EP 8 Ernesta Procope: Redlining & Resistance I Women And Resistance 🌍

In this conversation, Adesoji Iginla had Ernesta Procope (as embodied by Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq.) share her journey as a Black woman in the insurance industry, emphasising the importance of education, community, and advocacy.

She discusses the challenges she has faced in her career, particularly discrimination and the need for policy changes in the insurance sector.

Procope highlights the role of Black women in leadership and the significance of understanding one's history to navigate power dynamics effectively.

She concludes with advice for future generations on the importance of education and staying true to one's roots.

Takeaways

*Education is crucial for empowerment and success.
*Investing in young people's education is essential.
*The insurance industry has historically marginalised Black individuals.
*Advocacy can lead to significant policy changes.
*Understanding one's history is vital for navigating power dynamics.
*Black women have a unique role in leadership and advocacy.
*Community support is essential for success in business.
*Economic freedom is tied to home ownership and wealth building.
*Strategic thinking is necessary to overcome systemic barriers.
*Never allow others to define your worth or capabilities.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Ernesta Procope
01:35 The Importance of Education
03:08 Navigating the Insurance Industry
08:48 Personal Background and Early Influences
13:58 Challenges in the Insurance Sector
19:23 Advocacy and Policy Changes
27:02 The Role of Black Women in Leadership
32:19 Navigating Power Dynamics
45:10 Advice for Future Generations

Welcome  to Women and Resistance, a powerful podcast where we honour the courage, resilience, and revolutionary spirit of women across the globe. Hosted by Aya Fubara Eneli Esq and Adesoji Iginla...

You're listening to Women and Resistance with Aya Fubara Eneli Esq and Adesoji Iginla—where we honour the voices of women who have shaped history through courage and defiance...Now, back to the conversation.

That’s it for this episode of Women and Resistance. Thank you for joining us in amplifying the voices of women who challenge injustice and change the course of history. Be sure to subscribe, share, and continue the conversation. Together We Honour the past, act in the present, and shape the future. Until next time, stay inspired and stay in resistance!

Transcript

Adesoji Iginla (00:01.378)
Yes, greetings and greetings, and welcome to Women and Resistance, our weekly conversation with ladies and women who have carved and helped shape strategies that have ensured the survival of the Black polity. And today is no exception. And we will be speaking with Anesta Prokop.

She wasn't a protester in the streets. She played no musical instruments. But she was a strategist in the boardroom. Many might know her, but not really know of her. So this is part of the series of why we do this. Because sometimes we do see these people across our timelines, across our media phase and all.

but we don't really know what their motivation is. And for this, I have NS Star ProCop on the chair today. Welcome, man.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (01:16.163)
Well, good evening. Thank you for having me.

Adesoji Iginla (01:19.864)
Thank you for being with us today. So without further ado, I would ask the question. People would know you as a boardroom strategist, a multimillionaire, but I'm sure that is not what makes you tick. Could you give us an idea of what your motivation was in going into that field?

I'm proud to that just give us an idea of who you were or what led to your travel in such a field of endeavour.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (02:03.097)
For all your listeners today, first and foremost, thank you for inviting me to speak with you here on Women and Resistance. I have watched with great pride as you have talked to other women, of course, many of them long before my time, because one of the things that has been most important to me in my life is education.

I believe that every young person should invest in their education. We should invest in the education of our young people. And whether they go to college or whether they choose to learn a trade, the important thing is that you acquire skill sets that allow you to be productive, that allow you to participate in the economy in which you live.

and that allow us to get off these welfare roles and to create the lives that we want to live. And education is very important to me. So I am a Nesta G Procope. And in the course of our conversation, I will tell you a little bit more about my life. But the industry that I went into is the insurance industry. And I'm telling you, it is simple.

Adesoji Iginla (03:24.983)
OK.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (03:29.739)
It is stubborn, it's unglamorous, and yet it is essential. Do you own a home? You need insurance. Do you even rent? You need insurance in the case of a calamity. Do you have an automobile? You need insurance. Life.

Adesoji Iginla (03:35.308)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (03:49.355)
You need insurance for your life, for your loved ones. Of course, if you own a business, you want to have that business insured because things happen and the worst thing is to build and to be completely unprepared. But what has really concerned me is that we, those of us in the insurance industry, we have done a very poor job of educating young people about the importance of this industry.

and to show them how they can become a part of the industry. And I was very fortunate to find this industry and to decide to make it my career.

At a time, I must say, where there were very few black people and few women who were part of this industry or certainly trying to create their own agencies, their own businesses in the way that I did.

Adesoji Iginla (04:49.39)
Okay, was there any point in time where you felt entering the industry was important? An event or series of events as you were?

