EP 10 Amy Ashwood Garvey - Flaming Pan Africanism I Women And Resistance 🌍

This conversation, featuring Aya Fubara Eneli Esq. and Adesoji Iginla, explored the life and legacy of Amy Ashwood Garvey, a prominent figure in the Pan-African movement and co-founder of the Universal Negro Improvement Association (UNIA). 

The discussion covers her early life, education, activism, and the significant role she played in advocating for women's rights and empowerment within the context of the African diaspora. Through her personal experiences and cultural contributions, 

Amy Ashwood Garvey's story highlights the importance of recognising women's contributions to social and political movements.

Takeaways

*Amy Ashwood Garvey was born in Jamaica and had a rich heritage.
*She was a co-founder of the UNIA and played a crucial role in its early development.
*Her education and upbringing shaped her activism and understanding of racial issues.
*Amy emphasised the importance of women's participation in liberation movements.
*She faced personal challenges and societal expectations as a woman in activism.
*Her cultural contributions included writing plays that addressed social issues.
*Amy was involved in various political movements and advocated for women's rights.
*She opened a restaurant that served as a hub for activism and community engagement.
*Her legacy continues to inspire discussions on gender and race in activism.
*Amy's story serves as a poignant reminder of the interconnectedness of the African diaspora and the ongoing struggle for liberation.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Amy Ashwood Garvey
02:21 Early Life and Heritage
05:02 Education and Feminism
09:52 Activism and the UNIA
17:13 Women in Leadership and the UNIA
24:35 Personal Struggles and Contributions
32:13 Reflections on Liberation and Gender Roles
34:43 Building Bridges: The Role of Women in Pan-Africanism
36:53 Activism Through Art: The Influence of Theatre
40:25 The Legacy of UNIA: Challenges and Triumphs
42:59 Culinary Activism: Creating Spaces for Dialogue
46:10 Women in Leadership: Overcoming Barriers
50:15 The Cost of Activism: Surveillance and Suppression
52:56 Reflections on Unity: Lessons from the Past
56:56 A Call to Action: Rising Together

Welcome  to Women and Resistance, a powerful podcast where we honour the courage, resilience, and revolutionary spirit of women across the globe. Hosted by Aya Fubara Eneli Esq and Adesoji Iginla...

You're listening to Women and Resistance with Aya Fubara Eneli Esq and Adesoji Iginla—where we honour the voices of women who have shaped history through courage and defiance...Now, back to the conversation.

That’s it for this episode of Women and Resistance. Thank you for joining us in amplifying the voices of women who challenge injustice and change the course of history. Be sure to subscribe, share, and continue the conversation. Together We Honour the past, act in the present, and shape the future. Until next time, stay inspired and stay in resistance!

Transcript

Adesoji Iginla (00:02.6)
And we're live. Yes. Good evening. Good evening and greetings and welcome to another episode of Women and Resistance. Apologies for the late.

coming on. It was due to gremlins on my part. and yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli (00:24.918)
Bye.

Adesoji Iginla (00:27.98)
I'm one of your hosts, Adesuji Ginla. And with me, as usual, is Aya Fubera, NALS Choir. How are you?

Aya Fubara Eneli (00:38.443)
I am doing wonderful and really excited to delve into some of my history with you.

Adesoji Iginla (00:47.956)
Okay. And the history in we're talking about today is that of Amy Ashwood Garvey And for those who

Aya Fubara Eneli (00:59.179)
for one week only, it's the prime time of it. That's not her.

Adesoji Iginla (01:02.766)
For those who are unaware of who Amy Ashutugave is, did you mind giving us a short intro into her humble beginnings?

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:19.549)
Let me first make this distinction.

Adesoji Iginla (01:23.054)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:23.829)
because there's so much that I'm going to try and share with you during this time that we have. I am Amy Ashwood Garvey.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:36.885)
there is a book that has been written and published by Tony Martin called The Tale of the Two Amies. And because so many people want to confuse and conflate us and marginalize and erase me, here is a very quick and easy way to remember who I am and to distinguish me from that other lady.

Adesoji Iginla (01:44.407)
I miss.

Adesoji Iginla (01:48.584)
you

Aya Fubara Eneli (02:06.023)
Amy Ashwood. A comes before J.

Amy Ashford Garvey as distinct from Amy Jack's Garvey. Or Jackwith, whatever she called herself. You know, do you know, I mean, just so I can get the salacious part out first, do you know that she was a maid of honor in my wedding to Marcus Garvey? That's a whole other conversation that later we women should have about.

how we, the role we play in our liberation. And although she and I in later years after, and I will go back into this after.

She married him, but I'm really the only legal wife of Marcus Garvey. I think that based on how I lived my life and how she lived her life, that perhaps just like we had been friends prior to, we could have been friends again. But that might be mere speculation.

Adesoji Iginla (02:59.756)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (03:21.353)
after so many decades have passed. But that was a stinging betrayal nonetheless. So now to go more into detail about who I am.

I was born Amy Ashwood and I was born in Jamaica. However, my family relocated to Panama and I lived in Panama. I grew up in Panama until I was 11 years old. And then at that time I returned to

Jamaica.

