Season 3, Episode 2 // Griefting with Lauren Seeley

Join Anne-Marie and Lauren Seeley in a heartfelt conversation about grief, memorialization, and creative healing. Discover how art and community can transform the grieving process and honor loved ones in meaningful ways.

grief, memorialization, death, art therapy, community, loss, healing, mortality, creative expression, death doula

Lauren Seeley's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/aahsweetdeath/
Morbid Anatomy Workshop - https://morbid anatomy.org/
Hamnet - Movie Recommendation - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10366460/

You can find me online at Linktr.ee/DearPsychopomp

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

This is Deer Psycho Pomp. Let's talk about death. I'm your host, Anne-Marie, and today we're doing an Ashes and Echoes episode that I'm really looking forward to. My guest today is Lauren Seeley. She is a wonderfully amazing and beautiful human being with an extensive and eclectic background in the death and grief space. She's an artist and a designer with a passion for memorialization and funerary storytelling. She's worked in aftercare for pets. She's worked as a funeral director's assistant, memorial and funeral curator, and an aftercare assistant. She's also the facilitator of two monthly mortality-based book clubs where anyone can come to speak openly about death and mortality, and they can actually have conversations with authors on grief and death, which is just that's huge. She's hosted talks about grief, death, and loss with musicians and artists and photographers and authors. And she's focusing on building community and finding creative ways to honor grief and loss, which really I think is so needed to have those rituals and those, you know, being able to regularly honor it. And uh, she's also currently teaching for many different schools and institutions. And one of her current partnerships is with the Metropolitan Art Museum. And as a very proud nerd, I've got to say that I'm I'm feeling kind of in awe. So thank you so much for being here with me.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Yeah, it's my pleasure. Um sometimes the easiest way for me to sum up everything that I do is I'm a creative in the death space. And usually um what that means is just um I am a death doula and I do all sorts of work, um, creative and aftercare and uh grief. So if you combine those three things together, there's really like a majority, like a not majority, sorry, there's really like um a lot of things that you can do um with all of that.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

So and I like how with with being artistic and expressive, it's it's a universal language to be creative. Right. Which I I really love. Um yeah, and today's episode actually is is kind of special. I'm calling it griefing. So what I like that. Oh, thank you. What we're gonna be doing is just having a candid conversation while we're doing some crafts and just like support each other and and show how easy it can be to just talk about your grief. Um and first of all, uh Lauren, what what craft are you doing? What are you up to over there?

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Um, well, for I mean, most of the time when I'm crafting, I'm probably making some sort of altar or a memorial project for somebody or one of my pets or something that I'm grieving in my life. Um, but currently I am working on um, I just kind of cut out a piece of cardboard and then uh use some thread to sew it together, but I'm making um sort of like a little altar um for just grief in general. Um in the world right now, and I don't have a specific grief of my own. I'm just grieving for other people because I know there's a lot of heaviness um for a lot of people right now.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 3:56

That uh that collective grief and that disenfranchised grief of just I'm grieving, but I don't know how to grieve it because it's just so much bigger than I am.

SPEAKER_03 4:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

You know.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

Well, you know, and I did I did recently um, you know, uh have a loss. Um my bird passed away. Um, my 22-year-old bird passed away in January. And um I I'm planning on making a special um a special memorial diorama for him um in a workshop that I'm teaching on Saturday at Morbid Anatomy. Um so I would be working on that today, but I'm saving that to do um with students uh because I always make something in my crafting classes. And so um I'll be making that for him. But today um I was just more or less thinking about just all the loss and grief in in my life um as someone that holds space for grievers and just um the way that I I carry that and you know work with other people and can feel their grief through the work that I do.

SPEAKER_02 5:19

It's it's hard. And um what what's your bird's name? Uh his name is Birto. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

What what uh kind of bird? He uh was a cockatiel, and he was um we used to call him uh old man Bertobeans. And uh he was a grumpy little guy, but he he had a rough life before we adopted him. And I think that he was pretty happy. He just um you know, he's kind of a grumpy old man. And yeah, we had he he was 22 years old. We had him for 17 years, and um, yeah, it's just weird. You know, you get you so used to hearing his little song in the house and then it's gone, and that was really hard. And um, you know, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:23

Like birds are a really different kind of pet.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Yeah. Well, they're not even a pet, they're just you live in their house and they tell you what to do.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

Yeah. And I mean, in most in most uh conversations uh that I would have Zooms, um podcasts, things like that, he would get really excited if he heard me talking, and you would always hear him in the back of like classes that I teach, Zooms that I do. And um yeah, I remember I was um teaching a class, um, actually a pet, a pet loss grief uh class last month. And um uh uh a student that has been in a few of my classes noted that she didn't hear him singing in the background. She knew he had passed, but she said it's hard because I get used to hearing him in the background, and now he's you know I don't hear him. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

I uh I have two birds right now. Uh they're still pretty young. Like they'll they'll live to about 30. So I'll I'll have them for their whole lives, but I I lost one they just it's amazing how hardy they are, but also how delicate they are. Yes. And you know, she uh she died from shock and that was just man.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

Cause there's there's so much work you gotta put into birds just to to gain their trust. Yeah. And it's just you know, I felt like I I let her down. She is so delicate. Yeah. She had a good seven years. She had a very good seven years, so yeah. What kind of birds did you or do you have uh they are green cheek coniers.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

Oh, I love them. Yeah. Da Vinci is he's a turquoise yellow-sided mix. Very beautiful, and a little bit of a runt. And Michelangela is just a regular green chiconer with like the red on the chest, and and she oh, she's so floofy.

