EP 8 Abbey Lincoln:The Voice of Freedom I Women And Resistance 🌍

In this episode of the Women in Resistance podcast, host Adesoji Iginla engages in a profound conversation with Abbey Lincoln (Aya Fubara Eneli Esq), exploring her life, identity, and the intersection of art and activism. 

Ms Lincoln shares her journey from her early life in Michigan to her experiences in the music industry, her views on feminism, and the significance of cultural heritage. 

The discussion explores the power of music as a form of expression and healing, the complexities of human relationships, and the importance of self-discovery. 

Throughout the conversation, Abbey Lincoln emphasises the divine feminine and the legacy of African American artists, leaving listeners with a message of purpose and empowerment.

Takeaways

*Abbey Lincoln emphasises the divine feminine, stating, "We women, we are gods as well."
*She reflects on the significance of names and identity, sharing her journey of being named Aminata and Moseka.
*Abbey Lincoln discusses the societal pressures of beauty and how it has impacted her career and artistry.
*She highlights the influence of Billie Holiday on her music and personal life.
*Abbey Lincoln shares her experiences in navigating relationships, particularly her marriage to Max Roach.
*She believes in the healing power of music and its role in expressing one's truth.
*Abbey Lincoln discusses her activism and the importance of art in social movements.
*She reflects on her legacy and the impact of her music on future generations.
*Abbey Lincoln emphasises the importance of love and self-regard in overcoming life's challenges.
*She encourages listeners to live with purpose and authenticity. 

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Abelinken and Her Journey
02:23 The Significance of Names and Identity
04:37 Exploring the Divine Feminine
07:00 Early Life and Musical Beginnings
09:00 The Evolution of Abby Lincoln
11:12 Beauty, Talent, and Perception
13:37 Influences and Relationships in Music
15:26 Navigating Fame and Personal Identity
17:29 The Power of Music and Personal Healing
19:40 Cultural Heritage and Artistic Expression
21:38 Reflections on Love and Life
23:41 Conclusion and Legacy
24:20 The Essence of Art in Humanity
25:10 Feminism and Gender Dynamics
27:40 Activism and Cultural Heritage
29:04 The Power of Music and Expression
31:17 Personal Relationships and Identity
33:42 Navigating Fame and Career Choices
38:06 Spirituality and Artistic Evolution
42:20 Legacy and Influence
47:08 Final Reflections and Life Lessons

Welcome  to Women and Resistance, a powerful podcast where we honour the courage, resilience, and revolutionary spirit of women across the globe. Hosted by Aya Fubara Eneli Esq and Adesoji Iginla...

You're listening to Women and Resistance with Aya Fubara Eneli Esq and Adesoji Iginla—where we honour the voices of women who have shaped history through courage and defiance...Now, back to the conversation.

That’s it for this episode of Women and Resistance. Thank you for joining us in amplifying the voices of women who challenge injustice and change the course of history. Be sure to subscribe, share, and continue the conversation. Together We Honour the past, act in the present, and shape the future. Until next time, stay inspired and stay in resistance!

Transcript

Adesoji Iginla (00:02.274)
Yes, greetings, greetings and welcome to Women in Resistance podcast. And I am your host, Adesuji Ginla, with me as co-host and the spirit behind the entire thing. My sister from another mother, Ayafubara Nely Esquire. How are you sister?

Adesoji Iginla (00:27.286)
Yes, and today we journey through the life and legacy of Abelinken. And without further ado, we do have Abelinken in the house. And let's not take too much time and get her to give us a snippet of who she really is. And then if we do have questions, we throw that matter. Yes, good evening.

Aya Fubara Eneli (00:57.918)
Good evening. It's a pleasure to be here.

Adesoji Iginla (01:01.482)
Okay, and thank you, thank you for joining us. You go by many names, but I would allow you do us the honor. What should we call you?

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:17.928)
Well, of course my stage name is Abbe Lincoln. My African name is Amenata Moseka. And that was a name that was given to me when I traveled to Guinea and Zaire with my dear friend and sister, Miriam Mekiba. I understand that you've had an opportunity to speak with her as well.

Adesoji Iginla (01:23.039)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (01:48.078)
Yes, that's the case.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:49.17)
and this was in the 70s right after I left my marriage to Max Roach and I'll tell you more about that or you can ask me more about that later but in Guinea I was introduced to the head of state, Secretary Ray, Miriam Makeba at that time was working for the government

Adesoji Iginla (01:58.211)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (02:17.831)
and I was given the name Amenata.

Aya Fubara Eneli (02:25.342)
and I'm in that as I understand it Most of us pray at least from the Christian faith and we say amen And if you study Egyptian cosmology You know that There was what we call a pharaoh now a ruler known as tutak

And that is really where that name comes from. And Amenata is the female version. And it's really an embodiment of God. And then when I was in Zaire, the minister of information who spoke French, you know, in terms of the European languages he spoke, he named me Moseca.

Adesoji Iginla (03:00.92)
tough. Okay. Okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli (03:18.202)
and he had to, you know, share this through Miriam. He told me that Moseka was a god of love in the form of a maiden. He didn't tell me it was a goddess and I knew then that I had come home because I know that God is a god male and female.

Adesoji Iginla (03:18.467)
Meaning?

Adesoji Iginla (03:21.998)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (03:31.438)
Mmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (03:48.976)
I do not worship any man.

