you even think strategy anymore?

Or do you just sit down? Hey, there's nothing we can do. We are just sitting there. What do you people call it in English? Sitting ducks. No. So if you want to know about me, I'm telling you that you have to know who my people were, what our philosophy was, what our training was, how that impacted who I was, how that impacted what I did.

which is why you even know me today or you want to talk about me today. So this war went on from 1516 through 1517. A very serious war. It really pained my heart. And I wanted that war to end quickly because brother and brother never need to fight each other. And then all the strong men that are being killed, all the resources of the community that are going to war.

Aya Fubara Eneli (24:41.41)
that could be used for something better. All the women now mourning their sons and their husbands, all the children without fathers, we don't want war. So I wanted to use strategy to quickly bring things to an end. So 1516 to 1517, war is raging on. And by 1517, my son had prevailed and he was named, and he was now crowned the oba.

and

Adesoji Iginla (25:36.214)
So, so.

Aya Fubara Eneli (25:41.42)
He understood the importance of making sure that one man had a role in the politics of the land. And the other people who had been observing, because know, Oba doesn't make decisions just by himself. They say, they say, they're elders, they're other chiefs, they're other people advisors. You people have somebody I heard that says now,

Adesoji Iginla (26:02.004)
Of course.

Aya Fubara Eneli (26:11.65)
And that country, that country did not exist when we, when I was around. What do you call it? United, they're not even United. They just use words anyhow, anyhow. United, when, when, when were they United States of America? When, when, and the America is a lot of places.

Adesoji Iginla (26:22.198)
the United States of.

Aya Fubara Eneli (26:40.062)
So how is that one country, the United States of America? Do you people... Okay, I'm just asking because when I'm hearing these things, I'm thinking about them and sometimes they don't always make sense. So I always ask questions so that someone can explain it. So do you have an explanation or we should just carry on?

Adesoji Iginla (27:03.27)
well, it's...

Just carry on. It defies explanation. It defies explanation.

Aya Fubara Eneli (27:09.696)
Okay. Okay. Some things are like that. anyway, we existed before this United thing that you're talking about. I don't know what their definition of United is. But anyway, so.

Adesoji Iginla (27:25.086)
United States.

Aya Fubara Eneli (27:30.158)
If you're going to study history and you're not even studying people like me or my people and you start with someone, it's like, you have an elder and you want to talk, ask question of a baby. How is the baby going to give you any logical answer? Anyway, so my son created the title, Iyoba, right? Queen Mother is how you people...

translated, making me the first queen mother of the name. And did that title remain still today? So I held in that position. He now built a palace for me. So I'm not just somebody's wife or just somebody's mother. I'm the queen mother. I had a palace. I had my own,

political realm, if you will. I was still doing what I was doing in terms of spirituality, guiding women, bringing up another generation, supporting the kingdom, using my gifts and my talents to make our kingdom safe and secure for everybody. I helped to manage state affairs. I participated in diplomatic talks. I participated in ceremonial.

duties as well. Some people now they would say, what is that other word? Patron. Some people would say like, I was a patron of the arts. I was a patron of medicine and spiritual institution. I don't know what, you, what I would tell you is I was someone who believed in that, believed in our culture, believed in our history. And I believed in teaching like I was taught.

Adesoji Iginla (29:11.03)
Thanks

Aya Fubara Eneli (29:26.892)
you have to pass these things on. And I was definitely completely respected everywhere for my wisdom and my power. I wasn't just the type of woman who just, some of you, it's like diarrhea of the mouth. Now, I will tell you, see these marks on my head? When I was younger.

Adesoji Iginla (29:30.674)
Hmm. Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (29:53.59)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (29:55.414)
And we were praying to find out, should I marry this Oba in light of the dreams that I had? Is this really what I should do? You should always seek wisdom. So my parents brought, people call it like a medicine man, like a diviner. And he put these marks in my head, put medicine in there. When he did it, you know,

Adesoji Iginla (30:18.764)
in sessions.