SPEAKER_02 8:55

She's very sassy too. Love a floofy sassy bird. Right? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

I I'm not allowed to wear my glasses around them. Oh yeah. I cannot have nail polish on.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

Some rings are okay, but the color lime green is terrifying.

SPEAKER_03 9:17

Oh no.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

And uh it's spring.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

And every year I say just never try to kiss a bird in the spring.

SPEAKER_02 9:31

And every year I try to kiss a bird in the spring, and then I get bites all over me. So Did you get a bite? A recent bite. I yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

I I got a really good one. And my my bearded dragon she took a good chunk out of my skin too.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

She just got up from uh from broomating. Oh I missed her. Did you uh did you have fun teaching Brito about like funny noises and kisses and Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

He um he used to have, I mean, there was I had four birds total when I first got them. I've had birds my entire life. Yeah. My entire life. Like since I was five, I've had at least two birds my entire life. Um, my I guess it this this is a rabbit hole I could go down, but um I come from a family of a family pet shop. So everyone in our family uh has a had a zoo in their house growing up. All the animals you could imagine altogether. And so I had my thing was birds and I had them my whole life. And you know, one passes away and you don't want the other to be lonely, so you get them a mate, and so on, and so on, and it keeps going. And at one point, I ended up on my own as an adult with um four birds, and then little by little they passed away. And he had never been alone before. So he had his, you know, his buddies, and they would just I would just let them out and they'd wander around the house and whatnot. And uh when we moved here, his uh his mate, our other cockatiel taco, passed away um when we moved to New York. And um, so he was alone ever since then. And I just was like, I I I don't want to just keep getting another bird just for the sake of getting another bird. Um, it gets harder and harder every time I lose one. And um so he was alone, so we tried to um we still took him out. We just have cats too, so we couldn't let him wander like I used to when it was just the birds. Um, but you know, he had his little radio and he was happiest like taking showers. He'd like to come in the bathroom when we take, you know, when someone would take a shower and he'd sing.

SPEAKER_03 12:29

Uh-oh.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

He'd come in the shower with me and sit on my feet or sit sit on my shoulder and sing.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

Get serenaded while you shower.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Yeah, it's the best. And you know, they they need showers. So yeah, he I mean he was a pretty pretty happy guy, and um I talk to him all the time. I probably talk to him more than my kids. Um but we had a good little routine every day and it's just it's hard, you know? Um he he was friendly, but he didn't really like interacting with people as much as his other other siblings did. Um he kind of liked to be to himself. He did he never really liked to be handheld unless he was going somewhere he liked. Um But yeah, I enjoyed spending time with him and um figuring out the type of music that he liked. And he had his own little radio that we would leave on for him during the day when we weren't home so that he wasn't completely bored and alone. What was his favorite? Really liked jazz. Um like really liked jazz. Or if I was playing some sort of gothy music while cleaning the house, he really loved that too. But yeah, enough about me. What are what are you currently thinking about in the grief space? What are you grieving?

SPEAKER_02 14:16

You know, I've been having a a really hard time with my friend who died um last year, or I guess it's it's been over a year now. Jeez. Uh a year in December. And I've never I've never told the story in full, so I don't think I've been able to really process it that well.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

Um and I've been doing it slowly with with journaling and you know, burn letters and and stuff like that. Lately there's just been so many reminders.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

And you know, so many like big, big changes in my life that I just wish I could call him and tell him and hear him make some stupid joke about it or something, you know, just I don't know. Yeah. It's I I still have things I want to tell him and and it's um It's weird how sometimes the reminders are like, oh, you know, it's like kinda cool. Kind of like he's checking in. And there's some other reminders that just pull the floor from your feet.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

And then you're you're suddenly back in that that grief spiral, because like well that's that's something too, like grief grief and healing and everything, it's not linear, it's a spiral.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

You have to keep coming back to it and that's how it gets easier to deal with. Not easier, but it doesn't get easier, it just gets familiar.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Yeah. Like I always I always tell like my clients like it's it's not going to get good, but it is going to get better.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

You know, it's not always gonna feel like this.

SPEAKER_03 16:31

But I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

Sorry. Sorry to hear that. That's so hard. It's so hard losing someone you're close to, especially someone you're really, really close to that's a friend, and I feel like society doesn't give us enough recognition for the loss of friends and what that feels like.

SPEAKER_02 16:54

Of course, yeah. When it's so it's when when why not?

SPEAKER_01 17:01

Yeah, I mean I don't know, it's I think it's it's different as a death thula because when people find out what I do they feel comfortable to tell me their stories.