My married name of course is Amy Ashwood Garvey, but I've had many other names. I will go into some detail about this, but do you know that I have a Yoruba name? I will tell you, you did not know that. Do you also know that I adopted the name Akosua Bohamea, which is from my Ghanaian heritage because

in my lineage, my great grandmother talked to me and told me about how she was kidnapped, stolen from her people. Human trafficking is not a recent thing and was brought to the Caribbean. And she told me about my heritage, which was very important to me because as a little girl,

Aya Fubara Eneli (05:12.415)
I was attending a school and a teacher attempted to kind of be dismissive towards who we were as black people and that we didn't know our lineage and just relegating us to people who had once been enslaved. And I was very bothered by this. I spoke to my father and it was then that my father took me back to go and have this conversation with.

my great grandma that allowed me to understand the history that we came from. And of course that drastically changed my understanding of who we are and my lifelong commitment to what was then coined Pan-Africanism. But understanding that Black people across the diaspora, all people of African descent, that we are connected, we have one struggle.

our liberation is won. So I was born January 10th, 1897 in Port Antonio, Jamaica. My parents were Michael Delbert Ashwood and my father was a successful black Jamaican businessman. So I grew up middle class and it's important for me to share this because you will understand

how the family that I originated from actually was instrumental in the beginnings of UNIA, the United Negro Improvement Association. So like I said, I discovered that I was of Ashanti descent and that my mother, Madrina Ashwood Nate Thompson, was a daughter of a mixed race Haitian woman.

See where these connections, cannot, whenever I see today the children of Africans vying and arguing amongst ourselves, it is a mark of ignorance.

Aya Fubara Eneli (07:32.785)
So my mother, Madrina Ashwood, who was a daughter of a mixed-race Haitian woman, that grandmother had migrated to Jamaica in the mid-1800s. So I grew up very aware of a kind of racial hierarchy, even within systems. And of course, I was a dark-skinned woman. And I had an understanding

of how what we now call colorism even impacted the fortunes of Black people and particularly Black women even then. But I understood how these racial hierarchies configured into the Caribbean and the legacies of colonialism that had shaped my own family, the migration and settlement in Jamaica, and even after that,

I moved to Panama, which was during the height of the Panama Canal's construction. And so I actually started my education in a place where I learned to speak Spanish as well. It was a Methodist school, right? So when you study me, when you study anybody, when you study yourself, very important to try to

Get beyond just the surface of what you think you know and to ask questions because the connections are there. We are so interwoven and you will see how this understanding of how connected we are shows up in things that I did later on in my life. So

Adesoji Iginla (09:04.61)
Perfect.

Aya Fubara Eneli (09:31.447)
It returned to Jamaica and I attended what was a prestigious school at the time the Westwood High School for girls They are the only place at this time that I've really Tried to acknowledge me. They have a Center named after me at the school. Of course, I have a blue plaque now in London at the place that I used to live but again More that I might get into or that

you might go and study yourself. And that school, Westwood High School, was known for rigorous curricula. And it was inclusive of children, students from everywhere, regardless of color, regardless of class or religion. And it was at a time when most Jamaican schools denied children based on their color or their skin.

but it was here that I thrived. I was always a very brilliant, forward-thinking individual. It was also here that I really got... What? You know, people now backtrack and wanna call me a feminist.

At no point did I call myself that. That is a modern, the late 19th century, early 20th century, well, maybe 20th century, 21st century. That's when you people have really been adopting all of these things. That wasn't something that I called myself, but I understand where they were coming from in that I advocated for women. So I told you about this conversation I had about 12 with another teacher.

and all this notion about we were just slaves and understanding that my history predates slavery was something that radically changed how I saw myself in the world. And I believe a history we must teach to other kids, to other children. All African children should understand who they really are because it changes how they see themselves. It changes what they do in the world.

Aya Fubara Eneli (11:50.807)
So this was my grandmother who explained this history for me. It's important too for you to note that one of the things that was important to me was not to separate what we would call intellectual work from grassroots activism or from the culture that infused our people.

You know, there cannot be a division based on religion or class and certainly not on gender. And that is something that continues to rear its ugly head over and over again in our community. I was very focused on how political leadership should be creative and grounded.

in the experiences of people, the lived experiences of people, not some pie in the sky kind of conversation, but how do we bring this and make it relevant to our lives? So for those of you looking to organize today, are you just talking amongst yourselves and using language and the books you've read, which are certainly necessary and impressive?

Or are you making the connection in very creative and relatable ways to how people live every day? Can the janitor understand where they fit in and the importance of their resistance as well as the sex worker? You know, I used to have a hostel in England, in London.

And in this place, we had students from Africa. You know, was very hard for Africans to find a place to live. We had women who were sex workers. We had men who were working construction. It was important to acknowledge the humanity of everybody. So again, let me say this part and get it out of the way, because of course it is part of my name. It's important.

Adesoji Iginla (14:03.886)
Thank

Aya Fubara Eneli (14:16.383)
was 17 years old. Ha ha! And there was not much you could tell me. Well, yes, I did listen and I did learn. But I was debating and speaking at a forum. And there was a gentleman there who seemed to be quite in agreeance with the points I was making. Well, I finished my presentation.

what I had to present and argue. And I quickly tried to get to the train station to make my way home.

Aya Fubara Eneli (14:54.487)
And I was relayed by this gentleman who I recognized from being in the room where I had just been speaking.

Aya Fubara Eneli (15:09.139)
what a human being he was and he said alas I have found the Josephine to my Napoleon

Aya Fubara Eneli (15:22.751)
I suppose he fashioned himself after that. Exactly. I think in latter days we would all have used a different reference, but I understood it at the time. And he wanted to escort me home. Of course, I refused. No, self-respecting young woman meets a man and immediately says, yes, you may escort me home. But...

Adesoji Iginla (15:25.686)
Napoli and Bunapol.

