[00:00:00] Welcome to episode 14 of empowEAR Audiology with Dr. Carrie Spangler.
[00:00:16] Hi, everyone. Welcome to the podcast. My name is Dr. Carrie Spangler, and I am your host. I am a passionate audiologist with a lifelong journey living with hearing challenges in this vibrant hearing world. I wanted to have an empowering power podcast for all of my listeners. Many of us learn and grow by being in communication and connecting with others.
[00:00:43] It is my hope that all of my listeners will learn something new and be empowered after each episode, whether you are a professional, a parent, an individual with hearing loss, or just want to be inspired. I am glad that you are with us today. I would be extremely grateful If you would take a moment to subscribe and give a positive rating for this podcast.
[00:01:10] Also, we have a Facebook page empowEAR Audiologist, join us and engage in the conversation about each episode. A transcript of each episode is also available on the 3C Digital Media Network web page in the section of podcast. So today I am overjoyed and grateful to have my own HEAR-O on this episode.
[00:01:37] And I defined a HEAR-O as someone who is a positive mentor, a support, a role model, and a friend. And I believe as humans, we thrive to be connected with others. And I have had the incredible opportunity to meet someone who walks in the same shoes and is truly a gifted connection. So let me introduce my.
[00:02:01] HEAR-O today. Her name is Karen MacIver-Lux, and she is an audiologist and also a certified auditory-verbal therapist. She is the co-founder of Thrive Together and she provides auditory learning services for individuals of all ages with hearing loss and hearing disorders in The Toronto Canada area.
[00:02:29] She is the president of Sound Intuition, a company that provides online learning experiences for professionals around the world who serve individuals of all ages who have communication disorders. She not only enjoys helping babies and young children learn to listen and talk with their hearing technology, but she also enjoys working with older teenagers and adults who want to improve their listening skills with newly acquired hearing technology by providing auditory skills training.
[00:03:04] She has made numerous contributions to the literature on the topic of aural rehab, but children and adults, and she has co-edited two textbooks on auditory verbal therapy. The most recent one published in 2020 called Auditory Verbal therapy, science research, and practice. And that is available through Plural publishing.
[00:03:29] She is a frequent guest lecturer in Canada and the U S and conferences around the world. She likes to say she's doing exactly what she dreamed of doing when she turned 11, which is a great segway into Karen. Thank you. Thank you for being on this podcast. I'm so excited to have you today. So welcome. It's so much fun to be here with you, Carrie.
[00:03:58] I always like to, um, kind of start out a podcast with how we know each other. Do
[00:04:10] remember that moment? Oh my gosh. There's so many more reasons than you do. First of all, you know I was doing a practicum at the University of Akron and, um, the supervisor that I had is a hard. Task masker. I should really say that hard task master. She, and, and, you know, those are some of the best teachers that we have, you know, in life.
[00:04:45] Right. And so I was nervous. It was my first day of working with her to top it off. I mean, it was very nervous, but, and, uh, so I remember grabbing your chart and.
[00:05:00] Is it okay if I talk about your yes, definitely. I'm an open book. You are definitely allowed to talk about that. Okay. No, I remember opening up your chart and I remember thinking, Oh my gosh, this girl has a hearing loss.
[00:05:17] So much like mine, except a lot more at a thousand Hertz, but the configuration much, we call a ski slope is really not that common. Right. And I was like, Oh my gosh. And this girl is close to my age and wow. Let's see what she's going to be like. And then, um, and then. I saw you walking to the room. And I said, wow, like she's so not only is she gorgeous, but.
[00:05:51] You know, with your bright, mouth smile, you're tan, you're blonde hair, your blonde back then, and university shirt on and so happy. So like just joyous. So I'm looking forward to the future and what it was about to bring you and. I thought, wow, like this is so amazing. And the reason why it was so amazing to me was because, and this is when I have to give you a little bit of a backstory.
[00:06:29] So when I was younger, the only person I ever met with a hearing loss, who was my age, was somebody, a friend who I had. I had my cottage in the summertime. And her family ran this restaurant that we used to go to all the time. And we knew she had two older siblings and she was my age, same, same as me having two older brothers.
[00:06:55] And she was home for the first time from her boarding school, which is a boarding school for children who are deaf and hard of hearing. And so she had, uh, actually better hearing than I did, but she was not wearing hearing technology. And she communicated with her family using sign language and. I thought that's great.
[00:07:20] You know, so when we got together and we met each other, uh, mothers introduced, you know, as to one another and, and she would immediately, she immediately had this look of disappointment on her face when she found out that I could not sign and that I talked instead. And so she's like, what's the point of meeting this girl?
[00:07:42] I can't talk to her. So we had a pad trusting, our hands and, you know, Uh, long story short, she was sad. She was, you know, not smiling a lot. And the reason why is because she couldn't communicate with her family and she couldn't communicate with me and she was missing her family at school. Who she could communicate with.
[00:08:09] And I thought, Oh my gosh, like, you know, maybe this is what it's like for so many other people. And nobody's learning to listen and talk. Nobody's hearing with the hearing aids. Nobody is able to communicate with their family, like I can, and I felt guilty about that. You know, I, I felt guilty for being able to be me and, um, and I, you know, and I grew up, I didn't meet anybody out and it was just older people who had acquired hearing loss and, and then I'm working in the university, working with adults primarily.