Aya Fubara Eneli (30:21.678)
some of the youth people now sometimes they call something tribal mark everything you just think it's a mark it's not just a mark it always has a spiritual component to it it always has a cultural underpinning to it now and with the tattoo you just you just see something anyway you just put it on your body you don't even understand the energy of what you're doing you have to think anyway

Adesoji Iginla (30:46.828)
Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (30:51.254)
So he put the medicine in, he chanted over me, I fell into a deep sleep. When I was sleeping, I saw that dream that I had as a child again. And that's how I knew, yes, marry the Oba. And of course, it was in that position as the Oba's wife that I was then able to begin at a different level, or continue the work that I had been doing. Some people know about,

a war that I really, beyond the one with my son, when we fought other people, I was also providing military strategy and all of that. So, I told you about my dancing. I love to dance. So one of the things that I'm known for is the Ekasa dance. Hey, you have to go.

What are you people's technology? don't know. that thing you call a tube or the, okay, YouTube. You're okay. But it might have, if you type in a casa, E-K-A-S-S-A, you might see us. let me tell you. You want to see some beautiful women moving as God has ordained for us to move. It's a thing of wonder. It's a thing. In fact, of course.

Adesoji Iginla (31:51.976)
YouTube. YouTube. Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (32:08.874)
intended.

Aya Fubara Eneli (32:16.694)
I really shouldn't be surprised that the Oba was so interested after seeing me dance. But anyway, the Akasa dance that is still going on today, it's part of our culture. It's something that we continue today. Of course, some of you may have heard of the Ida battle. Again, that could not have been won without my military strategy, which again,

Adesoji Iginla (32:21.548)
You

Aya Fubara Eneli (32:45.09)
did not just come because I just wanted to be a military strategist. It came from all the learning that I had done as a child. And then as I continued growing up, I continued to pay attention. I wasn't wasting my time. I was growing. I was learning. And then what I would learn, I would put to use. So after my death, because of course everybody must die at some point.

They're saying the historians are saying I died around somewhere in the 1530s. But after my death, my son, what a wonderful child. My son commissioned for a mask to be made. If you look in the background, this is a replica of the mask.

Adesoji Iginla (33:34.476)
Mmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (33:41.654)
Some of you know it best for something that was now many centuries later called Festac. Maybe you can tell them a little bit about that. Festac 1977. Do you know that this mask and the original bronze head that was made of me, it's a bust and head. If you see, will see my marks, will see my headdress, everything.

Adesoji Iginla (33:50.22)
7 to 7.

Aya Fubara Eneli (34:08.172)
These thieves stole it and put it in that place they call museum.

in the ancestral realm and understanding that when the modern Nigerian leaders now said give us back our mask when they were going to do this FESTAX 77 that these thieves hey it's a wonder these thieves said no now there's no dispute that it's not their own

Adesoji Iginla (34:44.94)
Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (34:45.43)
They don't have the capability. Have you seen the intricacy on that mask? Let me tell you, when you go and look at the details, you will see the mud fish. know, do you, my son, do you know why the mud fish is there? So the mud fish is a fish. can live on land. It can live in the water. And it was a representation of a zorba in that

Adesoji Iginla (34:53.74)
Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (35:02.198)
Do it,

Aya Fubara Eneli (35:14.35)
process you are human but you are definitely operating in the spiritual realm as well and it's that duality and I think the people if we trace we probably came from them in fact I know we came from them you go back to the people of Kemet and you understand my art and you understand duality so

Adesoji Iginla (35:40.844)
Mmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (35:42.442)
On that mask, will see intricately, you will see the mudfish. You will also see some like faces of the Portuguese traders. It locates when this thing was done. At that time, these white people that have now stolen our things and have no shame and are now using the things to make more money.