SPEAKER_02 17:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

Uh which I think is is just so wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

Because you know, there's only so much you can do in therapy and groups and and you just I don't know, I've been having a a hard time remembering to let myself feel those emotions.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Yeah. Because of all this stuff going on. Like I I know I need to. I know I want to, but I feel like I I can't do it proper justice yet.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

If that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 18:07

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

I think so. And you know, I think that um, you know, grief is not linear and it will show up in different ways for everyone. I think as long as we acknowledge that it's okay to grieve and to, you know, sit with our grief and not to push it down. There's no like rush to feel better or heal or move on or any of the things that we're supposed to do within three business days. Um, you know, I think that if you're lucky, yeah. I think that just giving ourselves that permission to like let it happen how it happens is like so important because then you know, if it doesn't because some people it doesn't process, you don't process it right away. Sometimes it happens, you know, and for most people, like in bits and pieces down the road. And I think that if you just say, you know what, it's okay. It's okay if I'm sad, it's okay if people don't understand. Um, you know, it's okay to want to talk about my person or my pet. Um, and it doesn't mean that there's something wrong with me because I choose to continue the relationship with them after they're gone. Um, just giving ourselves that permission to feel really is the is is the biggest thing.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

I think I think you're spot on. I think part of it is permission. I almost think like added on to that is the fear of opening those floodgates. And like, yeah, will I be able to shut that off? Like, is it gonna stop? Because when you're in the middle of it, sometimes it feels like it's just never gonna end. And when you're in that kind of mindset that this is it, like this is gonna do me in. Nothing like this this is it's a very passionate topic of mine. When people are like, oh at least this and oh at least that and silver lining and and blah blah blah. And that's when it's just the absolute worst time to hear that, and that's usually the exact time you hear it is is when it's at its worst, and it's it's such a hard feeling when you're in grief and people are trying to comfort you in ways that like you're you're so grateful for them thinking about you that you're like, maybe don't tell me that my dad would be happy I showed up to his funeral. That happened. With I didn't even know that person was. I had never met her in my entire life.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

And and she had the audacity to to say that I just you know, I I feel like people just and and it's not me excusing like it sucks to hear things like that, but it's I just people I think people just don't know what to say. Like most people just they they get um it's that awkward um, you know, there's that there's that meme um about being awkward when someone tells you you're pretty and you say happy birthday. I think it's like that for people, they just don't really know like what the correct thing to say or the Correct response is and it just comes out. And I feel like most people, I mean, how many times have I said something that I am embarrassed about afterwards? And I'm like, God, why did I say that? That's so weird. Why would I say that? I just didn't know what to say. And I try, I try to think about that as like the common response to people giving their condolences, is they just they just don't know what to say. And they do their best and they will probably fail, but it's it's always like they it was coming from a place of love. Because I hear it's so common, it's so common that um clients that I work with say that, you know, oh my friend said this, and they said at least this, and now they're in a better place. And I'm like, yikes, nobody wants to hear that. And I said, but you know, at the same time, I think that most people don't know what to say. And that's that's why we talk about this. That's why we want people to understand and normalize grief, is because I think that if they thought about it more and normalized it, that it would just feel as normal as having a conversation about anything else, you know?

SPEAKER_01 23:16

Yeah, like being honest when someone says how are you doing today, and you're like, honestly? Not not too great. And and if they ask you, like, hey, do you wanna do you wanna talk about it? Do you want to chat about it? Then of course.

SPEAKER_02 23:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Of course, like don't don't trauma dump on your coworker, but you know, it's it's okay to say I'm not doing well. Can I talk about this with you? And it's I one of the things that my clients say when when I try and like encourage them to talk about stuff is like, well, I don't want to be a burden.

SPEAKER_02 23:55

And it's like it's it's such an honor.

SPEAKER_01 24:01

And everyone knows this too. It's such an honor to be able to help out a friend and and be there for a friend in that kind of capacity. Yeah. And so many people are like, well, I would I would drop everything and go see my friend. But when it comes to them, they're like, oh no, I don't, I don't want to bug anyone.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

And it's like you're not bugging anyone. You know, make sure they're like in a good place to talk, but it's the the burden of friendship is worth it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

And I mean, I think it's I think it's okay to expect your people and your circle to hold space for you in really difficult situations. I mean, yeah, I think that that's a I was gonna say that's a lot of the reason why people come find me is because they feel like other people don't want to have those conversations with them. And and as much as I I am grateful that they that I'm able to guide people through difficult times, I just wish more people were able to have those conversations with people they love. You know, um less I wish there were less of a need for me.

SPEAKER_02 25:26

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Like I I can I can say really nice things, I can try and comfort you, but it's not the same as someone who knows your history with that person and everything you've gone through with them. And you know, I feel like it's I I I couldn't do it justice because I don't really know them.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

It's like of course I'll help, but you know, it's I think part of it too is is that hyper-independence from childhood trauma thing.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

My bearded dragon decided now was the time to be loud.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

Cute. That's my girl.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

Well, I want you to know that the red is gone and now it's just black.

unknown 26:23

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

I made a mistake. Are you gonna do that?