[00:08:52] And then in comes the room, uh, Beautiful happy, ambitious, talkative, chatty laughy, Carrie, and I. Wanted to cry and happiness at that moment. But you know, you can't do that when you're a student clinician, especially with our supervisor, but, you know, I was just so in, I was just like, Oh my gosh, she was a specimen.
[00:09:29] Oh. And yeah, I remember that. But do you remember about that? Come on,, it was a very similar memory, but I wasn't stressed out as a graduate clinician. I was, I got to come in as the patient. So maybe that's why I was so happy. I wasn't under the pressure. I wasn't under the pressure that you were under that day, but I do remember the same feeling once you.
[00:10:01] Introduced yourself. And you shared with me that you wear hearing aids, and I think you might've been using a Comtec FM system that day with a microphone on. And I think he actually had me use it so that you could hear me better. And I remember thinking the same thing. Here's this beautiful blonde who was in graduate school.
[00:10:29] With hearing aids like me studying to be an audiologist. And it was this kind of, I guess, turn, you know, my eyes were open with that because like you said, I did not know anybody else with hearing loss going through school. And I went to a mainstream school and similar to you, the only other person that I knew with hearing loss happened to be, um, someone that I played basketball with and she was, um, her whole family was deaf.
[00:11:09] So she grew up with a, an ASL background and was they fluent in sign language. So I wasn't able to connect in the same way with her. Um, as I, when I saw you, and I always say you're my, my HEAR-O, because it was almost a pivot point in my life where. I realized I'm not the only one. I there's someone besides my grandfather that wears hearing aids and my age, and it really was eye-opening to me.
[00:11:47] And. Um, motivational to me to see that I wasn't the only one. And so you gave me so much hope and finding, and I don't think at that point in time, I had chosen a major yet. So to kind of planting a seed, yes, you were planting, you were another person that planted that seed of going into the field of audiology.
[00:12:15] I think a lot of people say, how can someone with a hearing loss go into audiology? And I know we both have had people say that to us. And so we broke that barrier. We overcame that in a positive way. So yes, I think we both had this same. Story from a different angle of how we met. And it's quite amazing that we were both the first person that we met with hearing loss.
[00:12:51] Yeah. Yeah. And, and I can honestly tell you, it was one of the most memorable days. Um, most memorable feelings that I've had in my life. It was just. You, know, it's just so nice to meet someone like you, you know? And, um, and I was just, it really, really gave me hope. And the motivation to go forward in my studies as well.
[00:13:23] So thank you, Kevin. Well, thank you, Karen. And it's so amazing that we can continue to be so connected, which is best and good friends where you're like my little sister and spirit. And professions. So thank you so much for being my HEAR-O, Carrie. I so appreciate it. You're gonna make me cry tonight,
[00:13:57] but I think like you said, we have a similar audiogram and we have. I think a similar upbringing too, but I would love for you to share with all of our listeners, a little about your childhood journey, and growing up with hearing loss. And I'm sure we can both interject a little bit as you share your story with us.
[00:14:24] So yeah. Share a little bit about your childhood. My mom said that I had a very tenuous start to life, or what does that mean? At the time of my birth? My mother had complete placenta previa, which is when. The placenta is born first and the baby follows. So by that time, I, by the time I arrived, I wasn't breathing and had aspirated a lot of fluid when they were able to revive me.
[00:14:58] They also saw that I was a really sick baby. And so I had. As a systemic infection likely because my mother had toxemia during her pregnancy. And so the doctors told my mom right off the bat, you know, we don't think your daughter is going to last through the night they did but I did. And when I, it was discharged from the hospital, the doctors told me or told my mother not told me, but they told my mother that she would need to make sure that my vision.
[00:15:33] Was okay. And because of all of that oxygen loss and they didn't however, mention anything about the gentamycin that they gave me to heal the systemic infection that I had. And so, and you know, that gentamycin is ototoxic and has the potential to cause hearing loss. Um, Fast forward as I was growing up, my mother's saw that there was nothing wrong with my vision.
[00:16:06] But she did wonder whether I was hearing well. And that was when I was around 16 months of age. Now she's a music teacher. She played the piano all the time and she noticed that when she was playing the piano and the lower end. Um, which had all the base-type notes. She noticed that I was very responsive that I would move towards the music and even turn to the piano.
[00:16:34] But whenever she played in higher keys, I would just walk away or I would look like I wasn't interested at all. And so that was. Really worried her. And so she took me to the doctor many times and he would clap his hands and I would hear him and he would say, Oh, there's nothing wrong with her, her hearing.
[00:16:57] Um, fast-forward through many more visits. Uh, and then, um, the sudden three years in 11 months of age, and I still wasn't talking, I wasn't responding appropriately to language and. So at this point, my mother took me to the doctor and she refused to leave the office until he had called the local hospital and got me in to see an audiologist.
[00:17:27] And later on that day, they discovered that I had a mild hearing loss at 250 Hertz. For those of you who really liked numbers, which sloped down to a profound hearing loss at a thousand Hertz. So, uh, you know, my mother was very, luckily, she was very persistent and very aggressive, um, advocating for me right from the start.
[00:17:56] And if you want her to do something, you just tell her she can't do it. And then she will do everything she can to prove you wrong. And thank God. Bless my mother. So when the ENT told my mother that I would never learn to talk or even benefit from hearing aids, she's like, I don't care. You're going to have put behind the ear hearing aids on her and
[00:18:27] . this was the year that the really powerful behind-the-ear hearing aids came on the market for the first time I was able to avoid the body aids and, and, uh, so she got the hearing aids on as quickly as she could. And what was interesting was, and that was when I was four. That was the first time I remember seeing color.
