EP 6 Micere Githae Mugo - Words in Defiance I Women And Resistance 🌍

In this episode of Women and Resistance, host Adesoji Iginla engages with co-host Aya Fubara Eneli, playing Writer and Pan Africanist Micere Githae Mugo, exploring her life journey, identity, and the importance of community and activism. 

They discuss the philosophical concepts of Utu and Ubuntu, the significance of storytelling in African culture, and the role of feminism in addressing gender inequality. 

The writer shares her experiences as a two-time cancer survivor, her academic achievements, and her commitment to human rights advocacy, emphasising the need for collaboration and the power of creativity in expressing one's narrative.

Takeaways

*The importance of understanding one's identity and heritage.
*Community plays a crucial role in personal and collective growth.
*Storytelling is a vital aspect of African culture and education.
*Feminism should be inclusive and address the oppression of all genders.
*Utu and Ubuntu are foundational philosophies for human connection.
*Writing is a powerful tool for self-expression and legacy.
*Engagement in conversations enhances learning and understanding.
*Activism is essential for advocating human rights and social justice.
*Life experiences shape our perspectives and actions.
*Embracing creativity can lead to personal and communal healing.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Afro-Women and Resistance
01:32 Exploring the Life of Professor Michere Githai Mugo
06:09 The Journey of a Scholar and Activist
11:01 Exile and Identity: A Stateless Citizen's Experience
16:20 The Power of Oral Traditions in Storytelling
21:43  Feminism and Gender Awareness in African Contexts
26:39  Embracing Diversity: Utu and Ubuntu Philosophy
29:29  Engaging Through Oratory and Call-and-Response
30:06  Ubuntu: The Philosophy of Interconnectedness
32:38  Understanding Utu: The Habit of Being Human
34:46  The Essence of Humanity in Scholarship
36:17  Cultural Expressions in Poetry and Performance
38:15 The Importance of Engagement in Learning
42:46  Navigating Challenges and Finding Support
46:47  Intentional Connections and Collaborative Growth
49:57  The Art of Writing and Storytelling
52:23  Reflections on Life, Activism, and Legacy

Welcome  to Women and Resistance, a powerful podcast where we honour the courage, resilience, and revolutionary spirit of women across the globe. Hosted by Aya Fubara Eneli Esq and Adesoji Iginla...

You're listening to Women and Resistance with Aya Fubara Eneli Esq and Adesoji Iginla—where we honour the voices of women who have shaped history through courage and defiance...Now, back to the conversation.

That’s it for this episode of Women and Resistance. Thank you for joining us in amplifying the voices of women who challenge injustice and change the course of history. Be sure to subscribe, share, and continue the conversation. Together We Honour the past, act in the present, and shape the future. Until next time, stay inspired and stay in resistance!

Transcript

Adesoji Iginla (00:02.7)
Yes, greetings and welcome to another episode of Afro-Women and Resistance.

And yes, greetings. I am a co-host at the Sojii Ginla and with me before she goes into character is Aya Fubara in Elyia Square. Are you sister?

Aya Fubara Eneli (00:12.033)
Greetings.

Aya Fubara Eneli (00:27.793)
I am doing well. Thank you.

Adesoji Iginla (00:30.662)
OK. As it's loud and clear, loud and clear. We'll wait for feedback from those listeners as well. And they might add to it. And then we'll make adjustments as required. OK, so as is customary, every week we sit and talk about women and the act of resistance.

Aya Fubara Eneli (00:33.237)
And you can you can hear me okay. know sometimes. Okay, good.

Adesoji Iginla (00:59.79)
in whatever field of human endeavor, albeit a call of existence. But this week, so this week is no different, we are looking at the lives and times of Professor Michere Githai Mugo. So first things first, who is

Michere Giza Mugu.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:32.573)
It is an honor to be with you here this evening and I'm very much looking forward to saying something that will encourage your listeners, your viewers to embrace the concepts of Ubuntu and Utu, which I will explain in more detail.

We live in very perilous times and I hesitate to say now more than ever, but we are in the now. We must come together and recognize our humanity and the things that connect us. But what I will do is I will read something that I wrote when I was asked this question, who am I?

Adesoji Iginla (02:33.356)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (02:35.677)
I am not as in the plural of rice, but I'm I am Mishere, the one who travels, the one who visits, the one whose name comes from Njeri, one of the nine daughters of Mumi. Mishere is a version of her, of hair. I am a woman.

I am the mother of Mumbi and the late Njeri. I am a daughter of the Getai family and by a former marriage of the Mugo family. I am a native of Barisho India Division, Kiriyanga District in Kenya.

am a daughter of the Kenyan soil. I am a border crosser defying geographical containment. I am Zimbabwean. I am African. I am Pan-African. I am Nigerian. I am Jamaican. I am an internationalist. I am Black American. I am a transnationalist. I

I'm a citizen of the world.

Aya Fubara Eneli (03:59.411)
a communalist, mother to my sisters and brothers children, I am a grandmother to their children's children, and a great grandmother to their children's children children. I am a non-biological mother to countless daughters and sons in all the communities of the world where I have lived.

been reborn many times over and over through naming. No less than eight children that I know of, perhaps more, have been named after me internationally. Micherie has become a name that has traveled across the world. I'm a teacher. I love teaching. I am passionate about teaching.

many titles of distinction as a teacher. I call myself and my students call me Mualimu, one who advocates knowledge and learning. I am a student for life. I am a scholar and an intellectual, not an imposter, as one of my poems argues in my mother's poem and other songs.

I am a poet, playwright, and essayist. I am also a novelist in the works. I am a lover of Africana orator and the oral traditions of our people. And I hope that today you will join me as we have this conversation about who we are and our traditions.