Adesoji Iginla (35:47.712)
Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (35:54.974)
Yes, yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (36:09.102)
Do you know that they didn't even know how to bath themselves? You understand what I'm saying? no, let me say it. They didn't know how, how do you say, they didn't know how to bathe themselves, give themselves baths. It's thinking backward people. At the time when in our kingdom, we had agriculture, we had trenches, the kingdom of Benin, we had streets, we had

planning the whole kingdom was laid out. Do you know that we had a process where at night time the place would be lit up? And then you people want to come and act like we are primitives. They did not even know how to give themselves a bath when we were doing these things. And then you won't even study us. You won't study our history.

Adesoji Iginla (36:39.658)
out.

Adesoji Iginla (37:00.556)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (37:06.432)
important to study because we need to understand what are the mistakes that we made that brought us to this place because if you understand and that is that military strategy I'm talking about too if you understand we should have gone left instead of right then now you can cross you can cross correct you can move differently but you won't even study us anyway so my son

just so celebrated my life and celebrated what I've done. He didn't try to take credit for it. He didn't try to hide it. He didn't try to give it, give the, the, if you want to call it glory to a man. And that really created this culture where even to today we have Yoruba. Even till today, women have a place, women have a voice that is not just relegated to

we cooked and we had children. And of course, my face showcasing the craftship. Again, they want me to say craftsmanship, but womancraft too. But anyway, showcasing what we were capable of doing is now displayed in other places.

Adesoji Iginla (38:08.47)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (38:34.53)
So that's just a little bit about who I was. What other questions do you have for me? What would you like me to talk about? and you know the mask, it was made from ivory. Have you ever touched real ivory? Do you know the kind of excellence it takes with your hand and some basic tools?

Adesoji Iginla (38:43.2)
OK, so.

Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (39:03.694)
and the spirit leading you to create the kind of artwork they created. And then of course, my son wore pendants with my face for the rest of his life at all the ceremonial events that he had. He celebrated me, he showcased it.

Adesoji Iginla (39:25.356)
So speaking of the pendant, before we go further, the face of the pendant is this picture over here. So you can clearly see that's the pendant that's sitting. This is actually still situated in Metropolitan.

Aya Fubara Eneli (39:44.162)
Please keep showing that picture. Is that not beautiful? You see how they just captured my nose, my lips, the marks. my goodness.

Adesoji Iginla (39:48.044)
Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (39:57.598)
and the beads. And this, the coral beads. That picture there is a picture of the pendant that the oba used to wear till he is passing. It is now in the Metropolitan Art Museum in New York.

Aya Fubara Eneli (39:58.966)
We are one, yes, the coral beads, yes, yes.

Adesoji Iginla (40:22.516)
Speaking of the spiritual power of women.

Aya Fubara Eneli (40:26.074)
But you know they have me everywhere. They have me, the ivory mask is in the British Museum in London. And then the Metropolitan Museum of, okay, carry on. Tell them all the places that they carried me to, but they will not give us credit, yes.

Adesoji Iginla (40:35.486)
yeah, I was coming to that actually. I was coming to that actually. I was coming to that. Okay, so for the audience who might at some point come to London or for those who do live in London, when you go to the British Museum, which is in central London, there's quite a queue to get in, which again, was the reason I was laughing earlier, because people do, you know,

You do pay, I mean, you, they will say you're donating to get in, but then you go in and you get to buy stuff and what have you. So it's at the African section, you come down two flights of stairs and it is right in front. It's the first thing you see. can't listen, you can't miss it. It is you, you go through the two double doors.

Boom, in your face. And the thing about the eyes, which is this is the mask I'm talking about.

The thing about the eyes is the eyes follow the room is about, let's see, the room is about the size of a standard living room. But the eyes literally follow you everywhere you go. If you turn around at an angle, it's almost as if the eyes are staring at you. So when

We found out that one of the guys who was part of the expedition, 1897 Bini expedition, which only happened because Bini refused to trade with the British. That was the only reason that happened. That expedition, were, you said Bini was a place of tradition, of... So there was a certain period of time...

Adesoji Iginla (42:42.11)
when no foreigner could come into Benin. But this British guy wanted to impose himself and decided he was going to come and he was repelled in the course of which he lost his life and the British decided to make mockery of Benin. So again there's another important historical artifact of Benin that was not cutted away

Across the world, China is known for what? The Great Wall of China. Benin too has the Great Wall of Benin. And if you Google it you

Aya Fubara Eneli (43:19.54)
say it is actually longer than the so-called Great Wall of China. Yes, people did know that.