[00:18:55] Hmm. When they put the hearing aids on and they turned it on. Um, I remember the pin from the new ear mold sticking in, you know, how an shove it in your ear. And then the room study glow, the golden yellow color. And it was, it was just, um, Crazy because before then my life was like a black and white motion picture, um, that jiggled and, you know, darted and flows.
[00:19:34] And as I learned too, as I gained listening experience with the hearing aids, the world became more and more colorful. So for me, sound islike color, you know, I don't know what that's like for you. Do you remember getting your hearing aids when you were four when you were young? I do. And I could probably just say that your story is an exact mirror of my story.
[00:20:04] No, it really is. So again, like, just like your mom, um, the placenta broke away too soon, which caused lack of oxygen. And so I was born, my APGAR scores were like zero and two. Oh my gosh. Really? And they, again told my mom, you know, you need to look for all of these kind of developmental delays. However, they never mentioned hearing loss.
[00:20:37] And my mom, she was a teacher and. She would take me to three, I think she said three or four different pediatricians who clapped their hands. And because of that good low- frequency hearing, we hear that. So we would turn and they would say, Hey, you're over-protective go home. She's a late bloomer. She'll catch up.
[00:21:05] And it was right around the age of four when I wasn't talking. Or no one could understand what I was saying. I was talking, but I wasn't understand. And that was the first time that I was tested. By an audiologist at that point in time. And I was fit with my first pair of hearing aids at the age of four.
[00:21:30] And I think my first hearing memory was actually my footsteps in the hall. So I didn't know we were walking down a tile or whatever hallway and hearing. My footsteps for the first time was kind of my hearing moment to hearing memory after that. So yes, a very similar story with that lack of oxygen and having that ski slope.
[00:22:02] Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Mine.wasn’t as pretty as yours. It's about the footsteps
[00:22:11] analogy of the colors, right? That it from the black and white are kind of that static too. Putting technology and, and I'm sure you could say now your color, your world of color is much more vibrant than it was at the age of boys because of technology. Sure. Along with the raindrops and the plastic caps that they put on you, that crinkling noise, you know, that's, that's what I heard the first.
[00:22:39] And then my mother put me on the subway and I don't remember that, but she died. Because I screamed because I had never heard that sound. Right. Um, but you know, that night I was in a Baton rehearsal.
[00:23:00] And, you know, I followed everybody out when the music was playing and the first song was raindrops falling on my head.
[00:23:09] And, uh, when the song came on and everybody started dancing, I just stood there ion ah, looking around like, what is that sound like? What is that music? And, and like, you know, even though I had heard it before, it wasn't. In the richness that I heard it with, the hearing aids, you know, what I'm talking about.
[00:23:31] And, uh, the mothers were crying in the audience because I was just like, you know, so happy and so excited, you know, because it was just so much better, so much richer and, and even the voice of him singing was so much easier to hear and more pleasant. To listen to. So yeah, it's crazy that have almost, we are definitely hearing sisters for sure.
[00:24:10] So kind of moving into, then my next question would be growing up. Did you have any challenges that you felt Really stood out as, as a child at the only one going to through school with having a hearing loss. Well, um, I think, I mean, this is, this is like a two-part question because, you know, we talk about challenges and, you know, I think the challenge for me that was most pertinent in the school years was fear.
[00:24:57] And it wasn't my fear. It was everybody else's fears, fears about what to do with Karen. Or that kid that just came into your class, who has those funny looking things coming out of her ears, and that she wearing on her body. And because they don't, because nobody tells them what that thing is. It and everybody fears the unknown.
[00:25:25] Right. Um, uh, a lot of kids closed any doors of opportunities for friendship. Towards me. And so that is what made it very difficult for me to make friends now, back in the seventies when I was going to school. And, um, we just, before I was diagnosed, the, the, the, the rule was any kid with any severe to profound hearing has had to go for a school for the deaf, a special school in Toronto.
[00:26:03] And my mother had found out about an experimental program in the Toronto district school board that was driven by the new director of the deaf, deaf and hard of hearing program and phonic ear. Now phonic ears you may know was one of the first companies, if not the first company to develop an assisted listening device.
[00:26:30] So it's not a hearing like a device, like a hearing aid. It was a device that is worn, um, today with your hearing, aids. And so we wore that in school and, um, What they wanted to see was can they put children with severe to profound hearing loss Into the local schools into a regular classroom. And can they succeed academically if they were the phonic ear system and the teacher wears the transmitter, and then they would have a teacher of the deaf, come into the school three times a week to make sure that always making, um, all was going well in terms of listening and spoken language development and academic.
[00:27:23] Uh, work as well. And so I was one of 50 kids in Toronto that got into this program and it worked so well that now inclusion of children with any degree of hearing loss across Ontario, Canada, um, it became a rule rather than the exception. So, um, with this new person, You know, who has all these devices? It was really difficult for me to make friends in school.
[00:27:52] Um, not only because I looked different, but I sounded different as well. I was so delayed in my spoken communication skills, um, that. I did manage to have one or two friends during kindergarten to grade four. And that would be nice. And, but in grade three, I slowly began to realize that the kids only paid attention to me.
[00:28:18] If I had something to give to them and something that was cool for them to see like a camera or something, then I moved to the Western part of Canada in Calgary. Alberta. And that was my happiest time socially because the kids out there were so amazing. They were so friendly and the teacher kind of prepped them beforehand that, you know, I'm just a girl who has.