I am deeply rooted unapologetically in indigenous Africana sites of knowledge, but I am also a creative seeker of knowledge wherever it comes from without barriers. I am a human rights activist driven by the spirit and visions of Utu and Ubuntu. My favorite motto is

Adesoji Iginla (06:11.693)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (06:24.179)
am because we are. And since we are, therefore I am. This is a quotation from one of my favorite teachers of all time, Professor John Beattie. In his work on African religion and philosophy, he argues that this is the African philosophy of life.

Adesoji Iginla (06:25.624)
Yes. Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (06:55.393)
the Shona greeting in which you ask me, how are you? Ask me, ask me, how am I? And my response would be, I will tell you, I am well if you are well.

Adesoji Iginla (07:04.129)
How are you?

Adesoji Iginla (07:12.492)
I will, yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (07:17.363)
am a two-time cancer survivor, still battling the second bout of multiple myeloma, a cancer of the the bone marrow, but I am marching forward. I am a loser at times, but more often a winner. I, I'm Isheri Gatelumogo, I am above labels.

and beyond definitions. I have far too many identities to bow to containment. I am a swimmer in the stream of life. I am. I am. I

Does that answer your question, young man?

Adesoji Iginla (08:10.198)
Yes, I mean, and you can't put a final point to it. It's a remarkable insight into a life that we're about to learn more about. And so how would you say you came into what made you who you are writing?

Aya Fubara Eneli (08:36.267)
You know, you always have to start from the source. You have to start from the beginning. Right? So I was born on December 12th, 1942, as I told you already in Barisho in Kenya. And I was born to what might be described as very progressive parents. My father was a senior chief, Richard Karugu.

Adesoji Iginla (08:41.272)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (09:06.145)
Karuga Getai and my mother was Grace Njeri Getai. You can already see the colonialism right in the midst. Yes, yes, yes.

Adesoji Iginla (09:12.722)
yeah yeah the names yeah and i believe you also had a name you were given a christian name

Aya Fubara Eneli (09:22.077)
Yes, course we were all given these Christian names. As you can see from my writings, I don't use it, but if you want to share, you can share it. Yes, you would have to study the Bible to understand some of the origins of these names. So, and you know, it's important to note.

Adesoji Iginla (09:25.87)
Huh.

Adesoji Iginla (09:33.76)
I believe your name was Madeleine?

Aya Fubara Eneli (09:49.821)
culture and religion, spirituality. We were always a spiritual people. But when you are told that in order to get the education that you believe is necessary for forward movement, that you must...

take on the names and culture of a different group to be accepted by God. Of course, back then, we just did it. Some, of course, resisted. But those who wanted to get into the schools, you went along. So I attended Alliance Girls High School and Limuru Girls High School.

Adesoji Iginla (10:33.848)
Mmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (10:35.881)
I did marry. I was married briefly to Dr. John Mungo, which is where you get the Mungo from. We have two daughters, Mumbiwa Mungo and Njeri Ku Mungo. I will tell you a little bit more about them. I don't go so much into my marriage just to know that

At a point, we got divorced and I proceeded to raise my children as a single mother. So I understand life as a woman from multiple lenses, if you will. I earned my Bachelor of Arts degree at McCarran University in 1966. Again.

Adesoji Iginla (11:27.309)
Well.

Aya Fubara Eneli (11:31.763)
As you ask me about my writing, I do forget your question. It's important to note that

Adesoji Iginla (11:35.566)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (11:41.789)
am who I am because of the opportunities that I was privileged to have. Not necessarily because I was the brightest. Because at the time when my father sent me to school, it was actually very common for parents to only send their sons. So many other girls.

could possibly have had the same life that I had, you know, with under different circumstances. And then in addition to that, you have to look at the boys who also did not get that opportunity because they did not have the resources. And of course that is still happening today. So, yes.

Adesoji Iginla (12:14.958)
that's it.

Adesoji Iginla (12:35.65)
plus the circumstances of the time you're talking about a colonial, pre-colonial and post-colonial situation.

Aya Fubara Eneli (12:39.263)
Yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli (12:43.541)
Yes, very much so, very, much so. Now, upon graduating, I did continue my studies at the University of Nairobi, and I later also obtained my MA and my PhD degrees from the University of Brunswick, completing them in 1973.

So shortly after that, you know, I was obviously one of the better trained, or you say, formerly educated women of my time, people of my time. And I was recruited and served in 1978 as the first woman

to serve as the Dean of the Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences at the University of Nairobi in Kenya, yes. And of course, at this time.

Adesoji Iginla (13:41.72)
Kenya.

Aya Fubara Eneli (13:50.389)
Arap Moi was the president of Kenya. He was, there were all kinds of civil rights, infractions, infringements, if you will. And I have always been an outspoken human rights activist. And so following the failed coup in 1982, and based on my criticism of,

Arap Moé, yes. I basically had to flee the country. And you can call it self-imposed exile, but we fled in 1982. I was fortunate enough to through connections with people. Again, I will come back to this concept, but I have never left it of Utu and Ubuntu.

Adesoji Iginla (14:20.278)
Is regime? Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (14:44.27)
Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (14:46.773)
Doors were open to me and I was able to teach at St. Lawrence University from 1982 to 1984 and then the University of Zimbabwe. Now understand that Kenya revoked my passport. So essentially I was a citizen of nowhere. Yes. And Zimbabwe gave me citizenship.

Adesoji Iginla (15:05.516)
Mm. Yes. Stateless. Yes, stateless.

Aya Fubara Eneli (15:18.081)
accepted me and my daughters. And I served at the University of Zimbabwe from 1984 to 1991. So when I say I'm a Zimbabwean, haha, I come about it honestly. But this is who we should be to each other.

And I then moved to the United States again through the means of friends and well-wishers and extended community members. And I taught at Cornell University in 1992. And then from 1993 to 2015,

I served as professor of African American studies at Syracuse University, where I became the Meredith professor for teaching excellence in 2007. I also chaired the African American studies department from 2005 to 2008, and then directed the African Initiative.

from 2001 to 2005. And in these spaces, very much understanding the importance of not isolating ourselves in the so-called ivory towers, but that we are part of a greater community. I also co-founded the Pan-African Community of Central New York and founded the United Women of Africa Organization.