Aya Fubara Eneli (03:54.278)
I do not worship man as God alone. I'm the one. It's me and God. We women, we are gods as well. We are the ones who make the baby. Women need to be ashamed of themselves for buying into this notion of God being male.

Adesoji Iginla (04:05.39)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (04:23.164)
and then that they who actually bring forth life, we clone the baby, the babies are made within us. Then you birth the baby and then you turn around and bow down to a man and worship him as God, but deny the God within you? That's crazy. In fact, there's a poem, I was gonna save it for later, but seeing as we're here,

Adesoji Iginla (04:52.302)
you

Aya Fubara Eneli (04:54.204)
I am many things. I'm a singer, I'm an actress, I'm a composer, I'm a poet, I'm a painter, I'm an artist in every form of artistry.

And I wrote a poem called, Where Are the African Gods? May I share it with you?

Adesoji Iginla (05:20.142)
Please do, please do.

Aya Fubara Eneli (05:24.038)
Where are the African gods? Will we know them when they suddenly appear? The ones dismissed with voodoo, rock and roll, and all that jazz and jungle mumble jumbo and razzmatazz? Where are the African gods? The ones who live within the skin, within the skin, without skin, and in the skin again?

Do they hide among the shadows while we stumble along the way? Or did they go with heaven to prepare another day? Where are the African gods? Who will save us from this misery and shame? Where are the African gods? Will we find them when we pray in Jesus' name?

Where are the African gods who live and set us free?

We are the African gods.

We are you and me.

Adesoji Iginla (06:41.858)
Thank you. Thank you.

Aya Fubara Eneli (06:42.194)
So coming back to my names, you may call me Amenata Moseka because that really encapsulates who I see myself as and how I have chosen to live in the world.

The Bible says, believe it's the first commandment, you shall have no other gods before me. You are God. So how is it that you are worshiping somebody else's God made in their image?

That is the root of all of our problems as African people. We are the only people who abandon ourselves, our gods, to chase after and seek what salvation from somebody else's god.

Adesoji Iginla (07:40.686)
Thank

Aya Fubara Eneli (07:45.502)
can you then be free? But of course I had other names. I was born, I was the 10th of 12 children and I was born Anna Marie Wooldridge on August 6th 1930 in Chicago, Illinois. But I was raised in rural Calvin Center in Cass County, Michigan.

My father built the house we lived in with his own hands.

Aya Fubara Eneli (08:25.17)
When I was about five years old, we had a piano in the house and I would just go in, I knew a song.

Aya Fubara Eneli (08:38.888)
way in a manger and I would go and I taught myself how to play the song I taught myself the pauses between the notes and nobody stopped me I suppose it didn't bother my mother or my father and if it had bothered them one of my older siblings would have stopped me but nobody stopped me

There were two churches in our town, the town that we lived in at that time.

Aya Fubara Eneli (09:13.914)
and we went to the African Methodist Church.

There was no way my father, with as hard as he worked, was gonna have us bring some white man and hang up on our wall and say that's the God we were worshiping. And I would sing in church and I would sing at school.

Adesoji Iginla (09:38.328)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (09:45.214)
may have been around 10 years old. My parents had been married, I think, for almost about 30 years. When?

Aya Fubara Eneli (09:56.35)
They moved. And my mother initially moved with my father. All of us moved. But she couldn't take it anymore. And she asked for a divorce. Went to court and got her divorce. But in that divorce, she did not ask for my father to pay a penny.

Adesoji Iginla (10:18.316)
Why?

Aya Fubara Eneli (10:21.208)
she knew that man. I think if she had, and if he had been forced by the government to pay anything, that man was liable to show up at the doorstep and unleash his anger on somebody. And we moved back from the city to where we lived previously in rural Calvin Center. And we about starved to death that winter.

Adesoji Iginla (10:37.08)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (10:55.006)
So it's this like a hippie family or something like that. And they brought us 20 rabbits. And that's how we ate and survived that winter. Cause my father, you know, he provided for the family. He worked, he provided for the family. And when we moved back, everything was on my mother's shoulders. She had to figure it all out in the winter time.

and

The other black families in the town, they were upset with my mother. That was not a common thing to get divorced at that time. They wouldn't help us. And eventually my mother moved us to Kalamazoo and we did get some government assistance. And I continued to sing at the high school there. Mr. Shanry was our band director.

Adesoji Iginla (11:34.548)
Okay. So we're ostracized.

Aya Fubara Eneli (11:56.325)
And, but I knew I wasn't going to college. That was just not for me. And shortly after I graduated from high school, my older brother who lived in California came to visit to check on my mother. And he took me back with him to California. And that's where I started singing in some of the nightclubs.

Adesoji Iginla (12:25.55)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (12:25.73)
And then came the names. At one point I was called Gabby Lee, at one point it was Annemarie Woodridge, and then at one point it was Gabby Annemarie. It was just, you know, they wanted me to have this French sounding names. And I said.

Adesoji Iginla (12:44.268)
Mm.

you

Aya Fubara Eneli (12:48.112)
Anna Marie is as French as it gets. Of course, Woodridge is as English as it gets. Woodbridge, Woolridge, Woolridge. But eventually, I met a man who became my manager, and Russell, and...

Adesoji Iginla (12:56.204)
Wondered.

Aya Fubara Eneli (13:15.622)
In conversation with him, we came up with the name, really he came up with the name Abby Lincoln. Abby from Westminster Abbey.