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (05:02.447)
Well, you know, some would call me a child prodigy. wouldn't exactly say that. I'm going to give you a little bit of background as to my life and how I came into the insurance industry. The very short answer to that question is that my first husband, Mr. Bowman,

was a real estate investor and he owned some properties. And if you own properties, you definitely want to have your properties insured. so I studied and got my...

Adesoji Iginla (05:28.973)
Okay.

Adesoji Iginla (05:34.198)
In short, okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (05:40.399)
My broker's license as an insurer and then I continued to build from there now He died shortly after we did not have a very long marriage at all But I continued with the industry and so the interest my industry eg Bowman is actually Named in honor of my husband and I kept that name even after I remarried

But just to give you a bit more of a sense of who I am and where I come from.

I was raised in what is known as Bedford-Stuyvesant. I was actually raised on the Bedford side of it before the two areas, which were separated, I would say, by about 10 blocks. were two streets that ran parallel to each other that was the Stuyvesant Street, but that whole area became known as the Bedford-Stuyvesant area. But I was born on the Bedford side of it. And I am the daughter of Caribbean immigrants.

My father Clarence Forster was born in Barbados and my mother Elvira, her maiden name was Lord, was born in St. Lucia. Now I should say something a little bit about my mother's people. My mother's father in St. Lucia used to ride on a horseback, so he rode his horse, and he would ride around and collect taxes.

So you could call him a tax collector. And my grandfather, so my mother's father was of mixed racial heritage. He was black and white, as they would say. Now his father was...

Adesoji Iginla (07:13.74)
a letter. Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (07:31.248)
I had a career that I suppose maybe I should not be proud to say it, but it is part of my history. His father was a white man and he was a pirate. He had set up

a false lighthouse and with that white that lighthouse there would be ships that would come there for refuge and he would pillage them and sell the pro the the the items that he got from these ships

Adesoji Iginla (07:54.679)
Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (08:01.59)
on the ground.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (08:10.943)
But my mother eventually, whose parents died when she was rather young, came to Brooklyn to live with one of her sisters. Her older sisters raised her. And my father, who was one of four boys, four sons, things were getting difficult financially in Barbados. I think some of your other

The other woman you've spoken with, believe, what is her name, who ran for office from my area? You know who I'm talking about. Shirley Chisholm, I believe she talked about that and some of the reasons that people migrated from different parts of the Caribbean to New York was because of economic issues. And so my father's father,

Adesoji Iginla (08:48.674)
It's chelishism.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (09:07.467)
actually got him a job on a ship.

and he was a seaman for a very long time. And that is how he came to settle in Brooklyn. Now for our people, and I would encourage all black people to get back to this time, for Caribbean immigrants, one of the major goals when you arrived here and settled was to become a homeowner. I believe Shirley Chisholm talked about that as well, that her parents sent her back.

Adesoji Iginla (09:37.986)
See you.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (09:41.326)
to live with her grandmother so they could work and save. Yes. And so my parents actually bought their first home, also in Bedford, and then later a second home, and that's where I was born. And I had two older brothers and a younger sister, Marjorie, who unfortunately died in infancy. But.

Adesoji Iginla (09:43.288)
so they can save, yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (10:06.427)
In a sense, I came from people who were about doing something. You know, it was about taking whatever you had in life and working to elevate yourself. And so,

Adesoji Iginla (10:19.137)
Okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (10:21.089)
We were members of the Presbyterian Church. My father sang and so did his brothers. My father was in the choir. My father was a very domineering kind of man and my mother was very gentle, very quiet, very soft spoken woman. But don't be misguided by that, yes. So when my mother realized that I had a certain...

Adesoji Iginla (10:39.6)
I the softness for weakness.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (10:48.547)
pension for music, was good at it. She did everything within her means to ensure that I started to take piano lessons when I was about eight years old. And I eventually debuted, if you will, at the Carnegie Hall at age 12.

Adesoji Iginla (10:58.241)
Okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (11:09.631)
I played at Carnegie Hall and I suppose I could have pursued a career in music, but I wanted to have a career where I could actually earn a good living. And so I did not pursue music. But I was not one of those children who you had to cajole or force to practice their music. When I got home from school, I went straight to practice my music. And after I was done with that,

I did my homework and that was essentially how I proceeded, how I grew up. We lived on a street, maybe four other black families and the rest of the families were white families. And I got along with just about most of the children there. There were of course some who did not want to play with black people. I understood that, and I understood that prejudice.

But that was their problem and not mine. But I got along with those who wanted to get along with me. Now my mother was determined to give me the best, and for all of her children, to give me the best opportunities that she could in life. And so I actually, I was recommended by one of my teachers.

from my elementary school and and middle school and he recommended me to attend the New York High School of Music. It's now part of the LaGuardia High School and it was a school specifically for children who had artistic talent.

and you had to try out for it. You couldn't just get accepted. You couldn't just get admitted. And I tried out and I was accepted to that school. And I was at that school for four years before I went on to Brooklyn College for a year.