Adesoji Iginla (43:25.706)
The Great Wall of China. Yes.

No, most people don't. So, and Benin was, even to the Dutch traders who came in, they marveled at what you talked about earlier, the layout. The layout was like Amsterdam. They used

Aya Fubara Eneli (43:47.37)
No, you mean Amsterdam was like our layout because we came before them when they came. Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (43:51.412)
Yes, no, to them. When they came in and saw it, it was like, wow, this is comparable to what we had. So again, it goes back to the question I was about to ask. All of what I've just recounted now have been lost due to colonial interpretations, which has distorted not just the history of the place, but the role of the women.

in said place, what would you advise of how to reverse that distortion?

Aya Fubara Eneli (44:31.64)
Well, I would say to my sisters, I would say to all of us, I don't buy into this division, but let me talk to the women. Don't let anybody limit you and tell you what you can and cannot do. If I followed just the tradition at the time for girls of my age, I would not have sat with my father. I would not have been listening to.

the strategies of the military, again, that word is not that word, of the men of our time who provided protection for our people, for our kingdom. And so, and you know, when you talk about my political strategy and the fact that I was able to broker alliances with various groups.

I was able to secure loyalty, for instance, from the Iwebo and the Ibiwo. It's because I pay attention to culture, to history, to politics. You have to understand, you can't just, I'm just here and this is all I need to know. You have to broaden your mind. So for women and for all people and definitely for all African people.

We have an obligation, I would say, to learn white and deep. You never know which information is gonna help. You can't just say, I'm going to be a stay at home mom. I think that's what you people call it. So all I do is clean and cook. No, because you're also raising children and what you expose them to matters and you can expose them to something that.

You have never bothered to learn yourself. So what I would say to women is that in any place where people are trying to restrict what women can learn and what and how they have access to information and resources, you must fight to be able to have that access, to be able to grow your mind, build your body as far as you can go, because that is what then positions you.

Aya Fubara Eneli (46:53.016)
to be able to be a change maker. And I think that for, know, there's too many of us now, we are allowing the very people who do not want to see us live, let alone prosper, we are allowing them to dictate what we do with our time. We are allowing them to dictate what comes into our brains, what we think about, what we spend our money on.

Adesoji Iginla (47:15.716)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (47:22.316)
what we spend, what we do with our bodies. So that would be my first advice. And then for those of you who are the male persuasion, who might be in positions to create more opportunities for women, don't be afraid. We are one people. We are one people. Don't be afraid. Be the one who opens doors. Be the one who helps.

everybody to be able to live up to whatever their potential, whatever dream has been given to them. Don't be the one that is blocking the ability. And if you've been given a dream and all of you have, because I really believe that every child that comes into this world, God has something that that child is supposed to do. So quit allowing people to derail your life.

You know, where you just take a detour and then you stay there. You never come back to your path. That is not the way to live. But you know, in all of this, something that really made a difference in my life is paying attention to the spiritual. Now people think they're so brilliant that they know everything. You don't know everything. You don't even know. You don't, you don't know nothing. Nothing. So.

You have to commune with your ancestors. You have to commune with the spirit. have to commune. Whether you, I don't know what you call it, whether you want to call this God, deity, whatever you want to call it. There's something beyond you, something that came before you that will be here while you're here, will be here after you so-called leave. And then the question is, where do you even leave and go to? We're all connected in this, this, I think you, your people's work, maybe cosmology, something like that.

But to hear from the spirit, you have to be quiet. You people are never quiet. Hey, choo choo choo choo choo choo choo choo noise everywhere, everywhere all the time. You have to be quiet. You have to be quiet. Spiritual things, the job done, it's not just going to, you have to be quiet because it will come to those that they know are receptive.