Adesoji Iginla (13:27.842)
Okay, cool, okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli (13:31.002)
And Lincoln, because he was a man who was very socially aware, and he said, well, since Lincoln didn't free the slaves, maybe you can, Abby. And so that is where I got the name Lincoln from. And I became Abby Lincoln. That became my stage name.

Adesoji Iginla (13:45.078)
Mmm.

Adesoji Iginla (13:57.292)
Okay, interesting.

Aya Fubara Eneli (13:59.91)
And back then, you know, I was singing mostly covers of other people's music.

Aya Fubara Eneli (14:09.852)
I released my first album and the cover of that album, my goodness, it was so provocative. Cleavage and everything else, tight dresses, all of that. That was the image that I thought I needed to have to be successful.

But you know, you know, for all my adult life I've been known as a beautiful woman and I'm certainly grateful for that. Although I am acutely aware that beauty is within and not so much what you look like on the outside. But growing up, I remember being 14 years old and just wondering if I would ever be beautiful like my older sisters were. And my mother knew that I...

had these thoughts because she saw the kids make fun of me and make fun of my features. And she said, don't worry, you're going to be beautiful like your sister Betty in a few more years. And it really just cooled me out. So I've been known as a beautiful woman all my life on the stage. But because of that physical beauty,

Adesoji Iginla (15:13.486)
You

Aya Fubara Eneli (15:24.51)
People discounted my talent because if you look a certain way, you're not supposed to be talented You're not supposed to I guess have brain cells You're supposed to be really stupid

Adesoji Iginla (15:38.03)
Nope.

Aya Fubara Eneli (15:39.672)
And some of that reaction from the world really has inspired my writing and the expansiveness of how I've lived. had to write because it's the thing that kept me sane and secure. Or I might have just gone mad with just the messages that you get from the world.

Adesoji Iginla (16:04.909)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (16:10.63)
So I sang in California and then I had an opportunity to go to Honolulu to sing. And it was there that I met Billie Holiday. I understand you have also spoken with her.

Adesoji Iginla (16:21.646)
Okay.

Adesoji Iginla (16:29.42)
Yes, we have. Yes, yes, yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli (16:31.958)
and I was, I think about 23 years old at the time, and she would come to the clubs where I sang and just watch me. You know, Billie Holiday was the most beautiful woman I've ever seen.

physically striking. She was a queen without her queen dome, without her quartz.

Adesoji Iginla (17:01.207)
Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (17:04.784)
And contrary to the lies that are being told about her, Billie Holiday was the consummate professional. She did not come onto the stage with a cigarette or with alcohol.

When she got on that stage, she was consummate storyteller. She never tried to be anything that she wasn't. She sang and she spoke her passion into the words. It was a conversation when Billie sang. She would sometimes talk you through the message. She was the queen of her generation, and I would say of our times.

Adesoji Iginla (17:33.326)
and

Aya Fubara Eneli (17:50.014)
Billie was the only one of all the women back then of the jazz era who were considered queens who had the courage to sing Strange Fruit. And of course we know it cost her to yell. And yes, she had, you know, what we would call our demons, but that was her way of numbing the pain.

Adesoji Iginla (18:03.854)
Thanks

Aya Fubara Eneli (18:14.172)
because she suffered a lot of abuse, which I'm sure you covered when you talked about her.

Adesoji Iginla (18:17.966)
Yeah, we did.

Aya Fubara Eneli (18:25.576)
But Billie Holiday and I became friends and she would give me advice and...

Aya Fubara Eneli (18:40.081)
I remember.

Aya Fubara Eneli (19:02.12)
But I'll tell you about my pedigree. I consider myself royalty. You know, of all my mother's 12 children, my parents had dignity. They raised us to have dignity. They only had to say something once. We were obedient children.

Aya Fubara Eneli (19:27.914)
And I never really had very close friends in what they call jazz. You know, that's not what we called our music. That's the name they gave it. And you know, initially jazz was seen as, you know, that music played in brothels and things like that, you know, music for the low lives.

Aya Fubara Eneli (19:50.066)
But I never really had too many close friends within the jazz world because there was a lifestyle that accompanied it. And I was not going to be for the streets.

So, know, one of my brothers ended up being a judge. One of my brothers was a VP for a major corporation. We were serious minded people. weren't, you know, none of us went to jail. None of us did drugs. None of us got into that lifestyle. That's how we were raised. And I always had that sense about myself of who I am, regardless of the music.

Adesoji Iginla (20:28.014)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (20:35.474)
that I make and what might surround it. When I ended up moving to New York,

and I met Max Roach.

I also met Leolonia's monk. I met Duke Ellington when I was in Honolulu. I met some of the great Louis Armstrong. These were masters of their art.

Adesoji Iginla (21:02.614)
Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (21:05.214)
and I had an opportunity to really learn from Max and to really understand the music as an artist.

Aya Fubara Eneli (21:18.767)
end

Aya Fubara Eneli (21:23.346)
You know, I'd acted in a number of films. And in my first film, I wore a dress that Marilyn Monroe had worn. I was actually photographed in that dread dress on the cover of Ebony Magazine.

Adesoji Iginla (21:41.132)
in magazine.

Aya Fubara Eneli (21:43.676)
And I was really proud of that dress and I wore it to different events. And one time Mark Schroder said, you don't have to dress like that. I didn't have to sell my art with my body.

