EP 11 Queen Kambassa - Monarch And Matriarch I Women And Resistance 🌍

In this episode of Women and Resistance, host Adesoji Iginla engages with Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq., who embodies the spirit of Queen Kambassa of the Niger Delta. 

The conversation explores the historical significance of women in leadership, particularly in African cultures, and the legacy of Queen Kambassa as amanayanabo. They discuss cultural practices, marriage dynamics, and the role of women in society, emphasising the importance of leadership, governance, and community. 

The impact of Christian missionaries on local cultures and the need for environmental preservation are also highlighted, culminating in a call to action for listeners to respect and improve their communities.

Takeaways

*Women have historically shaped history, often overlooked.
*Queen Kambassa was a significant leader in the Niger Delta.
*Cultural practices around marriage were more flexible than today.
*Divorce was accepted and not taboo in traditional societies.
*Leadership requires understanding and confidence from the community.
*Women played vital roles in governance and decision-making.
*The impact of missionaries altered local cultures significantly.
*Environmental preservation was integral to cultural practices.
*Education was a means to empower communities against oppression.
*Respect and improvement of the community are essential for progress.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Women and Resistance
00:28 The Legacy of Queen Kambassa
04:09 Understanding Leadership and Governance
09:25 Cultural Practices and Marriage Dynamics
16:18 The Role of Women in Society
19:51 Becoming a Monarch: The Journey of Queen Kambassa
26:27 War and Peace: Leadership Challenges
35:12 The Impact of Missionaries on Culture
42:04 Environmental and Cultural Preservation

Welcome  to Women and Resistance, a powerful podcast where we honour the courage, resilience, and revolutionary spirit of women across the globe. Hosted by Aya Fubara Eneli Esq and Adesoji Iginla...

You're listening to Women and Resistance with Aya Fubara Eneli Esq and Adesoji Iginla—where we honour the voices of women who have shaped history through courage and defiance...Now, back to the conversation.

That’s it for this episode of Women and Resistance. Thank you for joining us in amplifying the voices of women who challenge injustice and change the course of history. Be sure to subscribe, share, and continue the conversation. Together We Honour the past, act in the present, and shape the future. Until next time, stay inspired and stay in resistance!

Transcript

Adesoji Iginla (00:01.772)
Yes, greetings, greetings, and welcome to another episode of Women and Resistance. I am your host, Adesuji Iginla, and again, welcome to Women and Resistance, the podcast. This is the podcast where we honor women who did not simply exist within history or helped shaped it. History have often lied to us, particularly about the contribution of women. Today, in our continuous quest to honor

African women. We journey to the Niger Delta, specifically to Borneo Kingdom, where a woman did not just advise power or help steer it. By that, I'm talking about Queen Kambisa.

Welcome.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (00:54.376)
when...

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (00:58.558)
How do I even, can I even calculate it?

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (01:05.508)
I.I.E. the one that you talk with when she consulted with me.

You know I lived a long time ago and she said you people want me to share my story.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (01:30.888)
had to think about it.

not because it's not a story that should not be told, not because I don't want my daughters to remember who they are and rise up in a different way today.

But because I said,

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (01:53.978)
An effective leader pays attention to their audience.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (02:07.742)
so you know what to say and how to move your audience.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (02:18.714)
if I come in to talk to you today.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (02:33.17)
How do I tell my story? Particularly for those of you...

who do not understand or cannot relate to that timeframe, my traditions, my culture, how do I effectively communicate to you? I'm saying this before I even answer any of your questions so that it will help all of us grapple with

both the speaking and the listening.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (03:22.098)
Because even though you're the only one I can hear from directly, in my spirit, I'm going to be trying to hear from the people who are listening to our conversation. But I also want them to perhaps...

make a decision before we even continue to maybe put aside.

all of their ideas of who

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (04:03.984)
I be or how I should present myself based on any ...

information that has been put out there because let me ask you no let me ask you this you answer this question when you think of an african woman

when you think of an African leader who happened to be a woman.

Going back to the 16th and 17th centuries in Africa, what image comes to mind?