Adesoji Iginla (15:32.287)
Yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli (15:51.115)
I did exchange information with him. And the next day he came calling to my parents' home. And my parents did oblige us to sit in their parlor and to have a very long and quite varied conversation. was so intellectually stimulating.

Aya Fubara Eneli (16:14.751)
I shared my thoughts and he shared his, and we found a union as intellectuals. And that began this foray, if you will, into the United, into the UNIA. And I say that because as we thought of how to organize and how to implement things.

Aya Fubara Eneli (16:44.511)
to get about achieving this dream of global black independence and interdependence. I had an understanding that we had to start with where we were and with what we had. And so you will see that using my father's influence, we were able to begin to pass out pamphlets, begin to share more information.

about UNIA and those pamphlets as a matter of fact would

serve as a basis for getting information out about what this particular organization was going to be and as a way of recruitment. In fact, let me read from a book called An Efficient Womanhood by Natanya Duncan and she writes,

Aya Fubara Eneli (17:52.287)
A talk with Afro-West Indians called for support for an industrial school that would begin to educate children in accordance with the organization's goals. Notably donations in support of the proposed school and other benevolent programs were to be sent to 121 Orange Street or 34 Child Street, Kingston, Jamaica, the address of Amy Ashwood's parents' home and business respectively. Using her parents' funds,

their place of business and her civic organizations, Ashwood had the pamphlets printed and distributed to both Jamaica's elites and manual laborers. Throughout the organization's infancy, Ashwood spent quite a bit of time battering and leveraging her family connections to get flyers printed, secure travel arrangements for speaking events, set up audiences with potential funding supporters.

and organize like-minded groups to hear Garvey speak.

And so what was Tony Martin saying when he had the girl, although in other ways he was very respectful of me and my contributions, but he actually accused me of over-exaggerating my role in the formation of the UNIA.

Adesoji Iginla (19:14.187)
your

Aya Fubara Eneli (19:21.547)
This is something that must be examined by modern day would-be liberators of the African race because we cannot continue to erase women at will.

Adesoji Iginla (19:37.71)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (19:38.999)
In fact, one of the first articles in the Negro world, which I helped found, asked and answered the question on whether a woman was the intellectual equal of a man.

Adesoji Iginla (19:56.16)
One minute.

Aya Fubara Eneli (19:59.105)
Yeah.

I was instrumental in sketching out the role women would play in the UNIA during its infancy. Remember, I was born in 1897. So at a mere 17 years old, I had the presence of based on my reading, my education, my family experiences to see that there was a different way that women

should be perceived and should open doors to act. My mother was a teacher. My mother, Mondriana Thompson Ashwood, was a teacher.

By 1915, my convictions helped to set a new organizational standard, as seven of the UNIA's 15 board members were women. And this soon-to-be global organization was managed by an equal, nearly equal numbers of men and women from the onset, something unseen, unheard of in any organization

by white people or black people at the time. The partnership model that was first established when me and Garvey shared our aspirations was ingrained in the day-to-day operations of the UNIA and remained a signature characteristic as it expanded. Now we eventually got to a place where we had

Adesoji Iginla (21:19.821)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (21:46.357)
The men's auxiliary? We're at the women's auxiliary.

Aya Fubara Eneli (21:53.227)
People need to study this. And although we may not have known it at the time, that model is an African-centered model.

because as I came to learn in my travels to the continent.

Before we took on the ideas of the colonizers, you basically had what I would, for lack of a better term, separate and co-equal governance in terms of women and men in a society, in most traditional African societies. And the women managed their affairs and the men managed their affairs and then the leadership came together.

to address common issues. So women had their pathways for leadership and men had their pathways for leadership.

Aya Fubara Eneli (22:59.275)
but we can get into the weeds, which are important. But let me just give some broad strokes.

I was very well-read and self-educated through activism and travel.

I moved to the United States in 1918. And of course, that was my period with Marcus Garvey. We met in Jamaica. When he moved to the United States, we continued to correspond. My mother was opposed to any union with that man. She said, what are you going to do with an unemployed man? My father was a successful businessman.

Aya Fubara Eneli (23:47.573)
I also worked in the United Kingdom politically and culturally organizing. I will go into some detail about that. I worked in Liberia. In fact, long after the demise of my, well, marriage, although I maintain I am the only legal wife of Marcus Garvey, I did have an on and off relationship with Sam Manning, the amazing.

Tunidinian calypso musician. But there was a time in Liberia where the president, President Tubman, was very much enamored with me. And he sought to make of me a respectable woman. He proposed marriage.

Aya Fubara Eneli (24:43.167)
And I understand that the UNIA also proposed this idea of, know, somewhat of a politics of respectability, how women should carry themselves and certainly being married and being mothers and taking care of the home and bearing children was very, very important.

Aya Fubara Eneli (25:06.346)
But when I thought of my life and the freedom to come and go as I please, even though that brought about a lot of financial difficulties for me from time to time, I could not imagine subjecting myself again to being just a help mate, the rib of a whole human being, not a whole human being myself. And so,

I politely declined that marriage proposal. But while I was in Liberia, I published the African Journal. I did tell you that I was one of the founders of the Negro world, And of course, a contributing editor to it. In Nigeria, I supported nationalist movements and women's groups. I heard you have talked about Fumilayo Ransomkuti. Well...

Adesoji Iginla (25:48.608)
I won't do that.

Adesoji Iginla (26:01.312)
Thank

Aya Fubara Eneli (26:05.013)
She will tell you the impact that I had on her in London. Perhaps you know some of that story, you can share it. You heard of the woman Claudia Jones? She can also tell you the impact that I had on her as well. I also supported many women's groups in West Africa, all across the Caribbean and in the UK, and even in the United States.

