Episode 8 - The one where I fangirl at Joél Simone Maldonado

In this episode, I have the opportunity to sit down with Joél Simone Maldonado and squee in her presence.  We talk about her career, her story, her opinions, and so much more.  

Joél Simone Maldonado, affectionately known as The Grave Woman, brings over a decade of groundbreaking expertise and innovation to the fields of end-of-life, death and grief care. As a sacred grief care practitioner, licensed funeral director and embalmer, award-winning educator and speaker, Joél is dedicated to empowering professionals, organizations and governmental agencies to create and implement culturally sensitive protocols and inclusive practices that honor diverse cultures and traditions. She serves on the Board of Directors for Compassion & Choices, is the co-chair of the organizations DEIB committee and volunteers with the African American Leadership Council and is the host of The Death & Grief Talk Podcast. 

Joél is most proud of being the founder and lead instructor of The Multicultural Death & Grief Care Academy which specializes in providing culturally sensitive continuing education resources and training for professionals, leaders and teams; empowering them to navigate end of life, death and grief care with compassion and competence. The Multicultural Death & Grief Care Academy is the go to resource and training ground for those in the health, death and grief care industry seeking a meaningful professional change of pace.  

Joél’s insights have been featured in numerous media outlets, including both the New York & LA Times, NPR, Inside Edition, Glamour Magazine, Good Housekeeping and many others where she has shared key perspectives on the importance of cultural competency in funeral service. Additionally, Joél has a robust speaking history, having presented at prestigious industry events such as the American Society on Aging Annual Conference (2025), Teracon (2025),  the National Funeral Directors Association International Convention & Expo (2024), the Super Death Care Conference (2024), The Green Burial Conference (2021), and many other prominent gatherings in the death care industry.

You can find her online by searching for "The Grave Woman"

You can find me online at www.dearpsychopomp.com

or contact@dearpsychopomp.com

I hope your weekend is gentle and full of opportunities ♡

Transcript

Dear Psychopomp (00:02.104)
This is Dear PsychoPomp. If you're new here, welcome. If you're not, welcome back. As usual, please note that I am not a professional psychologist, doctor, or lawyer. The information and discussions shared on this podcast are not a substitute for professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Some of the topics covered may be emotionally intense or triggering. Your wellbeing is important, and I encourage you to prioritize self-care as you listen. That said, I am...

So very honoured to introduce Joelle Simone Maldonado, affectionately known as the Grave Woman. She brings over a decade of groundbreaking experience and innovation to the fields of end of life, death and grief care. And Joelle, thank you so much for joining me today. I just wanted to say that you're my absolute hero of the death care industry.

You are you are setting the standards for me as a death doula

The Grave Woman (01:05.278)
my gosh, thank you so much for having me in and thank you. Thank you, I don't know what to say to that.

Dear Psychopomp (01:11.648)
Yeah

No, just soak it in. It's awesome. I was wondering if you could tell our listeners a little bit about what you do in your passion projects.

The Grave Woman (01:25.734)
Definitely. So, what do I do? I'm a funeral director and a licensed funeral director in Balmer and death care educator. my passion projects, my number one passion project is just life, right? Like just staying alive. That's fun.

Dear Psychopomp (01:49.345)
Mm-hmm

The Grave Woman (01:50.398)
I'm very passionate about my family, my husband, my dogs, and my academy, the Multicultural Death and Grief Care Academy.

Dear Psychopomp (01:59.918)
I love that. What are your dog's names?

The Grave Woman (02:03.58)
Love and Amore. Love is a 13 year old chihuahua, chihuahua Yorkie mix. She's adorable. She's grumpy. She's bitchy. She's fabulous. And Amore is a miniature poodle chihuahua mix who is two years and two months old.

Dear Psychopomp (02:06.316)
Dear Psychopomp (02:12.814)
Yeah. Small dog, yeah.

Dear Psychopomp (02:28.302)
Aww, just a baby. We have two dogs as well. And Juno is 100 pounds, pure knees mix. And Bzu is 135 pounds of Akbash and Mastiff. And just, she thinks she's a cat.

The Grave Woman (02:49.746)
Gosh, at hundred and five pounds.

Dear Psychopomp (02:50.414)
My very own weighted blanket every night. are... thank you. Yeah, they just... it's amazing how much animals can add to a household with like the spirit of the house and I love it. I love it. We have nine animals and I would have so many more if we had more space and I could convince my husband.

The Grave Woman (02:56.144)
They sound marvelous. I love the name.

The Grave Woman (03:06.141)
Mm-hmm.

The Grave Woman (03:19.666)
Okay, I have to know what are the other animals.

Dear Psychopomp (03:22.904)
Three cats, two parrots, and two lizards. A little bit of everything.