Adesoji Iginla (16:34.638)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (16:43.864)
Building Committee.

Adesoji Iginla (16:47.854)
I'm gonna need to, yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (16:59.369)
So now the writing had always been writing. And in fact, have contributed to a number of books with other writers that you might know of like Wolesho Inka and Ngoogoo Watyongo. In fact, Ngoogoo and I co-wrote this book.

Adesoji Iginla (17:15.724)
What's your door here?

Aya Fubara Eneli (17:21.791)
This is a later edition. There are some earlier ones, but the trial of Dedan Kemati. Do you know who this man is? If you don't know, you should definitely know. You want to tell your listeners just a little bit?

Adesoji Iginla (17:23.832)
to trial.

The didn't come out here.

Adesoji Iginla (17:33.646)
Yeah, you should.

So Dada Nkimathi used to be the head of the Kenyan land and freedom army. He led the rebellion against the British colonial forces in Kenya. And he was subsequently executed and buried in violation of the traditional rights of the land.

I mean, we could go on and on, but that will detract from what you're about to say. You can continue.

Aya Fubara Eneli (18:18.453)
Yes. And so, my writing first was informed by the oral traditions of my people.

We have this now in the African-American parlance, we call it call and response. That is a very African thing. I tell you a story and the story has music in it and it has what the respondent. In fact, I'll give you an example. This is a Nigerian example. So when they're getting ready to tell the folk tales and the people will gather.

Adesoji Iginla (18:39.02)
Bon C'ya!

Adesoji Iginla (19:00.206)
story story.

Aya Fubara Eneli (19:02.465)
In the English version, will be story story. And the people will respond story. But in one of the indigenous languages, it will go something like this. Sawee. And the people will answer wa. Then the person will say, rotunwe. It came to be a time.

Adesoji Iginla (19:04.984)
Story story. Story.

Aya Fubara Eneli (19:29.697)
So in the English version, be like once upon a time. But it came to be a time. And then people will say, so, orutumwe. And people will say, utumwe ruariya. Their response is, when I say it came to be a time, they'll say, and a time that was kind of like circular, timeless. And then I would say, inketanya raapa, which is when a dog carries a bag.

Adesoji Iginla (19:46.946)
Most times, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (20:00.371)
And the response is...

Adesoji Iginla (20:03.031)
you

Aya Fubara Eneli (20:04.499)
in say Golanor here. And what that translates to is, so I say when a dog carries a bag and the people respond, that means that there is no more shit in the forest because we associated dogs with always going to eat feces. Yes. Yes. So if the dog has carried a bag, it's like what I need to eat is not here anymore. I need to travel. And then they will say,

Adesoji Iginla (20:19.886)
Wait, I'm pooping. Exactly.

Aya Fubara Eneli (20:34.145)
And the people will respond, what is the translation? If a chicken now clocks, if a chicken now crows, you know the chicken, you know the sound the chicken makes. The answer is that means there's no more grass in the garden.

Adesoji Iginla (20:37.346)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (20:50.484)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, a cockroach.

Adesoji Iginla (20:56.65)
Hmm. Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (20:57.949)
In other words, the chicken is always pecking, pecking, pecking, pecking, pecking. So if it raises its mouth to now let out any other sound, it's because there's no more food there, no more grass there for it to peck. And you know what? We can go and go back and forth like this before the actual story is told.

Adesoji Iginla (21:00.551)
Package, package, yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (21:09.614)
Mmm.

Adesoji Iginla (21:16.311)
Mm-hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (21:16.621)
and it's a way of teaching riddles, a way of sharpening critical thinking skills because you say, why is the dog carrying a bag? You know? And then the story will go. So you people have a story in English that the kids will read, Jack and the Beanstalk. But before Jack and the Beanstalk, we had traditional stories like

Adesoji Iginla (21:19.416)
Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (21:24.858)
and

Adesoji Iginla (21:28.417)
Mmm.

Adesoji Iginla (21:40.462)
Okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli (21:47.121)
one that has to do with Udala tree and we will sing a song. Udala mokwo and the people say mda, mda, mda, mda, mda, mda, mda, mda, mda, mda, mda, mda, mda, mda, mda, mda, mda, mda, mda, mda, mda, mda, mda, mda,

Adesoji Iginla (21:47.308)
The totals.

Adesoji Iginla (22:03.744)
Mm-hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (22:14.613)
that we were told that we heard the language and the way that we heard our elders conversing and how they will use riddles and parables, right? And then I went to the formal education and then they say, no, you have to learn Greek and learn Latin and you have to write prose in such a way and poetry in such a way. And so for a long time, I actually censored myself.

Adesoji Iginla (22:26.264)
Hmm. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Adesoji Iginla (22:35.811)
Let's see.

Adesoji Iginla (22:44.136)
Mmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (22:44.249)
It wasn't until I read P. Bitek's book Song of Lawinu and I saw that he was not ashamed to write, of course Bitek, yes, to write in the traditions of our people that I broke free of those chains.

Adesoji Iginla (22:58.466)
Yeah, I'll call it a day.

Adesoji Iginla (23:06.08)
of people, yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (23:12.159)
But for me, writing is as natural as breathing. So whether it's yes, structure, no structure, because the thing we're calling structure has other constraints that Western education has put on us. Who says there's no structure? So I'm an essayist, but I'm also a novelist, and I'm a playwright, and I'm also a poet.

Adesoji Iginla (23:17.294)
without structure. Yeah, don't encose yourself in structure.

Adesoji Iginla (23:30.648)
This one was put on the right end. Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (23:42.495)
And I say all of that not to be boastful, but to tell our people, we don't have to accept the labels and you don't have to shrink yourself or to be less than what you are. Let's own up to all the largest of who you are so that it gives other brown skinned children and all.

people of the world permission to be themselves. So I have there so much that I want to share with you. I don't even know where to start now. We will get back to my honors and things of that nature. know, so in terms of my life.