Adesoji Iginla (26:13.281)
You

Adesoji Iginla (26:18.456)
Bloody Junta.

Aya Fubara Eneli (26:34.435)
I was briefly in Ghana, active there during the early independence era. And then I course visited Trinidad and spoke widely across the Caribbean. And you may know that I was one of two women who spoke at the fifth Pan-African Congress and the only one who hosted a committee.

Adesoji Iginla (26:57.878)
in Manchester.

Aya Fubara Eneli (27:03.177)
Some of the organizations I founded or co-founded, of course the Universal Negro Improvement Association, the Florence Mills Social Club. Someone needs to do a whole book on just the Florence Mills Social Club because we created magic in the United Kingdom. But we named that club after

Adesoji Iginla (27:19.534)
Social Club.

Aya Fubara Eneli (27:31.999)
an African American woman who died tragically young, who was an entertainer in the US. You may know about my involvement in the foundation of the International African Friends of Ethiopia, the Nigerian Progress Union. They are the ones who gave me the name Yalo Dey, the Yoruba name.

But there's another form of it, I will tell you, and then Iyar Lode. I was one of the key organizers and supporters of the West African Students Union. You need to go study that organization. Do you know how many?

post-independence leaders came from that group? My son, can you mention some of them for your listeners?

Adesoji Iginla (28:22.776)
as came from that group, yes.

Adesoji Iginla (28:28.782)
So you have Kwame Nkrumah, you have Robert Mugabe, you have, what's his name? my God, his name escapes me now. And I'm the Azekewe, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli (28:41.159)
Namde azikiwe was fat. Yes, yes. And influence goes on. So I actually was pregnant at one time.

Adesoji Iginla (28:54.158)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (28:58.017)
I had the nerve to say it was not his child.

I don't have to argue all of that at this point. What is done is done. But during the time that he left our marriage, moved out within six months of our marriage, though we had courted for five years before that.

Aya Fubara Eneli (29:23.072)
suspected him of cavorting with that other woman.

And, of course my suspicions were proven to be true because no sooner did he supposedly divorce me.

he married her. But while my wedding was very public, he did theirs in a very private way, perhaps out of, I don't know, you can fill in the gaps.

Aya Fubara Eneli (30:00.723)
So supposedly he got the divorce in July of 1922. Yes. In June of that year, I had a miscarriage from the stress. When I went to convalesce with my, I was being taken care of by some of our UNIA members in Canada, I just simply told them that

I had an appendectomy because I was a private woman to some extent.

Of course, Garvey and I, Marcus and I, we were under surveillance by the FBI. I hear you've been studying a lot of women. Have you noticed that almost if not every single woman was under some kind of scrutiny or some attack by some or her body being policed or something by some governmental body?

Adesoji Iginla (30:45.038)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (31:02.006)
Yeah. Correct.

Aya Fubara Eneli (31:06.103)
So the FBI surveilled me and had all kinds of files and things of that nature. It was a very stressful time and I lost that child. I never had any other biological children. But of course, I influenced and had many children in other ways. I also was a founder of the London Afro-Woman Center. We eventually called it the London

people center because I understood the importance of embracing our needs collectively. And although we primarily worked with and served women of African descent, I had allies and people that I worked with who were of other persuasions as long as they were invested in the work that we were trying to do.

Adesoji Iginla (31:58.936)
That's it.

Aya Fubara Eneli (32:05.845)
I also founded the Pan-African Women's Liberation Network. Help to co-found the African, the journal in Liberia.

I edited and wrote for the African. I contributed to the Negro world and other Pan-African journals. As I said in 1945, I delivered that keynote address at the Fifth Pan-African Congress and I brought women squarely into the conversation, speaking particularly about the needs of Jamaican women.

Aya Fubara Eneli (32:44.777)
I also talked, you know, provided talks, conversations, speeches on Black women's leadership, decolonization, Pan-Africanism, and African unity.

So how could I have supported myself through some of these things that I was trying to do? Well, again, this is a portion of my life that most of you may not know, but I'm very glad to share with you and excited to invite you to even go further and research some more. So I used to write plays.

Aya Fubara Eneli (33:28.047)
And my first play was called, well, it was my first critically acclaimed and financially successful play, was called Hey Hey. This was in 1926. The play's plot centered on the misadventures of two men, black men, of course, who are put out of their homes by their wives.

Adesoji Iginla (33:38.275)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (33:56.265)
and they decide to go to Africa to find women who match their rib. When they arrive in Africa, they find their rib mates who turn out to be the wives who put them out in the first place. The point I was trying to make is that while our troubles have taken us all across the globe,

Adesoji Iginla (34:01.187)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (34:23.851)
When you return to the life giver, mother Africa, that is where you find truth. That is where you find happiness. That is where you find peace. And that is where you are able, grounded in that culture to recognize and reclaim what you've been searching for, which was there all the time. So you always had this woman.

and you saw them as your enemy or did they not play their helpmate role because you had a skewed way of looking at them and looking at yourself. Well, I was clear about whom I wished my play to speak for and two,

It was later that play was later revamped with 25 characters. It traveled all across after the United States after a very successful run in Harlem. And after Hey Hey, I then had another play called Do That Thing. I don't know whether that's where Spike Lee got the idea for Do The Right Thing. I don't know, maybe.

Adesoji Iginla (35:37.056)
I think you got it, yeah. You it right then, yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli (35:43.209)
And then I wrote a play called Brown Sugar. And I think you people have a movie called Brown Sugar now. That was in 1927. And then I wrote another production called Black Magic.