The Grave Woman (03:30.844)
Yeah, that's that I love that for you

Dear Psychopomp (03:34.402)
I love it for me too. It's just all the good vibes. So, you mentioned that you were an embalmer and I've been wanting to talk to an embalmer for a very long time. That's something I want to get into as well. Just that, that sacredness of, of the consistency of after death care for, for that person, for the family. And I think it's.

It's such an important job that doesn't really get a lot of airtime, you know what I mean? It's one of those things that we're scared to talk about and ask. so I won't ask you about the process or anything like that, but I'm wondering how, like first of all, how long have you been in Balming for?

The Grave Woman (04:27.848)
So, full transparency, I have not worked in a funeral home full-time for over three years. When I was working in a funeral home full-time, I embalmed.

The Grave Woman (04:49.31)
trying to think back.

The Grave Woman (04:54.598)
about six or seven years.

Dear Psychopomp (04:58.316)
Wow. And so how did doing that, being a part of that process, change your perspective on death?

The Grave Woman (05:09.594)
my God. It completely flipped everything upside down. I remember being a little kid and going into the embalming room with my uncle.

and not having a perception of like mortality really or like grasping it the way that I do now. But the moment that it changed for me, I remember distinctly. I was in mortuary school and after class we had what was called lab, right?

Dear Psychopomp (05:31.982)
Mm-hmm.

The Grave Woman (05:43.934)
where we went into the atrium and we watched an embalming being done by the class ahead of us. And the person that they were embalming was an autopsy case. And in the lab, there were mirrors on the ceiling so that us in the atrium could look up and see what was happening inside of the body.

Dear Psychopomp (05:51.555)
Mm-hmm.

Dear Psychopomp (06:09.902)
Whoa.

The Grave Woman (06:12.654)
And in that moment, it hit me that all that this is is a vessel. It is a marvelous vessel. It is a phenomenally designed vessel, but still a vessel. Our souls, our spirit, our essence is what makes us, if that makes sense.

Dear Psychopomp (06:39.508)
Absolutely. I feel the same way.

The Grave Woman (06:43.378)
that has been reaffirmed on so many levels, not just through embalming, but think about when a person is born and they're a baby, right? That spirit still exists with them then, that soul still exists within them, but that vessel is totally dependent on others, right? When people, if we're blessed enough and fortunate enough to become old,

Dear Psychopomp (06:59.98)
Yes.

The Grave Woman (07:07.854)
and maybe through Alzheimer's or sickness or just through the aging process itself, it's just that vessel that's again dependent on others, you know, but that soul and that spirit still exist within.

Dear Psychopomp (07:23.38)
Absolutely. That's what makes us human and that soul and that awareness.

The Grave Woman (07:26.642)
Mm-hmm.

Dear Psychopomp (07:34.124)
You know, if you've ever been around anyone as they're transitioning, you can feel the electricity and the energy in that room after. It's almost measurable to witness that. it's difficult, of course, but it's also a blessing to be able to be a part of that.

It's not often I get to kind of nerd out about death with other people, so... I think this interview is more for me than it is for you.

The Grave Woman (08:13.758)
I'm just glad to be here.

Dear Psychopomp (08:15.546)
thank you, thank you. It's, a lot of people ask me, most people ask me, like, how can you do that? It's terrifying and depressing and death is not depressing. The grief is. Absolutely. The emotions around it. But the closer I am to death, like ever since I used to be a cemetery director back in the day and been in death doula for a couple of years now.

And like you said, my life has flipped upside down. The closer you are to death, the more alive you feel. And it's almost...

Like it brings me joy because I have that perspective of, like one day my song is going to end. What do I want it to sound like? Who do I want to play with? Like, you know, who's going to orchestrate this? Like I'm in charge of my own song, right? And I'm just, I'm just wondering, you know, my metaphor is life is a song and what's your perspective on life?

The Grave Woman (09:28.124)
Live life, love hard.

Dear Psychopomp (09:30.235)
Mm. Yeah. Well, and love. think that's the... that's the meaning of life. If it's not the meaning, it's the reason.

The Grave Woman (09:38.814)
Great.

And it's so interesting you use song. I'm kind of going to go way off in the deep end here, but I think we're together. So I don't feel judged or anything. I was actually messaging with my sister this morning. Do you know that song? It's like, that I used to know. That song, right? Speaking of embalming, I worked in a corporate funeral home in the prep center. And so it seemed like whenever I

Dear Psychopomp (09:59.768)
Yeah.

The Grave Woman (10:09.652)
was in the embalming room and really into embalming or learning from someone or working alongside someone that song would come on. I used to have that song literally you talk about nostalgia brings me back to that place. And was sitting in my car this morning and heard that song. And I often had the thought that

in real time when hearing this song in the prep room.