Adesoji Iginla (04:50.164)
Queen Izinka, Queen Amina of Zarya

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (04:55.818)
hey but you're naming the names but what image because even the images of those women have been shaped by what

Adesoji Iginla (05:08.776)
But the men they had to organize and lead.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (05:15.078)
Now which men? Did we describe ourselves or did somebody else write that story or did we just come up with a description of them as a phantom of our imagination as we have seen done at different times in history as and a good example is the Jesus you people worship.

Is that picture that so many people can point out and say that is Jesus? Is that Jesus?

Adesoji Iginla (05:48.909)
Well, time has created depictions of humans. And depiction has now taken some sort of legacy background to think anytime you look up or you think that's the picture you see and people tend to go with it.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (06:06.206)
So let me start from the beginning.

even speaking in this tongue. so many translations before I can come out. And then I don't even know if it's coming out in the way that I mean it. My name, me, me, I am what I was called. Canva.

Adesoji Iginla (06:23.001)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (06:32.702)
My father, Eddie Mini. Some people also call me Kambasa. So most of the time people know me as Queen Kambasa. But when you look in the history books, you also see Kamba Da Eddie Mini. I come from...

a dynasty, a royal dynasty. We always want to say everybody's kings and queens and so on and so forth. I really did come from a line of rulers.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (07:08.518)
and my child through whom I'm speaking today can trace her lineage.

from her father who is still alive back, back all the way back to the centuries to me and beyond to the first King of Boni. What do people now call King? We called our terminology was Amanyanabo. So I was not Queen Kambasa. I was Amanyanabo. I was the ruler. I was the.

Again, all of these things we have to convert to the English version because unfortunately we don't have that common language.

Adesoji Iginla (07:46.671)
To give understanding.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (07:59.388)
What sets me apart? Why am I someone still talked about in the folk tales? Not as much as I should be because men do not even want this story to be told. It's because in the entire history of the monarchy of Boni, Boni being in the Niger Delta area now known for its oil,

For those of you who study, you go back, you look at Africa, then you look at Nigeria, then you look at the southern part of Nigeria, southeastern part of Nigeria, look at the Niger Delta, and Boni is right there. That was not our original name. We were Boni.

Adesoji Iginla (08:42.721)
Iban ni.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (08:43.454)
these white men they could not say the word say Bonnie the Bonnie people the Bonnie and now

there things that we do differently. Now we call ourselves Boni. But we were Ibani. But back to my story. When you trace all of the rulers from the first of Boni to present day Boni and now present day Opobo.

I am the only woman.

Adesoji Iginla (09:30.959)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (09:32.338)
to be the monarch. And that did not happen because the men wanted it to happen.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (09:44.37)
My people, we are a...

what you would call a riverine people. We fish, we sometimes build our homes on stilts. We are very good swimmers. We had our own form of spirituality. We had our deities. We understood our concept of God. We had our festivals and we had our governance systems. We had a form of government.

as to use you people's terminology. So even though you were the king or the Amayana Bo, as we would call it, the Amayana Bo did not unilaterally make decisions. The Amayana Bo had a group of not just advisors, they had advisors too, but you had a council that consisted of representatives.

from every war canal house. we were the whole town, if you will, was split into, you people's language, it just gives me problems. We had groupings of families. Those families knew that they worked together. They did business, protected themselves together. We considered them

Adesoji Iginla (11:02.927)
committees.

Okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (11:18.11)
war canoes houses. If we ever had to go to work, if we ever had to protect ourselves, each house would have its own military equipment. And young men and women were also trained to protect and then to come together collectively to protect the community at large.

and we had different age groups and each age group had a representative as well.

So there was not this sense of that Mayanamu made all the decisions or even that the council of chiefs made all the decisions. There was a process where every group had access to power to make their voice heard and known and to be considered as we made decisions. That is how it used to be.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (12:27.152)
Now back in my time, there were always these skirmishes, land battles because people were still migrating. My people, we say we migrated from the area of

Adesoji Iginla (12:38.005)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (12:51.518)
Sudan and Kemet and came down through the waterways before the desertification of Africa.

Adesoji Iginla (12:59.351)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (13:01.618)
So, and then we kept moving down following the waterways. So you would see skirmishes between different groups that had settled in different areas. But one of the ways that we would try to address these issues was through intermarriage.

not through nuclear weapons.

That is what you people call it today. So because once two families intermarry, they are now one. Will a brother now fight a brother or a sister fight a sister or a mother fight? You see. So when we were having some issues, Bonnie was having some issues back and forth with the people of Aswogw.