And that made sense to me. And I said, you know, I know who I am and I don't have to wear hand-me-downs either. And so I took that dress and I threw it in the incinerator. I was done with that dress.

Adesoji Iginla (22:02.414)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (22:15.918)
And one day, you we were at a club and there were all these, you know, jazz artists and other folk. And I just noticed how the black men just couldn't keep their eyes off the white women.

And I said, what is this? What is this about? And one of the responses I got was, well, you know what it's about. You all straighten your hair to look like them.

Adesoji Iginla (22:46.68)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (22:51.006)
And that was it for me.

I said, I can wear my hair like God gave it to me.

my hair. I started wearing my afro. Some people argue about who was the first to do it. I don't get into all of those kind of things because it's actually unimportant. You know, I don't.

I'm talking to you and yes, I've given a lot of interviews. I never did finish my autobiography Although my archives at Rutgers University, and I believe there's a book coming out on me next year But I'm not really interested in everyone knowing everything about my life

Adesoji Iginla (23:30.348)
Yeah, yeah, that's the case.

Adesoji Iginla (23:39.692)
Why so?

Aya Fubara Eneli (23:43.122)
I didn't come to the stage to be popular and to be known.

Aya Fubara Eneli (23:53.118)
came to save me from the grief of living here.

Aya Fubara Eneli (24:01.694)
And there's a lot of grief here. There's a lot of pain in this world. So I sing songs about my life that helped me to live. I don't have to go to a therapist.

Adesoji Iginla (24:20.589)
Hmm

Aya Fubara Eneli (24:22.28)
can write it down and remember where I've been. I can heal from within. But my songs are a way for me to process and to cope with this life. And so I gravitate to songs that help me live because if you sing, you pay attention to this.

Adesoji Iginla (24:36.664)
your experiences.

Aya Fubara Eneli (24:50.426)
I really want your listeners, your viewers to hear this because you know...

Aya Fubara Eneli (24:58.45)
The most common theme in music, in whatever genre, is love and sex, if you will.

Aya Fubara Eneli (25:07.87)
And I can't speak for you men, I guess I could, but there a lot of sad love songs. You know, I remember, you know, singing some Billie Holiday songs and it cost me a lot.

Aya Fubara Eneli (25:26.556)
and she's singing about her man. Two or three girls has he that he likes as well as me.

Aya Fubara Eneli (25:40.338)
He beats me too. What can I do? You can leave. And I used to sing those songs, but you have to understand this. If you sing something over and over, if you say something over and over, and if you set it to music, it really is a prayer.

Adesoji Iginla (26:10.542)
Mmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (26:11.972)
It goes up into the atmosphere and it'll bring you the return of what you've been saying.

Adesoji Iginla (26:15.254)
and becomes a thing.

Aya Fubara Eneli (26:22.384)
So I'm not going to. I couldn't once I had that understanding. Keep singing.

Aya Fubara Eneli (26:33.384)
heartbreak and sickness and illness and doom and gloom into my life. Words have power and you set it to music. And that prayer, that energy brings back fruit. The reason the African American people have music is because our ancestors practiced it.

Music and dance! Woo!

We brought that here. We inherited it. Like we inherited our hair and our skin color.

It's in us, the ability to express yourself.

And by golly, I was going to set my hair free. And I did. We actually, I actually even organized a hair extravaganza. was a whole fashion show showcasing us with our natural hair. And wouldn't you know that the hairdressers, the beauticians were mad at me. They said I was going to cost them their businesses.

Aya Fubara Eneli (27:53.202)
because their business was to straighten our hair. And here you are saying you don't have to do that.

But yes, and even in my wedding photos with Max, I had my afro, I had my natural hair.

Now speaking of my relationship with Max, Max Roach was a master musician.

Aya Fubara Eneli (28:23.05)
And you know, I started working with him. We were married from 1962 to 1970, but I started working with him before then. And we were in an intimate relationship and he was married. And I didn't care anything about his marriage or his wife.

See?

I'm a polygamous woman.

Adesoji Iginla (28:50.581)
OK.

Aya Fubara Eneli (28:54.236)
And the way it used to be, his wife actually would have been helping him to get together the resources to pay my bride price.

Aya Fubara Eneli (29:07.473)
in Africa.

Adesoji Iginla (29:08.782)
Okay, okay, okay. You guys are gonna laugh.

Aya Fubara Eneli (29:14.855)
wives and that you help your husband yes we don't have to be at loggerheads and I actually helped to raise his daughter Maxine. Maxine ended up performing on quite a few of my albums.

Aya Fubara Eneli (29:32.478)
But let me tell you this thing about marriage.

You know what? I'll come back to that.

Let me get back to the music.

I believe that songs, some people ask me, know, do songs have the power to change or do they at least help?

And my response is, don't do music for that reason. I certainly don't do it for the money. Listen, at the time that I walked away from my marriage to Max Roach, I also walked away from my career. We were the power couple. There was a documentary on Max and Abby. We had a commercial, Max and Abby. We were selling products and things.

Adesoji Iginla (30:20.641)
I'll be.

Aya Fubara Eneli (30:24.688)
And when I said I'd had enough...

I left the marriage and I left my career.

Aya Fubara Eneli (30:34.694)
and I left town.

Aya Fubara Eneli (30:38.972)
And I lived above these garages and just three rooms. And I started writing and painting and reading. And then I took my trip to Africa with my friend, Miriam. But I do music for my own spirit. I believe that God made us and God made the world and God has to fix this world.

