EP 11 Amy Jacques Garvey - Writing Pan Africanism I Women And Resistance 🌍

This conversation explores the life and legacy of Amy Jack Garvey, a prominent figure in the Universal Negro Improvement Association (UNIA) and the wife of Marcus Garvey. 

The discussion covers her early life, education, activism, and the challenges she faced as a woman in a male-dominated movement. 

It highlights her contributions to the UNIA, her reflections on gender roles, and the impact of Garveyism on black empowerment. 

The conversation concludes with her thoughts on the importance of learning history and the need for continued activism.

Takeaways

*Amy Jack Garvey was a significant figure in the UNIA.
*She faced challenges as a woman in a male-dominated movement.
*Garveyism emphasised the importance of black empowerment.
*Education played a crucial role in her activism.
*She reflected on the impact of colorism in society.
*Garvey's deportation affected her personal and professional life.
*She advocated for women's leadership in the movement.
*Her writings preserved the intellectual foundation of Garveyism.
*The legacy of Garveyism continues to influence modern activism.
*Unity among black people is essential for liberation.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Amy Jack Garvey
01:23 Early Life and Education
05:07 Migration to the United States
06:19 Connection with Marcus Garvey
07:49 Marriage and Personal Struggles
09:07 UNIA and Political Activism
12:11 The Fight Against Colonialism
16:38 Liberia and Economic Development
19:23 The Role of Women in the Movement
26:25 Personal Contributions and Legacy
33:34 Naming and Legacy: The Significance of Names
34:09 Understanding Conditioning and Power Dynamics
34:52 Financial Struggles and Personal Sacrifices
36:38 The Burden of Leadership and Lifestyle Choices
38:07 Navigating Marriage and Personal Identity
39:52 Single Motherhood and Financial Hardships
41:10 Reflections on Love and Relationships
42:03 Separation and the Role of a Single Mother
43:19 Activism and Legacy After Loss
44:53 Continuing the Fight for Justice and Recognition
46:29 The Role of Women in Historical Movements
48:12 Challenges of Gender Dynamics in Activism
50:01 Lessons from History and the Path Forward
51:45 The Importance of Education and Awareness
53:13 Building Pan-African Frameworks and Unity
54:48 The Need for Critical Thinking and Informed Decisions
56:23 Writing as a Tool for Change and Legacy
58:06 Final Thoughts and Future Directions

Welcome  to Women and Resistance, a powerful podcast where we honour the courage, resilience, and revolutionary spirit of women across the globe. Hosted by Aya Fubara Eneli Esq and Adesoji Iginla...

You're listening to Women and Resistance with Aya Fubara Eneli Esq and Adesoji Iginla—where we honour the voices of women who have shaped history through courage and defiance...Now, back to the conversation.

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Transcript

Adesoji Iginla (00:04.174)
we good?

Can see it? Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (00:15.362)
Greetings and welcome to another episode of.

I just said, welcome to another episode of Women and Resistance. We've had technical issues and hopefully we're not having any other. And I am your host, Adesaji Ginla, and with me as usual is Aya Fubera in ALS Choir. And tonight we're looking at the lives and times of Amy Jack Gavie. And welcome.

Aya Fubara Eneli (00:51.088)
Thank you.

Adesoji Iginla (00:52.094)
Yeah, so first question would be, who was Amy Jagav?

Aya Fubara Eneli (00:59.43)
Well, it's a simple enough question, it's one that you don't quite frequently get asked in that way. Who are you? How do you start describing what you look like? Or what do you say? But I will try to give you some background information about who I was, what I did. Because when you study things, you...

want to study them in context, you want to understand the culture and the other things that were happening even geopolitically that could have been impactful you know because none of us really exists in a bubble right so I was born into a middle class to upper middle class family in Jamaica and I was born on December 31st 1895.

Adesoji Iginla (01:53.367)
Okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:59.282)
and my father was a printer, very, very well-to-do man. My mother, my father was George Samuel Jack, and my mother was Charlotte Henrietta Jack, and she was very well-educated. My mother happened to be of mixed race.

So she had a black and Scottish, a white parent as well. And I was raised in a middle class, in this middle class mixed family where, as I will tell you later, color was very important, but also your pedigree, your upbringing was also very important. I attended St. Patrick's School. My father was a staunch Anglican.

And then I also attended the Deaconess Home School. It's now called St. Hughes High School. And I also attended the Walmart Girl School. I was very well educated for women, girls of my time. And this was to come in handy because unfortunately, my father passed away when I was still a young girl.

but I was able to parlay my education to work for a law firm. I did legal work and helped to sustain myself and my family. Although my father had been such an astute businessman that he had built up his estate where he left an inheritance for my mother and for...

Adesoji Iginla (03:34.862)
Okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli (03:53.21)
his children, including me. So I worked in this legal office, developing administrative and analytical skills that I believe were very impactful in the work that I was later to do, which of course I did not know I would do at that time. Well, it so happens that there was a young man,

Adesoji Iginla (03:55.479)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (04:07.158)
input.

Aya Fubara Eneli (04:20.312)
named Marcus Garvey, Marcus Mosiah Garvey, who was also from Jamaica. I didn't know any odd thing of him when I lived in Jamaica. It's quite possible that because, you know, and understand the context when I say this, because we did not come from the same pedigree. He did not come from the same kind of family. He did not have the same kind of fortunes or even a career path.

like what I and those of my, what I say, those in my social strata, if you will, had. And so I did not make acquaintance of him in Jamaica like Amy Ashwood did. Of course, you know that Marcus Garvey was much darker skin than I am. And I'll tell you a quick story. I digress really quickly to tell you this quick story. So,

Adesoji Iginla (04:56.376)
class.

Aya Fubara Eneli (05:18.82)
This was after we had returned from the US to Jamaica and I had our two sons and I was pushing one of our sons in the pram. I don't know what term you call it in the UK or in the US, but you know you have the baby in the thing and you push them. Okay. I think the Americans call it a stroller. Okay. So an old classmate who hadn't seen me in so long.