Adesoji Iginla (13:35.971)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (13:59.353)
I was one of those.

young girls the way I was raised and the way we raised women then you could fish you could farm you could protect yourself you could equally

There was a rites of passage, I'm using your terminology right, where we trained women, where we trained men, but complementary as well. Men could cook, men could dance, women could cook, women could dance. Every group had a training to allow them to come together and be a productive member of the community.

Adesoji Iginla (14:39.659)
Enhance the, yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (14:44.198)
and so my father gave me in marriage to Apolly who was a legendary chief of Aswoku and many young women wanted him. Now just hold on to that story I was telling you. I'll come back and finish this story. Just hold on. Let me go back to the beginning of what I was saying when I said

everybody you have to think about what what image do you have so when you were thinking or maybe you didn't think about it we're coming to hear from a woman who centuries and centuries ago even before

Well, I guess you say probably at the beginning of what they now call the transatlantic slave trade.

Adesoji Iginla (15:41.237)
and lightest sleeve trade.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (15:46.404)
what did you expect me to look like? So when I was preparing to come and talk to you I said

Do I dress like we really dress like, you know, when I was in sitting on my throne, do I come with all of that? Which would require me to bring a kweite. A kweite would be the material that we use to weave ourselves. If you think of kente, which most of you know, some similar geometric patterns, but the weaving of it, it's a beautiful thing to see.

Do I come with my wrapper tied around my waist but my chest bare? Which is as a more mature woman, that is how we would walk around. But in you people's culture, eh-heh, would they not take you off now? Except for sometimes, you people like to go and look at the naked body. But other times, it's now a horrible thing. I'm very confused by you people's culture. I have to tell you. I don't know.

Adesoji Iginla (16:31.567)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (16:57.566)
I'm a mature woman. What do you want to see? What does it mean to you? If a man can walk with his bare chest and nobody is losing their mind.

Adesoji Iginla (17:04.845)
you

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (17:15.121)
when I'm hot.

and is humid and everything. Can I not also? Okay. So I said, okay, I cannot now come with my bare chest. Many of you will say, they are primitive. They are savage. I said, okay, well, do I come with all my fineries except that I also want to talk to you about who I was on a very practical level.

Adesoji Iginla (17:22.635)
What bad jest.

Adesoji Iginla (17:33.657)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (17:49.168)
And you cannot go through life and accomplish what I accomplished and be wearing fineries all the time. You can't.

I that you people have some role model, something you people call like that. Everything healed, everything, what do you people call it, slay? I don't know if you are really actively accomplishing something in life, if you always going to just have...

Adesoji Iginla (18:14.639)
next.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (18:23.08)
So I said, that is not a correct appearance because it's not something that I really lived. If you're going to be a leader, you must be effective. And just for me, just looking apart.

if that part is not conducive to my leadership, to the work that I have to do. So when I'm going to war, is that what I'm going to do?

Adesoji Iginla (19:03.523)
Really not.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (19:04.846)
So I had to think carefully. said, okay, well, I will at least wear my coral beads, gives a mark of some of my royalty, but my hair, everything we have work to do. Okay, so now that I've said that, let me go back to the story. I do not forget, I do not forget.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (19:28.678)
So my father gave me in marriage to Chivasuogwu so that the two

Adesoji Iginla (19:41.827)
body of

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (19:43.004)
Yes, we are now one. We can no longer fight each other. We have to have peace. We have to figure out how to work with each other. Can you imagine that once we married, we now did figure out how to work with each other? Human beings, why do we like to quarrel?

Adesoji Iginla (20:00.623)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (20:02.244)
with that incentive of we're now one. But there was a little problem.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (20:15.632)
I had another young man.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (20:20.754)
Don't make that face. Don't make that face. I had a man who had my heart. Yes, yes. Even women who lived back in my time, we had heart. Can you imagine? I know some of you think only you today know what love is.

So I had duty and I had love.

And let me tell you the kind of woman I am. I accomplished both, but these were different times. See, in my culture, at that time, amongst the Uyghur, before the Europeans came and just confused our minds in so many different ways, we basically had a sense of what you would say, kind of like two forms of marriage. Okay.