Adesoji Iginla (13:05.57)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (13:09.703)
And shortly after that, I got married to my first husband. And then, as I said, studied and passed my insurance broker's exam and became an insurance broker. And of course, it made sense to start with my community. At that time, there was a lot of discrimination. And there still is.

Adesoji Iginla (13:09.847)
Okay.

Adesoji Iginla (13:35.575)
Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (13:36.672)
So they were the insurance companies would write life insurance policies for black people And they would you know something at like 25 cents a week and they would come around on every week to collect that money and But those policies were always written at a higher premium

then a white person under the same circumstances would have to pay. So even then we were being overcharged. And I opened my company in Bedford. We had a storefront right there in the community. But what we found out was that many of the underwriters,

Adesoji Iginla (14:03.969)
I suppose.

Adesoji Iginla (14:11.342)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (14:28.16)
Okay. Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (14:28.175)
which you need in the insurance business, claimed they were concerned about their safety and did not want to come into the Black neighborhoods because as more Black people migrated to New York and to the Bedford and then eventually the Stuyvesant area,

Adesoji Iginla (14:38.318)
No.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (14:47.855)
they felt that it was unsafe and for no good reason at all. They had never even stepped foot there and they wouldn't even come to our agency to do business with us and underwrite the policies that we were attempting to sign. And so in 1979 with my second husband,

Adesoji Iginla (14:53.536)
All done.

Adesoji Iginla (15:02.862)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (15:12.873)
I then made the decision, we collectively made that decision to look for property on Wall Street. And we moved to Wall Street so that we could do business in the way that would benefit our community. And I tell you, there was a particularly distressing time where it seemed all at once, almost 90 %

Adesoji Iginla (15:21.493)
Okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (15:41.132)
of the black businesses and homes that had insurance policies in our area were suddenly dropped, just dropped.

And you know, that can be a very catastrophic situation because if anything happened, you suddenly would not have the money to repay, to recover, to rebuild and things of that nature. And there was no real reason except for what we now know as redlining, where they just looked at a whole geographical area and decided we are not going to insure those people as opposed to looking at it case by case as they should have. So this was during the 1960s.

Adesoji Iginla (15:58.648)
Yeah, you're not covered.

Adesoji Iginla (16:13.464)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (16:21.889)
Some might say, hmm, interesting that it aligned with the civil rights movement as well. And maybe some of your listeners may remember this time or may talk to their parents or their grandparents to find out about what was happening in terms of insurance with them during this time.

At one point, our brokerage received dozens of cancellations all in a single day. And like I said, not based on any individual risk, but on geography, effectively, you know, affecting the economy of a whole group of people, right?

Adesoji Iginla (16:53.934)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (17:07.147)
If most people are making their wealth, generating wealth, passing on wealth through their homes, and we can't even insure our homes, what does that look like? And then of course you know that most banks will not loan you money for a property if that property ...

Adesoji Iginla (17:07.245)
Yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (17:26.713)
cannot be insured if it's not insured. So that also closed people out from even being homeowners or business owners. But you know what? The importance of education. And I'm gonna go back to my mother for a second here. So my mother, when I was a kid, was part of an organization called the Crispus Attucks Community Council.

Adesoji Iginla (17:27.114)
is on G-shot.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (17:54.2)
Now, if your listeners have not heard of Crispus Attucks, that is a name that you should go and research and find out what his role was in the revolution of the United States of America. Now, this council took it upon themselves to picket the Woolworth store and the five and 10 cent store and told them, if you are going to be in our community,

and collect our money, having us be your consumers, you must also hire us. And if you choose not to hire us, then we would choose not to spend our money with you. And so my mother was very, very, very conscious and strategic about ensuring that our money was spent with black businesses. Now I have to tell you, I am wearing off-white beige because that is my favorite color.

Adesoji Iginla (18:28.27)
Thanks

Adesoji Iginla (18:47.278)
Hmm

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (18:53.671)
And Christmas is my favorite season, but I think that my mother, if she were alive today, would say Kwanzaa is her favorite season. And I say that because long before we had the Unguzo Sabaa and we had the intentional idea of buying black, cooperative economics.

Adesoji Iginla (19:03.362)
This is it.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (19:18.593)
My mother believed in that. My mother would walk the extra mile or more to make sure that she was patronizing black businesses. So she was quiet, but don't get that confused. She was quite a militant in her own right. And I am truly the daughter of both my father and my mother. And

Adesoji Iginla (19:24.194)
just to buy black.

Adesoji Iginla (19:28.866)
businesses.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (19:42.754)
And so when I found out, and obviously with my business, we saw these mass cancellations. We didn't just get mad, we got strategic. And what I did was I and the people that I employed, we documented patterns of cancellation. We demonstrated the absence of actuarial justification. This is accounting, this is finance. And we...