And God might yet use us as gods to fix the world. I'm not trying to change anything. It's the creator's world. And if all of this chaos is all right with God, I'm going to find my peace some kind of way. I get sad. I don't know where we're going through. I don't know why we're going through all of this. I don't know what we did as African people before this time.

that has visited this type of misery and shame on us.

Aya Fubara Eneli (32:05.534)
Sometimes I cry, I have to let it out.

Aya Fubara Eneli (32:12.282)
All we have to depend on is love.

Aya Fubara Eneli (32:19.634)
You have some regard for yourself and the people that you know. And we all deserve some love. The arts are the expression of the great human, Holy Spirit. That is love. Through the arts, through technology, through the sciences.

Adesoji Iginla (32:24.526)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (32:44.53)
They talk about Egypt all the time. As a matter of fact, for those of you in the United States, get your paper money out.

It's Egypt. It's the pyramids on your money. They talk about Egypt all the time without talking about Egypt. It's because, but why do we talk about Egypt? Because the artists did the work.

Adesoji Iginla (33:03.534)
projects.

Adesoji Iginla (33:10.158)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (33:11.806)
When you go now and you see the Medinetcher, you still see those drawings. The artists did the work. The artists created that house that's on that money.

By the way, a pet peeve of mine. You know the lies they tell us. Let me see if you can finish this sentence. Money doesn't grow.

Adesoji Iginla (33:37.003)
on trees.

Aya Fubara Eneli (33:43.132)
I get so mad when I hear that. How do you look me in the face and tell me such a bold face lie?

Aya Fubara Eneli (33:59.838)
Print it on.

Adesoji Iginla (34:01.282)
paper.

Adesoji Iginla (34:06.04)
trees.

Adesoji Iginla (34:14.19)
You

Aya Fubara Eneli (34:21.714)
Without art, we would not be human.

Aya Fubara Eneli (34:29.11)
All human beings practice art. All of them. Now some human beings like to copy the art of others, but all human beings practice art. They have music. They dance. They create and make things. Women create the people. Men build the bridges. Here's another thing that gets on my nerves. There's a book. this one. Soundtrack to a Movement.

and they have a couple of pages in here about me. And I read something they said in here.

just had me about to climb a wall.

Aya Fubara Eneli (35:14.608)
Let me see if I can find it.

Aya Fubara Eneli (35:21.498)
Okay, I might not be able to find it immediately, but they had the nerve to say something about, I'm a feminist.

Adesoji Iginla (35:32.163)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (35:36.402)
Did I ever tell you that I'm a feminist? As a matter of fact, that whole notion of feminism makes no sense to me.

Adesoji Iginla (35:38.186)
mention the word.

Aya Fubara Eneli (35:53.448)
think.

Aya Fubara Eneli (35:57.298)
that because of how men have operated in our more recent history, women have had these resentments. And white women in particular, but now increasingly even black women, haven't been women enough to speak about it until just now.

Aya Fubara Eneli (36:26.064)
And so they want to talk about feminism and the exclusion of men. How is that possible? We work together. We need the female and we need the male. There were times I got invited to, know, will you do an all women's this and all of that and their formations that I've been a part of in terms of activism. But I said, no, we must come together.

Adesoji Iginla (36:36.814)
Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (36:55.1)
So don't listen to anyone who would try to rewrite my story now and say, she's a feminist.

Adesoji Iginla (37:00.686)
She was a five minutes.

Aya Fubara Eneli (37:04.862)
That's not what I'm about. And as for women, I'll say this.

Aya Fubara Eneli (37:18.236)
Your body, your decision, yes. Keep your dress down.

Aya Fubara Eneli (37:29.384)
did we start feeling the need in a sexualized world? And I understand this because I told you how I started to feel that you could only dance and sing if you were naked or half naked. Now understand that we're in different times, but in the times that we're in now, why is that what we feel like we have to do? And let me also say this. I am opposed to abortion.

Adesoji Iginla (38:03.918)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (38:04.69)
You can't kill the babies and justify it. You have to attack the reasons people feel that they can't have their babies and can't raise their babies. That's the issue you attack.

Adesoji Iginla (38:22.008)
the action itself.

Aya Fubara Eneli (38:22.098)
But you can't just kill the babies.

Aya Fubara Eneli (38:28.68)
so much that I want to say. I am an actress and I am a woman. More than anything, I am female and I'm very proud to be female. Female of our species, yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (38:52.87)
And I revel in being a woman.

Aya Fubara Eneli (39:03.044)
Now, going back to my marriage with Max. Stay with me. Hopefully you are following the story.

Adesoji Iginla (39:11.5)
Yep, yep.

Aya Fubara Eneli (39:13.628)
We recorded quite a few albums together.

February 15th, 1961, I, along with Rosa Guy, Maya Angelou, and some other women, we had formed a group called the Cultural Association of Women of African Heritage. And we organized a demonstration at the United Nations. We protested the assassination of Patrice Lumumba.

If you have not had a chance to listen to the seminal work, Freedom Suite, now that I did with Max Roach, what we did, and we could have started earlier, but we started with slavery and we went through the emancipation, the civil rights movement, and we brought it up to the African independence movement. Because all of these things are connected.

Adesoji Iginla (40:13.304)
bit.