Adesoji Iginla (05:32.814)
Let's push it. Yeah, the pusher.

Adesoji Iginla (05:41.294)
stroller.

Aya Fubara Eneli (05:48.196)
She saw me as we were both walking and she greeted me warmly and we were catching up on the side of the road and she says, but who's the, who's black baby is this that you are pushing around? Because Julius took after his father's complexion. And in that instant, I was reminded of the colorism issues we had then that still unfortunately persist till today.

Adesoji Iginla (06:16.398)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (06:18.232)
At any rate, in 1917, I was part of a wave of West Indians and specifically Jamaicans who were moving from Jamaica to the United States. I took a three month leave from my job and I said, I'm going to visit the United States of America and if things don't work out, I will be back.

Adesoji Iginla (06:46.222)
Okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli (06:47.834)
But when I got there, I happened to...

attend a program and the speaker was Marcus Mosiah Garvey and my goodness what a captivating speaker he was and what he was talking about absolutely was something that lit a fire in me. He was talking along the lines of things that I had thought myself

but didn't quite have an avenue to express it. And now, Amy Ashwood will tell the story that I had fallen on hard times while I was in the US and I had been evicted from my apartment and that she's the one who introduced me to Marcus and he felt sorry for me and gave me a job.

as a personal assistant to Amy Ashwood. I tell a slightly different story, but nonetheless, Mr. Garvey, Marcus came to see that I had some skills that could be beneficial to his wife and to the movement, the UNIA. And so...

He did hire me as her assistant and we did become friends. In fact, I will put it out because I know that there's some of your listeners who might want to bring this up as an issue. I was actually a bridesmaid in her marriage to the honorable Marcus Garvey in 1919. And it is not for me to say,

Adesoji Iginla (08:37.526)
Interesting.

Aya Fubara Eneli (08:45.262)
what did or did not happen with their union. I had nothing to do with it. I was very fastidious with the work that I had been assigned to do, but it soon became clear to those of us in the inner circle that all was not well with the marriage. And by 1920, Mr. Garvey had moved out of their marital home.

Of course, Amy Ashwood accused me of being the cause of their problems. And that accusation does not even warrant a response on my part. Needless to say, Marcus Garvey and I, after the annulment of their marriage, did eventually marry in 1922.

and, unfortunately, Amy Ashwood continued to contend that she was the legal wife. She actually tried to get my marriage to Marcus, annulled, but of course I was his legal wife and remained so until my death. a matter of fact, I transitioned on the 51st.

anniversary of our wedding. So on the same date that we got married 51 years later was the day that I made my transition. But just a little bit more about me. I think what might be helpful is to share some excerpts from an interview. The last major interview that I did was with

Adesoji Iginla (10:15.97)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (10:26.647)
Okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli (10:38.294)
a delightful young man, Emery J. Tolbert, who was writing a dissertation on the UNIA. And he came to spend time with me and he included quite a bit of our interview in his dissertation that eventually became published. And so I think it's helpful as you try to understand who I am.

Adesoji Iginla (10:47.8)
Mm-hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (11:06.75)
and what I stood for and continue to stand for to hear my own words as I spoke them myself. So.

Adesoji Iginla (11:19.158)
Is this great?

Aya Fubara Eneli (11:23.728)
There were two petitions, one in 1922, the year we got married, and one in 1929, to the then League of Nations, asking that the organization, through its convention, give a mandate to the UNIA over the former German colonies of Southwest Africa.

Adesoji Iginla (11:52.62)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (11:55.62)
The Persian delegate presented the petition on behalf of the UNIA because the UNIA wasn't a government and had not the privilege of presenting their own petition under the regulations governing the League of Nations. When the officials of the League of Nations saw that the thing had to be received and the far-reaching effects

that it would have in breaking down this imperialism and African colonial rule. They changed the regulation governing the presentation of petitions to the League.

so that when the petition went back again, the ruling was that the petition would have to come through the country from which the people who presented it originated, thereby killing the whole thing. I hope you're understanding what I'm saying.

Adesoji Iginla (12:54.464)
Yes, yes, yes, yes. So which means the petitioners would have had to been born or in descendants of Namibia, which is what is now known. So but quick question prior to that is, were they aware of the massacre in Namibia at that time?

Aya Fubara Eneli (13:18.328)
Of course we kept touch with all things happening to Africans across the globe. You must know that the UNIA to date is the most successful pan-Africanist organization that has existed. We had members in every major continent.

Adesoji Iginla (13:25.922)
Mm-hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (13:46.86)
So yes, we were aware and what we were looking to do was for black people, African people to be in charge of their own affairs. So we do not need Germany to colonize our people if the issue is that they lack ability to self-govern.

then we other black people can go and assist with that. Now I know some of you will have some reservations because we see what happened in Liberia and that do I have a story to tell you about Liberia? But let me read a little bit more and then I will tell you that story. Remind me if I forget my son.

Aya Fubara Eneli (14:40.62)
Always remember that white superiority is not just in America crushing the black minority. It is an international, closely-knots system born, I think, of the fear of the white people that if they give the black people all over the world a chance to develop by

themselves and for themselves. They would be in jeopardy.

Adesoji Iginla (15:14.606)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (15:17.478)
exemplified by the fact that after these wars where they fought among themselves, both the Asians and the Africans and the people in the diaspora have come into their own to speak. Not fully, but at least they have made big steps forward. Today at the United Nations you have, this was back in 1973, I was saying this,

You have 40 black states represented. That is a demonstration of Garvey's goal for black people, you see. Black nationhood. Africa redeemed. Almost all of it has been redeemed. And what isn't redeemed now is being fought for to be redeemed. So therefore, the prophet has come into his own

Adesoji Iginla (15:54.766)
Okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli (16:16.132)
and the activist work is being carried on by others. The ideals of the UNIA never died. So let me quickly tell you this story about Liberia.

Adesoji Iginla (16:21.59)
Okay.