Adesoji Iginla (21:20.872)
Hmm

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (21:23.438)
so a lot of times men would go fishing you know for long periods of time so they were not always in the house so if you were

if you had less financial means you back then would do a marriage that was more like a igua. igua is you still get married but the gifts that you would give to your bride's family would not be as much and there was an understanding that the bride

Adesoji Iginla (21:56.375)
Meaning?

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (22:12.018)
can stay in your house with your family, can stay with her own parents' family, you know, or another relative or something, while you are gone. Still take care of your children, all of that, but you are sending back the resources to take care of your children. Now, if you ever got to a point where you are not providing

Adesoji Iginla (22:21.837)
Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (22:30.489)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (22:39.152)
I believe people call it child support. You people think your own is that you are very new. Everything only came from white people. If you got to a point where you are not providing for your wife and your children, that woman has the right to go and find someone with whom she wants to make a new life with.

Adesoji Iginla (23:08.815)
You

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (23:12.402)
She belongs to herself and her children belong to her.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (23:22.088)
So divorce was not forbidden. It was not taboo. It was not heaven and hell has broken loose. It was not a marriage till we die. If the marriage didn't work, it didn't work.

Adesoji Iginla (23:43.615)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (23:45.732)
Now there was another form though of marriage that was called EYA.

After a while, the daughters of wealthy men started to not like that marriage. Because with that one, the groom will buy and buy and buy and just give so much to the bride's family. It was almost like he was buying a slave.

And with that one...

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (24:32.178)
there really was not a sense of you could divorce. Because what was given was too much to most of the time ever repay back. However,

Adesoji Iginla (24:36.213)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (24:47.042)
If it did come to a point where you and the man decided, this is not working.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (24:59.556)
You, the woman, can still find relations with somebody else.

However...

All of your children with that new person will bear the name of your husband. So you're not divorced.

Adesoji Iginla (25:24.419)
That's interesting. So effectively.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (25:26.982)
Why do I tell this whole story? That is what I did. I married Chief Apoli for Mwazogun.

But I still had relations with my lover, Brie.

Birie and I had a son and Birie was quite everybody is clear on the culture and Birie and I had a son and that son was considered a descendant of my husband and that son succeeded me but let me go back and now tell you how I became Queen

Adesoji Iginla (25:56.375)
Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (26:04.815)
the chief.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (26:18.482)
how I became, you people's language just annoys me, how I became a Mayanabo. Are you ready to hear that or do you have a question for me?

Adesoji Iginla (26:28.041)
No, go on, go on, go on. I do have questions, but go on.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (26:30.812)
You have, you have, I think you will have questions. So you people like to think, before you people, nobody, it's not the case. It's not the case. And there's much that you can learn from those of us who came before. Yes, I was a, if, how would we say it? A fetching woman. Yes. But I was a warrior as well.

I trained and I not only trained militarily, I not only knew how to cook and how to find my way around the expectations of a woman, I learned how to lead. I listened in the royal court house.

Adesoji Iginla (27:22.223)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (27:27.294)
to the political goings on. I learned, I went with the fishermen and women and I learned the trade routes and I understood the fishing routes.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (27:49.649)
and

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (27:53.446)
I went to live with my husband and at some point my father took ill. And when my father took ill, even though he had wives, I said to my husband, I must return to Bonnie and I must take care of my father. Because I understand medicine, I understand how to care for my father. I had

studied my father very closely as a leader. I understood the temperaments of all of the different characters that made up the Council of Elders. I understood their strengths and their weaknesses. I paid attention. Those who would choose to go into leadership, there is a time for study.

You don't have to move and make a lot of noise. This is time for study. And I studied. And I studied under my father. And then when I got married, I studied and learned everything I could.

from my husband and their form of government in Azugu and learnt even more of the terrain of the land.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (29:23.39)
So when I return to take care of my father.

Unfortunately, it became very clear to me that my father, of course everybody has to die at some point, that my father was going to die soon. I also understood that my brothers were going to have a struggle amongst themselves as to who would be the successor. And of course, at no point in time did any of them ever consider

Adesoji Iginla (29:51.339)
Okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (29:57.34)
that although I was really superior in terms of my training to them because I did not expect anything to be handed to me, whereas they had a little bit of entitlement.