Aya Fubara Eneli (40:17.598)
Of course we could have taken it all the way back to Egypt as well.

Aya Fubara Eneli (40:23.56)
Some people thought it was really radical, but there were about 60 of us women and men. We stormed United Nations Security Council, because someone had to speak up for what they did to our brother Patrice Lumumba. And if you don't know that story, but I believe you do, because I believe you also had a conversation with Andre Bluene.

Adesoji Iginla (40:48.212)
It's Android, Android will be.

Aya Fubara Eneli (40:51.964)
You see the connectivity.

Adesoji Iginla (40:53.58)
And yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (41:02.588)
We burst into that council chamber shouting, murderous, assassins. And many credit that action with the opening salvo of what was now called the Black Power Movement. A little different, but a continuation of the Civil Rights Movement, which was sparked by the lynching of Emmett Till.

Adesoji Iginla (41:08.366)
You killed him.

Adesoji Iginla (41:29.398)
See you.

Aya Fubara Eneli (41:36.232)
That album.

Aya Fubara Eneli (41:40.164)
one that you all need to listen to if you haven't and there was a particular song on it where all I had to do was scream but that wasn't my usual way of life I'd had really no reason to go through life screaming if I did I did that was not how I chose to respond to my challenges and Max came up to me and he said

Adesoji Iginla (41:59.075)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (43:51.442)
You know, as an actress, I am.

I live my music, my lyrics. believe that people should understand your words and I bring all of that ability, that ability to act to the stage with me even when I sing. And when I started to write my own songs and eventually to compose, it allowed me to embody the fullness of who I am on the stage. could bring everything.

You know, all my abilities as an artist.

And you know how I came to start composing? I released an album and I'd worked with Thelonious Monk and Max had reached out to different people to write reviews, some words about the album and the liners. He'd reached out to Ruby Dee and Ossie Davies. Have you all talked to Ruby Dee yet? my goodness.

Adesoji Iginla (44:34.606)
Stay still.

Adesoji Iginla (44:57.012)
Not yet. Not yet.

Aya Fubara Eneli (45:00.806)
magnificent woman but and Thelonious Monk wrote that I wasn't just a singer I was a composer and when I read that and read it again I believe

Adesoji Iginla (45:15.662)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (45:24.518)
and I started composing my own music as well.

Aya Fubara Eneli (45:32.07)
And so Max and I continue to make music together. We're now husband and wife. spoke at universities and the like.

but

Aya Fubara Eneli (45:50.342)
I must say, I don't want to live in a house with a man.

I want him to live in his own house and come see me sometime when he's in a good mood.

Aya Fubara Eneli (46:12.35)
You know, I used to talk to these journalists, sometimes it's these white men covering the jazz scene as they called it. And I would regale them with the joys of polygamy. And you could just see the look of confusion on their faces. But I meant every word I said. I meant every word I said. I think.

Adesoji Iginla (46:27.672)
That face.

Aya Fubara Eneli (46:42.578)
That it's hard for a man and a woman to be together when they're under the gun in society. That's what my song, Nothing But A Man is. That's what that song is about. See, a man wants to show everybody he's the biggest and the baddest. That's just kind of how you guys are wired.

Adesoji Iginla (46:51.949)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (47:14.586)
If he can't be that in greater society, then he comes home and he wants to be the king of the hill. And sometimes that is expensive to a woman. Him feeling beat down out there requires him to come and only feel big and bad at

Adesoji Iginla (47:18.755)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (47:31.842)
Mmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (47:42.268)
the expense of a woman who he has to then make smaller.

Adesoji Iginla (47:49.486)
Okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli (47:50.02)
especially if she's got a mind of her own and if she's got something going for herself.

Even though I had this famous romanticized marriage, I thought, Lord, I can't do this because it's a lie. It wasn't that I didn't love him.

I'm thinking about Tina Turner singing What's Love Got To Do With It. I loved Max. Max is a great man and he was a fantastic father.

Aya Fubara Eneli (48:31.302)
just couldn't handle that anymore.

Aya Fubara Eneli (48:37.694)
And so I left. I left my career as well. I went to California in 1971 and I lived with my mother in a $70 a month Los Angeles apartment to cleanse my spirit. And I supposed to expiate my guilt.

I hated the rigors of acting. My ornery ways were not welcome in Hollywood. I was actually offered an opportunity to appear in the movie, The Owl and the Pussycat. So you know I did the movie with Sidney Poitier, For the Love of Ivy.

Adesoji Iginla (49:10.786)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (49:24.622)
Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (49:28.126)
How many of you have watched For the Love of Ivy? It's still readily available. That was a fun movie to make. And you know, at this point, it's like I was at the height of my career and you know, I was supposed to now make more movies, but I was not about to grovel and beg and be these things. You know, they're always wanting to cast black women as maids.

Adesoji Iginla (49:55.628)
typecast.

Aya Fubara Eneli (49:56.666)
And in the love for Ivy, love of Ivy, I wasn't made. But the movie, the film centered around me. And the white family I served, they were actually the supporting cast, if you will.

Adesoji Iginla (50:02.826)
one with a mind of her own.

Adesoji Iginla (50:13.642)
Extras.

Aya Fubara Eneli (50:22.056)
black women slaving for black families. White women who hadn't cut an onion in 10 years didn't know the first thing about their children or their husband if that maid wasn't there.