[00:28:48] A little trouble hearing. And she wears this phonic year. She wears hearing aids Those are just extra things, it's fashion, but this is Karen lets welcome her to the class and that made such a difference. Um, and so I was, I made friends really quickly and, you know, we had independence and learn social skills with a gifted teacher.
[00:29:15] I, it was. It was a magical year that showed me and my mom, what could be accomplished when you have a gifted teacher and good kids, good friends in the class. Um, then I returned to Toronto the next year and, um, left my happy place. And there in, in Toronto, the kids were. Not so nice to me. In grade six to grade eight, they bullied me or they excluded me.
[00:29:46] They wrote mean notes for me to read notes that, that, that I was deaf and dumb or what I should do with my life. Um, Jump off a bridge pictures of me with wires coming out of my ears and I had the Farrah Fawcett hairstyle back then. That was the only thing they got. Right. And, um, but you know, I had to learn to yeah.
[00:30:14] Use these notes in a reverse psychology manner. So I have a challenge. Daring in front of me, which is the fear of the unknown kids don't know what's going on with me. And, but they don't like what they see. And they're afraid that if they make friends with me, they're going to have, uh, they're going to start having trouble with their hearing.
[00:30:36] Right. Um, they just didn't like it. And so what I had to do was take the fear and reverse it. And make it something good, make it something educational or show them that what they were doing to me was not having the intended. Effect. So I would just put all the notes together on a big poster, presented it in a show and tell fashion during my lunch hour with my classmates and teachers and thanked all the kids in the class for loving and caring about me so much that they would write and draw these pictures during school time.
[00:31:18] And. You know, the teacher was so delighted, but then when she saw the, the poster, her face just fell and she said, you know what, Karen? She says, that is really nice of you. Um, she says, you know, why don't you go and show the teacher, uh, show the principal. Ah, the beautiful picture that use that, that you put on your bedroom wall so that you can wake up every morning and know and see how much the kids in your class love you.
[00:31:50] Cause that's how I presented it. You know, you guys love me so much that you do this and. You know, and, um, so that after that day, um, the bullying and exclude, well, the bullying stopped, but the exclusion didn't. And so, you know, high school was much better, but because just because the kids were much nicer, I don't know what it was, but the kids were nicer there.
[00:32:20] And because I had suffered from that meanness. That I got in middle school. I had put up a wall and I excluded myself. From certain people, you know, the popular kids thinking that they would be cruel to me and not with my time, which was a shame because they weren't cruel. They were really nice.
[00:32:48] And they really did try to reach out to me to become friends with me, but I rejected them. I just walked away from them and that was a missed opportunity. And it's such a shame. [00:33:00] And so. I learned lessons. Um, as I grew older and more mature, I became more and more aware of the good, uh, in the world, the good in people.
[00:33:14] And that it's not always about me, how people react to me. It's not always about me and my hearing loss. It's about being it's about them. It's about their experiences. It's about their feelings and. And the importance of me being a good friend in a kind of push into whoever I meet in this world. So that's the biggest challenge I think, is a fear that everybody else has.
[00:33:41] And you just have to learn how to deal with it in a positive and educational manner. Yeah, I am so impressed that at that age, you were able to put that poster together and present it that way.
[00:34:00] That shows a lot of courage and almost this intuition that you had in order to kind of make it positive, positive in a way that, but I don't know that that took a lot in order to kind of come up with that, but I didn't come up with that on my own.
[00:34:21] I came up with that, um, idea because of my parents. And I think this is another thing that I tell parents on my caseload. You know, your children learn how to feel about hearing loss by looking at you. Looking at your eyes, what's in your eyes. When you look at the child with the hearing loss and they learn about themselves by seeing themselves in, in their parents' eyes and my father and my mother.
[00:35:02] We were so proud. They were so confident. They also knew a lot more about reverse psychology and how to handle people much more than I did. So they sat me down. They had these conversations with me and they explained to me that it wasn't all about me. It could have been other things and, you know, um, And how other kids were feeling at the end of the day, when they would go home after spending a day, teasing me and these kids felt badly.
[00:35:37] You know, my mother knew that because their parents would tell my mother that, so it's, it's not easy being a kid these days. And I think by having parents who. Accepted me for who I was and felt really good about what I was able to achieve, what your child is able to achieve. You teach your children how to respond in difficult situations like that.
[00:36:08] That's how you, that's why you need mentors. That's why you need your parents. That's why you need friends. is to Kind of step back and kind of grow your awareness in the world so that you can learn how to better deal with the challenges that come your way. Yeah, it's such a good point. Cause I, I love to teach, uh, even preschoolers about just that beginning, you know, words and, and, um, talk about their technology and about their hearing loss in a preschool way.
[00:36:46] And it's a foundation that keeps building and if they have the knowledge about their own self and their own hearing loss, and they're more. Likely to share it when others are curious [00:37:00] about what are those things on your ears? So why is that light blinking or why does the teacher need to use the microphone?
[00:37:08] They have the words to do it and they practiced it. But when it comes at you unexpectedly, it's really hard to, to respond without on the fly. So having those practice moments are so important. Yeah. Yeah. And like it, you know, and my worry is that, you know, a lot of kids go through these experiences and they don't share these challenges with their parents.