SPEAKER_01 26:27

And I was like, are you gonna add some white? Make it gray?

SPEAKER_00 26:31

Um, no. I think I think what I'm gonna do is just go in the original direction that I was planning on going. Um, the good news is I have glitter pieces that are shaped like moon, stars, sun, stuff like that. So I can just put stars all over the back. Um I think I'm gonna, well, I'm contemplating waiting for it to dry or just throwing the stars on. Thank you to the little girl in my building who left these in the free pile. I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01 27:07

Aww.

SPEAKER_02 27:09

Everyone needs some glitter.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

Yes. This is my little my little void altar honoring the void.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

Or a portal. I'm making a portal, I'm making a miniature portal. To the heavens Yeah Yeah what's um I don't know. Like what's your opinion on especially as a uh a fellow Death Gula when you're grieving, do you find or even just in general, I suppose, that not a lot of people check on you because they think you're just super strong and impervious to everything?

SPEAKER_00 28:13

Well, yeah, so you know, this has been on my mind too is like um uh, you know, I lost a a very, very close best friend um a year and a half ago. And um my way of my way of dealing with grief is because I've had so many profound losses in my life, is I I go real hard in the beginning. And then I because I am you know able to communicate with people after they pass, then I kind of just go, oh, goodbye to you on the earth side, hello to you in the spirit world, and then they're with me. And so that's kind of how I grieve. I still have those moments where I miss them on earth, but it's a little different for me, right? So um so I my my way of grieving because of being able to communicate and get visitations is a little different just because I I know it's not the end. I'll see them again, I'll hear from them again. Um and so going through a loss is still going through a loss. I it still hurts me the same as it hurts people that don't understand where to put their grief or how to process it. Um, because I'm a human. And I find that I'm the first person that everybody calls in when someone dies. But when someone dies in my life, uh it's crickets. Because I think that people assume that, oh, sh you know, she's fine. She talks about it all the time, she knows what to do, and I'm like, yeah, I still need like my friends to check in on me though.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

Yeah, there's only there's only so much you can do without that community because otherwise you just sit at home and and you get stuck in that grief, and like some people are so stuck in grief they think they're just that's just how life is, that's how it goes.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:20

Which just makes me so sad.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

But yeah, and I mean it doesn't, it's not like when I say it like, you know, I I get over it a different way. It's not getting over it, it's just learning how to live with it a different way because you know, I know I'll see them again. Um, but I mean, yeah, I had like an incident last week where I had heard a song that was a very, very sensitive song, and I've been avoiding this song for a decade.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

Because I knew that it played a part in the loss of one of my friends' life. So I had never heard the song before, and it finally caught up to me. And I I mean, I definitely felt like it was a message, just it's a whole long story I won't get into, but I mean, I was crying for like an entire day, and I hadn't, I mean, and my friend died 10 years ago, you know, and so we never really get over these things, and there are always going to be things that bring feelings up, things that trigger those old feelings. And um I think that it's just important to recognize that just because you go on with your life and you keep, you know, um, you keep going, it doesn't mean that that person will be gone for from your life and you'll never think about them or be sad about them again.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

Yeah. I mean it's it's like any relationship.

SPEAKER_02 31:50

It's it's going to change. It's it's going to evolve. It might you know it's I don't know. The thing that Sorry, that just uh reminded me of something.

SPEAKER_01 32:13

Well it's it's Is there even a I know like there's a whole bunch under the umbrella of of disenfranchised grief.

SPEAKER_02 32:27

But the kind of grief that happens when you kind of grow apart from older friends.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

And you know there's always one side that that still wants to be in it or or you know, whatever happens, whatever you're grieving. And it's a really different kind of grief being on the receiving end of of someone releasing me from their life.

SPEAKER_02 33:06

Yeah. And it's it's hard.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

You try to remember like the the good times and and respect their wishes, but it's still there's still those moments of like, was what what did I do? What could I have done differently?

SPEAKER_02 33:30

Because that happened to me um It's like a couple years now. Maybe maybe two, two and a half years. You know, one of my my dear friends just kind of disappeared.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Yeah. And so I was I was worried, you know, I was I was like even texting her family, like, is everything okay?

SPEAKER_02 33:56

Um yeah, and it turns out she just didn't want to be friends anymore. And that's that's so hard.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

That's so hard because you you feel like at least knowing why would make it easier for you to have closure even if it's not what you want to hear.

SPEAKER_01 34:17

Oh 100%.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

I would rather have to process the difficult truth than be ghosted. Yeah. Like, okay, I I know I can be overwhelming um to myself when when things are going on.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

And you know, with grieving my dad, you know, I I wasn't on the other side of of that grief until I think it took me like six years to really, really feel like myself again because my dad dying messed me up really hard. Like I mean it still does, just I don't break down into hysterical sobbing at the grocery store anymore when I see someone who looks like him.