Adesoji Iginla (16:29.218)
I need it okay

Aya Fubara Eneli (16:31.984)
From 1920, Garvey, my husband, sent a commissioner to explore conditions in Liberia. Because at this time, Liberia was in debt and the American government refused to loan any more money to Liberia. You might want to pause and ask, was the country already in debt and to whom?

Adesoji Iginla (16:58.734)
Good question. Please proceed.

Aya Fubara Eneli (17:07.342)
The American librarians did nothing really to develop the resources of the country. So I'm talking about those black Americans who migrated to to Liberia. So Garvey sent a mission because the idea was how do we develop the resources to make the economy viable?

Adesoji Iginla (17:20.61)
library.

Aya Fubara Eneli (17:35.524)
The commissioner negotiated and went over the cities located where mining could be done because of coal and agriculture. there was so much wild rubber without even being cultivated. It was all over the place. There was so much cultivating to be done in the food line because that's important in feeding the nation. You see?

Adesoji Iginla (18:01.855)
Sure, correct.

Aya Fubara Eneli (18:05.026)
So some experts were sent over and President King of Liberia himself organized the whole committee to meet with him. We said to the members of UNIA, nobody was allowed to move to repatriate to become a pioneer in Liberia unless he had some skill, some education or some money.

so that he could start and develop something. Africa did not need another hungry mouse. Africa needed people who would come and do the work.

Adesoji Iginla (18:45.39)
Mmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (18:47.418)
So everything was properly organized. And of course, by the time 1924 came, we had bought a ship. The UNIA had bought a ship. And I want to say right here now that the whole slander and slogan about back to Africa was a slander on the movement because Garvey often said, some of you here in America and the West Indies are no...

damned good to the places where you live. You're no damned good to yourselves. Who wants you in Africa? The idea was to develop Africa, not to have a bunch of tramps going to lay down under a tree and not work. So it was no back to Africa, no mass migration at all. In fact, that is impractical and stupid. Garby was not an impractical man.

He's not a stupid man. He's a realist, you understand? And the man who saw the future and planned for it. So he talked with the king. We had the committee, a ship was bought, resources put together. And when we now went back to finalize the plans with the king in Liberia, do you know what he did? Would you like to know what he did?

Adesoji Iginla (20:15.041)
Yes, please.

Aya Fubara Eneli (20:18.288)
France was concerned about this act of unity. The United States was concerned. Many of these Western countries were concerned. So Firestone, Mr. Firestone went to Liberia.

Adesoji Iginla (20:42.894)
Okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli (20:44.128)
And the librarian leader took those very ideas that a committee we had jointly set up had come up with with experts and all of that. And he leased one million acres of land to Firestone.

for them to extract as much rubber as they want to and treat the people any kind of way that they saw fit? And do you know the price that an African leader, after snubbing his nose at another African who would have developed for us?

Adesoji Iginla (21:22.446)
you

Aya Fubara Eneli (21:39.814)
us doing for ourselves. Do you know how much that lease agreement was? One million acres leased for 99 years at, hold on while I say this, leased at six cents an acre for 99 years.

Firestone walked into Liberia as a white man and negotiated with our own brother to lease a million acres of our land. Understand that people were displaced from that land. People did not grow food they could eat on that land for 99 years for the sum total of

Adesoji Iginla (22:22.111)
Incluence, not cause.

Aya Fubara Eneli (22:37.926)
$60,000 over the course of 99 years.

Adesoji Iginla (22:46.613)
Wow.

Adesoji Iginla (22:52.174)
See you

Aya Fubara Eneli (22:52.346)
We were up, we were up against much.

and our people colonized in so many different ways, whether it's colorism, whether it is...

education or whether it is a religion we just had a hard way of seeing ourselves as independent and living as such and that is what made the UNIA such an important movement that is what caused the masses to gravitate towards it because here was

an organization that preached the equality of the genders and that preached that we can be our own saviors and gave very specific information and teaching on what we needed to do. Let me share my last few words that I shared with Mr. Tolbert.

There's so much to say, it's hard to know where to say. The point is that eight supposedly prominent Uncle Tom Negroes wrote the federal attorney general in Washington a long letter. Did you hear me?

Adesoji Iginla (24:12.472)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (24:28.248)
Yeah, a long letter.

Aya Fubara Eneli (24:30.052)
black people, Africans, and long letter to the federal attorney general. Remember we were under surveillance by the FBI.

And they attributed to Garvey the fact that he was spreading hate amongst blacks and whites. These are African people, descendant of slaves, people who had been enslaved in the United States of America, now running to their very oppressor to say, take out that man because he is teaching us not to grovel.

and kiss the feet of white men. Now, at a point in American history, do I think that any one man could go out and teach black people to hate white people? I think that all the whites have ever done and are still doing towards black people couldn't constitute love, could it? They stated also,

Adesoji Iginla (25:25.816)
Certainly not.

Adesoji Iginla (25:33.781)
Okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli (25:38.756)
that they asked the Attorney General to rush the case against Garvey and have him deported out of the country because he was a menace and further that the Attorney General should shut down the UNIA because of his hate preaching proclivities. Exterminate. That was the word they used.

I hear that a brilliant young man made a documentary recently. He must have read this letter that these Uncle Tom's wrote about my husband because I understand he titled the documentary, Exterminate All the Brutes. Exterminate, that was the word they used. Our own black people.

Adesoji Iginla (26:29.801)
Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (26:40.112)
We're doing that to ourselves. Now Garvey, my husband, realizing what would happen at any moment because the government had within its power to close down all the branches of the UNIA, just as the government had in its power to legalize the Ku Klux Klan. You know they also tried to shut down the NAACP. None of these tactics are new.

Adesoji Iginla (27:02.99)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (27:09.68)
told people they had to state when they applied for a job whether they were a member of the NAACP and in certain states if you were you could not get a job or if you had a job you would be dismissed.

Now this same government that had in its power to legalize the Ku Klux Klan, although they were destroying our people and burning their properties, they had the temerity to say the issue was the UNIA.