[00:37:37] They don't talk about it at home, um, for whatever reason. And it's not the
parent's fault. It's just, you know, it's just the way it is. And it's these kids that I worry the
most about. Is, you know, we don't know what's going on with them. And so, um, that's one of the reasons why my mother, uh, was a librarian and I thought she was a librarian because she was a librarian and that was her job, NO. the assistant to the librarian, because she wanted to keep an eye on what was going on in school.
[00:38:14] And, you know, she smashed down those roadblocks. If they came up from the teacher's side of things, which they did, I learned much later on when I was in university, my mother told me then where all the stuff that she had to do. But, um, you know, it's, it's just, I tell parents, just talk to your kids, talk about, you know, feelings and get them, um, to.
[00:38:45] Together with other kids who are like them. And more importantly, older people who have gone through it, you know, and so that they can share and feel comfortable sharing that stuff because that's usually when the kids started talking. I dunno. Is that what you say? I do. I feel like they need to know that they're not the only one and most of our kids.
[00:39:12] are mainstream now because of early identification and early intervention and technology that is available to them. They end up being the one and only at a school. And so they are in those situations where they're bullied or. People are curious about it, or they don't know how to respond. And I think getting them together with whether it's a mentor that's older than them, that has been through it or others who are around the same age and you bring up those situations with each other, they can talk it out.
[00:39:54] And even if they haven't been in that situation, they might be in that situation in the future. And they'll. Be better equipped to deal with that. So it sounds like a lot of your challenges throughout school really became a strength for you in life. Do you feel, feel that way? I think so. I think so. Um, I never forgot what my parents told me when about this poster.
[00:40:29] The, the notes and the bullying and all of this. Um, you know, I am such a fan when I was growing up. I was such a fan of, um, learning from survivors. Of any situation from disasters to mountain climbing or, um, even Holocaust survivors. And there was one lady, uh, Dr. Edith, Eva Agger. I think that's how her name is pronounced.
[00:41:04] I don't know. But, um, she was, she was just, I saw her, I was reading books that she wrote and I saw her giving a Ted talk on grieving feeling and healing. And she said, and I quote, there's a lot of potential that hides in the dark shadows of life and she's still right. And hearing loss brings. About a lot of dark challenges from time to time.
[00:41:36] Um, it can also be rosy too, but if you look carefully, you can find the potential there in the darkness and you bring the light in there. And that's why I tell the parents, you know, you really need to be, you need to let your kids figure out. Where that potential is. And if they can't find it on their own, then you bring the light in there and you kind of lead them to it.
[00:42:05] And like, like I said, you know, their eyes reflect the strength, the confidence, the joy, and pride in the confidence. And because of this, if they see this, then they will feel that way about their hearing loss and they will bring that light to it, I guess. So out of that, I learned to become a better listener, not to listen, to learn or to listen, to communicate, but to listen in such a way where I can understand the underlying messages, the underlying meaning in the messages that I'm listening to.
[00:42:51] And. And then respond appropriately or probe to find out more about why that roadblock is there. For example, when I was, I really wanted to be an audiologist. I knew I wanted to be an audiologist since I was 11 years of age. And so it took me a journey, but I. A while to get there. But I got into a university and undergraduate program in communication disorders in, in the states.
[00:43:25] I'm not going to say where. And, um, so when I got in, they, the, the chairperson of the program came to me and she said, you know, Karen, she said, I'm really not comfortable with you being in this program. And I said why? And she said, well, because you need to pass a speech and hearing. hearing tests and you don't.
[00:43:51] And I said, yeah, I know. And I'm like, okay. Um, I said, what, what, what is the concern? You know? And it was like, in me, fumbling, this anger I've, you know, she's just discriminating against me. Like, why is she stopping me? You know? And I could
have lashed out in anger and told her some. Choice things. But, you know, I had to say calm down, Karen, this is a challenge.
[00:44:25] You've done these challenges before, figure out what the fear is. And her fear as she expressed it to me was very different than what I assumed her fear was, which was, she doesn't want me in the program because I'm deaf. No. She said to me, Karen, I'm afraid that, you know, it takes you four years of undergraduate work in this program to you have to graduate and get your bachelor's degree, but you're not an audiologist yet you have to apply for graduate school and I'm afraid that none of the audiology graduate school programs will accept you.
[00:45:15] Because you have a hearing loss. Oh. And she says, I just don't want you to waste your time. And I said, that makes complete sense. And I could have gotten angry and said, well, I know this audiologist who has hearing, had hearing loss, Mark Ross, and you know, if he could do it, then I could do it. And then blah blah blah,, but no, you know, kind positive.
[00:45:44] Listen to the fear and address it. And I said, well, how about this is where negotiation skills come in? How about if I meet with five different audiology graduate
[00:46:00] school programs, and I ask them, I go and visit them. And I talked to the chair, the, the, the, the head of the program and I stay. Here. I look at my marks, which means you have to let me take these courses just for one semester.
[00:46:15] And I said, let me take the course for one semester and let me get the grades. And then I can talk to the head of the program and see if so, if he will accept me, even though I have a hearing loss, I said, would that work for you? And she says, that would be perfect. Perfect. She says, that's great. She says, I feel so much better.
[00:46:39] We have a plan and. Yes, welcome to the program. And then I thought, Oh my God, I gotta call my mom. my mom knows what to do. I didn't know what to do. Um, but. That's exactly what we did. And I showed up at one in the audiology graduate programs and, and the, the head of the of the undergraduate program wrote him a letter about me.