SPEAKER_02 35:23

Yeah, I just even just like an email or a text, like not feeling it anymore.

SPEAKER_01 35:29

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

No, I agree. I I think that I think that being ghosted is one of the hardest things because um you know, we don't we don't always know what we do wrong. Um, and then we're kind of left wondering, you know, what could I have done differently? What did I do? And it's you know, not not having that closure of being told um this is why is so difficult.

SPEAKER_03 36:01

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

And it's I it like pokes at your ego, of course.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Because you're like, why me? I'm awesome. Um, and then you have to do the introspection, which is really hard. You're like, okay, where in here was I possibly not being a good friend.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

Um, and also fighting with like is it something that I could have fixed if I would have known about it?

SPEAKER_01 36:42

You know, like I I can't fix it if I don't know it's broken. You know, if there's a way I'm acting or something that I say that that makes them uncomfortable, like tell me. Don't just be the yes man and take it and and whatever to not cause a kerfuffle. It's easy enough to say, like, hey, can you like not do that? It kind of triggers me a bit. And it'd be like, oh you know, you're in charge of teaching people how you like to be treated beyond the whole like basic respect and and everything like that. Like it's it's up to you to say, hey, I I don't dig it when you do that.

SPEAKER_00 37:27

Yeah, and I think sometimes it's it's also like another way of looking at it um that I have over the years because um I mean I've had I've had friends in my life that I thought we were really close. And it turns out they hated me behind my back. And um I just kind of realized that, you know, that's a sort of that's sort of just being incompatible. Like, um if you if you um oh I got paint all over my finger, that's where that came from. Okay. Um trying to glue on skulls before my paint is even dry. That's my mistake. Um, I think if a person is not willing to have a conversation with you and would rather just disappear, um, I mean, then you're maybe you're just not compatible, honestly. Like, because I feel like relationships are two-sided and it's important for people to communicate what their needs are and what they don't like. It is. I mean, you you can't people can't read each other's minds. And I think I don't know, maybe it's just from you know being honest and being on the spectrum, like I will tell people if they're bothering me or doing something wrong, or something that I don't, I don't something I feel like is crossing a boundary. And I don't feel like everybody does that. I feel like some people are just they'd rather, you know, get along until they they don't anymore.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

Not not rock the boat or whatever. Yeah, I find it um It's it's just it's so much insecurity and everything just going around that prevents people from being able to just like, hey, I don't even have a word for this, but it doesn't feel great. Can we like chill for a sec? Yeah. You know, you don't I mean having the terminology is important, of course, but I mean, as as you know, on on deathbeds or when you're doing grief work afterwards, how many times have have you heard like I should have said this to them?

SPEAKER_02 39:54

And so that's like I am emphatically against leaving anything unsaid. Yeah, sometimes it gets me in trouble.

SPEAKER_01 40:07

I don't always say the best thing for the situation, but I'm like with with my people, my loved ones, I'm gonna be honest and I love them so much that I will have those difficult discussions with them.

SPEAKER_02 40:30

Do you know what I mean? Like Yeah, it's important.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

Yeah. Well, and if you have to really, really care about not just the person but the relationship that you've built.

SPEAKER_02 40:43

Like you have to maintain friendships too, not just romantic relationships.

SPEAKER_00 40:52

And that's true, you know, and and I think that if more people treated relationships with, you know, like um relationships with friend like friends like they did relationships, romantic relationships, then um, you know what is going on? Oh, I see. Okay. Sorry, I keep smearing paint all over my skulls. Sorry, guys. Um yeah, if more people if more people treated, you know, relationships like that, I guess what I'm trying to say is that um uh friendships would last longer. Um because there's, you know, in romantic relationships, like we know how those can go, but with friendships, it's it's it's so different. It's you know, we're going to listen to each other in a way that not everybody in romantic relationships do. In a good romantic relationship, you will have that communication and you'll listen to each other. If you say, I don't like when you do this, and they say, Wow, I didn't realize that you um that I was doing that or you didn't like that, so now I'll stop doing that. Um, that's the way that it should be because that's respect. And in friendships, you hope that that's the same. It unfortunately, I think a lot of friends will not say anything until there's a blow up, and then at that point, I think the tension's already been there. You know, and it happens in romantic relationships too, and it's like, well, why didn't why don't you just say the thing that you didn't like, you know? Um yeah, uh use your words. Who knows?

SPEAKER_02 42:33

Yeah, use your words, who knows why. Yeah. I mean, and I I I hate being placated. Like, oh it's fine, it's fine, nothing is fine.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

It's like mm, like I the amount of time that it would take to have that uncomfortable conversation is monumentally less than it takes sitting with that anxiety and that insecurity and that uncomfortableness that you're not expressing.

SPEAKER_02 43:17

Yeah. You know, if you just express it, then it'll be done.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

And then it's not gonna stick in your head forever. But I mean there's some people who who feel that their emotions are their identity.

SPEAKER_02 43:38

Like they forget that they're the feeler, not the feelings. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:50

You know, when you see angry bitter people because bad things happen to them, it's like Of course you're angry. That's o it's okay to be angry.