That song brings up the thoughts for me. Have I died a thousand times? Have I lived a thousand times? And every time I hear this song, it's almost like it's happened again. And I'm in the act of caring for someone, but what if this person is a version of me in the multiverse? And I'm so close to death and have gotten the privilege and the gift of

Dear Psychopomp (10:48.846)
Hmm.

The Grave Woman (11:09.982)
the fear around seeing it firsthand and I'm now in the place where I'm caring for myself throughout these timelines if that makes sense. And then when I would hear it outside of the funeral home it would be like gosh did it happen again? Like it brings up that feeling. I don't even know if that makes sense but

Dear Psychopomp (11:19.534)
Mmm.

Dear Psychopomp (11:30.882)
Yeah.

It does, it makes perfect sense, yeah. That's one thing I say with presentations that I do is, know, is easy, the body knows what to do. There's the withdrawal of elements, it's, you know, if you do get the privilege to grow old, because, you know, not all of us do. And...

just to...

be able to have, I don't know, just music is such a universal language. And it's so beautiful. And I mean, you always hear people say like, I'm going to play this song at my funeral. Because it just, it, can touch your soul and give you that perspective that, you know, I have lived.

The Grave Woman (12:12.958)
Mm-hmm.

Dear Psychopomp (12:34.894)
through many, many things and I have died through many things. The loss of self, the loss of identity, loss of a loved one, each time that happens, you are a new person with a new reality that you have to navigate and get used to. And I think...

It's really hard because people hold on to grief because that's kind of the last emotion that they had for that person. And they think letting go of their grief means they have to let go of their person.

What are your thoughts on that?

The Grave Woman (13:20.54)
I don't necessarily believe that grief is an emotion. And one of my students taught me that. She said it to me, and so I'll say it here, grief isn't an emotion, it's an experience. And the Housewives inspired me a lot, particularly in this case, the Housewives of Beverly Hills. I was watching the reunion, and Andy was questioning Kyle about, you know,

Dear Psychopomp (13:34.702)
Mmm.

You

The Grave Woman (13:48.542)
relationship with Mauricio and if she wanted to get back together and those things and Kathy Hilton became extremely emotional and Andy asked her why are you so emotional about this you know do you want them to get back together and she said yes he couldn't believe it because if anyone watches the show they know that Kathy was not a big fan of Mauricio and she said I don't like things to change I would rather things be the same

Dear Psychopomp (14:12.75)
Mm.

The Grave Woman (14:15.538)
than to change. like when you think about that as it relates to grief, even when we lose a loved one, whether it be to death or to a breakup, right? It's that pain of things changing in a way that oftentimes we don't have control over.

And so we're forced to bear witness to those emotions within ourselves that make us uncomfortable that we'd rather not deal with that we didn't have to deal with before they got sick or before they left or before they died.

Dear Psychopomp (14:46.604)
Yeah, like a longing of how things were, because that was normal and safe. It's the comfortable chaos versus the unknown peace.

And, and just, I mean, nobody likes change.

Dear Psychopomp (15:13.548)
when it's out of your control. When it's out of your control. Yeah, yeah.

The Grave Woman (15:15.696)
Right, right, when it's out of control. I'm controlling it out of million dollars right now. I would not be upset at all. But, right.

Dear Psychopomp (15:21.422)
No, I'm like, oh no, what a problem to have. Darn. Well, they say you attract what you fear, so.

The Grave Woman (15:31.29)
terrified of a million dollars right now.

Dear Psychopomp (15:33.278)
that's just... can't even say those words.

The Grave Woman (15:37.086)
But you're right. And I think all of those boil down to what our consciousness perceives as an experience. And of course there's emotions attached to that. Fear, anger, depression, joy, jealousy, all emotions, even the ones we don't talk about, like gluttony, eating uncontrollably or...

Dear Psychopomp (15:55.607)
Yeah

Dear Psychopomp (16:01.379)
Mm-hmm.

The Grave Woman (16:03.42)
you know, diarrhea, you know, upset stomach. Right. So, yeah.

Dear Psychopomp (16:05.784)
Yeah, it physically changes you too. Yeah. Yeah. And I think one thing I had a difficult time with, you know, I've been around death since I was four years old. And so he's kind of an old friend for me. I call him Sharon. Sharon, like, Sharon, the...

The Grave Woman (16:27.248)
sharing.

Dear Psychopomp (16:32.629)
I carry around a little obelisk every day just in case. Don't want to be stuck on the shores, but...

The Grave Woman (16:38.622)
Thanks

Dear Psychopomp (16:46.306)
Yeah, it's...

with my father passing away due to his alcoholism. He didn't even make it to 60 and he was alone and we were estranged for two years by then. So all that complex, everything on top of that and it took

like a good year and a half, and I started feeling joy and then I started feeling guilt.