[00:47:10] And, uh, when I showed up, he introduced himself and he had an interpreter to his side. Um, Hello. My name is Dr. So-and-so and the interpreter was signing. And I was looking at the interpreter lately. I'm like, hello, you know, and looking at him. And I said, ah, hello? I said, thank you so much for taking the time to meet with me.
[00:47:35] And my mother today and his face just dropped and the interpreter just kind of started fading,
[00:47:45] i couldn’t understand sign language that doesn't matter. But I was so impressed with his, um, with his, uh, thoughtfulness to arrange accommodation for me, you know, like [00:48:00] what a nice guy to do that. And he said, He said, you know, you don't need the interpreter. And I said, no, I'm sorry. And he says, you don't know, sign language.
[00:48:09] And I said, no, but I could learn if that, if that was the one that takes to get out,
[00:48:18] he, he, he just, you know, took me in the office and he said, girl, he said, let me see your transcript. I gave him my transcript and he says, y'all have no problems getting in, but you know, there's another program with Dr. Carol Flexer at the university of Akron, Ohio. And I said, yes. I said, that's where I want to go.
[00:48:38] Because my, my audiologist in Toronto graduated from Kent state university and he knows Carol Flexer and he says, she's, she's all that, you know. And he said, Oh, I hate to agree with him on that one. He says, I would love to have you in my program, but he says, she is really cool. You want to go see her? And I'm like, you know, after that it was, it made me feel so great.
[00:49:09] You know, because even though I kind of had that little nugget of fear today, I was worried about how the audiology program would respond to my application. But I wasn't anymore because this guy said, girl, you keep your grades like this, you’ll get ain't no problem. And you can go anywhere you want. Don't worry about your hearing loss.
[00:49:33] And so it made not only me feel about it, but it made. The, the, the chair of my undergraduate program feels so much better. And by that time she was like, yeah. Oh yeah, you you're yeah, yeah. You're rocking it. And so that's how, that's, what I learned from my hearing loss is just, you know, even though you have a hearing loss, it doesn't mean that you can't listen [00:50:00] and be patient, kind, positive.
[00:50:04] And just respond in an I can manner rather than an I can't. So I guess that's what I learned from there. No, that, that is amazing. And I had a similar experience to an undergrad where I was in the program and the chair of the department. And I think the clinic director. Had called me into their office and said the same thing to me and said, I don't think someone with hearing loss is going to be able to progress through the program and the same kind of fear they had.
[00:50:48] I don't know if you're going to be able to get into grad school. And if anyone walks up to you. And then they saw my marks and my grades and they were like, well, we'll give you, we'll give it a try. Yeah. Yeah. And then after that, they were more willing to work with me. And I think they realized, Oh, someone who has hearing loss brings a whole another perspective to the field of audiology that we didn't realize.
[00:51:23] I guess I shouldn't say existed, but they hadn't had anybody going through this undergraduate program with hearing loss. And so they were, I think, pleasantly surprised that I could bring this other perspective and relate so much differently with an empathy for those who actually were coming through the clinic, which kind of.
[00:51:51] This is my next question for you. Do you feel, I know you wanted to be an audiologist at 11 and you pursued that you went to graduate school. We both were trained by Dr. Carol Flexer, which is, was a highlight of my graduate. Program I'm still connected to her today, but do you feel like your journey living with hearing loss impacts what you do now?
[00:52:23] Everything that you do now?
[00:52:28] I think so. And, and I, I hesitate to answer this question because it almost sounds, um, uh, Oh, lucky me, you know, I got a hearing loss and I'm so much better than everybody. That is not the way to, that's not what I want to convey. And I think everybody has so much to offer in this field. Um, but you know, when it comes to having a hearing loss, I think.
[00:53:05] Well, I mean, initially I was worried, um, that I wouldn't be able to do my job, you know, that was my first and foremost concern. And the only part of my job that I was worried that I would have trouble with was. Uh, the speech discrimination testing that we. Right. Um, you know, am I going to hear my client's response as correct or incorrect, or, you know, I was worried about scoring them higher than they deserved.
[00:53:37] Right. Um, but you know, I, I, again, it was a fear and it was, I addressed it with my professor and we learned that. You know, if you know, we can get the client to write down the responses, we can get the client to wear a Comtec Transmitter at that time. Um, and you know, and it actually turned out to be a brilliant counseling tool.
[00:54:11] Because what I would do is when I was working in Toronto or I was working in an occupational health clinic, but it was open in the evening for kids, um, who were attending speech therapy in a local clinic. And, uh, so they would all come to me in the evening. I came, I came to become. I came to be known as the deaf audiologist,
[00:54:42] right. Talking about anyway. Um, what I would do is because these kids were referred by speech-language pathologist. I thought I'm going to use my tool, which is I want the parents to write down what their kids said. Hmm. So, um, I would have the parent go into the booth with their child and they would sit in the corner and they would hear all the words that would come through the speaker and they would write down what their kids said.
[00:55:16] And so with the parents sitting next to me at the audiometer, and so as I saw them writing out the responses, I was like, And then testing their hearing. It would either be normal or there would be a mild hearing loss due to, or otitis media like a new infection with fluid. Um, then I would say to them, you know, I said, see how they missed this word it's because they have trouble hearing this particular sound.
[00:55:45] Which is right here on that audiogram. And that's why he hears it this way. And that's why they're saying it in a parent would be like, Oh my gosh, that's amazing. And then halfway through the word, um, list I would switch parents. One parent and we're going to the booth and they continue with the written responses to help me score the kid.