SPEAKER_02 44:01

Yeah. But you don't have to make yourself suffer for however long just because someone did something at you or or to you. It's it's I don't know what was it? I found this quote. I was like You are what happens to you. You are not what happens at you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:34

And I was like, that's that's so true because you know the big life changes that I'm I'm going through right now desperately trying to navigate. It actually has nothing to do with me. It's one of these situations I'm just I'm I'm in the crosshairs.

SPEAKER_02 44:55

And I just have to adapt and it sucks and it's hard. But it'd be way harder if I was just in denial about it. Yeah. You know.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

And at the same time, it's that that cliche thing again. You know, my friends will tell lick one day at a time, and I'm like, I know, but no.

SPEAKER_02 45:25

I'm trying to get through this minute right now a whole day? Are you kidding me?

SPEAKER_00 45:34

You know, I realized, I know this is kind of off topic, but I did not ask you what you're working on. What are you working on? I am you can't tell what it is yet.

SPEAKER_01 45:44

Uh I'm cross-stitching a chicken. Oh, I love it.

SPEAKER_00 45:50

I love I love that it's a chicken. I don't, yeah, you're right. I can't tell what it is, but I'm happy with the direction it's going in. Well, that's his like his little comb.

unknown 45:58

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

And that's the tail feather. And that's my my needle mind, is a little egg riding on the bacon sled. Because I'm an adult with adult money. Yeah, exactly. Because I can. I will put whimsy into frickin' everything I possibly can.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

Yeah, exactly. I'm definitely not doing that today, but there will be stars. See, I have a little little pile of skulls.

SPEAKER_02 46:27

Oh. I have uh I have skulls like that.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

Um I got it was like a 30 pack. And I I put them in my my one plant pot. So it looks like a little graveyard. How cute.

SPEAKER_00 46:45

I love that. Yeah. And we see those little graveyards, uh, the little, you know, um headstones and stuff on Etsy to make your terrariums into a graveyard, and I think it's so cute.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

Yeah, I love that. I um I I won't name the website, but there's a place that I've gotten off-brand building bricks from.

SPEAKER_02 47:10

Uh, so uh I'm making a whole scene.

SPEAKER_01 47:15

There's a guillotine uh with some heads in the basket, and Kratos from God of War is the Undertaker. And there's a a giant grim reaper standing by, and there's a little graveyard uh where she's like super happy digging a hole that has a head in it, and then there's a headstone uh that says R.I.P. My dignity. And I got a little like flower garden going on. Like this is what I do for the cards.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

I love it. Yeah, I mean this is normal.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

Listen, you you have to you have to craft. I do. You have to craft. Well, and what would you I mean, I think I kind of just answered my own question. Because I've been in in such a a funk lately that the thought of crafting doesn't excite me or light me up anymore.

SPEAKER_01 48:22

Yeah. And it's really hard to get back into things that give you joy when you're like, I'm supposed to be sad right now. Um But I mean that's also part of like embodying yourself and just keep doing your stuff even if you're s just do it sad.

unknown 48:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 48:40

But when when we came up with the idea, all of a sudden I was like, what am I gonna do? What I can paint, I can make a necklace, I can do some cross stitch.

SPEAKER_01 48:55

I was like I can't do anything that'll make me swear, so crochet is off the table.

SPEAKER_00 49:05

Is that a big a big swearing craft for you?

SPEAKER_02 49:07

Oh I'm unless it's just a blanket or like I'm not good at counting the stitches. Even with the stitch counter things. Yes. I like to just like I'm just free balling this. I like to just have fun and and make up my own patterns and and stuff like that. So like honestly, thank you very much. Of course. It's really nice to just I don't I forgot how much it just lights me up. You know.

SPEAKER_00 49:53

Yeah, and I mean a lot of the reason why I do well actually not why I do, um when I do crafting with other people, it's always around grief. It's always around a loss or a memorialization. And I feel like it it helps so much to have something to to make something tangible in a space of grief, um, that most people don't realize it till they're doing it or till they're getting ready to do it. And even just the anticipation of doing it for some people is it does like lift their spirits. Um, and then some people feel like, oh my gosh, I don't know what I'm gonna do. What am I gonna make? You know, and then by the time they're done, they feel better about what they've made. And I feel like whichever way you are approaching that, um in the end, the result is that crafting is therapeutic, it's cathartic, you know. Um like today I don't I don't have any like specific thing that I'm currently like in deep grief about because I'm always grieving something, but I just always enjoy crafting, and I'm working with other people that like to craft, um, and they enjoy it and it makes them feel better. And so for me, it's like I'll figure something out. I always do, and I always enjoy doing it.

SPEAKER_02 51:28

Well, like you said, I think that it's absolutely therapeutic.

SPEAKER_01 51:34

Because you get to look, I'm I'm just making little X's here, and I my nervous system is regulated, I can focus on our conversation better because it kind of when you have that little thing to focus on, that's not super important. Crafting is important, but you know what I mean. Um you can just come out. A different kind. If you're coloring, you can kind of just zone out, but you're still listening. And I find being in that kind of zone actually makes it easier to process grief. Yes. Process anything really is to be able to just kinda shut down those intrusive thoughts for a little bit and get a chance to have your head and your heart talk to each other.