I was like, no, I feel like I should still be sad. I feel like I should still be mourning. And so I sat down with myself and I like to journal and this was before I was an end of life doula. This is when I was a 911 dispatcher and I realized...

that, you know, grief isn't a monopoly. You can feel grief and joy at the same time. And you can be confused about it, but you shouldn't feel guilty about it. You are moving through, and that's healthy, and that's good. And it doesn't mean that you're forgetting about your loved one, or leaving them behind or anything, but...

Dear Psychopomp (18:24.49)
It's just you moving forward and you can have so many emotions all at once. And so it's okay to be happy while you're grieving too.

The Grave Woman (18:31.646)
you

The Grave Woman (18:38.15)
Yeah, and it's maybe a bad comparison, but it's what I hear a lot of my friends that are moms talk about after they have their babies. It's like this gaining of this new role that does not come with a book like grief. But then the responsibility of caring for

yourself but having no idea who you are anymore as yourself and losing more and more pieces of that the more that you pour into this experience of parenthood or motherhood. It's amazing how much birth and death marry each other even in the ways that we don't think about really.

Dear Psychopomp (19:08.398)
Hmm.

Dear Psychopomp (19:19.118)
Mm-hmm.

The Grave Woman (19:21.82)
And it's almost like we don't remember before we're born, but we're afraid of not remembering after someone dies. Like we're afraid we'll forget them. Or I remember when my grandfather died. I asked my grandmother, and she got so upset, but not at me, just at the thought. I asked her, do you think that he'll recognize you now that he's gone?

and she just it was like that was a thought she could not handle because in her belief system death is the end of everything.

Dear Psychopomp (19:59.789)
Right.

The Grave Woman (20:01.576)
So, yeah.

Dear Psychopomp (20:04.642)
Hmm. So what do you think happens after we die?

The Grave Woman (20:11.546)
I don't know.

Dear Psychopomp (20:11.832)
What do you- what do you hope for?

The Grave Woman (20:16.734)
hot buttery popcorn existing on the other side. Yeah. I believe...

Dear Psychopomp (20:19.662)
Mmm... Mm-hmm.

The Grave Woman (20:27.09)
from my seat of awareness at this time that...

there is a veil that separates that essence, that spirit, that soul that we were talking about our vessel being the home for. I believe there is a veil that separates that. However, I do believe that communication between that veil is possible. And because I believe communication between that veil is possible or throughout that, within that veil is possible, that automatically assumes that there's a level of consciousness on the other side.

What that consciousness looks like, I don't know, but I do believe that because communication is possible, that communication isn't necessarily random, right? And so that dictates recognition of what's still here.

Dear Psychopomp (21:21.164)
I like that.

The Grave Woman (21:21.224)
So.

Perhaps that is a pipe dream, but it is a belief system. And that belief system to me has been reaffirmed through things like spirit items, spirit animals, spirit numbers, or angel numbers, dreams.

Dear Psychopomp (21:38.494)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I your necklace.

The Grave Woman (21:41.542)
Right. The ability to communicate with what I believe to be the spirit of those on the other side. And that's just been something that I've had the ability to do my entire life without realization of what I was doing as a child. When I became aware of it, I tried to shut it off because I realized not everybody else could do it and people thought it was evil.

Dear Psychopomp (22:00.27)
Mm.

The Grave Woman (22:09.414)
I hope that there's something, even something like that, that phone never rings. No one knows this number, right? Can you edit this out? I'm so sorry.

Dear Psychopomp (22:23.168)
No, that's kind of cool actually. Like as we're talking about it, like getting goosebumps.

The Grave Woman (22:25.446)
Okay, it'll stop in a minute. It's cool for you, it's scary for me because I'm in here by myself. But, just...

Dear Psychopomp (22:33.89)
haha

The Grave Woman (22:40.582)
I believe, and I hope that it's better, but what is better when we think about love, when we think about family, when we think about connection, when we think about warm buttery popcorn, right? What's better than that? What can we conceptualize? I believe, and this is not so much about the other side, this is about the process to getting there.

Dear Psychopomp (22:51.895)
Mm-hmm.

The Grave Woman (23:13.04)
I believe that

I've always had it in my mind, I do believe in God. I don't think death is painful. I think the process can be painful, but death itself I don't believe is painful. And by that I mean, I know there's a lot of people that fear that when their loved one was shot or when their loved one was in an accident, that they felt pain in their death. I believe that there's something that almost snatches us the millisecond before.

Dear Psychopomp (23:38.19)
Mm-hmm.

The Grave Woman (23:46.163)
the impact.

Dear Psychopomp (23:47.67)
Yeah. Well, and yeah, absolutely. It's, you know, I tell my clients death isn't painful. You might have some pain to manage from an illness or something like that, but the actual act of passing away scientifically, your brain releases all the happy chemicals.

The Grave Woman (24:01.574)
Okay.