[00:56:10] And the parents loved it. They felt involved in the process. So this is an example of me taking a challenge, a physical challenge that my hearing loss would present in my job and using a tool that I would use to overcome that challenge as a tool to help parents learn. About the impact of hearing loss on their child, understanding what they hear and how they produce the sounds in words.
[00:56:40] And so that was one, um, advantage that I could make out of the hearing loss.
That was out of necessity. And that is thanks to Carol Flexer because she, you know, how she was training us so much about speech acoustics and, you know, pediatric audiology and making predictions about what they might be hearing after playing with them in the waiting room.
[00:57:07] Like she is one of the most brilliant pediatric audiologists I've ever had the opportunity to observe and to learn from. Um, and so, um, so, and then through the auditory-verbal therapy, I think my experience with auditory, verbal therapy and learning and training to provide it has also helped me and writing recommendations to speech-language pathologists.
[00:57:37] Because if you have a child who had better hearing in the left ear, And in right then I would say, make sure you sit on the left side and Oh, when you're having trouble getting that “S” just elongate the “s”, the end of the word, because it makes it more acoustically salient, and just leaning down because you lean a little bit closer to the hearing technology, add a few more DB and these SLPs are like, Oh, my gosh.
[00:58:03] I asked them and you know, so it got to the point where, you know, the speech-language pathologist were giving me referrals and they were saying, make sure that you ask for the deaf audiologist, know so much about it. And then, I mean, because those are tips that not only did I learn in school, but.
[00:58:28] They helped me when I was learning to grow up, but my hearing loss. And then I guess the other way that my hearing loss helped a lot was me getting a cochlear implant in 2009. Uh, not only did I get a cochlear implant that worked, but it was a lemon. And it didn't work as well as it could have, but despite the fact that it's still like, Oh my gosh, even with an implant that failed, I still heard so much better than I did with the hearing aids are so much easier.
[00:59:05] It was so much less. effort in listening and that appreciation. Um, and the fact that I had to aggressively advocate for myself, get the programming that I needed done because after one year of wearing that implant, I had about 130 maps. Oh, wow. That's a lot that is a lot. So have like six at the most, in their first year of listening.
[00:59:35] Right. And, uh, so anyway, um, you know, getting that implant had an impact, in my practice because I learned what the process is, what it sounds like I have an implant and, uh, so it, it helped me in my work with older children, teenagers, and adults who get what we call auditory skills training. And it's an auditory-based training as a type of family-centered auditory-based.
[01:00:05] Or we have rehab individualized for children in older, who are older than sets that, you know, a child who's 96 years old, they would qualify and, you know, AST and, um, uh, the experience that I had getting. The implant activated and hearing sound or speech as it's completely unrecognizable. You, you remember that?
[01:00:39] And it sounded robotic. It sounded monotone and it had clicks and whistles, and I'm just thinking, Oh my, this is awful. This is a mistake. And I'm like, the professional in me had gone. And, um, there's the personal me. Who's sitting there going through it, but I learned that as I. Gradually as the minutes ticked into hours and hours into days.
[01:01:10] My brain gradually began to adjust to the electrically evoked signals that my implant was providing. And unrecognizable speech was gradually morphing into more
natural sounding speech. And that was easier to hear and understand. And so this is the process that everybody goes through, um, to, to varying degrees.
[01:01:33] And I called this adoptation period, the auditory brain change process, or the ABC.process. And this process can last some, three to six months, and this is when the patients have the most trouble. And it's very, and you have to walk them through that process and you have to say, Oh, that's a great error. Yes, that's normal.
[01:01:54] And you can say it with confidence. So I think it gives me more confidence as a clinician as to being able to respond to their clients and what they hear as, okay. This is okay. Oh, this is not okay. We need to get this addressed. Um, I have much more confidence, so I think that's what my hearing loss has brought into my practices.
[01:02:18] The confidence in knowing that. I kind of do know what I'm doing and you've lived it too. So that's yeah. Yes. Now I'm so glad you brought up yet. The auditory, what is it? Auditory skills, skills training, or AST yeah. And it is so critical for, our, Teens who are getting cochlear implants later and adults who are getting cochlear implants later, that they need to have this period of time for training and coaching, or they're not going to maybe accept this new signal coming into their brain.
[01:03:09] Yeah. Because it is a lot different when you first are activated and trying to get used to a whole new world of sound that I had the same reaction you did. Well, wait, did I do the right thing? Because this does not sound good at all. And now with training and coaching, When I put my implant on it sounds what I feel like normal again.
[01:03:40] Yeah. And, and that's, that's the point that, I mean, a lot of people, there's a lot of auditory simulations of what the implant would sound like on, on the internet drives me crazy because yeah, it does sound something. It sounds something like that in the initial stages, but that's just the process that the brain is going.
[01:04:03] Wow. W w w what is this electrically book signal what's going on here? Like panic for your own alarm alarm, you know? Woo hoo. That's why it sounds so bad at first, it's just the brain freaking out. And then when you tell the brain, I tell my clients, you know, just talk to your brain, just tell them it's okay.
[01:04:27] These are good things to hear. It's going to get better. The light is at the end of the tunnel. It's such a good job brain. And then the brain will change the signal. You're not getting used to a bad signal that you hear on the internet. The brain is morphing it into something that sounds beautiful and natural.
[01:04:50] I mean, yes. Okay. There are some limitations to some degree, but gosh, it sounds pretty dang good. And we have such a similar hearing journey with everything that I was afraid at first, because I'm obviously was born with hearing loss and get an implant. A year ago, what my brain would do with that. And it is quite amazing how it
adjusts with the training and the appropriate mapping and the perseverance to keep going forward and wearing it all the time.