They did not at all consider because in the history of our lineage at that time, no woman.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (30:24.222)
Never mind. Any of you who are in a position now where they say, ah, a woman has never done it. First of all, it's a lie. If you go and really research, you find out a woman has done it before. They may have hidden it, but a woman has done it before. But let's say that it just happens to be that this one situation a woman never has, you can. And men, what will really help us in our communities, in our families, in our

Adesoji Iginla (30:36.279)
Thank

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (30:53.854)
in the landmass now called Africa is if we go for competence.

Adesoji Iginla (31:02.639)
Mmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (31:05.958)
and not body parts.

Adesoji Iginla (31:09.551)
.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (31:13.392)
I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. Anyway, so in our tradition,

Adesoji Iginla (31:16.335)
.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (31:24.958)
When the Amaya Nabua dies, the person with the tusk, do know that we used to have elephants? We used to have elephants in this area. Now, if you talk to any person, even 70 years and younger, they've never seen elephant in our region, the people today. But when I was a young woman, of course, even to my old age, we had elephants. And so,

Adesoji Iginla (31:34.287)
Interesting.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (31:53.146)
the elephant tusk there was a particular tusk that the amayanobo had and the amayanobo passed it on before their death so whoever had that tusk was the rightful heir that was the successor that was the person who was going to be the next amayanobo

Adesoji Iginla (32:12.432)
successor.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (32:20.776)
But I also understood having the tusk is not enough.

You must have the confidence of the warriors.

So the whole time I was taking care of my father, I was tending to the matters of the state. I was making sure that the palace guards were properly taken care of. I was showing interest in their needs.

Adesoji Iginla (32:42.128)
Mmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (32:57.296)
Did your mother used to do this to you or your grandmother? What does it mean when you do like this? Listen, listen, listen, listen. If you want to be a leader, listen, you must care about the people around you. Not to use them, like to really care.

Adesoji Iginla (33:00.378)
Yeah, pull your ear. That means you need to listen and...

Adesoji Iginla (33:19.522)
intentional.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (33:20.764)
You need to care. When you just, you're such a big person and you don't see the little people, let trouble come out and you now need those little people. They too will not see you.

Adesoji Iginla (33:36.432)
you

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (33:39.864)
So I took care of the guards.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (33:47.598)
I understood, I told you, the weaknesses of the Council of Elders.

when my father took his last breath and went to be with our ancestors.

Adesoji Iginla (34:10.218)
the tosk. Mmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (34:19.262)
at the mini. I have

Adesoji Iginla (34:23.224)
the king.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (34:29.277)
and then up row.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (34:35.08)
They tried to galvanize to see how they could forcefully get the task, remove me. The palace guards closed ranks.

Adesoji Iginla (34:46.67)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (34:48.528)
This is our leader.

Adesoji Iginla (34:54.384)
It was too late.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (34:56.145)
It was too late.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (35:01.682)
But, I understood it's not enough to get the title. Some of you just want title. You have to now be willing to do the work to serve your people.

And so I embarked on a mission.

to try and resolve a lot of conflicts in the area. Some we were able to resolve diplomatically and some that required us to go to war. I led the war effort. I didn't send the soldiers out. I led the war effort. One of the things I am known for is the Iku-ba.

Have you heard of the Ikuba?

King Jar Jar later when before he became king he actually tried to really renovate this Ikuba but the

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (36:09.264)
nonsense missionaries eventually destroyed the whole thing. The Ikuber, known as the house of skulls.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (36:25.2)
When we try to make peace with you and you say no, war is the only way.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (36:35.147)
One of the things that we would do is for those that would not surrender that we captured.

we would behead them and we had a literal house of skulls.

Adesoji Iginla (36:57.38)
Hmm?

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (36:57.69)
and it was to serve as a deterrent for others who did not want to live at peace. Not for us to oppress you, but to live at peace. But if you felt like you would come and rule over us, then we were fighting till the death of it.

Adesoji Iginla (37:08.868)
Okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (37:22.654)
You know, we can have a conversation about what is right, what is wrong. I'll entertain it. We can have that conversation. We did not willy-nilly kill people. We did not kill from afar.

where somebody is just sleeping and you just drop something on their house. We fought face to face.

but those were our times.

and I stayed as the Amayanabu, very well respected for the peace that I brought to our region, for the prosperity that flowed out of peace. Some of you people think that war somehow benefits you.