The Grave Woman (24:14.834)
Yes.

Dear Psychopomp (24:15.438)
and you know without getting too deep into it when it you know if you go into shock you're not feeling anything you're not feeling that pain so your body's taking care of you yeah

The Grave Woman (24:26.43)
Right.

The Grave Woman (24:29.96)
Right. Like people say, was in a hospital. Right. And that's kind of that phenomenal design that we were talking about earlier. that, know, right. It's mind blowing. And someone, something designed it that way.

Dear Psychopomp (24:37.984)
Yeah, the body knows what to do.

It is.

The Grave Woman (24:50.832)
I also believe that we have to earn the right to die. Death is not given, it's earned in my opinion. Even if you attempt to take your life, Some people aren't successful.

and it's because of whatever reasons but I believe I hope that there's a reward on the other side for

The Grave Woman (25:22.258)
living this part or making it through this part. We were talking about kindness earlier. I hope it's kindness. I hope there's love. I hope there's peace. Those are the things that I hope are on the other side.

Dear Psychopomp (25:34.062)
It's gotta be love. It's gotta be. And that's... You know, I'm...

Dear Psychopomp (25:44.082)
semi-spiritual, semi-scientific, and you know, I think that there are spiritual things going on that science simply cannot measure. And so we call it magic, or we get scared of it, or we reject it. But with what you were speaking about before with your hopes is...

is really aligned with mine as well because I believe in the law of the law of energy, conservation of energy, which states that one, we are all made of energy and two, energy cannot be created or destroyed and so just because we're not in this vessel anymore

That doesn't mean that we're not existing. And it doesn't mean that we can't influence energy around us. And so, you know, I do pay attention to the angel numbers and the synchronicities and the songs that my dad plays on the radio. And I'm like, okay, yeah, hi, dad, I'm listening. And, you know, in some of my darkest moments when I was...

mourning the death of my father, the lights would flicker.

Dear Psychopomp (27:18.806)
And so of course like practical scientific me first is like, all right, let's go tighten the bulb and check the fuse and blah, blah. And of course everything's fine. And so now it's, it's happened at three different places that I've lived in since my father's died. I'm like, okay, I'm listening. Like, yep, sorry. I ignored the first one. Hi dad, what's up? And it's.

it's really hard to be in grief when you can still talk to their energy and update them and there's burn letters and there's there's so many ways that you can still put your your love out there for them and i think part of the fear of of what happens when we pass away is

is just, I still going to exist?

you know, and the answer is yes, just not in this body.

and that's okay. Like, our bodies are borrowed, our time is borrowed, and we have to give it back one day.

Dear Psychopomp (28:39.138)
Yeah. So definitely, yeah, it's fascinating. So one thing I wanted to talk to you about is the cultural competency in the funeral industry. And so tell me a little bit about what inspired you to incorporate that into your teachings.

The Grave Woman (29:08.594)
guess the easiest way to answer that question would be what cultural competency in the funeral industry. the inspiration behind my focus on cultural competency was the fact that number one, I'm a black woman in a big body, know, with black woman hair, hips, lips, features, and I am loved and have been raised and

Dear Psychopomp (29:13.998)
Yeah, that's fair.

The Grave Woman (29:38.256)
surrounded by beautiful black and people of color my entire life right but then when i went to mortuary school there was no reflection of my culture no reflection of my lips my hips my hair my skin tone my language my expressions anything and i was being taught that if you want to be a funeral director you need to fit in this box and learn how to take care of these people

Dear Psychopomp (29:55.298)
Right?

The Grave Woman (30:05.958)
It's like, hold up, no. People that look like me, think like me, move like me, or shape like me, have hair like me, have my skin tone, and many others, die too. And so...

Dear Psychopomp (30:07.618)
Mm-mm.

Dear Psychopomp (30:15.991)
Mm-hmm.

The Grave Woman (30:19.89)
there it went to being on the job and becoming tokenized. I don't know how to take out braids, you do it. Or I share this story all the time of walking into the embalming room and the funeral director was cutting off the woman's braids from her scalp, essentially cutting off all of this hair. Or the fact that my hair stretches when I pull it, you know, and when it comes in contact with water, it shrinks.

Dear Psychopomp (30:42.807)
Yeah.

The Grave Woman (30:48.132)
and seeing people completely blown away and thrown off and charging families to figure out what to do about that. It's like, no, no, no, no, hold up. Our standard protocol is to shampoo, condition, and prepare decedents, white decedents.

Dear Psychopomp (30:56.593)
The Grave Woman (31:08.616)
for the beautician to come in. Why is that not the standard protocol for the family? For a black family or for a black decedent, right? Common sense to me. And so being frustrated about that, being frustrated by being told by white medical examiners that I need to call the funeral home and make sure that you're the one that's supposed to take this decedent. I just happened to steal a funeral home van and show up at your medical examiner's office knowing this person's name and where they're going. Okay, sure.