Aya Fubara Eneli (24:34.495)
been exiled from Kenya, basically a stateless person, I became a citizen of the world. And wherever I went, I made it my home and my intention was to build community and I was very successful at that. And I stayed in contact with people even as I traveled, even as my path took me to other places.

Adesoji Iginla (25:01.223)
This is it.

Aya Fubara Eneli (25:02.215)
So I know that you have had opportunity to talk with some of my sisters. You know my book, my book that deals with

Adesoji Iginla (25:08.238)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (25:17.693)
Utu Anubuntu as Africana principles, right? Yes. The imperative of Utu Anubuntu in Africana scholarship. It's a book that I put together. One of the poems that I actually start the book with, you covered when you talked with my sister Asata Shakur, where she says, continue the traditions. But do you know?

Adesoji Iginla (25:21.678)
African or rich, yep.

Adesoji Iginla (25:41.485)
Yep.

traditions.

Aya Fubara Eneli (25:47.005)
one of my sisters and very dear friends that you also talked to. Yes. So they're all of these connections. And we supported each other because she and I at one point were both single mothers and exiles.

Adesoji Iginla (25:51.438)
I'm not at all either.

Adesoji Iginla (26:07.68)
and exiles, like, yeah, in Zimbabwe.

Aya Fubara Eneli (26:10.719)
Yes, and when we were both in the United States, she would invite me to come and speak at her school. I would invite her to come and speak at my school. We supported each other in so many ways. There's so many dark tales. We women who have fought this battle and even the men as well. But I wanted to talk about something while I have this opportunity. And that is.

Some people say that I coined the terminology of...

Feminine masculinity. I want to break down what I mean by feminism because in some quarters, it's almost like a bad thing to now say you're a feminist as a woman of African descent. For me, I use basically a definition given by one of my dear friends, my Caribbean sister, who says,

Feminism is nothing but the understanding and awareness of women's oppression based on gender and sexism. What is to argue with? What is to quibble about?

It is the understanding and awareness of women's oppression based on gender and sexism.

Aya Fubara Eneli (27:46.879)
When you take that as a definition, then it's not a stretch at all to understand that both men and women can then be feminists. All human beings can be feminists, because all we're asking you to do is to understand and be aware of the oppression of women.

Adesoji Iginla (27:59.726)
future.

Aya Fubara Eneli (28:12.465)
based on gender and sexism, not class, not a level of education, all of that, based on gender and sexism. So to the extent that patriarchy is one of the biggest problems facing the world today, and men are the beneficiaries

Adesoji Iginla (28:28.462)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (28:40.691)
and the guardians of this patriarchy. How do you address this structural issue without then inviting men into the conversation? So when people say, feminism is women want to get do away with men, no more men.

Adesoji Iginla (28:43.554)
system.

Aya Fubara Eneli (29:04.289)
Is that possible?

Adesoji Iginla (29:05.88)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (29:07.647)
Women unilaterally cannot dismantle this structure. The men who are the guardians and the beneficiaries must be part of it. Can an egg fertilize itself? We need one another. So let me take this moment to just disabuse some who may have gotten this idea wrong.

Adesoji Iginla (29:23.31)
No. Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (29:37.715)
Yes, are there white women fighting their men? Yes, but that's another issue with imperialism and, you know, colonialism and the kind of patriarchy that white men have really kind of...

injected as a virus.

But I'm not fighting with my brothers or my husbands or my sons or my fathers. Now, the other point though is we all, whether you consider yourself a woman, whether you consider yourself a man, whether you consider yourself transgender, whatever your gender is,

We all have been socialized to accept this patriarchy. We are all infected with these patriarchal ideas.

In fact, you see that within women who even with no men around will impose those same ideas on themselves. What is a good woman? What is a good wife? In the United States, the women still cannot come together and elect a woman as president. And it's precisely

Aya Fubara Eneli (31:04.095)
because of these patriarchal ideas. You saw it with Hillary Clinton's run. You saw it with Kamala Harris's run as well. So both men and women can then become the ones who continue to perpetuate this structure that is so harmful, that leads to the oppression of women. And I am categorically opposed to the oppression of any group of people.

But I want to say this very clearly, that when you oppress her, when you oppress your mother, when you oppress women, you are oppressing society. No society can be free, can be liberated while you are oppressing half of that society. Now let me say something else too, because when I returned to Kenya,

Adesoji Iginla (31:54.318)
sure.

Aya Fubara Eneli (32:02.357)
I was interviewed by a number of people, but there's a particular interview that I recall. And they were saying, you've kind of come out on the wrong side of the discussion on homosexuality in Kenya. Because they were trying to impose these draconian laws against people who were considered homosexual. And this is what I said to them.

Aya Fubara Eneli (32:33.993)
am not homosexual, however, in the spirit of Utu and Ubuntu.

We must embrace all of us even when some of us might be different from others.

Adesoji Iginla (32:49.55)
Correct.

Aya Fubara Eneli (32:52.609)
How can you now ostracize, demonize, criminalize?

your own because they might have a different sexuality and then so they wanted to argue is that not the West imposing their ideas on us see only people who have forgotten their own history their own culture can really say that because we have always had

so-called homosexuals in our midst. We did not have that terminology, but we've always had. And if you follow our oral traditions before we started to sanctify it based on Christianity or Islam or any of that, you will see. So why not?

embrace everybody. And since I've been saying I will talk to you about this Utu and Mnubuntu, let me just share a little bit about what I mean. I do hope that your listeners will try to get some of my books and I will share what some of them are. But this one that I wrote on the imperative of Utu and Mnubuntu in Africana scholarships.

was very much to remind us to ground ourselves in our own tradition. In fact, I will read directly from what I wrote. said, it has also been my conscious effort to affirm African indigenous knowledges as a valid and critical sites for academic engagement.