Adesoji Iginla (35:51.298)
You're good. Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (36:04.979)
On the hills of Heihei, my next play was slated for Broadway booking, after which the play would tour South and Central America as well as Cuba.

I could tell you more about this place, let me leave something for you to go and research yourself. But it was important that I find ways to take care of myself because our divorce, as he claims, because I'm still the one and only legal wife, was so acrimonious. This man accused me of everything. When he was finally accused of embezzlement,

Adesoji Iginla (36:22.798)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (36:46.827)
They wanted to pin everything on me.

What a sad day. And then there were stories planted about my infidelity and how I may have had another lover in Panama and the child wasn't his. So the very organization that I helped found and established

I was for all intents and purposes excommunicated from. I was the secretary of the UNIA when it started. I was one of the directors of the Black Star Line, which I helped to put together. Understand again my background, watching my father as a successful businessman, and then understand Marcus Gardy's background. Now he was a brilliant man, but as Ethan

the second Amy came to realize much of what is being attributed to Marcus right now came from me and her.

Adesoji Iginla (37:52.492)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (37:54.475)
And of course later in life, she had to leave that man alone when he carried on with some other secretaries if you ask me. But she was once a secretary so she should know. So when he moved to UK, she stayed back in Jamaica with her children. But let me stop talking about her because she has enough issues and maybe she'll tell her own story. So I eventually moved to the UK.

Adesoji Iginla (38:05.774)
.

Aya Fubara Eneli (38:21.783)
And like I said, there were many things that I found while I was there. Let me pause because I've been talking for a while. Is there anything that you would like to say or add? Things that you have heard.

Adesoji Iginla (38:31.766)
Yes. So for me, the standout position is the fact that a woman at that particular point in time was so prominent in the decolonization efforts of the African countries and the Caribbean stands out in that moment in time. We're talking about the 1940s now. And so for me, the question would be, what was it like?

standing in that space in that time, you know, amongst men who clearly because you made a statement and the statement was I bring it to I'll make it known that despite the fact that you are multiple men in here, let's not confine the women to the social position of child bearer.

Because whilst you chaired the first session of the Pan African Congress in Manchester, it would have done on them that if they looked around, the women were, you know, they were scant. So but here was a prominent voice that was calling them into action. So for the question is, what sort of feeling were you running through at that particular point in time?

Aya Fubara Eneli (40:02.091)
I will not romanticize that time. It's important for women today to understand that a liberation requires sacrifice and some of those battles are fought internally. And I felt very isolated. I had quite a few financial difficulties. As a woman moving around freely in a man's world,

There were so many rumors and, you know, commentary to kind of disparage who I was and my character. It was very lonely sometimes. Both in the sense of, you know, men not wanting to necessarily make space, but also women who saw me as somewhat of a threat to what...

you know, some idealized womanhood should look like. So they were not easy times, but I stayed focused on my work. And that was why even when I did have suitors who would make me respectable, I clung to my commitment to the work of our liberation without the tethers.

without the tethers of marriage. You know, you know, with my place, you've heard of Oscar Michele?

Adesoji Iginla (41:39.441)
no.

Aya Fubara Eneli (41:40.713)
Oscar Michaux, he's like the, if you talk about American cinematography and you talk about black directors, Oscar Michaux has to be at the top of that list. My place caught his eye. He felt that I fired the imagination of the masses in this country during that time. That's precisely what he said.

Aya Fubara Eneli (42:12.623)
He, you know, people who were not, who wanted to give me my due recognized my role as an efficient womanhood bridge builder. And that with those plays and with everything else I did in my life, I was laying out and advancing the UNIA's goals and its dual gender nationalist program for wider

audiences to absorb. That was something that I repeatedly worked on. I was very sensitive to the voice of the diaspora. So much so that in my play Brown Sugar, I took audiences across oceans and continents in a tale about a beautiful brown-skinned young lady and her suitors. The young woman

had to choose between a mechanic and a rich prince from India. You know the work we did in laying down this duality of roles, if you will, in UNIA influenced movements in Africa, in India, across the Caribbean. You know that when you talk about a pan-Africanist organization.

the UNIA, bar none, it's the most successful one. It had branches all across the globe. Now, bounded by the overarching UNIA goals, but obviously there would be local politics and issues that would impact how each one would operate. But,

Adesoji Iginla (43:51.16)
Correct.

Adesoji Iginla (43:59.864)
Yeah.

Right there.

Aya Fubara Eneli (44:08.439)
I continue to infuse in my work an element of the UNIA brand of activism, decrying colorism. know, you know, W.E.B. Du Bois.

Adesoji Iginla (44:25.697)
Yep.

Aya Fubara Eneli (44:27.913)
You know what he called, Marcus?

Adesoji Iginla (44:32.078)
Yes, yes, some very unprintable words. Yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli (44:38.615)
So this colorism thing was real. Again, any of you who are curious, you can go look it up. I don't want to repeat those words.

Adesoji Iginla (44:46.094)
Exactly.

Aya Fubara Eneli (44:49.537)
But always I emphasize the distinction, the distinct contributions of women and how they must not be overlooked. Now, one of the things that I also ended up doing was with the West Indian Life, having a lens on West Indian Life in the UK, we had the publication of a weekly newspaper.

to increase the voices heard from the Caribbean, we launched West Indian Times and American Review. When I say we, that was me and Sam Manning. My intention, though again short-lived, it was just two years because it takes time to bring people along, was to serve as a bridge between the West Indians and the

black people in the UK to get a better understanding of our commonality, right? Of course, I enjoyed partnerships with several pan-Africanist leaders. Leaders, yes, yes. When I went to Jamaica for a while, I was in Nigeria for a while.