Adesoji Iginla (20:07.096)
Christian.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (20:10.511)
escalated the issue to state regulators. We did not appeal to corporate goodwill. We framed insurance access as a matter of public necessity and economic stability. And eventually my advocacy reached the New York governor, Nelson Rockefeller, and he met with me.

Adesoji Iginla (20:21.016)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (20:26.775)
Okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (20:36.289)
and I laid out the figures for him. I am not appealing to their humanity. What happens if a fire raises an entire community? Someone has to cover that. Why not allow the people to be insured? And so from that meeting and from our strategy came the New York Fair Plan.

Adesoji Iginla (20:43.576)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (21:04.075)
It's fair access to insurance requirements, which required insurers operating in the state of New York to participate in a shared risk pool and provide basic property insurance to homeowners, otherwise denied coverage. And in my time, that spread to 26 other states. You might want to do your research

Adesoji Iginla (21:04.195)
Mmm.

Adesoji Iginla (21:08.311)
Okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (21:33.091)
to find out if your state has such a program at this time. And if they don't, then you take up the mantle and advocate for that.

Adesoji Iginla (21:44.93)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (21:46.678)
And eventually, as we moved to Wall Street, we were able to now ensure not just black businesses, of course, I had already been ensuring a lot of churches, churches that owned businesses as well, but we also were now able to do work with Fortune 500 companies, which makes a huge difference. In fact, Robert F. Kennedy,

was one of the very first major corporations that came and did business with us. And if you do not know about Robert F. Kennedy, you perhaps should go and investigate that as well. But he had a Bedford-Stuyvesant Restoration Corporation, and they further legitimized black property as insurable and investable. And my company,

served as an insurance broker for restoration projects, forcing insurers to underwrite black development under public and political scrutiny. Don't just get mad, get smart, which is why I get back to education. And I would say this as well. If I had a quote that I would want to always be associated with me, it would be,

Adesoji Iginla (23:02.008)
Yes, true. Yeah, yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (23:08.866)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (23:14.233)
don't give up. I don't give up. So through this combination of documentation, regulatory pressure, and strategic alliances, I was able to dismantle one of the most effective mechanisms of racial dispossession. My work transformed insurance from a gatekeeping tool into a stabilizing force for Black ownership. But the work must continue.

Adesoji Iginla (23:32.79)
redlining.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (23:44.014)
because now what we are faced with in so many communities that were predominantly Black communities is this thing called gentrification. And I'm telling you, it is not new because even back in the 60s and 70s, Lyndon B. Johnson's wife, Lady Bird, was a huge proponent for gentrification, even as her husband was signing the civil rights bills.

Adesoji Iginla (24:12.232)
Right, it will.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (24:12.975)
She was very much an advocate for gentrification, a way to push us out. Now, in case your listeners don't already have this information on me, I was born on February 9th, 1923. So I want you to understand the period in which all of this was happening, the period in which I grew up, and historically understand what was going on with Black people.

Jim Crow was very much alive. So whatever obstacles you are facing today, could you say that they were more insurmountable than the obstacles faced during my time when I first came into being, when my parents were striving to become homeowners? And so I would very much encourage us to do what needs to be done economically.

Adesoji Iginla (24:57.422)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (25:11.279)
to become homeowners in larger numbers today than we currently are. As I go on, I guess I should pause to see if there are any particular questions that you have. But as you can tell, I am very passionate about the work that I have done and the work that I did really until my transition.

Adesoji Iginla (25:35.875)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (25:40.975)
I died on November 30th, 2021, and I did not retire until 2016.

Adesoji Iginla (25:51.415)
Wow.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (25:52.469)
And so, well, let me pause. Do you have any questions for me so far?

Adesoji Iginla (25:56.404)
Okay, yes, yes, there is questions. One would be, I mean, take your time with this one. It's, you talked about you being born in 1920s. So you had to face your parents at least would have to face the Great Depression, Jim Crow, the civil rights, redlining and everything that came through. So at that time when you came into business, and we know how

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (26:04.44)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (26:14.083)
Yes. Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (26:25.9)
the United States is set up, the Black woman is seen as some sort of threat, even up till today. So the question would be, when you engage capitalism by being strategic and being political, did you feel alone or you had people with like-minded, maybe women or men, who shared your view, who also saw things the way you did?

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (26:54.305)
Certainly I've shared with you about my family background in the community in which I lived where there were many other black people, many other quote unquote immigrants and who definitely had a sense of we work to build the lives that we want, right?