Aya Fubara Eneli (34:41.389)
I describe this ongoing engagement as excavating the gold mines of African indigenous knowledge. Not just uranium and cobalt and all of that. We have riches that far exceed these mineral resources. As someone

Adesoji Iginla (35:01.584)
Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (35:03.937)
primarily grounded in the creative arts, the task has involved learning from orator specialists and practitioners, people who are embedded in African oracy. In African orature, discourse is both conversational

and interactive as I demonstrated earlier. The orator considers her or his audience, fellow travelers and essential participants in the narrative that he or she is unfolding.

Adesoji Iginla (35:33.152)
Which I think, yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (35:48.895)
To ensure this, she will pause from time to time and either ask them a question or invite their involvement, usually by using what the Black Arts calls call and response, or by building into the spoken text, refrains, repeated statements that reinforce the theme of his or her presentation.

Adesoji Iginla (36:00.642)
for an investment.

Aya Fubara Eneli (36:14.811)
So when I talk about Ubuntu, again it's based on the writings of Professor John Beatty. I am because you are, since you are therefore I am. Oratory or verbal art in many African societies reflects the shared worldview. As I already told you about the Shona greeting.

You ask me how I am. I say, I am well, if you are well, but do you know that we will go beyond that? You say, how are your, how are your, your, your family or my family is well, if your family is well, how are your cows and chicken? How is your farm doing? My own is well, if yours is well, we are connected. other words, the welfare of one person is tied to the wellbeing of the other.

Adesoji Iginla (36:43.522)
You are well.

Adesoji Iginla (37:11.266)
true word of community.

Aya Fubara Eneli (37:11.649)
Africana scholars need to find out how to incorporate this collective and connective, the collective and connective perspective of life into their scholarship. We do not have to write like the colonizers who obviously did not have this concept of interconnectivity because that is what allowed them to then

Adesoji Iginla (37:29.239)
Mmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (37:40.609)
at will.

Adesoji Iginla (37:40.756)
breakouts yeah

Aya Fubara Eneli (37:44.554)
And to the extent that we are divorced from this concept of utu and ubuntu, you can see how we now hurt ourselves. So what is utu? So I told you what ubuntu is, right? I am because you are, and since you are, therefore I am. So utu is a Kiswahili term meaning, halay yam tukuwa na tabia yakibna damu.

Adesoji Iginla (38:11.928)
Meaning.

Aya Fubara Eneli (38:12.853)
You have to ask me what the meaning of that is. And what it basically, you know, it's not a word for word translation when you move from one language to another. But essentially in English, the translation would be the state of the person who has the habit of being human.

Adesoji Iginla (38:37.166)
Mmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (38:38.835)
Utu, the state of a person who has the habit of being human. So if you do not have the habit of being human, if like the person that you people elected in the United States, you are in the habit of dehumanizing people, you do not have the habit of being human. Therefore you do not have Utu.

Adesoji Iginla (38:41.858)
Yes, sir.

being human.

Aya Fubara Eneli (39:11.009)
Talk of Africa's paradoxical statements. Simply, Utu is the capacity to exhibit behavior that is humane. Do you have the capacity to act like a human being, to be humane?

Adesoji Iginla (39:24.152)
you

Aya Fubara Eneli (39:35.561)
So when you see your elderly and you decide that the best route is to make them homeless, to take away their healthcare and to take away their feeding, their ability to feed.

Adesoji Iginla (39:41.07)
Push them.

Aya Fubara Eneli (39:54.495)
Are you exhibiting the capacity to be humane? Is your behavior humane?

Aya Fubara Eneli (40:05.459)
In other words, Utu is the philosophy that the soul is paramount and that losing it is worse than losing all of one's material possessions. It is based on the philosophy that to be whole and to define one's personhood and one's humanity, the human physical form is inadequate.

Adesoji Iginla (40:20.562)
and

Aya Fubara Eneli (40:35.945)
In other words, one's soul and inner being are the cores that define personhood, not physical or material manifestations alone. Having wealth, however gratifying this might be to some, the race to become the first Triluneer, while so many in the world are languishing, that however rich you are,

Adesoji Iginla (40:59.054)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (41:04.125)
If you are spiritually poor, this is a reduction of your personhood. It is therefore imperative that as scholars of Africana studies and research, we should celebrate Utu by affirming the essence of humanity in what we do. The other absolutely critical quality of Utu is the ability, listen up.

The ability to then connect one's humanity to the humanity of another. Don't just behave humanely to yourself.

Adesoji Iginla (41:45.824)
See yourself in others.

Aya Fubara Eneli (41:47.797)
Yes. Utu draws from the philosophical well of understanding that John Beatty expounds in the worldview of indigenous communal African societies. It is with this understanding that Black studies refuted and must continue to refute the notion of exceptionalism that viewed the intelligentsia

as a special clique, as the chosen ones that will then get to live above others. And the extent to which people are forgetting how Black Studies came about, that it was students and community members, some who never graced the halls of any ivory tower.

Adesoji Iginla (42:24.46)
We'll be with you boys.

Aya Fubara Eneli (42:44.277)
who put their lives on the line to ask for these studies. How dare we now get into these proverbial ivory towers and then divorce ourselves from our community. And then you write for your dissertation or your tenure panel talking all kinds of things that nobody else can understand and that has no basis in

Adesoji Iginla (42:49.294)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (43:14.367)
the community or the liberation of your people.

Aya Fubara Eneli (43:21.409)
Okay, I'm looking at your time. I know you have questions for me. So much I want to share with you. So I want to share one of my poems with you. Okay? This one is, Daughter of My People Sing.

Adesoji Iginla (43:30.549)
Go.

Aya Fubara Eneli (43:41.417)
Hmm. So, when I say...

Aya Fubara Eneli (43:49.681)
Sing. I want you to respond. Even if you are virtual, you can't, I can't hear you. I want you, I'm gonna pause so you too can say, sing after me, okay?