Adesoji Iginla (49:29.375)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (49:46.592)
Okay, let me use this as an example that maybe your people might understand. people have heard of that thing called yoga. Okay. Now they will have something that say camel pose, pigeon pose, happy baby pose, praying mantis. They have all of these.

Aya Fubara Eneli (50:15.124)
I'm telling you people, you stop and sit down and think. Don't just take stuff up and don't think about it. Have you ever asked yourself, beyond learning those poses, how did that come about? See, somebody sat quiet enough, maybe days, maybe months, maybe years, and said, this is how, this is how,

Adesoji Iginla (50:29.91)
Hmm. It's a deep time.

Aya Fubara Eneli (50:45.186)
the frog moves. This is how the pigeon moves. And then was able to figure out a human version of it to keep us in better balance and better health. So the question is, if you're never quiet, how are you going to hear? That is a big thing that I want to leave with everybody. You have to study wide, you have to study deep, and

You need to commune with the spirits, with God, with your ancestors. And you can't do that if it's always noise around you. You have to go back to being quiet.

Adesoji Iginla (51:29.972)
You alluded to the Nigerian government in 1976 hoping to get back the brainy, the masked head in anticipation of the festival that was due to be held in the country. And the British saying no at that time. Well, they're still technically saying no because during the last pandemic that we had,

I don't know if guys, if you had any sort of global pandemic during your time, but we had one recently where lots of people lost their lives as a result of a contagion that was, you know, besieged the planet.

Adesoji Iginla (52:20.892)
The question that we emanate from that is if once historical legacy has been stolen how do people recover it based on

Either, like you said, study or spirituality. Which would you prefer?

Aya Fubara Eneli (52:45.806)
I'm so glad you asked that question because I was actually going to talk about this even if you had not asked me this particular question. Let me say this. Okay, I'm going to make an assumption that many of your people who watch, maybe they are more familiar with Christianity. Now let's say your grandfather had a Bible or your grandmother had a Bible.

where they wrote all the family secrets and prayers and births and deaths and all of those things. It's the Bible that they prayed on for all kinds of them when they got the first house or got some land or something. And then someone comes and takes that Bible away. And you know where they've taken it to. Will you just sit down and say, well?

It's gone. I took it. You know, it's not a big deal. You know, at least I have a picture of it. I can buy another Bible. I think I want to hope that most of you would recognize that as some of you might call it a family heirloom, but some of you may go deeper and understand how that Bible is a symbol of your

legacy of your family of your dreams and accomplishments. And so the first thing I would say is we have to decide that these things that they put in the museum and called it artwork.

that it's more than just art. That these are our heirlooms. These are things that in the physical connect us to the past. We must understand the spirit that went into creating those things. And I'm going to even say the spirit that still dwells in those things, but are now imprisoned and trapped.

Adesoji Iginla (54:58.956)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (54:59.616)
in the hands of your enemies, because that's what they are. You steal from me, you don't give me back my stuff, you are my enemy. So first there has to be that deep understanding that will then drive a resolve that it's not okay to now go to that same Britain and smile and buy their land and give them your money.

and buy their designer water what that they're selling you and not make a demand for your things back.

How strong has our demand been for our things that have been stolen and scattered all over that place called Europe? So I don't think that we really have taken the time to understand the connection of that thing. You know you can touch a thing and feel something. Even today, I think people have like crystals and they say, you use this crystal, you feel this, do you?

the energy in our things. They are going to call them things because we did not produce art for art's sake. That is the European thing and they despiritualize everything. We produce things out of the fullness of our spirits.

Adesoji Iginla (56:31.244)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (56:32.162)
They were divinely inspired. They were not just decoration. They always had a ritualistic aspect to them. They had a function. They were never just, let me see. that's so beautiful. And then you walk away. That's not how we operate it. So the first thing I would say is we have to get that understanding deep inside of us. And maybe one of the ways to do it for those of you who have access,

to these places where they are parading our stolen goods, is go in and be quiet and let that spirit talk to your spirit. Allow yourself to feel it.