Adesoji Iginla (26:58.008)
Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (27:05.774)
Mm-hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (27:12.271)
hard work, discipline, education, those were all things that were instilled in me. I also had both husbands, my first husband who very much encouraged me in the work that I was doing as an insurance broker. And then later when I married John Procope, the absolute love of my life. John was the publisher at one point of the Amsterdam News. So he was definitely a very informed man

Adesoji Iginla (27:38.679)
Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (27:42.178)
who worked tirelessly for our community and my connections and his connections and me being able to advertise in the Amsterdam news definitely assisted with the growth of my company. And you here's a man who did not balk, had no issues with my company still being named E.G. Bowman after we got married.

Adesoji Iginla (27:51.693)
news.

Adesoji Iginla (28:05.486)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (28:06.811)
And I should say this, my husband was an advertising executive. It's actually a marketing specialist is the title that he had. He worked with Batten, Barton, Durston and Osborne. And he was very clear that he could have climbed even higher in that company had he not been black.

Adesoji Iginla (28:33.027)
Hmm

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (28:33.121)
Nonetheless, he acquired the skills that he could and he applied them to many other areas of his life. Of course, like I said, becoming the publisher of the Amsterdam News. But he also lent a lot of that knowledge to me and eventually.

He did sell his part of the Amsterdam News and he joined me in my company. And we definitely would not have accomplished what we were able to accomplish, which is that we are in all 50 states. We are licensed in all 50 states. Had it not been for one, his support, but also his business acumen that joined with mine allowed us

to overcome a lot of obstacles and to strategize in a way that allowed us to become successful. Now, to your direct question about being a woman, being black, you know what? That is what I am. I am a woman and I am black. And I did not let that define me. There's perhaps some people.

who as we know may have had issues with both, one or both of those facts of who I am, yes, but that was not something that I expended my energy on. I worked and I did a marvelous job. As a matter of fact, what I would always tell my employees, I said, listen, we are not selling potatoes and we're not selling onions.

Adesoji Iginla (29:48.408)
Mm-hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (30:09.943)
We are selling service. And people will always go somewhere else if you do not provide excellent service. And so when we interact with the public, when we interact with the underwriters, with whomever we are interacting, we sell service. And we come at it with that sense of pride and confidence and

Adesoji Iginla (30:10.253)
Mmm.

Adesoji Iginla (30:15.544)
That's a quote.

Adesoji Iginla (30:31.128)
Mm-hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (30:39.875)
a commitment to excellence and that is what we do and that is how I always lived my life and so I did not allow anybody with their small-mindedness define me. As a matter of fact, I was named Woman of the Year by Leonard Evans, the W. Leonard Evans Jr. Magazine and that award was given to me at the White House by Mrs. Nixon, Pat Nixon.

We had a very nice tea. And of course, there were some other people who were in attendance as well. And I was honored in that way. I later received quite a few honorary degrees, including from Howard University. And it was really at the time when I was receiving that honorary doctorate from Howard University that I was dubbed the First Lady of Wall Street. And so beyond even my

Adesoji Iginla (31:10.23)
okay

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (31:39.746)
corporation, my business that I started, the level of excellence that I provided, the way that I carried myself, led to me serving on prominent corporate and nonprofit boards, including Avon, Columbia Gas System, CHOP,

and other institutions like Cornell University, the New York Auburn League. In fact, at one point, I was the chair of the board of trustees for I'll Delphi University. And I was also on the Bronx Zoo board of trustees as well. So.

Adesoji Iginla (32:06.734)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (32:21.057)
This matters, you know, and I bring this up as other people listen, as young people listen, as you maybe parents and grandparents are listening, that you share this and my story with the youth because board seats are where capital decisions, vendor selections, philanthropy, and corporate strategy intersect.

Adesoji Iginla (32:40.888)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (32:48.751)
If you have an opportunity to sit on a board, by all means, do so. But do so with an understanding that you are there not to just rubber stamp or to have that as an accomplishment, an individual accomplishment, but you are there to help direct resources to other communities that may otherwise be ignored.

Adesoji Iginla (32:53.688)
do. Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (33:11.694)
Mm-hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (33:18.022)
or closed out.

because there is not an advocate there. Like I said, these boards are where capital decisions, vendor selection, so when you have businesses, but they cannot get certain loans, they cannot get certain accounts, they cannot be chosen to do certain jobs, they cannot bid on certain opportunities, that is a problem, right? And so my presence,

represented an era when black women gained opportunities into these different areas and where we could also showcase our expertise and help shape national economic life. And we did this, I did this without the protection or forgiveness routinely.

Adesoji Iginla (33:57.666)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (34:07.491)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (34:14.485)
extended to white executives. So you had to know your stuff, right? Yes. And I must say that, okay, go ahead and I will go on. Okay. So when I chaired the Adelphi University board, it was actually during a period of major governance scandal.