Adesoji Iginla (45:56.663)
Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (46:06.36)
You're more than a hair tie.

Aya Fubara Eneli (46:16.021)
And that was when the Nigerian Progress Union gave me Adeyola, which like I said, Iyalode, it was like the first one meaning the crown brings honor, right? In Yoruba, right. And then Iyalode is a title to communicate, as you know, the highest honor of respect and admiration.

Adesoji Iginla (46:31.502)
Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (46:42.85)
on

Aya Fubara Eneli (46:46.803)
According to, you may have heard of Ladigbo Solanke, the word has no English equivalent. Its literal translation, I guess, could be like queen of ladies is what he said. But it was reserved for those women who had come and been distinguished and served in their community. Through my association with the Nigerian Progress Union,

That's how the West African Students Union was formed. I reasoned that Mr. Garvey's idea of an African kingdom was a geographic blunder. You know, again, always I upheld the original goals of the UNIA. But although we may have

Aya Fubara Eneli (47:40.551)
very noteworthy and goals that we should pursue, our personalities and our egos can get in the way. And that is also something important for would-be leaders to study so that they can maybe curb those tendencies in themselves. So I said this, I wrote this.

Adesoji Iginla (47:54.934)
Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (48:09.759)
Mr. Garvey's idea of an African kingdom was a geographic blunder. There are too many tribes, each differing from the other in custom, so that it is quite impossible to form them into one single people. Perhaps some writers now may disagree with me. What is more, they want no Afro-Americans or West Indians as rulers over them.

They want no kings or dukes or earls created over here sent there. I would like to be quite fair to Mr. Garvey, though he has done one thing. He has awakened the race consciousness of the Negro and created the desire in him to raise his status. So again, as we study these things, even though I had a thing with the president of Liberia,

Adesoji Iginla (49:01.218)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (49:08.949)
This idea that some of us, because we have spent more time in closer proximity to white people, should now go and lord it over the rest of our black brothers and sisters, African brothers and sisters, must be reconsidered. Okay. And so I continue to give lectures, of course, the end of my life.

on the unity amongst the descendants of all African people, wherever we find ourselves. Some of you may know that I opened a restaurant. You didn't know this about me. I'm an intellectual, I'm an activist, I'm a playwright, I'm a producer, I'm a writer, I'm a restaurateur, I was a social worker in the real sense of the word, of course, an organizer. Why do I say all these things?

Adesoji Iginla (49:50.964)
Yep, yep, yep.

Aya Fubara Eneli (50:07.785)
Not to be boastful.

but to give anyone who is seeking permission to be everything that they possibly can.

Adesoji Iginla (50:18.296)
the world to do. Yes, yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli (50:21.355)
Who says you have to be limited to one thing or the other? So in 1936, I opened a restaurant at 50 Carnaby Street in Soho, London called the Florence Mills. You know, people like CLR James, they said if you wanted to go anywhere and get a good West Indian meal,

Adesoji Iginla (50:34.286)
Thank

Adesoji Iginla (50:49.332)
Mayo, yeah, gonna be street.

Aya Fubara Eneli (50:51.177)
And being in a space where you're respected, that's where you had to be. and the music. But you know what it did? In creating that social hub.

Adesoji Iginla (50:56.652)
and every strip.

Aya Fubara Eneli (51:06.977)
We also created a space for conversations and for activism and for the exchange of ideas. This is where, so talking about being an efficient woman and bridge building, this is where race intellectuals from all part of the world would gather over plates of Caribbean cuisine and music of the continent and the Caribbean pan-Africanists such as George Padmore, C.L.R. James.

Eric Williams, they met there, they debated strategies and politics in front of students. Students didn't have to go and pay to see them speak anywhere. They were right there. Literally and figuratively picking up the intellectual crumbs of these great men and women. All the dinner guests we had. It was amazing. It was intergenerational.

Adesoji Iginla (51:46.446)
You

Adesoji Iginla (51:54.094)
for free.

Aya Fubara Eneli (52:05.387)
multi-ethnic and it was dual gendered. A space that actually mirrored the stated goals of the UNIA. I never left the movement. I was always not just a founder, but till my dying breath.

organizer and a proponent of the course.

You know I was heralded in the Gold Coast as a mother of African and West Indian students?

Adesoji Iginla (52:40.802)
the could be in Ghana.

Aya Fubara Eneli (52:41.217)
Those students, yes, those students went back and they told of the place of comfort, not to mention of course, the hostel that I created. They're pictures of me speaking out.

during the Italian assault on our brothers and sisters in Ethiopia. Speaking out about that.

Adesoji Iginla (53:01.826)
Mmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (53:08.087)
in conjunction with the International African Friends of Abyssinia. I was one of the first members of the group and was on hand to greet Emperor Haile Selassie when he arrived as a refugee in England in 1936. I'm telling you the connections.

Aya Fubara Eneli (53:35.893)
Yes, I spoke in Trafalgar Square about this. I admonished imperial powers for claiming that Africans were brought from homelands to Christianize them. But the only thing Christianity did was to give us 300 and more years of enslavement. I challenged publicly the British government. Now you all cower.

Adesoji Iginla (53:39.854)
Mm-hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (54:05.971)
All hail the what do you have king queen? don't know who you have now See, clr james lauded me as a militant anti-imperialist a woman of tremendous force of personality Perhaps it is that force of personality that doomed my marriage Because marcus was looking for a rib and I was looking to be a co-equal

Adesoji Iginla (54:10.178)
King Charles III.