And I'm telling you that once we get to that place, we will come up with the fight and the strategy to get our things back. You got, you're talking about trading. You cannot come and buy oil until you give me back my stuff because you're not my friend. And the way they have made you want their own things. Did we not used to live before? They creating you these appetites for their things.

and then you lose your mind and you forget what you should be doing. So I would say, I spoke stridently not to shock or offend your listeners, but I was speaking out of my passion and my pain.

that the things that we created.

Aya Fubara Eneli (58:16.238)
for very specific purposes.

have been forcefully taken away from us and we're not doing enough to bring them back. We must bring them back. And as we do that, we're going to start to understand the importance of unity because it's not just fighting for Benin and for my masks and everything else they stole from our kingdom. It's understanding that they did the same thing all across the continent. And even today,

for my African brothers and sisters all over the world. We create stuff, they steal it. Whether it's your music, whether it's your style of dress, whether it's your... We have to see how these things are connected and we have to start fighting back. First, get the knowledge. Get quiet with your ancestors. Get that righteous anger and it will lead you to what you need to do.

to be the divine sovereign people that we always wear and that we must get back to.

You know, one of the things my father taught me is the responsibility of being a warrior. You don't go into leadership, you don't go into being a medicine person, you don't go into any of these things with the sense of, I'm going so that I can get glory or so I can make, what do you people call it now? Money, so I can get rich. You understand the responsibility that comes with it.

Aya Fubara Eneli (59:59.084)
And that it is that understanding of the responsibility that makes you want to hone your skills in such a way that you can.

most of the time perform with excellence. How many of you even set it as a goal to be excellent? How often do you even use that word? Do you understand the responsibility that comes with leadership? Not answering title, there's a responsibility. And I think too many of our leaders in Africa and all around the globe, African people, we've forgotten that part of the responsibility.

Adesoji Iginla (01:00:15.689)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:00:43.288)
We just want the title and the red carpet that you people have, the accolades, the access to riches, but there's a responsibility. And I think that the reason we're not connecting to the responsibilities is because we have separated the spirit from what we're doing. Leaders were led by the spirit. Good leaders.

Adesoji Iginla (01:01:11.86)
That's a very happy note. I would want us to leave it there actually because that last part which was going to sit with those spiritually inspired.

depiction of our ancestors is I mean I've been there now British Museum, gosh 2019 I will drive past the place I would look at it and I'll keep moving beyond that there's just no it's just I understand the need to go and look at it but

The fact that somebody, like you said, I mean, and these places are dotted around England. So that's another thing. But I might be visiting the British Museum soon just to do what you said. So you're welcome. So for those who would like to know more about Queen Edia, do you have any resources?

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:02:16.504)
Thank you, my son.

Adesoji Iginla (01:02:27.712)
I mean, I've got some to share, but you go first.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:02:29.358)
Please go ahead and share. There is a beautiful children's book called Princess Zidya. I believe it was printed in Nigeria. But you probably can get it on Amazon. That is where I hear you people. Everything is... Again, I'm thinking about your names like the Amazon forest, but...

You're gonna deplete it. don't know. Okay. Anyway, so there is that book, but share the resources that you have. There many articles that have been written about me. You will find me embedded in many books, but not necessarily like whole big books, except for the children's books about me. But I will also give you some other books that you can look at as well.

Adesoji Iginla (01:03:13.75)
Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (01:03:25.524)
Okay, so you could see, like you said, embedded in the British Museum by Dan Hicks. yeah, that one. That's one of two would be Loot by Bannaby Phillips. Blood and bronze. Pardee Doherty. And then

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:03:49.228)
Yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:03:56.086)
Any book on the Benin Kingdom will have some reference to me, some more than others, depending on who wrote it and whether they think women are of importance or not.

Adesoji Iginla (01:04:01.884)
Yes, yes.

Adesoji Iginla (01:04:08.62)
The historical dictionary on Nigeria written by Tonyi Falola would hold stories on Queen Edia. Factstack 77, if you can find this book, I'm not, know, it's a rare print anyway. So if you can find it, there's a huge chunk on her here. And...