Adesoji Iginla (38:26.659)
booty.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (38:26.834)
Because if you are at war, then you're always afraid to even sleep. Because you're always afraid that those people, even if you vanquish them today, that tomorrow they're going to rise up and get their revenge. Peace actually helps everybody. So under my leadership, we were able to establish a much more peaceful

Kingdom as you people will call it. We do not call it Kingdom. your language is bothersome.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (39:09.382)
and

Women.

not just because of my example because obviously I came out of a certain tradition in the first place but certainly encouraged and boldened by having the Amayin Amor B female also continue to step into their roles. So back then we basically had parallel roles in the sense of if a woman

Adesoji Iginla (39:43.876)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (39:47.154)
violated a law of the land. She went before a group of women. If a man, in fact a lot of times you would start with your age group. So, now that I said that, so when you people in your law now you say, jury of their peers, and you say, we're so smart, we're the first ones to come up with it, we had age groups.

Adesoji Iginla (40:07.726)
Yes, yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (40:16.22)
So if two people in the age group are having an issue, it's the age group, it's their peers that will first try to resolve the issue. If it can be resolved, then it will go up and then you have the women's council. When obviously if you have male and female and issue or issue between two families, it goes to the council of elders.

Adesoji Iginla (40:44.433)
No, this, okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (40:48.136)
But we had all these systems in place. We did not have prison. We did not have orphanage. We did not have mental institution. We did not have old people's home.

Adesoji Iginla (40:50.78)
Hmm

Adesoji Iginla (41:03.154)
of people's homes.

Adesoji Iginla (41:14.492)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (41:16.134)
And I lived in relative peace with...

Adesoji Iginla (41:24.784)
two husbands.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (41:25.054)
as the wife of my husband and as the lover of my lover. I suppose one could say that what assists under those circumstances would be the fact that the men also had other, as you would call it, options. So I was not his only wife.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (41:55.422)
But it was an understanding.

And after me, the son that I had with Biruye was actually the one who became the successor. Yes. So what questions do you have for me?

Adesoji Iginla (42:09.902)
became the successor.

Adesoji Iginla (42:15.96)
OK, so let's begin with the first.

Adesoji Iginla (42:22.64)
possible, I mean, it would be a shocker to most of our audience, which is the issue of open marriages. How did that help the

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (42:33.214)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (42:37.854)
Hey, he said open marriage. Or is that what you people call it?

Adesoji Iginla (42:39.055)
the

Adesoji Iginla (42:42.512)
That's the general terminology. It's open.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (42:46.204)
well it's it wasn't it's not open it's it's it's not like you're it's not like you so like with the igua it when you finish with the one person then you go to the other person it's not like you're going back and forth back and forth

Adesoji Iginla (42:51.728)
The way you qualify...

Adesoji Iginla (43:03.372)
I mean, okay. So even.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (43:07.57)
So what is, what do you people, when you people say your marriage is open, what do mean?

Adesoji Iginla (43:12.154)
So open marriage means obviously you'll marry, you'll be true to one person, but then you're free to go and be with other people.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (43:16.702)
Mm-hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (43:21.318)
No, this one, by the time you're with somebody else, you have already made it clear. You are not performing.

Adesoji Iginla (43:29.168)
Okay, you've been set aside. So, in spite of that, I was going to ask the question, how did that help societal cohesion? Knowing fully well that this woman used to have the eyes of this man. And obviously you're going to be cohabiting in the village or the town as it were. And you are going to be interacting at some point. How does that?

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (43:30.884)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yes.

Adesoji Iginla (43:58.356)
register with the society and the individuals involved.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (44:05.916)
I'm not sure I'm understanding your question.

Adesoji Iginla (44:08.112)
Okay, so the point I'm asking is, did it feel any awkward? It's like, hey, that used to be my wife or she's our wife.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (44:20.414)
Hey, wait a second. Is she property?

Adesoji Iginla (44:26.136)
Well, there is a...

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (44:31.14)
no the thing is that i think you people's view of things is she is she your property is he your property

Adesoji Iginla (44:42.48)
Okay, looking at it through the lens of... Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (44:44.286)
If you lived in a house and then for you people that sell house, you know, we didn't sell houses. lived in a house all the four hours. And then somebody else lives in the house. You go to the person's house and get upset because they're now living in the house.