So what my husband did, very astute of him, he decentralized the UNIA. That is, Garveyism was no longer confined in the vehicle of the Universal Negro Improvement Association and the African Communities League. Any group of Garbites or those who adhere to the principles of Garveyism, and if you don't know what those principles are and you are a Black person,

Put that as your assignment. Go and study. What are the principles of Garveyism? Which ones can you embrace? And the ones you can't embrace, study and ask yourself why.

Anyway, any group of Gharbaiyats or those who adhere to the principles of Gharbarism could form branches or groups or divisions, whatever they wanted to call it, so that the government could not be able to have one law or regulation that would shut all of them down.

Adesoji Iginla (28:44.055)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (28:45.674)
Because they weren't the UNIA they could call themselves anything that they wanted to we knew But you have to be smart and outsmart your adversaries So you will find now that there is the Ethiopian World Federation There is the Nationalist League There is the Tiger Club There is the Garby Club

Adesoji Iginla (28:57.218)
strategies.

Aya Fubara Eneli (29:14.988)
they were all sorts of names but it was Garveyism. In other words even though they succeeded in deporting my husband after coming up with trumped up charges against him

Adesoji Iginla (29:19.788)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (29:31.322)
Garbazem was at large.

Adesoji Iginla (29:33.378)
Yeah, you can kill a man, but you can kill an idea.

Aya Fubara Eneli (29:36.396)
Elijah Muhammad was a Legion man in the UNIA organization. Did you know that? And he went off and now started his Nation of Islam movement.

Adesoji Iginla (29:45.198)
So the Nation of Islam.

the Nation of Islam.

Aya Fubara Eneli (29:54.094)
with very similar tenants.

Aya Fubara Eneli (29:59.418)
That was all right, you see? That was the way when you are harassed and you are corralled and you are backed in a corner, you've got to think fast and do things. You see what I mean? And you can't go out and run your big mouth. I'm decentralizing the organization. See, you people now with the...

What do you call all your things now? Social media and things. Even back then with our newspapers, everything does not need to be public. Some things you just need to do quietly behind the scenes. You don't say I'm decentralizing the organization.

Adesoji Iginla (30:30.978)
social media.

Aya Fubara Eneli (30:52.89)
Black folk have more sense. You know what I mean? We've been mapping out plenty strategies. I may point out that in the Black Revolution for Change, we have cadres of all different groups who operate in different ways. We don't need to fight amongst ourselves. If you have a common vision for our collective liberation,

Let that be good enough. We don't have to be the exact same.

Some work in culture or art, but it is in keeping with the revolution for change in the status of the black man, and I would say woman, all over the world. I hope that gave you just a little hint of the work we did and the strategy.

Adesoji Iginla (31:47.81)
I mean, yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli (31:56.6)
And then I'm, you know, well, let me share some more things and then I'll get into a little bit more of personal things about myself.

Adesoji Iginla (32:05.517)
Okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli (32:09.028)
Now was a writer and I was a speaker.

And Amy Atchwood did have an official title in the organization.

in retrospect, perhaps.

I wanted to sidestep some of the issues that had streamed his previous marriage. And so although I was doing a lot of work organizing and writing and using my analytical and my legal and my administrative skills, speaking of fundraising and all of that for the organization, I never held an official title.

I didn't push the issue either. felt I could do the work and support. it was an example to how black women could support men. Because in Garveyism, we do teach that the man is the head of the household and should be providing for the household. And the woman is a helper. Not less than, of course, because we believed in.

Aya Fubara Eneli (33:27.526)
equality in gender. But yes, there was a lot of pushback by the patriarchy, you definitely you can say. Now, I married Marcus on July 27, 1922. At that point, of course, we had already been we were already being harassed by the FBI. We had a small wedding in Baltimore.

Adesoji Iginla (33:35.886)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (33:56.696)
And then he was imprisoned from 1925 to 1927. Of course, before the imprisonment, we had the long drawn out investigation and the arrest and the proceedings, the court and everything. So it was a stressful time. And in his absence, I was, of course,

Adesoji Iginla (34:24.578)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (34:27.104)
running the organization. But we had a group of men in the organization who had the nerve to call me a helpless woman and to assert that I in no way actively or passively

Adesoji Iginla (34:28.376)
You got

Aya Fubara Eneli (34:46.594)
ran or helped to run the organization and we can you know discuss later why this was. But I was raising the funds for his legal defense. I edited the woman's page of the Negro World. You know who else wrote for the Negro World that you might know? He was a good friend of ours John Henry Clark.

Adesoji Iginla (34:50.798)
Okay.

Adesoji Iginla (35:09.332)
who did?

Adesoji Iginla (35:15.317)
the great man.

Aya Fubara Eneli (35:16.166)
Now with W.E.B. Du Bois, it was a different story. He's definitely a patriarch. Maybe suffered me a little bit more because I was browner, know, lighter skinned. But he had, I would just say, interesting views of the role of a woman. We did come to, think, eventually, to some degree.

have some mutual respect, but he was quite condescending to women. But my page, this page, the women's page in the Negro world emphasized the importance of Black women's leadership. You cannot talk about the freedom of our people as a collective and leave women out.

Adesoji Iginla (35:52.792)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (36:14.168)
In my 1925 essay, Women as Leaders, many consider it a foundational work in what they now call Black feminist political thought. Of course, I did not call myself a feminist. were not words we used at that time. If a feminist is someone who believes in the agency of women and our ability to

Adesoji Iginla (36:30.862)
Thanks

Aya Fubara Eneli (36:43.342)
live full and complete lives I suppose so but if it means anything else or if it means fighting with my man for power that is that don't call me a feminist but that writing women as leaders is considered from 1925 it is considered a foundational work and if you haven't read it go look it up I published let me tell you the extent to which

People know and study my husband the way they do today.

have to be given quite a bit of the credit for it. Because I edited and published the philosophy and opinions of Marcus Garvey volumes one and two. I did that in 1923 and in 1925 under conditions that were quite tough given what was going on legally. But it was important to me to write and publish

Adesoji Iginla (37:48.12)
to keep a record.