Aya Fubara Eneli (54:34.784)
partner in everything.

Whether in the Caribbean, in England, or on the African continent, I spoke out and I talked about my commitment to the goals of the UNIA, as well as expanding on them. Between 1943 and 1945, I opposed the male gender biased recruitment of seasonal labor in the United States. And I took specific exception.

to the exclusion of Jamaican women and West Indian women in that recruitment effort.

Aya Fubara Eneli (55:17.931)
First, I flew to the United States on a non-immigrant medical visa for an allegedly necessary surgery.

Second, on the heels of my trip to the United States, I launched a campaign for a seat in the Jamaican House of Representatives where I ran on the Jamaica Democratic Party ticket.

Aya Fubara Eneli (55:46.025)
Many people have here and there talked about me. There are a few books that have been written about me. But when I was in Washington, D.C., I was given an audience by the Anglo-American Caribbean Commission and the State Department.

Aya Fubara Eneli (56:08.809)
My childhood and adolescence in the Panama Canal Zone made me particularly sensitive to the need for women to have assurances of gainful and fair paid employment. And I addressed this issue before 1200 Jamaican farm workers in Connecticut back then.

We're at the Jamaican farm workers today. Someone needs to go and figure out what has happened.

Adesoji Iginla (56:43.854)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (56:47.133)
I could go on and on, but let me share with you just some of the books that have been written for those of you who might want to do some more investigation of your own. There's a young lady who is deeply in love with me right now and I'm very grateful for her. Although there are others who've also written about me in different journals, but

Nidia Swabie has written the most recent book on me. I feel it's a fairer book than the one Tony Martin wrote. Tony Martin wrote and published a book, Amy Ashwood Garvey, Pan-Africanist, Feminist, and Wife Number One. Of course, he also wrote Race First. Tajuddin Abdul Rahim published a book called

Adesoji Iginla (57:26.766)
Thanks.

Aya Fubara Eneli (57:43.755)
Pan-Africanism, Political Philosophy, and Socioeconomic Anthropology for African Liberation, which includes some of my work. Of course, the paper is edited by Robert A. Hill, the Marcus Garvey and United Negro Improvement Association papers, rightfully include information on me. Gerda Lerner wrote a book called Black Women in White America.

Carol Boyce Davis book on Claudia Jones Beyond Containment Lionel Yard this one is a harder book to find he was a confidant of mine had most of my papers my personal papers he was instrumental in getting some of those papers some of them are in the Schomburg some of them are in Jamaica and you can also go to Ghana

Adesoji Iginla (58:21.294)
Thank you.

Aya Fubara Eneli (58:43.249)
and find some information and papers on me as well. But Lionel Yard wrote a book, Biography of Amy Ashwood Garvey, 1897 to 1969, which was the year that I made my transition. And he, the subtitle of the book is, Co-Founder of the Universal Negro Improvement Association. But let me tell you, when I tell this story about being excommunicated,

Adesoji Iginla (58:47.212)
Welcome to London.

Aya Fubara Eneli (59:12.245)
I was not the only one.

There is another individual that you might want to look at as well.

She came from Africa as a matter of fact. Her name was Adorkor Koffi. A-D-O-R-K-O-R. Last name K-O-F-F-E-Y. She held no official UNIA office, but she demonstrated a style of leadership. was a spiritual woman.

that electrified people and she was so instrumental in recruiting more members to the UNIA.

But after a while, Marcus Garvey felt like she was overshadowing him, at least in that area, that part where she was. And so he started a violent verbal campaign against her.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:00:25.109)
And you know what happened to her?

She was assassinated as she spoke from the pulpit. She had a church, a large gathering of people. She was shot in the head. And the person who they believed, she had been very instrumental in the Black Cross nurses, which was the female auxiliary, the ladies auxiliary of the UNIA. The crowd seized upon the person accused of shooting her and killing her.

and they beat that person to death right there and then. Where else have we seen this play out? When now known as Minister Louis Farrakhan and Elijah Mohammed created a very toxic environment verbally for Malcolm X and he too was assassinated.

Adesoji Iginla (01:01:06.51)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (01:01:12.204)
Moogle mix.

Adesoji Iginla (01:01:20.396)
Yeah, Campino, yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (01:01:25.355)
Matthew.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:01:27.231)
you might want to go look that up and understand how isolated they try to make me. So I appreciate Lionel Yard for acknowledging me as a co-founder of the UNIA. Of course, there are documentaries that mention me somewhat. Marcus Garvey, Look for Me in the Whirlwind, that was done by PBS.

Adesoji Iginla (01:01:44.11)
Thank

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:01:55.735)
There's one on a 100 Great Black Britons, that includes me. The Garvey's Pan-African Prophets done by the BBC. And Basil Davidson did one called Africa, the story of a continent.

Adesoji Iginla (01:02:12.021)
Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:02:14.471)
One of my quotes from the Pan-African Congress, I said, I do not believe that any race or nation can rise without the active, determined, and militant participation of its women. Hear me, the active, determined,

and militant. Don't, don't, don't relegate us too.

just child bearers. That is important. It's very important. But that is not all. Of course, the FBI maintained that I had radical connections, tried to curtail my ability to secure funding and to travel freely. And not to be outdone, the M15, the British intelligence service, monitored my club activities and political associations.

Adesoji Iginla (01:02:52.974)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:03:18.953)
labeling me a subversive agitator. All of this surveillance, of course, had a chilling effect because people had to be very careful about associating with me. So I will stop there at this time.

Adesoji Iginla (01:03:30.126)
not a suitor.