Aya Fubara Eneli (44:04.277)
Doctor, will my people sing?

Adesoji Iginla (44:06.87)
sing after me.

Aya Fubara Eneli (44:09.053)
No, no, you just say sing. Okay. Thank you. Okay. So, of my people, sing. Thank you. Sing, girl, sing. Daughter of my people, sing. Rise, sister, rise and dance. Be soulful, be wholeful, be whole. Sing, man, sing. Sing and dance, brother.

Adesoji Iginla (44:15.916)
sync.

Adesoji Iginla (44:20.642)
sync.

Adesoji Iginla (44:24.802)
Sink?

Adesoji Iginla (44:33.868)
sync.

Aya Fubara Eneli (44:37.243)
Rise, rise and dance. Laugh brother, be soulful son and let the sun shine. Shake the mountains, man the storms, command the hurricanes. Sing.

Adesoji Iginla (44:48.93)
Sync.

Aya Fubara Eneli (44:51.179)
Peace, stand on both feet and dance, sing. And be, be soulful, daughter of my people, sing. Thank you. And that is how, you how, you know, you see it even in our churches. You know, the first time I went to one of these churches and I said, my.

Adesoji Iginla (44:55.874)
Sync.

Adesoji Iginla (45:03.755)
sync.

Aya Fubara Eneli (45:20.117)
The preacher, he's just talking to himself. Just talking, talking, everybody just sat and looking.

Aya Fubara Eneli (45:29.941)
In our tradition, if you're talking and nobody's responding.

Adesoji Iginla (45:36.472)
You

Aya Fubara Eneli (45:37.631)
My mother would say, am I talking to myself? Did you not hear me? Act like you are live. You have to show some response. So that is a major part of our culture and a major part of what we must infuse into our scholarship, even those who are, as they say, in the academy. So let me pause.

Let me pause. What questions do you have?

Adesoji Iginla (46:09.346)
I mean, to, I was just going to buttress your point there where you said it's call and response. Part of African orature is also the act of repetition for emphasis. When I say, what is your name? Can you hear me? What, what did I call you? So they would repeat your name two, three times. How many times did I call you is to ensure that you are engaging with the said person.

Aya Fubara Eneli (46:31.927)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (46:38.112)
And on the story thing in Yoruba, is, we would say alo, which is story, alo. Yeah. So we say alo, which is, I'm about to tell you a story. And then you will say story, alo. Aha. So that is the essence. And then the story builds by stages. So you say something just like you were saying, which regards to, they will say,

Aya Fubara Eneli (46:44.353)
Story?

Aya Fubara Eneli (46:51.713)
I'll say, la. Okay? Aha.

Adesoji Iginla (47:07.33)
tabak borile, which is if we stay still, what can happen? Then you get a haircut. So people will start inferring what would happen if. So again, it's a part of engaging because like you said, you can't have a preacher standing on a pulpit, just basically talking to a crowd and nobody's responding. might as well just be talking to a wall. So.

the emphasis is engagement. And then one final point, when you said,

Aya Fubara Eneli (47:41.345)
And hold on, you said that, think about that. You know, I'm a teacher. do children and even adults, do we not learn more and retain more when we're engaged?

Adesoji Iginla (47:56.833)
Of course.

Aya Fubara Eneli (47:57.761)
How many of you have sat in front of someone and you go, eh, eh, eh, even now that I'm talking to you, I'm trying to engage you because otherwise for you to just listen to me talking, I think I have a nice voice, but for you to just sit and I'm just talking, just, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, 60 minutes, hey, you will not even remember what I said. So as a teacher, if you really want to engage your students,

Adesoji Iginla (48:05.838)
Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (48:17.378)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (48:27.157)
get them to think, to follow along. You ask questions, you get them involved. Yes, and that engages a lot more of their senses. They're not just using their ear or their eyes, they're using ear, eye, they are speaking, they might be moving, because you know also, don't get us going in our traditional origin. Body movement will now join the thing, you know?

Adesoji Iginla (48:53.27)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Feet tapping. Yeah. Clapping.

Aya Fubara Eneli (48:55.177)
Whatever, yes. We are an expressive people. And I think that is not something that we should be ashamed of. by the time, you know, I'm seeing when I visited some of the schools or, you know, like I said, I was a grandmother, great grandmother to lot of children in my community. My home was always open. You know, if you were someone you needed something, my home was always open, you know.

Adesoji Iginla (49:01.518)
Mmm.

Adesoji Iginla (49:20.11)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (49:24.449)
When they said, sit down, quiet hand, quiet feet, no talking, no this, and you want a child to stay like that for six, seven hours of schooling all day. No wonder the children are getting into trouble. Does that not make sense? Can you sit like this? Are you a piece of wood? You are not. It's actually common sense. And so we need to.

Adesoji Iginla (49:32.81)
or $6.08.

Adesoji Iginla (49:39.406)
Because they're bored. Because they're bored.

Aya Fubara Eneli (49:52.071)
engage in all of these structures and infuse our culture and to show how some of the things that we're accepting as this is how it should be. Like I said with the even how to write poetry and everything. Says who? Says who? Can a child not dance and learn? Hey, go and see the children now with the, what do you people call this thing? The hip hop.

Adesoji Iginla (50:08.588)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (50:12.674)
Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (50:19.295)
You tell me the child can read, but the child can know the whole song from beginning to end. They clearly can learn. We have to engage them in a way that works. Okay. You are about to ask another question. Ask your question.

Adesoji Iginla (50:31.038)
Exactly. So I was going to say, I mean, I was going to highlight the point when you mentioned Ubuntu. I am because you are. In the course of your travels, when you went to the States and you wanted to come back to Africa because you felt that where your calling will be best impacted, you applied for a job in Zambia.

as a professor of literature at the University of Zambia. You got the job and you were on your way and landed in London for a stopover only to get the information that you are not allowed to come into Zambia. Something then happened. You saw

Aya Fubara Eneli (51:03.175)
Hmm. Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (51:10.709)
Mmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (51:20.071)
And tell the story, yes?