Adesoji Iginla (34:20.706)
which

Which brings me to No, go on, go on, go Finish your thought. Finish your thought. Finish your thought.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (34:40.355)
There are so many documents you can go out there and find and case summaries that would describe allegations at that point that I benefited from insurance brokerage involvements or arrangements involving my firm, E.G. Bowman, and that raised for some conflicts of interest concerning the university governance structure.

There was a lot of coverage and analysis of this Adelphi so-called crisis and this was described Even with the New York State Board of Regents Removing they ended up removing most of the trustees in 1997 for fiduciary failures and governance violations However, I weathered even that storm. Like I said the scrutiny

Adesoji Iginla (35:04.365)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (35:33.764)
given to white executives and not extended to black people, not extended to black women for sure. But I did not quit. I did not give up. So when you look at that, my tenure, definitely there is a penalty you could argue for black exceptionalism.

where Black leaders, when we enter into these elite governance spaces, our margin for error is thin, if not nonexistent, right? Being in these positions of power, I must let us know, are often without structural protection. So while our white peers are protected, for us, access to power

Adesoji Iginla (36:08.237)
Yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (36:21.877)
does not erase the structural expectation that Black leaders must be twice as ethical to be treated as equal, right? And we must always understand that as a community, we deserve that transparent governance and that we are going to be held to that highest scrutiny and we need to be able to produce at that level. So yes, what question?

Did you want to pause?

Adesoji Iginla (36:51.438)
So I was actually going to go into the Adelphi controversy since you've gone there, so we might as well table it. Would you say the scrutiny came as a result of seeing the role of Black women in leadership being, how can I say it, juxtaposed against the containment that is white supremacy? Would you say that's the case or?

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (36:56.332)
Hmm

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (37:01.005)
Okay.

Adesoji Iginla (37:19.682)
There is more to it than just data.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (37:22.489)
Well, I would pose that question to your listeners and to your viewers. What do they think, given their lived experiences, what do you think would have occurred at that time? I think today, not I think, I know this for sure, you have...

Adesoji Iginla (37:27.288)
you

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (37:43.096)
I mentioned Nixon earlier, Mrs. Nixon, you have her husband who was pardoned immediately and did not have to deal with any major fallout really from his wrongdoings. And your current president has not won, not two, not three, not five, not 10, not 20, but counted 34 felonies and nonetheless.

Adesoji Iginla (37:44.962)
Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (37:55.574)
What are you getting? Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (38:10.799)
has not only been elected president, the Supreme Court, the highest court in the land, has all for all intents and purposes given him the keys to the kingdom, so to speak. And he is not being held to even the standards that we might hold the president of a high school student government to. And so I leave that question to your viewers and your listeners.

Adesoji Iginla (38:11.01)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (38:40.783)
do you think could possibly have been occurring under?

Adesoji Iginla (38:42.222)
I'm

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (38:46.177)
those circumstances with Adelphi. Certainly I was an anomaly then and even now there are not so many of us Black women serving in these roles or in these positions and certainly not cheering those boards. And so you think back to when this happened that was certainly something that I suppose for many people would have been a difficult pill to swallow. And as you look at all

Adesoji Iginla (38:56.344)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (39:03.842)
Okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (39:16.131)
the ongoing anti-diversity equity and inclusion. don't call it DEI. Let's call it out so people can be very clear about what it is they're opposing. Or the white guilt that would allow your current vice president say, white people have nothing to apologize. They do not need to apologize for their whiteness. Get this right, sir.

Adesoji Iginla (39:34.732)
Bye guys.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (39:39.177)
No one asked you to apologize for how God made you or what hue you are. We simply are holding you to task for being racist with two very different things.

Adesoji Iginla (39:50.958)
true. Speaking of, you mentioned the uniqueness of the time you lived there. And what uniqueness would have been you taking a black firm from Ben Stowe into Wall Street. So the question would be, you went into Wall Street. Did you see a flood of black firms coming to Wall Street after you did or prior to you doing so? What was the

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (39:58.103)
Mm-hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (40:05.474)
Mm-hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (40:10.275)
Mm-hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (40:17.483)
No, we were the first black insurance company on Wall Street. There were other black investment bankers, not a flood of them, but they were certainly, I would say, maybe eight or nine.

That the the there are quite a few obstacles to being able to build a company to that level and and To establish on wall street, so it is it's not an easy feat So no would I say that there were a flood of black companies as a result of what I did? No Do we need to have more? Absolutely. Hence my conversation with you today because so many of us overlook the importance

of insurance and building up our own corporations. And I would certainly encourage your viewers and your listeners, whatever field you are in, to, I suppose that there's a certain amount of safety that comes from being an employee, we think, but also that puts you at the mercy of whoever has employed you and you have to toe the line or be fired.

And so I think it is worth the risk to also consider becoming a business owner in your own right, where you have a little bit more autonomy. Although of course, whoever you are marketing to, your consumers are ultimately your boss, which is why again, I emphasize the importance of service because people have options as to where they want to go and who they spend their money with.