But that movie focused on who I was as a human being who had decided I don't want to be a maid anymore. And these white people who proclaimed to love me could not imagine that I could aspire to a life beyond serving them. Surely I had to be happy. Surely that had to have been my wildest dream because I lived in a nice home and they even had a pool. What else could I be looking for?

Anyway, so the producer for this movie, The Owl and the Pussycat, called me on the phone.

Aya Fubara Eneli (51:22.204)
And I ended up quote unquote losing the part because the producer felt I was rude to him.

Aya Fubara Eneli (51:31.326)
I, when I left New York and headed to Los Angeles, I was haunted by the contradictions of my history with Max.

a subservient wife at home who screamed for freedom on the stage.

Adesoji Iginla (51:57.858)
hmmm, the easy in the two cannot be balanced

Aya Fubara Eneli (52:03.932)
couldn't balance it. There may be many who do. Maybe they balance it with drugs and alcohol as well. But the two didn't add up to me. I couldn't be one thing out here and needing to be something else in my home because that's what my man demanded of me for him to feel like the biggest and the baddest.

Adesoji Iginla (52:32.216)
King of the hill.

Aya Fubara Eneli (52:35.678)
After I moved to Los Angeles, I supported myself for about a decade with just occasional acting jobs, nightclub appearances, and I did some different TV appearances. I was on Mission Impossible, All in the Family, you know, shows like that. But I also...

and I had different nightclub appearances, but I also spent a year as a Pan-African lecturer at what is now called Cal State Northridge.

Adesoji Iginla (53:07.372)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (53:11.368)
But I was also writing, reading and writing the whole time. Of course, that was during the period where I also traveled to Africa and really got more in touch with my roots, who I am as an African woman. You know, when I think about it.

Aya Fubara Eneli (53:33.106)
think I've been hiding over the years and a little apprehensive of stardom.

Aya Fubara Eneli (53:44.786)
When I look back over my multiple identities and my abrupt, what people consider abrupt career detours, I suppose I would as well, it scares me. Stardom scares me, it still does. Because it has a way of sucking you in if you're not careful. Of taking over who you are. And you lose...

Adesoji Iginla (54:05.656)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (54:14.044)
the spirit of the art. Because you're always chasing that next hit, that applause.

Adesoji Iginla (54:19.97)
next fix.

Aya Fubara Eneli (54:28.426)
And I left my time away from that pressure because I like practicing the arts and I like having time to practice them. And to do that, you have to have solitude.

Adesoji Iginla (54:46.614)
Hmm

Aya Fubara Eneli (54:52.6)
So I had some sporadic recordings for Japanese and European labels from 1973 to 1985. And I got a call from Jean-Philippe Allard. And that began a whole renaissance, if you will, of my career when I began recording with Verve.

And I'm actually, I think, going to share a song from one of the albums from those years. The result from that first call in 1989 was The World Is Falling Down, my critically acclaimed album that came out in 1990. It also featured Jackie McLean on saxophone. Clark Terry was on trumpet.

and then I released You Gotta Pay the Band in late 1991 and that really catapulted me back into the spotlight if you will. It also featured some of the last recordings of tenor sax player Stan Getz and most of that

work was written and arranged by me and so it really showcased my talents not just as a writer and a singer but also as a composer.

Adesoji Iginla (56:22.082)
Thank you.

Aya Fubara Eneli (56:34.672)
Yeah, you would just have to go and there's so much that I could cover with you. I redid my first, the first song that I wrote, I believe, which is People and Me, which was originally published in 1973.

Adesoji Iginla (56:46.85)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (56:55.302)
And then I did the legend of Ibalina Kofi, which is loosely based on my mother as a cosmic visitor. And some would say this kind of alluded to my metaphysical beliefs.

And I think that my writing is evolving and moving more towards an expression of spiritual concerns.

and, what, what would those, you know, what, what is my form of spirituality? If you will, certainly I was influenced by my Christian faith, you know, growing up in an African Methodist church, but also I Ching and Egyptian cosmology. And I don't think that we have to draw these lines.

Aya Fubara Eneli (57:54.672)
It's interesting that in 2025,

Aya Fubara Eneli (58:04.7)
The issues that we raised in Freedom Now Suite are as relevant as ever.

Aya Fubara Eneli (58:19.368)
So there is a song of mine that has become quite popular. I'm going to not sing the whole thing, but I will just give you a little bit more of a glimpse of how I view life, how I view love. But you know, there's a young woman who recently did...

a show I want to say at the Lincoln Center called the Towel of Abby Lincoln. Towel just, you know, a word for philosophy. And I have over 60, probably closer to 80 published songs, you know, songs that I've written. And I also have a book of poems. I wrote poetry all the time. I also paint it. I have my paintings as well.

But I think this song, not I think I know this song, captures...

Aya Fubara Eneli (59:27.514)
my sense of how we live or how we should live.

Adesoji Iginla (59:34.35)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (59:37.594)
I think about the life I live, a figure made of clay. And think about the things I lost, the things I gave away. And when I'm in a certain mood, I search the halls and look. One night I found these magic words.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:00:12.048)
throw it away

You can throw it away, give your love, live your life each and every day. And keep your hand wide open and let the sun shine through. Cause you could never lose a thing if it belongs to you.

No, you could never lose a thing if it belongs to you.