Aya Fubara Eneli (37:51.158)
what the philosophy was. Many of you today you don't write, you have to write.

You have to write, even just a personal journal. If you sent them, think of this. Think of this, just thought of it.

If you write half a page a day of whatever you want to write about, how your trip to the supermarket went, what your child said or didn't say, what you did at work, half a page, and you did that for a full year, how many pages do you have?

Adesoji Iginla (38:32.91)
Hmm.

That's a book.

Aya Fubara Eneli (38:36.025)
Now imagine...

People later, maybe they're your biological heirs, maybe they're not. But imagine for you now, if today you could read the journal of a woman who looks like you, who lived in the 19, let's say the early 1900s.

and you could read about a year in her life in 1910. How illuminating would that be?

Adesoji Iginla (39:17.824)
Yeah, deep insights, deep insights.

Aya Fubara Eneli (39:20.294)
So I also co-authored, sorry, I also authored Garvey and Garveyism in 1963 and Black Power in America, The Power of Human Spirits in 1968. My essays and my editorials preserved the intellectual foundation of Garveyism for you and for the future unto.

Human beings no longer exist.

Aya Fubara Eneli (39:55.846)
Well, when they finally deported my husband, of course I left as well with him. This was in 1927. We returned to Jamaica and we had our two sons in 1930 and 1933. Marcus Mosiah Garvey III was born in 1930.

and Julius Winston was born in 1933.

Now I'm going to say something that I must say I'm not very proud of but I in the spirit of teaching I have to say this because it's important to not just learn from the achievements of those who came before you it's important to learn from their shortcomings too.

Adesoji Iginla (40:58.359)
Okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli (41:00.004)
I did tell you that our second son's name is Julius Winston Garvey.

Adesoji Iginla (41:05.471)
Yes, dear.

Aya Fubara Eneli (41:09.286)
My husband chose and I did not oppose it in any way that It's worth talking about My husband chose to name our second son After Julius Caesar and Winston Church

Aya Fubara Eneli (41:37.603)
in my latter years.

It was helpful to me to understand how easily our conditioning sets us up to do the very things that we may say we are opposed to. So when Amy Ashwood said that Marcus had called her his Josephine to his Napoleon.

Adesoji Iginla (41:56.43)
Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (42:12.014)
Yes, and in fact by the time

our family, know, Marcus and I had returned back to Jamaica.

Aya Fubara Eneli (42:27.492)
something began to happen even within Marcus, in my opinion, and that was quite critical of him from time to time. You know, we were both very passionate fiery thinkers and thought leaders and speakers. Garvey claimed that he was the explicator of the people and understood the power inherent in that role.

Adesoji Iginla (42:42.124)
Okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli (42:54.374)
Certainly, the idea of us becoming the overseers for the colonies previously owned by Germany could have kind of foretold this mindset. But again, a scholar that you all may have studied or heard of, Ngugi Watyongo, has suggested that intellectuals who serve as interpreters

sometimes see themselves as scouts and guides in their own linguistic space and that all too often they fall into a trap of locating power solely in those who can articulate it and failing to see the power in the people themselves. And so a criticism of my husband at one point was that

He was beginning to see himself as the whole church representative of the masses, similar to the theory of the talented tenth, I suppose.

Adesoji Iginla (43:57.955)
Don't let that end. Yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli (44:01.966)
and that he was beginning to assume this mindset and attitude even though he had criticized it amongst other African American leaders. Now upon our return to Jamaica, things were tough financially, but I did have an inheritance from my father and that provided some ability to somewhat take care of myself and my husband.

and address some of the UNIA debts. Now we had some very loyal Garveyites in the US who continued to send us money in Jamaica. In fact, they sent us a Buick and then when the engine of the Buick went out, they sent us a Hudson.

But as the depression grew in the United States, even our most loyal members really did not have the means to continue to give and support us.

Adesoji Iginla (45:02.06)
in 2020.

Adesoji Iginla (45:07.372)
the means.

Aya Fubara Eneli (45:15.577)
now.

Aya Fubara Eneli (45:19.686)
I, in studying the issues of women particularly, black women particularly in Jamaica, I saw the burdens, the financial burdens on us. And now as the mother of first, just my first child, I was also beginning to feel that pinch. I needed my husband, Marcus, to tone down his lifestyle.

I had begun to change my ideas on what constituted waste and excess. And my husband was quite prone to pomp and patentry, if you will. It's something that still plagues many African leaders and it makes them very susceptible to the whims of those powers that might whine or dine them or

Adesoji Iginla (46:00.174)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (46:15.728)
provide means for this sometimes what I consider ostentatious lifestyle.

On one occasion in 1931 after the birth of our first child, I suggested to my husband that he spend less on his personal secretaries, of which he had two. He had two personal secretaries. They reached a point in our marriage where we were actually living apart. In Jamaica, he lived in a different quarters with his two secretaries.

and I lived separately with my son and me to help because having the child around was too much of a disturbance. Now between us and whoever might be watching or listening

Aya Fubara Eneli (47:11.948)
I had started off as his wife's secretary.

Adesoji Iginla (47:16.182)
Hmm, I can see where you're going with that.

Aya Fubara Eneli (47:18.596)
and I will leave it at that.

Aya Fubara Eneli (47:23.334)
Both secretaries were paid in US salaries in Jamaica. And they had access to a car, a major luxury since most people on the island, they trekked, they walked by foot or by donkey or mule, or sometimes they hitched a ride on the back of a truck. But these two secretaries, they drove around in a car. In addition,

Garvey gave them presents, took them out on costly outings, and after a year of employment, paid for their vacations to the United States.

All of this occurred when I was frequently trying to figure out how to pay the household bills and when we were both pressed to meet organization bills.

In response to my complaints, my dear husband, who is legendary nonetheless for his flaws, calmly and deliberately told me that because he received much of his financial support from the United States, the African American secretaries had to be accommodated in such a manner.