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:04:15.822)
soon.

Adesoji Iginla (01:04:37.61)
The fact you talked about it was.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:04:39.746)
There's one called In the Niger Country by James Pinnock. Unfortunately, so many of these books, you mentioned Toyin Falala, thank you, but many of these books were written by the colonizers. But we're still grateful, I guess. There's a book called Benin, Cambridge Introduction to World History. You can find me in there, but I really like

Adesoji Iginla (01:04:56.106)
Yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:05:09.364)
idea of the Benin Kingdom. It's a children's book and it's beautiful and they really cut, yes, they really capture the essence of who I am and it's an easy read for people of any age. But you do want to study and know about more than just where you live.

Adesoji Iginla (01:05:12.812)
Sharesbook,

The illustration is here.

Adesoji Iginla (01:05:28.108)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (01:05:34.912)
Yes. And speaking about knowing more than just where you live, this is actually a more recent book published by Senegalese, two Senegalese, and it's titled 15 Colonial Tests. And these two guys here actually champion the idea of getting all of those artifacts returned. So this not only looks at Benin,

also looks at everywhere else on the continent where the artifacts have been looted from. So the title of this is 15 Colonial Theft, a Guide to Looted African Heritage in Museums Across the World. and this is actually, to read this you have to have a very strong constitution because the kinds of

atrocities that were committed in getting those things to everywhere including

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:06:36.908)
You know, you know, you know, when you, when you hold up that title, that book again, and the title, some of you write this thing called English language. Do you see how you can, they, they often tell you write in an active voice, not in a passive voice, even with people advocating, and maybe because of whoever is publishing their book, they had to do this. But even with the people advocating for the return, we, we just kind of.

Adesoji Iginla (01:07:00.458)
Yes, yes, yes, yes. I know what you're doing.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:07:06.837)
take the thieves out of it. It's a colonial theft like it just kind of happened by some strange happenstance as opposed to

15 countries or 15 leaders, whoever it is that was in charge, who are bona fide the biggest thieves on the face of the planet. I mean, like, call them, all this muted, he was killed. No, no, no, no, no, talk about the murderer, the killer, talk about the thieves, but this is a fight that you people must fight, but we, we in the ancestral realm.

Adesoji Iginla (01:07:42.506)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I is.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:07:48.546)
We are here to support you, but you people don't even reach out to us. Don't reach out to us.

Adesoji Iginla (01:07:53.804)
Hmm. Hmm.

Yeah, speaking of reaching out, we're going to reach out to another ancestor next week and that will be Pauli Mori.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:08:15.18)
I'm so, you know what? Strategy. Was she not about strategy? So when you go into her story, you understand how this strategy can show up in different ways. Yes, yes, yes.

Adesoji Iginla (01:08:21.76)
Hmm. Yes, yes, yes.

Adesoji Iginla (01:08:31.18)
Mm-hmm. Yes, exactly. So again, we're here to bring the stories of great women and how the stories of women will not be erased. And one story at a time. Tonight has been the story of Queen Edia of Benin. Next week, as I said earlier, it will be Pauli Mori's turn.

But before then, have to thank Queen Edia for turning up and gracing the stage. do you have any final thoughts for us?

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:09:12.802)
Yes, to my daughters.

No division here. Don't be don't hear what I'm saying as division. However,

When I tell you that there is power in being a woman, I want you people to find the power in being a woman and be a woman. Our community needs that. Part of our liberation requires women to be women, men to be men. And don't read it like how you people are reading it now. I'm just saying everything that God has put in you, be it. Be it. That is what I'm saying.

Adesoji Iginla (01:09:53.097)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (01:09:57.58)
So on that inspiring note, I would say thank you all for listening. And it's if you do like and share, it will grow a great deal to not just champion the stories of this women, but also inspire somebody out there to say, listen, whatever it is, I'm going through pills.

significance in comparison to what these women have been through. So until next week, it's a good night from me and God bless.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:10:35.278)
tonight.