Adesoji Iginla (01:03:36.75)
She also gets a mention in Hakeem Abdi's Pan-Africanism A History. Yeah, yeah, Yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:03:42.417)
yes, Adi did a great job of talking about me. Yes he did. Yes he did. Yes he did.

Adesoji Iginla (01:03:51.118)
Yes, there's one question before we close out. You've spoken about your role in setting up all these organizations and the need, the reason behind having said organizations. The question is, if we look back now, why is it that some of those organizations are no longer existing?

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:04:04.534)
Yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:04:11.383)
Mm-hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:04:23.733)
Well, you know, just like the waters, things ebb and flow.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:04:33.557)
I think this inability yet for us to effectively grapple with.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:04:44.649)
the gender line as opposed to Du Bois the color line. So our internal politics as African people.

has.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:04:59.483)
served to erase the role of working class people, the kind of agency and power that they have to bring about change. It has served to constrain women and the role they play. And when you do not have this continuity of memory,

then it's easy to buy into internal and external forces that will have us so tied up in just survival that we do not recognize the forces.

Adesoji Iginla (01:05:39.534)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:05:50.375)
that would rather we stay disorganized. It is not perchance. There's no... I mean, why are we all under surveillance? Because they do not want us to be organized, to be united. So there's always this overarching imperialism...

Adesoji Iginla (01:06:07.212)
Hmm... True?

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:06:16.503)
white really fragility, their fear, they want to call it supremacy, but it is their fear that causes them to mount a consistent attack on us unifying. Where we are not aware of that, then we're more likely to succumb to little petty squabbles that then cause us to fall apart.

Imagine if we were able to build on the structure of the UNIA that was established in the 20s and 30s. And if we continued that conversation about the need for our unity across all of the areas where we had those groupings.

Adesoji Iginla (01:06:55.405)
Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (01:07:09.708)
But group ends here.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:07:12.509)
what would we look like today? But you know we get a little independence here, a little one person becomes a millionaire, a little job title here and you suddenly start to ride a wave of individualism and assimilation that tears at the fabric of the unity and every man woman for him or herself. So we need to study

understand that there will always be agents operating within and without to keep us disunified and we must go back and rebuild on some of those foundations that are still in existence. There's still UNIA groups in different areas but how do we continue that in

Adesoji Iginla (01:07:51.758)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (01:08:05.112)
Correct. Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:08:11.581)
intergenerational conversation. I was a middle-aged woman when these young African students embraced me because I recognized their brilliance and made room. So what are the elders doing? What are the young people doing? Do you think you know it all or are you willing to also listen?

But we were so young when we started the UNIA. Let no young person feel that they are not yet equipped to get started. But they must also be as disciplined as we were. We studied and we studied beyond, I need to get an A in a class to get a job. We studied because we wanted the understanding so we could move ourselves forward.

Adesoji Iginla (01:08:48.27)
and it's, yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (01:09:06.094)
Yes, speaking of moving ourselves forward, we have come to the end of.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:09:17.5)
hold on.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:09:22.783)
What an affront and no way to talk to your elder. One of your viewers said was this the first Amy because she was a drunken screwball.

Adesoji Iginla (01:09:39.278)
Yes, I actually deleted that on the main chat. Sometimes...

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:09:50.399)
But but such are the ways that again we erase people because let me ask you this.

Adesoji Iginla (01:09:59.022)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:10:01.458)
even if

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:10:05.683)
I wear to concede, and I'm not, but even if I wear to concede that I was an alcoholic.

does that negate all of the work that I did? And why would you lead with that as opposed to my considerable influence and lasting impact?

Adesoji Iginla (01:10:17.326)
you get.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:10:35.869)
This is the nature of what I lived through and the nature of what continues to constrain us in our quest for liberty. Can a sex worker be part of our liberation? Or will we disparage the person and strip them of their humanity? Can a drug addict recovered or still caught in the throes?

Adesoji Iginla (01:10:52.225)
Of course.

Adesoji Iginla (01:11:04.814)
Contribute.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:11:05.515)
How dare you?

Adesoji Iginla (01:11:09.772)
Well, we have to be mindful of the fact that in this day and age, every idiocy has been democratized. every man has an opinion. And whether we like it or not, they would come in and from time to time share their idiocy. But the problem is

Half of the time, people just run with the most convenient narrative that doesn't allow, that doesn't challenge any preconceived notion. And so you will see there are strings of comments from that same person. But then I was mindful that that was not going to derail what the overall conversation is, even though we know that not to be true. But the fact that it's out there.

Somebody might run with it, but it's been taken off the internet. So we live for another day. We have to live on a very cheerful note. So do you have any lasting thoughts?

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:12:18.154)
Yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:12:30.921)
Interestingly enough, the words that come to mind

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:12:38.753)
were spoken very eloquently by my husband.

Arise, you mighty race!

you will accomplish what you will. And that remains true and that was part of everything that I did. I lived that out across continents and it is my enduring hope.

that the children of mother Africa.

will return to their roots, will unify, and will rise up.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:13:20.887)
Thank you.

Adesoji Iginla (01:13:22.926)
Thank you. on that inspiring note, we would look forward to having everyone back next week when we do, in your words, the other woman, Amy Jack Gavi, and

It just goes to show that the nature of the kind of lives we live sometimes might not be everybody's cup of tea, but still everyone's humanity still has to be respected. And on that humane note, would say join us next week for another episode of Women and Resistance. And for this week, it's been a pleasure having you.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:14:00.095)
Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (01:14:17.174)
And thank you all for coming and until next week, good night for now.