SPEAKER_00 52:33

Yeah. And it's it's so important um to make time for joy, even if in that joy you're grieving and you're sad, you know. Um they can they can exist together. Oh yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:51

The process of being able to hold a paradox so far from from all the research and everything I've been doing is the first step towards healing. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 53:09

And I I think about it as, you know, alchemy. You take um something, you know, difficult and strenuous and you turn it into something beautiful. And some of the most amazing works of art, pieces of literature, um songs, you know, have been created from that alchemy of sadness.

SPEAKER_02 53:36

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 53:36

I mean Edgar Allan Poe, there's Shakespeare. It's it's all beautifully human. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:47

And oh, that reminds me. Have you seen Hamnet? Hamlet? Hamnet. Hamnet. The movie. I have not.

SPEAKER_00 54:01

Well, if you ever need to cry like ugly cry for two hours straight, I suggest watching it. Okay, okay. It's a beautiful, beautiful film. Uh, very sad.

SPEAKER_01 54:15

Have you seen since we're sharing crying movies? Have you seen uh what was it me before you or you before me?

SPEAKER_02 54:25

No. It's good.

SPEAKER_01 54:29

Oh man. It's even got like references to like, you know, uh assisted death and grieving and growing and learning, and it's just got a little bit of everything. And it's it's also kind of along the same vein as The Fault in Our Stars.

SPEAKER_02 54:53

Oh, okay. Um which I oh that movie, which is also a book, yes, is very, very eerily close to my relationship with my friend who died a year and a half ago. To the point where it's just it it made me feel seen.

SPEAKER_01 55:27

Like I want more movies where people are dying and people are grieving and so that you know, the introverts who don't want to grieve with other people necessarily can at least feel seen and heard and get those emotions out and know that like okay, it's it's not just me.

SPEAKER_02 55:48

Um I I hate how like modern stuff is just everything has to be perfect and nothing can be different and you know, how many times have I seen like, you know, there's kids' shows with like some of the kids have hearing aids or an insulin pump and and this kind of hair and and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 56:15

I'm like why why don't we do that all the time with real people? Yeah, I agree. Represent the real people.

SPEAKER_00 56:25

Yeah, no, I I completely agree. And I think that um, you know, if there was if there was more realistic standards um just in in general, like in entertainment, um, it would make people feel more seen, you know. Um and it I mean, I like I am a ex um agency model, and um, you know, I'm not a normal person. I'm not a normal looking person, and I was in an agency with a lot of people that were normal people that didn't look like the models that we are so used to seeing, and all sizes and um, you know, different bodies and um, you know, different complexions, different, you know, gender um, you know, presenting and um disabilities, things like that. And so it's like, you know, there's a need for people to have people that look like them be out there, um, you know, and and being a part of, you know, everything that we we buy, we watch, um, everything that we ingest, you know, um is you know, visually. And so I think that, yeah, I think about that all the time. It makes me so happy to see that diversity in shows and films, um, in in ads, you know. Um, and I feel like at least for you know, small tiny part of history, I got to be a part of an agency that was, you know, representing people that looked like normal people that you don't see all the time in media, you know. So I agree. And especially with with grief, there needs to be more normalization of grief and death. And um, that's why when we find those amazing films, books, uh documentaries, we hold on to them and we share them with others, you know.

SPEAKER_01 58:28

I have I would love, uh, and I may have to wrap up here soon. I would love if you made a list of of like your top three movies or books to cry to or or to like get choked up and just be able to feel the feels. And I can add that in the show notes uh for for the listeners here. And you know, maybe I'll add my top three too, and let's make some people cry.

SPEAKER_00 58:58

Absolutely, and you know there will be some Nick Cave in there. Um there's there there's there's a book. There's a book. Uh I won't, you know, obviously not there's music, but uh there's a book too. So um yeah, I think that would be great. Just and and another another thing I like to think about too, um, for you know media, books, things like that is um cultural diversity. You know, um there's so many other ways that we look at grief and process grief in other parts of the world that I think that you find ones that you know will be helpful for people that have different cultural backgrounds and you hang on to those too, because you'll get somebody um who comes from you know somewhere else in the world, but they live here and they say, I just went through a loss. What do you recommend for me? And it's like nothing that has anything to do with how we as a culture process death and grief because that's not going to make sense to you. And so um I think having that diversity in there is so important too. And so um always love to learn about different ways that different cultures um process grief and um celebrate or um process death.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:17

Absolutely, and being able to like being a death through love, sometimes you get to share in with you know, ceremonies or rituals or or parts of the death process and grieving process. And it's just like why don't I want to do this too? This felt so healing, so so amazing. There's so many other things out there that can be done to honor yourself and your loved ones that it's just mind-blowing.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:55