Adesoji Iginla (51:22.57)
Yeah, you saw, what's his name, you saw Grace Mugabe. Grace Mugabe was the first wife of Robert Mugabe, who happened to be of Ghanaian descent. And because you had participated in the anti-colonial movement against South Africa, the liberation of Zimbabwe, Namibia, and Mozambique, she said,

Aya Fubara Eneli (51:30.085)
Mmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (51:33.855)
Yes.

Yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli (51:48.595)
Yes. Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (51:51.914)
there's an opening in Zimbabwe. Why don't you apply for it? Again, because you've contributed to making the lives of someone better elsewhere, people were also looking out for you in your time of need. So I just wanted to highlight that particular incident that turned out to be a positive. And then there was another one. And this one is

Aya Fubara Eneli (52:05.139)
Yes. Yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli (52:17.909)
Yes. Did you ever find out why Zambia did not want me to come?

Adesoji Iginla (52:24.502)
So apparently, Kenneth Kaunda, who happened to be Zambia's first president since independence, got leaned on by Daniel Arakmoy to say, do not allow that woman, that's the expression, that woman to come into your country. I don't know why you as an independent country would take advice from a clearly despotic

head of state at that time. So that is one of the reasons for that thing happening. But there was one other thing that, and this is

Aya Fubara Eneli (53:05.161)
Let me first commend you. I'm very impressed by your research and your knowledge of our leaders because that is something that too many of us don't know anymore. And yes, this landscape of politics, things happen, you might not even know why they happened. But these are some of the challenges that I experienced, but like you rightly pointed out.

They were also, for all the doors that closed, for all of the tragedy, and I will tell you about one that really shook me to my core, there were always people also who tried to assist me. Yes, that woman. And of course, you know, even today, you know, I think it was Malcolm X that said it, that...

The Black woman is the most disrespected human on earth, on the face of the earth. Yes, it continues today. Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (54:00.686)
Yeah. so yeah, you raised the book earlier, The Trials of the Dungy Mafi, which is a play she co-directed with Ungugi Wafiungu. The beautiful thing about those two was the fact that Ungugi in his book, Decolonizing the Mind, would say,

Aya Fubara Eneli (54:17.147)
I co-directed.

Adesoji Iginla (54:30.856)
Every morning, they will stop in the corridor and they will talk about history, politics, and literature. They will only break out of that conversation when it was time for class. And they were standing in the corridor right opposite each other's door to go into their offices. So again, those are the kind of call and response. You know someone is there for you.

Aya Fubara Eneli (54:35.009)
All

Aya Fubara Eneli (54:52.033)
Yes, yes.

Adesoji Iginla (55:00.106)
as a sounding board, creating that avenue. What would you say to people who are now, obviously, in the kind of incredible times we live in, that need that kind of sounding board and space? How do we create or recreate that kind of symbiotic relationship you had with Ungugiwa Fiongo?

Aya Fubara Eneli (55:30.945)
That's a very, very insightful question to ask because you know, you don't know everything. You can't, you can't go very far, I suppose, if you're just yourself going. But the journey is better, it's more meaningful, and you're less likely to now be too exposed where calamity hits and you're dead if you're going with other people, you know?

Adesoji Iginla (55:55.96)
Mm-mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (55:56.794)
and Gugi was my dear friend and brother. what I would say to people is you have to be intentional about going to spaces where they may be like-minded people. You have to be intentional and open to engaging with people.

Adesoji Iginla (56:10.701)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (56:25.631)
You have to do your own work in private so that when you open your mouth to talk to people, you have something valuable to say. Because if you open your mouth and you don't know what you are talking,

they might not invite you next time. might, you know, when you see somebody coming, if you see them before they see you, just like duck really quickly because you don't want to be engaged in nonsense conversation. So you have to do your own studying. You know, there are no shortcuts to these things. And, but as you engage with people, it sharpens your mind. You get information you did not have before. You, you're not,

Adesoji Iginla (56:49.006)
Mm-hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (57:08.647)
adversarial, you're helping each other grow, get better, you know? And that opens corridors. And so it was during one of these conversations and we kept saying, we should write something. And first we were going to try and do it via correspondence, but that was a little too difficult. And then we eventually found ourselves in the same area and we traveled together to...

to our ancestors who did did Anki Mati's place. And there were people living who could tell us the stories of who he was as a child and all of that. And then we started to, you know, work together to write back and forth. And one of the most rewarding experiences of my life, and as like I said, I went on to write and contribute to many other books with other writers as well. to answer your question directly.

Adesoji Iginla (57:40.43)
earlier.

Aya Fubara Eneli (58:03.741)
You need to study yourself, have something to offer, and then you need to find where are some like-minded people. You don't have to be in the university, in academia to do this. There are community members, are libraries in the community, and let me tell you, if there are not people gathering to read, then you'll start something.

Adesoji Iginla (58:26.52)
Yeah, great one.

Aya Fubara Eneli (58:28.373)
You start something and don't get discouraged. People will come, people will go, whatever. You stay steadfast in what you're about. That is very important. But of course, now you people with all this technology, you can actually, you know, correspond even with people that are not in your immediate vicinity. But it's very important, very, very important to do, yes.

Adesoji Iginla (58:48.654)
Mmm.

Adesoji Iginla (58:53.038)
So in terms of the culture of writing, how would you advise people to proceed?

Adesoji Iginla (59:06.318)
because everybody has a story to tell.

Aya Fubara Eneli (59:09.395)
Well, this is true, although you have to first be aware that you have a story to tell. So I think that something that greatly contributed to my writing, like I mentioned earlier, was the oral traditions and just hearing those stories. But then it was also reading other writers. I think that to be a...

good writer, it's helpful to also read other writers. And then there's no getting around, you must write. You must write. Not think about writing, not pray about writing, not hope to write.