Dear Psychopomp (31:15.746)
Yeah.

The Grave Woman (31:38.572)
know, with people all around the world who are like, I had to go in and see my loved one in a state that didn't create a good memory picture for me. look horrible.

Dear Psychopomp (31:39.668)
man.

Dear Psychopomp (31:51.34)
Yeah.

The Grave Woman (31:53.214)
And it was because they didn't, the funeral home did not know how to care for a black person or a person of color. Or I'm told that my culture is inappropriate or the way that I express my grief is a disturbance to other people in the funeral home or in the hospital. And so that was the motivation. frankly, I just got sick of the bullshit. And so when I get pissed off,

Dear Psychopomp (32:09.112)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

The Grave Woman (32:15.998)
I find solutions, which I don't know is a healthy way of dealing with anger. Because if you can't tell, I'm still a little bothered by this.

Dear Psychopomp (32:22.87)
I think so.

The Grave Woman (32:27.4)
But I think it's more productive to present a solution to problems like this. And so my solution was the Multicultural Deaf and Grief Care Academy, where I educate deaf doulas and funeral directors and health care professionals and grief care professionals about all of those things. The language that we use around death with marginalized communities, with diverse communities. In about, I think it was.

Dear Psychopomp (32:31.758)
Mm-hmm.

Dear Psychopomp (32:49.282)
Yeah

The Grave Woman (32:55.432)
the statistic I saw seven years, technically white people will be the minority in the world population. So why is it that there's no education around caring for the majority of the population on the planet?

Dear Psychopomp (33:02.89)
Mm-hmm. yeah.

Dear Psychopomp (33:13.74)
because that's just how it's always been done in quotations it no it it needs to evolve with the world and it that's just I am angry for you because that's just messed up

The Grave Woman (33:18.706)
That system is It's dead.

The Grave Woman (33:36.446)
It is. don't be angry for me. Like, be angry for the milk people, like, impacted by this lack of cultural competency. And so to answer your question directly, I decided that the best thing that I could do with the information that I had was to try to eliminate the possibility of that happening for people that look like me.

Dear Psychopomp (33:40.566)
I'm angry for the f- Yeah!

Dear Psychopomp (34:01.518)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

The Grave Woman (34:04.112)
And the way to do that was through educating other people that have the skill set that I have.

Dear Psychopomp (34:13.166)
That's a...

That's just heartbreaking that that's even...

Dear Psychopomp (34:25.582)
Deep breath. So what's the basic thing that you try and just portray if you could put it into one sentence for the listeners about cultural competency while we're alive?

What would you say?

The Grave Woman (34:57.968)
everybody's the same. That's it. Not everybody's the same. And so because of that, like, not everybody grieves the same, not everybody expects or respects the same things when we are transitioning, when we're dying and we're grieving.

Dear Psychopomp (35:02.958)
That's just reality, yeah.

Dear Psychopomp (35:23.18)
And it's, yeah, it's... That's one thing that made me want to become a Dath'ula was having those conversations, those life reviews, doing those legacy projects to be able to find that peace before they pass away.

and you know so that no one has to die alone if they don't want to. I I know some people like to to not have an audience you know they'll wait till after the great show but it's

Yeah, that's just so succinct. Every single person is different.

Dear Psychopomp (36:13.294)
So, how have you found the reaction to the courses that you teach? A lot of people signing up. Yeah? Good. Yeah?

The Grave Woman (36:28.542)
for

The Grave Woman (36:32.208)
And it's overwhelming in a lot of ways. It's overwhelming, especially when I first started back during COVID. Myself and my mentor, Ms. Grant, taught a course called Racism in Death Care. And literally overnight, it went around the world. had hundreds of people sign up overnight. So many people signed up, we had to do it multiple times a day for two days. Yeah. And...

Dear Psychopomp (36:47.662)
Wow.

Dear Psychopomp (36:56.163)
Wow.

The Grave Woman (37:00.164)
It really, I mean the timing was perfect. It was COVID, people were thinking about death and dying. There was a lot of media coverage and then it was again being pissed off about George Floyd, right? What's the best solution that we could, what's the best thing we could do? Like how can we create, you know, something positive, not from his death, but from the attention around death and dying right now, right? But.

Dear Psychopomp (37:26.465)
Mm-hmm.

The Grave Woman (37:29.106)
That was overwhelming. And it's been overwhelming to me to hear back from the professionals that I work with about the impact that little simple things that I'm able to share in an hour and a half have had a profound impact on the families that they serve. Like it moves me to tears almost every time.

talking to students in Australia, in Europe, in Canada, in Puerto Rico, like what? You signed up for people? Like it's overwhelming. Things have definitely slowed down, but the fact that even people like yourself reach out and say, I wanna talk, like it's overwhelming.