Adesoji Iginla (45:04.948)
No, you're not upset but then I'm looking through the lens of our times where we use phrases like, that's my woman, that's my man and that element of ownership.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (45:10.911)
I don't know about your times.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (45:21.638)
Well, maybe because back then men did have multiple wives and we had this system where a woman could have multiple, technically multiple husbands. You know, we had situations where a man who didn't have sons could actually ask his

Adesoji Iginla (45:27.748)
Okay.

Adesoji Iginla (45:37.53)
So, Polyandry.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (45:51.428)
daughter not to marry But to have children and all the children she has now answered the father's name So what is why should any man feeling it is her body is her body is she is it good? So we didn't have the issues that you people have now now in my community. We have all those issues because

Adesoji Iginla (46:03.854)
Wow.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (46:19.268)
all the Christianity and this that and other but did Solomon did in the Bible they did not say Solomon is the wisest man

Adesoji Iginla (46:28.56)
you

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (46:29.822)
Who was Solomon the wisest man? had 700 wives. I don't know how many concubines. They still said he was the wisest man. Then you people want to come and talk to me and be upset about we did not do one man, one wife. Take it up with your God, even self.

Adesoji Iginla (46:45.261)
Okay, so using that as an entry point, the Solomon analogy. What was the role of the missionaries once they interacted with Boni and how did that impact the culture?

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (46:48.84)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (46:59.974)
Let me tell you, it took them some time. was after my time. But even during my time, they would come with like hat for you to wear, you know, little something. you know, there's this path of human beings where if you can have something that the other person doesn't have, you think it makes you special. So these were some of the ways that they were wooing us, you know? But we held on strongly.

Adesoji Iginla (47:20.1)
the flex.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (47:29.95)
to our culture. We did not during my time, they did not penetrate too much, but they were starting to make inroads. Things like, you know, getting us to give up our salt and to buy their own salt. I look at it now and say, what type of madness was that?

Adesoji Iginla (47:39.376)
Okay.

Adesoji Iginla (47:50.448)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (47:52.05)
Yes, because we're right by the Atlantic Ocean. We used to have a salt, sell our own salt. And then they come, their own is look, it looks a little different. And they always start with the elites. That's what you people call it, right? They always start with, and they say, this is what the commoners eat, but you are better. So this and that. And the next thing, then the commoners also want to be in that group. And that's how we left our own.

salt industry to now be importing from them. So back to your question. Initially, we were very strong in our faith. We did not give them much room, but even that temptation of just trading with them and gradually you see that infiltration. so by the time you get, it took them a while, but by the time you get obviously,

Adesoji Iginla (48:23.344)
Hmm.

what you already have, yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (48:51.428)
into the mid to latter part of the 1800s. Aha! Now they have armed both sides in Boni, set up a civil war, and we have blasted each other. And that is how Opobo now became born. Opobo was born out of people who fled from Boni and then started their own place. And Boni never recovered.

Adesoji Iginla (49:06.798)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (49:17.85)
Wow. Wow.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (49:20.956)
But at that time, they had so broken the backs of so many of the leaders, getting them to sign treaties and so on and so forth. And of course, not too long after that, you had the Berlin conference anyway, where they just completely took over the continent. But a lot of the leaders who were resisting, some of them were killed. Of course, some like Kenjaja were deported. Some committed suicide.

Adesoji Iginla (49:51.268)
Ralla lambi.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (49:51.408)
rather than to allow the white man to have control over them or their bodies. It was a very difficult time, but not under my rule. That came later. But eventually, you know, maybe arrogance, we had given them land, and then those people that were not treated as well in the community now became converts, the first Christian converts. And then here's the worst part.

Adesoji Iginla (49:56.89)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (50:03.234)
Okay.

Adesoji Iginla (50:18.335)
Okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (50:22.34)
the Amaya Nabu and the Council of Chiefs, they started sending their children to England to get educated because they understood, which on some level makes sense, they understood that they didn't understand the English, the white man's English or his language.

that they were being cheated because how are you doing trading with someone and you have to wait. They write something, you say, okay, what did you write? And they tell you, but you don't know for sure that that is what they really wrote. You see, so they were always cheating. So they determined the best way to equalize power is to send their children and they had money, whether they were trading human beings or trading ivory tusks.