Adesoji Iginla (01:00:47.298)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:01:02.76)
That's how I live my life.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:01:07.024)
And there many other songs. Bird Alone, Down Here Below, Being Me, The World Is Falling Down Because It Certainly Is, Talking To The Sun, Learning How To Listen. I even wrote lyrics to Monk's song, Blue Monk.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:01:30.65)
And I have a song that I did Africa. Some say I wrote the lyrics to Coltrane's Africa, but there's a slight difference. But the gift of music is the magic of the world. It is a discipline that increases understanding and expresses the spirit of the human being.

thank God and my ancestors for the music. And when I got recognized by the National Endowment for the Arts, I thanked them for their encouragement as well. I thank all of those who've influenced me over the years. There's always that genealogy. You gotta go back and look at the genealogy. You look at

Billie Holiday and you look at Bessie Smith, you know I listen to Ella Fitzgerald, I listen to Sarah Vaughan. You have to look at the jazz great Benny Carter, right? Of course I've talked about Max Roach but Theodore Neils Munch, I've gotta tell you about Miles Davis, ooh.

Adesoji Iginla (01:02:47.832)
Give brown.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:02:50.478)
Sonny Rollins, Eric Dolphy, Coleman Hawkins, Jackie McClink, so many of them. Maggie Brown.

Adesoji Iginla (01:02:56.076)
Maggie Brown.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:03:01.8)
I'm gonna tell two stories and I'm gonna end.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:03:17.712)
artists or human beings. Understand that artists are human beings.

You know, I was in Japan and I was supposed to travel with, you know, someone who was going to accompany me, but last minute she couldn't go, whatever the reasons. I went anyway, but I had to then find musicians to work with me while I was there. And Miles Davis was there. And I asked Miles if he could lend me, you know, a drummer.

And Miles not only sent over his drummer, he sent over two, three other musicians as well to accompany me. And he eventually came himself.

Adesoji Iginla (01:03:54.879)
Bye.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:04:07.826)
and I'm looking at miles.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:04:13.084)
and I could tell he wasn't well.

Adesoji Iginla (01:04:15.715)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:04:18.428)
And Miles was so generous and people were always taking advantage of his generosity.

and I saw him surrounded by a sea of people.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:04:38.238)
But Miles was alone.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:04:48.84)
This next story I'm not proud of, but it happened. I might as well tell it.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:05:12.294)
The show must go on, that's what we say, right?

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:05:26.812)
I off the stage and my backup is singing the songs that I would have sang. And I said, no, I gotta get out there and I gotta finish it. They came to hear me.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:05:46.684)
singing and my heart is beating out of my chest and I'm hot.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:05:56.09)
and I just started ripping the clothes off of me.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:06:09.564)
and I'm walking through the audience and I just...

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:06:23.504)
and I was carried out on a stretcher by paramedics.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:06:46.27)
But I'm grateful, I'm grateful, I'm grateful that I got to live as long as I got to live.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:06:58.728)
lived on the face of this earth till I was almost 80 years old. I died on August 14th.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:07:19.558)
I'm just thinking about these dates. So I had open heart surgery in 2007.

Adesoji Iginla (01:07:22.168)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:07:34.714)
That was the same year that Max Roach died. He died on August 16, 2007.

Adesoji Iginla (01:07:41.673)
Seven, yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:07:45.542)
I never quite recovered from my open heart surgery. I never really got my strength back.

I still did another album that shows when I was 78, 79. But I passed away on August 14.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:08:12.35)
2010.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:08:16.574)
two more days and it would have been three years exactly to the date of Max's passing. I just thought about that. Interesting how that works. Anyway, there are books that have been written that have little chapters in me, but there's an autobiography, no, not an autobiography, there's a biography coming out about me next year.

Adesoji Iginla (01:08:24.855)
and

Adesoji Iginla (01:08:35.243)
If you're coming out.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:08:38.238)
Of course, Alicia Keys did a documentary for PBS featuring me and Diane Carroll and, gosh, I forget, but there were like six of us. I think Cicely Tyson as well. There were six black women that were featured in it. There's a documentary that was also done on Max and Abby.

Certainly there are a lot of my interviews that you can find on the World Wide Web as you call it today. And what I can say about my life is I did it all.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:09:26.482)
I did it all and I have no regrets. So thank you for this time to talk with you.

Adesoji Iginla (01:09:33.346)
No, thank you, thank you, thank you. And I believe this quote was also attributed to you. And you said, when people leave this earth, they spread their wings of miracle in a blaze of light and disappear. Abelinken will not disappear because her spirit lives on in your recordings. So.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:09:56.786)
Yes, and there's so many young people now who are re-recording my music, people who are going through my archives, performing my poetry, really delving into how I looked at life.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:10:20.882)
Live your life.

Adesoji Iginla (01:10:22.658)
Yeah, Yes, yes, yes. And be clear of what your purpose is. Yes, live your life with purpose. Yes, and yeah, thank you, thank you, thank you. Again, we have come to the end of another episode of Women and Resistance. Today it was Abilinkin, Aminata Moseka, Gabi Lee.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:10:23.962)
every day. Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (01:10:52.328)
whatever name you can find out. So that's it. Next week it will be the turn of BD Mason and yeah it promises to be another interesting and informative episode. Until next week I would ask Abbe Lincoln to give us her final thoughts.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:11:20.198)
We are gods. You and me. We are gods. Live like the god you are.

Adesoji Iginla (01:11:31.202)
Yep. That said, wake up tomorrow and move some mountains. Until next week, it is good night and God bless.