Adesoji Iginla (41:57.354)
In your analysis earlier, you mentioned the fact that in order to get the homeowners in your neck of the woods insured, you had to prove the case to the governor, Mr. Rockefeller. So we now know that even insurance is in itself political. And I bring up the issue of politics because at one point you were

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (42:08.857)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (42:20.22)
yes.

Adesoji Iginla (42:25.486)
appointed the US ambassador to the Gambia. Would you say that was instead a placating appointment, or it was seen as a justification of how you've moved so far in the business world? Because I mean, you would see. OK.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (42:29.113)
Yes, I was.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (42:44.215)
Of course the latter. Of course the latter. There's no question about that. In every way I proved myself. so people with lesser qualifications are appointed ambassadors all the time. And I had the know-how and I had the interest and I had the ability to serve and to serve in an excellent manner.

representing the United States of America, but also having at the core of me the upliftment of Black people.

and so yes, I was very honored to be appointed as the ambassador to Gambia and I, and I served that role as I do everything with, excellence. In fact, this would be a good time to tell you about some of my other accomplishments that your, audience may not be aware of. not only did I build E.G. Bowman into the largest minority-owned insurance brokerage,

Adesoji Iginla (43:39.136)
listens okay

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (43:48.144)
happened to be both black and women owned brokerage across the United States of America. I was recognized as one of the insurance industry's living legends. This was an industry media recognition that I received.

I also received major entrepreneurship honors, including the Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year. These are not awards that just get handed out to Black people or Black women.

This was again because of what I had accomplished and the manner in which we served all of our clients not just the everyday workers but also the Fortune 500 corporations that we insured as well. I was also named the US SBA Small Business Person of the Year.

I received the A.G. Gaston Lifetime Leadership Award from Black Enterprise. This was reported by the Business Insurance Organization. And if you have not heard of A.G. Gaston, you definitely want to go and research him as well. He's a titan. He also was in the insurance business. He had a bank. He had...

funeral homes, he created opportunities for black people to acquire skills, to make good money, and he helped out quite a bit with his finances with the civil rights movement. So I would definitely encourage you to go and research A.G. Gaston. Of course, I told you about my honorary doctorate from Howard University, which was such a

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (45:37.104)
a highlight of my life because again, education is extremely important to me. But I also got honorary doctorates from Adelphi University, Morgan State University, and Marymount Manhattan College.

As I already mentioned, I was named woman of the year and given that award or presented that award by First Lady Patricia Nixon, of course, before her husband was no longer in the position that he had been. I was not at all scared to take things to the political realm. Working with Governor Nelson Rockefeller, of course, I already mentioned

Adesoji Iginla (46:06.446)
and said it, yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (46:23.215)
RFK, Robert F. Kennedy. And this is what I want my community to understand. No insurance means no mortgage means no home means no health means no inheritance. You understand what I'm saying?

Adesoji Iginla (46:27.031)
Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (46:40.526)
Could you repeat that, please?

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (46:42.415)
No insurance means no mortgage means no home means no wealth means no inheritance these things are done very deliberately and We must understand the systemic ways in which we are closed out from wealth and we must fight it I Treated black neighborhoods as insurable and therefore financeable, right?

Adesoji Iginla (46:46.051)
Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (46:53.614)
system.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (47:09.491)
I turned insurance brokerage into a vehicle for Black institutional power, demonstrating that Black enterprise can operate at the center of corporate America without surrendering who we are, what we are about, or surrendering competence or ambition. I modeled a form of pragmatic activism.

not only protest, but policy engineering, lobbying, and institutional negotiation. So as I've listened to some of the other women you've been in conversation with, understand that we come at our liberation with different tools.

Some use their voice, their singing voice. Some speak, some write, some fight with swords, some with guns, some poison, right? Some, as you might find out, might use the art of cooking or artistry.

But whatever your talent, your gift, your skill set is, you can absolutely employ it to resist and fight back and to help you and others who've been marginalized.

attain true freedom and there is no true freedom without economic freedom. Look at Africa today with all of our resources, but when we do not control those resources, when the money is flowing to other coffers and not ours, it keeps us in a very vulnerable place. I expanded the imagination of what a black woman could be, not only successful,

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (49:02.777)
but indispensable, a decision maker, a broker of risk, a builder of systems. And I was able to do that not just in my own will, but because of the family that brought me up, the community that raised me, the education that I received, and even watching that quiet woman nonetheless show herself to be a mighty

warrior, a militant on our behalf.

Adesoji Iginla (49:36.482)
Yes, I mean, what else can be said as we come close to the end of our discussion with you? Based on your life experience, could you help advice or provide advice to Black women on how to navigate proximity to power without being consumed by it? There is the news making the round that there is an artist who has decided

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (49:45.185)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (50:06.476)
to throw all her toys out of the pram, as it were, and take liberties with the freedom of a large swathe of the minority group in the United States. So how, as a woman, you have done it. So how do you navigate the corridors of power without being consumed by it?