Aya Fubara Eneli (48:54.702)
And he said, I thought you realized this a long time ago.

Adesoji Iginla (49:03.553)
Mmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (49:04.78)
Money was short and me and my son were often doing without. But my husband

was unwilling to change his spending habits. We went on to have our second child.

And with the birth of the second child, Garbys have hazard money management.

Adesoji Iginla (49:28.846)
Mr. Winston.

Aya Fubara Eneli (49:36.42)
didn't really change. So I changed.

I began to openly criticize his pecuniary mishaps and I would withhold from him the little inheritance I had from my father to live on.

Aya Fubara Eneli (49:59.75)
Now that me and my children were suffering, I had to go back and heed the very advice I had given other black women on how to stretch a dollar, on how to make do.

Aya Fubara Eneli (50:19.308)
Now, my husband, the thing he loved most about me, I would say, was my hair.

I had long, flowy hair and he loved that so much about me. In fact, he wrote a piece in the New Jamaican.

on September 1st, 1932, entitled The Question of Love. It was supposed to be just a general article, not autobiographical, but let's read some of what he said.

He wrote, love is really a personal matter. One man will love a woman because of her beautiful hair. A man marries a woman in the first instance of loving her for her hair. As the marriage develops, he may begin to realize her shortcomings physically and otherwise, not consistent with the love that the person had in the first place because of the beautiful head of hair.

He then goes on to describe how a philosopher sympathetically reasons with his spouse about her repulsiveness or bad disposition as a means to reform her. If the spouse accepts the suggestions, the lover will find himself not only loving the hair of a person, but loving the person completely.

Aya Fubara Eneli (52:09.434)
But when the woman refuses to conform, then you have a variance that cannot be interpreted as law.

Aya Fubara Eneli (52:21.252)
Well...

Aya Fubara Eneli (52:24.738)
It came to a time when my husband did depart for England. Things had gotten really tough in Jamaica and he felt that being in England would allow him to move the, you know, help the organization move forward. And for all intents and purposes, I became a single mother raising two children.

Marcus went with his two secretaries with whom he lived and worked at the location they secured for the UNIA. So you could say that after 13 years of marriage we had separated by choice. Of course we stayed married till he died and after he died I did not remarry.

Aya Fubara Eneli (53:27.256)
Interesting that one of the things we teach in Garveyism is the man maintaining his family, but I was the one solely responsible. Now he did send money from time to time, but nothing that I could count on. And he would send suits for the boys. Creditors began to stalk me. Bills went unpaid.

Adesoji Iginla (53:44.897)
rely on.

Aya Fubara Eneli (53:55.95)
On more than one occasion, I was summoned to court. I had to set up a payment plan because I could not afford the physician's bill incurred after my pregnancy.

Aya Fubara Eneli (54:12.482)
In addition to the gradual dissolution of my personal inheritance, the financial resources gleaned from the Universal Negro Improvement Association were also atrophying.

Aya Fubara Eneli (54:29.828)
So this is a situation in which I found myself. Now years later, Marcus was able to gather enough resources to send for us to come to the UK, which we did. But my youngest son was very sickly in the air. The UK air was not good at all for his lungs. And so we eventually returned to the UK and I made that decision unilaterally.

because my husband, in my opinion, was not willing to do what was required for our son's health.

Aya Fubara Eneli (55:06.365)
So, unfortunately, Marcus died in 1940 in the UK. And of course, at that point, our children were just 10 and seven years old. I am very proud of the fact that not only did I keep the memory of my husband,

Adesoji Iginla (55:31.884)
life.

Aya Fubara Eneli (55:33.006)
I kept it alive. kept the organization going. But I raised two amazing young men. One, both my sons have gone on to do incredible things in the world. And one of them, well, the surviving one, has also been instrumental in lobbying

for the exoneration of, well, first the pardon, I got that, but hopefully eventually the exoneration of my husband.

Adesoji Iginla (56:07.384)
Okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli (56:15.59)
I continued my activism by founding the African Studies Circle of the World, publishing new works, mentoring youth. I supported myself through my writing, my editing, my public speaking. And in 1963, I visited Nigeria at the invitation of President, well, Namdi Ezekiwe.

which was just a little reflection of the Pan-African circles in which I traveled because I had relationships with Jewish Nyerere, with Kwame Nkrumah, and with so many others. In 1971, I received the Moss Grave Medal from the Institute of Jamaica for my work.

Like I indicated earlier, I did pass a transition on July 25th, 1973 in Kingston, Jamaica, and I was buried at the St. Andrew's Parish Church Cemetery.

Just three years ago in 2022, my grave site was restored and the memorial was held to honor my contributions. There are several sites that commemorate my legacy. There's the Ami Jack Hall at UTEC in Jamaica. There's the R.M. Amy Jack Garvey Community Center in Kingston.

And there's the Jack Road in Kingston connected to my family legacy. And back to your original question. I am a woman. I am an African woman. I was the partner for one of the greatest leaders the African world and the world has seen. I am a Pan-Africanist. I am a woman who speaks up for women's issues.

Aya Fubara Eneli (58:23.096)
I'm an editor, I'm an archivist in my own right, I'm a mentor, I'm an activist, I am an organizer, I am a visionary, I am a mother and a grandmother. And my influence, I believe, will continue to live.

Adesoji Iginla (58:44.942)
Yes. There was, you mentioned a couple of gentlemen, John Henry Clark, W.E.B. Du Bois. These in the Anakus archives of history are two great men, know, especially within the black space. So the question would, question for you would be, in light of these titans,

Aya Fubara Eneli (59:07.387)
Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (59:13.282)
How did society at that time looked on the political label of black women, led by, as you described him, one of the most charismatic black figures? And these men were no slouches as well. So how would you categorize the way they were seen? I mean, you've given us an inkling into how W.E.B. Du Bois saw women, but maybe...

Was there counterbalance or that was just a general outlook? Then like women should, I don't want to put words into your.

Aya Fubara Eneli (59:46.79)
you.