Dear Psychopomp (38:03.735)
Yeah

Dear Psychopomp (38:16.334)
In a... in a good way?

The Grave Woman (38:20.902)
in a humbling way. It makes me feel like it's not in vain.

Dear Psychopomp (38:22.476)
Yeah, I mean...

No, like look at... like you did this. You made this happen. That is an amazing legacy. Absolutely amazing. You know, I always say like you can't change the world, but you can change your corner of the world. And you're just a shining star with that. And it's...

Amazing to be able to speak with you.

The Grave Woman (39:00.328)
I so appreciate that. And I, we talked a minute ago about what I believe is on the other side and that there's consciousness. I can't take credit for it. I feel like, and I'm getting emotional thinking about it. I feel like I am, my point, my purpose in being in this vessel is people that came before me that couldn't say the things that I say publicly.

that couldn't call it out, that would be murdered for speaking truth to power.

The Grave Woman (39:38.515)
Yeah.

Dear Psychopomp (39:40.246)
well, you're doing one hell of a job. And it's so healing for the generations that came before you.

The Grave Woman (39:44.135)
I appreciate it.

Dear Psychopomp (39:52.232)
and just bringing that peace is...

Wow.

Dear Psychopomp (40:02.83)
I like that. So, as you know, everyone has their death myth. Their one thing that they're scared of. And usually it comes from, you know, like some kind of loss that you've had, you know, as a child or things like that. What is or was your death myth?

and has being in this position changed it?

The Grave Woman (40:37.106)
I think I have two.

Three actually. The first, like yourself, my uncle drank himself to death.

He didn't even make 50, he was 49. And so I share in your heart, I could feel it in my heart when you spoke about your dad. And I want you to know that we're connected in that way.

Dear Psychopomp (41:07.022)
Yeah.

The Grave Woman (41:10.012)
And the myth about that is that what would make a person be in that much pain, and that leads to the second, which is suicide. That the only source of comfort is alcohol or the idea that you no longer want to exist in this vessel, in this consciousness, in this reality. The third.

is car accidents. They're so random. They're so...

Unexpected.

Dear Psychopomp (41:50.126)
Yeah.

The Grave Woman (41:50.502)
and leave such a feeling for me of incompleteness.

You literally get in your vehicle thinking you're going to a destination and you never get there. And it's something that we all do voluntarily, daily, multiple times a day. It's insane. Yeah, those are it for me.

Dear Psychopomp (42:06.914)
Yeah.

Dear Psychopomp (42:14.946)
Yeah, yeah.

Dear Psychopomp (42:22.286)
Yeah, you're putting a lot of trust into yourself and other people when you get into the driver's side of a vehicle. And it's just, I always drive like, you're in a hurry? Cool. Go ahead of me. Pass me. I'll move out of the way. There you go. Like, I'm not in a rush. I think my death myth is still...

The Grave Woman (42:30.93)
Yeah.

Dear Psychopomp (42:51.798)
with what happened with my dad. I don't want to die alone.

Dear Psychopomp (43:01.326)
I don't necessarily want to be surrounded by loved ones kind of thing, but, you know, my husband, my chosen family, my animals. And I think that one day, I hope that one day...

when I do die. I have like a whole time of day that I want it to be, everything like that. I have planned the ideal death for myself and it is outside in nature by some water with some animals. Anyways, I picture when I'm passing away that my very first dog ever

jumps out of my dad's arms to come see me.

wagging his tail and being all crazy. His name was Doug. He was 16 years old. He was a palm, palm terrier mix.

Dear Psychopomp (44:10.304)
I did not deserve that dog. The universe just blessed me with the perfect dog. And that made me think like, ooh, I'm going to get more. And not all dogs are the same. That was a fun, fun lesson. But yeah, I think I'm at, I tried to be at peace with myself.

with self-discovery, with journaling, you know, really getting to know who I am and knowing that every day I'm doing my best, I'm seeing what my body can do and accomplish and even on the days where I'm sick or just staying in PJs all day, like I'm filling my cup, cool.

And so I kind of feel like that mitigates the fear of a sudden death. Because every day before I go to bed, I can write my journal and be like, today... Today was good. Even though bad things have happened, even though I'm feeling grief, I got air in my lungs. I'm still alive. That means I've still got some fight in me. And, you know, let's do this.

Yeah.

Dear Psychopomp (45:44.974)
Damn.

So what is...

your story. Like my story is my father got me back into the death care industry when he passed away. And I find that anyone in the death care industry, have that story that's like, they had a loss of some kind. And they're like, Kate, that's it. I found my calling. This is what I want to do.

So, would you mind telling your story?