Yeah, and yeah, I'm incredibly grateful to be a New Yorker in the debt space because we we have we have that. We have a lot of different um cultural backgrounds. Um, so I've learned and and gotten to work with a lot of different types of families and you know, religious backgrounds and cultural backgrounds, and you learn hands-on how beautiful um their ceremonial practices are around death. And it's just makes it makes it makes you um, well, at least it makes me um want to just know everything about everyone in the world and every culture in the world and every country and how they um how they process.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:39

Well, and and it's it's a really cool thing, even just to be a fly on the wall and be able to witness it to see how impactful it is on them. And you can you can kind of feel their faith. I don't know, you can it's it's electric, you can feel it when you're in the room. Yeah. With stuff like that, it's uh it's absolutely just very humbling and very like, wow, I am so human.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:16

Yeah, yeah, so sacred, such a, such an honor to be in the space of anyone who is either on their deathbed or who has died, just to be able to be of service and and witness that is just such a sacred space, you know, and I I never take it for granted. Um, and I I always feel honored to to have that opportunity to help people in that way and learn. I mean, name a better thing than learning about anything. It's just I can't it it's just it's like you you can't get enough, you know, like at least, at least, you know, I I I can't I can't learn enough. And I feel like just I don't know, it's a topic of the day. I've had this discussion like three times today in different Zooms, but um, I just I think that to have the opportunity to learn about other people, other cultures, and how everyone, you know, um honors, you know, a loved one who has died or processes grief is just it's it's such a magical part of being a human, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:30

Absolutely, especially when when you're like invited or people share it with you, like get over here. Like it's just you know, it's it's that sense of belonging that's just you feel alive. I don't know. I always tell people, because you know, for a death dealer, like, oh, you must be all depressed and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, no, I'm actually like, I'm giddy. I'm joyful. I have unhinged joy at all times lurking around because the closer you are to death, the more alive you feel.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:11

Yes. And it it's that it's that constant Memento Mori theme that's in your life, you know. Um, you, you know, it's not the joy, it's not the joy of witnessing somebody's somebody's death or somebody's grief. It's it's knowing how precious life is and remembering in our own practice that yes, this too will be us someday. And it's not today. Today it is not us. And so we get to take this experience and appreciate the life that we have. And I think that that's what a lot of people don't understand that aren't in this space is like, yeah, it's incredibly hard, it's incredibly sad. And we do carry that grief, but we have to tend to ourselves and and you know, we get good at that, you know, hygiene, that spiritual hygiene and that mental health awareness. And um, but we also we also get that constant reminder of someday this will be us, but today it is not us. And today we get to enjoy being alive again and waking up again, you know, and so um I think that's only something that people that work in the death space truly understand.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:23

So absolutely, I agree.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:26

It's um it's just a a fresh perspective every day.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:36

And it's just you you learn so much. I could go on, I could nerd out about this forever. Um how are you how are you feeling after the heavy conversation? You want to do some breath work? You're you're feeling good, self-soothing, anything?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:51

No, honestly, I feel great. I always enjoy talking and crafting. Um, I'll show you what I made. It's not totally dry. Um I love that. It's got little stars and a pile of skulls. Um, not something I would normally make. I just felt called to make this. This is like um, I don't I haven't decided if it's like a void or a portal yet, but why not both? Um maybe it can be different. I might add a sun to it. I might add a moon to it. I don't know. I'm not done yet, but this is the direction that I went in because I was just kind of feeling like I don't have one thing in particular that I'm grieving right now. I'm grieving the world. I'm grieving what's going on in the world. And so this is kind of just what came out of that.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:43

Mass mass loss and um mass grief.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:48

Yeah, that's so cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:50

Well, thank you for thank you for sharing that with me. Um thank you for for opening up and and for listening to me and and holding that space. I I um I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:05

How are you feeling? Oh, I'm probably gonna go have a good cry.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:13

I hope that it um I hope that it makes you feel warm and fuzzy afterwards because I love a good cry.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:19

Feel so good when you're done. You're like, I just um and then you have a nap and oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:24

Yeah. Yeah. I won't tell you not to cry because I know that it's important to cry. So go have that good cry. Um I hope that when it's when it's over, you feel warm and fuzzy and you get a nice little rest.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:37

Thanks. Yeah, and I'm gonna get some some cat snuggles. Um, so before we go, do you uh you are on Instagram at uh sweet death. Yes. And where else can can you be found?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:54

Um, I mean, I'm pretty much on most social media in in that space. Um Okay. Facebook is just me, Lauren Seeley. Um I have an Aw Sweet Death page, but I don't really I don't really use it that much, I'm gonna be honest. Um, and if you want to watch silly TikToks about me talking about grief and death and making silly little faces, um, I'm on TikTok as Aw Sweet Death as well. Okay. And that's that's awe sweet death with three H's.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:29

Two. Okay. Good thing I asked. Now I'm gonna go find you on TikTok. All right. Thank you so much for being here again, and I hope we can do it again soon.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:41

Yeah, thank you. It was nice talking to you and crafting with you. You is do this more often.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:47

Yeah, let's do it. All right, you take care.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:50

You too.