Aya Fubara Eneli (59:51.33)
say that that was the prevailing outlook. You know, when people have been oppressed in the way that we have, and when our men, and I mean our African men, see the power wielded by white men and certainly wielded over white women, there's a tendency to unfortunately see that as the

Adesoji Iginla (59:54.702)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (01:00:19.456)
standards.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:00:20.516)
Yes, and to hold your head up and be as manly as the white man, you also have to have that subordinate spouse or helpmate, so to speak. And I didn't balk at the role women must play as nurturers, playing the home, playing, supporting their husbands, but I also very much believed, and the UNIA

had this understanding in theory anyway about the quality of the genders that women had a lot to offer as much as any man and that we needed opportunities to fully express our individuality as well as fully express our personalities our intellect certainly having the woman's arm if you will

allowed us to take on some of those leadership opportunities but many of the men I think preferred for us to be like children seen but not heard.

Adesoji Iginla (01:01:31.054)
Mmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:01:33.142)
They did not mind the work we did to advance the cause, but not to be up out front and not to take much credit. so, in fact, your viewers, your listeners may know of a story of a time when Marcus, my husband, was going to be speaking and it was a large crowd. And I was not anywhere on the program in terms of speakers, yes.

Adesoji Iginla (01:02:00.59)
the business.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:02:03.546)
but the people, men and women, demanded, asked so loudly that I too be allowed to speak, that I ended up speaking that day and some will say, you know, might have been the most engaging speaker. I think that that was a point of contention between Amy Ashwood and my husband.

and I continued to find ways to own who I was and at the same time not ruffle too many feathers unnecessarily.

Adesoji Iginla (01:02:47.544)
So with that said.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:02:49.348)
But John Henry Clark, I liked him. It worked very well with him. He had a different understanding. In fact, if I recall, he would say things like, the black woman is God. And that was refreshing at that time, yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (01:03:04.599)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (01:03:09.078)
OK, so with that said, you said men. Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:03:13.186)
And of course I wasn't alone. Mary McLeod Bethune was being dismissed in that way. were many, Mary Church Terrell, many of the women of that time who were activists, who were working, were often minimized and dismissed by the men.

Adesoji Iginla (01:03:31.192)
So can we attribute that mindset to why we haven't really truly achieved liberation if indeed our movements, our mindsets just replicated the same structures of gender oppression that we seek to resist in the broader society?

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:03:53.05)
Well, I wouldn't attribute it just to that. That is certainly one of the issues. The greater issue, I think, being

I wouldn't even, I used to call it white supremacy. I wouldn't even call it that. I will call it,

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:04:12.858)
The very real inferiority of white people that is eating them up from the inside that causes them to want to subjugate and control the entire world. I think that is the first major obstacle or challenge that or demon that we are faced with. Now, when you couple that with an education,

Adesoji Iginla (01:04:18.35)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:04:37.124)
that causes us to love our oppressors, whether it's through religion or through the books or even now through the culture. For instance, my husband being as thrilled as he was about my hair, as opposed to the coarser hair of his first wife, who was much darker skin than I was.

So there are layers to the issues affecting us, definitely.

fascism, this white sense of inferiority that fuels all their fear would be at the helm. I would definitely put the patriarchy right next to it. And then definitely this notion of imperialism and capitalism. Because even when you now get black people into positions, they want to lord it over others. So we are...

Adesoji Iginla (01:05:35.522)
Mmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:05:39.022)
challenges are layered.

Adesoji Iginla (01:05:42.018)
So yes, one final question. You mentioned she did travel to Nigeria and met with Namdi Azikiwe, who happened to be the first president, ceremonial president of Nigeria. What lessons can you say people seeking to build Pan-African frameworks learn from?

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:05:49.403)
Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (01:06:10.606)
Ms. Amy's efforts during her time within the UNIA, considering she practically ran the organization while the husband was incarcerated.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:06:25.008)
So I would say this, that when you have a child, no one is quite, I mean, some of us are clairvoyant, but no one is quite certain what path that child will take. But I'll tell you that my father had me reading papers, had me learning about the world beyond the one in which I lived in.

And all of those experiences as a child allowed me to have the critical thinking skills and the ability to understand that it's not just what I could see, there was a lot more going on. So one of the lessons I would say is that I could impart to those who may want to continue in the work that my husband and I did.

is you have to be informed.

Ignorance is not bliss. Ignorance is what has us sign a 99-year lease of a million acres of the land of your people for six cents an acre.

Adesoji Iginla (01:07:35.372)
your lists here.

Success.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:07:51.66)
If perhaps he had a better understanding of imperialism and what the people he was forming ties with had done to other communities and how they had decimated them or even had paid attention to the issues within Liberia itself, can you imagine what

a partnership with UNIA could have brought about as opposed to the partnership with Firestone. We have so many of these opportunities where just one decision can take us in a totally different place, right? So you look at the idea of

Adesoji Iginla (01:08:31.534)
you

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:08:53.05)
the United States of Africa and how some of us oppose that. What would happen if we had in that moment embraced that?

Adesoji Iginla (01:09:08.97)
embrace that idea.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:09:13.498)
but we will never know now. And so many decades where we could have been marching in a different way. Would it be possible then to destabilize Libya in the way it has been destabilized?

Would it be possible too?

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:09:37.422)
get western Sudan now to take deported from America? We will never know.

Adesoji Iginla (01:09:48.194)
Mmm. Mmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:09:50.18)
We will never know. So,

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:09:57.252)
We need to learn our history. We need to study what has been going on historically with us. We need to understand that we are not monolithic. And so unity does not mean that we are always of one thought, although the overarching piece has to be our liberation.