And you're not necessarily writing because, every line I write is going to be Pulitzer Prize winning, whatever. That is not what should motivate you to write. It should be the telling of a story, the sharpening your own mind by putting your thoughts down on paper. It should be the wanting to leave a legacy for others.

And so you give yourself permission to stop censoring yourself and you just write. Now there might come a time when you write and you realize or someone around you that you share your writing with says, this, you must do more with this. But you know, like poetry, I just wrote.

And when I had a play that I felt needed or story that needed to be told, what better way to tell the stories of our ancestors than through plays.

Adesoji Iginla (01:01:05.591)
Mmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:01:06.529)
can be acted out where the people can come alive to the audience. But then the essays were also about me stretching my mind around a concept or a thought. What do I really think about this? And what is the basis for my belief or my thought or whatever conclusion I've arrived at?

And as you write, you're sharpening yourself. And if you give someone that writing to read and they have some questions for you, then it allows you to even go on and further think. And it is through this process that we're also going to problem solve. Right? So that is what I would share. Now, I'm mindful of the time and I cannot have this conversation with you without speaking about my daughters.

Mumbai and in Jerry.

They were my daughters, but I called them my friends and I called them my comrades. We went through this life, the exile, the concerns and feeding and how we were going to travel and where we were going to live everything. We experienced it all together. And they were my caretakers when I battled cancer the first time.

They were also some of you may have met them anywhere I went to speak won't be an injury Maybe both of them maybe one of them they would be in the back of the room with my books They were the ones who coordinated so much for me wonderful daughters they they imbibed the culture

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:02:59.891)
In fact, some of, know, every person that I was involved with is an auntie, is an uncle, is a sister, is a brother, you know. And some of their aunties and uncles would, when they would talk about my daughter, they were just so impressed about how open in terms of our African hospitality they were. You I raised them to know our culture.

Adesoji Iginla (01:03:21.1)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:03:25.433)
And they took care of me when I was battling cancer the first time. And I even got a bone marrow transplant. such a painful, painful experience. And then I was in remission for a few years.

But you know, cancer, cancer likes when your life is in disarray. Cancer likes when you are stressed out. So message to all of you, find ways to have more of a peaceful existence. so, Jerry ended up with cancer herself, ovarian cancer, when she was teaching in China. And...

Adesoji Iginla (01:03:57.154)
Mm-mm.

Adesoji Iginla (01:04:09.55)
Mmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:04:14.141)
And Jerry died in 2012.

and my mother also passed away around this and I'm telling you it just threw my life into a tailspin and don't you know that cancer came back and it came back this time with a vengeance and so I battled that until

I finally chose to go and meet my ancestors in 2023. But I have no regrets about my life. I have no regrets about being the activist that I was from a young age. And that I consistently lived what I believed.

I received many awards as a result of some of the work I did. I was awarded a Doctor of Letters honorary degree from the University of Nairobi in 2020. I was awarded the Elder of the Burning Spare in 2012. I was awarded the Moalimu Julius Nyerere Distinguished Lecturer Award.

I received the CUNY Women of Distinction Award.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:05:41.858)
other academic distinguished African Insta awards. I was named the Laura J. and L. Douglas Meredith Professor for Teaching Excellence, becoming the first black person at Syracuse University to receive this honor. In Kenya, the East African Standard Century Republication of November 2002 cited me among the top 100 influences in Kenya.

Adesoji Iginla (01:06:09.678)
Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:06:12.145)
during the 20th century. And I have quite a few publications. The Lung Illness of Ex-Chief Kitty, which is a play. The Daughter of My People Sing, my poetry collection. The Trial of De Danke Mati, co-authored with Ngugiwa Tiongo, which was a play.

Visions of Africa, the fiction of Achebe, Margaret Lawrence, Hohti and Ngugi. We all worked together on this. In 1991, I published African Orature and Human Rights. It's a book of essays. In 1994, I published my mother's song and other poems. I also...

Adesoji Iginla (01:06:45.87)
Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:07:07.019)
Wrote the introduction to Ngugiwationgo's Panpoints, Gunpoints, and Dreams. Also wrote various essays and anthologies on African literature and women's writing. And then this was really near and dear to my heart. Writing and speaking from the heart of my mind, which is an autobiographical reflection and speeches of mine.

Aha! I was looking rather beautiful in that color. Yes. And of course, the book I already mentioned, The Imperative of Mbutu in Africana Scholarship. There is also a documentary that was made about me. It's called Making Life Sink in Pursuit of Utu, the Mishere Getai Mugou story.

Adesoji Iginla (01:08:01.646)
to.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:08:05.601)
and it also has a companion book of the same title.

That is just a little about me. How can you sum up a life well lived in just an hour or so? But hopefully your listeners will take from my life that you must take risks in life. You must speak up for what you believe in. Because otherwise, what is the point?

Adesoji Iginla (01:08:37.304)
Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:08:44.117)
You must pursue whatever gifts and talents. And it doesn't matter if you think you're not good at it. Do it anyway. Do it and maybe you become better at it. And even if you don't become great at it, if it brought you pleasure, if it helped you better understand people, if it allowed you to show up.

Adesoji Iginla (01:08:53.43)
Mmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:09:08.001)
to show your capacity to behave in a human way, then it is worth it. So I want to thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today.

Adesoji Iginla (01:09:16.14)
Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (01:09:21.676)
No, thank you. Thank you for coming through. Thank you for coming through. And by that token, we've come to the end of today's episode of Women and Resistance. And we've been listening to Michelle Itamugo. Next week will be the turn of Julia de Bogus. Who is she? We'll find out next week. And

Any final thoughts?

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:09:57.035)
We come from such rich traditions. It is our responsibility to live them and to pass them on.

Adesoji Iginla (01:10:11.406)
And with that, I would just say good night and see you next week.