The Grave Woman (46:27.262)
When I was eight years old, I drew a picture of myself standing in a cemetery with a microphone and it said, I am the Grey Woman. I had on red lipstick, a purple suit, and some purple heels, and some red nail polish, and if anyone's ever seen me speak, I always wear red lipstick. I have on pink today, but normally red. My grandmother...

Dear Psychopomp (46:53.71)
Hmm

The Grave Woman (46:56.792)
saved that photo for years, 10 years, and put it into a scrapbook that she made for me when I went off to college. This scrapbook sat in a box for another 10 years, until I was about 28 years old. And...

Dear Psychopomp (47:14.158)
Yep.

The Grave Woman (47:16.252)
Just before graduating mortuary school, my sister and I were going through some boxes in my apartment and she found this scrapbook with the picture that said, I am the grave woman. Now the funny part about that story is that I had recently started a blog, recent to that time, started a blog called the grave woman. I was talking about my experience in mortuary school and in getting ready for my apprenticeship.

And so yeah, it's self-fulfilling prophecy. And on a deeper level, I feel as if those spirits that occupied those vessels that couldn't speak up, right? That couldn't call out the nonsense and that couldn't say this is wrong, whispered in my ear at that time and told me who I'd be. So here I am today.

Dear Psychopomp (48:15.906)
Wow, I'm like goosebumps.

That's yeah.

What did it feel like for 28 year old you looking at?

that drawing.

The Grave Woman (48:31.806)
Freaky Freaky like how what? How is this possible? I had no recollection of drawing a picture My grandmother tells me I used and I live in the house now but my grandmother tells me that I used to lay on the kitchen floor and talk

Dear Psychopomp (48:42.734)
So.

The Grave Woman (48:55.612)
to people like I do now on stage. Like I used to tell them, people are gonna pay me to tell the truth and pay me to talk to them and I'm gonna get paid to talk. Like she says I used to lay on the floor and talk like I talk at conferences now. I guess I imagined it, self-fulfilling prophecy.

Dear Psychopomp (49:19.874)
Yeah, that's neat. Or it was just destiny, right? I do believe in destiny to a certain extent. I believe we all have choices, for sure, but destiny is just... it's a feeling.

The Grave Woman (49:23.442)
Destiny

The Grave Woman (49:33.255)
Mm-hmm.

Dear Psychopomp (49:43.79)
and what a feeling that is, hey? What would you, go ahead.

The Grave Woman (49:51.174)
It's that feeling. I was just going to say it's kind of that feeling I get when I hear that song we talked about. And I had it this morning. I had it. Like I felt life slow down. This morning.

Dear Psychopomp (49:58.37)
Yes.

Dear Psychopomp (50:06.794)
It's... I love those moments because they're humbling and they're grounding because I'll go, you know, trudging through the house doing my domestic duties and taking care of the animals and I'm like, life is good, blah blah blah and then I'll have that moment and be like, whoa.

What am I doing for myself today? How can I serve others today? And it kind of gets you out of that routine. And you're like, shit, I'm alive. Whoa! Cool. I'm going to go enjoy this for a while. Yeah. So before I let you go, I have one question for you.

With where you are today, what would you tell 8-year-old little you? If you could go back.

and give her some words. What would you let her know?

The Grave Woman (51:31.112)
Keep listening to those voices. Don't turn them off. They're not evil. They're not bad. They're...

Dear Psychopomp (51:33.518)
Mmm.

Dear Psychopomp (51:37.582)
trust them.

The Grave Woman (51:45.064)
They're, they love you.

The Grave Woman (51:51.28)
and ultimately that voice is you.

Dear Psychopomp (51:51.47)
Beautiful.

Dear Psychopomp (51:55.406)
Yeah, you're a speaker for the universe. You are the universe expressing itself.

The Grave Woman (52:04.764)
Yes.

Dear Psychopomp (52:07.202)
Yeah, beautiful, beautiful, thank you. And so where can listeners find you online?

The Grave Woman (52:14.674)
Just type in the grave woman on Google or go to thegravewoman.com or the grave woman on YouTube or the grave woman on social media. I'm the grave woman everywhere. I'm proud to say I own that shit. Like I am the grave woman.

Dear Psychopomp (52:19.809)
Yeah.

Dear Psychopomp (52:29.08)
Good, yeah, you're like, that's me, yep. Awesome, thank you so much for being on the show today. Thank you so much for your time and your energy, and I hope we can stay in touch.

The Grave Woman (52:42.822)
my god, yes, this has been one of the most meaningful interviews I've ever had. Like, you asked great questions and you got me emotional. No, it's amazing.

Dear Psychopomp (52:48.568)
home.

Thank you. I'm sorry. I have that.

I have that effect, I keep making people cry and I'm sorry.

The Grave Woman (53:00.744)
Okay, it's beautiful, it's beautiful. Thank you, thank you.