Now that might look different from different people, but what it cannot be is one group lording it over another, whether it's men over women or rich over quote unquote poor or light skinned over darker skin or darker skin. There's got to be that unity, that equality. I would say what I also learned is to forge relationships across

the expense, not just in one place. So those are just a few things that I would say. And then of course, you must write, you must write, you must write and disseminate your information. Write and disseminate your information. Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (01:11:04.148)
Yeah, speaker. I did say that was my last question, but obviously you did just mention writing now. Are there any writings that you would advise people to take on? With regards to some of your writings, the books.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:11:24.16)
they absolutely have to start with the philosophy of Garveyism. You have to know that first. The opinions and yes, that would be a good place to start. There are many articles, like I said, I contributed. A lot of my articles are The Negro World that are at the Schomburg. But I would start.

Adesoji Iginla (01:11:31.402)
Volumes 1 and 2.

Adesoji Iginla (01:11:35.96)
Okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:11:53.08)
with

the philosophy of Garveyism because more than what you want to learn about me, what I am interested in is recruiting people into the movement because the movement must not die. Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (01:11:58.059)
God.

Adesoji Iginla (01:12:08.439)
Mmm.

Adesoji Iginla (01:12:12.428)
Yes, and speaking of must not die, hopefully this podcast has given people a new lease of life. And in the course of doing this, we've come to learn about the movements and the thoughts of very incredible women. And the journey continues. Next week, it's going to be the lives and times of Nina Simone.

So I mean, exactly. Hopefully, will be none of that. But yes, it's been a very, very insightful conversation. And again, we've learned that when it comes to the interaction of men and women within our space, oftentimes they're not. Our own internal.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:12:43.504)
defecating on your microphone.

Adesoji Iginla (01:13:11.298)
dynamics have impeded what we should have achieved, but on the course too, hopefully, with our understanding and also reading, reflecting would give us a better insight of what has happened and how to avoid them going forward. So speaking of going forward, do you have any famous last words for us?

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:13:31.984)
Yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:13:41.626)
Get ready for Nina.

Adesoji Iginla (01:13:43.79)
Yes, Nina Simone is going to be next week. And yes, it's been one remarkable insight into the lives and times of Amy Jagiavi. We do apologize. There was a slight technical issue when we first of all started that we had to take care of. But hopefully,

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:14:11.154)
She wants to know how we two met. I don't know if she's talking about Marcus Garvey and I as in Amy Jack Garvey. Is that the question?

Adesoji Iginla (01:14:13.356)
Which two?

Adesoji Iginla (01:14:31.82)
give a couple of minutes to complete it.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:14:37.104)
Well, if that's the question, I'll answer that and then we'll see if that's the question or not. But yes, definitely I met him after hearing him speak at an event. As I said, stated earlier, Amy Ashwood and I were, became friends and I got to know him better through her and then he hired me as her personal assistant. And then I also began to assist him as well. she wants to know how.

Adesoji Iginla (01:15:03.694)
Aya Fubara Eneli (01:15:10.358)
Okay. Well, it was the pandemic of 2020 and

Adesoji Iginla (01:15:13.58)
You

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:15:25.72)
A friend of mine was starting a program where he was going to just teach on Africa and black people and our history and our culture and all of that on YouTube. And I tuned in. And you can tell your story, but I think you tuned in at some point.

Adesoji Iginla (01:15:50.764)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:15:51.654)
and we ultimately became part of a group that some of you may know if you sign up for narrative with a KKNARRATIBE you can then become part of another forum that is called Nubia and it was in that forum that I met our host here at SOG.

because he is an avid reader and was quite outspoken in the chat and also so happens to be from the area that I'm from as well. We can trace our people back to that same area even though it's different ethnic groups and that is how we started to interact in a group that read books together and discussed ideas and

Adesoji Iginla (01:16:27.854)
You

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:16:50.906)
I shared that I was working on a book on women who are sometimes overlooked, but I wanted to put it in the form of, I'm not going to say what I was going to put in a format because someone is probably listening and going to take my idea before I implement it. But at any rate, I shared that idea with him and he came up with Women and Resistance and here we are. Do you want to add anything to that?

Adesoji Iginla (01:17:05.166)
You

Adesoji Iginla (01:17:14.266)
Yes, other than, OK, you did allude to the movement. Yes, and for people who are not conversant, you can actually watch the program In Class with Car on Saturdays on YouTube, where you would get an understanding of how this idea itself, you know, you know.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:17:29.786)
That's what's on.

Adesoji Iginla (01:17:42.316)
had its humble beginnings because the man was just, know, again, it started in the pandemic. The man just mentioned one word. I was about to make coffee and the man mentioned, what's his name again? Shina Achebe, things fall apart. I was like, okay, what do you know about him? And then as they say, the rest is history. I met the good sister here physically. I think it was in DC? Yeah, was.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:17:55.558)
Good night everybody.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:18:10.95)
DC at Baraka's event. Yes. Mayor. Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (01:18:16.129)
Baraka's event, the New Jersey's mayor. Yeah, yeah, so that was where we first of all met. And shall we say a couple of groups, reading groups, I mean, there's enough to make a story out of that, but the focus is on women.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:18:24.314)
Yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:18:37.178)
So anyone who wants to be part of a group that reads and studies people like Ayi Kwa Man, Gugi Watyongo, we've done so many different authors, let Adesuji know.

Adesoji Iginla (01:18:49.996)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. you could, yeah, yeah, I mean, you're more than welcome to join us. So again, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's growth in itself. I mean, we don't just read the books, you read the books and you discuss with individuals who have might have a different take on the book you've just read. But then you come to some sort of understanding that there is not just more than there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:19:02.927)
Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (01:19:19.618)
as they would say. so speaking of, hopefully we're not, I love the way you crack. He tries not to laugh out loud. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true, that's That's true. It means you've been focused.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:19:21.674)
Yep.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:19:36.87)
Only when I have some outrageous costume on, maybe with Nina. We'll see. We'll see how Nina wants to present herself because, you know, sis was all of that.

Adesoji Iginla (01:19:49.422)
Yeah, Whole lot of jazz. And yes, it's been one remarkable experience. again, hopefully we'll see you all next week. And thank you all for coming. And good night. Good night.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:19:55.044)
So I'm gonna sign off.

to that.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:20:07.216)
Good night, everyone.