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (50:35.071)
This is a very important question that you have just asked me and I'm gonna speak specifically to those of you who are in a position to educate, raise, mentor young people, which should be all of us. That is something I did not have any biological children, but I made sure to reach out to young people to make introductions, to provide pathways for education.

for the acquiring of skill sets that could set them on a trajectory for success. So now listen, as I answer this question, we must know our history. it causes me great despair when if we take one of the best known black people in the United States of America, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

It causes me great despair when I talk to young people and they may know the name but they know nothing else. They have no understanding of their history, no understanding of what we have had to overcome, no understanding of the systems that are still in place.

And so when you ask me how do you navigate these halls? How do you rise to certain levels of success without being consumed, without, as we shall say, selling out, without losing a sense of who you are? Well, young man, it must start first with having a sense of who you are in the first place, which is why we must teach.

our history to our young people. And that is one of the main reasons that I decided to accept your invitation to have this conversation with you today. If we don't know our history, if we don't have a deep understanding of who we are, of our worth, of our excellence, of what we've overcome in spite of.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (52:51.789)
then it is easy when you start getting some doors open for you to think that you have to transform into that thing that has rejected you all this time. Thinking that by becoming more like that thing, you will be accepted. No, you won't.

Adesoji Iginla (53:04.078)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (53:12.737)
No, you won't. Because how long have we been fighting this issue of racism, of being judged and marginalized because of our skin color, or let's talk about sexism because of our gender? And so what you must understand is your history. Take pride in who you are as you are.

Unless you develop skill sets and understand that you come from a long line of people who have been excellent, who have built much of what you see, even though they have not gotten the credit for it, therefore your success is not dependent and actually will be thwarted by trying to become other than that which you are.

Adesoji Iginla (54:05.486)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (54:12.267)
We must teach our history to our young people because that becomes their roots. That becomes the thing that grounds them. That becomes the thing that they are connected to. So no matter how far they grow, they are always deeply rooted in who they are, in who they come from.

and therefore what they must be in all spaces.

Adesoji Iginla (54:45.334)
Yes, yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (54:46.303)
So if you are an orange tree, I don't care what sand, what soil you are planted in. Maybe some don't allow you to thrive as well as an orange tree, but at no point are you going to now start producing apples because you are grounded as an orange tree. You are connected to your roots, but

Adesoji Iginla (55:11.561)
orange tree.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (55:15.437)
And I'm not a scientist in that way, but I do know enough about this. If you take, aha, if you take a plant and graft it into something else, a different plant, that might change. That in fact will change what it produces. So our history is what grounds us. Our history is what anchors us. Our history,

Adesoji Iginla (55:19.64)
Grafton.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (55:45.346)
is what allowed me, no matter what rooms I walked into or places I built, to be a Black woman of Caribbean ancestry, or should I say of African ancestry, via the Caribbean. Always very clear on that. My husband John was always very clear on that. My parents were always clear on that. We must ensure

that our young people are clear on.

Adesoji Iginla (56:19.714)
Yes, with that said, I want us to leave on that very powerful note. Thank you all for coming through. Thank you, Ms. Prokop, for helping us understand what it is to be a strategist in the boardroom. As it's usual, next week we'll be looking at the life and times of ATETE. And yes, it's ATETE. It's spelled A-T-E-T-E.

And next week, if you do come in, you would get to understand who else we're talking about next week. But for this week, I must commend you for coming in. we do know people will be celebrating Christmas tomorrow morning. Merry Christmas to you all. Happy Kwanzaa the day after. And that said, Mrs. Pocop, any final thoughts?

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (57:22.127)
And I somewhat hesitate to say this, but it has to be said so I will say it. Not enough people know about me or my company or what we accomplished. I thank you for the opportunity to share this part of our history. I will encourage everyone.

to look for more resources. I did an interview back in 2006 with the history makers and they have interviews of so many people as well. But put these things before your young people. Study yourself. Be excellent in whatever career path you have chosen and by all means understand that education

Adesoji Iginla (58:01.933)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (58:13.791)
as one of our leaders, Malcolm X said, is our passport to the future. And at a time when visas are being canceled, people are losing their citizenship, essentially some folk are not going to be allowed to get passports, understand that education is that passport that no one can take away from you. Go for it.

Adesoji Iginla (58:27.47)
Mmm.

Adesoji Iginla (58:40.302)
take from you. Yes. Yes. No, thank you very much for coming through. And to all our listeners and people who will be listening to this subsequently, yes, thank you all for being with us. Until next week, it is good night and God bless.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (58:43.939)
Thank you so much for having me.