[01:05:27] Yeah. Yeah. And I find it really rewarding because, um, you know, the first three months are the most difficult for so many people and in order for them to continue wearing a device, They have to see some benefit to it. And in that ABC process, they don't see any benefit at all. And, but they know they have to keep wearing it and they rely on, um, computer assisted, um, auditory training program.
[01:06:01] They are not bad. They are wonderful, but. Sometimes it's difficult for the user to get to the right level in these programs because it's so generic and they really want to talk about sound quality. This sounds awful, is it right? You know, and they want to make sure they're using their devices. Right. And they want to have success.
[01:06:26] And that is what, um, Your clinician did. May I say her name? Dr. Denise Wray? What she did. She sat you up in her. You're such and worth her. She created, um, a successful listening experience for you because she knew. How to create it. She knew just what to do, and that makes you feel so much better and so much more positive.
[01:06:57] And, and it helps you to comply better with the implant use. Because honestly, if I did not have that therapy, if I did not have one Warren Estabooks with me in Germany? When I got activated, I would have gone back to the hotel room. Locked myself up in the room, taking the thing off. I couldn't do that because he was there.
[01:07:25] And when I was able to work with him and see, and hear the change that my brain was going to speech down slowly, slowly, better and better and better, the more success I was having, I was like, okay, I'm going to give this thing a shot, you know? Good job, Warren. You wanted to say something there? No, I just, I agree.
[01:07:51] A hundred percent. It's like we needed those success coaches in our life who knew that auditory development as well, to see the little steps that you were
taking, even though as a person you were like, I don't think I'm getting any better with this. And. Denise Dr. Denise Wray is able to sit back and say, look from last week to this week, you have improved this much.
[01:08:21] And so the little successes along the way motivated me to want to get better. Yeah, exactly. And that's what it is. Plus we helped the audiologist out with the programming case. Um, cause we know the numbers change speech acoustics too, but it's all about a supportive network and the therapy looks so much like AVT.
[01:08:48] It's supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be conversational and you've got your spouse or your listening partner involved and they learn how to create those positive listening
[01:09:00] experiences too. So that's why I'm really excited about auditory skills training and it's something that we need to do more because did you know that 30% of implant recipients are children?
[01:09:18] 70% are adults, but they are not getting any therapy or very little. And so we need to change that. I think so, too. So, but before we log off and I, I wanted. To also have you just give a little plug about Sound Intuition, because I know I had the pleasure to come up to Canada and be part of your amazing conferences that you are able to share with Canada and the US and the world.
[01:09:57] But can you just give us a little plug about Sound Intuition and I can definitely link everything to the show notes today, too. Yeah, you're very sweet. Thank you. I'd be happy to do that. Uh, Sound Intuition is a company that provides, um, we're supposed to be providing online learning experiences and we've been able to do that.
[01:10:20] Um, Particularly in the last year because of the pandemic. Right. But for many, many years, Sound Intuition has been having conferences in Toronto, Canada, uh, day-long conferences on anything to do with childhood hearing loss and therapy, um, to help them to become the very best listeners and talkers and. Uh, academic scholars and school.
[01:10:48] And, um, so we have a conference in the spring and a conference in the fall. They, I usually, um, approved at that they're all approved
[01:11:00] by for AG bell CEUs. And, um, Uh, we also have, um, a lot of training programs face-to-face or online training program to the very intense in auditory-verbal therapy and, and auditory skills training.
[01:11:20] And so Sound Intuition has a certification program for clinicians. We want to learn how to provide auditory skills training. And so we provide level one level, two-level three, uh, certification programs and training programs for that. And, uh, it's been life-altering. It's it's been so fantastic. We've had, um, Uh, trainers or professionals from Canada, the United States, Spain, Portugal, and Denmark.
[01:11:57] And, uh, recently in the Western part of Canada where they work with the indigenous population. Um, very excited about that as well. So I'm so proud of these clinicians who are going through the Training process and, um, getting certified and becoming one at some of the most talented clinicians I've ever seen in the world.
[01:12:22] So that's what we do. And, uh, if you want to learn more about Sound Intuition, you can go to www.soundintuition.com and sign up to be on the mailing list. And we also have a page on Facebook as well. So reach out to us if you want to learn more about what, what it is that we do, and I'm all about showing you what we can do.
[01:12:49] Well, we would definitely put the link in the show notes today. So any listener can just click on and find out more about Sound Intuition as well. But Karen, I just want to say thank you so much for one being my HEAR-O and you have been my HEAR-O for so long in my life. And, and I am so blessed that we can stay connected after all of these years, because it's been.
[01:13:18] I spend a lot of years actually, if we kind of count them up. So, but we're not going to share that today because we're just getting younger, not older, but I really
appreciate you coming on to the podcast today. It has been such an amazing Conversation. And how many, uh, how, uh, paths really are so similar.
[01:13:44] I know we've talked about it before, but every time we talk about it, I think we find out something more similar about our lives. That's true. But yeah. So thank you so much for being part of this tonight
[01:14:00] and thank you so much for having me. As part of your evening and, and podcast, it was such a pleasure.
[01:14:08] So thank you so much for having me. I was part of your podcast today. I, I appreciate it. And thank you listeners for listening. Don't forget to subscribe. So you don't miss an episode. This has been a production of the 3C Digital Media Network