Adesoji Iginla (51:09.732)
Mm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (51:18.342)
Trading oil they had money so they now send their children to go and be trained in England and Often those children will stay with missionaries or with some beneficiary or something like that. No beneficiary. What do you people call it? Benefactor hey you people's language. Okay, what is okay? One is a factor one is a fishery. Okay anyway, so

Adesoji Iginla (51:37.025)
factors.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (51:47.654)
What would happen is those children

will now go and be so infected with the white man's virus that when they come back to Bonnie this is how they walk in the street.

Adesoji Iginla (52:04.304)
You

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (52:07.58)
They can't breathe the air here. Their noses are up here. can't look. was beneath them. They are looking for their cup of tea. in their heads and their hearts are the words of their oppressors. And their eyes are now glazed over and the lens through which they see their people.

are the eyes of their oppressors. King Peppal's son, much later, King Peppal's son was the one who because he was a very weak king, he was a very weak amayonabu, he could do, nobody respected him. So what did he do? He went and called the missionaries and told them, yeah, come on, set up. He knew that they wanted to set up.

and that they will also have the backing of the government and the guns and everything.

Adesoji Iginla (53:11.408)
day, Europeans.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (53:17.296)
The people still took him out and he had to leave but then he came back again and this time with force and as soon as he got back in he wanted to destroy all of the people he considered his enemies not understanding he was destroying his culture and they completely destroyed the any of our shrines the Simingi they they destroyed the

Adesoji Iginla (53:23.13)
with the help.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (53:45.822)
the of skulls and the totem at that time for for burning people was the agama lizard sorry no the monitor lizard do you know what these people did

Adesoji Iginla (53:48.056)
All set.

Adesoji Iginla (54:01.84)
Hmm.

Go on, tell us.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (54:06.655)
kill them all.

Adesoji Iginla (54:09.68)
So if.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (54:10.194)
So when I tell you about the environmental destruction that comes with...

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (54:18.002)
the mindset of these colonizers. Our area of Boni looks nothing today like what it looked like in my time. When you see our dances and you see the masquerade and the animals and everything, you cannot find those animals, most of them today. They're dead. But before, every family

Adesoji Iginla (54:42.8)
Extinct.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (54:47.506)
had an animal totem. And if you had an animal totem, you didn't worship the animal, but you didn't kill that animal. It was a form of preserving your ecosystem. Do you understand what I'm saying? But these people have no respect. I have gone so many different places, but hopefully this gives you a sense of who I am as

Adesoji Iginla (54:50.102)
available around them.

Adesoji Iginla (55:04.578)
Yep.

Adesoji Iginla (55:14.288)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (55:16.638)
They call me That is who I am. And my message to my daughters. Learn. Pay attention. Put your hand to everything that you can. Treat everybody with respect. Try to leave everything better than when you found it. And you will make a difference.

Adesoji Iginla (55:39.856)
Hmm.

Thank you very much. And I would love to also leave it on that very positive note and call to action, which is just ensure that you contribute to the conservation of things around you, be it community, animals, and don't just become a wanton consumer of everything around you. Instead,

you know, contribute your own little effort to ensuring that things get better. We have to thank you for coming through. And again, Bonnie is another milestone in terms of what is possible and what would happen when we ourselves destroy what it is we should hold valuable.

because I believe there was a gentleman who wrote a book a couple of years ago titled The West and the Rest of Us. And that book is the perfect explanation of the story you've just walked us through, which is they come in and they look around. They see the people that we don't consider to be human and decide, you know what, this is our inroad.

Aya Fubara Eneli, Esq. (56:51.518)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (57:09.902)
Let's use them to destroy the others, and they do. And time and time again, that has become the way to go. That said, thank you. But next week, we'll continue the story. looking at the life and times of Celia Cruz. Yes, Celia Cruz is next week. And I thank our audience that have made it there.

staple to come through to see down and understand what it is that women have done and continue to do and hopefully work and help us you know push the message out again do like share subscribe the audio version of it will go out tomorrow you can download that and listen at your leisure and also share it that's it thank you i'm in able

for coming through. And again, my name is Adesuji Igenla. This has been Women and Resistance. Until next week, it's good night and God bless.